I've noticed a trend among responses to the points I made in my video so to hopefully minimize the number of responses I get trying to argue against them, I'd like to make an FAQ to save would-be responders the time. Q: Beldam's use of the word "lovelies" could have nothing to do with calling Vivian a woman. What about when she called Doopliss and Marilyn her lovelies in Chapter 8? A: Beldam specifically says "sort of" and "kind of" lovelies when Doopliss joined her side, while she literally only ever says "lovelies" when referring to her team when Vivian was with her. I do not for the life of me understand what people are driving at when they try to argue this point as Beldam's usage of "lovelies" shows she's not only conscious of its definition, but is actively trying to meet Vivian halfway in respecting her transgender status. Q: Why doesn't Beldam just call her team the Shadow Sisters? Vivian just wants to be comfortable with how they're addressed as a group. A: This is textbook infantilization. Ignoring how Beldam being a twisted cretin shouldn't make her feelings invalid, Vivian's not a child. She should be trusted to be mature enough to respect her sister's logic and likewise should be held to a higher standard than trying to dictate how Beldam addresses her, and to complain about that reads as sour grapes. And since evidence exists to show Beldam is trying to be inclusive given her usage of the word "lovelies", the argument exists to say Vivian is overstepping her boundaries when she isn't presenting a convincing counterargument to Beldam to go further. It's purely manipulative behavior and the fact Vivian makes a habit to repeatedly do this paints her as selfish. Not a good defense for a minority that wishes to be seen as like anyone else. Q: Wouldn't Vivian's ending be worse if Beldam was blatantly bigoted? Making her abuse more subtle is better for Vivian's story. A: Honestly, this would be a decent argument if not for the fact that Beldam's anything BUT subtle about being a piece of crap. Beldam's transphobia being gone doesn't change the fact that she makes a habit to repeatedly gaslight Vivian on mistakes that she knows are entirely not her fault and she makes it a habit to belittle her for those exact same errors. If the GameCube's English dialogue could still have Vivian's ending be received negatively, it's illogical to give the remake a pass for making the same mistake when the circumstances are argued to be worse than before. Also, if you have to write Beldam to act uncharacteristic of her usual self to make Vivian's story work better when nothing before the final boss works in service of her character moving in that direction, it's bad writing. And this isn't even addressing how Beldam actively sees her legitimate complaints go unaddressed as Vivian acted defiantly intentionally and unprovoked.
A confrontation between vivian and the sibling abuse before the final chapters would have been good. We see bedum is mad at Vivian for going off doing something else which is understandable as the older sibling basically has to babysit I'd say chapter 4 7 and the shadow queen fight could have been good parts to have vivian speak her mind on wanting to be treated better
@ivanbluecool Vivian definitely could have used that. She's the most important partner story wise, she should likewise receive more focus outside of her primary chapter.
Honestly each partner deserved better. Tryd is a fantastic game but where it fails is having paetners be switched in and out of cutscenes. To fix this. Each chapter should have the "correct" partner speak the lines mext to mario to hear their pov on things. Prologue 1 and 4 did this fine by giving your partner the time to breath as koops reads the letter. Goombella is your ally first and vivian is your only option. Also bug fable did this better by having three non switch allies
@@PhantomAarantula yeah. Played it a few times and the side chapters are so much better being acceptable immediately and factor into the overall story.
Especially with Leif. He served as an excellent example of how to introduce themes of body dysmorphia and identity issues organically and the game as a whole definitely earned the right to express its message.
This video is absolutely incredible! I really thank you for raising all those important points who really put things into perspective, and many people just celebrated without really looking at WHAT they were celebrating. We gotta stop just blindly praising stuff and be sure that the thing we're looking at is actually well made or not.
@@PhantomAarantula yeah! This goes besides gender identities and representation, rewriting lines so willy nilly to be more ''safe'' literally destroys the themes and characters, and is really a shame that this is something that is so widespread nowadays, everyone's afraid of hurting the feelings of a random person online that we cant write bad people doing bad things anymore??
I do agree about the general dialogue changes. Antagonist and villain characters especially are supposed to be morally reprehensible. Removing all potentially offensive dialogue removes flavor from conflict and the players investment. Even for a character like Jerry, that's the reality of how many people would have reacted in the era this game was released and even now. Writing dialogue that represents implicit bigotry or sexism isn't endorsing that behavior, that's just how you write good stories. To sterilize the storytelling in this way makes fiction fundamentally less engaging.
I wasnt expecting to agree with this video But i actually do agree a fair ammount I wish this arc was better developed. I dont think it was ruined, Beldam's "punishment" tendency is beyond enough showing how abusive and awful she is, but it could undoubtedly be done better as you pointed out
I commend you for looking through all these scripts with a magnifying glass, I haven't realized there's more changes in the script beyond the Vivan stuff, I sympathize with Vivian for having a mean older sibling back on the GC version, and now the remake did Vivan dirty, not because of her idenity. And then I started thinking about remakes in general, this remake didn't do a whole lot (before adding the new stuff) besides making backtracking slightly quicker and making recipes easier to cook, now this remake might worse than the original.
@koiiblitz For more casual players, stuff like the ability to skip cutscenes after they've been seen once before, the enhanced graphics and cutscenes in general, and improved travel options do matter a lot. And they can definitely make the remake the definitive version if played first. The worse dialogue though is really only something I was quick to pick up on because I heard about the writing being different in a select few areas, and being the TTYD nerd I am, it wasn't too difficult to figure out which bits would be changed. Nonetheless, it's disappointing to know that for all the good the remake brought, the trade-offs make me still prefer the original for various reasons.
@@PhantomAarantula Besides fan made mods for GC version, the slower unskipable text is one of the reasons why I hesitate to return to the remake for a self imposed challenge
@koiiblitz I feel you on that. There's maybe one video left I want to make for the remake, and it involves beating the Pit before beating Chapter 1 again. Otherwise, I'm either returning to TTYD on GameCube, or just being done with Paper Mario in general.
I think a lot of people are severely misconstruing what you're trying to say here. Literally one of the first things you said was "I don't care if Vivian is cis or trans." With that being said, you did an amazing job of making the points you set out to make; Vivian was done dirty here, and the characters we were supposed to hate (Beldam, in this case) are now… more in the right? It baffles me how so many people are so wrapped up in Vivian's mention of being trans, while completely ignoring the fact that it was done so badly, it probably only made the existing issues worse. Like I've said before, bad representation is worse than none, since it just tarnishes the group's image. Honestly, I really appreciate you putting in all the effort into making this - this is something that needed to be acknowledged, and you did it in one of the best ways possible. (Just wish more people understood what you were trying to say rather than jumping to conclusions, but not much we can do about that)
Most people have received my points positively, it should be said. There's no shortage of people who actually like you believe I had legitimate points. And to that end, I am grateful. Ultimately, I don't think it could be expected that the people who disagree with me ever could be persuaded, but it wouldn't be fair to assume the worst of people. At least now a genuine case can be made when that behavior rears its ugly head in the future. And that's a win in my book.
My main problem with this video is that I don’t find the remake to be badly written even in regard to the points you made. I think that what they were going for was that Beldam was mean to Vivian, seeing her as the weak link, which got pushed further when vivian ‘realized she was her sister’ which Beldam didn’t respect, not because she was just transphobic, but because she saw it as pointless and annoying thus not respecting who she became. It would be bad if SPOILER ALERT she ends up having a change of heart by the end of the game, so if she was directly transphobic rather than only partially, it would make the ending worse considering she is going back with her toxic sister who had 0 tolerance to her gender. It also makes it more realistic, since rather than being full on transphobic, she is more or less transphobic by not respecting Vivian’s decision in a way that makes her feel comfortable, which I find stronger since a character if they are against a certain group should have a reason to help emphasize change or to better identify them as a character. The best example I can think of is in Justice League unlimited in the episode with Mongul, he outwardly is bashing Wonder Woman’s gender because he is going off of what he sees while fighting to taunt her. He is outwardly ruthless towards anyone who stands in his way because he is one of the more brutal villains in that series when compared to the ones also in the DCAU. As for the writing stuff like ‘my lovelies still work because the definition he shows doesn’t just apply to females especially considering the fact that Beldam is the vile witch archetype, so of course she is gonna say things that relate to her being that, especially with people or things she sees as necessary to complete her goals. As for her calling Vivian out for stepping out of line is also not really accurate considering she was blaming Vivian for losing the drawing of Mario when it was her bad, not only setting her up as unreliable when it comes to Vivian’s usefulness to her team, but also the fact she gets heavily distracted on correcting the sisters parts shows just how much blame she puts on Vivian for the wrong reasons. Also I feel like to stretched a bit on some parts to where they just sounded worse than they were which felt like you were stretching things, especially with how certain cutscenes. So overall although Beldam is not outwardly transphobic, she still feels like she disrespects Vivian gender whether she knows it or not, and I feel that characters don’t need to be on the nose when it comes to conflicts that involve transphobia and the such, since not every case of it is on the nose, some are more subtle to where even that person doing it doesn’t know, (which could explain why she refers to Vivian as a she even after getting mad at the sisters thing) which makes more sense why she has a change at the end while still not presenting her as a good person to her before.
I have a lot to say in response to this. I apologize if it feels like it drags on, but it's difficult for me to not be verbose as this is something I feel very strongly about. "Transphobic" is still the wrong word in my understanding of the situation. A much better argument can be made that Beldam is strict and dismissive. And it can still be argued that Vivian was in the wrong for derailing the introduction, it'd just mean both she and Beldam would be in the wrong since neither party wants to acquiesce to the other. However, that's still undermined by the fact that Beldam is the leader, and she isn't under any obligation to cater to the whims of her sisters anyway. Vivian still either way doesn't hesitate to chase after her "me first" mentality which is undeniably selfish. At that point, I legitimately cannot fathom how anyone can find her moment in Chapter 2 defensible outside of the fact that she's on Mario's team. The ending would have been worse if Beldam was outwardly transphobic, I will agree to that. Even the English version was guilty of that in regard to Vivian's appearance. However, that matters a lot less in context of Vivian being a worse character in the remake. If anything, I'd argue the paradigm simply shifted where Vivian's now able to use her gender identity as leverage whenever she wants as it was never properly addressed where before Beldam would be the primary aggressor. I don't imagine Wonder Woman was very verbally in-your-face about being a woman (never watched the show in question, just making inferences), and if you want to talk about what's more realistic, it's significantly easier to believe someone is bigoted when they're the one who strikes first in regard to "what" someone is when the other party is literally only trying to exist. And Beldam's bullying earlier had no clear connection to hating Vivian for being a transgender woman. If anything, the remake should have either deviated further from the original and have Vivian just cut her sisters off entirely, or not treat the issue as black and white as it did and have both Beldam and Vivian come to terms with their respective faults. Otherwise, I cannot in good faith agree with your assertion here. The "lovelies" bit early in Chapter 2 of my video... ironically, I actually received a comment from another user talking about how Beldam would call her group her "not-so-lovelies" when referring to Marilyn and Doopliss. And I don't know where they were going with that point, but it ironically reinforced what I said in the video because while Beldam called Marilyn and Vivian her lovelies as a pair of girls, she acknowledged the new split in genders with Marilyn being a "she" and Doopliss being a "he". But I otherwise don't really disagree that Beldam is an awful person. I don't however know how that translates to her hating Vivian for being transgender. And I'm not very quick to trust Beldam's word either, but you have to remember that as the player, we see more than Mario would. And for the purpose of the game's story, he really has no reason to distrust Beldam's lash out against Vivian at all. Of the little he's seen, there's literally nothing to suggest that Beldam was lying or even a bully to begin with. And Vivian's word alone should not be enough to convince Mario of that either during Chapter 4. If not for the fact that he needed all the help he could get, I don't think I'd want to entertain anything Vivian had to say for even a solid second. Which makes her feel more like a means to an end, and not a worthwhile partner to have around. If I'm being quite honest, every defense I've seen be given for Vivian so far just reads as hypocritical. To think Beldam should have been better to her is entirely valid. But to do so while ignoring Vivian's very real problems does not read as being fair at all. And the fact there's even evidence of how Beldam's dialogue was cherry-picked to make her look worse only further cements my opinion on that.
11:01 That’s not chess notation! Chess notation is when you write out a move in text, for example moving a rook to the space e4 would be written as Re4. What you showed would be ChessCom move classification. Great video regardless
That's an interesting video, and I do agree with a lot of it (particularly how the internet tries to portray Beldam as this raging transphobic when theres almost nothing that reenforces this in-game).
Yeaaaa even I thought they were way too strong with the whole sister thing, like if they calmed down in chapter 2 I wouldn’t even bat an eye at chapter 4 beyond a “oh cool”. Still love Vivian, and it really doesn’t affect my love for the game as a whole, but does seem waaaaay too far trying to correct something from the OG games. Great video honestly.
That's fine. The purpose of my video after all isn't to turn people off from having an opinion that favors Vivian. Just to try and communicate an argument for the other side. Appreciate your comment.
I'm in pain, y'all. This is my favorite video game of all time; I hate speaking ill of TTYD. Especially of Vivian. But the dark truth of the Shadow Witch Trials must be exposed.
No offense but the whole "lovelies is a female term" argument kinda falls apart when you go the the Shadow Sirens rematch and Beldam says "kind-of-lovelies" when referring to both Marylin and Doopliss lol (also saying that Beldam is in the right for getting mad at Vivian wanting to be called sister is WILD because the dialogue implies that Beldam outright refuses to call her as such at any times and if it's such an issue just change the dang team name instead of complaining about your sister wanted to be called as such)
But Doopliss is a boy. Kind-of-lovelies and Sort-of-lovelies acknowledges that since she's addressing both Doopliss and Marilyn. (I don't see "Not-So-Lovelies" be spoken by her at all). And I don't intend to offend, but your sentiment on Beldam being in the wrong for not just giving in to Vivian's wishes is fundamentally flawed. Beldam isn't under any obligation to just give into her sister's wishes, that's what can be adequately called "enabling".
@PhantomAarantula i misremembered Beldam's dialogue in the Shadow Palace, but my point is that she wouldn't have said lovelies in plural (even if she said kind-of at first) if she wasn't also referring to Doopliss when saying it. As for the sister thing, I don't really think that it would be enabling bad behaviour because, as I've said, Vivian's reaction implies that Beldam never calls her that at all, even when not doing the team presentation, and because it really isn't that serious for it to be "enabling", as she's pretty much just asking Beldam to call her her sister
I'm sorry, this is a bad point that you're trying to make. I have literally zero idea what you're trying to drive at by somehow claiming there's something wrong with Beldam calling Marilyn and Doopliss her sort-of or kind-of lovelies when they're definitively not both females. Marilyn is; Doopliss isn't. And the fact she didn't try using that terminology when Vivian was a part of her group and only ever addressed her and Marilyn as Lovelies is imho very decisive evidence against whatever point you're trying to argue here. As far as the bit regarding enabling bad behavior, this is actually something I called out near the end of the video. So, if you wish to present the point that Beldam shouldn't be so dismissive over Vivian's feelings, I'd like for you to acknowledge the hypocrisy in shaming Beldam for that when Vivian actively refuses to acquiesce when it's implied that she accepted Beldam's logic as to why they're named what they are before, just to go behind her back during the one time where Mario can conceivably make sound judgments on the Sirens' relationships. Trust me, I wouldn't go through the effort of making a video like this knowing the massive support group Vivian enjoys if I wasn't extremely confident in what I was saying. You're more than free to try and prove me wrong, but I already went through the trouble of trying to as much first.
Nice vid bro, and I have to say, a lot of things you pointed out are constantly happening in modern games, it's ridiculous. People are so crazily obsessed with this gender nonsense and what pisses me off so much about it, is that you can make a good story with said themes without them being thrown at your face, believe it or not, like disco elysium for example. And like you said, I don't care what Vivian is and Nintendo certainly does not either, they're just being as vague as possible to avoid any repercussions, everyone's so scared about this, walking on eggshells has become the norm. I guarantee you that the people that are so preoccupied with what he is don't even play games and are just terminally online, farming virtue points. There is little interest in learning what an otokonoko is, for example, just a fatal obsession about how a fictional character identifies himself as, similar to guilty gear's bridget nonsense, so "one side" can "win" the narrative and forget about it two days later, I'm so sick of this. My man, I could not care less about what's inside my fictional character's pants, when did we go so wrong, that THIS has become so important nowadays. Jesus. Everything has become so neutered.
@Kamininha The internet for all the good it offers as far as ease of research and immediate access to information has done a lot of damage to individual people with these radicalized ideals where people are just absurdly polarized nowadays. Combine that with how much incentive there is to just tell people what they want you to say and being as brand friendly as possible to maximize how many people like you, it's depressing how honesty and being genuine is seen as less valuable than being likeable. Thanks for your sentiment.
@@PhantomAarantula Thank you for replying and being polite. To add to that, unfortunately it's so rare seeing people being able to have conversations like adults, like you just did, even if you agree or not with what I said. Subscribed, well done dude.
Honestly, I do have issues with Vivian's gender in the remake in ways I don't have issues with things like the character bios throwing pronouns at you in Beast Breaker. And there are ways I have issues with both, as someone who sometimes suffers from gender dysphoria (alongside other species of body dysmorphia) but also believes such identities are always false. Vivian in the original Japanese version was explicitly an effeminate male, Vivian in the old English localization was simplified and made more relatable by being a female who is mistreated and bullied by her siblings. The political change to be transgender is an example of activism infiltrating the game industry. Making the character trans is a much bigger and more intentional change than making the character female, even though it technically leaves the character the same sex as the original. And I of course agree with all your points of the writing being poorly handled. Doesn't matter if you genuinely believe that a brain can have a "correct" internal identity completely at odds with the rest of the person's existence at a cellular level like some of my friends, or believe as I do that objective reality trumps any feelings or insecurities you may have or any turmoil and mental illness you may suffer from. The writing is sloppy and limp-wristed either way.
@@RoninCatholic Damn straight. I actually love the idea of Vivian being an effeminate man because I think validating boys with interests that have interests considered out of line with their gender opposes harmful stereotypes like girls can't enjoy sports or boys can't pursue practices like ballet.
Except she literally was a trans girl in the original version too? No offense but I feel like a guy wouldn't start frowning and being about to cry if their sister called them a guy. Also as far as I know Vivian doesn't refer to herself as a boy even once through the entire OG Japanese version, which basically determines a person's gender identity is since it's literally based on how the person feels
@@Roman-ik3cf "Trans in the original too" is historical revisionism. The term used in the original Japanese version describes a man with some feminine presentation, possibly including but not limited to cross dressing. This is like when people claim Samus is trans because one of the staffers for a game made a one-off joke about being a "Newhalf" once. It doesn't actually mean the same thing. Transgenderism is actually an ALMOST exclusively American thing, making some sense as it was invented in the mid 20th century by a pedophile as an excuse to molest children. Knowing the history doesn't make my own identity struggles easier.
There’s so many things I could pick apart here out of pure frustration, but arguing is tiring and not particularly fun, so instead you get an annoyed comment I hope your future videos go well
more people need to see this video, the writting of the remake is super flawed. I kept telling others a simmilar story like that Vivian telling Mario "the Trans line" is quite forced but they made fun of me by being called "Transpobic Beldam Agent who denies objectevely better story" I am not making this up.
@volvoman5262 I believe you. But I'm sadly not very skilled at reaching lots of people when making videos so unless someone prominent wants to give it more attention, I'm afraid nothing will really change.
@@volvoman5262 I've accepted the risks that would come with making this video months ago. If you wish to share it, you have my permission. But knowing Reddit, I do not imagine it will go far.
For example you apparently didn't know this but it makes us happy to have our identities validated that's why Vivian says it would make her happy for Beldum to call her a sister because as a member of the trans community it fills us with dopamine and makes us happy it's not sappy either like you claim because it's just asking for basic respect
Also I find you saying Vivian's identity doesn't matter kinda gross tbh these characters affect people I have heard stories about people discovering they are trans themselves after being introduced to Vivian shouldn't you be happy for us?
Also the violation of show don't tell thing is incredibly stupid don't you understand how much a big moment this is? That nintendo has confirmed a character is trans we needed confirmation even birdo didn't get solid confirmation like this it's incredibly rare
I've noticed a trend among responses to the points I made in my video so to hopefully minimize the number of responses I get trying to argue against them, I'd like to make an FAQ to save would-be responders the time.
Q: Beldam's use of the word "lovelies" could have nothing to do with calling Vivian a woman. What about when she called Doopliss and Marilyn her lovelies in Chapter 8?
A: Beldam specifically says "sort of" and "kind of" lovelies when Doopliss joined her side, while she literally only ever says "lovelies" when referring to her team when Vivian was with her. I do not for the life of me understand what people are driving at when they try to argue this point as Beldam's usage of "lovelies" shows she's not only conscious of its definition, but is actively trying to meet Vivian halfway in respecting her transgender status.
Q: Why doesn't Beldam just call her team the Shadow Sisters? Vivian just wants to be comfortable with how they're addressed as a group.
A: This is textbook infantilization. Ignoring how Beldam being a twisted cretin shouldn't make her feelings invalid, Vivian's not a child. She should be trusted to be mature enough to respect her sister's logic and likewise should be held to a higher standard than trying to dictate how Beldam addresses her, and to complain about that reads as sour grapes. And since evidence exists to show Beldam is trying to be inclusive given her usage of the word "lovelies", the argument exists to say Vivian is overstepping her boundaries when she isn't presenting a convincing counterargument to Beldam to go further. It's purely manipulative behavior and the fact Vivian makes a habit to repeatedly do this paints her as selfish. Not a good defense for a minority that wishes to be seen as like anyone else.
Q: Wouldn't Vivian's ending be worse if Beldam was blatantly bigoted? Making her abuse more subtle is better for Vivian's story.
A: Honestly, this would be a decent argument if not for the fact that Beldam's anything BUT subtle about being a piece of crap. Beldam's transphobia being gone doesn't change the fact that she makes a habit to repeatedly gaslight Vivian on mistakes that she knows are entirely not her fault and she makes it a habit to belittle her for those exact same errors. If the GameCube's English dialogue could still have Vivian's ending be received negatively, it's illogical to give the remake a pass for making the same mistake when the circumstances are argued to be worse than before. Also, if you have to write Beldam to act uncharacteristic of her usual self to make Vivian's story work better when nothing before the final boss works in service of her character moving in that direction, it's bad writing. And this isn't even addressing how Beldam actively sees her legitimate complaints go unaddressed as Vivian acted defiantly intentionally and unprovoked.
A confrontation between vivian and the sibling abuse before the final chapters would have been good. We see bedum is mad at Vivian for going off doing something else which is understandable as the older sibling basically has to babysit
I'd say chapter 4 7 and the shadow queen fight could have been good parts to have vivian speak her mind on wanting to be treated better
@ivanbluecool Vivian definitely could have used that. She's the most important partner story wise, she should likewise receive more focus outside of her primary chapter.
Honestly each partner deserved better. Tryd is a fantastic game but where it fails is having paetners be switched in and out of cutscenes.
To fix this. Each chapter should have the "correct" partner speak the lines mext to mario to hear their pov on things. Prologue 1 and 4 did this fine by giving your partner the time to breath as koops reads the letter. Goombella is your ally first and vivian is your only option.
Also bug fable did this better by having three non switch allies
@@ivanbluecool Bug Fables just does so much right in general.
@@PhantomAarantula yeah. Played it a few times and the side chapters are so much better being acceptable immediately and factor into the overall story.
Especially with Leif. He served as an excellent example of how to introduce themes of body dysmorphia and identity issues organically and the game as a whole definitely earned the right to express its message.
I guess maybe they'll do it better in the next game
This video is absolutely incredible! I really thank you for raising all those important points who really put things into perspective, and many people just celebrated without really looking at WHAT they were celebrating.
We gotta stop just blindly praising stuff and be sure that the thing we're looking at is actually well made or not.
It does my heart good to see people can acknowledge a controversial opinion can be argued in good faith.
@@PhantomAarantula yeah! This goes besides gender identities and representation, rewriting lines so willy nilly to be more ''safe'' literally destroys the themes and characters, and is really a shame that this is something that is so widespread nowadays, everyone's afraid of hurting the feelings of a random person online that we cant write bad people doing bad things anymore??
@CoqueiroLendario This take is like night and day when looked side-by-side with the last comment I got under this video. Lmao
I do agree about the general dialogue changes. Antagonist and villain characters especially are supposed to be morally reprehensible. Removing all potentially offensive dialogue removes flavor from conflict and the players investment. Even for a character like Jerry, that's the reality of how many people would have reacted in the era this game was released and even now. Writing dialogue that represents implicit bigotry or sexism isn't endorsing that behavior, that's just how you write good stories. To sterilize the storytelling in this way makes fiction fundamentally less engaging.
Yeah, that's a pretty good way to summarize the importance of letting bad people in fiction actually be bad.
I wasnt expecting to agree with this video
But i actually do agree a fair ammount
I wish this arc was better developed. I dont think it was ruined, Beldam's "punishment" tendency is beyond enough showing how abusive and awful she is, but it could undoubtedly be done better as you pointed out
Oh, I absolutely agree that Beldam is abusive. There's definitely a strong point to be made in regard to that.
I commend you for looking through all these scripts with a magnifying glass, I haven't realized there's more changes in the script beyond the Vivan stuff, I sympathize with Vivian for having a mean older sibling back on the GC version, and now the remake did Vivan dirty, not because of her idenity.
And then I started thinking about remakes in general, this remake didn't do a whole lot (before adding the new stuff) besides making backtracking slightly quicker and making recipes easier to cook, now this remake might worse than the original.
@koiiblitz For more casual players, stuff like the ability to skip cutscenes after they've been seen once before, the enhanced graphics and cutscenes in general, and improved travel options do matter a lot. And they can definitely make the remake the definitive version if played first. The worse dialogue though is really only something I was quick to pick up on because I heard about the writing being different in a select few areas, and being the TTYD nerd I am, it wasn't too difficult to figure out which bits would be changed.
Nonetheless, it's disappointing to know that for all the good the remake brought, the trade-offs make me still prefer the original for various reasons.
@@PhantomAarantula Besides fan made mods for GC version, the slower unskipable text is one of the reasons why I hesitate to return to the remake for a self imposed challenge
@koiiblitz I feel you on that. There's maybe one video left I want to make for the remake, and it involves beating the Pit before beating Chapter 1 again. Otherwise, I'm either returning to TTYD on GameCube, or just being done with Paper Mario in general.
@@PhantomAarantula I respect that, and I enjoy your wacky little challenges 👍
I think a lot of people are severely misconstruing what you're trying to say here. Literally one of the first things you said was "I don't care if Vivian is cis or trans." With that being said, you did an amazing job of making the points you set out to make; Vivian was done dirty here, and the characters we were supposed to hate (Beldam, in this case) are now… more in the right?
It baffles me how so many people are so wrapped up in Vivian's mention of being trans, while completely ignoring the fact that it was done so badly, it probably only made the existing issues worse. Like I've said before, bad representation is worse than none, since it just tarnishes the group's image.
Honestly, I really appreciate you putting in all the effort into making this - this is something that needed to be acknowledged, and you did it in one of the best ways possible. (Just wish more people understood what you were trying to say rather than jumping to conclusions, but not much we can do about that)
Most people have received my points positively, it should be said. There's no shortage of people who actually like you believe I had legitimate points. And to that end, I am grateful. Ultimately, I don't think it could be expected that the people who disagree with me ever could be persuaded, but it wouldn't be fair to assume the worst of people. At least now a genuine case can be made when that behavior rears its ugly head in the future. And that's a win in my book.
My main problem with this video is that I don’t find the remake to be badly written even in regard to the points you made.
I think that what they were going for was that Beldam was mean to Vivian, seeing her as the weak link, which got pushed further when vivian ‘realized she was her sister’ which Beldam didn’t respect, not because she was just transphobic, but because she saw it as pointless and annoying thus not respecting who she became.
It would be bad if SPOILER ALERT she ends up having a change of heart by the end of the game, so if she was directly transphobic rather than only partially, it would make the ending worse considering she is going back with her toxic sister who had 0 tolerance to her gender.
It also makes it more realistic, since rather than being full on transphobic, she is more or less transphobic by not respecting Vivian’s decision in a way that makes her feel comfortable, which I find stronger since a character if they are against a certain group should have a reason to help emphasize change or to better identify them as a character. The best example I can think of is in Justice League unlimited in the episode with Mongul, he outwardly is bashing Wonder Woman’s gender because he is going off of what he sees while fighting to taunt her. He is outwardly ruthless towards anyone who stands in his way because he is one of the more brutal villains in that series when compared to the ones also in the DCAU.
As for the writing stuff like ‘my lovelies still work because the definition he shows doesn’t just apply to females especially considering the fact that Beldam is the vile witch archetype, so of course she is gonna say things that relate to her being that, especially with people or things she sees as necessary to complete her goals. As for her calling Vivian out for stepping out of line is also not really accurate considering she was blaming Vivian for losing the drawing of Mario when it was her bad, not only setting her up as unreliable when it comes to Vivian’s usefulness to her team, but also the fact she gets heavily distracted on correcting the sisters parts shows just how much blame she puts on Vivian for the wrong reasons.
Also I feel like to stretched a bit on some parts to where they just sounded worse than they were which felt like you were stretching things, especially with how certain cutscenes.
So overall although Beldam is not outwardly transphobic, she still feels like she disrespects Vivian gender whether she knows it or not, and I feel that characters don’t need to be on the nose when it comes to conflicts that involve transphobia and the such, since not every case of it is on the nose, some are more subtle to where even that person doing it doesn’t know, (which could explain why she refers to Vivian as a she even after getting mad at the sisters thing) which makes more sense why she has a change at the end while still not presenting her as a good person to her before.
I have a lot to say in response to this. I apologize if it feels like it drags on, but it's difficult for me to not be verbose as this is something I feel very strongly about.
"Transphobic" is still the wrong word in my understanding of the situation. A much better argument can be made that Beldam is strict and dismissive. And it can still be argued that Vivian was in the wrong for derailing the introduction, it'd just mean both she and Beldam would be in the wrong since neither party wants to acquiesce to the other. However, that's still undermined by the fact that Beldam is the leader, and she isn't under any obligation to cater to the whims of her sisters anyway. Vivian still either way doesn't hesitate to chase after her "me first" mentality which is undeniably selfish. At that point, I legitimately cannot fathom how anyone can find her moment in Chapter 2 defensible outside of the fact that she's on Mario's team.
The ending would have been worse if Beldam was outwardly transphobic, I will agree to that. Even the English version was guilty of that in regard to Vivian's appearance. However, that matters a lot less in context of Vivian being a worse character in the remake. If anything, I'd argue the paradigm simply shifted where Vivian's now able to use her gender identity as leverage whenever she wants as it was never properly addressed where before Beldam would be the primary aggressor. I don't imagine Wonder Woman was very verbally in-your-face about being a woman (never watched the show in question, just making inferences), and if you want to talk about what's more realistic, it's significantly easier to believe someone is bigoted when they're the one who strikes first in regard to "what" someone is when the other party is literally only trying to exist. And Beldam's bullying earlier had no clear connection to hating Vivian for being a transgender woman. If anything, the remake should have either deviated further from the original and have Vivian just cut her sisters off entirely, or not treat the issue as black and white as it did and have both Beldam and Vivian come to terms with their respective faults. Otherwise, I cannot in good faith agree with your assertion here.
The "lovelies" bit early in Chapter 2 of my video... ironically, I actually received a comment from another user talking about how Beldam would call her group her "not-so-lovelies" when referring to Marilyn and Doopliss. And I don't know where they were going with that point, but it ironically reinforced what I said in the video because while Beldam called Marilyn and Vivian her lovelies as a pair of girls, she acknowledged the new split in genders with Marilyn being a "she" and Doopliss being a "he". But I otherwise don't really disagree that Beldam is an awful person. I don't however know how that translates to her hating Vivian for being transgender. And I'm not very quick to trust Beldam's word either, but you have to remember that as the player, we see more than Mario would. And for the purpose of the game's story, he really has no reason to distrust Beldam's lash out against Vivian at all. Of the little he's seen, there's literally nothing to suggest that Beldam was lying or even a bully to begin with. And Vivian's word alone should not be enough to convince Mario of that either during Chapter 4. If not for the fact that he needed all the help he could get, I don't think I'd want to entertain anything Vivian had to say for even a solid second. Which makes her feel more like a means to an end, and not a worthwhile partner to have around.
If I'm being quite honest, every defense I've seen be given for Vivian so far just reads as hypocritical. To think Beldam should have been better to her is entirely valid. But to do so while ignoring Vivian's very real problems does not read as being fair at all. And the fact there's even evidence of how Beldam's dialogue was cherry-picked to make her look worse only further cements my opinion on that.
11:01 That’s not chess notation! Chess notation is when you write out a move in text, for example moving a rook to the space e4 would be written as Re4. What you showed would be ChessCom move classification.
Great video regardless
You got me, lol. I'm not too well versed in Chess terminology. I appreciate the comment.
The ttyd remake dialogue changes makes me scared for any spm remake
I think Paper Mario on N64 would be the best bet for a game getting remade that wouldn't see its dialogue be neutered in any significant way tbh.
That's an interesting video, and I do agree with a lot of it (particularly how the internet tries to portray Beldam as this raging transphobic when theres almost nothing that reenforces this in-game).
@@ovite1240 To paraphrase another comment under this video: "Let villains be villains."
Yeaaaa even I thought they were way too strong with the whole sister thing, like if they calmed down in chapter 2 I wouldn’t even bat an eye at chapter 4 beyond a “oh cool”. Still love Vivian, and it really doesn’t affect my love for the game as a whole, but does seem waaaaay too far trying to correct something from the OG games. Great video honestly.
That's fine. The purpose of my video after all isn't to turn people off from having an opinion that favors Vivian. Just to try and communicate an argument for the other side. Appreciate your comment.
@PhantomAarantula totally get that, I’m pretty much with ya.
"Don't be satiated by a label, be satiated by its use." -Me
I'm in pain, y'all. This is my favorite video game of all time; I hate speaking ill of TTYD. Especially of Vivian. But the dark truth of the Shadow Witch Trials must be exposed.
No offense but the whole "lovelies is a female term" argument kinda falls apart when you go the the Shadow Sirens rematch and Beldam says "kind-of-lovelies" when referring to both Marylin and Doopliss lol (also saying that Beldam is in the right for getting mad at Vivian wanting to be called sister is WILD because the dialogue implies that Beldam outright refuses to call her as such at any times and if it's such an issue just change the dang team name instead of complaining about your sister wanted to be called as such)
But Doopliss is a boy. Kind-of-lovelies and Sort-of-lovelies acknowledges that since she's addressing both Doopliss and Marilyn. (I don't see "Not-So-Lovelies" be spoken by her at all). And I don't intend to offend, but your sentiment on Beldam being in the wrong for not just giving in to Vivian's wishes is fundamentally flawed. Beldam isn't under any obligation to just give into her sister's wishes, that's what can be adequately called "enabling".
@PhantomAarantula i misremembered Beldam's dialogue in the Shadow Palace, but my point is that she wouldn't have said lovelies in plural (even if she said kind-of at first) if she wasn't also referring to Doopliss when saying it. As for the sister thing, I don't really think that it would be enabling bad behaviour because, as I've said, Vivian's reaction implies that Beldam never calls her that at all, even when not doing the team presentation, and because it really isn't that serious for it to be "enabling", as she's pretty much just asking Beldam to call her her sister
I'm sorry, this is a bad point that you're trying to make. I have literally zero idea what you're trying to drive at by somehow claiming there's something wrong with Beldam calling Marilyn and Doopliss her sort-of or kind-of lovelies when they're definitively not both females. Marilyn is; Doopliss isn't. And the fact she didn't try using that terminology when Vivian was a part of her group and only ever addressed her and Marilyn as Lovelies is imho very decisive evidence against whatever point you're trying to argue here.
As far as the bit regarding enabling bad behavior, this is actually something I called out near the end of the video. So, if you wish to present the point that Beldam shouldn't be so dismissive over Vivian's feelings, I'd like for you to acknowledge the hypocrisy in shaming Beldam for that when Vivian actively refuses to acquiesce when it's implied that she accepted Beldam's logic as to why they're named what they are before, just to go behind her back during the one time where Mario can conceivably make sound judgments on the Sirens' relationships.
Trust me, I wouldn't go through the effort of making a video like this knowing the massive support group Vivian enjoys if I wasn't extremely confident in what I was saying. You're more than free to try and prove me wrong, but I already went through the trouble of trying to as much first.
Nice vid bro, and I have to say, a lot of things you pointed out are constantly happening in modern games, it's ridiculous.
People are so crazily obsessed with this gender nonsense and what pisses me off so much about it, is that you can make a good story with said themes without them being thrown at your face, believe it or not, like disco elysium for example.
And like you said, I don't care what Vivian is and Nintendo certainly does not either, they're just being as vague as possible to avoid any repercussions, everyone's so scared about this, walking on eggshells has become the norm.
I guarantee you that the people that are so preoccupied with what he is don't even play games and are just terminally online, farming virtue points. There is little interest in learning what an otokonoko is, for example, just a fatal obsession about how a fictional character identifies himself as, similar to guilty gear's bridget nonsense, so "one side" can "win" the narrative and forget about it two days later, I'm so sick of this. My man, I could not care less about what's inside my fictional character's pants, when did we go so wrong, that THIS has become so important nowadays. Jesus. Everything has become so neutered.
@Kamininha The internet for all the good it offers as far as ease of research and immediate access to information has done a lot of damage to individual people with these radicalized ideals where people are just absurdly polarized nowadays. Combine that with how much incentive there is to just tell people what they want you to say and being as brand friendly as possible to maximize how many people like you, it's depressing how honesty and being genuine is seen as less valuable than being likeable.
Thanks for your sentiment.
@@PhantomAarantula Thank you for replying and being polite.
To add to that, unfortunately it's so rare seeing people being able to have conversations like adults, like you just did, even if you agree or not with what I said. Subscribed, well done dude.
Honestly, I do have issues with Vivian's gender in the remake in ways I don't have issues with things like the character bios throwing pronouns at you in Beast Breaker. And there are ways I have issues with both, as someone who sometimes suffers from gender dysphoria (alongside other species of body dysmorphia) but also believes such identities are always false.
Vivian in the original Japanese version was explicitly an effeminate male, Vivian in the old English localization was simplified and made more relatable by being a female who is mistreated and bullied by her siblings. The political change to be transgender is an example of activism infiltrating the game industry. Making the character trans is a much bigger and more intentional change than making the character female, even though it technically leaves the character the same sex as the original.
And I of course agree with all your points of the writing being poorly handled. Doesn't matter if you genuinely believe that a brain can have a "correct" internal identity completely at odds with the rest of the person's existence at a cellular level like some of my friends, or believe as I do that objective reality trumps any feelings or insecurities you may have or any turmoil and mental illness you may suffer from. The writing is sloppy and limp-wristed either way.
@@RoninCatholic Damn straight. I actually love the idea of Vivian being an effeminate man because I think validating boys with interests that have interests considered out of line with their gender opposes harmful stereotypes like girls can't enjoy sports or boys can't pursue practices like ballet.
Except she literally was a trans girl in the original version too? No offense but I feel like a guy wouldn't start frowning and being about to cry if their sister called them a guy. Also as far as I know Vivian doesn't refer to herself as a boy even once through the entire OG Japanese version, which basically determines a person's gender identity is since it's literally based on how the person feels
@@Roman-ik3cf "Trans in the original too" is historical revisionism. The term used in the original Japanese version describes a man with some feminine presentation, possibly including but not limited to cross dressing.
This is like when people claim Samus is trans because one of the staffers for a game made a one-off joke about being a "Newhalf" once. It doesn't actually mean the same thing.
Transgenderism is actually an ALMOST exclusively American thing, making some sense as it was invented in the mid 20th century by a pedophile as an excuse to molest children. Knowing the history doesn't make my own identity struggles easier.
@@PhantomAarantulathe fact you agree with someone who says trans identities are false is disgusting you should be ashamed of yourself
@@flamingsword2548you should go talk with people irl more, it's important.
Whatever your opinion, stand, fight. You may be in the court of public opinion, but you're your own judge, jury, and executioner.
Chat Man ahh comment, lol
tfw ctrl-c and ctrl-v
There’s so many things I could pick apart here out of pure frustration, but arguing is tiring and not particularly fun, so instead you get an annoyed comment
I hope your future videos go well
more people need to see this video, the writting of the remake is super flawed. I kept telling others a simmilar story like that Vivian telling Mario "the Trans line" is quite forced but they made fun of me by being called "Transpobic Beldam Agent who denies objectevely better story" I am not making this up.
@volvoman5262 I believe you. But I'm sadly not very skilled at reaching lots of people when making videos so unless someone prominent wants to give it more attention, I'm afraid nothing will really change.
@PhantomAarantula would you be fine if I linked your video on Paper Mario subreddit?
@@volvoman5262 I've accepted the risks that would come with making this video months ago. If you wish to share it, you have my permission. But knowing Reddit, I do not imagine it will go far.
"WOKE!!!"
Second
Spectacular.
As a member of the trans community god this video pissed me off I would love to tear it to shreds
Maybe I will
For example you apparently didn't know this but it makes us happy to have our identities validated that's why Vivian says it would make her happy for Beldum to call her a sister because as a member of the trans community it fills us with dopamine and makes us happy it's not sappy either like you claim because it's just asking for basic respect
It's not defiance its asking someone to use the right labels to make her happy
Also I find you saying Vivian's identity doesn't matter kinda gross tbh these characters affect people I have heard stories about people discovering they are trans themselves after being introduced to Vivian shouldn't you be happy for us?
Also the violation of show don't tell thing is incredibly stupid don't you understand how much a big moment this is? That nintendo has confirmed a character is trans we needed confirmation even birdo didn't get solid confirmation like this it's incredibly rare