Liston didn't take a dive. That kidnapping story is tinfoil hat nonsense. He was an alcoholic and he got drunk the night before the fight and went in the ring with a hangover and then the concussion from that right cross to the chin added to the effects of the booze.
NOBODY knew the day Liston was born or died. I think he definitely took a dive in the second fight. I've seen the punch hundreds of times. Hardly Marciano- Walcott.
Sonny Liston was everything I wanted in a heavyweight champion of the world. He had a great name. He had a great intimidating stare. He had been in prison where he learned to box. He did not talk a lot. He had a devastating knock out punch. No one new how old he was.
liston took knockout dive,but that punch was so fast and had an element of surprise in it that liston went to the ground,well in a shameful way because ALI was still getting started and wanted to fight so bad he said"Get up you bum,they are not going to believe this,get up and fight!!",ALI was so genuine he knew that was not a knockout.
@@James_Edward59you want Ali to end up dead by telling da truth you really think boxing is real yes they hit each other for frfr let me tell something anything involving big money is fake
Watch Liston against one of the hardest punchers of all time, Cleveland Williams. He takes straight on shots from Big Cat, and walks right thru them, but Ali, not exactly a slugger, KO's him with one arm punch while leaning backward? Only a fool or someone who knows nothing about Liston believes in The Phantom Punch
gary m Liston was as athletic as Ali ever thought of being. He had the punch to put anybody to sleep, even your overinflated hero. He had more than a chance ... he should have beaten Ali to kingdom come. He was easily the most talented fighter Ali ever fought.
When Sonny Liston's father's mule died he put the plow straps around his son, and Sonny Liston pulled that plow. He became the mule. He was the youngest of eighteen children. So Sonny Liston knew what it was like to go hungry. All true. Sonny Liston is the toughest heavyweight champion that ever lived.
Yeah, he didn't get bruised when he hit the canvas, he's very strong, he only got bruised in his face when he lost to ali and they had to stop the fight 😮very strong fighter
He's a journalist. I'm not a boxer, but I've been in about 60-70 fights in my life, thankfully most of them before I turned 40 (I'm 54 now). For whatever reason. Doesn't matter. Not necessarily proud I was the kind of guy who got in a lot of fights, but proud I didn't back down at least. Anyway, I can think of numerous instances where I prevailed as a result of a weak punch. One in particular, outside Flanders House in Niantic, CT, 1986, was fighting a very tough guy, was out of bullets (figuratively speaking) and out of gas, about to lose, and probably about to be hurt bad. I was retreating, and somehow tripped on a big tree root, and stumbled backward. He saw this and came hard to finish me off, and out of sheer desperation, stumbling backward, I let go everything I could muster in some kind of a limpwristed backhand, no power no weight behind it. Miraculously, it caught him on the chin and snapped his head back. I was 165-170, he was prob 185. I guess my Guardian Angel put HIS weight behind it. The guy stumbled backward and landed on his back. You don't need to know the rest. The gloves make a big difference, for sure, make it less likely, but it's foolish to dismiss the possibility that Clay caught Liston just right with a seemingly weak punch. A pro boxer hits the heavy bag a couple of hours a day, sometimes hard, sometimes soft just to warm up, sometimes to work on footwork and combinations, sometimes to develop power, sometimes all of the above. A pro has enough power to knock a man down, that people don't appreciate, even if he's skinny. Watch Mark Breland, for example. I know Liston was a bad guy, but I also know that he might have just got knocked down. If you're dead sure he took a dive because you watched the fight and your vast knowledge told you it was so, it just means you're a sports journalist and never had a fight in your life.
Dude took a dive... Even my blind grand father can see that. lmao I don't care how many fight you had, it's pretty obvious that he took that dive, a "boxer" should know better, dude is clearly not out or dizzy.
Liston got rocked by Ali’s counter right over listons running jab. Liston basically ran right into it. POW 💥 Liston though, f this, I’m not going to be baldly beaten, exhausted and humiliated again worse than the first match up. No one blames Liston for not wanting to continue after being rocked early in the first round.
Maybe he was, but you can see in the first fight the only round Liston really got near Ali was the round where Ali couldn't see. Ali was quite simply a different class to Liston.
The man was a beast before Tyson , grew up reading ring magazine in the late fifties and sixties , they just hinted but never delved into the dark side of things .
Yep...Tyson vs. Spinks was a dive too! I was pissed. My friends and I drove down to Macon from ATL to watch the fight at the Macon Coloseum. Paid 30 bucks each to watch Spinks puss out and dive after taking one strong punch to the gut!
Both of the Liston- Clay fights were fixed. the mob owned Liston, and he was unbeatable, and would have been the heavyweight champ for at least 3-4 more years. Clay was box office and would create interest and make everyone involved a lot of money. I got this information directly from a "Vegas insider" who I knew for almost 20 years before he told me. He waited until everyone involved was dead. Liston's "mysterious death" was a murder. He was broke and threatened to expose the fixed fights, the mob had a hooker give him a "hot shot" of heroin. Liston was only afraid of one thing in his life and that was a needle. That is the real story of the fixed fights, and Liston's murder. Many people won't want to believe it, but I have no motive in revealing the true story.
@@robertconley5905 Laurie used to come into the hilton sports book to bet the horses. He knew ash resnick of the thunderbird where liston trained. He told major riddle who owned the dunes not to bet the second fight that to stay out of it. Laurie Said Frankie cargo and blankie Palermo were controlling liston . Laurie managed a Texas fighter sponsored by the king ranch in Texas.
I think he took a dive but I believe if he did Ali wasn't in on it. I think sonny probably had someone put a large sum on a first round ko. He was in with the mob so anything is Possible. Such an underrated fighter and I'm glad he is starting to get more and more respect.
When Ali fougth Holmes and Berbick, it was *not* so much his age, but, he was already starting to show the signs of parkinsons (undiagnosed). 1978, the Mayo Clinic was running a battery of tests on Ali, as there was something wrong with him, but, it was not identified. So the author here using Holmes and Berbick as examples of what age can do is not a good example.
Nth Degree hey N, I don’t understand why the diagnosis became “Parkinson’s disease, although I assume it was felt the true diagnosis would somehow taint Ali. My brother is afflicted with the disease and modern medicine had minimum success in dealing with it. Ali may very well have suffered from the disease, but the precursor was too many blows suffered through his long career just as many have in the past. The writers have always turned a blind eye to that which benefits no one...
Nth Degree I agree with you here mate. For this super sleuth investigative journalist not to know that Ali had Parkinson's when he fought Holmes, is frankly staggering.
No one questioned Liston's age when he was destroying heavyweights in the late 50's and early 60's , he loses to one of the best boxers of all time and suddenly he is ten years older. The second fight was simple if you watch Liston's head snap down when he is hit you can't fake that ,there was a punch to the temple. Even if you don't think there was a punch there should never have been a count started until Ali went to a neutral corner which he didn't . Nat Fleisure editor of the ring magazine was the time keeper and told Wallcott that he had counted Liston out,Wallcott was totally lost and inept and should have disregarded what Fleisure had told him and should have aloud the fight to continue.More than likely the ultimate results would have been the same but the bout would have gone down in history as another LONG COUNT.
The sports media & fans hated him during the 50s-60s and because he was a convict who had been in & out of prison several times as well as an enforcer for the Mob, he had very few fans. Did Ali hit him hard enough to knock him out? Absolutely not! He was hit 10 times harder by Cleveland Williams and he never went down. Long Count?? Nah, maybe a poor acting job by Sonny, that fooled nobody. Both fights were a joke and they tarnished Liston big time. He's looked at as a bum that took a dive.
Ali can't punch?!?! Well I then guess Foreman knocked himself out, and the swollen face of Joe Frazier was from an allergic reaction. Ali can't punch, yes you're right.
@@teller121 that is only because Ali rarely threw a punch with malicious intent! But if this man had to get his hands doctored because of how hard he was hitting his opponents (he hit so hard he was bruising his knuckles with fuckin gloves on! ) please don't let a boxing connoisseur hear you say that lol...... Ali was known to stop his own fights because his opponents were literally out on their feet and he didn't want to deliver that brain shattering power blow (which he was more than capable of throwing! ) that the typical brutal slugger had no problem delivering! This was a prime time Ali still figuring his power and everything else out.......but that punch was real..... if sonny could've recovered from it is the only real question...... but all these jaw jackers claiming that Ali had no punching power are the same ones that would get floored by this same mans stinging LEFT jab while floating in mid air without either of his feet being flat on the earth!
It took Ali awhile to really develop a fierce and effective knockout punch. In his early days he won mostly by wearing his man down rather than nailing him with a killer bomb. Even in his prime, he'd win with a furious flurry rather than what you might call a haymaker.
Prior to the fight, The Ring magazine ran an article questioning Liston's true age. The article mentioned that Liston had a 19-year-old daughter, calling his alleged age of 32 into serious question.
While the motive for Liston's "dive" may be up for debate, what's not up for debate is the power of Ali's punch. First of all, it was in the first 90 seconds of the fight. Liston was not tired or hurt. Second of all, the punch did land but it was a counter punch, meaning there was considerably less power and leverage behind it. Lastly, there was mass confusion in the ring that nobody seems to understand. Jersey Joe Walcott was the referee and his job is to get the fighter scoring the knockdown to a neutral corner and begin counting. Ali did not cooperate and so therefore Walcott never even started counting! The reason the fight was stopped at 2:12 was because the timekeeper signaled to Jersey Joe that HE had counted him out! In my opinion, I think Liston took a dive and most likely it had to do with the Mafia but the reason he got up was because he was never counted out! We may never know the real story but we do know Sonny Liston most definitely had Mafia ties. Where I differ with this bozo on his book is he seems to think Liston was a more talented fighter! Whatever dude! Ali was far younger and had superior boxing skills. Doubtful the fight would have lasted more than 5 rounds. I
The Sonny Liston that was unbeatable from 1958-1963 was not the same fighter that humiliated himself twice against Ali. Foreman trained and sparred with Liston during the late 60s said that Liston was stronger and a much better boxer than himself. I believe that Liston in his prime would've beaten everyone that Ali beat including Foreman, Frazier, Norton and Lyle.
I don't think it was fixed. The Muslims had no reason to need to do that, as they had to know that Ali could handle Liston. As far as the Mob, why would they want Ali to win? They couldn't control him, as the Muslims told the Mob that they were more than willing to go to war with the Mob if they bothered Ali. What I think happened is that Liston quit, just like Duran did against Leonard. For all of his toughness, Sonny was fairly fragile emotionally. I think when he went down, he just thought, "who needs this", and decided to quit.
The mob wanted Ali to win because most of the money was on Liston to win even though he lost the first one the popular belief was that it was a fluke and people believed Liston would easily win the rematch, it all comes down to money and manipulating the odds
You hit it right on the head. EXACTLY! Thank you. This is such bull shit! And to Mighty Joe: No, the mob did NOT want Ali to win, because even if they would have made money on him in this fight, it would be the LAST heavyweight fight that they would've made money on for as long as Ali was champion, because they didn't control him. As a long term strategy, Ali winning would have been a MAJOR DISASTER for the mob. It would take them out of the heavyweight fight fixing game COMPLETELY!
mrstep2me They didn't know Ali could handle Liston at all (and straight up, he couldn't), but he was a better meal ticket. Liston was hated and Ali was the gate. So they chose the punk over the pro ... plain and simple.
Mike Pinc The Mob didn't control Ali. The Muslims made it clear that they were more than willing to start murdering mobsters if they bothered Ali. The Mob had too many illegal moneymakers in the ghetto to get into a black/Italian war that would end up making the ghetto off limits to them.
mrstep2me That's about as speculative as you can get, and doesn't explain how a powderpuff punch could put down a guy who took some shots by the hard-hitting Cleve Williams before Williams was felled by age and a deputy's bullet.
Step N Fetchit was taught the anchor punch by Jack Johnson. Zanuck was a huge boxing foxing fab and gave Johnson work as an extra. He was in Ali’s camp during the second Liston Ali fight in fact he sued Ali for not paying him.
Keith Jones Remember round 5 in their first fight? Liston had Clay in big trouble...but he couldn't put him away??? Liston knew all the tricks on how to cut the ring on a faster moving opponent....so why didn't he? Clay wanted Angelo Dundee to "cut the gloves" before that round started because he couldn't see, Sonny had a golden opportunity to catch him and put him away, but he didn't....he let Clay off the hook! I believe that fight was scored pretty close, if not even, until he quit on his stool before the 7th round.
Im still wondering about the first one too. The second one was clearly rigged. Even Ali got nervous, and yelled :" Stand up ! Nobody is gonna believe this". Knowing what i know now, i think Liston on purpose made it look bad, as a way of saying F you, to the men that got to him. Ali was an upcomming fighter with a clean solid record and part of the nation of islam, a spokesman like Ali was something Elijah muhammad could use. They fooled Tyson the same way.
@@melodie-allynbenezra8956 indeed (see my comment before this) maybe Liston was supposed to take a dive that round, but his pride wouldnt let him, so he stopped at that round, and saud he had a shoulder injury.
@@kingjinder5421 and @SimplyLimbo This still amuses me. My father posted this a while ago, but forgot to switch accounts. I'm glad you still find my father's post interesting enough to respond to, after all this time.
Watch Liston catch himself and start to crawl before he hits the canvas. When you're knocked out you have no control over the legs so how do you catch and crawl?
He was only knocked out in the sense that he didn't meet the 10 count. When you get hit on the point of the chin/side of face and it spins your neck like that the spinal cord is temporarily pinched making you lose control of your legs and body but only for like a single second. Also the quick spin and force of the punch can make the fluid in your ears spin and that makes you feel like things are spinning. This leads (often in boxing not just in this knock down) to guys being semi conscious and trying to continue, but not quite sure which way to stand or what they are looking at, the mat the ceiling, its all spinning, hard to tell which way is up. Watch Amir Khan vs Danny Garcia and you will see an extended example of this. Once the inner ear is affected sometimes the fighter can never regain his physical composure even if he is mentally there and willing to continue. This fight could have been fixed but Liston catching himself on the fall is a natural reaction to falling that all humans develop. Put your hands out so you don't hit your face, even small children do it instinctively.
Half witted Ali worshipper Benballs doesn't know that THERE WAS NO TEN COUNT. "Referee" Jersey Joe Walcott never counted. NOT a single count. And Ali never went to a neutral corner--so by the rules of boxing the count is still at zero in that fight.
marcxopoco You are clearly trolling everyone on this page. everything I said was just stating facts. Not nut hugging Ali. Like I said Ali didn't need a "phantom punch" to win this one. He ALREADY beat Sonny and he did it easy. Call me whatever you want but this is a thread for conspiracy theorists, in the face of a lot of evidence that Ali had no reason to fix the fight if you want to believe he did feel free. I didn't say it wasn't fixed, I just said I see no reason why he would need to do that at all. When there is no smoke there is usually no fire. One last thing monkey brains, Ali didn't need Liston to prove his greatness. It was proven out in his other fights. Of all his "Big" fights, the two with Liston helped to make him famous but were not even in the top 3 defining fights of his career. So fake or not it's irrelevant to how good he was. And I'm atheist thank you, no religion for me. I know he is not the best boxer ever, just one of the very best HW ever and the best showman in boxing/sport period. Think what you want, say what you want, I won't respond, I see you trollin and hatin.
Liston came into fight wanting to win. He was not confident. Ali absolutely dominated Liston in the first fight. He wasn’t just faster but bigger at 6’3” to Listons 6’1”. Ali was young and very motivated. He WAS confident going into second fight. Liston had no answers for Ali. When fight 2 started Liston was unable to do anything with Ali, Ali was moving and hitting Sonny without any response from Liston. Liston was not seeing Ali punches. He ran into an Ali short right hand lead. It caught Sonny flush. He didn’t see it coming at all. The punch snapped Sonny ‘s head to the right and he fell. He wasn’t hurt but he was knocked down. He really didn’t want to fight on. He decided to stay down but changed his mind and actually beat the count. Ref Jersey Joe Walcott did everything right except overruling the idiot who rang the bell. Joe didn’t immediately start count (correctly) because Ali didn’t go to neutral corner. He correctly directed Ali to go to corner and then started the count. Liston got up to a knee, stumbled and made it back up by count 9. The fight resumed and Ali landed a couple good shots and the dumb presumptuous journalist (from Ring magazine?) rang the bell. Jersey Joe went a long with who ever was in charge of the timekeeping. Whoever that was felt that Liston got way over 10 seconds to get up which was true but correctly so as Ali did not go to neutral corner. Anyway, Liston didn’t seem to mind. He knew what the ending was going to be. He had no answers for Ali. He didn’t want to be in there. I’ve seen the “phantom punch” in slow motion a hundred times. It landed flush on Liston’s left temple and was completely unseen by Sonny. He wasn’t hurt. He was off balance and got hit in the temple by a short right hand he never saw. He went down. He could have got up but really didn’t want to endure a long night being humiliated by Ali. He tried to stay down but the count took so long he made it up. He was happy they stopped it. Sort of like the last Leonard-Duran fight. Duran knew he was being humiliated and just quit. Duran and Liston were two great, great fighters. Both were bullies and very prideful. They were in against fighters they didn’t like and had no answer for. Neither fight was fixed. Liston won his next 9 fights by KO before getting knocked out by Leotis Martin in a fight he dominated until the last round.
Liston had injured his shoulder in training camp and also had a torn meniscus that prevented him from doing roadwork so his conditioning was horrible when he fought Ali in their first fight. Sonny had no idea how good Ali was and unlike Liston Ali trained very hard for their Title fight and studied film footage of Sonny. Most of Ali's punches that landed on Sonny before the 6th round were weak punches that didn't faze Sonny. By the 6th round, Sonny had torn the tendon in his shoulder off the bone and it bled down into his bicep making it very difficult to raise his arm to protect himself. Ali did a lot of damage in the 6th round and when the 6th round ended the fight was scored as a tie. Sonny's handlers threw in the towel and Ali got the TKO. The 2nd fight was a joke and whether it was a flash knock down or simply Sonny doing a poor job of acting like he was knocked out, it was a dive never the less.
I am an ALi fan, but most of all I am a boxing fan! I appreciate Sonny as a great heavy weight champ! He was the ultimate destroyer before Tyson. I believe Sonny dived! When you got the Mob on your back you do what they tell you, and Sonny could have been hit by a freight train, if it did knock him down he was coming right back up! Period! Nothing against Ali, but he did say during the fight, "Did he dive?", and you can hear it on the recording. As a former boxer myself, I can tell you a fighter knows when he has landed a 'solid' punch!
Ali didn't have the power to KO fighters with only 1 punch. When he knocked out Foreman he threw combinations and it took almost 17 punches to drop George.
Second fight was no fix either. I watched it in slow-motion and saw Ali flicked Liston's lazy left jab upwards and followed in the same motion that caught Liston coming in flush on the temple. Even the muscles on his back and his entire upper body shudder when he was hit. It was a very solid blow. No fix can make your flesh react like that. This story is a farce!
Thank you! Clearly all these "professionals" don't know anything about pressure points! Furthermore! You've got to show a motive! And if you think that the noi had the power to kidnap a heavy weight champions family and hold them fir ransom to throw a fight against Ali (to which he already lost a fight! ) then they are as dumb as they look!!!!!!!
Yeah right believe what you want I will give you 6 inches from my face with your goves to not knock me down but to knock me out yeah dream on. That close of a punch holds no power. You don't even have the concept of boxing. Boxers are told too step into the punch to prevent the wind mill power of the punch
I agree he got nailed by Ali's right, and as he went down, Ali tried to punch him with his left but didn't connect. It's not a "phantom punch" that got him, it was the right. Ali just wasn't liked back then, the crowd was booing him, so they didn't want to believe Liston went down.
I'm sure he saw Ali's punch very clearly and decided to take a dive with it. What he didn't count on was how stupid it looked to everyone. I always knew there was a punch, but I realized it couldn't have harmed a fly.
Your logic doesn't hold because Liston was more unpopular generally than Ali. Ali yelled at Liston because he KNEW nobody would believe it, and even ALI himself didn't. Liston set it up that way, as he would have never ever led with a jab from that distance.
Christopher, We agree, because when the eyes do Not see the punch coming, then the brain cannot relay to the legs, to be prepared. How many times have we seen a boxer take a really hard punch and ask, how is he still standing ? Sure he has a strong jaw, but he also saw the punch coming..... anyone who has laced on the leather...... knows !
I think the Lewiston fight was a bona fide knockout. Why? Archie Moore, who was ringside, said it was definitely a knockout. He explained the punch. Archie Moore holds the record by far for the most professional knockouts. He would know.
Sonny was a bully, and once you stand up to a bully, they are never really the same again. Mentally in that first round, Sonny knew that he couldn't beat Ali, and didn't want to go through that humiliation of getting beat down round by round and possibly getting knocked out in the later rounds again like in the first fight and was looking for an opportunity to get out of the fight.
This GUY is Crazy!!! 2nd best of all time???? Ever heard of Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, George Foreman??????? The reason ALI is NOT Judged on the Fights with Holmes and Berbick is because ALI took his Beating like a MAN!!!
MICHAEL N I don't know about second best (and he said at worst, so that's not even a given). But Ali's not first either. At least Louis, Marciano and probably Dempsey and Jack Johnson were better. Holmes laid off on Ali or would have taken him out with a ten-count, which is really what Ali deserved. Too bad Holmes felt sorry for him.
You cant be serious with a comment like that! Ali was Holmes' Idol NOT to mention gave Larry his Big Break into Boxing. Ali at that time was trying to make a few more Bucks before he retired and Reach for that magic just one more time. I was NOT an ALI fan growing up as a Kid. Joe Frazier & Ken Norton were Guy's I liked. But how nice would it have been if ALI was able to talk normal all these years after Boxing. You have to say ALI is One of the Greatest For sure.... But Sonny Liston??? Come on, lets not try and make Sonny out to be that good! he was NOT!! Big, Strong and Mean in the ring..But a Quitter and that's a fact!! Mike Pinc
MICHAEL N You seem to forget that Ali himself wanted to quit between rounds over that foreign substance issue (Dundee never thought it was intentional and also minimalized it) and Angie threw him off the stool. Without that, he'd have stayed on the stool himself and not answered the bell. So Ali is as big a quitter as Liston could've ever been. And you don't know what Liston was threatened with and he actually did have a bum shoulder. The way Ali tried to humiliate his opponents in and out of the ring throughout his career, he deserves every problem he now has, and in spades. A person would have to be a fool to even admire this misfit.His punk, braggadocio attitude pervades boxing and even other sports to this very day. He was classless then, is classness now, and again, deserves his current problems.
Ok whatever Dude...Ali was a Tough son of a Bitch to be Honest! He did get up off that stool and Kick the shit out of Liston, Twice! The first time Nobody thought he had a Chance! And he did answer the bell for the last round in The Thrilla in Manila! Come on Man Ali was brash and sometime disrespectful but he was still Great! And to say that he deserves his condition is just Wrong! I will not go on any further but ALI being sick and You saying he deserves it is NOT how a TRUE Boxing fan would talk. Good day! Mike Pinc
MICHAEL N Ali wanted to quit in the first Liston fight and it was Dundee who pushed him off the stool. That's a fact. Live with it! He kicked the hell out of Liston neither time, as the second was an obvious dive and the first was too when you properly observe the film. Sonny let him escape in a manner that is not believable. As far as Liston's face being marked, that happens often in boxing, even to those who win. That is a barometer only of ignorance and nothing else. There are a lot of fighters who were and are tough, though Ali's toughness is overrated. That's not enough. A "true" boxing fan would emphasize class over anything else and admit Ali to be the a**hole he was and is now. You people may wish to make excuses for this douchebag but I don't. I never have and I never will. I could go on but I'll stop here.
funny interview. Just take a look at ( muhammad ali phantom punch slow motion- you tube.) Look at ali's face when he punch look at liston's head look at how liston trying not to fall That was right punch,right time,right place ,see that slow motion and judge
You are right...a legitimate flash knockdown but Sonny was going to throw the fight and he used the knockdown to fulfill the promise to throw the fight. Unfortunately it wasn't a hard enough punch that anyone believed his rolling around on the canvas like he was out of it.
It's 100% believable the punch could knock Liston out/off his equilibrium.. it doesn't take much to certain areas of the head to nearly incapacitate a fighter.. what's unbelievable to me is Liston's reaction. I've seen fighters rocked 100 times from head shots, and the only moment where liston sells it is when he first tries to get up and his ankle quivers.. otherwise he rolls around and flops out his arms like he's on broadway.. and then when he gets up after the count he's clearly back in the fight.
The shoe motion video shows that Ali rocked him while Liston was coming in, it was a legit punch, Liston got back up and started fighting Ali again but the ref stopped it.
We have video that shows Liston and his wife getting off the plane in Lewiston two weeks before the fight as he began training in Poland Springs. And, we have video of Liston and his wife getting into the car on the night of the fight to go to St. Dominic's arena.
Had Sonny trained properly he may have stayed undefeated. He drank, hung out in bars, had a very negative cloud around him for years . . . bad people owned him and treated him like a mule of field hand. That causes him to come to the fight at 80% when he needed to be at 100% against Ali.
Spoken like a white baby boomer, all of whom were overly impressed by Liston at a young, impressionable age in their lives. In truth, Liston was a coward, a quitter, but worst of all, a true criminal. White boomers get weepy-eyed over a genuinely bad person. Liston didn't like getting hit. Marciano would have put him to sleep quickly. So would Frazier, Foreman, and Holmes. Ali did us all a favor by offing him. @@ronschuster4377
Tell Ali he was unbeatable. Ali had no respect for him. Liston was a common criminal who had no stamina and didn't like getting hit. Jack Johnson said he threw the fight to Willard, too. Same song, multiple verses. Liston was a paper tiger, totally outclassed by Clay.
ALI didn't need to KO sonny. he was perfectly willing to lay down or quit on his stool .I would call him a choke artist ,but I think gangsters got to him, and he continued to rack up wins in relative obscurity after this episode .w/ a very respectable record .he went 15-1 w/ 12 KO's after this .50-4 overall .39 career KO's as far as ALI's power ,watch the Foley fight, and the 11th round of the Lyle fight, to cite two.
i have always questioned the actions of Jersey Joe Walcott (referee) during the fight. i find Walcotts actions very strange indeed, and if the fix was in, then Walcott was part of it.
Walcott was an inexperienced referee, who shouldn't have been thrown into a title fight. Liston falling and rolling over surprised him, Ali, and the crowd as well.
@@mdmcdd1117 -- yeah but who was he looking at for instructions or whatever, before letting it continue. Then jumped in right after to stop it? It makes a lot of sense that Walcott was handpicked for a reason. Strange stuff.
This is old but he was probably the ref because there were multiple death threats on Ali's and Listons lives. There were black muslins there, Malcolm X followers there, shady policemen and not to count in the countless other shady individuals at just any big boxing match.
The knockout was a clean temple shot. Ali sought that punch ever after and used it to knock out George Forman in 1976. He hit Forman in the temple and rocked him and recognized this was it, then took a step back and delivered combo on an already rummy man and the rest is history. Also, Folly. Ali floored Foley twice with that same punch. The "phantom punch" was somewhat lucky in that it was a rare time he would actually connect with it, though he often tried for it. Liston was a dirty fighter. Ali whooped him cleanly and DECISIVELY! He earned his crown and defended it well.
Ali beat him clean the first fight. Why would sonny try to temporary blind him to win while knowingly taking a dive? The 2nd fight... I love Ali but I think liston threw because when he did get up he didn't look hurt. Liston worked for the Mafia. Maybe they made him do it
+Quenton K Aye Simply to make it look good, that's why. But it's an assumption that he tried to blind Ali when not even Angelo Dundee believed that. Nor did Ali beat him clean in the first fight. He pulled his punches even there and didn't follow up as he would have.
Mike Pinc have you actually watched the fight? Sonny Liston died Under mysterious circumstances so there's a lot of mystery surrounding him but in my opinion the first fight was a clean win for Ali and something did cause Ali to blink a lot and suddenly move around as if he couldn't see. That's all I have to say
he got him with a right, quick as fuck, pause and play, over and over, it looks like ali is feeling his way around him with his feet live, then he saw sonny cocking back, i think ali either used his mastery in defense and quickness to counter him or it was fight or flight and he struck light lightnight
It doesn't need to be that he threw the fight. He was certainly hit and he may just have got a shock and gave up. The assumption is always that boxers give their all; not true. Maybe he just wanted to get in and out as quickly as possible. That's different from throwing a fight.
+Boudahara Akicho Regardless, that wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. Liston could still take a hell of a shot back then and Ali was not a power puncher. Sonny took better shots than that from Cleveland Williams before age and a sheriff's bullet had taken its toll on him. Liston had no way of knowing how bad that would look from the public perspective and simply chose the wrong punch to play dead with.
If you want proof that Sonny went into the tank just ask yourself why Ali NEVER permitted anyone to ask him questions about that fight. He refused to talk about it. Ali couldn’t knock out a featherweight. Sonny Liston was hit by brutal punchers like Cleveland Williams and never went down. That 2nd Ali-Liston fight was a big time FIX.
This guy is a loon! I hate when someone tries to build a story off bullshit and hear say and then profit financially from it.... how convenient that he comes out with this crap after all involved have died and moved on...
Everyone who thinks Ali-Liston 2 was fixed or the knockdown was a "phantom punch" please watch it again and pay close attention to Ali's pectoral muscle right after the punch, you can clearly see it "rebound" which is what happens after a punch connects! Find a high-quality version and slow it down if you can and you will see! Also, Ali's punch is angled downward, even though it's a short right-hand it connected clearly and punching downwards will always have more power because more muscles are working and your going "with" gravity. By contrast if you throw a punch upwards the only muscle giving you power is your deltoid and you're working "against" gravity. The punch landed square, but if you always believe in conspiracies then fine, it was a phantom punch and Elvis, Bruce Lee, and Tupac are all alive on some secret island...
Liston wasn't "unconscious" he was just knocked down, some fighters need a moment to recover and then fall to avoid more damage, that could also explain why he catches himself.
Sonny took a dive, his first fist he fought hard. In the second, the phantom punch wasn't really a punch. I believe he took a dive to get paid and retire,,,...
On the other hand, a pro who is young has a very strong and well developed neck, better known as a "chin". The powerful neck results in less violent movement of the head when you get walloped, so the brain doesn't bang around inside your skull so much, and you don't get dizzy and lose consciousness so easily. I was going to say that, on the other hand, to contradict my earlier argument, it's also unlikely a pro boxer gets downed with a weak punch. Then I was going to say that Liston was older, so maybe he could have, but his neck looks pretty damn powerful to me. Who the hell knows.
Sonny Liston was definitely hit hard enough to bring him down, that is very clear. Whether he could have stood up back and continued the fight but he decided not to, we will never know for sure. Based on their earlier fight it is clear that Ali possesed the speed, skill and the strength to beat Sonny Liston. In the second fight he would have been more confident to do it...and would have won sooner or later. Anyway it's history and great respect to both legends. Peace be to all.
Sometimes the whole world can be wrong and this is one of those times. Why do I say that? Because if Liston really had taken a dive he would have stayed down. If this is such an obvious dive why get up and resume fighting? Which Liston clearly did as soon as Ali wasn’t standing directly over him. The only fishy thing about this fight was Nat Fleischer telling Joe Walcott to stop the fight, which he had no business doing. Watch the action right before Walcott stops it. Liston is seconds away from being legitimately knocked out. Had Walcott allowed the action to continue there never would have been any controversy at all. Liston was clearly outmatched by a bigger, faster, and younger fighter.
*If* Liston took a dive it was to save himself from another beating like he took in the first fight. The punch looked like it was enough for a flash knockdown anyhow. Only Liston knows if he could've gotten up. Even if he does it's only a matter of time until Clay stops him. There's no credible evidence whatsoever to support this guys outrageous claims.
Wow, a lot of comments on these two great fighters. In the first fight I felt Sonny was just frustrated with Ali. Muhammad was superb with landing his jabs and punches and ducking anything that Sonny through. That by the way is one of the greatest attributes that Ali had. The man could slip punches and make it look easy. Sonny being the "earlier day" George Foreman just got frustrated as many of his type of boxing styles do. I think this is what happen in the first fight. I've looked at the second fight quite a few times and could only say that it was fixed. I saw the phantom punch but I can't see it taking Sonny out like it was claimed to do. Later on in life and I think it was less than a year now, there was a story about the FBI releasing information on the second fight and saying that it was pretty much a fix because of some mob connections going on. That wouldn't surprise me. Even Muhammad a few that were suspect of manipulation. Bottom line. A writer gets emotionally involved with his subject just like this author did with Sonny and therefore praised him high on the list of great fighters. It's hard to really ever say who was the greatest of all times. Muhammad was one heck of a boxer and so was Sonny.
@Senior Billy Bull I checked your claim. The FBI suspected a fix in 1964. That's not proof. Proof means people directly involved giving evidence. When you get some of that get back to me
@Senior Billy Bull at least I know the difference between a victory and a defeat. Your version of Ali's career is very different from what the records show. But then I suppose you're right and all the fight judges are wrong. They should just hold up their hands and bow to your superior knowledge
Liston took a dive as he was suddenly feeling older from all the negative pressure he was feeling during the build up to the 2nd fight and was totally out shined by Alis personality that the crowd found kinda annoying at the beginning but then found him amusing, pretty, with quality boxing skills and leg movement. Liston felt he never got the recognition he deserved while champ and was constantly watched by the police. His mysterious demeanor, one word replies to the press, mob ties, and cold stares gained him no popular points either. At this time the public was really looking for a long reigning white champion and they got a pretty black man who amused them instead in Ali, who they grew to love. Ali was not a coward by avoiding the draft as some may think, Ali knew he would never see action anyways, just like Elvis Presley because he was too popular by then. Yes the "phantom punch" was real, but not hard enough to keep a man Liston`s size down for the full 10 count. Lots of boxers that just give up or want to throw the fight wait to get up right at the count of 9 or 10 and hope the ref will stop the fight for them so it doesnt look like a fix.
Ali was not a coward for evading the draft. He was listening to his supreme master Elija Mohamed , of whom he was terrified. An heroic conscientious objector he was not. The reason the fight was so under attended was related to the fear of an assassination of Ali by the Muslims, which MAY have contributed to Liston's staying the f*ck down. Or the threats to his family. Or the fact that Ali's camp postponed the fight when Liston was in his best shape yet.
@@stevenpina1983 Sister of Sonny Liston says that he was born one year after the Great War. You do the math. Plus, look at his pictures from different years and compare that to his acclaimed age. There is little doubt that he was much older than he claimed.
No dice legit punch and knockdown already proved the problem was he didn't try to get up before the 10 count. Some say he'd been threatened by the mob being his reason
Unless he was told to fall down in the first round, and was afraid that Ali might not hit him with another decent punch that round, it makes no sense to try to sell that shot as a knockout. Undoubtedly he dove, but he should have waited until Ali actually connected, or given what happened in the first fight, he should have let Ali knock him out.
absolutely a dive, but ALI could punch. in fact, early in their first fight he landed a right hand that put Sonny in trouble briefly.he also used that same punch to take Ron Lyle's legs totally away causing the fight to be stopped when Lyle stopped returning fire .that right hand put lots of guys in trouble, but his speed overshadowed his occasional power so much, there is a myth that he couldn't break an egg .Sonny was ,literally a bad actor. he goes down, THEN takes a knee, and goes down again.,just wishing he could disappear .ALI , meanwhile, can't understand why Liston went down .none of this stuff happens when someone really is hurt by a punch.
A badly beaten, humiliated and exhausted sonny Liston retires on his stool. Rematch, Liston retires on the canvas after being rocked by Ali’s counter right over Listons lunging jab. POW 💥. No one blames Liston for not wanting to continue the fight. Ali would have murdered Liston that night.
Disagree with this guy. Early in bout, particularly in first round, body is typically not warmed up and flash knockdowns occur. Liston lunged in with a jab and got hit over the top in first round; he did not see the punch. They should not have stopped that bout without a count of 10. Ridiculous. Score knockdown as legit and restart time when Liston got up - resume the fight. They told Walcott what to do. His count is THE COUNT. Ali did not go to neutral corner so Walcott did not pick up count which is exactly what he should have done.
@@pauldavis22 Because Walcott waved it off after the timekeeper said he counted ten (which is what Nat Fleisher yelled up to Walcott). They should not have done that, and Walcott should not have listened to them. I don't blame Walcott. He was just listening to Fleisher because he repeated to Walcott what the timekeeper said "I counted ten" is what the timekeeper said. So Walcott stopped the bout. The commission at ringside should have called over Joe Walcott at that point and told him, "Joe, you did not count ten. Ali did not go to neutral corner. You were correct. We will put the boxers, each one in a separate neutral corner and restart the clock at the time Liston got up". Instead commission just let it stand (Walcott's stopping bout because Fleisher yelled up that the timekeeper counted ten).
@@nycinstyle Walcott didn't know what he was doing, but I've watched that fight numerous times and the fact is that Liston was down for 15 seconds before he got up. When they began boxing again Ali would've finished him before the end of the round anyway, he was all over him. Doesn't really matter what Walcott/Fleischer/the timekeeper did - Ali was going to beat Liston anyway.
@@johnosullivan6439 I think Walcott made a mistake. A great boxer who did a lousy jobas ref here. He iss till a great guy and a hall of fame great boxer. Liston should have been allowed to continue. Even Ali thought so. I think Ali would have won if the fight continued, but it could have been an exciting bout. Liston going after Ali again. I think Liston mentally was no onger into boxing as he was years ago. He was no longer hungry and enjoying fighting. Ali is the better boxer, anyway. Liston is a great heavyweight, Ali obviously is ranked higher.
Liston didn't lower his left hand, he through a left hook and Ali through a right hand counterpunch at the speed of light. End of story. Since Liston died at the age of 38, so how could he have been 44 when he fought Ali.
Tim Mullens No it is a myth that has been disproven. Liston's approximate age was verified after the public release of the 1940 US census a few years ago. The census is taken on April 1st. He didn't exist yet during the 1930 census and was listed at 10 yrs old for the 1940 one. So Charles Liston was born sometime between late April-December 1930 making him 33 for the Clay fight.
+Bascorasco I'd like to see this "fact" in B & W. I think Sonny was much older, though still too tough and too much of a man for a young punk like Ali. Ali's fanatics still can't get it through their heads that the Phantom Punch couldn't have crushed a grape (regardless of whether Liston was coming forward or not), that their hero didn't even want to come out for the round he was supposed to be blind in and Dundee had to shove him out (yep, he wanted to quit) in the first fixed fight, and that he was simply an overrated a**hole. He brought a lousy attitude and braggadocio to the game that was totally unnecessary to sell tickets and influenced generations of athletes to be the same stupid way. All the true greats simply let their fists do the talking and they sold seats just fine. That this dork was a hero only shows the dark side that America has turned to.
I'll link you the article in a second. I find it funny when Ali haters vehemently stick to the fairy tale that Liston was 40+ when Ali whipped him. How was the first fight fixed? Liston was the one cheated by putting chemicals on his gloves to blind Ali. I don't buy the conspiracy stories on the second fight. Ali caught Liston cleanly with a lightning fast right hand Liston didn't see coming. Those shots that you don't see are the ones that put fighters down. Could Sonny have gotten up? Yes, but I feel he tried to be counted out because he knew he had no chance to win the fight. All it did was expose the pure cowardice that was deep inside Liston's psyche.
The force of the punch sometimes has little to do with it knocking you out . A punch on the tip of the jaw that jerks your head quickly and your brain whacks the inside of your skull can and does knock fighters out all the time .. If you look closely at the video that is the exact type of punch Liston was hit with and you can see his jerk violently to one side..Same thing with a punch to the temple, it doesn't have to be that hard but does knock fighters out anyway. As far as Ali not being a slugger , he did have 37 KO 's and knocked out one of the biggest punchers of all time Big George Forman,,
The first fight was legitimate. The second fight stunk to high heaven. Ali had two first-round knockouts in his pro career. One was against a bloated middleweight; the other was against the monstrous Liston. It was a clear dive. Why did Liston take a dive? Who knows.
Dave Goode Correct! I've always said this fight proves that good ex-fighters often do not make good referees. It's a whole different skill set. As you said, there was no count--and rightly so. Ali didn't go to a neutral corner. Nat Fleischer had nothing to do with this fight as an official. Walcott had no business listening to him when he said the fight was over.
Dave Goode Jersey Joe Walcott was a great fighter...he was good enough to beat Rocky Marciano for 12 rounds in their first fight...but as a referee, he was inept. The Clay-Liston rematch might have been a totally different fight had Arthur Mercante, or Ruby Goldstein been the referee.
@@imransuleman9739 that's what I see happen too. Also, the ref shouldn't have started counting until the other boxer is in their corner. Then it appears that someone off screen calls it, relaysthe message to the ref and the ref calls it. That job should fall oj the refs shoulders of calling the tko
dan quags02 Liston was counted out, the ref isnt the only 1 counting when a boxer gets drop. Thats why the ref disappeared for a sec then came back and stopped the fight.
It was a legitimate knockdown. A flash knockdown. Liston was momentarily stunned because he didn't see the punch coming. But he was not really hurt. He only stayed down because Ali was standing over Liston taunting him. He thought Ali was crazy. He only got up when he felt Ali was at a safe distance. Jersey Joe Walcot was to blame. He was an inexperienced referee who lost control of the fight. He didn't order Ali to the neutral corner. He didn't start the count. He left both fighters in the middle of the round unattended to have some without the authority tell him the fight was over. He then stopped the fight when it shouldn't have been stopped. He didn't take charge of the situation like a ref is supposed to. Listen didn't take a dive. He just didn't try to win because he knew he couldn't catch Ali. He was just going to take his whipping and collect his check. This was all Walcott's fault. Great great fighter but he totally sucked as a ref.
Think he’d 2nd or 3rd longest reach and still biggest fists of any heavyweight which when you consider the size of heavyweights today is amazing! Not the tallest or heaviest but at 6ft 1 and 218 combined with athletic abilities very few heavy weights at any stage ever had like Tyson is a fight for anyone in history no matter how big they where plus he s in his 40 s at this stage he was no joke that’s for sure
Look at the round at 25 percent speed. You can see the punch. It was a right that was kind of an uppercut that hit Liston on the jaw. You can see his head twist. He may well have been knocked out.
Nope...if you watch the punch itself in slow motion, it had such an impact that Liston's neck contorted and collapsed down on itself. Brain punch..rocked the cerebral cortex, and he crumpled.
I don't know if the mob killed him but he would've been pretty upset about not being taken care of for life after taking two losses. The mob would've just moved on. I see him as a guy who would keep bugging them and they had no use for him. That's the way it is dealing with those types, he sacrificed something huge not coming out for the round but 6 or 7 yrs later the mob isn't gonna feel they have to look for him for life.
@@peezebeuponyou3774 It's not just him. Many people at the time believed Sonny was unstoppable. He definitely lost the first fight against Clay, but the second one seems like a fix.
either liston could have made it big in hollywood or he was really hit,but for me i believe that that was not a hard enough knockout punch but a so fast surprise punch liston did not see it coming...i mean yall been surprised before to a point where you fall,and thats listons case which was a surprise together with force in it.
Yes...He Got hit good...He was coming in...with HIS weight into the punch as well as being hit...It lifted his left foot ,that had his weight back to his heel...It was almost the exact same punch Archie Moore knocked down Marciano with...
HELL'S HITMAN...I agree...Liston just gave up...He had his 200,000 ...and just said fuck it ...i'll go back to my hotel room and chill and count my money... Walcott was confused...Liston was confused...Ali knew he hit him , it just developed inconsistent with the normal protocol...
It was a dive, and that should be obvious. Ali should've knocked out anybody he fought if that weak of a punch could get it done. People are very, very ignorant if they think that punch could knock out any competent fighter.
Why does everyone who saw Ali come of age become acolytes who insist they know the facts about a fight that boxing historians have been debating for 51 years?
This guy knows absolutely nothing about boxing. Also to anyone who may be under the influence that Liston took a dive. Please research what occurs when the knockout punch is executed correctly. The brain is jarred against the skull wall causing confusion, loss of equilibrium and, disorientation. Then play the tape in slow motion. Watch Liston's neck at the point of impact.
Only one problem with that theory: Ali was never known as a one-punch knockout Fighter, the way Liston or marchiano were. Ali was known for his speed. Even Ali's response- telling Liston to get up demonstrates he didn't think he hit Liston very hard.
@@frankpaya690 LOOK AT THE REPLAY, the muscles in his arm at impact are ALL the evidence that you need...oh, and Ali's opponents were A LOT tougher than Marciano's etc.!!!!!!!!
@@frankpaya690 True! Ali was not known as a one punch knockout artist but, let's take into consideration Liston was moving towards Ali at the point of impact. Think of two automobiles bound for a head on collision moving at 30 mph. The point of impact is going to be greater than if one automobile is standing still.
he said he was going to hit him so hard and fast he will think he was sorrounded. Liston was knocked out clean,si do you want to say all those Ali knock outs were staged???were they acts...haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh
The 1st fight was no fix!! IMHO Sonny barely trained at all for the 1st bout with Ali and was way overconfident. He thought Ali was deep-down a scared sissy who would probably faint at the mere sight of him and crumple in about 2 rounds!! Liston was completely unprepared for Ali's speed and stinging punches and got his ass beat soundly!! The 2nd fight was ABSOLUTELY a tank job!! Now I will say that Ali definitely lands a legitimate punch--(the slow motion replays clearly show it)----but NO WAY was that punch hard enough for a knockout. I agree with what several folks have said in this thread-----basically Sonny realized he was too old and slow and had no chance to win so he laid down and quit!! But I will close by saying this--in neither bout did Sonny fight Ali at anywhere even CLOSE to his best. It would have been very, very interesting to see what would have happened if Ali fought a peak conditioned Sonny Liston. Not saying Ali would necessarily lose---but he would have been in one hell of a war, I have no doubt about that!!
Mike Pinc How do you explain Ali repeatedly busting that razor-like jab in his face throughout that fight?!! (Check out Liston's face at the end of the bout---looks like he got worked over pretty good----face is all lumped up!!)
nyterpfan Watch the 6th round of their first fight. Liston was throwing punches with his left hand, which was connected to the shoulder that was suppose to be "broken". Don't believe me....watch the video.
Melodie-Allyn BenEzra That doesn't mean, by throwing punches, that they were effective and were last-ditch efforts, though I think he dove even there. Liston's reflexes, incidentally, were excellent and Ali missed many of his punches.
All fights that are fixed, the fighter stays down. Thats why you can say that this fight was NOT FIXED, because Liston stood back up again, to continue fighting. .
I agree with you he was the fastest. His style was new and he was great at analyzing other fighters styles and adjusting, but I do believe if someone like Norton's style fought Ali at anytime in his career it would of gone the distant. Style's make fights; of course, Liston would of destroyed Norton.
999YORK lmao.. yeah Foreman totally looked drugged in the first 4 rounds when he was moving quick and throwing bombs at Ali.. The shit people believe just to discredit someone they have a deep hatred for is beyond ridiculous.
no question Liston took a dive. that fight was overrun with NOI thugs and Liston was afraid he would get killed by folks trying to avenge Malcom Xs murder.
If you look at the film you could see the quick straight right was a snappy shot that he never saw coming.. He walked right into it and it knocked his equilibrium off.. But, he still beat the count.. The flurry of punches that caused Joe to stop it didn't even hardly land! So why was it stopped and how could you say he took a dive??! This is what Liston allegedly said about it, as well..
No historian has elaborated on the kidnapping of Sonny's family. It explains a lot. I assume Ali didn't know because he was yelling at him to get up and Ali throughout his life was a man of principle's although he admitted later on that he made a sad mistake not supporting Malcolm
It's beyond me how anyone ever thought that "punch" was enough to put any heavyweight on the canvass, let alone Sonny Liston, let alone down for the count. Whether they were willing to come right out and say it, I think everyone involved in boxing knew it.
Anyone can go down with a strong punch but to see Liston spread all over the floor like a train had run him over is completely unbelievable !
Yes. Flash knockdowns happen. But fighters get up quickly.
See Marciano Walcott 2.
But Sonny decided to stay down
@@brandofan In an interview Sonny says he didn't get up as ref let Ali stand over him and waited for him to go to corner
@@steveca96
Interesting. I did that know that. I will review the film. Thanks for that
It’s not hard for people to just read the FBI reports because Liston was tied to the mafia.
Liston didn't take a dive. That kidnapping story is tinfoil hat nonsense. He was an alcoholic and he got drunk the night before the fight and went in the ring with a hangover and then the concussion from that right cross to the chin added to the effects of the booze.
NOBODY knew the day Liston was born or died. I think he definitely took a dive in the second fight. I've seen the punch hundreds of times. Hardly Marciano- Walcott.
Why did he get up and resume boxing then?
I watched the documentary on Liston called the champ that no one wanted. Really good insight into his life, the guy was a victim of the times.
Rainy day boxing, no?
Watched that fight at the Base Exchange on Yokota AB in Japan in 1964. We all knew he threw the fight. Clear as hell.
My dad was in Yokota/Tachikawa/Fuchu from early 60s to early 70s.
Sonny Liston was everything I wanted in a heavyweight champion of the world. He had a great name. He had a great intimidating stare. He had been in prison where he learned to box. He did not talk a lot. He had a devastating knock out punch. No one new how old he was.
So what does that mean, 😮people lose fights in prison to
liston took knockout dive,but that punch was so fast and had an element of surprise in it that liston went to the ground,well in a shameful way because ALI was still getting started and wanted to fight so bad he said"Get up you bum,they are not going to believe this,get up and fight!!",ALI was so genuine he knew that was not a knockout.
So genuine that he wouldn’t even talk about the dive when questioned after the bout?
@@James_Edward59you want Ali to end up dead by telling da truth you really think boxing is real yes they hit each other for frfr let me tell something anything involving big money is fake
Watch Liston against one of the hardest punchers of all time, Cleveland Williams. He takes straight on shots from Big Cat, and walks right thru them, but Ali, not exactly a slugger, KO's him with one arm punch while leaning backward?
Only a fool or someone who knows nothing about Liston believes in The Phantom Punch
gary m Liston was as athletic as Ali ever thought of being. He had the punch to put anybody to sleep, even your overinflated hero. He had more than a chance ... he should have beaten Ali to kingdom come. He was easily the most talented fighter Ali ever fought.
Liston walked right into that punch and you can see his whole body react. Plus he was getting old. There was no "phantom punch" it was a real punch.
Yep, that big right hand dropped Liston. it wasn't a dive
A 40 year old man got his ass kicked by a 22 year old, Getting old sucks
Ali Bombaye
I think that Sonny went down the way he did out of pride. He wanted it to be unbelievable, he wanted it to appear that he did not actually lose.
I agree, I think he wanted it to look obviously through the bout because it was already known he was tied to the mafia.
When Sonny Liston's father's mule died he put the plow straps around his son, and Sonny Liston pulled that plow. He became the mule. He was the youngest of eighteen children. So Sonny Liston knew what it was like to go hungry. All true. Sonny Liston is the toughest heavyweight champion that ever lived.
Yeah, he didn't get bruised when he hit the canvas, he's very strong, he only got bruised in his face when he lost to ali and they had to stop the fight 😮very strong fighter
He's a journalist. I'm not a boxer, but I've been in about 60-70 fights in my life, thankfully most of them before I turned 40 (I'm 54 now). For whatever reason. Doesn't matter. Not necessarily proud I was the kind of guy who got in a lot of fights, but proud I didn't back down at least. Anyway, I can think of numerous instances where I prevailed as a result of a weak punch. One in particular, outside Flanders House in Niantic, CT, 1986, was fighting a very tough guy, was out of bullets (figuratively speaking) and out of gas, about to lose, and probably about to be hurt bad. I was retreating, and somehow tripped on a big tree root, and stumbled backward. He saw this and came hard to finish me off, and out of sheer desperation, stumbling backward, I let go everything I could muster in some kind of a limpwristed backhand, no power no weight behind it. Miraculously, it caught him on the chin and snapped his head back. I was 165-170, he was prob 185. I guess my Guardian Angel put HIS weight behind it. The guy stumbled backward and landed on his back. You don't need to know the rest. The gloves make a big difference, for sure, make it less likely, but it's foolish to dismiss the possibility that Clay caught Liston just right with a seemingly weak punch. A pro boxer hits the heavy bag a couple of hours a day, sometimes hard, sometimes soft just to warm up, sometimes to work on footwork and combinations, sometimes to develop power, sometimes all of the above. A pro has enough power to knock a man down, that people don't appreciate, even if he's skinny. Watch Mark Breland, for example. I know Liston was a bad guy, but I also know that he might have just got knocked down. If you're dead sure he took a dive because you watched the fight and your vast knowledge told you it was so, it just means you're a sports journalist and never had a fight in your life.
Dude took a dive... Even my blind grand father can see that. lmao
I don't care how many fight you had, it's pretty obvious that he took that dive, a "boxer" should know better, dude is clearly not out or dizzy.
Liston got rocked by Ali’s counter right over listons running jab. Liston basically ran right into it. POW 💥
Liston though, f this, I’m not going to be baldly beaten, exhausted and humiliated again worse than the first match up. No one blames Liston for not wanting to continue after being rocked early in the first round.
@@theshepardthewolfandtheshe5304That isn’t what the FBI has on record 😂
Liston was very much underrated
Maybe he was, but you can see in the first fight the only round Liston really got near Ali was the round where Ali couldn't see. Ali was quite simply a different class to Liston.
He was rated pretty good when he hit the canvas 😮
The man was a beast before Tyson ,
grew up reading ring magazine in the late fifties and sixties ,
they just hinted but never delved into the dark side of things .
15 YEARS RESEARCHING ABOUT A BOXING FIGHT ???? LOL DUDE.... DAMN SHERLOCK
A quarter of a century is 25 years, not 15.
@@devinmichael905 why u do him like that
Check out Tyson vs Seldon, now THAT'S a dive!
Yep...Tyson vs. Spinks was a dive too! I was pissed. My friends and I drove down to Macon from ATL to watch the fight at the Macon Coloseum. Paid 30 bucks each to watch Spinks puss out and dive after taking one strong punch to the gut!
@@avonlady30 You don't know shit man. Michael Spinks was knocked out clean with powerful punches. Go to sleep moron.
fixed fight, i heard it from the boxing commish at the time Art Laurie.
Art Laurie knows what he"s talking about.Believe me.
Both of the Liston- Clay fights were fixed. the mob owned Liston, and he was unbeatable, and would have been the heavyweight champ for at least 3-4 more years. Clay was box office and would create interest and make everyone involved a lot of money. I got this information directly from a "Vegas insider" who I knew for almost 20 years before he told me. He waited until everyone involved was dead. Liston's "mysterious death" was a murder. He was broke and threatened to expose the fixed fights, the mob had a hooker give him a "hot shot" of heroin. Liston was only afraid of one thing in his life and that was a needle. That is the real story of the fixed fights, and Liston's murder. Many people won't want to believe it, but I have no motive in revealing the true story.
@@robertconley5905 Laurie used to come into the hilton sports book to bet the horses. He knew ash resnick of the thunderbird where liston trained. He told major riddle who owned the dunes not to bet the second fight that to stay out of it. Laurie Said Frankie cargo and blankie Palermo were controlling liston . Laurie managed a Texas fighter sponsored by the king ranch in Texas.
I think he took a dive but I believe if he did Ali wasn't in on it. I think sonny probably had someone put a large sum on a first round ko. He was in with the mob so anything is Possible. Such an underrated fighter and I'm glad he is starting to get more and more respect.
When Ali fougth Holmes and Berbick, it was *not* so much his age, but, he was already starting to show the signs of parkinsons (undiagnosed). 1978, the Mayo Clinic was running a battery of tests on Ali, as there was something wrong with him, but, it was not identified. So the author here using Holmes and Berbick as examples of what age can do is not a good example.
Mlb
Nth Degree hey N, I don’t understand why the diagnosis became “Parkinson’s disease, although I assume it was felt the true diagnosis would somehow taint Ali. My brother is afflicted with the disease and modern medicine had minimum success in dealing with it. Ali may very well have suffered from the disease, but the precursor was too many blows suffered through his long career just as many have in the past. The writers have always turned a blind eye to that which benefits no one...
Nth Degree I agree with you here mate. For this super sleuth investigative journalist not to know that Ali had Parkinson's when he fought Holmes, is frankly staggering.
No one questioned Liston's age when he was destroying heavyweights in the late 50's and early 60's , he loses to one of the best boxers of all time and suddenly he is ten years older. The second fight was simple if you watch Liston's head snap down when he is hit you can't fake that ,there was a punch to the temple. Even if you don't think there was a punch there should never have been a count started until Ali went to a neutral corner which he didn't . Nat Fleisure editor of the ring magazine was the time keeper and told Wallcott that he had counted Liston out,Wallcott was totally lost and inept and should have disregarded what Fleisure had told him and should have aloud the fight to continue.More than likely the ultimate results would have been the same but the bout would have gone down in history as another LONG COUNT.
The sports media & fans hated him during the 50s-60s and because he was a convict who had been in & out of prison several times as well as an enforcer for the Mob, he had very few fans. Did Ali hit him hard enough to knock him out? Absolutely not!
He was hit 10 times harder by Cleveland Williams and he never went down. Long Count?? Nah, maybe a poor acting job by Sonny, that fooled nobody. Both fights were a joke and they tarnished Liston big time. He's looked at as a bum that took a dive.
Ali can't punch?!?! Well I then guess Foreman knocked himself out, and the swollen face of Joe Frazier was from an allergic reaction. Ali can't punch, yes you're right.
Ali wasn't a one-punch knock-out guy...is usually what people mean when that comment is made. And he wasn't.
@@teller121 that is only because Ali rarely threw a punch with malicious intent! But if this man had to get his hands doctored because of how hard he was hitting his opponents (he hit so hard he was bruising his knuckles with fuckin gloves on! ) please don't let a boxing connoisseur hear you say that lol...... Ali was known to stop his own fights because his opponents were literally out on their feet and he didn't want to deliver that brain shattering power blow (which he was more than capable of throwing! ) that the typical brutal slugger had no problem delivering! This was a prime time Ali still figuring his power and everything else out.......but that punch was real..... if sonny could've recovered from it is the only real question...... but all these jaw jackers claiming that Ali had no punching power are the same ones that would get floored by this same mans stinging LEFT jab while floating in mid air without either of his feet being flat on the earth!
I think he meant in relation to Liston.
Ali was a Sharp puncher.
It took Ali awhile to really develop a fierce and effective knockout punch. In his early days he won mostly by wearing his man down rather than nailing him with a killer bomb. Even in his prime, he'd win with a furious flurry rather than what you might call a haymaker.
Any real fight fan knows the 1st was legit and the 2nd fight was fixed plus liston was in his 40s
Liston died when he was 39 or 40. They don't know because he doesnt have a birth certificate
it wasn't fixed I think sunny just quit
Liston was 32
Prior to the fight, The Ring magazine ran an article questioning Liston's true age. The article mentioned that Liston had a 19-year-old daughter, calling his alleged age of 32 into serious question.
@@emadwolf10 Liston wouldn't just quit a fight one time he had a broken jaw and fought the distance.
Gallender said the book is for Sonny Liston. How about the profits from the book?
Ya he worked his ass off to write a book and deserves the money you commie bastard
@@themadlad8540 that's work...excuse me.
Duh
While the motive for Liston's "dive" may be up for debate, what's not up for debate is the power of Ali's punch. First of all, it was in the first 90 seconds of the fight. Liston was not tired or hurt. Second of all, the punch did land but it was a counter punch, meaning there was considerably less power and leverage behind it. Lastly, there was mass confusion in the ring that nobody seems to understand. Jersey Joe Walcott was the referee and his job is to get the fighter scoring the knockdown to a neutral corner and begin counting. Ali did not cooperate and so therefore Walcott never even started counting! The reason the fight was stopped at 2:12 was because the timekeeper signaled to Jersey Joe that HE had counted him out! In my opinion, I think Liston took a dive and most likely it had to do with the Mafia but the reason he got up was because he was never counted out! We may never know the real story but we do know Sonny Liston most definitely had Mafia ties. Where I differ with this bozo on his book is he seems to think Liston was a more talented fighter! Whatever dude! Ali was far younger and had superior boxing skills. Doubtful the fight would have lasted more than 5 rounds. I
The Sonny Liston that was unbeatable from 1958-1963 was not the same fighter that humiliated himself twice against Ali.
Foreman trained and sparred with Liston during the late 60s said that Liston was stronger and a much better boxer than himself. I believe that Liston in his prime would've beaten everyone that Ali beat including Foreman, Frazier, Norton and Lyle.
Damn, the way he cut the man off at the end makes me think he had something to do with listons death!
600 people are still waiting for what that poor son of a beech author had to say
I don't think it was fixed. The Muslims had no reason to need to do that, as they had to know that Ali could handle Liston. As far as the Mob, why would they want Ali to win? They couldn't control him, as the Muslims told the Mob that they were more than willing to go to war with the Mob if they bothered Ali. What I think happened is that Liston quit, just like Duran did against Leonard. For all of his toughness, Sonny was fairly fragile emotionally. I think when he went down, he just thought, "who needs this", and decided to quit.
The mob wanted Ali to win because most of the money was on Liston to win even though he lost the first one the popular belief was that it was a fluke and people believed Liston would easily win the rematch, it all comes down to money and manipulating the odds
You hit it right on the head. EXACTLY! Thank you. This is such bull shit!
And to Mighty Joe: No, the mob did NOT want Ali to win, because even if they would have made money on him in this fight, it would be the LAST heavyweight fight that they would've made money on for as long as Ali was champion, because they didn't control him. As a long term strategy, Ali winning would have been a MAJOR DISASTER for the mob. It would take them out of the heavyweight fight fixing game COMPLETELY!
mrstep2me They didn't know Ali could handle Liston at all (and straight up, he couldn't), but he was a better meal ticket. Liston was hated and Ali was the gate. So they chose the punk over the pro ... plain and simple.
Mike Pinc
The Mob didn't control Ali. The Muslims made it clear that they were more than willing to start murdering mobsters if they bothered Ali. The Mob had too many illegal moneymakers in the ghetto to get into a black/Italian war that would end up making the ghetto off limits to them.
mrstep2me That's about as speculative as you can get, and doesn't explain how a powderpuff punch could put down a guy who took some shots by the hard-hitting Cleve Williams before Williams was felled by age and a deputy's bullet.
Step N Fetchit was taught the anchor punch by Jack Johnson. Zanuck was a huge boxing foxing fab and gave Johnson work as an extra. He was in Ali’s camp during the second Liston Ali fight in fact he sued Ali for not paying him.
Hey, Razorback Films, you don't happen to have that 1969 film of Texas and Arkansas, do you? Oh, I apologize. I didn't mean to be that cruel. 15-14.
The second fight Liston gets up on one knee and falls again. I knew then the fix was in. Ali won the first fight, but the second was a travesty.
Keith Jones Remember round 5 in their first fight? Liston had Clay in big trouble...but he couldn't put him away???
Liston knew all the tricks on how to cut the ring on a faster moving opponent....so why didn't he? Clay wanted Angelo Dundee to "cut the gloves" before that round started because he couldn't see, Sonny had a golden opportunity to catch him and put him away, but he didn't....he let Clay off the hook! I believe that fight was scored pretty close, if not even, until he quit on his stool before the 7th round.
Im still wondering about the first one too.
The second one was clearly rigged. Even Ali got nervous, and yelled :" Stand up ! Nobody is gonna believe this".
Knowing what i know now, i think Liston on purpose made it look bad, as a way of saying F you, to the men that got to him.
Ali was an upcomming fighter with a clean solid record and part of the nation of islam, a spokesman like Ali was something Elijah muhammad could use.
They fooled Tyson the same way.
@@melodie-allynbenezra8956 indeed (see my comment before this) maybe Liston was supposed to take a dive that round, but his pride wouldnt let him, so he stopped at that round, and saud he had a shoulder injury.
@@kingjinder5421 there is a new documentary about Liston, its called "Pariah". Its a real good vid ! I really recommend it.
@@kingjinder5421 and @SimplyLimbo This still amuses me. My father posted this a while ago, but forgot to switch accounts. I'm glad you still find my father's post interesting enough to respond to, after all this time.
Watch Liston catch himself and start to crawl before he hits the canvas. When you're knocked out you have no control over the legs so how do you catch and crawl?
thanks ,you know the real deal
He was only knocked out in the sense that he didn't meet the 10 count. When you get hit on the point of the chin/side of face and it spins your neck like that the spinal cord is temporarily pinched making you lose control of your legs and body but only for like a single second. Also the quick spin and force of the punch can make the fluid in your ears spin and that makes you feel like things are spinning. This leads (often in boxing not just in this knock down) to guys being semi conscious and trying to continue, but not quite sure which way to stand or what they are looking at, the mat the ceiling, its all spinning, hard to tell which way is up. Watch Amir Khan vs Danny Garcia and you will see an extended example of this. Once the inner ear is affected sometimes the fighter can never regain his physical composure even if he is mentally there and willing to continue. This fight could have been fixed but Liston catching himself on the fall is a natural reaction to falling that all humans develop. Put your hands out so you don't hit your face, even small children do it instinctively.
Half witted Ali worshipper Benballs doesn't know that THERE WAS NO TEN COUNT.
"Referee" Jersey Joe Walcott never counted. NOT a single count.
And Ali never went to a neutral corner--so by the rules of boxing the count is still at zero in that fight.
marcxopoco You are clearly trolling everyone on this page. everything I said was just stating facts. Not nut hugging Ali. Like I said Ali didn't need a "phantom punch" to win this one. He ALREADY beat Sonny and he did it easy. Call me whatever you want but this is a thread for conspiracy theorists, in the face of a lot of evidence that Ali had no reason to fix the fight if you want to believe he did feel free. I didn't say it wasn't fixed, I just said I see no reason why he would need to do that at all. When there is no smoke there is usually no fire. One last thing monkey brains, Ali didn't need Liston to prove his greatness. It was proven out in his other fights. Of all his "Big" fights, the two with Liston helped to make him famous but were not even in the top 3 defining fights of his career. So fake or not it's irrelevant to how good he was. And I'm atheist thank you, no religion for me. I know he is not the best boxer ever, just one of the very best HW ever and the best showman in boxing/sport period. Think what you want, say what you want, I won't respond, I see you trollin and hatin.
@@TheBenballs99 Actually Ali did need to beat Liston to prove himself
Liston came into fight wanting to win. He was not confident. Ali absolutely dominated Liston in the first fight. He wasn’t just faster but bigger at 6’3” to Listons 6’1”. Ali was young and very motivated. He WAS confident going into second fight. Liston had no answers for Ali. When fight 2 started Liston was unable to do anything with Ali, Ali was moving and hitting Sonny without any response from Liston. Liston was not seeing Ali punches. He ran into an Ali short right hand lead. It caught Sonny flush. He didn’t see it coming at all. The punch snapped Sonny ‘s head to the right and he fell. He wasn’t hurt but he was knocked down. He really didn’t want to fight on. He decided to stay down but changed his mind and actually beat the count. Ref Jersey Joe Walcott did everything right except overruling the idiot who rang the bell. Joe didn’t immediately start count (correctly) because Ali didn’t go to neutral corner. He correctly directed Ali to go to corner and then started the count. Liston got up to a knee, stumbled and made it back up by count 9. The fight resumed and Ali landed a couple good shots and the dumb presumptuous journalist (from Ring magazine?) rang the bell. Jersey Joe went a long with who ever was in charge of the timekeeping. Whoever that was felt that Liston got way over 10 seconds to get up which was true but correctly so as Ali did not go to neutral corner. Anyway, Liston didn’t seem to mind. He knew what the ending was going to be. He had no answers for Ali. He didn’t want to be in there. I’ve seen the “phantom punch” in slow motion a hundred times. It landed flush on Liston’s left temple and was completely unseen by Sonny. He wasn’t hurt. He was off balance and got hit in the temple by a short right hand he never saw. He went down. He could have got up but really didn’t want to endure a long night being humiliated by Ali. He tried to stay down but the count took so long he made it up. He was happy they stopped it. Sort of like the last Leonard-Duran fight. Duran knew he was being humiliated and just quit. Duran and Liston were two great, great fighters. Both were bullies and very prideful. They were in against fighters they didn’t like and had no answer for. Neither fight was fixed. Liston won his next 9 fights by KO before getting knocked out by Leotis Martin in a fight he dominated until the last round.
Liston had injured his shoulder in training camp and also had a torn meniscus that prevented him from doing roadwork so his conditioning was horrible when he fought Ali in their first fight. Sonny had no idea how good Ali was and unlike Liston Ali trained very hard for their Title fight and studied film footage of Sonny. Most of Ali's punches that landed on Sonny before the 6th round were weak punches that didn't faze Sonny. By the 6th round, Sonny had torn the tendon in his shoulder off the bone and it bled down into his bicep making it very difficult to raise his arm to protect himself. Ali did a lot of damage in the 6th round and when the 6th round ended the fight was scored as a tie. Sonny's handlers threw in the towel and Ali got the TKO.
The 2nd fight was a joke and whether it was a flash knock down or simply Sonny doing a poor job of acting like he was knocked out, it was a dive never the less.
I am an ALi fan, but most of all I am a boxing fan! I appreciate Sonny as a great heavy weight champ! He was the ultimate destroyer before Tyson. I believe Sonny dived! When you got the Mob on your back you do what they tell you, and Sonny could have been hit by a freight train, if it did knock him down he was coming right back up! Period! Nothing against Ali, but he did say during the fight, "Did he dive?", and you can hear it on the recording. As a former boxer myself, I can tell you a fighter knows when he has landed a 'solid' punch!
Ali didn't have the power to KO fighters with only 1 punch. When he knocked out Foreman he threw combinations and it took almost 17 punches to drop George.
Second fight was no fix either. I watched it in slow-motion and saw Ali flicked Liston's lazy left jab upwards and followed in the same motion that caught Liston coming in flush on the temple. Even the muscles on his back and his entire upper body shudder when he was hit. It was a very solid blow. No fix can make your flesh react like that. This story is a farce!
Thank you! Clearly all these "professionals" don't know anything about pressure points! Furthermore! You've got to show a motive! And if you think that the noi had the power to kidnap a heavy weight champions family and hold them fir ransom to throw a fight against Ali (to which he already lost a fight! ) then they are as dumb as they look!!!!!!!
Yeah right believe what you want I will give you 6 inches from my face with your goves to not knock me down but to knock me out yeah dream on. That close of a punch holds no power. You don't even have the concept of boxing. Boxers are told too step into the punch to prevent the wind mill power of the punch
You have never watched a Sonny Liston fight besides Ali you know nothing and that's coming from the biggest Ali fan there is the Polarbear !!!!!
The punches that hurt the most are the ones you don't see, and Liston, simply, didn't see Ali's punch.
I agree he got nailed by Ali's right, and as he went down, Ali tried to punch him with his left but didn't connect. It's not a "phantom punch" that got him, it was the right. Ali just wasn't liked back then, the crowd was booing him, so they didn't want to believe Liston went down.
I'm sure he saw Ali's punch very clearly and decided to take a dive with it. What he didn't count on was how stupid it looked to everyone. I always knew there was a punch, but I realized it couldn't have harmed a fly.
Your logic doesn't hold because Liston was more unpopular generally than Ali. Ali yelled at Liston because he KNEW nobody would believe it, and even ALI himself didn't. Liston set it up that way, as he would have never ever led with a jab from that distance.
Grow up. Sonny had to take a dive. Mafia. Read some BOOKS for chrissakes
Christopher,
We agree, because when the eyes do Not see the punch coming, then the brain cannot relay to the legs, to be prepared. How many times have we seen a boxer take a really hard punch and ask, how is he still standing ? Sure he has a strong jaw, but he also saw the punch coming..... anyone who has laced on the leather...... knows !
This is depressing. Didn't realize Liston was hated by so many. Doesn't seem like he had a single friend in the world.
He had, it was Joe Louis. And Ali himself later.
sonny liston was my hero but that punch from ali was real those who dont believe try taking that punch
Ali hit Liston right in the temple.
I think the Lewiston fight was a bona fide knockout. Why? Archie Moore, who was ringside, said it was definitely a knockout. He explained the punch. Archie Moore holds the record by far for the most professional knockouts. He would know.
Sonny was a bully, and once you stand up to a bully, they are never really the same again.
Mentally in that first round, Sonny knew that he couldn't beat Ali, and didn't want to go through that humiliation of getting beat down round by round and possibly getting knocked out in the later rounds again like in the first fight and was looking for an opportunity to get out of the fight.
+tom11zz884 Pure nonsense. Liston was much too classy and tough for Ali and that's why he took the dive twice.
This GUY is Crazy!!! 2nd best of all time???? Ever heard of Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, George Foreman??????? The reason ALI is NOT Judged on the Fights with Holmes and Berbick is because ALI took his Beating like a MAN!!!
MICHAEL N I don't know about second best (and he said at worst, so that's not even a given). But Ali's not first either. At least Louis, Marciano and probably Dempsey and Jack Johnson were better. Holmes laid off on Ali or would have taken him out with a ten-count, which is really what Ali deserved. Too bad Holmes felt sorry for him.
You cant be serious with a comment like that! Ali was Holmes' Idol NOT to mention gave Larry his Big Break into Boxing. Ali at that time was trying to make a few more Bucks before he retired and Reach for that magic just one more time. I was NOT an ALI fan growing up as a Kid. Joe Frazier & Ken Norton were Guy's I liked. But how nice would it have been if ALI was able to talk normal all these years after Boxing. You have to say ALI is One of the Greatest For sure.... But Sonny Liston??? Come on, lets not try and make Sonny out to be that good! he was NOT!! Big, Strong and Mean in the ring..But a Quitter and that's a fact!! Mike Pinc
MICHAEL N You seem to forget that Ali himself wanted to quit between rounds over that foreign substance issue (Dundee never thought it was intentional and also minimalized it) and Angie threw him off the stool. Without that, he'd have stayed on the stool himself and not answered the bell. So Ali is as big a quitter as Liston could've ever been. And you don't know what Liston was threatened with and he actually did have a bum shoulder.
The way Ali tried to humiliate his opponents in and out of the ring throughout his career, he deserves every problem he now has, and in spades. A person would have to be a fool to even admire this misfit.His punk, braggadocio attitude pervades boxing and even other sports to this very day. He was classless then, is classness now, and again, deserves his current problems.
Ok whatever Dude...Ali was a Tough son of a Bitch to be Honest! He did get up off that stool and Kick the shit out of Liston, Twice! The first time Nobody thought he had a Chance! And he did answer the bell for the last round in The Thrilla in Manila! Come on Man Ali was brash and sometime disrespectful but he was still Great! And to say that he deserves his condition is just Wrong! I will not go on any further but ALI being sick and You saying he deserves it is NOT how a TRUE Boxing fan would talk. Good day! Mike Pinc
MICHAEL N Ali wanted to quit in the first Liston fight and it was Dundee who pushed him off the stool. That's a fact. Live with it! He kicked the hell out of Liston neither time, as the second was an obvious dive and the first was too when you properly observe the film. Sonny let him escape in a manner that is not believable. As far as Liston's face being marked, that happens often in boxing, even to those who win. That is a barometer only of ignorance and nothing else.
There are a lot of fighters who were and are tough, though Ali's toughness is overrated. That's not enough. A "true" boxing fan would emphasize class over anything else and admit Ali to be the a**hole he was and is now. You people may wish to make excuses for this douchebag but I don't. I never have and I never will.
I could go on but I'll stop here.
funny interview.
Just take a look at ( muhammad ali phantom punch slow motion- you tube.)
Look at ali's face when he punch
look at liston's head
look at how liston trying not to fall
That was right punch,right time,right place
,see that slow motion and judge
Agreed.
If you hit a man downward on the chin the immediate neck twist easily can knock a man out. Max Bear killed men with the same punch.
You are right...a legitimate flash knockdown but Sonny was going to throw the fight and he used the knockdown to fulfill the promise to throw the fight. Unfortunately it wasn't a hard enough punch that anyone believed his rolling around on the canvas like he was out of it.
It's 100% believable the punch could knock Liston out/off his equilibrium.. it doesn't take much to certain areas of the head to nearly incapacitate a fighter.. what's unbelievable to me is Liston's reaction. I've seen fighters rocked 100 times from head shots, and the only moment where liston sells it is when he first tries to get up and his ankle quivers.. otherwise he rolls around and flops out his arms like he's on broadway.. and then when he gets up after the count he's clearly back in the fight.
The fix was so obvious, Stevie Wonder cried foul😂😂😂
The shoe motion video shows that Ali rocked him while Liston was coming in, it was a legit punch, Liston got back up and started fighting Ali again but the ref stopped it.
@@chaboi7 LListon's rolling around on the mat was worse acting than Tyson when he took the dive in Japan
Liston got rocked by Ali’s counter right, over listons lunging jab. Liston basically ran right into it. POW 💥
We have video that shows Liston and his wife getting off the plane in Lewiston two weeks before the fight as he began training in Poland Springs. And, we have video of Liston and his wife getting into the car on the night of the fight to go to St. Dominic's arena.
I remember older guys that followed boxing describing Liston as practically unbeatable.
READ books ! Sonny took a dive.
Not in the first fight he didn't. Clay was dancing rings around him. @@ignorecorporatenews
Had Sonny trained properly he may have stayed undefeated. He drank, hung out in bars, had a very negative cloud around him for years . . . bad people owned him and treated him like a mule of field hand. That causes him to come to the fight at 80% when he needed to be at 100% against Ali.
Spoken like a white baby boomer, all of whom were overly impressed by Liston at a young, impressionable age in their lives. In truth, Liston was a coward, a quitter, but worst of all, a true criminal. White boomers get weepy-eyed over a genuinely bad person. Liston didn't like getting hit. Marciano would have put him to sleep quickly. So would Frazier, Foreman, and Holmes. Ali did us all a favor by offing him. @@ronschuster4377
Tell Ali he was unbeatable. Ali had no respect for him. Liston was a common criminal who had no stamina and didn't like getting hit. Jack Johnson said he threw the fight to Willard, too. Same song, multiple verses. Liston was a paper tiger, totally outclassed by Clay.
ALI didn't need to KO sonny. he was perfectly willing to lay down or quit on his stool .I would call him a choke artist ,but I think gangsters got to him, and he continued to rack up wins in relative obscurity after this episode .w/ a very respectable record .he went 15-1 w/ 12 KO's after this .50-4 overall .39 career KO's as far as ALI's power ,watch the Foley fight, and the 11th round of the Lyle fight, to cite two.
i have always questioned the actions of Jersey Joe Walcott (referee) during the fight. i find Walcotts actions very strange indeed, and if the fix was in, then Walcott was part of it.
Walcott was an inexperienced referee, who shouldn't have been thrown into a title fight. Liston falling and rolling over surprised him, Ali, and the crowd as well.
@@mdmcdd1117 -- yeah but who was he looking at for instructions or whatever, before letting it continue. Then jumped in right after to stop it? It makes a lot of sense that Walcott was handpicked for a reason. Strange stuff.
@@MoMoMyPup10 A deer in headlights, plus maybe a little outside influence. Sonny wasnt going to win anyway. Ali wouldve KO'd him by the 12th
This is old but he was probably the ref because there were multiple death threats on Ali's and Listons lives. There were black muslins there, Malcolm X followers there, shady policemen and not to count in the countless other shady individuals at just any big boxing match.
The knockout was a clean temple shot. Ali sought that punch ever after and used it to knock out George Forman in 1976. He hit Forman in the temple and rocked him and recognized this was it, then took a step back and delivered combo on an already rummy man and the rest is history.
Also, Folly. Ali floored Foley twice with that same punch.
The "phantom punch" was somewhat lucky in that it was a rare time he would actually connect with it, though he often tried for it.
Liston was a dirty fighter. Ali whooped him cleanly and DECISIVELY! He earned his crown and defended it well.
not to split hairs but Ali knocked out Foreman in 1974 not 1976.
Ali beat him clean the first fight. Why would sonny try to temporary blind him to win while knowingly taking a dive? The 2nd fight... I love Ali but I think liston threw because when he did get up he didn't look hurt. Liston worked for the Mafia. Maybe they made him do it
+Quenton K Aye Simply to make it look good, that's why. But it's an assumption that he tried to blind Ali when not even Angelo Dundee believed that. Nor did Ali beat him clean in the first fight. He pulled his punches even there and didn't follow up as he would have.
Mike Pinc have you actually watched the fight? Sonny Liston died Under mysterious circumstances so there's a lot of mystery surrounding him but in my opinion the first fight was a clean win for Ali and something did cause Ali to blink a lot and suddenly move around as if he couldn't see. That's all I have to say
he got him with a right, quick as fuck, pause and play, over and over, it looks like ali is feeling his way around him with his feet live, then he saw sonny cocking back, i think ali either used his mastery in defense and quickness to counter him or it was fight or flight and he struck light lightnight
lightning*
It doesn't need to be that he threw the fight. He was certainly hit and he may just have got a shock and gave up. The assumption is always that boxers give their all; not true. Maybe he just wanted to get in and out as quickly as possible. That's different from throwing a fight.
+Craig Hicks You're speculating way out of your league. That punch couldn't crush a grape.
+Mike Pinc reply the video see how liston was coming with all his body and straight he got hit which makes the hit harder than it shows ....
+Mike Pinc The very quote from another video on this topic.
+Boudahara Akicho Regardless, that wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. Liston could still take a hell of a shot back then and Ali was not a power puncher. Sonny took better shots than that from Cleveland Williams before age and a sheriff's bullet had taken its toll on him. Liston had no way of knowing how bad that would look from the public perspective and simply chose the wrong punch to play dead with.
If you want proof that Sonny went into the tank just ask yourself why Ali NEVER permitted anyone to ask him questions about that fight. He refused to talk about it. Ali couldn’t knock out a featherweight. Sonny Liston was hit by brutal punchers like Cleveland Williams and never went down. That 2nd Ali-Liston fight was a big time FIX.
This guy is a loon! I hate when someone tries to build a story off bullshit and hear say and then profit financially from it.... how convenient that he comes out with this crap after all involved have died and moved on...
Amen.
Va HOSS you took the words out of my mouth...
Everyone who thinks Ali-Liston 2 was fixed or the knockdown was a "phantom punch" please watch it again and pay close attention to Ali's pectoral muscle right after the punch, you can clearly see it "rebound" which is what happens after a punch connects! Find a high-quality version and slow it down if you can and you will see! Also, Ali's punch is angled downward, even though it's a short right-hand it connected clearly and punching downwards will always have more power because more muscles are working and your going "with" gravity. By contrast if you throw a punch upwards the only muscle giving you power is your deltoid and you're working "against" gravity. The punch landed square, but if you always believe in conspiracies then fine, it was a phantom punch and Elvis, Bruce Lee, and Tupac are all alive on some secret island...
Liston wasn't "unconscious" he was just knocked down, some fighters need a moment to recover and then fall to avoid more damage, that could also explain why he catches himself.
Sonny took a dive, his first fist he fought hard. In the second, the phantom punch wasn't really a punch. I believe he took a dive to get paid and retire,,,...
On the other hand, a pro who is young has a very strong and well developed neck, better known as a "chin". The powerful neck results in less violent movement of the head when you get walloped, so the brain doesn't bang around inside your skull so much, and you don't get dizzy and lose consciousness so easily. I was going to say that, on the other hand, to contradict my earlier argument, it's also unlikely a pro boxer gets downed with a weak punch. Then I was going to say that Liston was older, so maybe he could have, but his neck looks pretty damn powerful to me. Who the hell knows.
Sonny Liston was definitely hit hard enough to bring him down, that is very clear. Whether he could have stood up back and continued the fight but he decided not to, we will never know for sure. Based on their earlier fight it is clear that Ali possesed the speed, skill and the strength to beat Sonny Liston. In the second fight he would have been more confident to do it...and would have won sooner or later. Anyway it's history and great respect to both legends. Peace be to all.
Watch it he got up and fought the ring side count man called it.
Both of those fights were fixed. Muhammad Ali sold tickets, Sonny didn't.
Sometimes the whole world can be wrong and this is one of those times. Why do I say that? Because if Liston really had taken a dive he would have stayed down. If this is such an obvious dive why get up and resume fighting? Which Liston clearly did as soon as Ali wasn’t standing directly over him. The only fishy thing about this fight was Nat Fleischer telling Joe Walcott to stop the fight, which he had no business doing. Watch the action right before Walcott stops it. Liston is seconds away from being legitimately knocked out. Had Walcott allowed the action to continue there never would have been any controversy at all. Liston was clearly outmatched by a bigger, faster, and younger fighter.
Ali was in on it thats why he was yelling at him saying noone will believe this
*If* Liston took a dive it was to save himself from another beating like he took in the first fight. The punch looked like it was enough for a flash knockdown anyhow. Only Liston knows if he could've gotten up. Even if he does it's only a matter of time until Clay stops him.
There's no credible evidence whatsoever to support this guys outrageous claims.
Look at the muscles in Ai's arm when he connects with the lightning quick punch, down goes Liston, DOWN GOES LISTON, sorry conspiracy SUCKA'S!!!!!!!!!
JACK Johnson greatest heavy weight Sonny Listen Greatest tragedy in heavyweight boxing history.
Wow, a lot of comments on these two great fighters. In the first fight I felt Sonny was just frustrated with Ali. Muhammad was superb with landing his jabs and punches and ducking anything that Sonny through. That by the way is one of the greatest attributes that Ali had. The man could slip punches and make it look easy. Sonny being the "earlier day" George Foreman just got frustrated as many of his type of boxing styles do. I think this is what happen in the first fight. I've looked at the second fight quite a few times and could only say that it was fixed. I saw the phantom punch but I can't see it taking Sonny out like it was claimed to do. Later on in life and I think it was less than a year now, there was a story about the FBI releasing information on the second fight and saying that it was pretty much a fix because of some mob connections going on. That wouldn't surprise me. Even Muhammad a few that were suspect of manipulation. Bottom line. A writer gets emotionally involved with his subject just like this author did with Sonny and therefore praised him high on the list of great fighters. It's hard to really ever say who was the greatest of all times. Muhammad was one heck of a boxer and so was Sonny.
@Senior Billy Bull so you're saying that Liston bet on himself to lose?
@Senior Billy Bull I get it. You don't like Ali. You could have said all that in one sentence
@Senior Billy Bull I checked your claim. The FBI suspected a fix in 1964. That's not proof. Proof means people directly involved giving evidence. When you get some of that get back to me
@Senior Billy Bull I'd actually forgotten them until you replied to me
@Senior Billy Bull at least I know the difference between a victory and a defeat. Your version of Ali's career is very different from what the records show. But then I suppose you're right and all the fight judges are wrong. They should just hold up their hands and bow to your superior knowledge
Liston took a dive as he was suddenly feeling older from all the negative pressure he was feeling during the build up to the 2nd fight and was totally out shined by Alis personality that the crowd found kinda annoying at the beginning but then found him amusing, pretty, with quality boxing skills and leg movement. Liston felt he never got the recognition he deserved while champ and was constantly watched by the police. His mysterious demeanor, one word replies to the press, mob ties, and cold stares gained him no popular points either. At this time the public was really looking for a long reigning white champion and they got a pretty black man who amused them instead in Ali, who they grew to love. Ali was not a coward by avoiding the draft as some may think, Ali knew he would never see action anyways, just like Elvis Presley because he was too popular by then. Yes the "phantom punch" was real, but not hard enough to keep a man Liston`s size down for the full 10 count. Lots of boxers that just give up or want to throw the fight wait to get up right at the count of 9 or 10 and hope the ref will stop the fight for them so it doesnt look like a fix.
Ali was not a coward for evading the draft. He was listening to his supreme master Elija Mohamed , of whom he was terrified. An heroic conscientious objector he was not. The reason the fight was so under attended was related to the fear of an assassination of Ali by the Muslims, which MAY have contributed to Liston's staying the f*ck down. Or the threats to his family. Or the fact that Ali's camp postponed the fight when Liston was in his best shape yet.
People do you realize that ALi was in his early 20's and Liston was in his early 40's. Liston was past his prime and Ali was in his!
Clint Metzger early 30’s
@@chuckeddy2588
Liston was around 40 years old at the time of his Ali fights.
@@chuckeddy2588 Liston was way older than he claimed.
Mid 30s. This author says he was born in 1919 "probably". But the standard thinking is that he was born around 1930.
@@stevenpina1983 Sister of Sonny Liston says that he was born one year after the Great War. You do the math. Plus, look at his pictures from different years and compare that to his acclaimed age. There is little doubt that he was much older than he claimed.
No dice legit punch and knockdown already proved the problem was he didn't try to get up before the 10 count. Some say he'd been threatened by the mob being his reason
Unless he was told to fall down in the first round, and was afraid that Ali might not hit him with another decent punch that round, it makes no sense to try to sell that shot as a knockout. Undoubtedly he dove, but he should have waited until Ali actually connected, or given what happened in the first fight, he should have let Ali knock him out.
Thank you for this! I’m going to buy that book!
Liston clearly the first one, would have lost the second one too just because Ali was just so good
Liston was old butndoesnt change the fact he it was rigged
absolutely a dive, but ALI could punch. in fact, early in their first fight he landed a right hand that put Sonny in trouble briefly.he also used that same punch to take Ron Lyle's legs totally away causing the fight to be stopped when Lyle stopped returning fire .that right hand put lots of guys in trouble, but his speed overshadowed his occasional power so much, there is a myth that he couldn't break an egg .Sonny was ,literally a bad actor. he goes down, THEN takes a knee, and goes down again.,just wishing he could disappear .ALI , meanwhile, can't understand why Liston went down .none of this stuff happens when someone really is hurt by a punch.
Also the classic pic of Ali standing over him shows Sonny with his hand spread out above his head is a surrendering position
He wasn't a puncher who could take out somebody like Liston. No way. Otherwise, he should have also taken out Frazier and Norton and couldn't.
A badly beaten, humiliated and exhausted sonny Liston retires on his stool.
Rematch, Liston retires on the canvas after being rocked by Ali’s counter right over Listons lunging jab. POW 💥.
No one blames Liston for not wanting to continue the fight. Ali would have murdered Liston that night.
Disagree with this guy. Early in bout, particularly in first round, body is typically not warmed up and flash knockdowns occur. Liston lunged in with a jab and got hit over the top in first round; he did not see the punch. They should not have stopped that bout without a count of 10. Ridiculous. Score knockdown as legit and restart time when Liston got up - resume the fight. They told Walcott what to do. His count is THE COUNT. Ali did not go to neutral corner so Walcott did not pick up count which is exactly what he should have done.
nycinstyle I agree with what you say. So why was the fight stopped because of what the timekeeper and Nat Flischer said?
@@pauldavis22 Because Walcott waved it off after the timekeeper said he counted ten (which is what Nat Fleisher yelled up to Walcott). They should not have done that, and Walcott should not have listened to them.
I don't blame Walcott. He was just listening to Fleisher because he repeated to Walcott what the timekeeper said "I counted ten" is what the timekeeper said. So Walcott stopped the bout.
The commission at ringside should have called over Joe Walcott at that point and told him, "Joe, you did not count ten. Ali did not go to neutral corner. You were correct. We will put the boxers, each one in a separate neutral corner and restart the clock at the time Liston got up". Instead commission just let it stand (Walcott's stopping bout because Fleisher yelled up that the timekeeper counted ten).
@@nycinstyle Walcott didn't know what he was doing, but I've watched that fight numerous times and the fact is that Liston was down for 15 seconds before he got up. When they began boxing again Ali would've finished him before the end of the round anyway, he was all over him. Doesn't really matter what Walcott/Fleischer/the timekeeper did - Ali was going to beat Liston anyway.
@@johnosullivan6439 I think Walcott made a mistake. A great boxer who did a lousy jobas ref here. He iss till a great guy and a hall of fame great boxer. Liston should have been allowed to continue. Even Ali thought so. I think Ali would have won if the fight continued, but it could have been an exciting bout. Liston going after Ali again. I think Liston mentally was no onger into boxing as he was years ago. He was no longer hungry and enjoying fighting. Ali is the better boxer, anyway. Liston is a great heavyweight, Ali obviously is ranked higher.
Liston didn't lower his left hand, he through a left hook and Ali through a right hand counterpunch at the speed of light. End of story. Since Liston died at the age of 38, so how could he have been 44 when he fought Ali.
sorry I misspelled threw (twice)
people forget that Sonny was old enough to be Clay's (Ali)father when they fought .
+Tim Mullens No that is a myth. He was about 33yrs old when he fought Clay.
+Bascorasco No it was a myth about the myth -43
Tim Mullens No it is a myth that has been disproven. Liston's approximate age was verified after the public release of the 1940 US census a few years ago. The census is taken on April 1st. He didn't exist yet during the 1930 census and was listed at 10 yrs old for the 1940 one. So Charles Liston was born sometime between late April-December 1930 making him 33 for the Clay fight.
+Bascorasco I'd like to see this "fact" in B & W. I think Sonny was much older, though still too tough and too much of a man for a young punk like Ali. Ali's fanatics still can't get it through their heads that the Phantom Punch couldn't have crushed a grape (regardless of whether Liston was coming forward or not), that their hero didn't even want to come out for the round he was supposed to be blind in and Dundee had to shove him out (yep, he wanted to quit) in the first fixed fight, and that he was simply an overrated a**hole.
He brought a lousy attitude and braggadocio to the game that was totally unnecessary to sell tickets and influenced generations of athletes to be the same stupid way. All the true greats simply let their fists do the talking and they sold seats just fine. That this dork was a hero only shows the dark side that America has turned to.
I'll link you the article in a second. I find it funny when Ali haters vehemently stick to the fairy tale that Liston was 40+ when Ali whipped him.
How was the first fight fixed? Liston was the one cheated by putting chemicals on his gloves to blind Ali.
I don't buy the conspiracy stories on the second fight. Ali caught Liston cleanly with a lightning fast right hand Liston didn't see coming. Those shots that you don't see are the ones that put fighters down. Could Sonny have gotten up? Yes, but I feel he tried to be counted out because he knew he had no chance to win the fight.
All it did was expose the pure cowardice that was deep inside Liston's psyche.
The force of the punch sometimes has little to do with it knocking you out . A punch on the tip of the jaw that jerks your head quickly and your brain whacks the inside of your skull can and does knock fighters out all the time .. If you look closely at the video that is the exact type of punch Liston was hit with and you can see his jerk violently to one side..Same thing with a punch to the temple, it doesn't have to be that hard but does knock fighters out anyway. As far as Ali not being a slugger , he did have 37 KO 's and knocked out one of the biggest punchers of all time Big George Forman,,
Foreman collapsed more due to exhaustion than anything to do with Ali's punching power.
@@tobylerone8416 I agree Big George was so tired he couldn't get up. Ali had more knockouts earlier in his career than later
The first fight was legitimate. The second fight stunk to high heaven. Ali had two first-round knockouts in his pro career. One was against a bloated middleweight; the other was against the monstrous Liston. It was a clear dive. Why did Liston take a dive? Who knows.
Walcott never even began a count.If the fight had continued there would have been no controversy.Just talk of a flash knockdown in the first.
Dave Goode Correct! I've always said this fight proves that good ex-fighters often do not make good referees. It's a whole different skill set. As you said, there was no count--and rightly so. Ali didn't go to a neutral corner. Nat Fleischer had nothing to do with this fight as an official. Walcott had no business listening to him when he said the fight was over.
Dave Goode Jersey Joe Walcott was a great fighter...he was good enough to beat Rocky Marciano for 12 rounds in their first fight...but as a referee, he was inept. The Clay-Liston rematch might have been a totally different fight had Arthur Mercante, or Ruby Goldstein been the referee.
Okay.Help me out here.Where did I say Jersey Joe wasn't a good fighter?
Lava1964 And the press should've been all over that Lava and they weren't. That alone shows you there was something rotten going on.
Ralston Reports brought to you by Ralston Purina! Woof woof!
It was the softest "knockout" punch I've ever seen.
I bet you can't take it
@@solodoublecup2859
Even a middleweight could take it. Ali was a powderpuff puncher.
Its happened before
Liston was not knocked out, he got up and then ref stopped it as he was getting hit without and reply.
@@imransuleman9739 that's what I see happen too. Also, the ref shouldn't have started counting until the other boxer is in their corner. Then it appears that someone off screen calls it, relaysthe message to the ref and the ref calls it. That job should fall oj the refs shoulders of calling the tko
No one mentioned that the fight was stopped by referee Jersey Joe Walcott. Liston was not counted out.
dan quags02 Liston was counted out, the ref isnt the only 1 counting when a boxer gets drop. Thats why the ref disappeared for a sec then came back and stopped the fight.
Liston none the less was not laying on the ground waiting for the fight to be stopped.
dan quags02 So then why wasnt he upset when the fight was stop? Many times a fight is stopped , the beaten complain they not done. 😂😂😂
It was a legitimate knockdown. A flash knockdown. Liston was momentarily stunned because he didn't see the punch coming. But he was not really hurt. He only stayed down because Ali was standing over Liston taunting him. He thought Ali was crazy. He only got up when he felt Ali was at a safe distance.
Jersey Joe Walcot was to blame. He was an inexperienced referee who lost control of the fight. He didn't order Ali to the neutral corner. He didn't start the count. He left both fighters in the middle of the round unattended to have some without the authority tell him the fight was over. He then stopped the fight when it shouldn't have been stopped. He didn't take charge of the situation like a ref is supposed to.
Listen didn't take a dive. He just didn't try to win because he knew he couldn't catch Ali. He was just going to take his whipping and collect his check.
This was all Walcott's fault. Great great fighter but he totally sucked as a ref.
Dumbest shit I heard this year.
Dude came from a "Bad Place" and now is fight just boxing... Yeah, he would be afraid of ALi. STFU.
@@jaymthesn5981 This is the dumbest shit I just read. Go take a dive punk.
Think he’d 2nd or 3rd longest reach and still biggest fists of any heavyweight which when you consider the size of heavyweights today is amazing! Not the tallest or heaviest but at 6ft 1 and 218 combined with athletic abilities very few heavy weights at any stage ever had like Tyson is a fight for anyone in history no matter how big they where plus he s in his 40 s at this stage he was no joke that’s for sure
WATCH HIS JAW BONE GO UP,AND THE MAN GOES DOWN.
Irrelevant. Ali was not as strong of a puncher to hurt him.
Liston got rocked by Ali’s counter right over Liston lunging jab. POW 💥
Look at the round at 25 percent speed. You can see the punch. It was a right that was kind of an uppercut that hit Liston on the jaw. You can see his head twist. He may well have been knocked out.
Nope...if you watch the punch itself in slow motion, it had such an impact that Liston's neck contorted and collapsed down on itself. Brain punch..rocked the cerebral cortex, and he crumpled.
Finally.
And a bit on his frontal cortex
Thanks, that was No phantom punch, a clear, beautiful solid punch
I don't know if the mob killed him but he would've been pretty upset about not being taken care of for life after taking two losses. The mob would've just moved on. I see him as a guy who would keep bugging them and they had no use for him. That's the way it is dealing with those types, he sacrificed something huge not coming out for the round but 6 or 7 yrs later the mob isn't gonna feel they have to look for him for life.
He's actually claiming that Liston was 45 when he fought Ali...
And that Liston was the more talented of the two...
@@peezebeuponyou3774 It's not just him. Many people at the time believed Sonny was unstoppable. He definitely lost the first fight against Clay, but the second one seems like a fix.
either liston could have made it big in hollywood or he was really hit,but for me i believe that that was not a hard enough knockout punch but a so fast surprise punch liston did not see it coming...i mean yall been surprised before to a point where you fall,and thats listons case which was a surprise together with force in it.
That is crap if you watch you can see that Ali caught him with a right hook to the temple.
Yes...He Got hit good...He was coming in...with HIS weight into the punch as well as being hit...It lifted his left foot ,that had his weight back to his heel...It was almost the exact same punch Archie Moore knocked down Marciano with...
HELL'S HITMAN...I agree...Liston just gave up...He had his 200,000 ...and just said fuck it ...i'll go back to my hotel room and chill and count my money... Walcott was confused...Liston was confused...Ali knew he hit him , it just developed inconsistent with the normal protocol...
It was a dive, and that should be obvious. Ali should've knocked out anybody he fought if that weak of a punch could get it done. People are very, very ignorant if they think that punch could knock out any competent fighter.
Liston admitted that he took a dive years later. He said the Black muslims we're crazy.
Why does everyone who saw Ali come of age become acolytes who insist they know the facts about a fight that boxing historians have been debating for 51 years?
Liston was handled by the Mob so anything is possible I don't think the Fight was fixed but Sonny may have been told to take the dive
This guy knows absolutely nothing about boxing. Also to anyone who may be under the influence that Liston took a dive. Please research what occurs when the knockout punch is executed correctly. The brain is jarred against the skull wall causing confusion, loss of equilibrium and, disorientation. Then play the tape in slow motion. Watch Liston's neck at the point of impact.
Only one problem with that theory: Ali was never known as a one-punch knockout Fighter, the way Liston or marchiano were. Ali was known for his speed. Even Ali's response- telling Liston to get up demonstrates he didn't think he hit Liston very hard.
And Ali's arm muscle, the trecceedeus, bicepta...just watch the muscles in his arm at impact!!!!!!!!
@@frankpaya690 LOOK AT THE REPLAY, the muscles in his arm at impact are ALL the evidence that you need...oh, and Ali's opponents were A LOT tougher than Marciano's etc.!!!!!!!!
@@frankpaya690 True! Ali was not known as a one punch knockout artist but, let's take into consideration Liston was moving towards Ali at the point of impact. Think of two automobiles bound for a head on collision moving at 30 mph. The point of impact is going to be greater than if one automobile is standing still.
I NEVER LIKED ALI RAY LEONARD OR LARRY HOMES BUT ALI TRUELY DESERVES MY UTMOST RESPECT
he said he was going to hit him so hard and fast he will think he was sorrounded.
Liston was knocked out clean,si do you want to say all those Ali knock outs were staged???were they acts...haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh
If Liston dove the fight why did he get up and keep on fighting
The 1st fight was no fix!! IMHO Sonny barely trained at all for the 1st bout with Ali and was way overconfident. He thought Ali was deep-down a scared sissy who would probably faint at the mere sight of him and crumple in about 2 rounds!! Liston was completely unprepared for Ali's speed and stinging punches and got his ass beat soundly!! The 2nd fight was ABSOLUTELY a tank job!! Now I will say that Ali definitely lands a legitimate punch--(the slow motion replays clearly show it)----but NO WAY was that punch hard enough for a knockout. I agree with what several folks have said in this thread-----basically Sonny realized he was too old and slow and had no chance to win so he laid down and quit!!
But I will close by saying this--in neither bout did Sonny fight Ali at anywhere even CLOSE to his best. It would have been very, very interesting to see what would have happened if Ali fought a peak conditioned Sonny Liston. Not saying Ali would necessarily lose---but he would have been in one hell of a war, I have no doubt about that!!
nyterpfan Liston pulled his punches even in the first fight. Both were fixed. Your opinion is humble but wrong.
Mike Pinc How do you explain Ali repeatedly busting that razor-like jab in his face throughout that fight?!! (Check out Liston's face at the end of the bout---looks like he got worked over pretty good----face is all lumped up!!)
nyterpfan Watch the 6th round of their first fight. Liston was throwing punches with his left hand, which was connected to the shoulder that was suppose to be "broken". Don't believe me....watch the video.
nyterpfan Real easy. Fighters have lumpy faces very often, and yet win their fights quite handily. That's meaningless.
Melodie-Allyn BenEzra That doesn't mean, by throwing punches, that they were effective and were last-ditch efforts, though I think he dove even there. Liston's reflexes, incidentally, were excellent and Ali missed many of his punches.
You can see when Liston went down, Ali ran over and motioned for him to get up told him to get up, because he knew that punch did not knock him down.
how much money does the liston off spring get from the book
All fights that are fixed, the fighter stays down. Thats why you can say that this fight was NOT FIXED, because Liston stood back up again, to continue fighting.
.
How could Ali knock out Liston with a signal punch and never put Leon Sphinx down in two fights?
I agree with you he was the fastest. His style was new and he was great at analyzing other fighters styles and adjusting, but I do believe if someone like Norton's style fought Ali at anytime in his career it would of gone the distant. Style's make fights; of course, Liston would of destroyed Norton.
Sonny beat the fuck out of police officers and took their gun. Do you think he would stand silent for his wife and kid being kidnapped
Fact!
999YORK lmao.. yeah Foreman totally looked drugged in the first 4 rounds when he was moving quick and throwing bombs at Ali.. The shit people believe just to discredit someone they have a deep hatred for is beyond ridiculous.
Uh, Ali was 36 and WAY past his prime against Spinks. He was also slurring his speech--showing signs of early Parkinson's.
no question Liston took a dive. that fight was overrun with NOI thugs and Liston was afraid he would get killed by folks trying to avenge Malcom Xs murder.
If you look at the film you could see the quick straight right was a snappy shot that he never saw coming.. He walked right into it and it knocked his equilibrium off.. But, he still beat the count..
The flurry of punches that caused Joe to stop it didn't even hardly land! So why was it stopped and how could you say he took a dive??!
This is what Liston allegedly said about it, as well..
No historian has elaborated on the kidnapping of Sonny's family. It explains a lot. I assume Ali didn't know because he was yelling at him to get up and Ali throughout his life was a man of principle's although he admitted later on that he made a sad mistake not supporting Malcolm
he took a dive plain and simple
Who cares if he "took a dive" he's a bum. just like you.
go soak your head
asswipe
Well said, @@totelife6443
Good comment, Michael. Tired of all these white boomers who get so sentimental about Liston.@@michaelfleetwood8512
I love good history on this fight,but we must make up our own mind and I respect everyones opinion.
It's beyond me how anyone ever thought that "punch" was enough to put any heavyweight on the canvass, let alone Sonny Liston, let alone down for the count. Whether they were willing to come right out and say it, I think everyone involved in boxing knew it.
Well I've been knocked out on my feet with that punch ( counter right hand over the jab). It's more powerful than the common person thinks.
@Apache King and I doubt you've ever been in a ring.
@Apache King apologies I read it wrong my bro.
ALI OUT FOUGHT HIS ASS CLEAN AND CLEAR! BOTH FIGHTS.
😂😂😂😂😂 you believe anything