@FlatironsTuning with all the money I have in this narrow body WRX I could own an Audi RS3, well when you could get a RS3 for about 53k used. Love these debates, even if I could have a Audi or Porsche I would still get a 2014 or older Subaru WRX/STI, or 2.5GT/Spec. B before a RS.
First time Subaru owner here. 24 WRX. My criteria was fun to drive manual car with some power. This is my daily. Previous car was an Accord Sport. I needed something more. I missed the pickup of a turbo car. I considered a Golf GTI. Settled on the WRX because it has more interior room, a lot of reviews said GTI infotainment was wonky. I know some people hate the big screen in the WRX but it doesn't bother me. I feel like the WRX is also a better foundation for mods than the GTI. The fact that it has lower boost from the factory, people are turning it up a little bit and getting good gains. GTI has high boost from factory. I've always been into Hondas and Mazdas. Also considered Civic Si, just too pedestrian. Type R was still unobtanium with dealer markups and I heard about how stuff the suspension is. Mazda doesn't offer a turbo manuals car anymore. To confirm your stereotype I am in my 40s but not in IT. I am an engineer though. I may take the car to an autocross or track day and I may not. I have 2 Miatas so I have lots of choices.
Thanks for watching and thanks for detailing how you picked the WRX. Makes a lot of sense! Miata is always the answer, but I bet you would have run tracking with WRX as well. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
I think Subaru has backed off of supporting their cars, in general. When they're issuing a notice that they're starting to discontinue parts for the 2021 STI already, it doesn't matter how long the cars will last if the parts production will fall almost entirely on the aftermarket. If this continues, I see Toyota gaining a lot of new customers with their growing sportscar/fun car lineup. Toyota announced they're working on the next Celica, theres bubblings of a new MR2, the S-FR, the Supra, and the Corolla GR.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Definitely agree about what Toyota is doing. I half wonder if part of the reason Toyota is coming back into the enthusiast market so strongly is that they realize how much of that market they lost when they didn't have any "fun" cars for about 15 years.... A lesson that Subaru will hopefully learn without doing the same. Stay Tuned!
i hate the world of social media(although all the information flatirons and iag has provided via podcast has been a game changer). i wish i was driving during the prime of forums. I didn't get my 04 wrx till 2017 and i spend hours every day reading nasioc and trying to continue topics.
Had a '17 brz that treated me well and I enjoyed more than my s14 and z. When I had my 3rd kid I just couldn't justify it anymore. I needed 4 doors, a warranty, and didn't want to break the bank. '24 VB checked a lot of boxes for me, hoping to autox or rallyx soon.
Great to hear. We are planning to do the same with our VB, and I think that the chassis is well suited to those, especially RallyX. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
It does matter that you can’t buy the car (or a version of the car) that you’re seeing on the tv anymore. Whether it’s racing or “social media cars” you can’t really buy a production version of “that car” anymore and no more group n parts etc. is an extension of that.
Yes, that’s the change that we all feel and that we were reacting to. That Subaru motorsports involvement is no longer about producing a car and an ecosystem that people can go and race with. But rather generating social media buzz so they can sell their CVT-equipped mall crawlers. And maybe a WRX here or there.
I purchased my first Subaru in 2015, it was a 98 Outback with a blown head gasket. I paid $300 for the car and rebuilt the engine. It was purchased out of circumstance rather than by desire. It was a rusty and rough car and I replaced everything mechanical in it almost and when it met its demise I bought my first Subaru by choice. It’s a 2020 STi and in my considerations prior to buying it were five things that whatever I bought had to meet. 1) four doors 2) needs to be a fun to drive 3) manual transmission 4) hydraulic power steering 5) AWD With the experience I had with the outback I was intimate with how Subaru builds cars so it was kind of a no brainer for a daily driver.
The WRC Group A "homologation specials" ended with the GC era. In 1997, FIA changed to world rally car rules...this is why we saw two wheel drive road cars become 4WD WRC cars like the Ford Focus. Much cheaper for Subaru/STI to make a few race cars that looked like the road car than build thousands of homologation specials with WRC Group A characteristics. Later models are still homologated for WRC, but not to the same extent as before due to regulation changes. There's also Group N. I guess it all depends on how you define homolgated since it's such a broad term meaning to 'approve for a certain market'...technically all cars driving on US roads are homologated for US market.
For us enthusiasts, Group N was always the most interesting program because it directly resulted in high quality aftermarket parts being readily available. Over in the US even though we don’t have Group N rally, we’re all still buying tons of Group N parts to put on everything from our daily drivers to our track cars. I know that’s one of the the things I miss the most about a factory supported homologated rally effort from Subaru.
I bought a VB recently, not my FIRST subaru, but my first WRX, multiple legacy's prior, still have a Spec-B in my driveway waiting for a rebuild. Bought the VB to replace my E90, similar power, Manual Transmission is really my reason, but I always wanted the rally bred machine, which this one isn't. Although, adding an intake and a tune takes the VB to nice power levels. Does it matter that there are no motorsports parts directly available from SoA? No, they never really made the best parts to begin with. Aftermarket still makes parts that make sense.
First Subaru 23 vb, why... turbo, NOT fwd, manual trans, easy to work on, 3k under msrp, after market support, decent power gains for not too much. Fun daily/ project car hobby
Some correction of your info: Last top tier WR car based on turbo awd impreza was 1996 Group A car. From 1997 it was based on 1.5 FWD Impreza Retna Coupe. Last FIA Group N car was GR. But for Japan/Asia rally, the cars are homologated up to todays VB and new BRZ models and there are STI performance parts like bushings, control arms etc.
Thanks for clarifying! After we got off the air I got on the internet and confirmed this as well. Last FIA Group N being the GR fits with my understanding of the sport. Over here in US rally we do things very differently. I did see there’s a VAB homologation but STI’s site doesn’t list the VB…
The huckster is 100% carbon 3D printed grill headlight bezels and bumper and all the bits. it’s a Subaru but 100% custom. Vermont sports car did good on those
@ since I have the 85 rx turbo with 06 sti swap, flat iron customer car in March lol I inquired and talked to vsc personally and asked if I could pay them to reproduce the whole front grill and bumper for my car and they said if I could get 1000 people to order them they would do it. But other than that I’m on my own lol but they told me all about the process and materials, and bonding them together. Pretty amazing the detail the front bumper and grille actually took to replicate. They also sent me the link to a UA-cam video talking about the process.
My answer to your question at the end of the pod cast. It doesn't really matter to me that they don't offer those GrpN parts. Is it sad? Yes. Would normal people buy them instead of their aftermarket alternatives? Probably not unless they're like you or like me. They (Subaru) aren't the company that they were 20 years ago. They've grown up and no longer are about making cars that people can love because they're quirky and have their own style. They're just like every other economy car out there. Made as cheaply as possible by the lowest bidder.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. I think that the FB WRX may have a lot to offer that isn't fully appreciated yet. We are going to start working to sort that out :-) Stay Tuned!
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. It is down to the rear multi-link suspension. It works better for tarmac, but is really lacking sufficient travel for rally use. That is why VSC has always switched their cars back to MacPherson rear suspension.
This was a good one! Why don't people go open source then bolt on whatever turbo and power parts they want? I'm still blowing up and swapping engines in my GD, DIY tuning, 20 years later. Anyone else? To answer the question at 1:11, still listening, I don't think it matters. Car culture has changed so much. I'd rather play with the old stuff anyway. Subaru still sells EJ20 shortblocks, good enough for me!
Glad you enjoyed the topic! As for why people don’t go “open source” I think it’s because enthusiasts expect a lot more from their cars these days. People modding their daily will still want normal features like cruise control and A/C to work. And as a member of a race team that at one point tried to compete with an open source tuned car, I can tell you first hand it’s simply not up to the challenges of Motorsport. Especially when everyone else out there is running sophisticated engine management systems with lots of safety and power features. The goalposts have really moved in terms of what people expect from their “fun” cars.
@@jeremyagost Yeah I get it. I may ultimately spring for Haltech for my GD. Open source can still pass emissions in most states (or work around it!), and it's really cheap. Unfortunately I think people don't go open source any more because they can't follow instructions. Cobb used to be a bandaid for that. I was burning Honda ECU chips in 2005 I'm just going through my Subaru phase 20 years late. :)
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned. Wisefab knuckles will allow you to use a bolt in hub. But they have a lot of roll correction. There have been a couple people that swap to GR knuckles, but there is a bit of work there I believe. You likely need spacers for the axles. Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Not a new gen owner but personally, I dont run any group n or subaru oem + type of parts on my Gc chassis. Everything is aftermarket brands that I have affinities for. Granted I absolutely don't drive in any race classes of any sort it's a backroad ripper and that's what I built it for. So does Subaru not having group N parts matter to me? Nope. Don't think it would if I had a new chassis either.
This is the right answer. The new subaru brand is not about motorsport. All the posters in the dlrs are from 25+yrs ago. The fact the cars can go offroad supports cute marketing spots but its not the intent since GD chassis era.
Bought the 22 wrx limited. First subaru. Always wanted a subaru since I learned to drive manual. My gf who has worked a lot of dealership kind of jobs suggested I try a subaru coming from a 5 speed vw passat me. And her a 2011 6spd maro. I test drove a 19 wrx and decided to trade my 19 auto cts for a 21 sti. Dealership revoked sale and by Oct. 5 22 there was 4 vbs to choose from and I decided to take a gamble. 2 years later and I have no regrets. I thought about tracking my car after stage 1+ tune with larger tmic and perrin aos. Now I am debating keeping as a daily and getting something different for track based on this conversation here.
To me the real disappointment is that Subaru hasnt developed the fa24 for their bespoke cars. Come out with a clean sheet car and you dont even race it? May as well just keep the old VA chassis. Subaru doesn't care about being competitive or developing a modern package, they just want to maintain an image. Nothing under the shell is a VB WRX and its a shame.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Subaru is using the FA24 in their Nurburgring Challenge WRX now, so that is a start. It is a shame that they aren't using it in their Rally cars though. Stay Tuned!
When the new gen motor debuted around 2012, VSC went and built an experimental race engine out of the FB20 design. From what I remember it was a billet block that shared very little with the mainline production model. Since they decided to keep iterating the EJ20 for their racing program, I can only assume that the cost of starting fresh with an entirely new engine platform wasn’t justified by any advantages the new engine had at the time.
I feel called out here, I work as a System Administrator and own a WRX that is way to built for it's own good. LOL.
You are in good company is all 🙂
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
@FlatironsTuning with all the money I have in this narrow body WRX I could own an Audi RS3, well when you could get a RS3 for about 53k used. Love these debates, even if I could have a Audi or Porsche I would still get a 2014 or older Subaru WRX/STI, or 2.5GT/Spec. B before a RS.
First time Subaru owner here. 24 WRX. My criteria was fun to drive manual car with some power. This is my daily. Previous car was an Accord Sport. I needed something more. I missed the pickup of a turbo car.
I considered a Golf GTI. Settled on the WRX because it has more interior room, a lot of reviews said GTI infotainment was wonky. I know some people hate the big screen in the WRX but it doesn't bother me. I feel like the WRX is also a better foundation for mods than the GTI. The fact that it has lower boost from the factory, people are turning it up a little bit and getting good gains. GTI has high boost from factory.
I've always been into Hondas and Mazdas. Also considered Civic Si, just too pedestrian. Type R was still unobtanium with dealer markups and I heard about how stuff the suspension is. Mazda doesn't offer a turbo manuals car anymore.
To confirm your stereotype I am in my 40s but not in IT. I am an engineer though. I may take the car to an autocross or track day and I may not. I have 2 Miatas so I have lots of choices.
Thanks for watching and thanks for detailing how you picked the WRX. Makes a lot of sense!
Miata is always the answer, but I bet you would have run tracking with WRX as well.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
I think Subaru has backed off of supporting their cars, in general. When they're issuing a notice that they're starting to discontinue parts for the 2021 STI already, it doesn't matter how long the cars will last if the parts production will fall almost entirely on the aftermarket. If this continues, I see Toyota gaining a lot of new customers with their growing sportscar/fun car lineup. Toyota announced they're working on the next Celica, theres bubblings of a new MR2, the S-FR, the Supra, and the Corolla GR.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Definitely agree about what Toyota is doing. I half wonder if part of the reason Toyota is coming back into the enthusiast market so strongly is that they realize how much of that market they lost when they didn't have any "fun" cars for about 15 years....
A lesson that Subaru will hopefully learn without doing the same.
Stay Tuned!
i hate the world of social media(although all the information flatirons and iag has provided via podcast has been a game changer). i wish i was driving during the prime of forums. I didn't get my 04 wrx till 2017 and i spend hours every day reading nasioc and trying to continue topics.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Glad to hear that our channel has been helpful.
Stay Tuned!
I got an 04 too. Motoiq has good info on subarus as well as everything else
Had a '17 brz that treated me well and I enjoyed more than my s14 and z. When I had my 3rd kid I just couldn't justify it anymore. I needed 4 doors, a warranty, and didn't want to break the bank. '24 VB checked a lot of boxes for me, hoping to autox or rallyx soon.
Great to hear. We are planning to do the same with our VB, and I think that the chassis is well suited to those, especially RallyX.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
Nice! You finally did one I've talked about lol😂
Ha! This is where it started but went in a couple other directions that I wasn't expecting 🙂
Thanks Dewey!
We’re in the drift!
@@FlatironsTuning love you guys. Keep killing it.
It does matter that you can’t buy the car (or a version of the car) that you’re seeing on the tv anymore. Whether it’s racing or “social media cars” you can’t really buy a production version of “that car” anymore and no more group n parts etc. is an extension of that.
Yes, that’s the change that we all feel and that we were reacting to. That Subaru motorsports involvement is no longer about producing a car and an ecosystem that people can go and race with. But rather generating social media buzz so they can sell their CVT-equipped mall crawlers. And maybe a WRX here or there.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment.
Stay Tuned!
Fyi. Lgt guy here. 2006-9 Spec b aluminum arm’s are for sale from super pro. Get yours a Flat Iron tuning’s. Imho it a boxer engine it’s a Subaru 😂
Thanks for watching. Stay Tuned!
I just realized that you were talking about 2005-9 lgt rear arms . Those are discontinued
I purchased my first Subaru in 2015, it was a 98 Outback with a blown head gasket. I paid $300 for the car and rebuilt the engine. It was purchased out of circumstance rather than by desire. It was a rusty and rough car and I replaced everything mechanical in it almost and when it met its demise I bought my first Subaru by choice.
It’s a 2020 STi and in my considerations prior to buying it were five things that whatever I bought had to meet.
1) four doors
2) needs to be a fun to drive
3) manual transmission
4) hydraulic power steering
5) AWD
With the experience I had with the outback I was intimate with how Subaru builds cars so it was kind of a no brainer for a daily driver.
That is great to hear. Any year STI is going to be a fun car for sure.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
The WRC Group A "homologation specials" ended with the GC era. In 1997, FIA changed to world rally car rules...this is why we saw two wheel drive road cars become 4WD WRC cars like the Ford Focus. Much cheaper for Subaru/STI to make a few race cars that looked like the road car than build thousands of homologation specials with WRC Group A characteristics. Later models are still homologated for WRC, but not to the same extent as before due to regulation changes. There's also Group N. I guess it all depends on how you define homolgated since it's such a broad term meaning to 'approve for a certain market'...technically all cars driving on US roads are homologated for US market.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment.
Stay Tuned!
For us enthusiasts, Group N was always the most interesting program because it directly resulted in high quality aftermarket parts being readily available. Over in the US even though we don’t have Group N rally, we’re all still buying tons of Group N parts to put on everything from our daily drivers to our track cars. I know that’s one of the the things I miss the most about a factory supported homologated rally effort from Subaru.
@@jeremyagost Agree, Group N is the most relatable for us enthusiasts. When it came to replacing worn bushings on my GD, I went with Group N parts.
I bought a VB recently, not my FIRST subaru, but my first WRX, multiple legacy's prior, still have a Spec-B in my driveway waiting for a rebuild. Bought the VB to replace my E90, similar power, Manual Transmission is really my reason, but I always wanted the rally bred machine, which this one isn't. Although, adding an intake and a tune takes the VB to nice power levels.
Does it matter that there are no motorsports parts directly available from SoA? No, they never really made the best parts to begin with. Aftermarket still makes parts that make sense.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Hope you are enjoying the VB :-)
Stay Tuned!
First Subaru 23 vb, why... turbo, NOT fwd, manual trans, easy to work on, 3k under msrp, after market support, decent power gains for not too much. Fun daily/ project car hobby
That is great to hear, and glad that you are enjoying your VB!
Stay Tuned!
Some correction of your info:
Last top tier WR car based on turbo awd impreza was 1996 Group A car. From 1997 it was based on 1.5 FWD Impreza Retna Coupe.
Last FIA Group N car was GR.
But for Japan/Asia rally, the cars are homologated up to todays VB and new BRZ models and there are STI performance parts like bushings, control arms etc.
Thanks for watching and thanks for that info!
Stay Tuned!
Thanks for clarifying! After we got off the air I got on the internet and confirmed this as well. Last FIA Group N being the GR fits with my understanding of the sport. Over here in US rally we do things very differently. I did see there’s a VAB homologation but STI’s site doesn’t list the VB…
The huckster is 100% carbon 3D printed grill headlight bezels and bumper and all the bits. it’s a Subaru but 100% custom. Vermont sports car did good on those
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment.
Stay Tuned!
@ since I have the 85 rx turbo with 06 sti swap, flat iron customer car in March lol I inquired and talked to vsc personally and asked if I could pay them to reproduce the whole front grill and bumper for my car and they said if I could get 1000 people to order them they would do it. But other than that I’m on my own lol but they told me all about the process and materials, and bonding them together. Pretty amazing the detail the front bumper and grille actually took to replicate. They also sent me the link to a UA-cam video talking about the process.
My answer to your question at the end of the pod cast. It doesn't really matter to me that they don't offer those GrpN parts. Is it sad? Yes. Would normal people buy them instead of their aftermarket alternatives? Probably not unless they're like you or like me. They (Subaru) aren't the company that they were 20 years ago. They've grown up and no longer are about making cars that people can love because they're quirky and have their own style. They're just like every other economy car out there. Made as cheaply as possible by the lowest bidder.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. I think that the FB WRX may have a lot to offer that isn't fully appreciated yet. We are going to start working to sort that out :-)
Stay Tuned!
How are the Gr’s worse for rally then a gd?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question.
It is down to the rear multi-link suspension.
It works better for tarmac, but is really lacking sufficient travel for rally use. That is why VSC has always switched their cars back to MacPherson rear suspension.
This was a good one!
Why don't people go open source then bolt on whatever turbo and power parts they want? I'm still blowing up and swapping engines in my GD, DIY tuning, 20 years later. Anyone else?
To answer the question at 1:11, still listening, I don't think it matters. Car culture has changed so much. I'd rather play with the old stuff anyway. Subaru still sells EJ20 shortblocks, good enough for me!
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comments! GD and GC Subarus are great for sure :-) Maybe still underappreciated really.
Stay Tuned!
I thought they stopped making EJ’s after 2021.
Glad you enjoyed the topic! As for why people don’t go “open source” I think it’s because enthusiasts expect a lot more from their cars these days. People modding their daily will still want normal features like cruise control and A/C to work. And as a member of a race team that at one point tried to compete with an open source tuned car, I can tell you first hand it’s simply not up to the challenges of Motorsport. Especially when everyone else out there is running sophisticated engine management systems with lots of safety and power features. The goalposts have really moved in terms of what people expect from their “fun” cars.
@@suzumr2754 They stopped putting them in cars, but you can still mail order replacement engines for your old junk when it blows up! :)
@@jeremyagost Yeah I get it. I may ultimately spring for Haltech for my GD. Open source can still pass emissions in most states (or work around it!), and it's really cheap. Unfortunately I think people don't go open source any more because they can't follow instructions. Cobb used to be a bandaid for that. I was burning Honda ECU chips in 2005 I'm just going through my Subaru phase 20 years late. :)
Speaking of GD parts - is there any interchangeability and better yet one with a bolt in hub that would work?
like a drop knuckle that allows you to run 5x114 wheel bearing?
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned.
Wisefab knuckles will allow you to use a bolt in hub. But they have a lot of roll correction. There have been a couple people that swap to GR knuckles, but there is a bit of work there I believe. You likely need spacers for the axles.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Not a new gen owner but personally, I dont run any group n or subaru oem + type of parts on my Gc chassis. Everything is aftermarket brands that I have affinities for. Granted I absolutely don't drive in any race classes of any sort it's a backroad ripper and that's what I built it for. So does Subaru not having group N parts matter to me? Nope. Don't think it would if I had a new chassis either.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment.
Stay Tuned!
Just means someone will make an aftermarket steel lower control arm
Yep, there are a couple options, we just need to find the best one.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
My wife owned Subaru dealership and passed away in 23. I own an 07 sti limited and 09 sti hatch limited both white. Would not buy new Subaru
This is the right answer. The new subaru brand is not about motorsport. All the posters in the dlrs are from 25+yrs ago. The fact the cars can go offroad supports cute marketing spots but its not the intent since GD chassis era.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment.
Stay Tuned!
Bought the 22 wrx limited. First subaru. Always wanted a subaru since I learned to drive manual. My gf who has worked a lot of dealership kind of jobs suggested I try a subaru coming from a 5 speed vw passat me. And her a 2011 6spd maro. I test drove a 19 wrx and decided to trade my 19 auto cts for a 21 sti. Dealership revoked sale and by Oct. 5 22 there was 4 vbs to choose from and I decided to take a gamble. 2 years later and I have no regrets. I thought about tracking my car after stage 1+ tune with larger tmic and perrin aos. Now I am debating keeping as a daily and getting something different for track based on this conversation here.
@@mnstr4lfe Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Glad you are enjoying the VB!
Stay Tuned!
To me the real disappointment is that Subaru hasnt developed the fa24 for their bespoke cars. Come out with a clean sheet car and you dont even race it? May as well just keep the old VA chassis. Subaru doesn't care about being competitive or developing a modern package, they just want to maintain an image. Nothing under the shell is a VB WRX and its a shame.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. Subaru is using the FA24 in their Nurburgring Challenge WRX now, so that is a start. It is a shame that they aren't using it in their Rally cars though.
Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuningI also hope they do! Their current 2 litre is so bulletproof and also.. regulation meeting for the rally, that it is likely why.
When the new gen motor debuted around 2012, VSC went and built an experimental race engine out of the FB20 design. From what I remember it was a billet block that shared very little with the mainline production model. Since they decided to keep iterating the EJ20 for their racing program, I can only assume that the cost of starting fresh with an entirely new engine platform wasn’t justified by any advantages the new engine had at the time.
I've got the need for speed.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
When subaru went from fuji heavy metal industries to subaru corp. It went to 💩