LOL only NINE? what about putting a tenth one in the kitchen for background listening and maybe hooking another one to your bedroom's tv, you know, to add a little "ambience" to late night viewing plus the heat might help warm the room up a little wink wink
What about those 11 and 13 channel pre-amps? And the need to bi-amp the main 2 channels. And of course 4 sub-woofers; why use their built in amps? However their is a BIG cost to build a fully reinforced floor so that the system does not crack the foundation due to weight.
Nice story. I totally get it. Been thru this, too (incl. „senior moments“ lol). The relief you feel when finally all comes together and you hear the magic that you hoped for… priceless. Regarding power I can only tell you that I run my MC611 at barely 6W on average but I am getting that 600W sound even then. 9 also can’t explain but it’s real.
Using 6 watt and hearing 600 watt… hhmmm. Can someone explain this without gibberisch jadajadajada. A good amp and some spare watts ok, heard an Accuphase 30W class A / 8Ohm and it was nice very nice. 30W into 8Ohm => 15,5V and 1.93A you don’t need a nucleair power plant for that 🎧
Thank you for mentioning long term listening. John curl has mentioned this in a few interviews. Hugely important and really the only way to properly evaluate gear.
Not sure how i would feel about an amplifier that gives me a different quality of sound depending on the volume of my music! Krell has an integrated amp that provides class A until you hit a certain power output, then goes to class A/B
Gryphon amplifiers for the most part looks to be the most imposing and intimidating amplifiers. They look very industrial and all business. Iron fist in a velvet glove comes to mind. Thanks for the honest reveal; I can't imagine spending the mega bucks on the combo to get the sound you initially encountered. Glad you realized what had transpired. Great review!
ALways feels like sitting down with a friend when I watch you. I wish I am closer because I would definitely visit you and have some chat. However, my pocket will be less full because of it.
Appreciate the honest story. Unfortunately Jay audio lab can't do this. Everything is hidden behind figuratively and literal cover. And Jay isn't even a dealer 😂
I want to see an amp like this put through the same complete test and measurement sequence twice, once when it's at cold bias, and the second time, at high bias and fully warmed up. I want to SEE how the measurements change. Just because that interests me.
@adrianlow2114 .... Haha... I def wasn't referring to you directly... but for somethings in life.. I believe we all have a limit on either time wasted.. money.. or expectation threshold. Happy to hear of the outcome. 🙏🙏
I really love and enjoy your reviews/videos. I currently own Lamm: their reference two box preamp and the M1.2 Ref mono amps. Have you had any experience with them?
Great story Adrian! . . . JUST curious - given the exceptional sound and tone you experienced from the Maria, would it be THAT crazy to compare it to this 300 pound behemoth? IMHO it might make for some VERY interesting copy :-)
Hi Adrian, I wonder,what is sound like if you connect it to the Sonus Faber Stradivari Speakers.if you do please let me know how you feel. I am thinking to get the Mcintosh MC 901 for my Stradivari one day. Do you think it is a good match?
This is a great tale with a great outcome that we can all learn from . . . at first, let's not blame our tools when something goes awry AND when in doubt, read the manual LOL Thanks for your fun review Adrian! BUT . . . for a 170K USD, I'd want the thing to do the vacuuming, the dishes and walk the dog ALL at the same time :-)
Thanks for sharing your very honest thoughts. Which 200K amps are getting to compare? Really looking forward to your comparison. Also a huge Miles fan. Happy listening.
i love each and every one of your videos. this is one of those „everyone has an opinion“ comments. mostly i like your videos about speakers because i can relate to what you are saying, meaning that the differences between speakers can be huge as we all know. now comes the opinion part: sonic differences between different amps of the same capability to drive a speaker though are so miniscule that in my opinion, spending more money is just for the looks and the feeling that you „invested“ correctly. it‘s the typical audiophile type of OCD (which to each his own i guess). some people are more immune to that than others. would be interesting to blindfold a person and don‘t tell them what amp they are listening to. afterwards ask them about their preference. i did this test and honestly found that of the amps i listened to (all well made but still reasonably priced) i liked one that cost 3500 (over models that cost north of 15k). i didn‘t know the price nor the make and i did not hear truly meaningful differences. a tiny tad bit more punch maybe. so very minor differences. and if you presented the same group of amps to me the next week, i probably couldn’t tell which one was which. my hearing is absolutely ok, meaning ears of a normal adult. i am all for selling to people with heaps of money devices that weigh 300 pounds and look like a warp drive but all this talk about huge differences… this madness of accumulating vastly overpriced gear. and don‘t get me started with the differences between cables and how they can „transform“ the sound. maybe in a wilson xvx one should choose thick cables to make it look more audiophile than with some off the rack copper. what i experience is that people get on the train very fast. they feel obligated to represent themselves as audiophiles now that they bought a pair of decent speakers. most of my friends imagined that they heard differences in cables (you know, now that they own expensive gear they of course became experts with bat hearing) and convinced to buy cables for five thousand dollars. i must correct myself - my hearing must be faulty because of course i heard no difference in sound whatsoever. all i could think about while listening to the system was what i would tell them when they asked my opinion (of course expecting me to congratulate them for being more audiophile than most people or something)“you have a very, very nice system“ i said, knowing that the extra 5k from the cables would have more impact as a speaker upgrade. maybe you, Adrian, can hear meaningful differences in amps or even cables. why don‘t you try a blindfold test? no prices, no brands, back to back and the next week the same models in different order? i suggest five integrated amps combined with five different cables and five dacs. and afterwards you can tell us which amp is playing and with which cable through which dac. i would be interested.
gonna comment my comment because in retrospect i find it to be harsh and somewhat uneducated. maybe i just don‘t appreciate the same things other people do and haven‘t been open to certain possibilities, meaning i tend to be a biased nay sayer. i do hear differences in amps, just very small ones and maybe i‘m incapable of hearing them to the degree as other people do. staying neutral is hard. i‘m trying.
Tenor IS very VERY good and looks wise , IMHO, much better looking than this over the top styling of the Gryphon stuff which the end user has to pay for and doesn't add anything to the sound quality
Great talk on the new Gryphon. You caught my attention with your heading and thought this can not be! I have a feeling you will like the Apex more and more as time goes on. I think there is one pair pre/amp you need to bring in and compare. That is Block Audio... Dollar for dollar + I don't believe it can be beat.
Many thanks, Adrian, very interesting story, you deliver here. As an owner of a Gryphon Diablo 300 I must say, I am not missing any Pro/Power amp combo at all, even not from Gryphon. I think that modern hifi technic at this high level makes those boxes kind of redundant. An integrated amp as the Diablo is as good as his siblings. I listened to both lines at my dealer‘s studio and I couldn’t hear any difference. Told it to the dealer and he smiled. The combo is a tiny bit better, was his response. Well, for me that’s psychoacoustics. The combo is 100 000 bucks more expensive. So it must be better, right?
Integrated vs dedicated pre/poweramp is not the same. Having separate powersupplys helps already. Maybe your setup is lacking something else, you will notice an improvement from separates.
I wish that was the case. What I didn't say in the video was that my friend has my Diablo 300 in his house. It's unofficially his now as he refuses to give it back. We did a quick comparison and it just wasn't as good. Believe me, I didn't want to spend the money!
Thanks for a frank and honest review. It will take a special breed of audiophiles who will leave these amps powered on at L bias and then when wanting to listen to music, wait another 45mins for it to stabilise at M/H bias so it can perform well. I would think from a practical standpoint these 100K++ amps need to do a far better job on L bias.
It sounds fine on L Bias. But the promised magic isn’t there on L. And to be fair Gryphon doesn’t want to design class AB power amps as they don’t feel that gives the magic they are after
Hello Fellow Audiophiles And Friends: Adrian thank you for your Gryphon review video. I clearly understand what you are saying. The WOW factor was missing especially with the extreme costs. I always appreciate your expert opinion. Thank you again sir, TMP from N.J.
In the end, Adrian dialled in the proper bias level to get the "magic" that he was looking for - having said that, IMHO one can get similar or better performance for less $ - 170k is just not necessary to ENJOY one's music :-)
I am sure it is an awesome product. It certainly looks impressive. I definitely cannot afford that but even if I could, I don’t think I would spend that type of money regardless of how much I have just my thoughts I think any amplifier at $10,000 and above is more than enough for maybe 90% of the people audio file that is people❤
@@adrianlow2114 we all can say we have OCD and some form or another. How about we control it instead of it controlling us pretty simple to me to understand that just saying.🙏🏻❤️
I’m with you on the physical/tactile controls. Far superior to touchscreen. I’m also with you on the blu-tooth remote. When I recently upgraded my rig. I had a purpose built media cabinet designed to house it. Fronted by tinted glass doors. I like my hifi to be heard not seen! I thought my infra red remotes would penetrate that tinted glass. They don’t. Now, annoyingly, I have to leave one door slightly open on the side of the cabinet that houses my preamp and CD transport. Blu-tooth would have eradicated that issue.
To me, the first threshold of a high-end hi fi system is the beautiful and graceful enough effortless sound quality produced. I take break-in of a component sort of different from its run-in into a system. My guess is....often, it needs a period of run-in time at "normal audit operating level", when taking an already run-well component in one system to synchronize adequately into a different set of system "first time". This even often applies to things like cables and interlinks as well. In a pure class A amp, high bias gives the full engine running state designed, thereby a different run-in or running state.
I had a similar experience with using amps. I tried a stereo power amp with 2x150 watt for avantgarde acoustic Trios. Theoretically that should have been more than sufficient power. I was surprised that using two of those power amps in a 2x mono configuration did improve the liveliness of the music playback significantly and gave me that "magic" experience you referret to.
Could be but the best results I heard where not created by the most powerful amps but hood class A amps. And in all cases 30W was more than enough, barely need more then a few watts....
I have written to you before. You are humble and self effacing. I enjoy watching your videos. This is unlike others who say they want to inform but clearly like to hear themselves speak. That being said, The I chuckled about your left handed issues. The issue is likely not your handedness. You are likely left eyed!! You have accommodated for this when using your left hand. When forced to use your right hand your eyes may not be set for right hand use. To test this out, look at a finger held out in front of you with both eyes. Then cover your left eye. If your finger seems to jump to one side or another, the issue with your Tesla more likely your eyes,not your hand!!😂
My God, I thought my Luxman Class A was power hungry @ 320 watts. This Gryphon is off the charts. Power consumption (Maximum): 3700W. Power consumption (Idle): Bias H: 1000W / Bias M: 660W / Bias L: 320W. Your not kidding when you say it’ll heat the room. 🤓
A testimony of your critical hearing prowess Adrian - with that amount of money on the line and all of your initial excitement you could have so easily allowed yourself to be swayed into thinking that what you were hearing was much better than you ultimately found it to be, my hats off to you for trusting your ears - - I'm kind of grinning at the cable deniers, sorry fellas, Adrian didn't need an Audio Precision Analyzer to prove something wasn't right, truth is, the man is initially only hearing one setting and presentation which turns out to be a more typical A/B configuration - - not like he's even ABing anything, he isn't "comparing" anything, he's simply auditioning a power amplifier, yes, with his ears! Imagine that!! - - Anyway, you know I'm kidding a bit but nicely done Adrian, what you went through, which obviously included thoughts of "bailing" from Gryphon, was a much bigger deal than you're giving yourself credit for.
Wow, big mistake with bias.. He offer cable between pre and amp, for change bias auto.. But i remove it, to high bias only.. No matter volume. Of course a buy ac for room. Good review. BR
Low feedback designs are meant to have relatively high low order and pleasing harmoic distortion but intermodulation distortion and higher order harmonic distortion should be at vanishingly low levels. Stereophile measurements showed that this design has high levels of high order harmonic distortion and high levels of intermodulation distortion which kind of defeats the point. They also found massive channel imbalances in certain measurements. So this doesn't come as a surprise to me. Benchmark and Bryston do far better jobs for a fraction of the price with none of these issues. Very dissapointing.
Much enjoy all your content. Thank you. As a Tesla owner I would advise when you want to change temperature tap the mic button on the steering wheel and just say what temperature you want, or just about anything else. No need to fiddle with the screen at all.😊
Thanks. Have tried that but it doesn’t always work. One of the first things they teach in engineering is to make things as simple as possible but not more. Having some physical controls is a good thing in my opinion. If the screen or the computer that controls the screen goes bad, there is no recourse.
Class A amps and heat... Adrian should emphasize this. I upgraded from a Pass Labs XA-100.5 to the big boy XA-200.5 and let me tell you, I literally roast. I have to run fans so the listening area does not become a sauna. Anyways, keep up the good work Adrain. It's great to hear a actual retailer chime in and provide input on how a particular manufacturer's equipment sounds. Out of curiosity, why don't you carry Pass Labs? Thanks & keep up the good work.
Honestly, most manufacturers of solid state amplifiers will tell you never to turn their products off, because SS transistors, MOSFET's and the like, like to be in warm environments to perform. Even though some amps have standby modes, for some amps that is not enough.
G'day Adrian I know how you can fix the left-handed issue, come live in Australia mate we drive on the opposite side of the car meaning you're left hand and preferred hand will be the one controlling the centre screen lol. I've listened to pretty much all of the Gryphon amplifiers over my time, and I've owned a Diablo 300. I've heard quite a few D'Agostino and earlier iterations of Dan's amplifiers over the years. I'd have to say the commander and Apex combination is the best I've heard from Gryphon audio so far. I currently have Vitus monoblocks and preamp in my system and love them. Also, pure class A. Thanks for your in-depth initial thoughts in relation to these products. I found this very interesting, and it can be a bit of a trick with the bias settings. Now with my own audio channel, I don't have a lot of time to watch other channels, but I've been a subscriber for many years now as I think you know, and I always find time to listen to your perspective. Thanks for all you do for the industry, Adrian.
At this level of engineering and cost, they should be amazing no matter what mode they are in. If you have to talk yourself into them being worth their price then they aren’t.
A class A amplifier NEEDS to run at a certain bias to operate in an ideal "window" to reach its sound potential in much the same way certain performance cars require higher octane fuel to run at their full performance potential.
@@davidbee8178 Yes I’m aware how a class A amp works. My point is don’t offer a class A/B option. I’m not spending $100k on a piece of equipment just to listen to it at its worse. Even in Class A it doesn’t seem like it meets its obligation of competing with other options out there based on this review.
@@jeffreythurston1822 I'm in no way a Gryphon fan boy believe me and I'm almost sure that similar quality of sound or even better (maybe?) might be had for less BUT in THIS case, I believe that given the level of heat the amp generates, Gryphon perhaps wants to give their owners the ability/option to adjust the bias depending on their listening preferences - on low bias for background listening for instance and medium to high for more critical listening. Adrian DID conclude that once it operated in high bias Class A, the Gryphon DID render its "magic" but as it pertains to "meeting its obligation of competing with other options out there" it is a little premature to say that based on this review because he will get to comparing the Gryphon to others in a future video . . . Having said ALL THAT . . . I have to say that . . . Even if I had that kind of cash, I don't think I'd opt for a 300 pound behemoth that needs 2 or three people to set it in place AND pay all that money for a ton of features and fancy displays that don't add anything to the listening experience :-)
Hi Adrian , i felt the same , Gryphon is too " cold " , nothing like Mcintosh and italian amps ( norma , angstrom , pathos , unison ) thanks and regards , from spain/ france
You mention Jay's Audio Lab. How about some well-recorded sound samples like Jay's to give us a taste of general character, even if not 100% same as life? While many count out YT audio quality, some channels prove one can definitely tell the RELATIVE differences between A-B-C.
I think you make perfect sense when you say "RELATIVE" . . . I've tried to get this across to a LOT of folks who say such and such a system "sounds great". What in fact they are saying is that THEIR system sounds great . . . relatively speaking :-)
To me it would be interesting to have a "scientific" explanation why my Luxman 20 watt classe A amplifier consumes 230 watt and the Gryphon Apex consumes 3700 watt at 1000 Watt Biais High. It's not a linear ratio. Thank you Adrian
It's a good question. Problem is different manufacturers may use different definitions of Class A. Also, the "efficiency" of the design may also play a part
I have to agree on the monster part :-) . . . when you have to have at LEAST two or more people help you MOVE the thing, things are ALREADY out of control LOL . . Class A is fine if well implemented but not necessary when something like the Daniel Hertz Maria comes along (that apparently sounds really VERY fine) that costs a FRACTION of the Gryphon and that a 5 year old can actually carry on his or her own.
you didn't see the climax at the end . . . it WAS all good in the end albeit even WITH that kind of cash, I wouldn't give Gryphon all that money :-) WAY too much $ spent on all that complexity. and outward looks that one has to pay extraordinary money for . . . better or comparable can be had for less
As you said earlier you’re in an industrial unit and prey to all sorts of fluctuations in power, not just from the grid but you neighbouring businesses too. A dedicated power line would likely be out of the question, and power conditioning may not do the trick. But if I was auditioning and selling expensive gear I’d want some kind of monitoring device on my fuse panel to see if I’m experiencing any voltage anomalies during the day.
The more into class A the more linear part of the transition curve you are using. No magic. Higher bias current will be more linear and have less amplitude of higher order harmonics of distortion. So higher bias will sound somewhat different than lower current bias of an amplifier. Not necessarily better, but different.
I'm always amazed at how audiophiles can hear the differences from "memory". I don't know if I would be able to hear subtle differences between a lot equipment unless I was to A/B compare it with the same recordings. I suppose it is a learned and honed skill. I used to work in the labs at a Molson's brewery and the best people for participating on the taste panels were the guys who, how do I put this...maybe drank a bit too much. They were finely tuned tasting machines.
lol, I can relate. I love cigars. Maybe too much. I've done blind tastings of my collection and can tell within about 10 mins which I am smoking. That's when you know you are an addict!
I heard from a friend who was so lucky to hear it on a maxed out system that it was overall amazing with a gigantic bass presence and floating voices, but still a tiny bit digital in sound.
Adrian, been watching your videos for about 2 years. Never seen you so "flustered" over a listening experience. Even after adjusting the bias on the Apex and stating that the sound was very good, it still seemed that you had a small amount of uncertainty about the Gryphon combo. Similar to having great excitement and anticipation on a first date, only to have the initial impressions fall extremely short. You seemed emotionally drained by the experience.
Why all that power? Only using a few watts with reasonable sensitive speakers… can someone explain, using the laws of electricity like ohm… no jidajidajida
Imagine driving 170 kph on the German highway. You can do that with a 70 Hp little town car, or with a 400 Hp German limousine. In both cases you drive equally as fast, but the experience is totally different. You probably only use 25% of the power in the limousine, that is one of the reason the ride is smooth and comfortable.
@@robinr5787not the same here, at a constant speed in the same car there is no difference. The car with 400hp is heavier has beter suspension, seats and is more solent. Same car different engine should behave the same at constant speed.
It depends on a few things. One is the sensitivity of the speaker you love. Not everyone likes speakers that are also in the mid 90s sensitivity. Power requirement doubles every 3dB increase. If you enjoy volume peaks over 100dB , the required power goes Up very quickly.
On a ergonomy side… Tesla is the worst system currently on road… always have to look the middle of the car to do something… not your eyes on the road… and vocal commander not as fast and reliable than a nob (when people on the car, noise, etc… )
IMO utterly ridiculous spending $180k USD on an amplifier. For those doing so have more money than common sense. I get it why people seek them but I think it’s a little sad spending that much on a sound system. And I know there’s lot out there who say if you have it might as well spend it.. but that’s still sad.
@@AmbientAudioDystopia You’ve clearly lost touch with reality. You’re in the the more I spend the better and happier I will be.. too bad. You break from it eventually
@@robclendenning2806you seem bitter and quite a pathetic hypocrite. Do you not live in this modern world with the rest of us? Do you use currency? Do you not buy and maybe pay more for items that you enjoy more than others? Could be whole milk vs 1%? Doesn't matter if it's 50 cents more or 50 million more, i guarantee you do, so get off your high horse. Dullard.
Again a why? I think Adrian is one of the most honest audiophile on UA-cam. I have little experience in this price range, but can often relate to his findings, even in lower systems.
![Gryphon Tabu [Reduktor Szumu] #279](/img/n.gif)
I will never be able to buy the Gryphon Apex/commander. But 3 years ago i bought the Gryphon Diablo 120 integrated amp. I love it. So musical.
Pretty much same for me, i have tbe diablo 300 fantastic
Same here
Good for you !
Diablo 120 is a real gem.
Just wait a few years and buy used
I was contemplating buying nine of these for my home theater but now I know not to waste my money. Thanks.
LOL only NINE? what about putting a tenth one in the kitchen for background listening and maybe hooking another one to your bedroom's tv, you know, to add a little "ambience" to late night viewing plus the heat might help warm the room up a little wink wink
Very interesting, I could feel your frustration .had times like that that myself .
Regards, antony...
What about those 11 and 13 channel pre-amps? And the need to bi-amp the main 2 channels. And of course 4 sub-woofers; why use their built in amps? However their is a BIG cost to build a fully reinforced floor so that the system does not crack the foundation due to weight.
Nice story. I totally get it. Been thru this, too (incl. „senior moments“ lol). The relief you feel when finally all comes together and you hear the magic that you hoped for… priceless. Regarding power I can only tell you that I run my MC611 at barely 6W on average but I am getting that 600W sound even then. 9 also can’t explain but it’s real.
Using 6 watt and hearing 600 watt… hhmmm. Can someone explain this without gibberisch jadajadajada. A good amp and some spare watts ok, heard an Accuphase 30W class A / 8Ohm and it was nice very nice. 30W into 8Ohm => 15,5V and 1.93A you don’t need a nucleair power plant for that 🎧
Whats the 600w sound? You mean more headroom at low listening levels?
Thank you for mentioning long term listening. John curl has mentioned this in a few interviews. Hugely important and really the only way to properly evaluate gear.
Thanks
Not sure how i would feel about an amplifier that gives me a different quality of sound depending on the volume of my music! Krell has an integrated amp that provides class A until you hit a certain power output, then goes to class A/B
Gryphon amplifiers for the most part looks to be the most imposing and intimidating amplifiers. They look very industrial and all business. Iron fist in a velvet glove comes to mind. Thanks for the honest reveal; I can't imagine spending the mega bucks on the combo to get the sound you initially encountered. Glad you realized what had transpired. Great review!
Thanks. Imagine how I feel lol
ALways feels like sitting down with a friend when I watch you. I wish I am closer because I would definitely visit you and have some chat. However, my pocket will be less full because of it.
Appreciate the honest story. Unfortunately Jay audio lab can't do this. Everything is hidden behind figuratively and literal cover. And Jay isn't even a dealer 😂
Adrian, comparing yourself (even jokingly) to Jay is not wise. You are waaaaaay better. Jay doesn’t have a sincere bone in his body, he is fake
Experience will always trump what you think you know. Adrian has great depth. Jay is a good honest man. It will come with time.
So glad you got there in the end. They are quite incredible amplification.
Thanks.
Great video ❤ I am going to upgrade my gryphon from EVO mono to Apex. Should I go for the Apex Mono
Yes!
I want to see an amp like this put through the same complete test and measurement sequence twice, once when it's at cold bias, and the second time, at high bias and fully warmed up. I want to SEE how the measurements change. Just because that interests me.
Really nice deep dive on these. Valuable for " evaluating gear " for anyone with short temper or patience.
Nice to know how things turned out.
lol. I don’t usually have short temper. But it definitely was pretty vexing
@adrianlow2114 .... Haha... I def wasn't referring to you directly... but for somethings in life.. I believe we all have a limit on either time wasted.. money.. or expectation threshold.
Happy to hear of the outcome. 🙏🙏
I really love and enjoy your reviews/videos. I currently own Lamm: their reference two box preamp and the M1.2 Ref mono amps. Have you had any experience with them?
Thanks. Unfortunately only at shows. Lamm always had great sound
@@adrianlow2114 Thank you for such an expeditious response. :)
@@4YearOldPowerSingermy pleasure
My first thought was you’re not getting enough fiber thank God it was the bias
Lol
Great story Adrian! . . . JUST curious - given the exceptional sound and tone you experienced from the Maria, would it be THAT crazy to compare it to this 300 pound behemoth? IMHO it might make for some VERY interesting copy :-)
I was thinking the exact same thing lol
Hi Adrian,
I wonder,what is sound like if you connect it to the Sonus Faber Stradivari Speakers.if you do please let me know how you feel.
I am thinking to get the Mcintosh MC 901 for my Stradivari one day. Do you think it is a good match?
Yes the 901 works very well with the Strad
Great video Adrian, can’t wait to hear what you think of your new amps heading your way. 😎
Coming soon
This is a great tale with a great outcome that we can all learn from . . . at first, let's not blame our tools when something goes awry AND when in doubt, read the manual LOL Thanks for your fun review Adrian! BUT . . . for a 170K USD, I'd want the thing to do the vacuuming, the dishes and walk the dog ALL at the same time :-)
Agreed. The irony is that I actually read the manual… the first time in a very long time.
@@adrianlow2114 LOL ! Perhaps these 3:30 AM listening sessions are taking their toll :-)
@@davidbee8178hehe
Very nice review. A side question, which recording of Meditation from Thais do you prefer?
DAvid Nadien, Michael Rabin, Anne-Sophie Mutter are a few I love
Thanks for sharing your very honest thoughts. Which 200K amps are getting to compare? Really looking forward to your comparison. Also a huge Miles fan. Happy listening.
Keep watching. The first video will drop soon
i love each and every one of your videos. this is one of those „everyone has an opinion“ comments. mostly i like your videos about speakers because i can relate to what you are saying, meaning that the differences between speakers can be huge as we all know. now comes the opinion part: sonic differences between different amps of the same capability to drive a speaker though are so miniscule that in my opinion, spending more money is just for the looks and the feeling that you „invested“ correctly. it‘s the typical audiophile type of OCD (which to each his own i guess). some people are more immune to that than others. would be interesting to blindfold a person and don‘t tell them what amp they are listening to. afterwards ask them about their preference. i did this test and honestly found that of the amps i listened to (all well made but still reasonably priced) i liked one that cost 3500 (over models that cost north of 15k). i didn‘t know the price nor the make and i did not hear truly meaningful differences. a tiny tad bit more punch maybe. so very minor differences. and if you presented the same group of amps to me the next week, i probably couldn’t tell which one was which. my hearing is absolutely ok, meaning ears of a normal adult. i am all for selling to people with heaps of money devices that weigh 300 pounds and look like a warp drive but all this talk about huge differences… this madness of accumulating vastly overpriced gear. and don‘t get me started with the differences between cables and how they can „transform“ the sound. maybe in a wilson xvx one should choose thick cables to make it look more audiophile than with some off the rack copper. what i experience is that people get on the train very fast. they feel obligated to represent themselves as audiophiles now that they bought a pair of decent speakers. most of my friends imagined that they heard differences in cables (you know, now that they own expensive gear they of course became experts with bat hearing) and convinced to buy cables for five thousand dollars. i must correct myself - my hearing must be faulty because of course i heard no difference in sound whatsoever. all i could think about while listening to the system was what i would tell them when they asked my opinion (of course expecting me to congratulate them for being more audiophile than most people or something)“you have a very, very nice system“ i said, knowing that the extra 5k from the cables would have more impact as a speaker upgrade. maybe you, Adrian, can hear meaningful differences in amps or even cables. why don‘t you try a blindfold test? no prices, no brands, back to back and the next week the same models in different order? i suggest five integrated amps combined with five different cables and five dacs. and afterwards you can tell us which amp is playing and with which cable through which dac. i would be interested.
gonna comment my comment because in retrospect i find it to be harsh and somewhat uneducated. maybe i just don‘t appreciate the same things other people do and haven‘t been open to certain possibilities, meaning i tend to be a biased nay sayer. i do hear differences in amps, just very small ones and maybe i‘m incapable of hearing them to the degree as other people do. staying neutral is hard. i‘m trying.
It would be cool if you could bring in more Canadian products have you every listened to Tenor Audio equipment ?
Unfortunately only at shows
Tenor IS very VERY good and looks wise , IMHO, much better looking than this over the top styling of the Gryphon stuff which the end user has to pay for and doesn't add anything to the sound quality
Great talk on the new Gryphon. You caught my attention with your heading and thought this can not be! I have a feeling you will like the Apex more and more as time goes on. I think there is one pair pre/amp you need to bring in and compare.
That is Block Audio... Dollar for dollar + I don't believe it can be beat.
Thanks. Have to pause for a while before I look at new lines… I’m broke lol
Hi I have not heard of Block - are you a dealer? any online reviews that you can recommend? Just curious :-)
if you can't find the remote you can't turn the pre down? I don't at all like the thought of that
You don’t need the remote to adjust the volume. The preamp has a touch screen
Many thanks, Adrian, very interesting story, you deliver here. As an owner of a Gryphon Diablo 300 I must say, I am not missing any Pro/Power amp combo at all, even not from Gryphon. I think that modern hifi technic at this high level makes those boxes kind of redundant. An integrated amp as the Diablo is as good as his siblings. I listened to both lines at my dealer‘s studio and I couldn’t hear any difference. Told it to the dealer and he smiled. The combo is a tiny bit better, was his response. Well, for me that’s psychoacoustics. The combo is 100 000 bucks more expensive. So it must be better, right?
Integrated vs dedicated pre/poweramp is not the same. Having separate powersupplys helps already. Maybe your setup is lacking something else, you will notice an improvement from separates.
I wish that was the case. What I didn't say in the video was that my friend has my Diablo 300 in his house. It's unofficially his now as he refuses to give it back. We did a quick comparison and it just wasn't as good. Believe me, I didn't want to spend the money!
@@adrianlow2114 have you heard the 333 before?
@@AudiolandCH not yet
I like how Adrian is always saying how he goes into the store at 3:30 or 4am. Such uncommon behaviour. I find that interesting
I never got over my jet lag from my last trip to Italy a few years ago.
Thanks for a frank and honest review. It will take a special breed of audiophiles who will leave these amps powered on at L bias and then when wanting to listen to music, wait another 45mins for it to stabilise at M/H bias so it can perform well. I would think from a practical standpoint these 100K++ amps need to do a far better job on L bias.
It sounds fine on L Bias. But the promised magic isn’t there on L. And to be fair Gryphon doesn’t want to design class AB power amps as they don’t feel that gives the magic they are after
Hello Fellow Audiophiles And Friends: Adrian thank you for your Gryphon review video. I clearly understand what you are saying. The WOW factor was missing especially with the extreme costs. I always appreciate your expert opinion. Thank you again sir, TMP from N.J.
The wow factor was not missing
Thanks. Thankfully the magic is happening now. I’m been listening to the system since 5am and it’s pretty darn good!
Were you able to listen until the end Thomas? The WOW factor DID kick in when Adrian upped the BIAS to where it should be
wait.. you mean the musical return on spending $170k for an amp and preamp doesn't support that cost? who knew
In the end, Adrian dialled in the proper bias level to get the "magic" that he was looking for - having said that, IMHO one can get similar or better performance for less $ - 170k is just not necessary to ENJOY one's music :-)
Too much care and feeding; thank you for your candor.
Thanks. And yes it’s high maintenance
All Gryphon power amps run very hot. Including the AB types integrated amps.
I am sure it is an awesome product. It certainly looks impressive. I definitely cannot afford that but even if I could, I don’t think I would spend that type of money regardless of how much I have just my thoughts I think any amplifier at $10,000 and above is more than enough for maybe 90% of the people audio file that is people❤
Agree in sentiment. But I have obsessive compulsive tendencies and it’s hard to stop when I’m having fun lol
@@adrianlow2114 we all can say we have OCD and some form or another. How about we control it instead of it controlling us pretty simple to me to understand that just saying.🙏🏻❤️
@@stephencosta6814$$$ fixes everything, right?!! Lolol!! 😊😊😊
In 210 watts class A the secondary power supply turns on more capacitors more transistors in series greater voltage swing
Totally off topic - have you considered any of the Audiovector speakers?
Have not heard them yet
I’m with you on the physical/tactile controls. Far superior to touchscreen. I’m also with you on the blu-tooth remote. When I recently upgraded my rig. I had a purpose built media cabinet designed to house it. Fronted by tinted glass doors. I like my hifi to be heard not seen! I thought my infra red remotes would penetrate that tinted glass. They don’t. Now, annoyingly, I have to leave one door slightly open on the side of the cabinet that houses my preamp and CD transport. Blu-tooth would have eradicated that issue.
I guess in theory one doesn't need to heat the music room in the winter months 😂
To me, the first threshold of a high-end hi fi system is the beautiful and graceful enough effortless sound quality produced.
I take break-in of a component sort of different from its run-in into a system.
My guess is....often, it needs a period of run-in time at "normal audit operating level", when taking an already run-well component in one system to synchronize adequately into a different set of system "first time". This even often applies to things like cables and interlinks as well.
In a pure class A amp, high bias gives the full engine running state designed, thereby a different run-in or running state.
I had a similar experience with using amps. I tried a stereo power amp with 2x150 watt for avantgarde acoustic Trios. Theoretically that should have been more than sufficient power. I was surprised that using two of those power amps in a 2x mono configuration did improve the liveliness of the music playback significantly and gave me that "magic" experience you referret to.
Thanks for sharing
Could be but the best results I heard where not created by the most powerful amps but hood class A amps. And in all cases 30W was more than enough, barely need more then a few watts....
I have written to you before. You are humble and self effacing. I enjoy watching your videos. This is unlike others who say they want to inform but clearly like to hear themselves speak. That being said, The I chuckled about your left handed issues. The issue is likely not your handedness. You are likely left eyed!! You have accommodated for this when using your left hand. When forced to use your right hand your eyes may not be set for right hand use. To test this out, look at a finger held out in front of you with both eyes. Then cover your left eye. If your finger seems to jump to one side or another, the issue with your Tesla more likely your eyes,not your hand!!😂
I tried the test and it doesn’t appear that I’m left eye dominant
My God, I thought my Luxman Class A was power hungry @ 320 watts.
This Gryphon is off the charts. Power consumption (Maximum): 3700W.
Power consumption (Idle): Bias H: 1000W / Bias M: 660W / Bias L: 320W.
Your not kidding when you say it’ll heat the room. 🤓
A testimony of your critical hearing prowess Adrian - with that amount of money on the line and all of your initial excitement you could have so easily allowed yourself to be swayed into thinking that what you were hearing was much better than you ultimately found it to be, my hats off to you for trusting your ears - - I'm kind of grinning at the cable deniers, sorry fellas, Adrian didn't need an Audio Precision Analyzer to prove something wasn't right, truth is, the man is initially only hearing one setting and presentation which turns out to be a more typical A/B configuration - - not like he's even ABing anything, he isn't "comparing" anything, he's simply auditioning a power amplifier, yes, with his ears! Imagine that!! - - Anyway, you know I'm kidding a bit but nicely done Adrian, what you went through, which obviously included thoughts of "bailing" from Gryphon, was a much bigger deal than you're giving yourself credit for.
Thanks! Appreciate the kind words
Wow, big mistake with bias.. He offer cable between pre and amp, for change bias auto.. But i remove it, to high bias only.. No matter volume. Of course a buy ac for room. Good review. BR
Wow, that’s some story. Just curious, are you going to any other Gryphon models in.
Yes
Low feedback designs are meant to have relatively high low order and pleasing harmoic distortion but intermodulation distortion and higher order harmonic distortion should be at vanishingly low levels. Stereophile measurements showed that this design has high levels of high order harmonic distortion and high levels of intermodulation distortion which kind of defeats the point. They also found massive channel imbalances in certain measurements. So this doesn't come as a surprise to me. Benchmark and Bryston do far better jobs for a fraction of the price with none of these issues. Very dissapointing.
Much enjoy all your content. Thank you. As a Tesla owner I would advise when you want to change temperature tap the mic button on the steering wheel and just say what temperature you want, or just about anything else. No need to fiddle with the screen at all.😊
Thanks. Have tried that but it doesn’t always work. One of the first things they teach in engineering is to make things as simple as possible but not more. Having some physical controls is a good thing in my opinion. If the screen or the computer that controls the screen goes bad, there is no recourse.
Class A amps and heat... Adrian should emphasize this. I upgraded from a Pass Labs XA-100.5 to the big boy XA-200.5 and let me tell you, I literally roast. I have to run fans so the listening area does not become a sauna. Anyways, keep up the good work Adrain. It's great to hear a actual retailer chime in and provide input on how a particular manufacturer's equipment sounds. Out of curiosity, why don't you carry Pass Labs? Thanks & keep up the good work.
Thanks. Pass Labs is already represented by another dealer.
Is it common for amplifiers of that caliber to have to warm up so long before sounding as they are designed to?
Honestly, most manufacturers of solid state amplifiers will tell you never to turn their products off, because SS transistors, MOSFET's and the like, like to be in warm environments to perform. Even though some amps have standby modes, for some amps that is not enough.
It is wise to stay away from dealers that sell gear that they advise warm up times past their return policies 😆
In the case of Gryphon it appears the bias circuit ramps slowly before it reaches the final stage
you would never dive into a brand without being sure; like your videos
Thanks Larry
Correct, low sensitieve speakers at high volumes demand power. But 100db is very load, earplugs 😂
The best was the end! 🤣 You could have also taped the script to the ceiling/above you. Unlike unboxings, MORE BAD ACTING PLEASE!! 🤣🤣
lol. Mike snuck that in at the end. Thank God he didn’t preannounce it at the beginning
@@adrianlow2114 Naw!! He really should have STARTED the video with it! 🤣
G'day Adrian I know how you can fix the left-handed issue, come live in Australia mate we drive on the opposite side of the car meaning you're left hand and preferred hand will be the one controlling the centre screen lol.
I've listened to pretty much all of the Gryphon amplifiers over my time, and I've owned a Diablo 300.
I've heard quite a few D'Agostino and earlier iterations of Dan's amplifiers over the years.
I'd have to say the commander and Apex combination is the best I've heard from Gryphon audio so far.
I currently have Vitus monoblocks and preamp in my system and love them. Also, pure class A.
Thanks for your in-depth initial thoughts in relation to these products. I found this very interesting, and it can be a bit of a trick with the bias settings.
Now with my own audio channel, I don't have a lot of time to watch other channels, but I've been a subscriber for many years now as I think you know, and I always find time to listen to your perspective. Thanks for all you do for the industry, Adrian.
Thanks Shane. I’ll find my way there one day
@adrianlow2114 You'd be very welcome Adrian in fact, I'd be honoured.🙏🎧🙂
@@shanestephenson8423👌
I went with Audio Music brand. Very high end for sensible pricing.
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At this level of engineering and cost, they should be amazing no matter what mode they are in. If you have to talk yourself into them being worth their price then they aren’t.
A class A amplifier NEEDS to run at a certain bias to operate in an ideal "window" to reach its sound potential in much the same way certain performance cars require higher octane fuel to run at their full performance potential.
@@davidbee8178 Yes I’m aware how a class A amp works. My point is don’t offer a class A/B option. I’m not spending $100k on a piece of equipment just to listen to it at its worse. Even in Class A it doesn’t seem like it meets its obligation of competing with other options out there based on this review.
@@jeffreythurston1822 I'm in no way a Gryphon fan boy believe me and I'm almost sure that similar quality of sound or even better (maybe?) might be had for less BUT in THIS case, I believe that given the level of heat the amp generates, Gryphon perhaps wants to give their owners the ability/option to adjust the bias depending on their listening preferences - on low bias for background listening for instance and medium to high for more critical listening. Adrian DID conclude that once it operated in high bias Class A, the Gryphon DID render its "magic" but as it pertains to "meeting its obligation of competing with other options out there" it is a little premature to say that based on this review because he will get to comparing the Gryphon to others in a future video . . . Having said ALL THAT . . . I have to say that . . .
Even if I had that kind of cash, I don't think I'd opt for a 300 pound behemoth that needs 2 or three people to set it in place AND pay all that money for a ton of features and fancy displays that don't add anything to the listening experience :-)
Hi Adrian , i felt the same , Gryphon is too " cold " , nothing like Mcintosh and italian amps ( norma , angstrom , pathos , unison ) thanks and regards , from spain/ france
1st Comment💪
Damn you are fast
If I remembered correctly, Rune Skov once told me that I should always set the Gryphon in high bias
He's right.
Bello/Magnifico.💥💥💥💥💥💥💨
Always dreamed of the original Gryphon CD player. So, finish the system with the current version, even though most of us can never afford it.
One day…
You mention Jay's Audio Lab. How about some well-recorded sound samples like Jay's to give us a taste of general character, even if not 100% same as life? While many count out YT audio quality, some channels prove one can definitely tell the RELATIVE differences between A-B-C.
I think you make perfect sense when you say "RELATIVE" . . . I've tried to get this across to a LOT of folks who say such and such a system "sounds great". What in fact they are saying is that THEIR system sounds great . . . relatively speaking :-)
Dealer for Coda? 😮
Motorola bi-polar transistors
I stay away from Class A radiators.
I guessed lack of Omega-3 fatty acids….wrong again!
Recommendation: trade the Tesla in for a Porsche Turbo 992.2.
My days of ICE vehicles are over. Had plenty of Porsches but I’m happy with the Tesla Y for what it does in total
Pricing on gear like this is crazy.
“ A Senior Moment “, now that’s rich.
Ouch, 175K!! It's looks cool as ice though.
To me it would be interesting to have a "scientific" explanation why my Luxman 20 watt classe A amplifier consumes 230 watt and the Gryphon Apex consumes 3700 watt at 1000 Watt Biais High. It's not a linear ratio. Thank you Adrian
It's a good question. Problem is different manufacturers may use different definitions of Class A. Also, the "efficiency" of the design may also play a part
My tomatoes turned rotten at the end of the video
Lol
Bro you scare the hell out of me i was planning to buy the Apex.
You should still go listen if you are serious
The ultra-highend brand you should have added to your portfolio is Ypsilon, not Gryphon - just a friendly advice from Norway 🙂
Thanks. Maybe one day I’ll be able to experience it in my own system
I think Class-A is overrated. At least I wouldn't like to have this monster in my room. - Thanks for the honesty!
Thanks
I have to agree on the monster part :-) . . . when you have to have at LEAST two or more people help you MOVE the thing, things are ALREADY out of control LOL . .
Class A is fine if well implemented but not necessary when something like the Daniel Hertz Maria comes along (that apparently sounds really VERY fine) that costs a FRACTION of the Gryphon and that a 5 year old can actually carry on his or her own.
Adrian, if the music itself isn’t engaging, then it simply isn’t going to get any better……l, it’s time to send it back, no regrets whatsoever.
Did you watch the whole video, chief?
you didn't see the climax at the end . . . it WAS all good in the end albeit even WITH that kind of cash, I wouldn't give Gryphon all that money :-) WAY too much $ spent on all that complexity. and outward looks that one has to pay extraordinary money for . . . better or comparable can be had for less
Reason why there are no buttons is Danes are known for having very small hands and short fingers.
You’ve never been to Denmark… I think you are thinking about another appendage
As you said earlier you’re in an industrial unit and prey to all sorts of fluctuations in power, not just from the grid but you neighbouring businesses too. A dedicated power line would likely be out of the question, and power conditioning may not do the trick. But if I was auditioning and selling expensive gear I’d want some kind of monitoring device on my fuse panel to see if I’m experiencing any voltage anomalies during the day.
The more into class A the more linear part of the transition curve you are using. No magic.
Higher bias current will be more linear and have less amplitude of higher order harmonics of distortion. So higher bias will sound somewhat different than lower current bias of an amplifier.
Not necessarily better, but different.
Its funny 🤣
Talk to Jay audio labs about the amplifiers
😂
I'm always amazed at how audiophiles can hear the differences from "memory". I don't know if I would be able to hear subtle differences between a lot equipment unless I was to A/B compare it with the same recordings. I suppose it is a learned and honed skill. I used to work in the labs at a Molson's brewery and the best people for participating on the taste panels were the guys who, how do I put this...maybe drank a bit too much. They were finely tuned tasting machines.
lol, I can relate. I love cigars. Maybe too much. I've done blind tastings of my collection and can tell within about 10 mins which I am smoking. That's when you know you are an addict!
@@adrianlow2114 I might not be an addicted audiophile, but I'm loving your channel!
@@markzurowski3627 thanks!
I heard from a friend who was so lucky to hear it on a maxed out system that it was overall amazing with a gigantic bass presence and floating voices, but still a tiny bit digital in sound.
I can't imagine having to wait 40-45 min to play music.
My initial guess was that you did not have it in Class A bias, I was correct!
Lol
Adrian, been watching your videos for about 2 years. Never seen you so "flustered" over a listening experience. Even after adjusting the bias on the Apex and stating that the sound was very good, it still seemed that you had a small amount of uncertainty about the Gryphon combo. Similar to having great excitement and anticipation on a first date, only to have the initial impressions fall extremely short. You seemed emotionally drained by the experience.
The good news is that it's gotten a lot better since the first impressions. I'll do a follow up with more details
Why all that power? Only using a few watts with reasonable sensitive speakers… can someone explain, using the laws of electricity like ohm… no jidajidajida
😂😂😂
@@muahaha5929 why if you don’t use it… it seems we are buying numbers instead of gear….
Imagine driving 170 kph on the German highway. You can do that with a 70 Hp little town car, or with a 400 Hp German limousine. In both cases you drive equally as fast, but the experience is totally different. You probably only use 25% of the power in the limousine, that is one of the reason the ride is smooth and comfortable.
@@robinr5787not the same here, at a constant speed in the same car there is no difference. The car with 400hp is heavier has beter suspension, seats and is more solent. Same car different engine should behave the same at constant speed.
It depends on a few things. One is the sensitivity of the speaker you love. Not everyone likes speakers that are also in the mid 90s sensitivity. Power requirement doubles every 3dB increase. If you enjoy volume peaks over 100dB , the required power goes
Up very quickly.
On a ergonomy side… Tesla is the worst system currently on road… always have to look the middle of the car to do something… not your eyes on the road… and vocal commander not as fast and reliable than a nob (when people on the car, noise, etc… )
Do you have a Tesla?
People how can afford this amp don't care about electricity bills
Short story long.
Promo'SM 💦
Totally exuberant””” look at me””” design . Waste of $$$$$
Gryphon is “ waste of money”???
Buhahhahahahaha grow up little man
IMO utterly ridiculous spending $180k USD on an amplifier. For those doing so have more money than common sense. I get it why people seek them but I think it’s a little sad spending that much on a sound system. And I know there’s lot out there who say if you have it might as well spend it.. but that’s still sad.
You should cry about that a little more
What's on the docket for today? Yelling at the sky in the r/superman#1 forum
@@AmbientAudioDystopia
You’ve clearly lost touch with reality. You’re in the the more I spend the better and happier I will be.. too bad. You break from it eventually
@@robclendenning2806you seem bitter and quite a pathetic hypocrite. Do you not live in this modern world with the rest of us? Do you use currency? Do you not buy and maybe pay more for items that you enjoy more than others? Could be whole milk vs 1%? Doesn't matter if it's 50 cents more or 50 million more, i guarantee you do, so get off your high horse.
Dullard.
Now it is so cliche again and again , sounds bad and suddenly ohhh it became good , oh man you are talking sh***it
Or, just learn from the man. You have the right to stay away from this channel.
This man is delusional. Typical audiophile nonsense.
Why?
Yes, why? is it because most of us can't afford this? I know I can't . . . but it doesn't make Adrian delusional
I used to be in that camp many many years ago, but I realized I just didn’t know any better because I hadn’t heard that high-level gear before.
Its like a gas pedal, you have to find out@@veroman007
Again a why? I think Adrian is one of the most honest audiophile on UA-cam. I have little experience in this price range, but can often relate to his findings, even in lower systems.