LGBTQ Baha'i Experience Q and A, June 2022
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- As we post more and more content on our page we are finding that many people are reaching out and asking questions about the Faith and in this video we tackle some of the first ones we have received.
Sean, you are a jewel among Baha'is. Thank you so much for being you. We have much to learn about real acceptance. You are contributing so much to that understanding. Prayers, love, respect and success to you and your loved ones.
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Thank you so much, Sean! This video, along with the previous interview with Dan and Alexis Ware, will give so much hope and compassion to LGBTQ+ Baha's who are feeling marginalized in their own communities. We are not living in the 1800's, when scientific evidence was so severely lacking on gender differences and sexual orientation. In order for humanity to truly advance, people of faith in every religion must recognize archaic systems of injustice and stop justifications for oppression based on biological diversity. If the Baha'i Faith really wants to promote the ideal of "one family" then recognition, full acceptance, and love for all our LGBTQ+ family members around the world is urgently necessary. Former Bahai's I know, including myself, have left the Faith in solidarity over the mistreatment of LGBTQ+ Bahai's. I truly believe hearts and minds can change if the UHJ, NSA's, LSA's and individual Baha's are listening to the lived experiences expressed here. Thank you again, Sean -- please keep up this incredibly important work!
Unfortunately, they won't. The Baha'i "Administrative Order" is designed to be inflexible on certain issues. This is what makes the faith so "united" (regimented.) I really, really love and appreciate progressive Bahai's who are trying to "change the system from within", but if I am being completely honest, I think they are wasting their precious time on an organization that doesn't care about them.
That's not meant to be a slight against them. My whole point is that they are BETTER than this organization could ever hope to be, and it doesn't deserve these people. They don't owe it a damn thing, and that includes its source, Baha'u'llah, as well.
I am not entirely convinced that the Aqdas quote only forbids pederasty and not homosexuality, but even I accept that line for argument's sake, Baha'u'llah had a LOT of authoritarian tendencies within his teachings that don't match up with the progressive attitudes that tend to coincide with acceptance of LGBTQ people. So even if Shoghi Effendi "mistranslated" the quote (which I'm not totally convinced that he did), Bahai's are trained to look upon with suspicion on any type of relationship that isn't conservative on the surface.
In order to really change that, you would have to change the faith entirely, but then it wouldn't be the faith anymore. The sad reality is that the fundamentalists are right about the teachings of the faith, but that doesn't make those ideas good.
The way the faith is structured, it makes change impossible unless it gets clear permission from the UHJ, but the UHJ "can't do anything" because the previous edicts set in motion bind them to said edicts, whether they agree with them or not (and we know that they do agree)....so I don't know what else to say but "good luck", although I think you could be MUCH happier living your life without having the burden of trying to reform an organization that was intentionally structured to not be reformed by the will of the people, but only through the means of conservative men who essentially live in a commune like setting, separated from the Baha'i world community, and who are also infallible. That's a tall order! But I salute you for trying!
Jill you are so welcome , this is my ultimate Service Project, it's a labor of love , and yes it can often times weigh very heavy on me as you can see by this video , it's a lot to take on. The Faith is experiencing an Exodus of believers according to the last twenty years worth of Annual Reports, they don't hide it, nor do they promote it , from my sources at National I know this issue along with women not serving on the House are the top two reasons why people are leaving , it all feels so unnecessary, what happened to the Spirit of the Law versus the Letter of the Law, they could just freeze the application of the law to preserve unity , but oh no... Thank you for your support !!!
Hey Sean, I’m a trans gay guy who’s grown up in a Baha’i family as well.
What would you think of the idea of opening a discord server for queer bahais to find an online community?
Sean, your authenticity and love comes through in all of your responses, and I am so grateful someone like you exists for the Baha’i faith. My fiancé and I have been drawn to this faith for a long time, but we are queer and this has held us back from really moving forward with the faith. I am still interested in the faith, but I have always been baffled by the homophobia that exists within a faith that is meant to be so inclusive and unifying. Please, continue the work you are doing. It warms my soul.
Caden I appreciate your kind words , I try to do my best, I make mistakes, I'm not perfect but I speak from my heart and I hope that resonates, I honestly don't know how you two would be accepted as a couple with the latest guidance barring enrollment of same sex couples, the homophobia is baffling , hopefully this channel will be a force of good and will cause Baha'is to "think"
Excellent answering of difficult questions. The important thing is the asking of the questions and having the consultation. INCLUSION of the full spectrum of humanity is the only way to bring unity.
Thank you for touching on the issues related to the pressures and desires of marrying and forming families.
I strongly recommend the documentary Trembling Before God to anyone in the Baha’i Faith who thinks lightly of this issue. Even the Orthodox Jewish community is beginning to recognize that asking children to live loveless lives as adults or force themselves into opposite sex marriage is damaging to all.
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Being a stickler here Sean. Shoghi Effendi didn't interpret in Baha'u'llah's book of laws, the Kitab-i-Aqdas, on the topic of homosexuality. In a draft translation of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Shoghi Effendi made a mark or wrote a word that translates as, ruling on boy slaves, in a handwritten draft next to the word "homosexuality" under a heading of prohibitions. It was whoever compiled the synopsis of the Kitab-i-Aqdas in 1973 that chose to interpret this note to being an interpretation by Shoghi Effendi. If the author of the 1973 compilation was the Universal House of Justice then a later UHJ could make a change here, because Shoghi Effendi's unpublished manuscript can't be changed into a status of official interpretation. Also, unless there is other evidence penned by Shoghi Effendi himself, the reasons for a reference to "Ḥukm-i-Ghilmán" could be either to affirm, to check, or question, the inclusion of the word homosexuality in the prohibitions of his partial draft.
Only writings Shoghi Effendi published can be considered his official interpretation of the Bahai Writings.
For me it was clear that the author who made the connection between Baha'u'llah's reference to the shame (the then cultural practice) of paederasty in the Aqdas and homosexuality could not have been Shoghi Effendi himself, because the notes in the Kitab-i-Aqdas refer to Shoghi Effendi in the 3rd person. No one refers to their own writing in the third person.
For years, I too misread the list of prohibitions (homosexuality being one of words in the list) as officially part of Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Aqdas until I read the introduction more carefully which states that Shoghi Effendi never finished translating this. It is not clear which parts of either the 1973 or 1992 edition are policy of the UHJ, but what is clear is that only the pages 19-88 in 1992 edition, is a translation of Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Aqdas and a selection of Tablets and answers to questions Baha'u'llah was asked follow this to page 140. The rest in the 296 page volume were added by the editors, including references the Bahai Writings. There's nothing wrong with having extra information and the book is clearly marked out into sections, but since I did this myself, I can see how easy it is to think the later pages (homosexuality is only mentioned on pages 158 and 223) are also part of Bahai Scripture.
Then in 2011 the research department wrote "The Research Department at the Bahá'í World Centre has confirmed that the Guardian’s manuscript notes for the Codification of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, which includes in the list of prohibitions the word "homosexuality", are in his own handwriting in English. Furthermore, Shoghi Effendi’s handwritten notes in Persian clearly cross-referenced this entry to the specific term in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas concerning "the subject of boys" (Ḥukm-i-Ghilmán)."
The above is ambiguous. Cross referenced in a handwritten draft with this word in Persian? or a symbol of some sort? It probably means that the word "Ḥukm-i-Ghilmán" was handwritten next to the word homosexuality. As I mentioned unless there is more evidence than this, it means no one can read Shoghi Effendi's mind to know whether this word was noted there to affirm (cross reference) or to question.
I am certain that Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957) would have been well aware of the difference between paedestry (sexual practice with children / minors) and homosexuality as an oriention. Throughout his life, Shoghi Effendi visited and maintained a friendship with the artist Mark Tobey who was an out of the closet gay Bahai. In the 1930-50s being out of the closet was radical, and I see it also as a sign that Bahais in Mark Tobey's circles were welcoming of gays otherwise Mark Tobey would not have served on his LSA nor on his NSA. There is no evidence of Shoghi Effendi showing any sign other than praise and respect for Mark Tobey as a fellow Bahai.
However I understand Shaun, why you said "in the Kitab-i-Aqdas Shoghi Effendi interpreted" because many many Bahais say this and there are even Bahais who get upset at me for pointing out that it wasn't Shoghi Effendi in the reference in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, because he wouldn't refer to himself in the third person. For me this matters, even if today 99% of all Bahais say Shoghi Effendi interpreted, that doesn't mean he did. I am not questioning the motive of the editors of the synopsis because to quote the secretariat of the Universal House of Justice:
"It must always be remembered that authoritative interpretation of the Teachings was, after 'Abdu'l-Bahá, the exclusive right of the Guardian, and fell within the "sacred and prescribed domain" of the Guardianship, and therefore the Universal House of Justice cannot and will not infringe upon that domain. The exclusive sphere of the Universal House of Justice is to "pronounce upon and deliver the final
judgment on such laws and ordinances as Bahá'u'lláh has not expressly revealed." Apart from this fundamental difference in the functions of the twin pillars of the Order of Bahá'u'lláh, insofar as the other duties of the Head of the Faith are concerned, the Universal House of Justice shares with the Guardian the responsibility for the application of the revealed word, the protection of the Faith, as well
as the duty "to insure the continuity of that divinely-appointed authority which flows from the Source of our Faith, to safeguard the unity of its followers, and to maintain the integrity and flexibility of its Teachings."
However, the Universal House of Justice is not omniscient; like the Guardian, it wants to be provided with facts when
called upon to render a decision, and like him it may well change its decision when new facts emerge.... (On behalf of the The Universal House of Justice, 1977 Aug 22, Clarification on Infallibility)"
So unless there is evidence that Shoghi Effendi published on the topic of homosexuality, the Universal House of Justice is free to make policy based on other understandings of Shoghi Effendi's handwritten drafts. Here's a link to my blog that discusses the note on the subject of boys on page 228 in the 1992 edition of the Kitab-i-Aqdas: (Scroll up a paragraph for more context)
justabahai.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/mainly-about-homosexuality/#paederasty
Thank you, for this important added information.
You just stickle away !!! I appreciate your input and your research , it's vital. Please continue to share as you are a plethora of knowledge , your love and support means a lot to me and my family , thank you !!
Awww Sean dont cry. We love you 💖 and God loves us. Be strong. And thank you so much for these videos.
Sean, that was so great. I can not talk about this subject without getting really angry, but you were gentle and rational. And even a little hopeful that the UHJ might be consulting about LGBTQ rights. Speaking of which, do you think the prohibition against women serving on the UHJ is also problematic? I feel that men can not consult alone in truth without women on this issue and others.
Thank you , I too can get angry , but I have to center myself and pray before filming. I think women not serving on the House is very very problematic , and hope someone will tackle that issue like I am with the LGBTQ issue
Why not trust that Bahaullah knows what he is doing rather than trying to change what we feel uncomfortable with!
Allah'u'abha
The LAST time I went to the Houston Baha'i Center... in 1997, I wore a button which clearly stated, "Yes I Am! Baha'i and Gay!" I received many hugs... and then a screaming Iranian who ordered me "OUT" of the Center. He claimed to speak for the LSA. (He has since died an excruciating death. I could imagine SE gloating over this.) I decided to leave the Center... and proceeded to take down personal decorative items which I had loaned to the community: a Persian Rug, An authentic calligraphy of Mishqin'Qalam, a tooled Copper tray. I never went back.
Wow what an experience!
I am so, so sorry you were treated so badly. No one deserves that. The Faith has taken an off-course turn, and I am heart-broken by its cruelty. Everyone knew in the 70s and 80s who was gay within the Faith and there was a code of silence, respect, and inclusion. Now that's all been lost, and autocracy rules. The Faith has turned into a malignant, autocratic force.
Just bought a rainbow 9 pointed star T shirt!
Good suggestion!
I believe that in some cases, the LSA’s decision to remove voting rights was incorrect.
IMO being homosexual is not a sin in our faith, but this is my opinion.
UHJ says that LSA/NSA can erroneously remove voting rights, and if that is the case, the believer has the right to appeal.
“It can happen, for example, that voting rights are removed mistakenly and the incorrect action of the Assembly is the basis for the believer's application for their restoration.”
Full quote -
“"In answer to the second question in your letter of 17th May 1976, no hard and fast rule can be laid down. It can happen, for example, that voting rights are removed mistakenly and the incorrect action of the Assembly is the basis for the believer's application for their restoration. If the voting rights have been removed justifiably it is generally sufficient for the believer to take the necessary actions to have them restored; his application for restoration and compliance with the requirements of Bahá’í law are sufficient evidence of repentance. However, if the Assembly sees that the believer does not understand the reason for the deprivation and has a rebellious attitude it should endeavour to make the matter clear to him. If his attitude is one of contempt for the Bahá’í law and his actions have been in serious violation of its requirements, the Assembly may even be justified in extending the period of deprivation beyond the time of the rectification of the situation-but such cases, by their nature, are very rare."
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Perú, September 21, 1976)
Bahais can go to LGBTQ events.
UHJ clearly states this is actually encouraged!
From UHJ:
“…..Therefore to regard those with a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain would be against the spirit of the Faith. Furthermore, a Bahá’í is exhorted to be "an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression", and it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated.”
Universal House of Justice, 27 October 2010 to an individual believer
I have gone as a supporter of LGBTQ rights at a huge event here in NYC. And I am a devout Bahai.
I think the whole lot of comments about the subject of boys was 'Me thinks I shrivel..'
What if the Jehovah witnesses take over the faith?🤔
You could be an orthodox baha I..
Th guardian wants to talk to you
Salvation?? 🤔.. The Mormon church has an active mid singles community for sure and conferences and also struggles with the same issues of LGBTQ and ordinations in the church - none of the 12 principles or keys to the kingdom though have anything to do with sexuality or any of the other, very specific teachings that Baha'u'llah revealed - like washing feet everyday, writing a willl, getting new furniture, not plunging into food, etc..
With all due respect for LGBTQ community, which some of my dearest friends are members of that community, I was wondering how deep is your understanding of the teaching of Baha’u’llah, the holy figures of the faith and The Universal House of Justice?
If you have studied the faith, what are you fighting for?
To be a Baha’i and to actively engaged in homosexual relationship?
The possibility to fight for change, actually, is high for teachings to change, but, not at least for another 800 - 900 years later when and if a new prophet appears who has the power and is willing to change the law of Baha’u’llah if he / she decides to change that law.
Until then, the only change you could make is to, Please, stop fighting in vain, and change your religion by not calling yourself a Baha’i, which makes life easier and more enjoyable for you to seek and / or engage in any type of relationship you choose because, in this day and age, it seems that we destroy and demolish all the good things if the “sex” of any kind is not there, and we hang on to dirtiest way of life, beliefs, behaviors, attitudes, …., if we are giving a free pass to all and any kind of “sex,” be it straight, gay, ….,
It seems that “sex” of our choosing is the straw that breaks the camel’s back, for some of us, a lot of us, unfortunately, when thousands of people sacrificing and giving up all they got, even life itself, let alone sex of any kind, to stand up for truth, justice, equality and peace for human race.
Wish you well,
😔🙏🏿
What a useless plea you have just made:
-Where did you get the idea of another "800-900 years" have to pass? Since we're not seriously addressing planet warming, there will be no life left on earth by then, let alone a place for a new prophet.
-Your plea to "please change... your religion" speaks more to your own comfort level, rather than living at peace with others who are more diverse than you.
-Your reference to "dirtiest" sex speaks to your homophobia. That is your problem, not anyone else's.
I believe in inclusion, consultation without bias, science, kindness, and embracing the willingness to change our minds and lives to make us a happier, safer species. Apparently, sadly, you do not.
@@Gail-bz5kh
By the dirtiest sex, I meant sex with children, which is believed by some tribes and some nefarious religious beliefs,
I had no issue with no one’s way of life. I was simply saying that in Baha’i faith, like all major religions, there are laws prohibiting homosexuality. That was state of fact, and I was telling that gentleman to not fight that law because it won’t change. So, the only thing that he can do is to not to try to convince Baha’i community to change the Baha’i law, and if homosexuality or, as I said, sex of any kind, even heterosexual had it been forbidden, is more important to someone, they need to just enjoy their way of life and throw away that religion, be it Baha’i faith or any other religion,
But, your own prejudices and enlightenment prevented you from seeing my point and read too much into it and made it into something that was a creation of your own thinking, not mine.
The founder of Baha’i faith says that if anyone claims to be a prophet of God before a thousand years is passed, he or she is a false prophet and, at least Baha’is should not join that cause.
Baha’i faith is less than two hundred years old. So, the 800 - 900 years is based on my own calculation of that statement from the Baha’i faith.
Also, the Bah’i faith, despite all the dark days ahead of us and will get darker and darker with more severe calamities even beyond our imagination ahead of us, promises humanity that the “Golden Age” for Universal Peace and Unity of Mankind will come along.
The darker it gets, just like night time, the sooner the dawn will arrive.
So, humanity will not end, despite all hopelessness and helplessness and disasters we face.
Baha’is believe in that promise, and the darker it gets, the mire active they become to spread the healing message of peace, brotherhood, justice, equality, freedom, liberty and pursuit of happiness for all.
I hope I was more clear on what my intention was, and that I do not judge anyone for their way of life.
I just simply talked about what religions including Baha’i faith, which is more liberal in its approach to homosexuality than previous religions are, tell people about homosexuality and to abstain from it,
That was “IT.”
🙏🏾🙏🙏🏿
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@@mansoursadigi443 Thank you for such a full, thoughtful reply. We must agree to disagree on this issue of restricting rights from sincere Believers who've found love in a way that is different from you and I. As I explained on another site, if Baha'i belief is consonant with science, then science is not yet able to understand why some folks are attracted to their same sex, while most others are not. Once we understand this, then we might find a way to reconcile with compassion and understanding. My understanding is that this edict was a premature imposition on loving couples who are truly devoted to the Faith, based on incomplete scientific understanding.
Or the Mormons?!!
I am baffled why you would set out to reform a religion instead of finding one that suits your wishes. If the Baha'i Faith is real, an effort to shape it to your preferences will fail.
I’m a devout Baha’i and just want to tell you we love you guys and support you guys but the law is clear you can be Baha’i in your daily life again you have to have right in every aspect of life ‘
This makes no sense. Both the decree that no women can be on the UHJ and same-gendered couples are excluded from the Faith are a result of logical fallacies:
1. A woman only has 30 years of life to conceive and care for a new life. That leaves 40 years of wisdom and input to enlighten the consultation of the UHJ. Clearly, that is a treasure that is currently being untapped.
2. While the Muslim faith bans same-gendered affiliations, the Baha'i Faith is relying on an unstable, questionable translation. It contravenes all claims of inclusion---one world, mankind uniting, mentions of diverse flower gardens, et al---and presents a moral edict that is imposed on some believers, but not on others. Why are heterosexual couples blessed for marriage when gay couples are not? Both are capable of raising families within the Faith. It's stupidity based on ignorance, fear, and Muslim tradition. Shame on the inept translators who are putting these kind souls into hell!
Individuals who are homosexual find it hard to harmonize conflicting demands: the urge to express sex impulse directed towards someone of the same sex & also to be in a religion that prohibits same-sex relationship. These urges create inner torture.