Expect more discussion videos soon 🤫 they’re pretty fun to make and I feel like we can have some good convos about the different topics I have in mind! This particular one is a topic that I haven’t seen mentioned much, but I would like to see what you guys think!
I feel like Dragon Ball Super was basically Toei trying to fix one problem (Dragon Ball Evolution) by creating even BIGGER problems. Don't get me wrong, there were good things to come out of it, but... they should've just let it die at GT...
Which doesn’t even make sense later in the manga considering Moro claimed to have consumed countless planets just in the 2 months between the fight on Namek and the one on Earth
I think the whole 28 planets statement would've been better if it was something like "Well, theres about 5000 planets with sentient life, but in terms of power only a handful reach the power that the average saiyan had back when they were around"
I mean they told you it was other universes that you didn’t know! So isn’t that enough we got different fighters that made it different and I enjoyed it, it’s always ppl who will find something to complain about. But hey it’s your opinion, not everyone will enjoy a series or a manga. It’s a lot of mangas that definitely better than the anime itself which I swear that American production needs to stick to original content it would be so much better
I think fights in DBS should take place in space. If you're introducing a multiverse and villains that are that strong, have them fight in space. The fights on earth or on some planet just feels rather limited. Fights in space have a lot of potential and you can get creative with it. Even though there are characters that can't breathe in space despite them being that strong. Who cares? Just have them create a ki barrier for them to breathe. Easy as that.
They should have it to where the fighters are so strong that they can survive in space without oxygen for a while and they can just planet hop with they start feeling weaker. It should be that simple right?
If you got a literall god tearing apart the universe in one episode How realistic is to introduce a even stronger form that can battle without a single earthquake or natural desaster happening during the entire fight ON THE SAME PLANET
Ki barrier, maybe some yardrat technique. Build it into lore. Whis has no problems in space, Goku is going down the angelic path, give him some more of those abilities. Beerus would probably be fine too, so just say Vegeta can survive because of destruction power or somethig.
Literally god ki. Beerus and whis can survive in space. Goku and vegeta has god ki. Instead of just saying “ki but stronger and regular guys cant sense it,” just give them new abilities lmao.
Friendly reminder that Toriyama had literally managed to have multiple infinite chances to have new stories and warriors with all the universes and instantly put all of the strongest fighters in one arc
Yeah. What if they do something similar to this, only Frieza is the main villain, and he's become so powerful that he attempts multiversal dominance? Or is able to achieve it? It could give us lots of backstories on the other universes. And maybe the strongest mortals in the multiverses(like Jiren, Top, Hit, U6 Saiyans, etc.) along with new characters band together to defeat Frieza for good. It could be good worldbuilding, and show how much of a threat Frieza has become. I feel like it could be a great final arc, if done right.
There's definitely more than just 28 planets with life, Shin probably only pays attention to 28. I mean Friezas empire conquered countless planets and civilizations, that's their thing. We know there are more planets with life and probably a lot of life, it's probably just Shins incompetence.
With only 28 planets is impossible for frieza empire to have had worked. Who is buying? Who is he wiping out of a planet? If there are only 28 planets, his whole army wouldnt make sense since when he wipes a planet he always leave one alive and recruit him.
I agree with how they should basically be battling in a bigger area and not just a small a$$ area considering there power and feats honestly they waisting it, a least a little bit
I really hate how Toriyama refuses to allow the saiyans to fight in space. When they were fighting Moro, and Vegeta told Goku they couldn't go any further because there was no more atmosphere, I was so disappointed. They have god forms now, but they are STILL unable to tackle the vaccum of space? FFS.
The problem with making these characters so ridiculously powerful is that you always have to up the stakes to a point where the whole multiverse is threatened to be destroyed. How can you raise the stakes any higher than everything that ever existed to be destroyed.
@@skatrrr wait maybe it just means 28 planets with intelligent life and the other ones are like primal beasts with no intelligence maybe it was meant to be taken literally as smart lifeforms
One of my biggest complaints with Dragon Ball is that the sense of scale has been so weird ever since OG Dragon Ball. It’s been almost 40 years and yet we STILL don’t know much about Earth. A planet is a big place yet it seems as if Toriyama never really cared about fleshing out Earth, it’s map, it’s people, it’s locations, etc. We only get passing glimpses in the RR Army and Pilaf arcs but that’s about it. In DBZ we’re introduced to a whole universe! Yet…we only ever really see Namek, glimpses of Otherworld , Yardrat, the Supreme Kai’s Planet…and that’s it. Hell, we barely see much of Earth besides more plains, waste lands and ruined cities. In DBS? We get AN ENTIRE MULTIVERSE!! And what do we see? Passing glances at the other universes…and that’s it. This problem with sense of scale and world building has been an issue in Dragon Ball since it’s beginnings. It seems like this is mainly a Toriyama issue because when we have other writers (Toyotaro, Toei staff writers, etc), we do get to see various locations, alien races and more. I’m hoping that, as the manga continues and (hopefully) the anime returns, we’ll see more world building. Great Videl Salad, keep up the good work! 👍
The 28 planets with life statement is just one of many inconsistencies of Toyotaro's manga, just like Toriyama's. Anyone that says that the DB and DBS manga don't have many inconsistencies/mistakes, hasn't read the mangas in a long time and hasn't analyzed them in detail.
I remember when goku went super sayian 3 for the first time and nearly destroyed a city as the entire world shook in an earthquake of power excreted from goku himself from hitting new heights of strength. Now he can power up, past the relative power of a typical god of destruction, and everyone just kinda chills and cheers him on.
4:00 To defend Superhero, they did get fairly varied with their fights (at least compared to Broly). The first fight takes place in the plains/piccolos yard(?), the second fight takes place around the red ribbon base (they even briefly go into a canyon area, that was cool). And then finally, Gohan and Gamma 1 fight in that underground area which looked gorgeous (although having an underground temple next to the base was kinda weird, was that intentional lore?)
Zeno: there's 28 planets. Vegeta: That doesn't seem right. I'm pretty sure I've conquered more planets than that. Zeno: *deadpans* there's 28 planets. Grand Priest: now now Zeno, no foreshadowing. Zeno: oh, right. Hehehehe Vegeta: i don't like where this is going.
Well tbf, it's a common trope in Dragonball that the gods despite the moniker, are incompetent at the best of times. The only ones who were helpful where Kami and King Kai. It's even been shown that Shin is horrible at his job of being a god of creation and Beerus is even worse given he destroys planets not because they're unsuitable for life but because they annoyed him and offloaded his job onto Frieza.
As a inpiring writer myself, not every fight needs to be expansion, just as long as the fights are interesting and showcase the character(s) abilities properly. Plus every fight doesn't need to be a spectacle unless necessary. People if you try and make every fight large and character(s) flashing, it can be overwhelming. For example The Black Goku arc, the fight really doesn't need to hope from location to location. As long as it's showed that the villain is a threat to the multiverse and show how large along he is achieving his plan.
While I agree with your points about spectacle not being necessary to demonstrate scope... As an *aspiring* writer, I don't think you should be proclaiming your work to be "inspiring" to others just yet. 😅
@@wijinsama I was quite certain you were misusing the word "inspire." However, because I'm aware that I don't always know every definition of a word, I went ahead and looked it up, just to make sure. in·spire /inˈspī(ə)r/ Learn to pronounce verb 1. fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, especially to do something creative. "his passion for romantic literature inspired him to begin writing" 2. breathe in (air); inhale. "they can expand their lungs and inspire enough gas to satisfy oxygen requirements" No, "inspiring" does not mean "to be in the works of creating something." And while, yes, I did think you meant "aspiring" (which doesn't necessarily imply amateur *capabilities*, merely being unpublished -- I consider myself an aspiring writer, for example), now I actually do think you're an amateur, at least when it comes to grammar and vocabulary.
@@wijinsama For completionism's sake: as·pire /əˈspī(ə)r/ Learn to pronounce verb 1. direct one's hopes or ambitions towards achieving something. "we never thought that we might aspire to those heights" This fits more in line with "being in the works of creating something." An "aspiring writer" is usually someone in the process of writing something, but as yet unpublished.
@@wijinsama no, that's aspiring. Not inspiring lol. You would think an "inspiring writer" would know the difference and yes, you are absolutely an amateur. You've proved that to be the case yourself lol
To put it bluntly, Dragon Ball has always had some type of issue in regards of lacking something. No matter the series within, there just isn't enough. Not enough explanation for the masses, Not enough proper thought into a power scale that has long since flown too far too quickly, Not enough worldbuilding despite the introduction of 12 more universes in Super or outer space in Z, but more than anything, Not enough backstory or explanation behind characters and/or their transformations. This one in particular has been an issue from the very start with Goku. If you disagree there, what about Tien? What about Yamcha? Think deeper about the origins of these characters, rather than what we're told. What do they have before they are in the story? When you get down to the core, all of the problems that exist in Dragon Ball as a series result from simply not having enough of it. There's some explanation of power scaling, some worldbuilding and larger scale fights, some lore behind certain characters, but there never is enough. And I think this is their marketing scheme; if everything was cut, dry, and to the point, discussion would be a lot less warrantable. However, at the same time, they make the mistake of leaving way too much up to interpretation. There are times when your interpretation is entirely what determines your opinion on an arc, or even the way the story gets told. Why? Because the foundation of what DB is giving is just not enough for what it promises. For the fuck of it, I'll go and list some characters, forms, and etc. that aren't completely explained in specifically the manga/anime, just off the dome (let's also ignore Goku for the sake of it): Almost every retcon ever, Dinosaurs never going extinct, Yamcha and Krillin's full backstory, Tien's race, The concept of ki and flying, Mr. Popo's race, The Ox King's origins beyond what was said, Science in regards to the inventions of Bulma's family and Capsule Corp, The history of Capsule Corp, The actual calculation behind Power Levels, ZENKAIS, The Ginyu Force and Freeza's races as a whole, Yardrat pre-Super, Lapis and Lazuli, SSJ grade multipliers, What truly occurs in time skips (whether it's flashbacks or not), Goten and Trunks not having a tail, SSJ3's multiplier, A majority of feats being misworded or not worded at all, SSJ Rose, SSJ Rage and Beast Gohan (literally anything?), Zamasu's techniques, The lore behind most of the God's hierarchy including Kais, The lore behind various warriors from the ToP (Jiren ironically was the most that we got), and etc. etc. because I thought of more examples than I realized I would. The point of these examples are to show you that there are going to be things someone else will think to ask that you won't, and it isn't going to always be asked because there are just that many things left unexplained.
“there's about 8500 planets with sentient life and counting, but only about 28 have individuals with the minimal power of an average saiyan or a very well-trained human”. with that statement, you fix the whole problem lol.
i feel what your saying. Back in the manga when all of the gods were fighting and they were supposed to be fighting at full power. it felt like they weren’t fighting like actual gods. I think their battle should’ve been on a higher scale than broly vs gogeta. I mean come on it’s GODS OF DESTRUCTIONS. But the fight felt like they were showing off their unique abilities and powers.
Akira has always been small/simple minded. This is to be expected and why I don’t take his word on his own story seriously. The dude wrote himself into a pit and can’t even write himself out of it.
@@muigokublack6487 Also why I will never believe that Final Gohan is stronger than Goku or Geets. Thats just stupid. Take everything Akira says with a grain of salt lol
@@Black_Knight_-BK- ?? How come , DBS:SH came way after granola arc , of course certain characters have to surpass certain characters.. its hard to take in but im sorry
5:00 Ki control is not something that breaks the law of physics and can put an infinite quantity of energy into a 1 x 1 meter explosion. That would make Universe-sized black hole. Ki control is restricting oneself ki inside your body so you aura don't leak, keep your mind calm to have your ki at its best state and being able to detonate your Kamehameha before it reach ground level. (Because the explosion doesn't destroy the planet, the trigger-property of the ki blast does. It's like setting on a firework. This is what Gohan did in DBS)
I think there's something else that adds to this problem, too. The Past. Ever since Broly, it seems like Super has just been retreading ground. We had Broly come back, we had Bardick, Frieza, the Red Ribbon army, and even aspects in the Morro arc and other stuff like Beast Gohan. Bringing everything back makes the world feel smaller.
In a side story at the end of the moro arc I believe it was bonus pages they showed what friezza was doing during the moro arc and freiza says that there are plenty of planets with life they retcon that line by the Supreme kai
I totally agree. One of the reasons some people hold one piece to such high regard is because of world building. And I didn’t even realize this was an issue until Salad pointed this out. Nice Salad👍
I feel like the feats of power are so limited, because there's a point where the writers will reach the edge of comprehension, and will only be able to just describe said power by comparing it to the previous level, of which will get stale very fast, and I doubt Toyama plans on wrapping up Dragonball as a whole too soon...
I just realized what GT actually means...(because I didn't watch much of that series, but just heard many ppl hating the series) That aside, the video gave out a pretty good point but since the series mostly focus on universe 7's earth, I ain't sure whether the writers would follow/adapt this advice (providing they listen to the fans/critics)
Seriously, for a show with supposedly galaxy-level characters, they’re only ever seen destroying planets. The easiest way to fix this would be to just let Goku and the gang breathe in space, then they could fight it all out against the villains. But then the villain’s only threat of ‘destroying their planet and them along with it’ is gone, so I guess that’s one reason why the writers won’t do it.
Awesome video, Salad! It made me think tho, characters in Dragon Ball can move at speeds of light and teleport and that's cool and all, but those abilities make it so Dragon Ball stories right now dont have any Adventure in them. By adventure I mean travel. There is no literal mountain that our characters can't climb, no river they can cross, they can just fly over. The environment is essentially just a background. I feel like there is so much story potential missed by removing the journey out of the story. For example - a good chunk of One Piece is the characters travelling and traversing the terrain, the story is build around it. Sometimes the terrain aids our heroes, sometimes it hinders their progress, sometimes it makes a bad situation worse, creating drama. I understand that, with the scale of the world that Dragon Ball has, there are not many ways of making a small sized journey matter, but Dragon Ball is a very creative and diverse series, so anything is possible!
8:44 Life... or minerals and materials, some planets might be running low on resources, so they buy a planet and mine it up and take it to their home planet.
Considering there is a guide which says the universe is infinite its pretty insane that not even all of U7 is or can be explored which can mean more new characters and villains
I 100% agree, feel like it would have been way better if in the zamasu arc, (for example) trunks barely makes it out of his timeline and when they go back to the future earth is gone and the zfighters have to find black either in that universe of the others in that timeline That eerie vibe of no life in any of the planets they go through would really set the scene
I thought the biggest problem was the heaping piles of inconsistency. Instead of trying to shove it in Z's continuity where it doesn't belong, they should just make a statement saying that Super takes place in a branching timeline from the rest of Z.
Im optimistic that this’ll change. After all the two examples of doing scale better, the Moro and Granola arcs, are the most recent arcs, so yeah, they seem to be improving in that sense!
How is do this "expansive settimg" 1: compose rose formation with 8 directions the universe is split into. 2: every direction has at least 10 populated home worlds with different races. 3: each race has a specific power. 4: the central universe in the middle is where the strongest races come from and the number of planets varies by universe. Next is the univserse count. I'd still go with 12 but for simple terms id say... 10 universes with more flushed out themes. Universe 7 and 6 are twin universes but I personally would like to see them differ in main power systems. 7 gets ki as its main system whale 6 gets magic. Both can use the other but the difference is that they mainly is the other more. Also is lile yo male it sop every instalment of the franchise focuses on exploring the universes. Dragon ball universes; basically every time one universe is fully explored we focus on another and a specific number follow the "universes".
i always thought that dragon ball should've gone galaxy-scale before universe-scale, i mean the other-world tournament was a pretty cool idea and it would go back to the dragon ball style of storyline, i think that could be an interesting thing to try with new characters, like piccolo or vegeta
I read a comment on another video, and I think it solves this problem, only requiring some slightly modified wording. I don't remember when/where I read it, or who posted it, but the idea was that it would be better to have the 28 planets thing refer specifically to worlds whose inhabitants possessed above average abilities/power levels. I've adopted this, and now, in my own head canon, there are only 28 worlds inhabited by beings with intellect/powers/abilities higher than average, but there are countless worlds with fully sentient life in Universe 7.
Honestly Fused zamasu vs vegetto blue suffered the worst from this. Both of these incredibly powerful characters barely destroy some rubble in their fight. It should've been like gogeta vs broly in scale. Have then completely destroy the city with their beam clash, turning it into a fiery land with lava spewing out like broly and have them travel across the planet in mere seconds.
That's the problem with making these characters so ridiculously powerful is that every battle would have to be on a similar scale to Gogeta vs Broly thus making that kind of battle where reality is shattering not special anymore.
I think the writers probably want to explore more of the universe (and now multiverse) of dragon ball but are afraid interest would be lost in it. Also it’s crazy how dbz kakarot portrays the fights I honestly would like to see some inspiration be taken from their.
We only know of ONE planet with life in our own universe, and the odds of there being more than that seem slimmer by the day thanks to the ever strengthening Fermi Paradox. 28 planets with life might actually be quite liberal in the end.
Personally, I feel Super was misjudged in trying to expand the scale of the Dragon Ball world. My favourite parts of Super were the scenes showing these superstrong characters in everyday situations like going to theme parks and having jobs. Maybe Super ought to have had the characters learn to make use their incredible abilities for the betterment of the planet, rather than isolating themselves training for the next big villain?
That line of there only being 28 inhabitated planets in Universe 7 is just....Stupid. Frieza's entire empire spanned the galaxy, or even the universe. It's primary use is to conquer planets and sell them for profit. If you only have 28 inhabited planets, how is an empire that spans that much space supposed to sustain itself? Who is buying these planets from Frieza? We have 12 Universes but only 3 are used to any real capacity. 6, 7 and 10.
The issue with that 28 planet thing is... Freiza is literally a planet broker/shark. The Sayians were his force sent out to conquer planets. Earth is considered a remote/obscure planet. We havent to have seen close to or more than that many species in the canon, and definitely more in filler. None of that makes sense when there is only 28 planets in the Universe at all. Poor buisness to be in with that little resources. Earth would be more significant and known. 1 species per planet should be the norm, but there would have to be several with 2+.
So it basically there is a lot of options to expand the universe, but it limited of what we got. It surprised that Heroes tried to give us that but it doesn’t expand that idea.
My only argument against the valuable planets is that, for a planet to be valuable it doesn't need to have lifeforms to be worth money. It could be a planet rich in certain minerals, or maybe it's a gaseous planet and the gas can be used for stuff, idk
here's the thing the problem of inexistent worldbuilding and everything feeling empty is z, ala z basically reduced the universe to not having people stronger then frieza ( which is a problem) and reduces the possibilities for worlduilding by having the issues which would come from friezza dying resolve themselves. and speedrunning the frieza saga ( that and having no love for it's secondary cast) remember the worldbuilding of the og dragonball
We see black freiza vs beast gohan or whoever fights him destroying time and space to the point its just a white nothing. Then the gp somehow restores it all and we good
Let’s be real, Super needed to be a slice of life, hell Dragonball should have transitioned a second time into Slice of life with the start of the Buu arc like it transitioned into a shounen with the Saiyan Arc. And yeah, the 28 planets number is nonsensical. Sure Empires in sci-fi can call themselves empires with only 4 or 5 planets, but a truly galactic empire in a well defined sci-fi world should control multiple solar systems or even galaxies and generally its expected that at least one or multiple planets in a solar system are inhabited. Like you said, it’s Freeza planet 448, no way a planet broker empire can have at least 448 planets without 60% of them being inhabited, the other 40% existing as military outposts, vacation planets, and resource planets. But part of why Super feels like it lacks spectacle I think has to do with storytelling style. Super as a modern anime and manga (with weird alternate canons for some reason) no longer exists in the crunch of Dragonball creation. On a week to week basis to maintain interest in the manga story and action had to take place at the same time. The two had to inform each other and overlap which gave the storytelling of Dragon ball, particularly as it became a shounen, greater weight. There’s really no way to fix it aside from a hard ass director saying “action and plot need to happen at the same time and a lot and I need it now!” Which everyone agrees sucks because crunch is the worst. The actual answer is that Dragon Ball Super needs to reinvent how it tells stories. The current shounen style is not working, we need lore masters, we need Toriyama to take a couple of years and write his Silmarillion for Dragon Ball and let stories come from that.
I still hate the whole ''28 Planets'' bit of information. Such a stupid concept, we literally see more planets in the Moro and Granolah arcs later on. Glad to see that fan-made creations such as Kakumei do a better job at expanding the Dragon Ball universe.
I've been saying this for years. Decades even. The whole "they have perfect ki control so the planet is still intact" never sat right with me because I feel that to properly make you feel how much stronger they are now than they are before, you have to show the fights on a grander scale. At these levels of strength, if your sneeze isn't taking out the galaxy, you're not doing it right lol. Anime is a visual medium, don't just tell me they're stronger, you need to show it. There have been a few scenes here and there that get to what I want to see (gogeta vs broly breaking through dimensions) but there's not nearly enough of it. In the tournament of power, the stage was made of special material yes, but it looked like the size of a mountain so it didn't feel like a big deal
Dbs is already destroying my dbz memories. Fights scenes are already not as impactful as before. Ui was a blast but thats it. I have watched db and dbz morer than 4 times but I cant bear to watch dbs. Universe busters feels like small building busters.
yeah. it makes more sense if 70% of the cast can destroy universes with ease when the universe has less than 30 planets with life. the “universes”in db is probably smaller than a galaxy.
i absolutely love how dragon ball is so hype that it HAS to have a mid story or else god himself would've come down from the heavens to call upon rapture after the ToP, as it was decided that humanity would no longer reach this height. it has to be balanced
Bruh Frieza literally took over and sold planets regularly for a living for like 50 years and was preceded by his father before him there's no way in hell there's only 28 inhabited planets.
I thought it was 28 planets after everything that the og super saiyan, freiza, the saiyans, buu 1st coming, buu 2nd coming, moro in the past, moro, and beerus destroyed. I probably missed a villain or two. And some planets would be destroyed naturally by asteroids supernovas or the population could nuke themselves or destroy their environment
Expect more discussion videos soon 🤫 they’re pretty fun to make and I feel like we can have some good convos about the different topics I have in mind! This particular one is a topic that I haven’t seen mentioned much, but I would like to see what you guys think!
I feel like Dragon Ball Super was basically Toei trying to fix one problem (Dragon Ball Evolution) by creating even BIGGER problems.
Don't get me wrong, there were good things to come out of it, but... they should've just let it die at GT...
Imo discussion streams are way more useful since we can actually debate on some topics wether its just in chat or maybe even on dc
What about the GT Planets
How is mortal defined? Could be referring to sentient species, not life in general.
Bro I would die if there was some random shopkeeper that was disrupted by the universe’s fights, Linda like the cabbage man from avatar
*Literal UNIVERSES EXIST*
Toriyama: *_28 planets with life, take it or leave it_* 💀
Yeah, this is so stupid !
Which doesn’t even make sense later in the manga considering Moro claimed to have consumed countless planets just in the 2 months between the fight on Namek and the one on Earth
💀
@@BuSSSh guess Moro can't count to 20
@@o0o371 🤓☝️
I think the whole 28 planets statement would've been better if it was something like "Well, theres about 5000 planets with sentient life, but in terms of power only a handful reach the power that the average saiyan had back when they were around"
Its crazy how they introduce different universes and even other planes of existences all together but dont capitalize on it like they should
I mean they told you it was other universes that you didn’t know! So isn’t that enough we got different fighters that made it different and I enjoyed it, it’s always ppl who will find something to complain about. But hey it’s your opinion, not everyone will enjoy a series or a manga. It’s a lot of mangas that definitely better than the anime itself which I swear that American production needs to stick to original content it would be so much better
I think fights in DBS should take place in space. If you're introducing a multiverse and villains that are that strong, have them fight in space. The fights on earth or on some planet just feels rather limited. Fights in space have a lot of potential and you can get creative with it. Even though there are characters that can't breathe in space despite them being that strong. Who cares? Just have them create a ki barrier for them to breathe. Easy as that.
They will die faster. Oh wait, plot armour.
They should have it to where the fighters are so strong that they can survive in space without oxygen for a while and they can just planet hop with they start feeling weaker. It should be that simple right?
If you got a literall god tearing apart the universe in one episode
How realistic is to introduce a even stronger form that can battle without a single earthquake or natural desaster happening during the entire fight ON THE SAME PLANET
Ki barrier, maybe some yardrat technique. Build it into lore. Whis has no problems in space, Goku is going down the angelic path, give him some more of those abilities. Beerus would probably be fine too, so just say Vegeta can survive because of destruction power or somethig.
Literally god ki. Beerus and whis can survive in space. Goku and vegeta has god ki. Instead of just saying “ki but stronger and regular guys cant sense it,” just give them new abilities lmao.
Friendly reminder that Toriyama had literally managed to have multiple infinite chances to have new stories and warriors with all the universes and instantly put all of the strongest fighters in one arc
I think if they did a multiversal war arc(like kakumei) it would be a good excuse to show the life in other universes
Amen to this, kakumei has to be one of if not my favorite db fan manga
Yeah. What if they do something similar to this, only Frieza is the main villain, and he's become so powerful that he attempts multiversal dominance? Or is able to achieve it? It could give us lots of backstories on the other universes. And maybe the strongest mortals in the multiverses(like Jiren, Top, Hit, U6 Saiyans, etc.) along with new characters band together to defeat Frieza for good. It could be good worldbuilding, and show how much of a threat Frieza has become. I feel like it could be a great final arc, if done right.
@@brk6569 I haven't read it, but it's really good from what i've seen.
I cant lie for the past couple weeks Ive been hopeing they do something like that!
@@AChimp196 I want this. It would be like Avengers Infinity War/Endgame but for Dragon Ball.
There's definitely more than just 28 planets with life, Shin probably only pays attention to 28. I mean Friezas empire conquered countless planets and civilizations, that's their thing. We know there are more planets with life and probably a lot of life, it's probably just Shins incompetence.
Yeah it's been confirmed that Frieza conquered 448 planets
With only 28 planets is impossible for frieza empire to have had worked. Who is buying? Who is he wiping out of a planet? If there are only 28 planets, his whole army wouldnt make sense since when he wipes a planet he always leave one alive and recruit him.
Great point
I agree with how they should basically be battling in a bigger area and not just a small a$$ area considering there power and feats honestly they waisting it, a least a little bit
Maybe they are just weak characters.
I really hate how Toriyama refuses to allow the saiyans to fight in space. When they were fighting Moro, and Vegeta told Goku they couldn't go any further because there was no more atmosphere, I was so disappointed.
They have god forms now, but they are STILL unable to tackle the vaccum of space? FFS.
They have been nerfed
The problem with making these characters so ridiculously powerful is that you always have to up the stakes to a point where the whole multiverse is threatened to be destroyed. How can you raise the stakes any higher than everything that ever existed to be destroyed.
Only 28 Planets? Isn't the Universe like *infinite*
The universe may be infinite but there is only 28 planets with intelligent life while the others have absolutely no life in them.
@@skatrrr wait maybe it just means 28 planets with intelligent life and the other ones are like primal beasts with no intelligence maybe it was meant to be taken literally as smart lifeforms
@@B3an01 yeah something like that
The Universes in dragon ball are not infinites, they have a limit size.
It's confirmed in both the Super manga and anime that universe 7 has an edge.
One of my biggest complaints with Dragon Ball is that the sense of scale has been so weird ever since OG Dragon Ball.
It’s been almost 40 years and yet we STILL don’t know much about Earth. A planet is a big place yet it seems as if Toriyama never really cared about fleshing out Earth, it’s map, it’s people, it’s locations, etc. We only get passing glimpses in the RR Army and Pilaf arcs but that’s about it.
In DBZ we’re introduced to a whole universe! Yet…we only ever really see Namek, glimpses of Otherworld , Yardrat, the Supreme Kai’s Planet…and that’s it. Hell, we barely see much of Earth besides more plains, waste lands and ruined cities.
In DBS? We get AN ENTIRE MULTIVERSE!! And what do we see? Passing glances at the other universes…and that’s it.
This problem with sense of scale and world building has been an issue in Dragon Ball since it’s beginnings. It seems like this is mainly a Toriyama issue because when we have other writers (Toyotaro, Toei staff writers, etc), we do get to see various locations, alien races and more. I’m hoping that, as the manga continues and (hopefully) the anime returns, we’ll see more world building.
Great Videl Salad, keep up the good work! 👍
That’s what filler is for.
DB/Z ended 28 years ago.
The 28 planets with life statement is just one of many inconsistencies of Toyotaro's manga, just like Toriyama's.
Anyone that says that the DB and DBS manga don't have many inconsistencies/mistakes, hasn't read the mangas in a long time and hasn't analyzed them in detail.
I remember when goku went super sayian 3 for the first time and nearly destroyed a city as the entire world shook in an earthquake of power excreted from goku himself from hitting new heights of strength.
Now he can power up, past the relative power of a typical god of destruction, and everyone just kinda chills and cheers him on.
4:00
To defend Superhero, they did get fairly varied with their fights (at least compared to Broly). The first fight takes place in the plains/piccolos yard(?), the second fight takes place around the red ribbon base (they even briefly go into a canyon area, that was cool). And then finally, Gohan and Gamma 1 fight in that underground area which looked gorgeous (although having an underground temple next to the base was kinda weird, was that intentional lore?)
Dragon ball super contradicts itself so much it’s just normal at this point
Zeno: there's 28 planets.
Vegeta: That doesn't seem right. I'm pretty sure I've conquered more planets than that.
Zeno: *deadpans* there's 28 planets.
Grand Priest: now now Zeno, no foreshadowing.
Zeno: oh, right. Hehehehe
Vegeta: i don't like where this is going.
Salad Saiyan is right. The Zamasu arc was a PERFECT opportunity, to travel to Gt, etc.
Well tbf, it's a common trope in Dragonball that the gods despite the moniker, are incompetent at the best of times. The only ones who were helpful where Kami and King Kai.
It's even been shown that Shin is horrible at his job of being a god of creation and Beerus is even worse given he destroys planets not because they're unsuitable for life but because they annoyed him and offloaded his job onto Frieza.
Unbelievable how my man pulled that sponsor part, bro caught me off guard
As a inpiring writer myself, not every fight needs to be expansion, just as long as the fights are interesting and showcase the character(s) abilities properly. Plus every fight doesn't need to be a spectacle unless necessary. People if you try and make every fight large and character(s) flashing, it can be overwhelming. For example The Black Goku arc, the fight really doesn't need to hope from location to location. As long as it's showed that the villain is a threat to the multiverse and show how large along he is achieving his plan.
While I agree with your points about spectacle not being necessary to demonstrate scope...
As an *aspiring* writer, I don't think you should be proclaiming your work to be "inspiring" to others just yet. 😅
@@RuriMizuno Inspiring means to be in the works of creating something. Unless you're confusing it by thinking I meant I'm an amateur writer
@@wijinsama
I was quite certain you were misusing the word "inspire." However, because I'm aware that I don't always know every definition of a word, I went ahead and looked it up, just to make sure.
in·spire
/inˈspī(ə)r/
Learn to pronounce
verb
1. fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.
"his passion for romantic literature inspired him to begin writing"
2. breathe in (air); inhale.
"they can expand their lungs and inspire enough gas to satisfy oxygen requirements"
No, "inspiring" does not mean "to be in the works of creating something."
And while, yes, I did think you meant "aspiring" (which doesn't necessarily imply amateur *capabilities*, merely being unpublished -- I consider myself an aspiring writer, for example), now I actually do think you're an amateur, at least when it comes to grammar and vocabulary.
@@wijinsama
For completionism's sake:
as·pire
/əˈspī(ə)r/
Learn to pronounce
verb
1. direct one's hopes or ambitions towards achieving something.
"we never thought that we might aspire to those heights"
This fits more in line with "being in the works of creating something." An "aspiring writer" is usually someone in the process of writing something, but as yet unpublished.
@@wijinsama no, that's aspiring. Not inspiring lol. You would think an "inspiring writer" would know the difference and yes, you are absolutely an amateur. You've proved that to be the case yourself lol
An infinite macrocosm with several different infinite plains, and several hundred differing intelligent species…
and the best they could do is 28.
To put it bluntly, Dragon Ball has always had some type of issue in regards of lacking something. No matter the series within, there just isn't enough. Not enough explanation for the masses, Not enough proper thought into a power scale that has long since flown too far too quickly, Not enough worldbuilding despite the introduction of 12 more universes in Super or outer space in Z, but more than anything, Not enough backstory or explanation behind characters and/or their transformations. This one in particular has been an issue from the very start with Goku. If you disagree there, what about Tien? What about Yamcha? Think deeper about the origins of these characters, rather than what we're told. What do they have before they are in the story?
When you get down to the core, all of the problems that exist in Dragon Ball as a series result from simply not having enough of it. There's some explanation of power scaling, some worldbuilding and larger scale fights, some lore behind certain characters, but there never is enough. And I think this is their marketing scheme; if everything was cut, dry, and to the point, discussion would be a lot less warrantable. However, at the same time, they make the mistake of leaving way too much up to interpretation. There are times when your interpretation is entirely what determines your opinion on an arc, or even the way the story gets told. Why? Because the foundation of what DB is giving is just not enough for what it promises.
For the fuck of it, I'll go and list some characters, forms, and etc. that aren't completely explained in specifically the manga/anime, just off the dome (let's also ignore Goku for the sake of it):
Almost every retcon ever, Dinosaurs never going extinct, Yamcha and Krillin's full backstory, Tien's race, The concept of ki and flying, Mr. Popo's race, The Ox King's origins beyond what was said, Science in regards to the inventions of Bulma's family and Capsule Corp, The history of Capsule Corp, The actual calculation behind Power Levels, ZENKAIS, The Ginyu Force and Freeza's races as a whole, Yardrat pre-Super, Lapis and Lazuli, SSJ grade multipliers, What truly occurs in time skips (whether it's flashbacks or not), Goten and Trunks not having a tail, SSJ3's multiplier, A majority of feats being misworded or not worded at all, SSJ Rose, SSJ Rage and Beast Gohan (literally anything?), Zamasu's techniques, The lore behind most of the God's hierarchy including Kais, The lore behind various warriors from the ToP (Jiren ironically was the most that we got), and etc. etc. because I thought of more examples than I realized I would.
The point of these examples are to show you that there are going to be things someone else will think to ask that you won't, and it isn't going to always be asked because there are just that many things left unexplained.
Do you think that the Dragon Ball series in general needs an rewrite/reboot/remake/whatever?
“there's about 8500 planets with sentient life and counting, but only about 28 have individuals with the minimal power of an average saiyan or a very well-trained human”. with that statement, you fix the whole problem lol.
i feel what your saying. Back in the manga when all of the gods were fighting and they were supposed to be fighting at full power. it felt like they weren’t fighting like actual gods. I think their battle should’ve been on a higher scale than broly vs gogeta. I mean come on it’s GODS OF DESTRUCTIONS. But the fight felt like they were showing off their unique abilities and powers.
That’s why gt is so good the first saga is going around the universe
Akira has always been small/simple minded. This is to be expected and why I don’t take his word on his own story seriously. The dude wrote himself into a pit and can’t even write himself out of it.
He also has been known to write by the seat of his pants and has been forgetful like how he forgot Launch existed.
@@muigokublack6487 Also why I will never believe that Final Gohan is stronger than Goku or Geets. Thats just stupid. Take everything Akira says with a grain of salt lol
@@Black_Knight_-BK- p
@@v12demonz2 q
@@Black_Knight_-BK- ?? How come , DBS:SH came way after granola arc , of course certain characters have to surpass certain characters.. its hard to take in but im sorry
5:00 Ki control is not something that breaks the law of physics and can put an infinite quantity of energy into a 1 x 1 meter explosion. That would make Universe-sized black hole.
Ki control is restricting oneself ki inside your body so you aura don't leak, keep your mind calm to have your ki at its best state and being able to detonate your Kamehameha before it reach ground level. (Because the explosion doesn't destroy the planet, the trigger-property of the ki blast does. It's like setting on a firework. This is what Gohan did in DBS)
I think there's something else that adds to this problem, too. The Past. Ever since Broly, it seems like Super has just been retreading ground. We had Broly come back, we had Bardick, Frieza, the Red Ribbon army, and even aspects in the Morro arc and other stuff like Beast Gohan. Bringing everything back makes the world feel smaller.
DBZ has that same problem
In a side story at the end of the moro arc I believe it was bonus pages they showed what friezza was doing during the moro arc and freiza says that there are plenty of planets with life they retcon that line by the Supreme kai
I totally agree. One of the reasons some people hold one piece to such high regard is because of world building. And I didn’t even realize this was an issue until Salad pointed this out. Nice Salad👍
I feel like the feats of power are so limited, because there's a point where the writers will reach the edge of comprehension, and will only be able to just describe said power by comparing it to the previous level, of which will get stale very fast, and I doubt Toyama plans on wrapping up Dragonball as a whole too soon...
I just realized what GT actually means...(because I didn't watch much of that series, but just heard many ppl hating the series)
That aside, the video gave out a pretty good point but since the series mostly focus on universe 7's earth, I ain't sure whether the writers would follow/adapt this advice (providing they listen to the fans/critics)
Gt stand for grand tour
Seriously, for a show with supposedly galaxy-level characters, they’re only ever seen destroying planets. The easiest way to fix this would be to just let Goku and the gang breathe in space, then they could fight it all out against the villains. But then the villain’s only threat of ‘destroying their planet and them along with it’ is gone, so I guess that’s one reason why the writers won’t do it.
Awesome video, Salad!
It made me think tho, characters in Dragon Ball can move at speeds of light and teleport and that's cool and all, but those abilities make it so Dragon Ball stories right now dont have any Adventure in them. By adventure I mean travel.
There is no literal mountain that our characters can't climb, no river they can cross, they can just fly over. The environment is essentially just a background.
I feel like there is so much story potential missed by removing the journey out of the story. For example - a good chunk of One Piece is the characters travelling and traversing the terrain, the story is build around it. Sometimes the terrain aids our heroes, sometimes it hinders their progress, sometimes it makes a bad situation worse, creating drama.
I understand that, with the scale of the world that Dragon Ball has, there are not many ways of making a small sized journey matter, but Dragon Ball is a very creative and diverse series, so anything is possible!
6:08 Chain reaction by setting of a planet core.
This is litteraly stated in the guidebook with Buu's attack. NEXT
8:44 Life... or minerals and materials, some planets might be running low on resources, so they buy a planet and mine it up and take it to their home planet.
They could recon that line by saying that the 28 planets are home planets and the rest are colonies
5:17 Gas was teleporting, they are not THAT quick.
Considering there is a guide which says the universe is infinite its pretty insane that not even all of U7 is or can be explored which can mean more new characters and villains
I 100% agree, feel like it would have been way better if in the zamasu arc, (for example) trunks barely makes it out of his timeline and when they go back to the future earth is gone and the zfighters have to find black either in that universe of the others in that timeline
That eerie vibe of no life in any of the planets they go through would really set the scene
Coming home tired from work and seeing salad post makes me feel so energized ❤️
I thought the biggest problem was the heaping piles of inconsistency. Instead of trying to shove it in Z's continuity where it doesn't belong, they should just make a statement saying that Super takes place in a branching timeline from the rest of Z.
Im optimistic that this’ll change. After all the two examples of doing scale better, the Moro and Granola arcs, are the most recent arcs, so yeah, they seem to be improving in that sense!
28 Planets May seem small but when you think about it makes sense…Buu, Freiza, The Saiyans…Ontop of an cat as your god of Destruction….yeah no wonder.
Related it was odd to me in super that Wise could not find any fights outside of the team.
How is do this "expansive settimg"
1: compose rose formation with 8 directions the universe is split into.
2: every direction has at least 10 populated home worlds with different races.
3: each race has a specific power.
4: the central universe in the middle is where the strongest races come from and the number of planets varies by universe.
Next is the univserse count. I'd still go with 12 but for simple terms id say... 10 universes with more flushed out themes.
Universe 7 and 6 are twin universes but I personally would like to see them differ in main power systems.
7 gets ki as its main system whale 6 gets magic.
Both can use the other but the difference is that they mainly is the other more.
Also is lile yo male it sop every instalment of the franchise focuses on exploring the universes.
Dragon ball universes; basically every time one universe is fully explored we focus on another and a specific number follow the "universes".
I’m not sure what you mean by the unnamed planet at the end of broly. Weren’t there only three planets in that movie?
If dbs had a sense of scale, Moro would be the devourer of galaxies, not planets
i always thought that dragon ball should've gone galaxy-scale before universe-scale, i mean the other-world tournament was a pretty cool idea and it would go back to the dragon ball style of storyline, i think that could be an interesting thing to try with new characters, like piccolo or vegeta
I read a comment on another video, and I think it solves this problem, only requiring some slightly modified wording. I don't remember when/where I read it, or who posted it, but the idea was that it would be better to have the 28 planets thing refer specifically to worlds whose inhabitants possessed above average abilities/power levels. I've adopted this, and now, in my own head canon, there are only 28 worlds inhabited by beings with intellect/powers/abilities higher than average, but there are countless worlds with fully sentient life in Universe 7.
Honestly Fused zamasu vs vegetto blue suffered the worst from this. Both of these incredibly powerful characters barely destroy some rubble in their fight.
It should've been like gogeta vs broly in scale. Have then completely destroy the city with their beam clash, turning it into a fiery land with lava spewing out like broly and have them travel across the planet in mere seconds.
That's the problem with making these characters so ridiculously powerful is that every battle would have to be on a similar scale to Gogeta vs Broly thus making that kind of battle where reality is shattering not special anymore.
@@BigGreen945 I guess, but a battle like fused zamasu vs blue vegetto deserves that level of scale.
I think the writers probably want to explore more of the universe (and now multiverse) of dragon ball but are afraid interest would be lost in it. Also it’s crazy how dbz kakarot portrays the fights I honestly would like to see some inspiration be taken from their.
What if idea "what if future Goku survived" I would like to see a what if mostly in the future timeline and this would be a good one I think
THANK YOU SALAD!! We need to spread this conversation!!!
My uncle said why tf goku and vegeta were fighting broly on earth when apparently they could destroy universes with ease
The whole point of the saian race under frieza was to conquer and sell planets. Did they need to conquer rocks? And whos gonna buy it?
Man I hope dbssh in manga should be in space what do y'all think about this and salad saiyan I love your vids bro
The fact that you could now blink terrified me
We only know of ONE planet with life in our own universe, and the odds of there being more than that seem slimmer by the day thanks to the ever strengthening Fermi Paradox. 28 planets with life might actually be quite liberal in the end.
Nice, wsg Salad
Why are there only 18 universe
Personally, I feel Super was misjudged in trying to expand the scale of the Dragon Ball world.
My favourite parts of Super were the scenes showing these superstrong characters in everyday situations like going to theme parks and having jobs. Maybe Super ought to have had the characters learn to make use their incredible abilities for the betterment of the planet, rather than isolating themselves training for the next big villain?
I thought G•T• meant Goku Time
Mike shinoda said he was pessimistic....back in 1998 back in Rapology 13
That line of there only being 28 inhabitated planets in Universe 7 is just....Stupid. Frieza's entire empire spanned the galaxy, or even the universe. It's primary use is to conquer planets and sell them for profit. If you only have 28 inhabited planets, how is an empire that spans that much space supposed to sustain itself? Who is buying these planets from Frieza?
We have 12 Universes but only 3 are used to any real capacity. 6, 7 and 10.
The issue with that 28 planet thing is... Freiza is literally a planet broker/shark. The Sayians were his force sent out to conquer planets. Earth is considered a remote/obscure planet. We havent to have seen close to or more than that many species in the canon, and definitely more in filler.
None of that makes sense when there is only 28 planets in the Universe at all. Poor buisness to be in with that little resources. Earth would be more significant and known. 1 species per planet should be the norm, but there would have to be several with 2+.
What’s up Salad
Salad: DBS should have wider scales
Kakumei: yes
So it basically there is a lot of options to expand the universe, but it limited of what we got. It surprised that Heroes tried to give us that but it doesn’t expand that idea.
My only argument against the valuable planets is that, for a planet to be valuable it doesn't need to have lifeforms to be worth money. It could be a planet rich in certain minerals, or maybe it's a gaseous planet and the gas can be used for stuff, idk
here's the thing the problem of inexistent worldbuilding and everything feeling empty is z, ala z basically reduced the universe to not having people stronger then frieza ( which is a problem) and reduces the possibilities for worlduilding by having the issues which would come from friezza dying resolve themselves. and speedrunning the frieza saga ( that and having no love for it's secondary cast) remember the worldbuilding of the og dragonball
Beerus nd frieza going around destroying planets
Also just how many planets did the saiyans wiped out
GT wasn’t too bad in my opinion
I think if they said there are only 28 Planets with pretty powerful people it would make sense...
Man you speak so fast I had to put the video at 0.75, great vid tho, underrated topic and nice arguments
9:12 I'm gonna pretend I didn't see you blink
We see black freiza vs beast gohan or whoever fights him destroying time and space to the point its just a white nothing. Then the gp somehow restores it all and we good
Let’s be real, Super needed to be a slice of life, hell Dragonball should have transitioned a second time into Slice of life with the start of the Buu arc like it transitioned into a shounen with the Saiyan Arc.
And yeah, the 28 planets number is nonsensical. Sure Empires in sci-fi can call themselves empires with only 4 or 5 planets, but a truly galactic empire in a well defined sci-fi world should control multiple solar systems or even galaxies and generally its expected that at least one or multiple planets in a solar system are inhabited. Like you said, it’s Freeza planet 448, no way a planet broker empire can have at least 448 planets without 60% of them being inhabited, the other 40% existing as military outposts, vacation planets, and resource planets.
But part of why Super feels like it lacks spectacle I think has to do with storytelling style. Super as a modern anime and manga (with weird alternate canons for some reason) no longer exists in the crunch of Dragonball creation. On a week to week basis to maintain interest in the manga story and action had to take place at the same time. The two had to inform each other and overlap which gave the storytelling of Dragon ball, particularly as it became a shounen, greater weight.
There’s really no way to fix it aside from a hard ass director saying “action and plot need to happen at the same time and a lot and I need it now!” Which everyone agrees sucks because crunch is the worst. The actual answer is that Dragon Ball Super needs to reinvent how it tells stories. The current shounen style is not working, we need lore masters, we need Toriyama to take a couple of years and write his Silmarillion for Dragon Ball and let stories come from that.
I still hate the whole ''28 Planets'' bit of information. Such a stupid concept, we literally see more planets in the Moro and Granolah arcs later on.
Glad to see that fan-made creations such as Kakumei do a better job at expanding the Dragon Ball universe.
I've been saying this for years. Decades even. The whole "they have perfect ki control so the planet is still intact" never sat right with me because I feel that to properly make you feel how much stronger they are now than they are before, you have to show the fights on a grander scale. At these levels of strength, if your sneeze isn't taking out the galaxy, you're not doing it right lol. Anime is a visual medium, don't just tell me they're stronger, you need to show it. There have been a few scenes here and there that get to what I want to see (gogeta vs broly breaking through dimensions) but there's not nearly enough of it. In the tournament of power, the stage was made of special material yes, but it looked like the size of a mountain so it didn't feel like a big deal
Dbs is already destroying my dbz memories. Fights scenes are already not as impactful as before. Ui was a blast but thats it. I have watched db and dbz morer than 4 times but I cant bear to watch dbs. Universe busters feels like small building busters.
Can you do what if vagita deaded it the fight with cell
Greetings, Salad 🤝
It makes more sense that they are "universe busters" if the universe is small.
No
@@PegasusTenma1 Yes
yeah. it makes more sense if 70% of the cast can destroy universes with ease when the universe has less than 30 planets with life. the “universes”in db is probably smaller than a galaxy.
@@deckzone3000 makes 0 sense
@@user-lo6iq2lu1g that’s bullshit
i absolutely love how dragon ball is so hype that it HAS to have a mid story or else god himself would've come down from the heavens to call upon rapture after the ToP, as it was decided that humanity would no longer reach this height. it has to be balanced
I love these discussion videos
They should use the earthing
Bruh Frieza literally took over and sold planets regularly for a living for like 50 years and was preceded by his father before him there's no way in hell there's only 28 inhabited planets.
Well Beerus and Frieza destroyed most that's the most logical reason I can come up with
28 this guy need to go specsavers
Wassup Salad
Goated🗿💪
I thought it was 28 planets after everything that the og super saiyan, freiza, the saiyans, buu 1st coming, buu 2nd coming, moro in the past, moro, and beerus destroyed. I probably missed a villain or two. And some planets would be destroyed naturally by asteroids supernovas or the population could nuke themselves or destroy their environment
What about frieza planet no 448 that we know exist? Bruhhh
Anyone noticed how Salad Repeated himself in 3:19
Nice video