@@piotrklimeczek4658 I agree Prit Buttar is a remarkably good author. Also Douglas E Nash Sr. His history of the 4th SS Panzer Korps from the middle of 1944 to their end is another set of books worth seeking out. If you want a non propaganda/bias Russian author try anything by Valeriy Zamulin, his books on the Battle of Kursk dispels many of the myths surrounding this epic battle. Beautifully presented with very good maps
Really insightful episode. I found Dr. Stahel describing the German Panzer Generals’ preoccupation with their public images particularly interesting/disturbing.
and it is the reason why most of the cold war era history of ww2, especially the eastern front absolutely needs "revisionism". If you want the case for why history is not in fact written by the victors, look no further than the case of the German generals.
I remember reading Guderian's book "Panzer Leader" in my misbegotten youth and was so impressed at the time; I came to regard all things Wehrmacht as the ultimate expression of warfare in WW2. I fell into the category of the school of thought that the honorable German Army only lost due to Hitler's intervening in the decisions of the "professionals" excuse. The more I learn over the years, the more I see how very complaisant was the German Generals, SS or not, and indeed the vast majority of the common soldiers as well in the crimes against the Jews and the Soviets. (Not to say that the allies hands are clean either, but that's another kettle of fish.) I hope that we may have David aboard again to discuss the other three Generals in his book. I shall have to obtain a copy of his book when funds permit, and when it will not threaten a divorce...LOL. Lovely presentation and many happy returns to the birthday boy!
Juxtapose these letters with that horrible little Bantam book “Stuka Pilot” by Rudel. Fascination and mythology assigned to this hateful man and his love and adulation of Hitler always mystified me. The man was a full on fanatical Nazi, was in many ways totally incompetent as an observer of reality. Rudel to his dying day always claimed Hitler was a genius, with a total grasp of every aspect of the real struggle. Rudel’s last act as a flight commander was to order his pilots to risk their lives as they surrendered to destroy their obsolete aircraft by crash landing them on an American airfield. Always thought the just desserts for Rudel was to have handed him over to the Soviets. And like the book “Panzer Leader,” it created a self serving justification for those who actively supported the horror that was the Nazi’s.
I'm still working through his book on Kiev now, and now I want to read his new book. Stahel is brilliant in his way of approaching topics. Thanks again for the good job.
David on your birthday you're supposed to get presents not give them to us!! Thanks so much, happy birthday from London. WW2TV endlessly fascinating as usual, just so interesting
This is amazing. Recognizing variations in how people write is just the kind of social detail I absolutely love. How did they write, what did they think, etc. etc. so adds to the operational details and makes certain things make sense that wouldn't otherwise. For instance, my ancestors three generations ago spoke differently than I do and when you read their letters to each other it is so different from letters we write today. The idea that Dr. Stahel would realize a difference in how individual alphabetic letters were formed and talk on it is remarkable. You don't get that kind of depth very often. I was watching the preview for Hulu's Shogun and listened to an advisor talk about how he had to show the actors how different the people of the 1600s Japan spoked, moved, and engaged in conversation and ritual. Imagine taking into consideration that these generals had wives. Who were they? Well it is worth study and reflection.
The slide at 55.15 shows the covers of a couple of books. The cover photograph of the one on the left, Nazi Policy on the Eastern Front 1941, includes Karl Wolff. Tio me, the sight of that bastard is always striking because I remember his appearances in the BBC's old World at War. When the show first aired I was a little kid, and he came across to me as a confused old man, which is why I always feel so sick when I see pics like this one where he's in company with Himmler et als. And there are SO MANY of them. He was obviously complicit, and my memory of him in those interviews - a well-off elderly gent in a very nice home - feels like a punch in the gut.
There were many war criminals in both Germany and Japan who were not held accountable for their crimes. The expediency motivated by the Allies desire to quickly create functional civil and in Germany’s case military institutions to oppose either the Soviet Bloc or the Communist Chinese was a primary reason for a blind eye approach.
@@cybertronian2005 It doesn't surprise me that you mention that fact. After all Islam is a very antiemetic faith as practiced by those "true believers." I recall that image as I watched all of those episodes.
Great talk. Stahel's works are right up there with Glanz in terms of authoritative works on the eastern front. Never fails to present nuanced and complicated topics in a digestible manner.
Woody & David, yet another superb presentation! I don't know Woody how you put out a quality show after a quality show. Thank you so much!! I'm so angry at myself for missing this one!
A great presentation by David had to leave it live as busy at home, just caught it up now on a rerun. A fantastic insight into what was written by Guderians wife etc. Thank you David and Woody on a new subject to me
This is fascinating!! WOW!! I never knew or would have thought about this angle to research and write about. Excellent. Now I have another book to get. Thank you both. Too bad I was asleep when you started broadcasting live. Have a great day.
I'm sitting here in our family room rewatching the program. Yes, my mind is wide open to learn new information about WW2; whether it reinforces my understanding or challenges my understanding of these incredible events.
@@WW2TV I'm looking forward to that presentation. I'm a retired guy and my primary occupation now is a babysitter for my grandson. And watching your channel and continuing my readings of WW2
Happy Birthday David and thank you both for the great content. So much insight and passion, masterful presentation and great interview. Appreciate it your hard work.
Heinz Jr. is no mug, either. He writes a bit like his father, very clear and to the point. It is very unlikely that the Guderians were ever anything but meticulous about their communications with each other or anyone else. What was written is likely to have been essential, with window dressing like "vocation", etc.
For me, being 65+, I've been reading about the German Wehrmacht and the Panzers since 1971. All those years, reading Rommel Papers, Panzer General, Panzer Battles, Lost Victories, etc etc etc, and now the historians like Dr. Citino and others have disclosed the terrible crimes of the Wehrmacht and the generals of the Getman Army. Yes, I grew up in the Cold War, and the terrible crimes committed by them was suppressed because the West needed West Germany and it's citizens to be partners in defending Western Europe against the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries.
I had 2 second cousins who were WW2 Marines and fought in those terrible island hopping campaigns. One just got over the pain, one hated the Japs till his passing. In the spring of '88 I went over to his house to pick him up in my car and I thought he was going to punch me! He was so furious that I pulled into his driveway in my Honda Accord. He dressed me down for buying a "Jap car". I truly felt bad and didn't know what he had gone through in the war. These guys didn't discuss it with us kids.
I just have to praise David for being one of the VERY few, maybe the only one, who for me, can throw loads of details and mix them with personal stories without overwhelming the reader or creating a mind numbing data fest. I listen to his audiobooks and they are great! I have his books on Barbarossa, Moscow Retreat (in progress). I hope he considers doing a book on the woefully under examined Caucusus Campaign in future. Everything is about Stalingrad and Army Gp B, little on Gp A.
I find it strange that Margarete's support and enthusiam for her country and family should be regarded as odd in any way. She was a patriot and loved her husband and children. The second world war was total war, my mum was a teenager during the war and worked making uniforms in a big factory in Leeds....whenever a big thing eg El Alamein, or a big raid was announced on the radio, they all cheered like hell. Of course women were involved, they had a big emotional involvement....worrying about loved ones, bringing up children alone, air raids and just trying to make ends meet. My mum lost her loved one, a young pilot officer, kilked at Arnhem...he was only a kid himself. German women would feel just the same ,and worry and grieve just the same too. I just don't undetstand why anyone would think that that would be a dtrange way for them to behave.
The language discussion is very interesting, I remember a family story in which my uncle when very young worked and lived in Germany post war translated between his North German employer and a company in the South of Germany.
You can have David on here A 1,000 more times and I would watch and enjoy every one of em. Him, Glantz, and Citino are probably my 3 favorite authors period, not just ww2.
In a word, WOW. Margarethe & Heinz's surviving letters!!! (yes, the killing fields era ones got yeeted out postwar, by self-promotion/ self-preservation, etc.). While the video covers mainly those two, the snippets of life back home in militarized Germany of the youth hero-worshipping these Panzertruppe Generalls like sports figures makes chilling, but relatable sense. David "never fails to deliver the goods" Stahel, I salute you & Happy Birthday too! Woody--we need him back for that opposing view of Hoepner (hinted at here, but absent) & letters/ calls about his sons at war.
Female partners have played a big role in enhancing their martial male counterparts since time immemorial. In the Third Reich a woman’s place was in the salon and the powder room, influencing and gathering intel for her partner. The women benefited from the preferments of rank, maybe more than their spouses.
This is fantastic. Heinz not worrying his sons, there are many possible reasons. For my money, he wouldn't want to check on them through official channels in a way that would be embarrassing. He can't do a thing about their situation. The very last thing he'd want to do would be to show undue concern to them, to look weak, to reveal worry. Since he can't do anything for them anyhow, he thinks about them as little as possible so that he himself can continue functioning. He knows he'll hear if they are killed or wounded. Otherwise, no news is good news. That's my guess, for the penny it is worth. As for the wife switching subjects. She's trying to come across as scatter brained, just a woman. Even if the Gestapo later interrogates her about the letter, she could shrug and say, "was that bit important? I couldn't make heads or tails of it, but I thought Heinz might find it interesting. After all it was from our son and they are both soldiers. I'm just his little wife. Naturally, Aunt Hilda's visit was more important to me." I find that as plausible as any other reason and of course she knew it was important and wanted to tell Heinz.
Bugger and Damn yet another book to acquire.😉Another great show I hope David or someone else can do even more on an really insightful subject. And yes one of the first books I bought when I started working many moons ago, was Panzer Leader and totally bought into good german v bad N**i. Thanks Paul & David for an interesting presentation
Very interesting show! I never would have imagined the personal letters had not been looked at yet. I’d be interested to know how the letters track with what Guderian said in Panzer Leader, as well as with what we think we know about the campaign. It was curious that 95% of the discussion was about Guderian. Though I guess Guderian himself would be pleased that his fame superseded the others. 😃 Looking forward to reading the book, this podcast made it sound much more interesting than what I thought it was going to be.
One theory I would have about why even the infantery division generals would get "fan mail" by Hitler youth kids is the way military units in germany were formed during WW2, especially "standart" infantery divisions. In Germany the recruitmeant system for divisions has historically been based on the prussian system and therefore its a very regionalized recruitmeant. You basically have an administrative region and assign, based on population, etc., how many divisions could be raised from that region. Then these divisions are solely raised with soldiers from that area. Meaning most german soldiers were, until 1944 when it collapsed, with people from their region or even city in the same unit. This means that the kids would know the random no name generals of some pointless infantery divisions in the middle of nowhere because their family members, friends and locals were all part of it. Its similar to how the football club fans work in germany. You have a few very big clubs like Bayern Munich with fans all over Germany, but below that you have in the second and third league a LOT of very local clubs who pretty mcuh only have fans from their home region. So while everybody wants an autograph fro mthe big and famous "intenrational" celebreties, you also want one from your local guys who are representing your region and your family members in the war. It certainly wasnt as bad (and redicilous) with the regionalism in the Wehrmacht as in the imperial german army during WW1, especially at the start (the bavarian army refusing to send troops to east prussia when the russians invaded in 1914 for example). TheWehrmacht was really good at generating cohesion between the soldiers horizontically and up the chain of command vertically with this system (also that, unlike WW1, officers were actually doing the same stuff the "grunt" soldiers did, including the dying part). Funnily enoguh you could make the argument that after the founding of a unified germany in 1871 the first actually unified german military force was not the army, but the navy and the colonial troops. They were recruited from all over germany into a new german force, unlike the army which until WW1 was basically just "former kingdom/duchy X" armies put under overall Prussian command (propably more similar to how NATO would work in case of war with member armies being put under overall US command).
OMG! I was just floored when I heard David talk about the alphabet prior to the 20th century being different than what has now become the regular German alphabet- the non Cyrillic alphabet. Just that, in itself, was worth the price of admission for this talk!
Him, Buttar and David Glantz are some of my favorites. Except Glantz’s writing is so dry, but I like it. I think Stahel is the new standard for the Eastern Front
Howdy folks! Great look at Dave Stahel’s new book on Germans fighting on the Eastern Front. Unique use of top generals’ letters to friends and family in1941. Don’t miss it.
Guderian and Rommel sound startlingly similar to MacArthur in their own self-regard. Success isn't winning battles, lots of guys do that. Success is being famous.
"I was just ordering everything:" Speaking as someone who worked for thirty-plus years at the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration as a reference specialist (retired in 2023), "everything" is a dirty word to archivists.😜 Hey, great work though, and I look forward to reading the book in question.
We Americans fell in love with the Germans who were best at fighting the Soviets. Or perhaps, those who were best at painting themselves as the best. We needed them because it quickly became obvious after the war ended that the Soviets were the new threat in Europe. It is a bit embarrassing today, maybe, but they were useful and it did work to save the west from Communism. It wasn't the worst crime in history that Guderian, Manstein, Kesselring all died free men, considering the trade off. Western Europe never fell. (Now let's get our act together here in America and make sure it doesn't fall to the Russians today).
Please understand, so starting in junior high, 1971, through graduation, 1976, my parents weren't supportive of me reading about the wehrmacht lufftwafe and German navy. They grew up in the 30's and 40's and my reading about the German arms was appalling to them. BUT, I was duped by the propaganda of the times which separated the "good" German units and commanders, from the Nazi thugs and criminals. It was very black and white. Hitler, Himmler, SS, Gestapo, etc.were the bad guys. Guys like Rommel and his AgricayKorp were the good guys. Strange to have my whole paradigm about them completely overturned. But it's great to finally realize that my parents were right! Glorifying the Nazi land, sea, and air forces was wrong.
Studying something isn't glorifying it. War is universally pretty terrible. Even the "good" armies do some pretty terrible things. Aside from actual atrocities, the basic disruption to goods and services usually result in widespread disease and famine. Studying the Wehrmacht is no different than studying the armies of Alexander, Ghenghis Khan, Saladin, Hernan Cortez, or Vo Nguyen Giap.
Fabulous show! We mustn't forget that in a society (not just Nazi Germany) where women could not have power outside the home, they would channel their ambition, intellect and energy the only place they could; their husbands' careers. The importance wives could have is illustrated by the contrast between Goebbels' and Himmler's wives. The former was wealthy and social, while the latter was universally disliked (including by Himmler). This would have real effects, such as Himmler's approach to SS extra-marital sex, the way he considered the SS his family and how much he traveled.
I specialize in Philosophy of Language, and it just strikes me as incredibly significant that groups within the Germany society might have litterally been speaking different languages, creating seperate classes, education, and everthing that goes with it. “The limits of my language mean the limits of my world", Wittgenstein.
@@WW2TV You've pulled data on that? How would you know? I'm simply saying he rambles alot prior to answering, and his answers otherwise are insightful with some interesting facts when he actually gets to the point. Take the feedback.
David Stahel is one of the biggest writers of the Eastern Front. Thanks for this great interview.
And Dr Pritt
@@piotrklimeczek4658 I agree Prit Buttar is a remarkably good author. Also Douglas E Nash Sr. His history of the 4th SS Panzer Korps from the middle of 1944 to their end is another set of books worth seeking out. If you want a non propaganda/bias Russian author try anything by Valeriy Zamulin, his books on the Battle of Kursk dispels many of the myths surrounding this epic battle. Beautifully presented with very good maps
@@ba-gg6jo and do not forget the "daddy" of them all David Glantz.
A friend called just before we learned that it is David's birthday, and I only came back after the stream ended. So happy birthday David.
Really insightful episode. I found Dr. Stahel describing the German Panzer Generals’ preoccupation with their public images particularly interesting/disturbing.
and it is the reason why most of the cold war era history of ww2, especially the eastern front absolutely needs "revisionism". If you want the case for why history is not in fact written by the victors, look no further than the case of the German generals.
I remember reading Guderian's book "Panzer Leader" in my misbegotten youth and was so impressed at the time; I came to regard all things Wehrmacht as the ultimate expression of warfare in WW2. I fell into the category of the school of thought that the honorable German Army only lost due to Hitler's intervening in the decisions of the "professionals" excuse. The more I learn over the years, the more I see how very complaisant was the German Generals, SS or not, and indeed the vast majority of the common soldiers as well in the crimes against the Jews and the Soviets. (Not to say that the allies hands are clean either, but that's another kettle of fish.) I hope that we may have David aboard again to discuss the other three Generals in his book. I shall have to obtain a copy of his book when funds permit, and when it will not threaten a divorce...LOL. Lovely presentation and many happy returns to the birthday boy!
Try the library. If enough folks check out an author, they buy other books by same
@davidlavigne207 - You're not the only person to be duped by post WWII 'Clean Wehrmacht' mythology. I certainly did.
Juxtapose these letters with that horrible little Bantam book “Stuka Pilot” by Rudel. Fascination and mythology assigned to this hateful man and his love and adulation of Hitler always mystified me. The man was a full on fanatical Nazi, was in many ways totally incompetent as an observer of reality.
Rudel to his dying day always claimed Hitler was a genius, with a total grasp of every aspect of the real struggle. Rudel’s last act as a flight commander was to order his pilots to risk their lives as they surrendered to destroy their obsolete aircraft by crash landing them on an American airfield.
Always thought the just desserts for Rudel was to have handed him over to the Soviets.
And like the book “Panzer Leader,” it created a self serving justification for those who actively supported the horror that was the Nazi’s.
Always enjoy David Stahel’s talks!
I'm still working through his book on Kiev now, and now I want to read his new book. Stahel is brilliant in his way of approaching topics. Thanks again for the good job.
David on your birthday you're supposed to get presents not give them to us!! Thanks so much, happy birthday from London.
WW2TV endlessly fascinating as usual, just so interesting
Thanks for that!
Unless you're a Hobbit of course!
I will never get enough of David Stahel on Woody's channel! ; )
David Stahel is a treasure.
This is amazing. Recognizing variations in how people write is just the kind of social detail I absolutely love. How did they write, what did they think, etc. etc. so adds to the operational details and makes certain things make sense that wouldn't otherwise. For instance, my ancestors three generations ago spoke differently than I do and when you read their letters to each other it is so different from letters we write today. The idea that Dr. Stahel would realize a difference in how individual alphabetic letters were formed and talk on it is remarkable. You don't get that kind of depth very often. I was watching the preview for Hulu's Shogun and listened to an advisor talk about how he had to show the actors how different the people of the 1600s Japan spoked, moved, and engaged in conversation and ritual. Imagine taking into consideration that these generals had wives. Who were they? Well it is worth study and reflection.
The slide at 55.15 shows the covers of a couple of books. The cover photograph of the one on the left, Nazi Policy on the Eastern Front 1941, includes Karl Wolff. Tio me, the sight of that bastard is always striking because I remember his appearances in the BBC's old World at War. When the show first aired I was a little kid, and he came across to me as a confused old man, which is why I always feel so sick when I see pics like this one where he's in company with Himmler et als. And there are SO MANY of them. He was obviously complicit, and my memory of him in those interviews - a well-off elderly gent in a very nice home - feels like a punch in the gut.
He was a convert to Islam in his final years or so I'm told
There were many war criminals in both Germany and Japan who were not held accountable for their crimes. The expediency motivated by the Allies desire to quickly create functional civil and in Germany’s case military institutions to oppose either the Soviet Bloc or the Communist Chinese was a primary reason for a blind eye approach.
@@cybertronian2005 It doesn't surprise me that you mention that fact. After all Islam is a very antiemetic faith as practiced by those "true believers." I recall that image as I watched all of those episodes.
This was a superb presentation. David Stahel is so good to hear talk about this, thank you Woody for the great guests you bring on like David!
Utterly fascinating from David, his best so far on here I think. This take on the Panzer Generals is unique to my experience. Thank you both.
I bought his book and he is exploring fascinating new areas in WWII history. Hope he keeps writing new ones.
Woody/David. What a fabulous and unusual presentation! I have really enjoyed this different approach. Thanks, Bob
You are very welcome
Great show, gentlemen. Thank you.
Great talk. Stahel's works are right up there with Glanz in terms of authoritative works on the eastern front. Never fails to present nuanced and complicated topics in a digestible manner.
Couldn't agree more!
Woody & David, yet another superb presentation! I don't know Woody how you put out a quality show after a quality show. Thank you so much!! I'm so angry at myself for missing this one!
Happy Birthday David.
Have enjoyed and gained a new perspective from your works on the Eastern Front
A great presentation by David had to leave it live as busy at home, just caught it up now on a rerun. A fantastic insight into what was written by Guderians wife etc. Thank you David and Woody on a new subject to me
Our pleasure Kevin
This is fascinating!! WOW!! I never knew or would have thought about this angle to research and write about. Excellent. Now I have another book to get. Thank you both. Too bad I was asleep when you started broadcasting live. Have a great day.
We love bringing you new ideas
I'm sitting here in our family room rewatching the program. Yes, my mind is wide open to learn new information about WW2; whether it reinforces my understanding or challenges my understanding of these incredible events.
I've asked David back to do a part 2
@@WW2TV I'm looking forward to that presentation. I'm a retired guy and my primary occupation now is a babysitter for my grandson. And watching your channel and continuing my readings of WW2
Absorbing!! Great slides and quoted materials. Love the tenacity of archival digging.
Happy Birthday David and thank you both for the great content. So much insight and passion, masterful presentation and great interview. Appreciate it your hard work.
Thank you Gentlemen. David is a very interesting speaker.
Love David's presentation of his work! Thank you everyone for bringing this to us.
Heinz Jr. is no mug, either. He writes a bit like his father, very clear and to the point. It is very unlikely that the Guderians were ever anything but meticulous about their communications with each other or anyone else. What was written is likely to have been essential, with window dressing like "vocation", etc.
Really interesting presentation! There are endless ways to analyze and review WWII, and I love it!
So much details and intresting behind the scenes stuff! High value content!
That was such a good episode from David I've just rewatched it.
David has a voice that adds to the enjoyment of military history! More, Woody, please!
For me, being 65+, I've been reading about the German Wehrmacht and the Panzers since 1971. All those years, reading Rommel Papers, Panzer General, Panzer Battles, Lost Victories, etc etc etc, and now the historians like Dr. Citino and others have disclosed the terrible crimes of the Wehrmacht and the generals of the Getman Army. Yes, I grew up in the Cold War, and the terrible crimes committed by them was suppressed because the West needed West Germany and it's citizens to be partners in defending Western Europe against the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries.
Yep, a lot of truth in that
I had 2 second cousins who were WW2 Marines and fought in those terrible island hopping campaigns. One just got over the pain, one hated the Japs till his passing. In the spring of '88 I went over to his house to pick him up in my car and I thought he was going to punch me! He was so furious that I pulled into his driveway in my Honda Accord. He dressed me down for buying a "Jap car". I truly felt bad and didn't know what he had gone through in the war. These guys didn't discuss it with us kids.
Thanks for sharing your family history
I always enjoyed the letters from Rommel to his "Dearest Lu" that were included in the Rommel Papers by Desmond Young
I just have to praise David for being one of the VERY few, maybe the only one, who for me, can throw loads of details and mix them with personal stories without overwhelming the reader or creating a mind numbing data fest. I listen to his audiobooks and they are great! I have his books on Barbarossa, Moscow Retreat (in progress). I hope he considers doing a book on the woefully under examined Caucusus Campaign in future. Everything is about Stalingrad and Army Gp B, little on Gp A.
I find it strange that Margarete's support and enthusiam for her country and family should be regarded as odd in any way. She was a patriot and loved her husband and children.
The second world war was total war, my mum was a teenager during the war and worked making uniforms in a big factory in Leeds....whenever a big thing eg El Alamein, or a big raid was announced on the radio, they all cheered like hell.
Of course women were involved, they had a big emotional involvement....worrying about loved ones, bringing up children alone, air raids and just trying to make ends meet.
My mum lost her loved one, a young pilot officer, kilked at Arnhem...he was only a kid himself.
German women would feel just the same ,and worry and grieve just the same too.
I just don't undetstand why anyone would think that that would be a dtrange way for them to behave.
There's support for one's Country and then support for Nazis
Well said
It's not easy living in a totalitarian socialist regime like nazi germany, also not many people are capable of being a Deitrich Bonhoeffer
Yet, many thousands of German women DIDN'T join the Nazi party
Dang! Not up early enough today. Looking forward to this show.
The most fascinating presentation i've seen here. i was completely mesmerised. in a good way ha ha. thank you david stahel and WW2TV.
Great show
The language discussion is very interesting, I remember a family story in which my uncle when very young worked and lived in Germany post war translated between his North German employer and a company in the South of Germany.
Fascinating subject and video, what a great video
You can have David on here A 1,000 more times and I would watch and enjoy every one of em. Him, Glantz, and Citino are probably my 3 favorite authors period, not just ww2.
In a word, WOW. Margarethe & Heinz's surviving letters!!! (yes, the killing fields era ones got yeeted out postwar, by self-promotion/ self-preservation, etc.). While the video covers mainly those two, the snippets of life back home in militarized Germany of the youth hero-worshipping these Panzertruppe Generalls like sports figures makes chilling, but relatable sense. David "never fails to deliver the goods" Stahel, I salute you & Happy Birthday too! Woody--we need him back for that opposing view of Hoepner (hinted at here, but absent) & letters/ calls about his sons at war.
Female partners have played a big role in enhancing their martial male counterparts since time immemorial. In the Third Reich a woman’s place was in the salon and the powder room, influencing and gathering intel for her partner. The women benefited from the preferments of rank, maybe more than their spouses.
What a treat to listen to in bed tonight. David Stahel is so engaging and such an interesting speaker!
4:30 yes he is right about the german texts, it can be very difficulty even if german is your nativ launguage
This is fantastic.
Heinz not worrying his sons, there are many possible reasons. For my money, he wouldn't want to check on them through official channels in a way that would be embarrassing. He can't do a thing about their situation. The very last thing he'd want to do would be to show undue concern to them, to look weak, to reveal worry. Since he can't do anything for them anyhow, he thinks about them as little as possible so that he himself can continue functioning. He knows he'll hear if they are killed or wounded. Otherwise, no news is good news.
That's my guess, for the penny it is worth.
As for the wife switching subjects. She's trying to come across as scatter brained, just a woman. Even if the Gestapo later interrogates her about the letter, she could shrug and say, "was that bit important? I couldn't make heads or tails of it, but I thought Heinz might find it interesting. After all it was from our son and they are both soldiers. I'm just his little wife. Naturally, Aunt Hilda's visit was more important to me."
I find that as plausible as any other reason and of course she knew it was important and wanted to tell Heinz.
Bugger and Damn yet another book to acquire.😉Another great show I hope David or someone else can do even more on an really insightful subject. And yes one of the first books I bought when I started working many moons ago, was Panzer Leader and totally bought into good german v bad N**i. Thanks Paul & David for an interesting presentation
Very interesting show! I never would have imagined the personal letters had not been looked at yet.
I’d be interested to know how the letters track with what Guderian said in Panzer Leader, as well as with what we think we know about the campaign.
It was curious that 95% of the discussion was about Guderian. Though I guess Guderian himself would be pleased that his fame superseded the others. 😃
Looking forward to reading the book, this podcast made it sound much more interesting than what I thought it was going to be.
One theory I would have about why even the infantery division generals would get "fan mail" by Hitler youth kids is the way military units in germany were formed during WW2, especially "standart" infantery divisions.
In Germany the recruitmeant system for divisions has historically been based on the prussian system and therefore its a very regionalized recruitmeant. You basically have an administrative region and assign, based on population, etc., how many divisions could be raised from that region. Then these divisions are solely raised with soldiers from that area. Meaning most german soldiers were, until 1944 when it collapsed, with people from their region or even city in the same unit. This means that the kids would know the random no name generals of some pointless infantery divisions in the middle of nowhere because their family members, friends and locals were all part of it.
Its similar to how the football club fans work in germany. You have a few very big clubs like Bayern Munich with fans all over Germany, but below that you have in the second and third league a LOT of very local clubs who pretty mcuh only have fans from their home region.
So while everybody wants an autograph fro mthe big and famous "intenrational" celebreties, you also want one from your local guys who are representing your region and your family members in the war.
It certainly wasnt as bad (and redicilous) with the regionalism in the Wehrmacht as in the imperial german army during WW1, especially at the start (the bavarian army refusing to send troops to east prussia when the russians invaded in 1914 for example). TheWehrmacht was really good at generating cohesion between the soldiers horizontically and up the chain of command vertically with this system (also that, unlike WW1, officers were actually doing the same stuff the "grunt" soldiers did, including the dying part).
Funnily enoguh you could make the argument that after the founding of a unified germany in 1871 the first actually unified german military force was not the army, but the navy and the colonial troops. They were recruited from all over germany into a new german force, unlike the army which until WW1 was basically just "former kingdom/duchy X" armies put under overall Prussian command (propably more similar to how NATO would work in case of war with member armies being put under overall US command).
OMG! I was just floored when I heard David talk about the alphabet prior to the 20th century being different than what has now become the regular German alphabet- the non Cyrillic alphabet. Just that, in itself, was worth the price of admission for this talk!
Nothing but respect.
Him, Buttar and David Glantz are some of my favorites. Except Glantz’s writing is so dry, but I like it.
I think Stahel is the new standard for the Eastern Front
Howdy folks! Great look at Dave Stahel’s new book on Germans fighting on the Eastern Front. Unique use of top generals’ letters to friends and family in1941. Don’t miss it.
Guderian and Rommel sound startlingly similar to MacArthur in their own self-regard. Success isn't winning battles, lots of guys do that. Success is being famous.
"I was just ordering everything:" Speaking as someone who worked for thirty-plus years at the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration as a reference specialist (retired in 2023), "everything" is a dirty word to archivists.😜 Hey, great work though, and I look forward to reading the book in question.
Missed the live show out of sheer ignorance....wow, what another goodie, Woody,
We Americans fell in love with the Germans who were best at fighting the Soviets. Or perhaps, those who were best at painting themselves as the best. We needed them because it quickly became obvious after the war ended that the Soviets were the new threat in Europe.
It is a bit embarrassing today, maybe, but they were useful and it did work to save the west from Communism. It wasn't the worst crime in history that Guderian, Manstein, Kesselring all died free men, considering the trade off. Western Europe never fell.
(Now let's get our act together here in America and make sure it doesn't fall to the Russians today).
I would say that western politicians are more than capable of destroying usa and europe....without any help from Russia
The Eastern Front expert from distant New Zealand. Cool! I'm curious. 👍
Please understand, so starting in junior high, 1971, through graduation, 1976, my parents weren't supportive of me reading about the wehrmacht lufftwafe and German navy. They grew up in the 30's and 40's and my reading about the German arms was appalling to them. BUT, I was duped by the propaganda of the times which separated the "good" German units and commanders, from the Nazi thugs and criminals. It was very black and white. Hitler, Himmler, SS, Gestapo, etc.were the bad guys. Guys like Rommel and his AgricayKorp were the good guys. Strange to have my whole paradigm about them completely overturned. But it's great to finally realize that my parents were right! Glorifying the Nazi land, sea, and air forces was wrong.
Studying something isn't glorifying it. War is universally pretty terrible. Even the "good" armies do some pretty terrible things. Aside from actual atrocities, the basic disruption to goods and services usually result in widespread disease and famine. Studying the Wehrmacht is no different than studying the armies of Alexander, Ghenghis Khan, Saladin, Hernan Cortez, or Vo Nguyen Giap.
The barbers chair talk was the from the world at war
not what expected
In a good way or a bad way?
The post cards look to be another aspect of Hitler's Cult of Personality extended to his Generals.
Fabulous show! We mustn't forget that in a society (not just Nazi Germany) where women could not have power outside the home, they would channel their ambition, intellect and energy the only place they could; their husbands' careers.
The importance wives could have is illustrated by the contrast between Goebbels' and Himmler's wives. The former was wealthy and social, while the latter was universally disliked (including by Himmler). This would have real effects, such as Himmler's approach to SS extra-marital sex, the way he considered the SS his family and how much he traveled.
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Did Hitler use this old style of writing?
I'm not sure he did
I specialize in Philosophy of Language, and it just strikes me as incredibly significant that groups within the Germany society might have litterally been speaking different languages, creating seperate classes, education, and everthing that goes with it. “The limits of my language mean the limits of my world", Wittgenstein.
Thank you
So frustrating to listsn to. Get to the point
The great majority of people love listening to David
@@WW2TV You've pulled data on that? How would you know? I'm simply saying he rambles alot prior to answering, and his answers otherwise are insightful with some interesting facts when he actually gets to the point. Take the feedback.
Yes, David's shows are always among the most popular I do