There's just too many options for D&D clones but Castles & Crusades came first, has very good presentation, and was so ahead of its time that newer games borrowed from it. C&C should be the first place to look for someone wanting to play a GOOD edition of "D&D"
@undeadbynight Possibly. I never really liked the mechanics of any edition of dnd, so I never paid much attention to the game. But I actively started despising WotC/Hasbro when they started using hired goons to harrass and intimidate innocent people.
I left D&D behind in 1987-never looked back. I have tried dozens of systems (I collect starter sets) I’m always ready to try new things though Runequest will ALWAYS be my jam
I had Runequest back in the 80s, along with the other Avalon Hill game, Powers & Perils... I figured out then how to play that, yet never did figure out Runequest! I now have the starter set and a few other books, I need to go through them. It certainly has a somewhat unique flavor to it.
I played Runequest even before I started with D&D. But my friends didn't like it - they enjoyed Call of Cthulhu later and even praised its system. And I was like "What?"
My problem isn't finding "the best" game - it's the "good enough" or "#2" that we can't agree on. In the past, that was held by 5e. We have players who would pick Dragonbane or others who would want Pathfinder 2e. But everyone could agree on 5e as a "second choice." Other systems such as Cthulhu or Castles and Crusades end up being just too polarizing
@@DrWaites that’s a pity. My group have played over a dozen different RPGs in 2 years. Some like All Flesh Must Be Eaten were one shots whereas Blades in the Dark was a campaign
@@DoctorTopper some of my players feel "underpowered" in C&C compared to 5e or Pathfinder 2. It's basically the same complaint they have about any OSR game.
Dungeons & Dragons will always be there as long as there are players. It is the players that breathe life into the games; not some corrupt toy company.
Been playing d&d for 32 years based on basic and advanced and years of just making stuff up. Everytime I buy another game I think Iv wasted my money. Stick with osr and build the game up yourself. WOTC no d&d yes. Ps my first Rpg was dragon warriors.
The basic problem is that game stores still need the money too and most of their RPG money comes from D&D. It is where you get most in store gaming - meaning casual gamers almost exclusively play D&D.
Most game stores' RPG profits, which aren't massive, are mainly from D&D because all they bother to stock is D&D. Check out a game store which actually carries Paizo, Chaosium Inc, Mongoose, etc and you'll find the buying dollars are spread out in those stores. ~ Jeff
"Castles & Crusades" is easier than D&D and came before Pathfinder and unlike OSR it LOOKS and plays like a shiny NEW game. But its compatible with both OSR and post wotc editions. Its the game i think people want and expect D&D to be. It had attribute based saves before 5e did.
@Thegaminggang i just felt like bringing it up in the comments. Some people are overwhelmed by choices or turned off by "oldness" of OSR style. I just think C&C is the obvious stand-in for "new D&D"
I got into TTRPGs with D&D 3.5e, followed by Pathfinder 1e. Didn't touch 4e or much of 5e, mainly picked up GURPS/Dungeon Fantasy books and it wasn't until recently that started to pick up OSR stuff. I see myself introducing people to OSR with Dragonslayer and if they want more I'll use ACKSII.
D&D started declining with 2nd edition AD&D. It’s the same reason that Warhammer 40k has been declining. When the company makes the corporate decision to market to kids, the books have to be palatable to Karen because she’s the purchaser. There’s a difference between something that kids will think is cool, and something that Karen will flip through and approve of for her offspring. If you want to market to kids you have to market to the soccer moms who ultimately detest your subject matter.
For quite a few years i have taken a pick and choose approach to gaming. Rules haven't been so much a priority since i have plenty of those. My main interest in official product is setting & adventures. Take what i like and leave the rest. And have to admit haven't really found much i like in d&d in that regard last few years. Like other companies stuff a lot better the more i explore.
The Ulisses Spiele thing is weird. They acquired acquired one of my favorite games, Fading Suns, but seemed to do very little with it. There was a sort of meta-plot in Fading Suns, too; the War in Heaven. Two of three volumes came out covering it in the 2nd Ed. 25 years and two editions later, and as far as I know, there's no third volume to finish that off and finally reveal the "truth" behind one of the major elements of the setting. Obviously, I can do my own thing. And when I ran Fading Suns in the late 90s/early 2000s, that's exactly what I did. But I wanted that bloody third volume. Man, I LOVED Space Raiders when I was a kid. But that movie is absolute garbage. I hadn't seen Battle Beyond the Stars at the time, or any of the like 10 or 12 other Roger Corman movies that used those effects shots. I think it's always a good time to leave D&D and WotC behind, but you know me. It's never been my thing. It was never my game. I didn't start with it, and I've never enjoyed playing it when folks have roped me in to trying it. I've never found its game mechanics to be anything but frustrating, even going back to BECMI. I so much prefer D100/% systems. And hell, I prefer a lot of dice pool systems (D6, Year Zero, etc.). And yeah. I'd much rather support a lot of other companies than WotC. Companies that actually care about their product and their customers. Really hoping I can run some Dragonbane in the next year. We'll see.
Regarding Fading Suns, they recently stated during their convention that Fading Suns is currently in the works for a new edition, since the previous one was not well received. Bill Bridges is currently working on it. No word yet on when it may become available, but they specifically said that all setting content released thus far will remain relevant.
Ulisses is a german company, publishing Germanies most popular RPG, The Dark Eye (maybe you know their system from the CRPGs Star Trail and Blade of Destiny, the system was called Realms of Arcania). I am not sure about their plans with Fading Suns though. But their emphasis is on the german market. Funfact about Ulisses and the Dark Eye: Back in the 80s, the creators of The Dark Eye were the same crew which translated the BECMI boxes and 1e into German. About 30 years later, Ulisses was involved in the distribution of 5e and did the German edition Pathfinder ;) history repeats itself...
I can't recommend any fantasy system as I'm not really a fantasy guy. Started in the 90s with Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd edition and have played predominantly horror and sci-fi games since. My only real exposure to D&D is via videogames. If I was to play a fantasy game, I think it would have to be a non-D20 system. Playing Balder's Gate 3 has cemented my dislike of D20. It's so swingy!
Did you review ACKS? I can only find first looks/page throughs. As far as "behind" it's hard to say that since many of the games I wind up collecting or studying wind up taking a lot from the game, so I could see myself running a stripped down, largely from memory version of the game. Brand managers might not approve of my choices but I'd still be inhabiting a lot of that game's space. They have the open license stuff out there which is runnable if a bit rough to use like any SRD is. The crux of it is for me: If someone ASKS me to run D&D and they haven't played it before, I'll have to ask what they want out of it, and what they've heard. Like, did they hear about it through the grapevine from people who played it in the 80s? Do they watch Critical Role primarily? Did they read Dragonlance as a kid? Magical YA novels? Computer RPGs? All of those might suggest different experiences that would need different rulesets to approach that feel. My default is a basic NSR/OSR, Traveller, or something similar because you can build from basic structures to make the game your own. As far as me being a loyal consumer and buying brand name stuff, they put out stuff I may or may not get for aesthetics, but I don't feel beholden to that company and I haven't for a long time
@@kevinthorpe8561 Adventurer Conqueror King System, sort of a Basic D&D retroclone with a somewhat middle-eastern/oriental setting, incorporating many aspects of domain play (late expert and companion levels that is). The setting looks interesting, but the guy behind it seems to be into politics for a few years. There is an upcoming 2nd Edition of ACKS afaik.
Played 5e back in 2014. Got bored of it within a year or two. Tasha's signaled the end for me and i sold all my 5e books. I've been looking at online auctions to complete my 3.5e and Pathfinder collections too. I think i now own about 30 different RPGs with more on the way.
Also breaking away from WotC and can still play "D&D". Tales of the Valiant and Level Up Advanced 5e work perfectly well with existing 5e material. Barring that, there are so many fantasy games and D&D clones out there it's ridiculous. No one needs to play WotC 5.5 if they honestly want to move on.
People who have invested a ton into 5e have to realize how easy it is to convert materials, monsters and stats between systems. You can use the fluff of your books just fine, I do it all the time with my 4e stuff. Maybe you'll lose the Tasha and Xanathar's books. The rest, all usable.
I play 5e with friends. But I live in Brazil... 99% who play it here pirated the books. And the fan translation is 100% better than the official one. I hate the company today and their politics, but the 5e (the old one) is a amazing game.
Basic Roleplaying Universal Game Engine contains a fantasy element. It also contains rules for other time periods. It was released by Chaosium. However, despite what it is said about the compatibility with Call of Cthulhu rules. I am in disagreement about this claim. You will have to put in the work to make that possible.
intersectionality and inclusion are an important thing though. I do not like the path WotC has taken, but I think it is important not to exclude/gatekeep people. there is no agenda behind this btw
@@n.ludemann9199 intersectionality, inclusion, and gatekeeping? 🤮 How about we all decide what we do and dont want at our table. I dont need anyone telling me how to do anything or how to feel about it or how to see it. Its insulting and is done by the worst of people who just want to virtue signal. I wont be apart of it.
@@n.ludemann9199intersectionality is poison that divides friends and makes them enemies based on race, gender and religion. If you spend your life looking for hatred and bigotory, sure you'll find some somewhere, have fun. Alternatively you could be kind and just treat everybody nicely.
D&D is baby's first TTRPG. Personally I feel D&D is not a fun game. I don't care for the class based systems, I don't care for the culture around D&D, I really don't care for the caretakers of the IP either. This is probably going to draw fire but I honestly don't care for Gygax's view of fantasy. I stepped away from wotc games in general four years ago. I have sold most of my D&D books and quite frankly if I never play it again oh well. I moved to Traveller and exploring other games that don't have the baggage involved with D&D. At this point I actually want nothing to do with wotc and Dungeons and Dragons. Plenty of companies and games out there that are more worthy of my time and money.
Dungeon Crawl Classics and Old School Essentials are all I use nowadays. (I started playing D&D back in 1983)
Great choices!
@@PaintingOnTheCeiling not exactly my thing but my friend who plays in a DCC game has told me all about the cool mechanics especially in magic
DCC is my go to for old school vibe fantasy toleplay. I still play modern systems from time to time, but not WotC stuff.
As a GM I left WOTC behind 2.5 years ago before the OGL BS. I switched to GMing Castles & Crusades and I feel like I am playing D&D again.
There's just too many options for D&D clones but Castles & Crusades came first, has very good presentation, and was so ahead of its time that newer games borrowed from it. C&C should be the first place to look for someone wanting to play a GOOD edition of "D&D"
@@DoctorTopper C&C is my favorite version of "D&D".
No. It was time almost 2 years ago.
@@lasselippert3892 pretty sure the right time was like 2010 or so.
@undeadbynight Possibly. I never really liked the mechanics of any edition of dnd, so I never paid much attention to the game. But I actively started despising WotC/Hasbro when they started using hired goons to harrass and intimidate innocent people.
I left D&D behind in 1987-never looked back. I have tried dozens of systems (I collect starter sets) I’m always ready to try new things though Runequest will ALWAYS be my jam
And a great jam it is!
Runequest is also my jam!
I had Runequest back in the 80s, along with the other Avalon Hill game, Powers & Perils... I figured out then how to play that, yet never did figure out Runequest! I now have the starter set and a few other books, I need to go through them. It certainly has a somewhat unique flavor to it.
I played Runequest even before I started with D&D. But my friends didn't like it - they enjoyed Call of Cthulhu later and even praised its system. And I was like "What?"
My problem isn't finding "the best" game - it's the "good enough" or "#2" that we can't agree on. In the past, that was held by 5e. We have players who would pick Dragonbane or others who would want Pathfinder 2e. But everyone could agree on 5e as a "second choice."
Other systems such as Cthulhu or Castles and Crusades end up being just too polarizing
I run two gaming groups. Both would break up, if I pushed 5ed. Different games for different people.
@@DrWaites that’s a pity. My group have played over a dozen different RPGs in 2 years. Some like All Flesh Must Be Eaten were one shots whereas Blades in the Dark was a campaign
I'm curious why is Castles & Crusades polarizing? I say give it another look, it just looks like an obvious choice for "D&D".
@@DoctorTopper some of my players feel "underpowered" in C&C compared to 5e or Pathfinder 2. It's basically the same complaint they have about any OSR game.
@DrWaites I guess I was wrong because I thought it would be a good enough compromise stronger than OSR but not 5e.
Dungeons & Dragons will always be there as long as there are players. It is the players that breathe life into the games; not some corrupt toy company.
Other fantasy games outside D&D:
The One Ring
Fantasy Age
Numenera
Spire
Dragonbane
Palladium fantasy
Black Hack
Burning Wheel
Soooo many!
@@RolRapid no Castles and Crusades? You should give it a look at if you haven't.
Mythras
Against the darkmaster.
@@wilmartinez1Sure, but it was already mentioned.
@@RolRapid Runequest, Dragon Warriors, Basic Fantasy, GURPs etc
What about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay?
Been playing d&d for 32 years based on basic and advanced and years of just making stuff up. Everytime I buy another game I think Iv wasted my money. Stick with osr and build the game up yourself. WOTC no d&d yes. Ps my first Rpg was dragon warriors.
@@YorkshireMatt Dragon Warriors I have not played that in forever bloody cool game
@kevinthorpe8561 whatever happened to Knights with wings on there helmet 😁
I bet those Castleberry barbecue sandwiches were off the chain. Simple but perfect.
What's the deep lore and dislike for steve jackson games?
If you like D&D, then play D&D. And try out some other games if you want to. Simple :)
The basic problem is that game stores still need the money too and most of their RPG money comes from D&D. It is where you get most in store gaming - meaning casual gamers almost exclusively play D&D.
Most game stores' RPG profits, which aren't massive, are mainly from D&D because all they bother to stock is D&D. Check out a game store which actually carries Paizo, Chaosium Inc, Mongoose, etc and you'll find the buying dollars are spread out in those stores. ~ Jeff
"Castles & Crusades" is easier than D&D and came before Pathfinder and unlike OSR it LOOKS and plays like a shiny NEW game. But its compatible with both OSR and post wotc editions. Its the game i think people want and expect D&D to be. It had attribute based saves before 5e did.
We talk about C&C all the time!
@Thegaminggang i just felt like bringing it up in the comments. Some people are overwhelmed by choices or turned off by "oldness" of OSR style. I just think C&C is the obvious stand-in for "new D&D"
I got into TTRPGs with D&D 3.5e, followed by Pathfinder 1e. Didn't touch 4e or much of 5e, mainly picked up GURPS/Dungeon Fantasy books and it wasn't until recently that started to pick up OSR stuff. I see myself introducing people to OSR with Dragonslayer and if they want more I'll use ACKSII.
Deadlands is awesome!
D&D started declining with 2nd edition AD&D. It’s the same reason that Warhammer 40k has been declining. When the company makes the corporate decision to market to kids, the books have to be palatable to Karen because she’s the purchaser.
There’s a difference between something that kids will think is cool, and something that Karen will flip through and approve of for her offspring. If you want to market to kids you have to market to the soccer moms who ultimately detest your subject matter.
For quite a few years i have taken a pick and choose approach to gaming. Rules haven't been so much a priority since i have plenty of those. My main interest in official product is setting & adventures. Take what i like and leave the rest. And have to admit haven't really found much i like in d&d in that regard last few years. Like other companies stuff a lot better the more i explore.
The Ulisses Spiele thing is weird. They acquired acquired one of my favorite games, Fading Suns, but seemed to do very little with it. There was a sort of meta-plot in Fading Suns, too; the War in Heaven. Two of three volumes came out covering it in the 2nd Ed. 25 years and two editions later, and as far as I know, there's no third volume to finish that off and finally reveal the "truth" behind one of the major elements of the setting. Obviously, I can do my own thing. And when I ran Fading Suns in the late 90s/early 2000s, that's exactly what I did. But I wanted that bloody third volume.
Man, I LOVED Space Raiders when I was a kid. But that movie is absolute garbage. I hadn't seen Battle Beyond the Stars at the time, or any of the like 10 or 12 other Roger Corman movies that used those effects shots.
I think it's always a good time to leave D&D and WotC behind, but you know me. It's never been my thing. It was never my game. I didn't start with it, and I've never enjoyed playing it when folks have roped me in to trying it. I've never found its game mechanics to be anything but frustrating, even going back to BECMI. I so much prefer D100/% systems. And hell, I prefer a lot of dice pool systems (D6, Year Zero, etc.). And yeah. I'd much rather support a lot of other companies than WotC. Companies that actually care about their product and their customers.
Really hoping I can run some Dragonbane in the next year. We'll see.
Regarding Fading Suns, they recently stated during their convention that Fading Suns is currently in the works for a new edition, since the previous one was not well received. Bill Bridges is currently working on it. No word yet on when it may become available, but they specifically said that all setting content released thus far will remain relevant.
Ulisses is a german company, publishing Germanies most popular RPG, The Dark Eye (maybe you know their system from the CRPGs Star Trail and Blade of Destiny, the system was called Realms of Arcania). I am not sure about their plans with Fading Suns though. But their emphasis is on the german market.
Funfact about Ulisses and the Dark Eye: Back in the 80s, the creators of The Dark Eye were the same crew which translated the BECMI boxes and 1e into German. About 30 years later, Ulisses was involved in the distribution of 5e and did the German edition Pathfinder ;) history repeats itself...
We are playing Oe atm (plus 3 supplements), but I have been thinking about using Iron Falcon or Swords & Wizardry in the future.
I can't recommend any fantasy system as I'm not really a fantasy guy.
Started in the 90s with Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd edition and have played predominantly horror and sci-fi games since.
My only real exposure to D&D is via videogames.
If I was to play a fantasy game, I think it would have to be a non-D20 system. Playing Balder's Gate 3 has cemented my dislike of D20. It's so swingy!
Amen it is a new edition.
Yes, yes it is.
Is it time? Done that. Past tense. Years ago.
Did you review ACKS? I can only find first looks/page throughs. As far as "behind" it's hard to say that since many of the games I wind up collecting or studying wind up taking a lot from the game, so I could see myself running a stripped down, largely from memory version of the game. Brand managers might not approve of my choices but I'd still be inhabiting a lot of that game's space. They have the open license stuff out there which is runnable if a bit rough to use like any SRD is.
The crux of it is for me: If someone ASKS me to run D&D and they haven't played it before, I'll have to ask what they want out of it, and what they've heard. Like, did they hear about it through the grapevine from people who played it in the 80s? Do they watch Critical Role primarily? Did they read Dragonlance as a kid? Magical YA novels? Computer RPGs? All of those might suggest different experiences that would need different rulesets to approach that feel. My default is a basic NSR/OSR, Traveller, or something similar because you can build from basic structures to make the game your own. As far as me being a loyal consumer and buying brand name stuff, they put out stuff I may or may not get for aesthetics, but I don't feel beholden to that company and I haven't for a long time
Big fan of ACKs
@@primafacie5029 ACKS?? What’s that?
@@kevinthorpe8561 Adventurer Conqueror King System, sort of a Basic D&D retroclone with a somewhat middle-eastern/oriental setting, incorporating many aspects of domain play (late expert and companion levels that is). The setting looks interesting, but the guy behind it seems to be into politics for a few years. There is an upcoming 2nd Edition of ACKS afaik.
DND is outdated, but still super fun! Looking to switch to Draw Steel soon. :)
Played 5e back in 2014. Got bored of it within a year or two. Tasha's signaled the end for me and i sold all my 5e books. I've been looking at online auctions to complete my 3.5e and Pathfinder collections too. I think i now own about 30 different RPGs with more on the way.
Im gonna try the index card rpg, and am super stoked for the new discworld ttrpg
Also breaking away from WotC and can still play "D&D". Tales of the Valiant and Level Up Advanced 5e work perfectly well with existing 5e material.
Barring that, there are so many fantasy games and D&D clones out there it's ridiculous. No one needs to play WotC 5.5 if they honestly want to move on.
People who have invested a ton into 5e have to realize how easy it is to convert materials, monsters and stats between systems. You can use the fluff of your books just fine, I do it all the time with my 4e stuff. Maybe you'll lose the Tasha and Xanathar's books. The rest, all usable.
Free League welcomes all. Let's play some Dragonbane!
I play 5e with friends. But I live in Brazil... 99% who play it here pirated the books. And the fan translation is 100% better than the official one. I hate the company today and their politics, but the 5e (the old one) is a amazing game.
The shape of that spaceship.. lol
Basic Roleplaying Universal Game Engine contains a fantasy element. It also contains rules for other time periods. It was released by Chaosium. However, despite what it is said about the compatibility with Call of Cthulhu rules. I am in disagreement about this claim. You will have to put in the work to make that possible.
ShadowDark rocks, flawless change from 5e. WotC woke ways is gross 🤮🤮🤮
intersectionality and inclusion are an important thing though. I do not like the path WotC has taken, but I think it is important not to exclude/gatekeep people. there is no agenda behind this btw
@@n.ludemann9199 intersectionality, inclusion, and gatekeeping? 🤮 How about we all decide what we do and dont want at our table. I dont need anyone telling me how to do anything or how to feel about it or how to see it. Its insulting and is done by the worst of people who just want to virtue signal. I wont be apart of it.
@@n.ludemann9199intersectionality is poison that divides friends and makes them enemies based on race, gender and religion. If you spend your life looking for hatred and bigotory, sure you'll find some somewhere, have fun. Alternatively you could be kind and just treat everybody nicely.
I play a lot of games, D&D is good, as are other games. Also, definitely play Warhammer (RPG & minis).
Warlock! Is a sort of OSR version of WHFRP. Can recommend.
D&D is baby's first TTRPG. Personally I feel D&D is not a fun game. I don't care for the class based systems, I don't care for the culture around D&D, I really don't care for the caretakers of the IP either. This is probably going to draw fire but I honestly don't care for Gygax's view of fantasy. I stepped away from wotc games in general four years ago. I have sold most of my D&D books and quite frankly if I never play it again oh well. I moved to Traveller and exploring other games that don't have the baggage involved with D&D. At this point I actually want nothing to do with wotc and Dungeons and Dragons. Plenty of companies and games out there that are more worthy of my time and money.
Not gonna play 5.5E but sure as hell aint gonna play indie kickstarter rpg 5E clone.
Still a ton of options.