I like the ideas that you put forth about the plot changes in the story. I can't help feeling that the Dark Lord might have actually have gone to recover the Ring himself from Frodo. I don't know if Sauron had a physical body during the events of the Lord of the Rings
DUDE LOTR should have been a single book story , as the very moment that Gandalf took eagles to fly off Saruman's tower all he had to do is go grab Frodo, go to Tom Bombadil, tell Aragorn and Elrond to fake an incoronation in Minas Tirith, wait for the Nazgul to attack osghilliath as a diversion and then fly tom bobmadil to mount doom with a single eagle and have him drop the ring in the fire. No one would have had to fight , no one would have died.. So the truth is that all the main heroes of LOTR are definitely imbeciles... but yeah nice to watch the fantasy show.. even if I like The Hobbit a million times better, even if in reality again, all gandalf had to do is ask the Elves to get to kill the dragon and not the dwarves. And don't even dare to make an argument that Legolas would have failed to cast an arrow into the dragons weak spot.... that would be unrealistic after we was shown of what he was capable of in two stories..
I have no idea if we can even guess on whether he'd get the same change of job description as in the canon case. On one hand, there is the same need for a White wizard on the side of the free peoples, on the other, this need has been there for a few decades, and didn't cause Gandalf's promotion before.
I have thought of that and it would have been wise for Saruman to be sure he lived as a weaker Gandalf is more manageable. Why not allow him to simply ride off to seek out the Nazgul and help the hobbits then "help him" by clearing a pathway through the safest avenue possible and just tell Sauron where they were going.
A friendly reminder that Gandalf still needs food, water, and sleep. Yes, his maia nature did help him in the fight with the Balrog, but he was still starving and exhausted during the whole fight. I hope Gandalf is an even bigger badass in your eyes now.
The return of the king probably wouldn't have even taken place if Gandalf stayed dead. Aragorn wouldn't have made it to Edoras, to helm's deep, to Isengard, to receive the palantir, to confront and distract sauron and give frodo time. None of that would've been possible without Gandalf's intervention in Fangorn and Rohan at least.
The fact that the winged beasts fly at a whopping 320kph is just too fast to be honest , way too fast. At that speed , not even taking size and time into account , The beast would just start to cook from the friction due to its huge size. So basically , the time frame should have been close to 15-20 hours which is a lot but makes the most sense i guess.
The fastest flying animal is a diving peregrin falcon at maximum 389 kph (wikipedia). Apparently most birds fly at around 20 - 30 mph, or 30 - 50 kph, so I'd say a prolonged flight at 320 kph is about as fantastical as Ancalagon the black's size. I would rather interpret Gandalf's "a few hours" as between 20 to 40 hours.
they dont fly at 320 mph. Orthanc and Barad Dur is about 500-600 miles, and Gandalf said the Nazgul would fly that in a couple of hours. Let's say 4 or 5, then we are at 125-150 miles per hour (still fast). edit: nvm mph kph stupid hobbit here
GRR Martin is probably thinking: That's how LOTR should have ended! ( If I am not mistaken, he really doesn't like Gandalf's resurrection. You know nothing, George!)
@@rogueascendant6611 I think he's just illustrating his lack of understanding of death in books. I think he has created his own cliché of just killing people because "muh realistic". Consistently doing things for shock value sucks
@@rogueascendant6611 technically he didn't finish his books as he didn't live to publish the Silmarillion and related stories. Martin is very different from Tolkien as he limits magic in his world and makes stories realistic by having people die, mentioning logistics and politics of his world whilst Tolkien writes a mythology and doesn't even say if certain events actually. Martin just says it as is or say it is simply unknown.
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867Tolkien finished LotR and The Hobit. Anything else was a bonus. Martin has an entirely unfinished story that he refuses to finish while critiquing the reason he has an inspiration to begin with.
@@davidspring4003 The Silmarillion is the reason both of those books exist and most definitely not "a bonus". Tolkien didn't even make up his mind on the endings of those either as he altered them after publishing them.
@ i do wonder if it has its limits. i've not read the books so i dont know if thats explicitly stated or if people are just making assumptions because it would be logical to assume it can morph in size somewhat to fit the numerous ring wielders through the ages
Much happens at Amon Hen. I feel that Frodo could hardly have missed noticing that Sauron spotted him, and I think this would have led him to choose a different path than going on without the rest of the Fellowship. Lots of possibilities there.
I love your Tolkien Theory videos. Always well researched which makes them very entertaining and intelligent to listen to. I would love to see another one of Saruman. Specifically: ‘What if Saruman stayed loyal to Sauron?’ or ‘what if Saruman was redeemed?’ (Meaning Saruman accepted Gandalf’s proposal for redemption after the defeat of Isengard and aided Gandalf in the war of the ring).
When I was doing the dishes this morning, I had a thought: why Thorin's company didn't visit Bree on their way to Rivendell? They don't have enough time?
Tolkien attempted to make a re-write of the Hobbit to fit with LOTR, but he abandoned it. In it, the company did stop at Bree and even spent the night in the Prancing pony.
But what if the voice Frodo is hearing on Amon Hen is not Gandalfs "actual voice" telepathically raeaching out to him, but Frodo remembering or anticipanting what his old friend would have said. In this moment of dire need he would most definitely be thinking "what would Gandalf have done" and thus might realise that Gandalf always warned him, not to use the ring. So Frodo might have taken off the ring just as in the books soon enough. And then?
Gandalf actually confirms in The Two Towers that he was the one speaking to Frodo. The Three Hunters wouldn't know exactly what he is talking about, but we as the readers, do.
Tolkien had plenty of pieces left on the table to cover Gandalf's death if needed. For instance, Gandalf sent out Radagast to find the blue wizards before visiting Orthanc? Covered.
I don't think Sauromon would destroy Helms deep. It would make more sence for him to use a perfectly defencible fort as a barracks for his Orcs. Tactically, it makes sense. 😁
I’ve often thought that Aragorn should probably have went after Frodo and Sam to make sure that the ring was destroyed. It would be interesting to see how that would have went. Amazing video as usual!!!
That was never his plan, but he would have sent Gimli, the only other candidate for ring bearer, I think. (either Gandalf or Aragon had said the intent was the Gimli would continue with Frodo if I remember correctly).
@@johnmccracken3473 Interesting thought- Dwarves are far more resistant to the Rings than the other races. The Nine turned Men into wraith servants, while the Dwarves remained independent while wearing the Seven. And that was without the Dwarves even being aware that the Rings were "bad". Gimli knew what must be done, and I think would not fall prey to the Ring's temptations at the end. And had Aragorn been with them... he knew the land as well, or better, than Gollum. He'd travelled to the far East, he'd been in the Morgul vale. He knew the paths into and around Mordor. Worst case scenario, he takes them the long way around, entering Mordor from the East. There's some risky periods around the Black Gate vicinity (if they go North), or in Ithilien if they go South, but as accomplished a woodsman as he was, he probably pulls it off. It would take a very long time, avoiding advancing armies of Easterlings or Haradrim, but then Sauron wouldn't have been pressed into battle just yet either. Ironically, once inside Mordor coming from the East, they still need Sauron to empty his lands (send armies out) to reach Mt Doom. So, Gondor falls. But Sauron, despite taking the victory there and maybe heading towards Lorien, ultimately is vanquished as Gimli tosses the Ring into the Fire. So the Dominion of Men begins anyway, but in a Dark Age.
Great to have a thought experiment like this. May I propose an alternative? Frodo struggles longer on Amon Hen. Galadriel or Elrond breaks him out of it 5 minutes later than Gandalf did. He takes longer to come to himself. The Nazgûl are on the way and arrive an hour or two later. Aragorn finds him at the foot of Amon Hen and per his plan he Gimli, Legolas and Sam accompany Frodo to Emin Muil and Botomirs last stand is ignored. The most skilled tracker in Middle Earth guides Frodo away while the Nazgûl arrive to find a dying Boromir. Discerning that 2 hobbits have been taken by Sarumans orcs they pursue and scatter the Orcs. Let’s say the hobbits escape. They then return to Barad Dur to report Sarumans treachery and that he will have the ring soon. Sauron only has the Nazgûl who can operate at this range so he sends them to lay siege to Orthanc and prevent the ring reaching Saruman. Too many possibilities after this but I think it could be a fun arc to follow.
Actually if Galadriel Elrond is too much of a stretch, Aragorn would probably get there after 15 mins and could physically break the spell on Frodo, at the top of Amon hen, in Saurons full gaze. Even more infuriating for him. At this point Frodo would be baggage for a few hours and it would be up in the air if they dash for Mordor or Gondor. Either way they wouldnt stick around for the Nazgûl.
The first person affected is Frodo on the hill of seeing while wearing the ring. Gandalf helps him and the text is clear that Sauron would have seen frodo and the ring clearly thus dooming the mission. This happens before the sundering of the fellowship.
Great as always :). Just another idea of an explanation video came into my mind: Does the Mayar as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and the Balrogs know what they are? I would asume, that the bad ones know what they are. But as I remember, the Wizards never mentioned their origin - so, might it be, that they are unaware of what they are?
The fact that Rohan would withstand even without Gandalf is interesting. The more you delve deeper into the lore, the more it becomes obvious that the good guys weren't so impossibly outnumbered as in the film. The evil only seemed to be so powerful. Which is what I think may be the real moral of the story
Wait, why would there be no force of Huorns at Dunharrow? It's not like the Ents went "oh, well, we guess we'll mop up the orcs at Helm's Deep" - Isengard is much closer to Fangorn than Helm's Deep, they were sent specifically to deal with the orc army. It'd take them a bit longer to reach Dunharrow, sure, but given the pace of things, the Huorns might well be reaching there before Aragorn and the Gray Company do. Those orcs get smashed by Huorns either way, the Huorns just might have to do some front line fighting rather than slaughtering an already-routed pack of survivors. The Huorns showing up at Helm's Deep is the demonstration that "Oh, the Ents are taking this seriously and being *thorough* ")
As far as I'm concerned, if Gandalf hadn't returned, the war for middle earth may have ended in Edoras. Without Gandalf, Aragorn and company would have continued searching for the Hobbits in and around Fangorn. Gandalf doesn't rescue Theoden from Saruman and Wormtongue, never goes to Helm's deep....Saruman may not even be overthrown by the Ents without Gandald. Frodo inevitably would've been captured somewhere east of Anduin, West of the black gate, and Sauron would've regained the ring. Party over. No return of the king, just the lands being covered in a second darkness.
I think that the only reason Eru would choose not to intervene to bring back Gandalf would be because there is another path to victory over Sauron. Perhaps he would have intervened instead by slipping the Ring off Frodo’s finger on Amon Hen just in time. Sauron would then be back to believing that the hobbits captured by Saruman were the Ring bearers and the quest might still have a chance.
I think the situation in Rohan would have turned out worse than this. Without Gandalf's "healing" of Théoden, I think the retreat to Dunharrow and the subsequent defense of it is rather disorganized. Dunharrow falls to Saruman's army before Erkenbrand's force can arrive and that force is also subsequently defeated. Saruman's army likely returns to Isengard at that point but it is still a formidable force. Furthermore, without Gandalf breaking Saruman's power, Saruman remains quite dangerous and thus Saruman and his forces prevail. It's a pyrrhic victory but Rohan is gone. Saruman is still in deep trouble though as Sauron will eventually come looking for him.
I have to disagree about the ring bearer being killed. He would be captured and tortured by Sauron for daring to keep his ring or being intent on its destruction. Sadly, it would be better for Frodo and Sam if the Ringwraiths did simply just kill them 😭 Love the video though. Everything else is great. Thanks for another banger!
I would probably take Gandalf’s pronouncement that the Nazgûl can fly the distance between Barad-Dur and Orthanc in a few hours with a grain of salt and imprecise language.
Illuvatar wouldve intervened. The ring would pass to Sam somehow. Maybe frodo would sense the nazgul coming and give it to Sam and they split up. And Sam would escape somehow. It would be cool if frodo turned into a ring wraith and hunted for Sam. But now that frodo is a ring wraith Sauron would know that the plan is to destroy the ring in the fires of mount doom. Sauron would retreat to mordor and leave some orcs to help frodo search for Sam. Aragorn would by then reclaim the throne of gondor and march against mordor not knowing the fate of frodo. There would be a battle at the iron gates. Sam is going to need some help, maybe gwahiir picks him up and because the nazghul are back at the iron gates, gwahiir can fly Sam to mount doom. Aragorn and his army are wiped out, but their sacrifice gives Sam enough time to get to the lava. This time maybe frodo is there to stop Sam instead of gollum. They fight and maybe Sam throws himself into the fire sacrificing himself. Sauron is defeated but we get a bittersweet ending. When Sam wakes up he finds himself in the halls of mandos with all the fellowship except for frodo. The spirits of the fellowship sans legolas and gimli leave middle earth to be judged by iluvstar.
My only issue with this is that Eru Iluvitar always knew about the discord in the music and would have foreseen/allowed Gandalf to die. Therefore another door would have opened to the fall of Sauron just with different characters and circumstances.
Gandalf’s first intervention was actually when he strove to make Frodo remove the ring on Amon Sul. If that hadn’t happened, Sauron would’ve seen Frodo and ended up with the ring immediately. End of game.
I think we overlook that Gandalf HAD to return to counter the fall of Saurman the White. Or that the Valar/Eru send a new emissary. Maybe IF Sauron GETS the ring, then maybe Earendil returns to take him on and it gets even more biblical with fire and brimestone.
My thoughts always were even if he gets the ring back they still destroy him then Aragorn faces the same choice Isildur had. Also remember in this scenario Glorfindel can do some of the things Gandalf did when it comes to the unseen world.
Gandalf was sent back because without him the chance of Sauron winning was too great - for Eru to not directly interfere. But it makes me wonder why Eru didn't then just do even more.
As much as I enjoy these videos, for once I have to criticize just a little bit. How on earth do we end this theory video shortly after 15:07 without actually exploring what would have happened when Sauron's superior forces met Aragorn's army of the dead? IIRC they were built up in both the movie AND the books as being nigh unstoppable.
The book is what is canon and in them the Army of the Dead never went to Minas Tirith. Even if they did, they would have met the Witch King at The Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the Witch King was a powerful sorcerer with necromantic skills like his master Sauron. And if that wasn't enough, with the One Ring back, Sauron might just decide to be there for his triumph over his most hated foes and so much for the Army of the Dead.
Maybe a voice STILL tells Frodo to take off the ring -- it's what he THOUGHT Gandalf might have said. OR maybe it was Elrond, instead OR Galadriel. Either also did telepathy and could have helped. With no Gandalf, maybe one of those powerful beings becomes more involved to replace his role and THIS is the first example.
Do Balrogs fade into Maiar postmortem mist, too? Maybe the Valar kept Gandalf there because they couldn't send their cold wind from the West to deny the Balrog without also denying Gandalf's mist and eventually Eru was just like, "ah, screw it, wake him back up."
Very interesting. Now do a video on ...what if the Valar never sent the Istari to aid Middle Earth. Instead of just removing Gandalf...let's remove Saurman as well...and see how THAT plays out.
I think at one point or another, Eru intervenes. It is not the fate of men to fall into darkness. Eru would send an army of elves, maiar, and valar to Middle Earth to kill Sauron before he can take Minas Tirith.
I don't think Rohan has a chance without Gandalf. So no charge at Pelennor Fields, Gondor falls and Sauron's main army remains in Mordor, which screws over Frodo and the rings is lost.
You forgot about Eomer meeting Aragorn before they get to Fangorn! Personally, I think that the Free Peoples could have still won, although with much sorrow and loss (bye bye Faramir 😢). Aragorn would have had to expose Grima before Theoden. The part that’s not that clear is what would have happened to Frodo. I still think Gandalf in a way would have intervened at Amon Hen even if it was just as a Maia spirit. Which means he might have sticked around in his spirit form to intervene at crucial moments of the story. Unfortunately for Frodo and Sam, Gandalf being just a spirit means that when the Quest was finally fulfilled they would have died at the slopes of Mount Doom. Just my take on this theory though! 😅
@@happy_t-rex Oh, please don't take my word for it! The first meeting of Aragorn and Eomer happens in The Riders of Rohan chapter 2 of The Two Towers in which Eomer lends two horses to the Three Hunters. Then, he goes back to Edoras where he's imprisoned for disobeying the King's orders. In chapter 6 The King of the Golden Hall, Eomer is then freed by Hama after Gandalf has "cured" Theoden of the influence of Grima. I'm not trying to be right or wrong here: I'm just sharing my thoughts on how the events could have unfolded after Gandalf's death in Moria. Cheers!
Not healed. He is simply more functional in the books than the films. The movies have him basically possessed, whereas the books he is more overly trusting of Wormtongue, but not without his own agency.
If Pippin does not look in the Palantir at Orthanc, his flight to Gondor is not required, so the three hunters leave the hobbits in the care of Treebeard, and they are thus able to reason with Treebeard, making him less susceptible to the voice of Saruman. So they Ents do not let the wizard leave Isengard, and the scouring of the Shire never takes place. At least, it's not Sharkie and his henchmen that take over the hobbits' home. Perhaps their remote hovel would actually survive longer with Sauron's forces cutting a path of destruction across the homelands of the free peoples of Middle Earth.
Hey man love the content and I was wandering if you could do a video on what would happen if old man willow got the ring when he attacks the Hobbits. I thought that might be really interesting.
Before wven watching this - Rohan would have fallen due to the king being corrupted - The whote City would have fallen since Aragorn wouldnt have been given any information on the road prior to his arrival to the road of the dead and Rohan wouldnt have sent troops to help - Frodo would have been caught as the 'Diversion' wouldnt have happened
Wouldn't Theoden still be under the influence of Saruman and listing to Wormtongue, therefore, the army of the white hand would attack Edoras and their people would not be heading to Helm's deep. There would be no battle for Helm's deep, and the riders of Rohan would not have joined the people of Edoras. Just a thought.
I don't think Gandalf knew what the hell he was talking about in regard to Nazgûl flight speed. If we are treating the fell beasts as normal biological creatures without any significant magic effects at play, a sustained speed of 150-200mph is rather implausible.
In this timeline since the rohirim won’t help at Minas tirith the city would have fallen before Aragorn reaches it. Aragorn would die and the army of the dead either scatter or join Sauron out of fear. Thus falls the rest of the middle Earth
I can see it being even more bleak. With the Nazgul being able to reach them so fast, they'd probably would've arrived at the same time Boromir was defending the hobbits and Aragorn looking for Frodo. The Fellowship would've been wiped out at Amon Hen.
I must beg for your forgiveness. As I was listening to your discussion of how the action would be different in Fangorn and Rohan, I actually started to wonder if you’d forgotten about Gandalf’s help in Frodo‘s thoughts on Amon Hen. But of course, you were just waiting to share that devastating element at the most dramatic moment. Sorry I doubted you.
What if Bilbo had been forced to kill Gollum during "The Hobbit" ? Would Sauron had ever got to know that the Ring was in the Shire ? And if so: how and when ? Would that had changed the history of Middle Earth ?
If Bilbo gained the Ring the same way Gollum did, it would have had a more negative affect on him like corrupting his mind. Gandalf may have actually discovered sooner that this was the One Ring so a mission to destroy it may have happened sooner. All I can say for certain is the first part would happen and the Rings effects would have been more obvious on Bilbo.
I dont think this theory really works. The main point of Gandalf returning is the direct intervention of Eru that will result in Sauron's defeat (which would have to happen since Eru has all knowledge). So if Gandalf didnt return there would have to some alternative person or thing that results in the same outcome.
Gandalf the white was the Saruman who should be. If gandalf is dead that means Saruman is still fighting the sauron. So deviation point of story should be the start of trachery by saruman, which did not happen.
Check out The Lord of the Rings: Fate of the Fellowship board game: store.asmodee.com/products/the-lord-of-the-rings-fate-of-the-fellowship
No epilogue??
I like the ideas that you put forth about the plot changes in the story. I can't help feeling that the Dark Lord might have actually have gone to recover the Ring himself from Frodo. I don't know if Sauron had a physical body during the events of the Lord of the Rings
DUDE LOTR should have been a single book story , as the very moment that Gandalf took eagles to fly off Saruman's tower all he had to do is go grab Frodo, go to Tom Bombadil, tell Aragorn and Elrond to fake an incoronation in Minas Tirith, wait for the Nazgul to attack osghilliath as a diversion and then fly tom bobmadil to mount doom with a single eagle and have him drop the ring in the fire.
No one would have had to fight , no one would have died..
So the truth is that all the main heroes of LOTR are definitely imbeciles... but yeah nice to watch the fantasy show.. even if I like The Hobbit a million times better, even if in reality again, all gandalf had to do is ask the Elves to get to kill the dragon and not the dwarves.
And don't even dare to make an argument that Legolas would have failed to cast an arrow into the dragons weak spot.... that would be unrealistic after we was shown of what he was capable of in two stories..
Thank you at 5:20... First three mins I was like don't miss that at least lol
Can you do the rest of Feanors sons please much love
How about the opposite circumstance? What if Gandalf didn't die and remained with the Fellowship after Moria?
I have no idea if we can even guess on whether he'd get the same change of job description as in the canon case. On one hand, there is the same need for a White wizard on the side of the free peoples, on the other, this need has been there for a few decades, and didn't cause Gandalf's promotion before.
Men of the west has a video about this - still could be interesting to hear Nerd of the Rings’ take
I’ve thought about and watch videos on many things about middle earth but that is not something I ever thought about
I have thought of that and it would have been wise for Saruman to be sure he lived as a weaker Gandalf is more manageable. Why not allow him to simply ride off to seek out the Nazgul and help the hobbits then "help him" by clearing a pathway through the safest avenue possible and just tell Sauron where they were going.
This was my musing
Last time I was this early the two lamps were still standing
LOL
You must be Tom Bombadil.
What if the two lamps didn't destroyed
@@sajjadalhachami7574 there won't be the two trees of valinor and no sun and moon (?)
Excellent
A friendly reminder that Gandalf still needs food, water, and sleep. Yes, his maia nature did help him in the fight with the Balrog, but he was still starving and exhausted during the whole fight. I hope Gandalf is an even bigger badass in your eyes now.
I was not expecting Grima to be relevant that far into the story lol great video
The image of a Nazgul returning to Mordor on foot after losing his ride is hilarious
If Gandalf died, then the fate of Middle Earth would stand on the edge of a knife, even with the return of a king.
The return of the king probably wouldn't have even taken place if Gandalf stayed dead. Aragorn wouldn't have made it to Edoras, to helm's deep, to Isengard, to receive the palantir, to confront and distract sauron and give frodo time. None of that would've been possible without Gandalf's intervention in Fangorn and Rohan at least.
Without gandalf it is a hollow victory
@jakegold9036 Without Gandalf, there is no victory. Forget hollow.
Love the theory videos, every one of them seems completely plausible based on the effort you put into the research you do. Please keep it up
Currently at an extended edition marathon at the Rio Theatre in Vancouver! This is perfect for the next intermission!
Another awesome intro from this channel.
Never get tired to know more about Tolkien works and what if.
The fact that the winged beasts fly at a whopping 320kph is just too fast to be honest , way too fast. At that speed , not even taking size and time into account , The beast would just start to cook from the friction due to its huge size. So basically , the time frame should have been close to 15-20 hours which is a lot but makes the most sense i guess.
Makes me think Tolkien didn't think that through super well lol
The fastest flying animal is a diving peregrin falcon at maximum 389 kph (wikipedia). Apparently most birds fly at around 20 - 30 mph, or 30 - 50 kph, so I'd say a prolonged flight at 320 kph is about as fantastical as Ancalagon the black's size. I would rather interpret Gandalf's "a few hours" as between 20 to 40 hours.
@Mattias_the_unimpressive 100% agreed
they dont fly at 320 mph.
Orthanc and Barad Dur is about 500-600 miles, and Gandalf said the Nazgul would fly that in a couple of hours. Let's say 4 or 5, then we are at 125-150 miles per hour (still fast).
edit: nvm mph kph stupid hobbit here
Just more proof the metric system is inferior to freedom units
GRR Martin is probably thinking: That's how LOTR should have ended!
( If I am not mistaken, he really doesn't like Gandalf's resurrection. You know nothing, George!)
Says the guy who brought back Jon Snow and backpedalling on the wall for the final volume. At least Tolkien finish his books.
@@rogueascendant6611
I think he's just illustrating his lack of understanding of death in books. I think he has created his own cliché of just killing people because "muh realistic". Consistently doing things for shock value sucks
@@rogueascendant6611 technically he didn't finish his books as he didn't live to publish the Silmarillion and related stories.
Martin is very different from Tolkien as he limits magic in his world and makes stories realistic by having people die, mentioning logistics and politics of his world whilst Tolkien writes a mythology and doesn't even say if certain events actually. Martin just says it as is or say it is simply unknown.
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867Tolkien finished LotR and The Hobit. Anything else was a bonus. Martin has an entirely unfinished story that he refuses to finish while critiquing the reason he has an inspiration to begin with.
@@davidspring4003 The Silmarillion is the reason both of those books exist and most definitely not "a bonus". Tolkien didn't even make up his mind on the endings of those either as he altered them after publishing them.
how about a theory video were Saruman doesn't betray the free people's of middle earth and stays true to his mission?
Simple: Without Gandalf, the free peoples are ducked. The end.
Worst, Sauron The Necromancer, with the One Ring in his possession, would be able to influence Aragon's undead army right on Gondors doorstep.
So I'm going to keep asking this and hope you make a video on this. What if Smaug got the ring?
would smaug be able to even wield it? it wouldnt be able to fit on his talon lol. The ring was made for humanoid creatures not beasts
@@ginjaedgy49 We know the ring can change size, so I don't think it would be a problem to fit on his dragony fingers
@ i do wonder if it has its limits. i've not read the books so i dont know if thats explicitly stated or if people are just making assumptions because it would be logical to assume it can morph in size somewhat to fit the numerous ring wielders through the ages
@@ginjaedgy49 It was explicit, Isildur wrote that it shrank but lost not its beauty or shape. It was made to have only one wielder, Sauron.
Yay! Love these “what if” videos! The board game looks cool too! Thanks again. May the hair on your toes never fall out!
Much happens at Amon Hen. I feel that Frodo could hardly have missed noticing that Sauron spotted him, and I think this would have led him to choose a different path than going on without the rest of the Fellowship. Lots of possibilities there.
I love your Tolkien Theory videos. Always well researched which makes them very entertaining and intelligent to listen to.
I would love to see another one of Saruman. Specifically:
‘What if Saruman stayed loyal to Sauron?’
or
‘what if Saruman was redeemed?’ (Meaning Saruman accepted Gandalf’s proposal for redemption after the defeat of Isengard and aided Gandalf in the war of the ring).
"A few hours" could be longer, and Gandalf is speaking in, "less than a day"
In this scenario, it most likely wouldn't make too much of a difference in the end
When I was doing the dishes this morning, I had a thought: why Thorin's company didn't visit Bree on their way to Rivendell? They don't have enough time?
Tolkien attempted to make a re-write of the Hobbit to fit with LOTR, but he abandoned it. In it, the company did stop at Bree and even spent the night in the Prancing pony.
No hopeful "post-credits scene" for this scenario? I guess Middle-Earth is actually screwed this time.
Oh yeah huh didn’t think of this theory. What if the Eru Ex Machina with Gandalf didn’t happen.
You sound like GRR Martin.
Ah I see Martin has logged in with his burner account..finish the book
@@DmT922ha unfortunately, we haven't even caught a wind from "Winds of Winter," and it seems like "A deams of Spring" will remain only a dream.
But what if the voice Frodo is hearing on Amon Hen is not Gandalfs "actual voice" telepathically raeaching out to him, but Frodo remembering or anticipanting what his old friend would have said. In this moment of dire need he would most definitely be thinking "what would Gandalf have done" and thus might realise that Gandalf always warned him, not to use the ring. So Frodo might have taken off the ring just as in the books soon enough. And then?
Gandalf actually confirms in The Two Towers that he was the one speaking to Frodo. The Three Hunters wouldn't know exactly what he is talking about, but we as the readers, do.
Yep, they missed THIS HUGE fact.
The Black Riders would've caught ALL of them within a day......
Sorry that I doubted you. You saved the best/worst for last!
@@knines4280 I did too, and then he got to it.
Just said this elsewhere BUT what if Elrond OR Galadriel told him to take off the ring, instead (and maybe they step up more in Gandalf's absence?)
If the fell beasts fly at 320 km/h, maybe I could have made some money by selling the Nazgul some wind shields.
I just subscribed yesterday!
Love this Channel! Thank you for these great videos!
Tolkien had plenty of pieces left on the table to cover Gandalf's death if needed. For instance, Gandalf sent out Radagast to find the blue wizards before visiting Orthanc? Covered.
I don't think Sauromon would destroy Helms deep. It would make more sence for him to use a perfectly defencible fort as a barracks for his Orcs. Tactically, it makes sense. 😁
I’ve often thought that Aragorn should probably have went after Frodo and Sam to make sure that the ring was destroyed. It would be interesting to see how that would have went. Amazing video as usual!!!
That was never his plan, but he would have sent Gimli, the only other candidate for ring bearer, I think. (either Gandalf or Aragon had said the intent was the Gimli would continue with Frodo if I remember correctly).
@@johnmccracken3473 Interesting thought- Dwarves are far more resistant to the Rings than the other races. The Nine turned Men into wraith servants, while the Dwarves remained independent while wearing the Seven. And that was without the Dwarves even being aware that the Rings were "bad".
Gimli knew what must be done, and I think would not fall prey to the Ring's temptations at the end. And had Aragorn been with them... he knew the land as well, or better, than Gollum. He'd travelled to the far East, he'd been in the Morgul vale. He knew the paths into and around Mordor. Worst case scenario, he takes them the long way around, entering Mordor from the East. There's some risky periods around the Black Gate vicinity (if they go North), or in Ithilien if they go South, but as accomplished a woodsman as he was, he probably pulls it off. It would take a very long time, avoiding advancing armies of Easterlings or Haradrim, but then Sauron wouldn't have been pressed into battle just yet either. Ironically, once inside Mordor coming from the East, they still need Sauron to empty his lands (send armies out) to reach Mt Doom. So, Gondor falls. But Sauron, despite taking the victory there and maybe heading towards Lorien, ultimately is vanquished as Gimli tosses the Ring into the Fire. So the Dominion of Men begins anyway, but in a Dark Age.
What if Smaug never attacked Erebor?
Love this channel thank you for these videos ❤
Awesome theory video Matt!
Nice! Really enjoy these videos.
For what it's worth...it's entirely possible that Gandalf could have still helped Frodo while he was in spirit form (in this theory at least)
Thank you for continuing to use the word “Canon”. Because it is real and still very important.
Great to have a thought experiment like this. May I propose an alternative? Frodo struggles longer on Amon Hen. Galadriel or Elrond breaks him out of it 5 minutes later than Gandalf did. He takes longer to come to himself. The Nazgûl are on the way and arrive an hour or two later. Aragorn finds him at the foot of Amon Hen and per his plan he Gimli, Legolas and Sam accompany Frodo to Emin Muil and Botomirs last stand is ignored. The most skilled tracker in Middle Earth guides Frodo away while the Nazgûl arrive to find a dying Boromir. Discerning that 2 hobbits have been taken by Sarumans orcs they pursue and scatter the Orcs. Let’s say the hobbits escape. They then return to Barad Dur to report Sarumans treachery and that he will have the ring soon. Sauron only has the Nazgûl who can operate at this range so he sends them to lay siege to Orthanc and prevent the ring reaching Saruman. Too many possibilities after this but I think it could be a fun arc to follow.
Actually if Galadriel Elrond is too much of a stretch, Aragorn would probably get there after 15 mins and could physically break the spell on Frodo, at the top of Amon hen, in Saurons full gaze. Even more infuriating for him. At this point Frodo would be baggage for a few hours and it would be up in the air if they dash for Mordor or Gondor. Either way they wouldnt stick around for the Nazgûl.
The first person affected is Frodo on the hill of seeing while wearing the ring. Gandalf helps him and the text is clear that Sauron would have seen frodo and the ring clearly thus dooming the mission. This happens before the sundering of the fellowship.
Nothing gets me more excited than a new NOTR video. You my friend bow to no one
Also without Gandalf, Faramir would’ve died alongside his father - neither he nor Pippin would’ve been in Gondor when that was happening.
Great video! You even did the math! I have to say, that board game looks very promising.
Please make "What if every fellowship members survive never split up and stick together all the time of their quiest"
If Galdalf isn’t sent back then it’s curtains. illuvitar knew that
These theories are probably your best videos!! :D
"What if Bilbo joined The Fellowship" could be also an interesting scenario
Yea great i often think the same, but my perspective is bit different to me Bilbo probably a bit hard to manipulate like Frodo since he's older.
Great as always :). Just another idea of an explanation video came into my mind: Does the Mayar as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and the Balrogs know what they are? I would asume, that the bad ones know what they are. But as I remember, the Wizards never mentioned their origin - so, might it be, that they are unaware of what they are?
The fact that Rohan would withstand even without Gandalf is interesting. The more you delve deeper into the lore, the more it becomes obvious that the good guys weren't so impossibly outnumbered as in the film. The evil only seemed to be so powerful. Which is what I think may be the real moral of the story
Saturday. 5pm UK. Boom. Nerd video must watch time.
Wait, why would there be no force of Huorns at Dunharrow? It's not like the Ents went "oh, well, we guess we'll mop up the orcs at Helm's Deep" - Isengard is much closer to Fangorn than Helm's Deep, they were sent specifically to deal with the orc army. It'd take them a bit longer to reach Dunharrow, sure, but given the pace of things, the Huorns might well be reaching there before Aragorn and the Gray Company do. Those orcs get smashed by Huorns either way, the Huorns just might have to do some front line fighting rather than slaughtering an already-routed pack of survivors. The Huorns showing up at Helm's Deep is the demonstration that "Oh, the Ents are taking this seriously and being *thorough* ")
As far as I'm concerned, if Gandalf hadn't returned, the war for middle earth may have ended in Edoras. Without Gandalf, Aragorn and company would have continued searching for the Hobbits in and around Fangorn. Gandalf doesn't rescue Theoden from Saruman and Wormtongue, never goes to Helm's deep....Saruman may not even be overthrown by the Ents without Gandald. Frodo inevitably would've been captured somewhere east of Anduin, West of the black gate, and Sauron would've regained the ring. Party over. No return of the king, just the lands being covered in a second darkness.
I think that the only reason Eru would choose not to intervene to bring back Gandalf would be because there is another path to victory over Sauron. Perhaps he would have intervened instead by slipping the Ring off Frodo’s finger on Amon Hen just in time. Sauron would then be back to believing that the hobbits captured by Saruman were the Ring bearers and the quest might still have a chance.
I think the situation in Rohan would have turned out worse than this. Without Gandalf's "healing" of Théoden, I think the retreat to Dunharrow and the subsequent defense of it is rather disorganized. Dunharrow falls to Saruman's army before Erkenbrand's force can arrive and that force is also subsequently defeated. Saruman's army likely returns to Isengard at that point but it is still a formidable force. Furthermore, without Gandalf breaking Saruman's power, Saruman remains quite dangerous and thus Saruman and his forces prevail. It's a pyrrhic victory but Rohan is gone. Saruman is still in deep trouble though as Sauron will eventually come looking for him.
I love this channel
I have to disagree about the ring bearer being killed. He would be captured and tortured by Sauron for daring to keep his ring or being intent on its destruction.
Sadly, it would be better for Frodo and Sam if the Ringwraiths did simply just kill them 😭
Love the video though. Everything else is great. Thanks for another banger!
I would probably take Gandalf’s pronouncement that the Nazgûl can fly the distance between Barad-Dur and Orthanc in a few hours with a grain of salt and imprecise language.
Illuvatar wouldve intervened. The ring would pass to Sam somehow. Maybe frodo would sense the nazgul coming and give it to Sam and they split up. And Sam would escape somehow. It would be cool if frodo turned into a ring wraith and hunted for Sam. But now that frodo is a ring wraith Sauron would know that the plan is to destroy the ring in the fires of mount doom. Sauron would retreat to mordor and leave some orcs to help frodo search for Sam. Aragorn would by then reclaim the throne of gondor and march against mordor not knowing the fate of frodo. There would be a battle at the iron gates. Sam is going to need some help, maybe gwahiir picks him up and because the nazghul are back at the iron gates, gwahiir can fly Sam to mount doom. Aragorn and his army are wiped out, but their sacrifice gives Sam enough time to get to the lava. This time maybe frodo is there to stop Sam instead of gollum. They fight and maybe Sam throws himself into the fire sacrificing himself. Sauron is defeated but we get a bittersweet ending. When Sam wakes up he finds himself in the halls of mandos with all the fellowship except for frodo. The spirits of the fellowship sans legolas and gimli leave middle earth to be judged by iluvstar.
Gandalf was like the only one that seemed to be very loyal to his mission that would be the worthiest if he was to be ever killed he would be revived.
My only issue with this is that Eru Iluvitar always knew about the discord in the music and would have foreseen/allowed Gandalf to die. Therefore another door would have opened to the fall of Sauron just with different characters and circumstances.
Gandalf’s first intervention was actually when he strove to make Frodo remove the ring on Amon Sul. If that hadn’t happened, Sauron would’ve seen Frodo and ended up with the ring immediately. End of game.
I think we overlook that Gandalf HAD to return to counter the fall of Saurman the White. Or that the Valar/Eru send a new emissary. Maybe IF Sauron GETS the ring, then maybe Earendil returns to take him on and it gets even more biblical with fire and brimestone.
My thoughts always were even if he gets the ring back they still destroy him then Aragorn faces the same choice Isildur had. Also remember in this scenario Glorfindel can do some of the things Gandalf did when it comes to the unseen world.
Gandalf was sent back because without him the chance of Sauron winning was too great - for Eru to not directly interfere. But it makes me wonder why Eru didn't then just do even more.
I missed your What if videos
I've got some more planned on the way too!
Many thks Matt.
Bless you laddie❤
As much as I enjoy these videos, for once I have to criticize just a little bit. How on earth do we end this theory video shortly after 15:07 without actually exploring what would have happened when Sauron's superior forces met Aragorn's army of the dead? IIRC they were built up in both the movie AND the books as being nigh unstoppable.
The book is what is canon and in them the Army of the Dead never went to Minas Tirith. Even if they did, they would have met the Witch King at The Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the Witch King was a powerful sorcerer with necromantic skills like his master Sauron. And if that wasn't enough, with the One Ring back, Sauron might just decide to be there for his triumph over his most hated foes and so much for the Army of the Dead.
great video as always
No epilogue?
Man, I would have told that army of the dead to clear out everyone attacking Gondor and then move onto Mordor and clear that out as well.
Maybe a voice STILL tells Frodo to take off the ring -- it's what he THOUGHT Gandalf might have said. OR maybe it was Elrond, instead OR Galadriel. Either also did telepathy and could have helped. With no Gandalf, maybe one of those powerful beings becomes more involved to replace his role and THIS is the first example.
Why no epilogue this time?
Do Balrogs fade into Maiar postmortem mist, too? Maybe the Valar kept Gandalf there because they couldn't send their cold wind from the West to deny the Balrog without also denying Gandalf's mist and eventually Eru was just like, "ah, screw it, wake him back up."
Very interesting. Now do a video on ...what if the Valar never sent the Istari to aid Middle Earth. Instead of just removing Gandalf...let's remove Saurman as well...and see how THAT plays out.
I think at one point or another, Eru intervenes. It is not the fate of men to fall into darkness. Eru would send an army of elves, maiar, and valar to Middle Earth to kill Sauron before he can take Minas Tirith.
I don't think Rohan has a chance without Gandalf. So no charge at Pelennor Fields, Gondor falls and Sauron's main army remains in Mordor, which screws over Frodo and the rings is lost.
You forgot about Eomer meeting Aragorn before they get to Fangorn! Personally, I think that the Free Peoples could have still won, although with much sorrow and loss (bye bye Faramir 😢). Aragorn would have had to expose Grima before Theoden. The part that’s not that clear is what would have happened to Frodo. I still think Gandalf in a way would have intervened at Amon Hen even if it was just as a Maia spirit. Which means he might have sticked around in his spirit form to intervene at crucial moments of the story. Unfortunately for Frodo and Sam, Gandalf being just a spirit means that when the Quest was finally fulfilled they would have died at the slopes of Mount Doom. Just my take on this theory though! 😅
But in this scenario, Eomer is still imprisoned for speaking against Wormtongue. He never rides against these Orcs.
@@happy_t-rex Actually that happens after he and his Eored meet Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimly in the plains
@@esecarolus And you are of course right...
@@happy_t-rex Oh, please don't take my word for it! The first meeting of Aragorn and Eomer happens in The Riders of Rohan chapter 2 of The Two Towers in which Eomer lends two horses to the Three Hunters. Then, he goes back to Edoras where he's imprisoned for disobeying the King's orders. In chapter 6 The King of the Golden Hall, Eomer is then freed by Hama after Gandalf has "cured" Theoden of the influence of Grima. I'm not trying to be right or wrong here: I'm just sharing my thoughts on how the events could have unfolded after Gandalf's death in Moria. Cheers!
So Théoden heals but doesn’t heal? What happened there?
Not healed. He is simply more functional in the books than the films. The movies have him basically possessed, whereas the books he is more overly trusting of Wormtongue, but not without his own agency.
If Pippin does not look in the Palantir at Orthanc, his flight to Gondor is not required, so the three hunters leave the hobbits in the care of Treebeard, and they are thus able to reason with Treebeard, making him less susceptible to the voice of Saruman. So they Ents do not let the wizard leave Isengard, and the scouring of the Shire never takes place. At least, it's not Sharkie and his henchmen that take over the hobbits' home. Perhaps their remote hovel would actually survive longer with Sauron's forces cutting a path of destruction across the homelands of the free peoples of Middle Earth.
Hey man love the content and I was wandering if you could do a video on what would happen if old man willow got the ring when he attacks the Hobbits. I thought that might be really interesting.
Before wven watching this
- Rohan would have fallen due to the king being corrupted
- The whote City would have fallen since Aragorn wouldnt have been given any information on the road prior to his arrival to the road of the dead and Rohan wouldnt have sent troops to help
- Frodo would have been caught as the 'Diversion' wouldnt have happened
Wish you released a rings of power season 2 review
Took a break for the holidays, but working on it now! Hopefully will have it ready in a few weeks!
What about the Army of the Dead, is Sauron great enough to destroy them? Im guesisng he is?
If Gandalf didn't return, we'd still have Gandalf the Gay.
Saroman: Gandalf is gay!
Wouldn't Theoden still be under the influence of Saruman and listing to Wormtongue, therefore, the army of the white hand would attack Edoras and their people would not be heading to Helm's deep.
There would be no battle for Helm's deep, and the riders of Rohan would not have joined the people of Edoras.
Just a thought.
What about ghost army, not immortal?
If Gandalf never returned from fighting Durin's Bane, Saruman would have the upper hand. I dread to think about it.
How did the eorlingas survive the sack of helms deep? Did they escape through the glittering caves?
I don't think Gandalf knew what the hell he was talking about in regard to Nazgûl flight speed. If we are treating the fell beasts as normal biological creatures without any significant magic effects at play, a sustained speed of 150-200mph is rather implausible.
Then we would have to recruit Radagast the Brown to help the Fellowship. His shrooms will probably help greatly.
In this timeline since the rohirim won’t help at Minas tirith the city would have fallen before Aragorn reaches it. Aragorn would die and the army of the dead either scatter or join Sauron out of fear. Thus falls the rest of the middle Earth
The theory video nobody ever wanted: 'Where is Elrond never kissed Galadriel?'
😂😂😂
I can see it being even more bleak. With the Nazgul being able to reach them so fast, they'd probably would've arrived at the same time Boromir was defending the hobbits and Aragorn looking for Frodo. The Fellowship would've been wiped out at Amon Hen.
That's a really great point I hadn't considered! The entire fellowship might have been wiped out at Amon Hen! Great point!
FYI, "Muil" would most likely be pronounced as "Meer" or "Mur" (long U), rather than the phonetic "Moo-eer". 🙂
13:58 if Frodo has the ring on, Sam shouldnt be able to find him. 🤔
I must beg for your forgiveness. As I was listening to your discussion of how the action would be different in Fangorn and Rohan, I actually started to wonder if you’d forgotten about Gandalf’s help in Frodo‘s thoughts on Amon Hen. But of course, you were just waiting to share that devastating element at the most dramatic moment. Sorry I doubted you.
The Middle-earth equivalent of Zelda's Fallen Hero Timeline - all differences considered, obviously.
hi, i am impressed by this video, can you make a video called "what if morgoth wins..."
What if Bilbo had been forced to kill Gollum during "The Hobbit" ? Would Sauron had ever got to know that the Ring was in the Shire ? And if so: how and when ? Would that had changed the history of Middle Earth ?
If Bilbo gained the Ring the same way Gollum did, it would have had a more negative affect on him like corrupting his mind. Gandalf may have actually discovered sooner that this was the One Ring so a mission to destroy it may have happened sooner. All I can say for certain is the first part would happen and the Rings effects would have been more obvious on Bilbo.
This is too sad. I shouldn't have seen this during my anxious period in the middle of the night. 🙃🙃🙃
I dont think this theory really works. The main point of Gandalf returning is the direct intervention of Eru that will result in Sauron's defeat (which would have to happen since Eru has all knowledge). So if Gandalf didnt return there would have to some alternative person or thing that results in the same outcome.
His resumè could not pass muster his disappearance could not be checked
Gandalf the white was the Saruman who should be. If gandalf is dead that means Saruman is still fighting the sauron. So deviation point of story should be the start of trachery by saruman, which did not happen.