As long as the use these historic names on carriers, In hip. Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown and of course Enterprise should ALWAYS grace the seas as part of our carrier fleet.
I served aboard the illustrious Saratoga as an Aviation Fire Control Petty officer (Radar Tech) attached to VF103 (Fighter Squadron) on parts of two med cruises and most notably during her Vietnam Cruise. At the time, there was no other like her. After she was decommissioned, I took my son on a cruise on our 26' boat south from our home in Philadelphia and were able to pull up next to the Saratoga after the "island" was removed at the Philadelphia naval yard, sitting next to her sister ship, the USS Forestall, each waiting to be turned into scrap. From the port side of my boat, I was able to reach out ad touch Sara's hull, explaining to my son that this was the ship that I spent 11 months on off of the coast of Vietnam. Memories came flooding back to me about my times on the Sara, of all the ports I had visited while stationed aboard her, and it brought pride driven tears to my eyes, being able to share that visit to an old friend with my son. I consider my time in the Navy one of the best times in my life.
Thank you for this video. I am a former Sara sailor, serving on her for the Desert Storm and following deployment where the Turkish friendly fire incident occurred. I know you have a limited time for each video. But the ferry boat accident in Haifa during the Desert Storm deployment resulted in the death of over 20 sailors from the Saratoga. It was very tragic. I happened to have duty on the ship that day which proved lucky for me as there was a good chance I would have been on that ferry to come back given the time it happened. Also your presentation of what happened to cause the firing on the Turkish ship was way over simplified. I was on watch in the Combat Direction Center siting the Strike Control position when it happened. I was three seats down from the fire control men that fired the missles, located next to the Ships Weapons Control and very near the TAO. I remember that event quite well. You left out many details for sure.
I was aboard the Sara from September 71 to April 73. Loved my ship. Vietnam was my primary tour. I was on duty during the big fire while anchored in Singapore.
My brother served on the Sara. They called her the Sinking Sara at the time. He was on her when she went to Vietnam. I’ve got his Saratoga cookbook, mug and uniform. I got the chance to go aboard when she was in Mayport. She is BIG! I got lost in less than 5 minutes! Everything was absolutely awesome. Except the galley. No way could I eat there. But everything was so organized. Oh, when they say clear the way, they kinda mean it. Thank you for sharing this with us!
I was on USS Conolly in the 80's and we were part of Sara's battlegroup for a time. I skipped to the 80s-90s period and will go back to the rest, but I want to say Bravo Zulu, sir. For you to even hear about the water taxi incident is impressive!! You're doing a great job with your channel, thank you for your work!
Very interesting video. Thanks! I had never heard of that friendly fire incident with the F-14 and RF-4. I read more about it. The RF-4 pilot, Michael Ross, had a life long spinal injury that forced him to retire and eventually crippled him permanently.
The Soviets put a lot of heavy missiles on their carriers because their aircraft aren't for crap. Got to be able to hit the enemy somehow! Also by having a bunch of missiles on board they claim that the carrier is a cruiser so they can get it through the straits due to the treaty that governs warships going through the Dardanelles straight. Aircraft carriers aren't allowed to go through the straight. So their carriers are missile cruisers. Another way to describe them is a Ronson.
I was in an F14 squadron aboard USS George Washington on it's maiden cruise in 1994. We relieved Saratoga on it's final cruise. She looked a bit tired and ready go go home.
1956 to 1994 on military tempo. And the flight deck design was not efficient as the later Constellation, Kitty Hawk vessels that also were decommissioned.
I'd love to see another USS Saratoga instead of all the presidential-named carriers of today especially those whose presidency was not at all outstanding
I agree. The old tradition of naming CV's for battles and old Continental Navy ship should be used. The Navy has come up with some stupid names over the years, one of the most stupid being the USS Jimmy Carter, a submarine.
@@88mike42 It could be worse, considering that Carter did serve in the navy. As he is a former naval officer and worked with submarines, I think he is a better choice than some other presidents who got ships named after them.
I was in the USN aboard USS Strong DD 758 and part of US Six fleet Saratoga task force in the Mediterranean Sea 1964 . The Strong also was part of CVN 65 Big E's task force World Cruise . USS Enterprise CVN 65 was the FIRST NUCLEAR POWERED Aircraft Carrier in early 1960s
Even if the funds were available, the US government was never going to allow a Forrestal or Kitty hawk to be preserved as an open-to-public museum because they were, in many ways, just nuts and bolts away from a Nimitz. The Kitty Hawk and Nimitz classes had improved elevator arrangement, but those differences could be accounted for with public knowledge. And the steam to nuclear propulsion jump is also rather easy to achieve, since nuclear propulsion is just nuclear-heated steam and, if you have submarine reactors, you just scale it up.
I was an AT2 in VA-44 and the squadron was aboard the Saratoga on her shakedown cruise in 1956. Tragically a member of the deck crew was blown over the side on the first day of air operations. He did not survive. 🙁🙁
I was on CV60 in the division that fired the missiles. The sailor that fired the missiles asked the TAO if it was the real thing before firing and the TAO said yes...!
I was at the Phila Naval Shipyard when the ex-USS Gwin (DM-33) was pulled out of the Reserve Basic and underwent that restoration for the Turks. IIRR, it actually refurbished her WWII-era 40mm AA guns rather than install 3.50 modern equivalents. This was in 1971. I did not know about this friendly fire incident! So thanks for the info. There was also a story that one of the Turkish sailors on the ship committed a "hanging offense," and was literally scheduled "to be hung from the yardarm" until the U.S. Navy authorities informed the Turks that it couldn't be done in the Navy Yard!
@@haroldcarfrey4206 That sounds plausible, though by the time I heard the story, it definitely was "scuttlebutt." The six months I spent at PNSY were among the most remarkable of my working life. As a "Ship Supt" I interacted with all the shops there and found the process of rebuilding a ship fascinating. I worked on the USS Macdonough (DLG-8). I happened to be on watch as Shipyard Duty Officer, and on was on a weather deck of the ship the night the tanker Elias blew up at the refinery pier just downriver. A night to remember and all that. How did you happen to be at the yard, and when?
@@Redhand1949 Read the report filed by the Masters at Arms in the National Archives. I was US Army intelligence, but my degrees include Industrial and Military History. It was misfiled with other paperwork in a box on military procurement...
The nickname I've heard most often was "Sorry Sara." You also didn't mention the workers killed during construction. Supposedly, one worker was trapped when pouring concrete ballast near the keel. There were reports of him haunting the ship and sailors hearing scraping noises deep in the ship near the site of the accident. I suspect the reason the name hasn't been reused is that she was considered andl unlucky ship, as your many examples explain. (I hear the CV-2 version of Saratoga was also considered unlucky)
@@TPaine1776 Served aboard the Saratoga with attack squadron VA-37 after her Vietnam deployment, she came out of shipyards for her next deployment to the Mediterranean and right away bent one of her propeller shafts during a carrier qualification run due to disposing a landing gear cable over the side that got up in one of her propeller’s. The new captain was given orders to keep her speed down because of the bent shaft. As the deployment was fast approaching and no time to go back into the ship yard for repairs. On a run down the coast of Florida the captain decided to test her speed with the bad propeller and shaft. The result was the vibration was so bad, as she hit 33 knots a huge crack developed in her hull, she started taking on more water than she could handle even with extra pumps we got from our escorts. We made it back to our home port of Mayport but she was low in the water at 41 feet of draft with our pier depth of around 37 feet. All the sea tugs came out and pushed us into the harbor though the mud and got us close enough to the pier, were they could drop our gangway on to a couple of flat barges so we could walk across the barges to get to the pier landing. First one up the gangway was a Admiral who immediately relieved the captain of his command. So yes I guess we were sitting on bottom but we hadn’t quite made it to the pier so to speck.
My late brother was an FC on Sea Sparrows on Sara (left before 92 incident though). He was involved in the rescue efforts during the ferry accident in Haifa in 1990. It is forgotten by most as a minor incident in a long ship's history but definitely had a lasting effect on all those involved. 21 good men died that night and many more injured or affected by watching their shipmates die in an accident not even involving their own ship. Fair Winds and Following Seas for the 21
I was stationed on her from 77 to 80..I worked on the flight deck as a fuels QA supervisor.aka grapes..3 med. Cruises on her.going thru the straits of Gibraltar a freighter collided with us...then we heard gq gq all hands man your battle stations.this is not a drill.
i was on this ship in VF-103 fighter squadron that was assigned the SARATOGA. from 1970 to 1972 i took. 2 med cruises and part of other ships deplored to VIET NAM. i was flown off while there and headed to treasure island for discharge from Navy in August 1972.
1) While a Forrestal Class Carrier like the Sara was big, Kitty Hawk and newer carriers were noticeably bigger (as if you were standing on the flightdeck of a Forrestal Class Ship pier-side next to a Kitty Hawk Class Carrier you looked up at their flightdeck). 2) One of Sara's less than favorite nicknames was "Pier 60 at NS Mayport".
As if I couldn't be more irritated about cities subsidizing sports teams with public money, this practice also killed CV60. Couldn't happen to a more ass backward society.
All the city looked at was the dollar bill unfortunately. The civilians didn't care all they knew was that they were getting a new stadium. Politics as usual.
We need to stop naming aircraft carriers after presidents and go back to the old way of naming them after important battles or famous ships. How many USS John F Kennedys do we need, really? The names Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, Essex, and Franklin need to be revived.
Like in the old days ! Like in ww-2, let me think, oh ya, back in 1943 the new carrier CV-42 Franklin D Roosevelt. But even in today’s world not all US carriers are named after presidents. I served aboard CV-60 USS Saratoga in the mid seventies, the sixth US Navy ship to carry the name and the second US carrier. We have Carriers today that are not named after US presidents.
People don't understand the size of these ships. The chain links are as big around on one side as my torso, each link weighs hundreds of pounds. 5,000 men aboard when the Air Wing is aboard. 90 aircraft not to mention the bombs, and fuel. Turning her into a museum would take millions, and then dry dock every 20 years. I know those who served aboard would like to see her as a museum, or not, but people have to understand the cost. Let the USS Texas be the model.
Point well taken, I served aboard the Sara in the mid seventies, what I felt was they should of saved one of the eight conventional powered super carriers but none were saved. I’m a firm believer that we could of designed a dry berth for a ship, that way you wouldn’t require dry docking ever 20 years or so and which could of preserve and maintained a ship, long term for far less money. Would of loved showing my family a super carrier like what I served on. The old WW-2 carrier’s that were saved are great, but are so much smaller than the later super carriers
FYI: The US Navy, our US Navy, is getting smaller and smaller every decade. Recently, the USN's shipbuilding program called for more ships to be scrapped than new ships commissioned. And the ships being decommissioned and scrapped? Some are just a few years old....already deemed "obsolete" by today's Navy's "big thinkers".
Well, some of the decommissioned ships have egging problems that the navy has tried everything to fix, and just decided they would be better off without them
Great video! And I agree, we need the names Saratoga (along with Lexington) back in the navy.
As long as the use these historic names on carriers, In hip. Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown and of course Enterprise should ALWAYS grace the seas as part of our carrier fleet.
As a Jacksonville Florida native, Super Sara was everything. CV-60 never forgotten
I served aboard the illustrious Saratoga as an Aviation Fire Control Petty officer (Radar Tech) attached to VF103 (Fighter Squadron) on parts of two med cruises and most notably during her Vietnam Cruise. At the time, there was no other like her. After she was decommissioned, I took my son on a cruise on our 26' boat south from our home in Philadelphia and were able to pull up next to the Saratoga after the "island" was removed at the Philadelphia naval yard, sitting next to her sister ship, the USS Forestall, each waiting to be turned into scrap. From the port side of my boat, I was able to reach out ad touch Sara's hull, explaining to my son that this was the ship that I spent 11 months on off of the coast of Vietnam. Memories came flooding back to me about my times on the Sara, of all the ports I had visited while stationed aboard her, and it brought pride driven tears to my eyes, being able to share that visit to an old friend with my son. I consider my time in the Navy one of the best times in my life.
As a member of Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club also, I was the A+O Power PO on the flight deck.
VAW 123 Airfrmes final checker 70 - 73.
Hello fellow ShellBack.
I can’t remember my brother’s exact position. I do know it was radar or maybe sonar? He had some awesome stories y’all.
I was a plane captain for VF103 and eventually I went to Jet Mech . A.D. 1982-1987
Thank you for this video. I am a former Sara sailor, serving on her for the Desert Storm and following deployment where the Turkish friendly fire incident occurred. I know you have a limited time for each video. But the ferry boat accident in Haifa during the Desert Storm deployment resulted in the death of over 20 sailors from the Saratoga. It was very tragic. I happened to have duty on the ship that day which proved lucky for me as there was a good chance I would have been on that ferry to come back given the time it happened. Also your presentation of what happened to cause the firing on the Turkish ship was way over simplified. I was on watch in the Combat Direction Center siting the Strike Control position when it happened. I was three seats down from the fire control men that fired the missles, located next to the Ships Weapons Control and very near the TAO. I remember that event quite well. You left out many details for sure.
I was aboard the Sara from September 71 to April 73. Loved my ship. Vietnam was my primary tour. I was on duty during the big fire while anchored in Singapore.
My brother served on the Sara. They called her the Sinking Sara at the time. He was on her when she went to Vietnam. I’ve got his Saratoga cookbook, mug and uniform. I got the chance to go aboard when she was in Mayport. She is BIG! I got lost in less than 5 minutes! Everything was absolutely awesome. Except the galley. No way could I eat there. But everything was so organized. Oh, when they say clear the way, they kinda mean it. Thank you for sharing this with us!
My Uncle served on this ship on his first assignment in the 80's. Its a shame she wasn't preserved.
I was on USS Conolly in the 80's and we were part of Sara's battlegroup for a time. I skipped to the 80s-90s period and will go back to the rest, but I want to say Bravo Zulu, sir. For you to even hear about the water taxi incident is impressive!! You're doing a great job with your channel, thank you for your work!
Great recap! Too bad the politics have turned against using these historical names.
My dad, while in the Navy was Sara's ship's master mechanic when in Bremerton, WA...long, long ago.
Very interesting video. Thanks! I had never heard of that friendly fire incident with the F-14 and RF-4. I read more about it. The RF-4 pilot, Michael Ross, had a life long spinal injury that forced him to retire and eventually crippled him permanently.
Thanks for mentioning the Liberty.....inconvient facts are rarely spoken in modern times
My brother was wounded on the U.S.S Liberty AGTR-5.
The Soviets put a lot of heavy missiles on their carriers because their aircraft aren't for crap. Got to be able to hit the enemy somehow! Also by having a bunch of missiles on board they claim that the carrier is a cruiser so they can get it through the straits due to the treaty that governs warships going through the Dardanelles straight. Aircraft carriers aren't allowed to go through the straight. So their carriers are missile cruisers. Another way to describe them is a Ronson.
I was in an F14 squadron aboard USS George Washington on it's maiden cruise in 1994. We relieved Saratoga on it's final cruise. She looked a bit tired and ready go go home.
1956 to 1994 on military tempo. And the flight deck design was not efficient as the later Constellation, Kitty Hawk vessels that also were decommissioned.
I'd love to see another USS Saratoga instead of all the presidential-named carriers of today especially those whose presidency was not at all outstanding
I agree. The old tradition of naming CV's for battles and old Continental Navy ship should be used. The Navy has come up with some stupid names over the years, one of the most stupid being the USS Jimmy Carter, a submarine.
@@88mike42
It could be worse, considering that Carter did serve in the navy.
As he is a former naval officer and worked with submarines, I think he is a better choice than some other presidents who got ships named after them.
@@graceneilitz7661 I'm not sure a name worse than "Jimmy" Carter could be found...maybe the USS Carter would be easier to stomach.
Served aboard Sara 70-74, M div ! So very proud to have called her my home for 4 years !
The fighter of the Vietnam war was the F-4 Phantom, but the F-8 Crusader was my favorite until the F-14 Tomcat.
They name ships for politicians now.........unfortunately.
Yeah. When I was a kid I had a model of CV-60.
.
I was in the USN aboard USS Strong DD 758 and part of US Six fleet Saratoga task force in the Mediterranean Sea 1964 . The Strong also was part of CVN 65 Big E's task force World Cruise . USS Enterprise CVN 65 was the FIRST NUCLEAR POWERED Aircraft Carrier in early 1960s
It was a real shame Saratoga didn't preserved. Perhaps one day her name will be continued...
Even if the funds were available, the US government was never going to allow a Forrestal or Kitty hawk to be preserved as an open-to-public museum because they were, in many ways, just nuts and bolts away from a Nimitz. The Kitty Hawk and Nimitz classes had improved elevator arrangement, but those differences could be accounted for with public knowledge. And the steam to nuclear propulsion jump is also rather easy to achieve, since nuclear propulsion is just nuclear-heated steam and, if you have submarine reactors, you just scale it up.
CV-6 should of been preserved
I was hoping that they would turn her into a artificial reef.....it would benefit the local fishing/diving community.
I was an AT2 in VA-44 and the squadron was aboard the Saratoga on her shakedown cruise in 1956. Tragically a member of the deck crew was blown over the side on the first day of air operations. He did not survive. 🙁🙁
The big bear visited the Ranger for 1974 cruise, and then the 1976 cruise. We had sonar of submarines so we had helicopters tailing their submarines.
My Father served on CV-3 USS Saratoga, 1932 thru 1936
My father served on the Saratoga in the late 60’s
I was on CV60 in the division that fired the missiles. The sailor that fired the missiles asked the TAO if it was the real thing before firing and the TAO said yes...!
I was at the Phila Naval Shipyard when the ex-USS Gwin (DM-33) was pulled out of the Reserve Basic and underwent that restoration for the Turks. IIRR, it actually refurbished her WWII-era 40mm AA guns rather than install 3.50 modern equivalents. This was in 1971. I did not know about this friendly fire incident! So thanks for the info. There was also a story that one of the Turkish sailors on the ship committed a "hanging offense," and was literally scheduled "to be hung from the yardarm" until the U.S. Navy authorities informed the Turks that it couldn't be done in the Navy Yard!
If its the incident I recall, the sailor attempted to molest/molested/got his testicles punted by a female yard worker...
@@haroldcarfrey4206 That sounds plausible, though by the time I heard the story, it definitely was "scuttlebutt." The six months I spent at PNSY were among the most remarkable of my working life. As a "Ship Supt" I interacted with all the shops there and found the process of rebuilding a ship fascinating. I worked on the USS Macdonough (DLG-8). I happened to be on watch as Shipyard Duty Officer, and on was on a weather deck of the ship the night the tanker Elias blew up at the refinery pier just downriver. A night to remember and all that. How did you happen to be at the yard, and when?
@@Redhand1949 Read the report filed by the Masters at Arms in the National Archives. I was US Army intelligence, but my degrees include Industrial and Military History. It was misfiled with other paperwork in a box on military procurement...
The nickname I've heard most often was "Sorry Sara." You also didn't mention the workers killed during construction. Supposedly, one worker was trapped when pouring concrete ballast near the keel. There were reports of him haunting the ship and sailors hearing scraping noises deep in the ship near the site of the accident.
I suspect the reason the name hasn't been reused is that she was considered andl unlucky ship, as your many examples explain. (I hear the CV-2 version of Saratoga was also considered unlucky)
The one I heard, from a former Sara sailor, was Sinking Sara. He said she sank tied up to the pier.
"Sinking 60 from Dixie" another not flattering nickname.
We use to call her " The Suckin 60 from Dixie ".
@@TPaine1776 Served aboard the Saratoga with attack squadron VA-37 after her Vietnam deployment, she came out of shipyards for her next deployment to the Mediterranean and right away bent one of her propeller shafts during a carrier qualification run due to disposing a landing gear cable over the side that got up in one of her propeller’s. The new captain was given orders to keep her speed down because of the bent shaft. As the deployment was fast approaching and no time to go back into the ship yard for repairs. On a run down the coast of Florida the captain decided to test her speed with the bad propeller and shaft. The result was the vibration was so bad, as she hit 33 knots a huge crack developed in her hull, she started taking on more water than she could handle even with extra pumps we got from our escorts. We made it back to our home port of Mayport but she was low in the water at 41 feet of draft with our pier depth of around 37 feet. All the sea tugs came out and pushed us into the harbor though the mud and got us close enough to the pier, were they could drop our gangway on to a couple of flat barges so we could walk across the barges to get to the pier landing. First one up the gangway was a Admiral who immediately relieved the captain of his command. So yes I guess we were sitting on bottom but we hadn’t quite made it to the pier so to speck.
My late brother was an FC on Sea Sparrows on Sara (left before 92 incident though). He was involved in the rescue efforts during the ferry accident in Haifa in 1990. It is forgotten by most as a minor incident in a long ship's history but definitely had a lasting effect on all those involved. 21 good men died that night and many more injured or affected by watching their shipmates die in an accident not even involving their own ship. Fair Winds and Following Seas for the 21
Sara was my home 60-62 departed just before theCuban Missle crisis.
Sucking 60 from Dixie was the nickname when I was in the airwing (1967-1970).
Then they went candy ass with the super sara bullshit.
Served on Sara 1973-1977 V-4 div. on the roof and below decks.
I was stationed on her. Thank You. The Saratoga was supposed to be a special class carrier, known as CVB for "Big" She was the only one built.
Nice
Lebanon in 76, the collision in 78… yeah, I remember that.
I served on her during desert sheild /desert storm G-1 weps
87 , 88 medcriuse cag-17 USS SARATOGA
Served on SuperSara 89-92, V2 division.
You did not mention if the Captains got relieved after the collisions.
MM3 here served 92-94 in 1MMR.
I was stationed on her from 77 to 80..I worked on the flight deck as a fuels QA supervisor.aka grapes..3 med. Cruises on her.going thru the straits of Gibraltar a freighter collided with us...then we heard gq gq all hands man your battle stations.this is not a drill.
The USS Ranger had a fire at Subic Bay in 1976.
i was on this ship in VF-103 fighter squadron that was assigned the SARATOGA. from 1970 to 1972 i took. 2 med cruises and part of other ships deplored to VIET NAM. i was flown off while there and headed to treasure island for discharge from Navy in August 1972.
1) While a Forrestal Class Carrier like the Sara was big, Kitty Hawk and newer carriers were noticeably bigger (as if you were standing on the flightdeck of a Forrestal Class Ship pier-side next to a Kitty Hawk Class Carrier you looked up at their flightdeck).
2) One of Sara's less than favorite nicknames was "Pier 60 at NS Mayport".
Kitty Hawk was almost identical in size to the Sara, the kitty was only 5 feet longer.
China makes Japan scramble jets more than once a day... Every day.
So Soviet/American style posturing isn't something of the past.
As if I couldn't be more irritated about cities subsidizing sports teams with public money, this practice also killed CV60.
Couldn't happen to a more ass backward society.
All the city looked at was the dollar bill unfortunately. The civilians didn't care all they knew was that they were getting a new stadium. Politics as usual.
At 8:29, the picture is not accurate. For there are S-3 Vikings and F-14s.
Good catch, he doesn't know his ass from a fucking hole in the ground.
We need to stop naming aircraft carriers after presidents and go back to the old way of naming them after important battles or famous ships. How many USS John F Kennedys do we need, really? The names Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, Essex, and Franklin need to be revived.
Like in the old days ! Like in ww-2, let me think, oh ya, back in 1943 the new carrier CV-42 Franklin D Roosevelt. But even in today’s world not all US carriers are named after presidents. I served aboard CV-60 USS Saratoga in the mid seventies, the sixth US Navy ship to carry the name and the second US carrier. We have Carriers today that are not named after US presidents.
People don't understand the size of these ships. The chain links are as big around on one side as my torso, each link weighs hundreds of pounds. 5,000 men aboard when the Air Wing is aboard. 90 aircraft not to mention the bombs, and fuel. Turning her into a museum would take millions, and then dry dock every 20 years. I know those who served aboard would like to see her as a museum, or not, but people have to understand the cost. Let the USS Texas be the model.
Point well taken, I served aboard the Sara in the mid seventies, what I felt was they should of saved one of the eight conventional powered super carriers but none were saved. I’m a firm believer that we could of designed a dry berth for a ship, that way you wouldn’t require dry docking ever 20 years or so and which could of preserve and maintained a ship, long term for far less money. Would of loved showing my family a super carrier like what I served on. The old WW-2 carrier’s that were saved are great, but are so much smaller than the later super carriers
Aca...indiana...
FYI: The US Navy, our US Navy, is getting smaller and smaller every decade. Recently, the USN's shipbuilding program called for more ships to be scrapped than new ships commissioned. And the ships being decommissioned and scrapped? Some are just a few years old....already deemed "obsolete" by today's Navy's "big thinkers".
Well, some of the decommissioned ships have egging problems that the navy has tried everything to fix, and just decided they would be better off without them