The Fallacy of "Replay Value" | Extra Punctuation
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2023
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There is no middle finger big enough.
Octodad you plonker
Just to balance this, I used to play a lot of War Thunder and I recommend never ever play War Thunder. Unless you have a time machine. It used to be good and now languishes in a meta game of slow progress pushing microtransactions.
Also it's Russian.
salt the snail
Something, something wart-under.
Yahtzee treating a sponsor like an intruder is just completely on brand for him.
It's on brand for war thunder too because after all the negative press they made for themselves, they're definitely not wanted.
I'll excuse the placement of the ad. This is EP, not ZP. They gotta make their $. It's the 2nd at the end that made my eye twitch.
On the other hand, if Yahtzee wants to put an ad in ZP, it better be read at the same speed as his review and be open to critique.
Just wish the sponsor was a game publisher that cares about their game even the slightest. Can't win them all, I guess.
@@suturesunder3465I'm out of the loop, what bad press did they got?
I imagine that this is actually the third or fourth draft of the joke because Yahtzee's first few were rejected because they were too "mean"
I love how Yahtzee is obviously not allowed to trash on the sponsor yet we all hear it loud and clear.
I don't watch these often so the sponsor insert in the middle surprised me. Then it was half the length of the video. I guess it is a relatively new thing he is having to deal with and knows how long it is going to be. Can you blame him?
@@_ninjas555 Him, no, the people managing the channel, yes. They already have the membership thing, they have a patreon, I'm fairly certain they have normal ads on there as well. It feels as bit desperate, especially with Yahtzee being the only real draw they have and they bloody well know it.
@@Some_Really_Random_Dude. Ehh. Ice has been a bit of a draw recently too, with his Cold Take series. But yeah, view wise the channel is pretty carried by the two of them, with Yahtzee carrying the heavier portion of the load.
I also like that all the comments on the matter have hundreds, even thousands of likes and at the time I write this their pinned sponsor ad has 31
I wonder how hard one CAN passively-aggresively be visibly annoyed by the sponsor before the sponsor takes issue with it. I think Yahtzee's playing it a little too safe here, he could ramp up the subtle mockery a bit more
Honestly I thought the war thunder thing would be a gag
It is basically, it’s making me reconsider coming back to watch these again after the first time, and it’ll eventually just make me exhausted having to wait for the next half. This shit might actually ruin Yahtzee’s great existing format for me.
tbh given the way in which the video discussed multiplayer games it basically was
But alas...
@@SuicideforDummies101 So, this video does not have replay value to you?
@@SuicideforDummies101 Consider the browser addon "sponsor block". It automatically flags and skips sponsored portions of videos, to the point I didn't even notice there *were* sponsors here till I checked the comments.
I think Yahtzee is the first person Ive seen on UA-cam who sounds like he finds the ad break as annoying as we all do
He gets paid to be on the channel, the channel gets paid by the sponsor, yahtzee truly could not care less.
Caddicarus frequently openly derides his sponsors, and forces them to be part of a mad sketch read by a sentient kite. A highlight is when he says he'd rather not have ever heard of Raid Shadow Legends, whilst halfway through an advert for said game.
ever heard of sovietwomble ?
I like what Caddy does with “Spons”
Some More News kinda has that vibe as well
I can see the meetings where Yahtzee refuses to voice any commercials and I love him for that
For some reason there is an ad in the middle of the video. Starts at 3:29 and ends at 4:22 for anyone who might prefer to skip it.
Thank you kind stranger
i love how even yahtzee seems deeply inconvenienced by it
The some reason is: paying the freaking bills, that's the reason, just wait it's like what? 1 minute? He even made the joke at the start of the video about not watching the review, "it's just 5 minutes"
@@kr4ftt i could wait one minute. or i could click the timestamp and just not do that at absolutely no cost.
@@plastic4872 then you missed the point of, I don't know, helping the f**ng creators of the content you are watching right now? It's one f**ng minute dude, you are not going to compose the anthem of a generation anyway
Good grief, now advertisements are popping in between the content.
Still, solid stuff on the vid. A fair point made.
Yeah. Everyone's a sellout, even Yahtzee. At least he sells out begrudgingly.
Making a living isnt selling out lol. Seeing the views the Escapist gets, its a miracle they lasted this long without sponsors and stuff. Maybe VC funding? But yeah I'm glad they're moving on to a more dependable source of income.
Can't recommend Sponsorblock highly enough, addon that just jumps over all integrated ads.
Wow, they've found an even more annoying way to get the sponsor message across. Do us a favour, chaps, stick it at the beginning or the end, but not the middle. Mr Croshaw deserves better than this.
It was the middle *and* the end this time.
just press "L" three times when the sponsorship starts to skip most of it
M surprised UA-cam allow this. If you pay for premium to avoid adds I imagine you will still see these, reducing the value of the offering
@@beady0081 I have Premium, and I pay for it precisely because I hate ads. I've been seeing more of this recently, a share of what I and other Premium users are paying should be going to Escapist so they don't have to resort to stuff like this. I get that they need to keep the lights on, but UA-cam and by extension Google must be paying an absolute pittance. I love Yahtzee, but this just makes me feel sorry for him a bit.
@@dangittens41 It's not down to YT/Google actually. GAMURS group (The Escapist's publisher) has recently went through a wave of downsizing, including replacing staff with AI lol. They are 100% pushing their publications (seen here, though also notably increased on Destructoid) to increase profits or risk getting themselves cut.
I feel like this episode, in a cruel irony, will be the hardest EP to rewatch because the ad smashed in the middle is only a funny joke once, and after that it is just an intrusion.
Just like the ad
I've replayed Batman: Arkham Knight at least a dozen times, in spite of the fact that I know every single story beat and bit of trivia by heart. Every playthrough was the same, I only replayed it so many times because the moment-to-moment gameplay was just so phenomenal. The bit about "confusing replay value for unique playthroughs" really hit home for me
Samesies, the Arkham series in total is so replayable for me, rocksteady nailed the cathartic and approachable combat, the solid Batman stories and EXCELLENT world, and the progression systems are perfectly smooth and enjoyable.
*Cries in Kill the Justice League*
This is how I experienced FF7.
To no great shock, it's the first game I got for the first console I purchased with my own money. And, while I can't give an accurate number of plays, I've completed it a few dozen times by now. To a lesser degree, the same is true of the wider compilation works.
So, I have that same "living walk through, strategy guide, lore expert" thing going on-just for a different game.
As odd and no-life as that can come off, I've made an enjoyable hobby out of deep diving the things that interest me the most in the same way.
Same with both Arkham Knight and Insomniac Spider-Man. They're just so satisfying
@@thechevyferrari9559 How many play-throughs would you say it takes for someone with no outside knowledge to find all the 'story elements' in Arkham Knight? Does it have a 'completion tracker' like FF:10?
I'm much the same with my old favourites - Fallout Fire Emblem (so, so many of them), Monster Hunters, Mega Man X, Skyrim, Terraria, etc.
Remember back in the day, when Yahtzee developed 12 games in 12 months? I kinda wish he'd try that again... it was informative, entertaining and fun to be a part of.
Wasnt that only like 2 years ago?
@@tmsplltrs yeah it wasn't that long ago for sure
His gamedev time is probably currently tied up with Starstruck Vagabond, once he finishes that I’m sure he’ll put the spare time into some new game dev aspirations
Again, but in a funny west country accent
In my opinion I prefer these mainly because they’re more accessible and he can have a wider range of things to talk about. I used to watch the dev log series but I dropped out two thirds of the way through lack of interest. While this series I tune in every two weeks because he always has had something interesting to say and over different things like his actual videos or his reputation.
"at heart" *pulls a heart out of inventory* well done, editors
One thing I'd like to add is that some story-centric experiences can absolutely benefit from multiple "playthroughs" by having effective subtext. The absolute best example I can think is actually a film: "The Prestige" (2006) is about a magician trying to figure out the secret behind his rival's signature trick, and going down increasingly-dark paths in the process. The thing is, this secret isn't even revealed to the audience until the very end of the film - but it's effectively hinted at throughout the ENTIRE movie, through various subtexts, clues, and little things that don't add up or make sense.
What's great is that once you know the secret, the entire movie feels completely different! Scenes that don't make a lick of sense on the initial viewing suddenly have a very understandable (and oftentimes more dramatic) subtext to them - one which is pretty much impossible to understand until AFTER you've seen the film once already. It's the only film I recommend everybody see not once, but twice; because there's so much more to unpack that you just can't understand until you know that key secret behind what's going on.
And, obviously, it achieves all of this without any novelties or changes in between "playthroughs". It's a movie. It doesn't change. But, through effective storytelling and subtlety, it greatly benefits with multiple runs solely because on the second run, you know WHY things are happening, and how. I'd love to see similar stories told more often in media (games included), because the effect is absolutely brilliant.
Same with The Sixth Sense, Shawshank Redemption, all Christopher Nolan movies like Inception and ofcourse Hitchcock movies.
Hot Fuzz is another great movie that does this, both in service of the plot and the comedy. On one hand you have the central twist, which once you know it recontextualizes both every murder and also little bits with the antagonists. On the other hand there's tons of little bits throughout the movie that aren't even necessarily immediately funny (though many are), until they're referenced again later in the film with a new twist on them that re-contextualizes the original bit, giving you an "Ah-HA!" moment with at least a deserved chuckle. The most obvious example of this being the "Fascist!"-"Hag!" exchange. These little bits both comedy and plot-wise make the film infinitely re-watchable because you're always picking up on something new with every rewatch, even if you've seen the movie like 20 times like I have. It's just another reason it's the best film of all time in my honest opinion.
When I replayed Disco Elysium I did with the opposite build, the first time I went for smart and dexterous, and the second time I went emotional and strong, I knew the story, I knew all the quests, and yet I had a different experience, crafting a game to do that requires a level of mastery (or insanity) not reachable or cared about for many studios, so they take the "easy route", thinking that it'll do something for those who are not already married to the game
Stuff like Disco Elysium, Pillars of Eternity, and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous definitely pull off the "replay value through player choice affecting the story" route of replay value, but the thing with all of those is they are ridiculously good games already on the first playthrough. Or well, honestly Pathfinder flip-flops between masterpiece and a piece of something else a lot of the time, but you know.
This. Games with a focus on characters, RPG or not, usually achieve this. In Disco Elysium we are discovering as much about Harry as about the world/plot/mystery. While the world and murder case are still the same in a second run, Harry is different and we are technically experiencing very new things.
@@yidingliu8663 Definitely. Character customisation and having a reactive world where said customisation is more than just which style of combat you want can really enhance a second playthrough. It's like trying the other parts of the buffet, as opposed to ordering the same meal but eating with different cutlery. Immersive Sims are very good at this.
Same here. But Disco Elysium is meant to be a full experience on a single playthrough.
I am also currently replaying Disco Elysium, both out of sheer enjoyment of the game AND for the new experience, it really does repeat plays well. I plan to play through at least four times, one with each political ideology and also devoted to a specific set of attributes. Games that encourage a certain level of roleplaying really have this effect.
I hope these middling sponsors aren't going to be a thing in the future. Just keep it at the start or (preferably) the end. If these publishers are deliberately telling them that their sponsor HAS to blatantly interrupt the video, then that's transparent greed at its finest.
It will lead to everyone installing Sponsorblock mods.
As the previous commenter said, get sponsorblock and just skip them in one click (or set it to auto skip those segments)
I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt and presume that it's a necessary evil for keeping the production in the black. I don't know the first thing about Escapist's financial circumstances but I do know that content creators across the board have seen dramatic reductions in YT ad revenue over the years, and support from Patreon may not be enough to make up the difference. They have employees to pay, and money doesn't grow on trees.
If their priority was to get rich, there are much easier ways to go about it.
@@immediateegret2120 Creators should move away from the ad-infested featureless crap platform that UA-cam has been turned into under the parasitic management from the lazy monopolist that Google is.
@@immediateegret2120 exactly
Replaying a game you like a few years after you originally beat it is like rewatching a movie you loved in the same way. You know what you're in for and yet you might have forgotten some things that make you fall in love with it again.
Can we get some sponsors that don't interrupt a Yahtzee video with their poorly made oddly-iron-cross-heavy ads for an extremely binnable game?
Indeed.
Sponsors are fine and I have absolutely nothing against the sponsor messages in general. However mid-conent interruption is absolutely counterproductive. No desire to even entertain the idea of checking it out.
That aside i relate to the idea of familiar feelings promoting replay value
I on the other hand would like Yahtzee doing a completely unhinged sponsor message for once
@@espio87 "But first, here's a shoutout to our sponsor--Jiminy Cockthroat productions!"
War Thunder isn't completely binnable, the community's good for a laugh when they leak classified military documents to win an argument about tank specs.
Ooooooh that's a big add for a short video
Edit: Omg it came back for a double dip at the end!
I am in the camp of “play it again, but harder this time” If it’s a game I truly love. First Playthrough is on Normal, second is normally hardest if I can muster it 😅
Fire Emblem games are all about new game + on hardcore mode
@@peteshap1 Depends on the game as most games don't even have NG+, let alone hardcore mode worth playing like in Awakening where the game just becomes more BS the harder you set the difficulty...
As long as Hard Mode actually changes enemy placement and doesn't just change their damage and health numbers. Numbers-based difficulty sucks.
Me on all the bioshock and halo games
@@somejerk5662Ultrakill does a really neat thing, where the difficulties just change enemy behaviour for the most part. Enemies are faster on higher difficulties and their projectiles are also faster. Difficulty also affects things like what attacks are parriable, as well as how enemies react to certain things. I think it's a good way to handle difficult without needing to change enemy placements (although the game's creator has stated that "advanced" enemy placements are planned in the future for people who don't like the changes to enemy behaviour on higher difficulties)
I only really replay games that have very strong gameplay loops instead of feeling motivated to do it for the new stuff. I don’t replay RDR1, Hades, Deep Rock Galactic, Devil May Cry 3, Spyro trilogy, Castlevania Rondo of Blood, or Sonic 3 & Knuckles to experience new stuff but because I’m having so much fun that replaying then that never gets old for me
Hades nailed having "unique replay value" while also having a good story.
I agree with you, but they only did it by divorcing the story from the gameplay somewhat. The two share themes of purgatorial repeated struggles, whether it be to punch your dad or make an emotional connection with Death, but they don’t happen at the same time. You do a run, you are rewarded story, you do another run. When the story is more directly connected to the gameplay, as in Bunker, it doesn’t work as well as a rogue like.
Honestly, I think Hades is in this weird middle ground of not providing the replay value of a traditional roguelite while also forcing replays to get the story.
@@claytonweaver7335why does it not have as much replay value?
hades is incredibly annoying because it's clearly structured to be linear with a linear progression system so if you want to actually experience the story you're just forced to spend time doing boring grind runs for mirror currency and nectar, dying and then talking to people
i really don't understand the hype behind that game, the randomization aspect is really weak and it drags the entire game down because supermassive figured out that by slapping a roguelike label on their game they can make more money
I love Hades and feel it's perfect as a rogue-lite... I guess I don't play a ton of that genre though because I usually find it boring and samey. What I love about Hades is the "build" aspect. It's not the dungeon that changes every time... it's you. The fact that the dungeon is largely the same each time makes it obvious how the changes YOU have made affect your success (picking a different weapon, different accessory, different passive buffs, different boons from the gods, or even your own play style changing, etc). I usually describe it to people as "Slay the Spire if it were an ARPG". I love deckbuilders and the only really good way to make them single-player seems to be this rogue-lite route. I think if you're playing a game like Hades coming from the direction that the fun is supposed to come from the fact that the dungeon itself is semi-randomized, you're doing it wrong and cheating yourself out of the actual fun, which is creating an interesting build during the run and seeing how it compares to other builds.
Regarding Amnesia, I haven't played it, but from the description, it sounds like they were aiming for "roguelike" but completely missed the bit where the player makes meaningful decisions each run which totally change the style and gameplay. In Hades, as well as in BoI or other roguelikes, you change your equipment or your build constantly from a large number of potential choices, but it sounds like in Amnesia, the only thing that changes is the locations of a few things in the dungeon, and that's just nowhere near enough to create "replay value" (in the context of games where you do "runs", which it sounds like Amnesia was hoping to be).
That ad sucked. Would appreciate if they were put at the ends/beginnings of the vids rather than right in the middle
You do realise you can just skip ahead, right?
@@JHawke1 Lol yeah I know, I just think the video flows better if you keep the ad in the beginning or end
@@GurdevSeepersaud Eh, if a minor inconvenience is enough to help pay the bills, it's no bother to me
@@JHawke1 Agreed, thought it was worth mentioning though because it was a near-perfect video otherwise. I'm okay with ads so long as they don't interfere with the content, which is what kind of happened here
@@jlev1028 Until Yahtzee or any other member of the escapist team reviews warthunder then there's no conflict of interest.
Yeah, that's ultimately what replay value boils down to: how good it is on subsequent playthroughs. A lot of people might conflate it with longevity, in the form of "what's to do after you've rolled credits?" Harder difficulties, speedrun for the best rank to unlock new things, side modes to keep you occupied. All these things are what people look for when they want/need a reason to put more time into the game beyond the main campaign. Because god forbid you spend too little time and panic over not getting your money's worth.
Frankly, all of those extras and unlockables actually serve to _decrease_ replay value for me. Not that I have anything against them, but if they are a selling point instead of a pleasant surprise, then the game is probably not worth your time or money.
The only element I've found that actively increases replay value is 'boy I enjoyed X but it's been a while since I played, maybe I should reinstall'. Although that's partially due to a preference for single player and story based, and occasionally replaying ten years down the line can give you a new perspective on a game. Which is hard for developers, because they can't exactly add a five year wait into the game's coding (but I will get that The Stanley Parable achievement legitimately!).
@@benedictrogers1478 how far are you along into normal Go Outside?
as remember, Ultra Deluxe has Super Go Outside, which requires waiting a whole decade
That was a great video. Next time I watch it I'm going to try it on a harder difficulty.
Ooo, 2x speed?
@@Kumimono Negative Punctuation
The War Thunder ad has 2x health
He sits through both ads in full.
4:23 is the end of the ad. Have fun.
I have a feeling that Yahtzee would do pretty well on Cameo
Even Onlyfans, if you like the vaguely-English bear type. Sort of a more intellectual Winnie the Pooh.
The way he lead into the sponsor segment hahahaha
I love how Yahtzee couldn’t even be bothered to do it himself lmao
It's very appropriate that the sponsor broke through the door, like the monster does in The Bunker.
God that sponsorship transition was a train wreck. Idk why they can't just leave at the beginning of the video for us to skip and listen to Yahtzee uninterrupted like we usually do
You can’t skip the video if it’s in the middle?
I would assume the middle costs more
Where ads are placed in the video is determined by contract usually.
sponsorbloack and youtube revanced shhhh
how the hell did they let yahtz get away with this xD
I agree with Yahtzee - the best way to have replay value is to have a fun game to begin with. I got excited by the announcement of the Batman trilogy on Switch yesterday because it's one of the games I've been meaning to go back and play again because at their core, these games are fun. I don't expect it to feel like the first time I played the game, but it doesn't have to.
I particularly enjoy Ori and the blind forest's one life mode. The extreme pressure of having to restart upon death makes me slow down and explore for the life and energy extending pickups that I normally didn't bother to look for. I was really surprised how many were accessible from the start of the game! Essentially, I was playing the same game, but with slightly altered the rules that drastically changed how I play it and how it feels to overcome obstacles.
I feel like bumping the difficulty up is almost a good way of getting something closer to my original experience playing the game. As someone who isn't good at games I generally start a game bashing my head on the keyboard not knowing how to do anything, but by the time I get to the end and replay a game I'm inevitably better at the game, so I turn the difficulty up to counteract the fact I'm starting with a bunch of skill I didn't have on my first play through
Exactly. Battles will feel a little too easy to be satisfying unless I bump the difficulty up a level.
Honestly would prefer the ad either at the beginning or the end. But hey, fast forward still works.
Sometimes it's not up to us, so that's why we're offering sponsor-free videos at the $5 tier now.
Nothing like stopping in the middle of a video essay to have an ad
Understandable as it is to seek the ad revenue, having it gatecrash midway through AND have a secondary intrusion at the end is a bit much on a short form video.
@@theescapist Yeah I get that, can't afford it right now but I have no complaints.
Is it up to you what sponsor? Because its kind of ironic that a game yahtzee would rather tear out his own eyes then play is sponsoring his vid :)
3 of my favorite games of all time are Wario World, Luigi's Mansion, and Metroid Dread. You know what makes them so replayable to me? Their length. They are the perfect length to blast through repeatedly. Metroid Dread especially. It is one of the only games I know that right after I beat it, I think to myself, "Damn, I want to play it all over again right now!"
This is exactly something I've been thinking about for a while - my most replayed game is Easily the Titanfall 2 campaign. There is a little variety with difficulty and what titan or weapon you choose for a section, but mostly I replay it because it's fun and it's absolutely effortless to breeze through. I'mve been trying to come up with a better way to define "replayable" in games, because what game marketing thinks is replayable and what I think of as replayable seem mostly disconnected.
Nothing makes me scrub past a sponsored segment more than when it interrupts the flow of the video
Absolutely agree! One of my favourite games to replay is Dark Souls, just because its fun.
Whenever I get to the end, I immediately miss being in the world and interacting with it, so going back to replay it feels like returning to a familiar place.
That being said, games with multiple options don't always feel particularly fun to replay for me because everything _other_ than the choices feels like a chore to get through. I really can't imagine someone replaying a game with _just_ choices like The Quarry for fun.
It's a testament to Yahtzee's ethos that as soon as the ad turns on you just start chuckling because it's so out of place
You didn't just start spamming the skip button?
I found that whenever I replay games with branching narratives, it's always with the intention of making different choices this time, and yet I always end up making pretty much the exact same ones. Because, it turns out, there was a reason I chose them in the first place.
Often the other option is usually more punishing or illogical anyway. Most games don't do being an evil ass with effective character development outside of everyone hating you and screwing you over.
I went into this video thinking it would be one of those "replay value is not important", but it ended up being about something else. And I actually agree with the argument completely. Novelty is a nice-to-have in a game with high replay value (e.g. a sidequest you didn't know was there the first time around even if you scoured every nook and cranny of the game), but it's not a must. A "fun time" is a must, but that's difficult to quantify, so playtime became the metric.
Replay value is different for every player you ask.
Simply, people have different interests.
Someone might replay for familiarity. Someone else might replay for self improvement and challenge. A lot of possible motivations are wildly different, so designing “replay value” isn’t as easy as “there’s procedural generation”.
I replay a souls game every few months also because of that sense of familiarity. They are pretty much my comfort food when I don't feel like starting something new
Really hit the nail on the head with this one. I often replay games that I enjoy the story and worldbuilding in, specifically to get the same experience again, and shuffling things around rarely spices things up much.
Especially a horror game, where most of the fear is in the unknown. Once most is known, only a ton of randomisation will change that, which also reduces the appeal of playing through a game again anyway, you don't feel any more skilled when you're just playing against a random slot machine.
Really thankful for this episode, getting me through this fog of hyperfocusing on games with the most "replay value". Yes I've enjoyed some randomizers and roguelites immensely, but it was because of their game elements being good on their own. Historically my most replayed games ARE ones that I generally play the same way every time, including racing, arcade, and FPS games. Sure I could invent a challenge to play a character I don't usually use, but if I know that ol' reliable is more fun to me, then is that not still replay value? And horror was a great example - those games will lose their original shock in a replay, but that doesnt invalidate the rest of the game if designed well. Great stuff.
This week's memo: "don't say anything mean about the sponsor."
Next week's memo: "don't imply anything mean about the sponsor."
I feel like cyberpunk for me has alot of elements that *SHOULD* warrant a second play through.
Different gender, build, starting story, endings, combined with all the new enhancements and gameplay overhaul on the way.
The reason I enjoyed cyberpunk the first go round was my investment in the story and my character’s relationships with the side characters. I cant imagine a second go round hitting anywhere near the same emotionally as the first.
Especially since a lot of choices in Cyberpunk involve very clear "good" and "bad" outcomes. I just can't bring myself to intentionally screw up missions and ruin relationships with the side characters, so I just watch those other outcomes on UA-cam.
@@bkgrila same buddy same, I don’t want those voice messages lol
YEAH I LOVE EXTRA PUNCTUATION!
extra punctuation > zero punctuation ngl
YEAH I LOVE YOUR POSITIVITY
I always thought that the idea that games have to be able to provide new experiences to be replayable was weird. Games are the only media that can (easily) rearrange itself when revisited, but that's not stopped people from repeatedly re-reading books, re-watching films, re-looking at art and re-listening to music for about as long as those artforms have existed. I've seen Back to the Future more times than it can count, it's been the same movie every time, and I've liked it every time. I don't know why the same couldn't be said about replaying a game I like.
Ultrakill is a great example of replay value. The game is built to be replayed over and over again with the player trying to do cooler shit than they did before and get a higher rank.
Some games do have great inherent replay value, like Hades with its different builds, boons, weapons, pact of punishment and how the side stories only progresses slowly every time you die or the main story when you complete a run. Or how about Fallout New Vegas, where certain quests and faction storylines cannot be done on a single character, forcing you to make several characters if you want to see all the variables. Replay value can manifest itself in a lot of different ways, whether in the form of new content, a higher difficulty or just out of a desire to replay the same thing again because it was fun. Whatever the case, I do think replay value is quite important for certain types of games, but certainly not all.
I do feel that the financial aspect is one worth mentioning. Yathzee mentioned this once on a stream, children form some very stiff attachments to games they play in their childhoods, Half-Life for him, GTA Vice City for me. Because they have a lot of free time to play them, but not a lot of money to buy new ones. Plus, children are generally easier to entertain , so it's less of a problem for them. It's less true for adults, but most of us don't buy a new game every week and only play them once, I'd wager.
Seeing the ad *come back* instead of the ZP jingle hit me like a sack of spare change to the back of the skull.
If I replay a game, it is either a 10/10 with a few years to forget about it, or it has incredible and addicting gameplay. I don't have time to replay your game when I've already seen the plot.
I enjoyed the discussion on the fallacy of replay value. I do kind of think that if you enjoyed Amnesia: The Bunker enough to replay it, I think changing up the moment to moment with randomly placed items might be one of the only ways to prevent *over-familiarity*, and making you have to improvise with the survival horror aspect just a bit more. That said, I'm not sure it'd be the kind of thing I'd want to replay (let alone play at all) in the first place.
Also, I just wanna say for Nick the editor (or whomever it may concern), please don't put those ads in the middle of videos like that. It really breaks the flow of the video, and will make it hard to rewatch it down the line. I understand you gotta keep the lights on and sometimes sponsor reads are one of the only reliable ways to do that. But please don't do it like this again, it was unpleasantly disruptive.
I imagine the sponsor paid more just so they could have it in the middle of the video. It likely wasn't an artistic choice, is me point.
@@This-Was-Sparta For sure. Like I said, I know you gotta keep the lights on as a business, salaries to pay, and sometimes stuff like that comes up. But I feel leaving a reasonable dissent about it on this side of the decision is a fair way to communicate that it's not an ideal choice and maybe it should be avoided if possible.
Randomising enemy encounters or enemy behaviour goes a long way to improving this. Resident Evil 2/3/4 remakes are very good at this, making replays very exciting no matter how much you learn the game, as well as having some dynamic difficulty and ammo drops.
When I was a kid, kingdom hearts 2 had a ton of replay value because I just liked going back to square one and progressing through everything all over again.
Lots of people rewatch movies or TV shows, and those are literally the same experience every time.
The terrible notion of the "only" game is infecting the industry. They think a single game needs to be infinitely long and infinitely replayable. It's frankly impossible and we get worse games as a result
I find most JRPGs to be hard to motivate myself to replay. Mainly because I have a tendency to play through the long story, but then when I reach the end, I feel this mindset of "is it worth going through that again"
It's usually not, the problem is a wordy story is way harder to stomach when you know what's going to happen, so you end up getting impatient and skipping stuff only to find the game is way less compelling without the story
As a fan of Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, and a few specific Tales Of games: Yes.
@@Percival917 yeah, but I don't think I can count how many times I've replayed Awakening
idk, i think there is something to be said for replaying in a survival horror context, where the game kind of shifts from a focus on unnerving the player to a player-driven focus on executing the gameplay systems more efficiently and completing the game faster. Thats a big part of Resident Evil and Silent Hill's appeal on second playthroughs at least (though they usually, but not always, go a bit further with additional story sections or bigger shakeups to gameplay). I think it's slightly different than some other genres of game just because managing the survival systems is something you can generally improve at and master across multiple playthroughs in a satisfying way and I think some minor changes to the locations of items doesn't necessarily harm that.
That's speedrunning in a nutshell, reducing puzzle games into precision platformers is part of the fun
@@scalarmotion yeah for sure. I think certain genres are conducive to speedrunning, and adventure games/survival horror games are some of them. Though it’s sometimes not even as hardcore as speedrunning, just kind of casually getting satisfaction from going a little faster or overcoming a self made challenge. I’ve played the last of us 2 a bunch of times just because it feels great to have a mastery over the combat encounters on the harder difficulties, clearing encounters that used to take me forever in really flashy and efficient ways. Having open ended gameplay I think really helps with that sort of stuff.
Love how we went from cable tv with commercial breaks to streaming and UA-cam with no commercial breaks and now both have commercial breaks.
They Can Force Non Skippable.
They Can Take My Ad Blocker.
They Can even ShoeHorn Ads into the Video.
But They'll Never Take My Arrow Keys
Just you wait, they'll come up with something for that too.
The irony of this video dropping just as I was literally about to boot up Amnesia: The Bunker to give it a second playthrough (just finished it last night).
If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to beat?
One idea I've read with regards to story in procedural games: there are stories that the player tells to others about their exploits. Mark Rosewater, head designer of Magic: The Gathering, called it "narrative equity", and it was an interesting idea to me. The basic gist: we humans like telling stories, and some people enjoy playing and replaying games in order to generate stories to tell to our peers. For example, winning in Magic by equipping legless snakes with boots, or warmongering as Gandhi in Civilization. By imbuing details and flavor into the various game pieces, the player will connect the dots and interpret the story of the events themselves when they relay to others. One CAN create procedural, replayable games that have narrative value, but it will be a very different story of typical games. Those stories will be heavily filtered by the player's world view, and no one player will experience the same story as another.
I strongly agree with this. My most replayed games are the ones where I had fun playing them the first time, and most of them play almost exactly the same way every time you play them. A recent example of a game I will NOT be replaying would be Pentiment - it has branching paths and technically I could have played it very differently the 2nd time around, but it just wasn't any fun for me to play.
- essay on replay value
- replays warthunder ad at the end
You know what's a GOOD "procedurally-generated Metroidvania"? A Robot Named Fight. Though that's more because each playthrough is pretty short, between an hour or two, but the core gameplay loop is very strong and the narrative justifies it. You're just one of many robots fighting the Megabeast, and every new playthrough is another robot's attempt to journey into the old ruins and gather enough cool old weapons to bring the fight to the final boss. It's one of the few non-RPGs that I've clocked in more than 40 hours total, because it's not only re-playable, but straight up addictive.
Please keep sponsorships to the start or end of the video, it ruins the pacing of the video to be interupted by a sponsorship.
yeah it feels jarring, although the way it was treated is kinda funny
Sponsorblock
True replay value comes from a game you bloody love, so you end up completing it a ridiculous amount of times and even though you know whats coming the memory outs you in mind of similar emotions the first time you played it....for me it was/is Fear Effect and Metal Gear Solid
LOLed at a lot of imps, especially the dead imps. Also LOLed at the time Yahtzee revives after dying a few times and says to the monster, "We've got to stop meeting like this." :D
Wow, that as wasn’t jarring at all.
XCOM 2 is procedurally generated and has a fun, if straightforward story. Procedural generation and replay value aren't bad things for some games, the difficulty is balancing all the variables with some kind of narrative and player skill.
Why are people acting like Yahtzee hates the sponsor? He doesn’t even edit these last I checked. It was just a segue with his sense of humor and the editors were clearly okay with putting in the War Thunder logo for the bit.
Its pretty rare for me to replay games as well for a lot of the same reasons. I recently replayed Fallen Order in anticipation for the upcoming sequel and I actually bumped the difficulty DOWN because I wanted to breeze through it and focus on collectibles. I had already beated it once so the challenge was a forgone conclusion to me. I'm really glad I replayed it too because I completely missed the crashed Venerator area in my first run and that alone made the replay worth the effort.
I know Yahtzee was never a huge fan of the Halo games, but a big part of the reason I loved the hell out of the older games (up till about Reach anyway) was that there was a ton of replay value facilitated by the mechanics. Just having a sufficiently large variety of weapons, vehicles, and equipment that actually feel different from each other is enough to ensure I can still find new and fun way of getting through any given encounter. And all of that without randomly generating anything behind minor variations in enemy AI behavior.
The notes about replaying a game is how I feel about sequels. It's fine for a sequel to not give new mechanics. Give me more of the same with just different levels and story. I'm fine with that. Because if I enjoy a game and want to replay it, then I'd be fine playing another virtually similar experience.
Do you have any examples of games you thought did this well? If they have any puzzle elements I feel like they need new mechanics just to give the devs something to work with.
I feel bad complaining about the ads but if I could make just one suggestion? That one sentence-long extra ad towards the very end: maybe move that to *after* the end credits? As it is, It messes with the flow of the content. The heavy metal guitars over the credits are a perfect punctuation to let us know the video is over, and I don’t think moving the ad to the very, very end would impact it too much.
The secret to replaying games is drop the volume and put podcasts on simultaneously. There is something very mellow about redoing a non lethal Emily run in Dishonored while listening to Urban Planning and Ecology news.
Maybe I don't speak for others, but, can we put the ad reading back to the beginning again??
Yes, I know, Escapist, we can pay you to not have the ad at all, but, that doesn't necessarily mean you should take the carte blanch approach and interrupt a video for an ad read when it could be at the start.
I don't know about you, but, I don't think we should have to cough up an extra $3 just so we don't have to have Yahtzee's sardonically beautiful voice interrupted at the three minute mark by a wishy-washy man from California reading the ad script for a shitty mobile game nobody will play in a month's time with charisma and enthusiasm so fake it's got breast implants and facial reconstruction.
Agreed. Isn't the whole point of the early access tier that we don't have to go to the escapist site which has ads? If I'm getting ads here too then what am I paying for?
@TheAtlanteanJester in some cases it's not up to us where the ad is placed. This is one of those times and as our parent company is handling more of our sales now (this is a good thing), this may be the case more often which is why we're offering sponsor-free vids at the $5 tier now.
@@dpetersz The Early Access tier NEVER promised sponsor-free videos. We've now updated the $5 tier to offer that perk. Most people on Early Access just didn't want to have to leave UA-cam and wanted to support the channel directly.
@@theescapist If that be the case, I'd be on the lookout for either a change of ads accepted, or prepare for people to leave entirely.
Ad reads are a pain in the ass as it is with all of UA-cam, it doesn't need to be cranked up even more just because you have a larger parent company that doesn't understand the ins and outs of the UA-cam viewership, and is only content with seeing a profit margin rise.
This is the sort of corporate oversight shod that your creators like Yahtzee tear to shreds on an almost daily basis, and what kept us coming back.
@@theescapist I guess I'm misremembering. Either way, I don't really mind ads, but mid-video is taking it a bit far I think. I can't imagine Yahtzee was happy with it either.
Then again, 5$ a month seems fair for ad-free. It just seems worse because it feels like midroll ads are there to push the ad-free tier, rather than it being a choice.
Starfield that has been announced recently has procedurally generated planets to make every playthrough unique.
Idk if Procedurally generated is a good selling point. (I'm not in the camp against them so don't bother)
I'm cool with a lot of empty barron planets and I don't really mind if every planet in every playthrough is the same and in the exact same location.
I think game developers are taking a step backwards rather then a step forward in game development focusing on problems that weren't really issues in the first place.
I've been replaying Skyrim. I decided on survival mode with the Cursed Ring of Hircine perpetually equipped, activated Miraak's soul stealing script, and I just never touched Dawnguard so the vampires never stop attacking. If I wanted a challenge, I would play another game, but I wanted to experience more of Skyrim in ways I just never have before. You're pretty much on the money, the market for different games is massive.
I rewatch your "let's drown out" seriess before sleep. Well, mostly relisten to the endless banter, and mostly because i rarely finish them because i fall asleep before the end.
I just want to express that I absolutely hate the addition of ads popping up as baked-in mid-video segments. This ruins the possibility for those great 4+ hour compilations of these videos, and also just altogether makes the content worse.
I’m all for getting your bag. Sponsor these videos to continue their production and existence. But putting them mid-video is horrible. Stop
The ads do not follow through to our compilation videos as that was not paid for.
@@theescapistthat’s good to know, however this video is directly interrupted by the ad. So if you all were ever to make a compilation of EP, there would be one huge strange cut in the middle of this episode segment. I and what seems to be a majority of others urge you to reconsider you monetization approach for something like this in future
Honestly games with good replay value come in two categories for me - 1. Games with class based / RPG elements so every playthrough is drastically different, like your Fromsoft Soulslikes and Dragon's dogma, 2. Games that have such a high skill ceiling that you didn't feel like you got enough out of them in one run, where the skill ceiling can be climbed towards either by replaying on higher difficulties or improved chapter/stage scores (character action games, racing games, pretty much any game that ranks your stage/chapter and lets you replay for higher ranks) or self imposed challenges or speedrunning (Mario Odyssey and Ori and the Will of the Wisps for me).
When you try to create replayability by rearranging shit you need to make damn sure that rearranging actually drastically changes how the game works on another playthrough. Randomizing item locations in metroidvania in a way that actually drastically changes the game is possible, despite the poor example cited in the video, and there is a mod that does so for pretty much every metroidvania out there.
What about Hades? It has a strong narrative and hand-crafted nature yet uses procedural generation intelligently for legitimately unique experiences each run. Very few games have ever struck that balance well.
I'm surprised Silent Hill didn't get a mention here. One of the coolest things about that game IMHO was that there were different difficulty levels for combat and puzzles so you could replay with new, tougher puzzles. It was a cool touch!
3:20 "But you can't [go whole-hog on using procedural mechanics in the name of infinite replay value] if you also want to tell a story. A story you hope to have any control over at any rate."
And there's the rub. Just like you said in your essay on branched narratives, any narrative experience gunning for that objective needs a good procedural character generations system.
XCom and Mordor have the right idea (I'd throw Shadows of Doubt in that list), but I want one that accounts for more dramatic character decisions: scheming, romance, _betrayal_
I want to join a procedurally-generated adventuring party, recruit a procedurally-generated cadet, then get stabbed in the back by them based on parts of their procedurally-generated background that I was too lazy to look into.
How was I to know that they were leaving at 6PM every day to visit the grave of their procedural dog, who was killed by my party's procedural Rogue?
Replaying a game can be like re-reading a book. There's never anything "new" (although I have found brief descriptions I missed in previous reads), but the ride of the narrative is fun and familiar and cozy. And the next time I read it, I can skip over the bits that didn't do much for me.
That last bit is doubly important when replaying games. If it's simply a matter of blasting through a side quest (go there, get that, done) or choosing to skip a particular level, wonderful. If I have to play through everything including the game play I hated or see every cut scene, then I'm happy for it to be a one and done.
A great example of "replay the same is good" is the movie inglorious bastards bomb scene. The first time you don't know the explosion is coming so it's startling. Subsequent viewings you know it's coming so it's suspenseful. That's good design.
If the monster itself got randomized after the first playthrough, THEN it could be interesting! Of course, that would require so much work it'd be very hard to sell to executives.
Still, imagine how effective the horror would be if you could never get overexposed to the monster because it would procedurally evolve the more you escaped it?
Oh I get it. In a video about "Replay" Value, the ad is also replayed. Genius.
I think the best way to incentivize replaying video games is to feature some kind of new game+ mode in a RPG, which raises your level cap and gives you back all your gear you had from your last playthrough as well as other benefits that make the next playthrough easier or harder, or even a bit different in some other ways.
Replay value, in my humble opinion, comes in two distinct ways:
1. Diversity of playstyle or choices: For example a good cRPG, like Divinity Original Sin 2. It's still the "same story", but how you get through it and why your character cares is different for all 7 origin characters. As well as choosing a different class that plays differently; a warrior takes fights differently than a mage, as an example. Another really good example is Arcanum of Steamworks and Magic Obscura. Alignment, race, stats and class play a huge role in what you can see and do in one playthrough.
2. "30 seconds of fun": This is where the gameplay loop is fun enough to repeat by itself, even though there is not that much variety. Examples I would mention are Doom Eternal, Halo or Half Life. All of those games are very linear in terms of mission design and have a bit of story, but the combat itself is so good that you can replay it over and over again while not getting bored.
At least that's my 2c
Like Sterling said a few years back, when the hero shooter was saturating the market- Replay value is determined by whether or not I want to replay a game.
Their specific example being Silent Hill 2.
“I don’t have the energy to electrify myself with novelty all the bloody time.”
The fact that Yahtzee passive aggressively cuts off the video for the sponsor when he was literally talking about multiplayer only games ten seconds ago and could easily have segued into it makes it even funnier.
You can also go the Yoko Taro route and go "play it again. now play it again. now play it again. now play it again. now play it again. now play it again. when will you be finished? trust me, you'll know. now play it again."
There are great ways to introduce replayability without procedural elements. Castlevania: Circle of the Moon did this in a great way without needing to randomize elements, make a modular story, or just making everything slightly harder.
After beating the game you unlock a new mode: your character has it's physical attack power cut dramatically, but your mana charges significantly quicker and you start with all of the magic cards unlocked. Beat it again and you get enhanced secondary weapons but weakened other attacks and regular magic, etc. It completely changes how you approach the game, while still maintaining what made the core game an enjoyable affair.
Other than a few generational classics like ALttP I don't think I've ever re-played a single player game as much as I have that one. I wish more games took that sort of approach.
I love that yahtzee is so on point with handling of sponsorship
"for the greater good"
Yours , spunkgargleweewee
I fell in love with the original Diablo primarily due to the combat and spooky environments but what made me enjoy it over and over again was the fact that, in that game, death was essentially game over (or reload from a save file).
- When you did start over, all of the dungeons would be completely different in layout.
- If you did reload from a save file, then there's enough RNG in the moment-to-moment gameplay to make your next attempt at clearing the room slightly different.
You want to explore every nook and cranny because the loot (especially the tomes) and XP promises more power. I always gravitate towards games with procedural generation; because my experience with the original Diablo still entertains me decades later... and I can't say the same for games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout which relies on ME to make the experience different.
Which is kind of the point of Roguelikes. When you have permanent death, your next attempt won't be a carbon copy of the previous... so you don't know which potions/scrolls does what (hence why Diablo inherited the identification scroll) and where the monsters are (which added value to scrolls that enabled you to see through walls)... or where the exit is.
Over the years, that notion somewhat got diluted due to the introduction of meta-progression and "checkpoints"... or due to the dungeon layouts being composed of larger, prettier set pieces. Diablo 3 and 4, for example, looks and feels the same each playthrough because the set pieces are so large that it kind makes it too predictable and, when you die, you respawn 10 meters away and the dungeon stays the same.... comparatively to Diablo 1, 2 and Path of Exile; which uses smaller tiles; using a more complex algorithm.
Procedural generation for the sake of it is pointless. It's useful to speed up game development (as Bethesda does for the Elder Scrolls or how Hello Games does it for No Man's Sky) or it's useful when you force the player to start again (aka: permanent death). Another useful aspect is if you generate a world that you can load independently from your character/avatar; Minecraft, Valheim or most survival games comes to mind. The latter is a bit weaker in implementation but still have some appeal to it.
If it's dynamically procedural, the important part is that it needs to enhance the rest of the game's design.
Yahtzee: "...at heart..."
Editor: *clip of Amneisa's protag throwing a literal human heart*
Well played.