I'm no expert either and possibly know just enough to be dangerous but I would guess that Luther's bible was even more important for the German language than the King James Bible for English. Germany after all was divided into many different states with their own courts so the language was much less standardized than English. Luther had to decide which dialect to use which was probably much more obvious for the King James Bible. It would be interesting to know more about what he chose and why (for example, I don't think it would have been the Austrian dialect of the Habsburg Court. I don't know if he chose to write in short sentences because he was writing for a very linguistically diverse audience.
25:40 _(Finally, someone uses the term _*_sophistry_*_ in context!)_ I bring this up: "Sophists" had Socrates brought to trial, found guilty, and put to death i.e. it's a way of using language _"to win the argument"_ while rhetoric _(in my theory of everything)_ is more to inspire.
Luther’s Bible downgraded 7 books from the inspired to apocrypha, the books contained the bits he didn’t like, so in a way, his reverence for scripture is inconsistent with the evidence.. not even scripture could have gotten in the way of Luther’s attempt at dealing with his issues..
Sounds to me like Luther had hemorrhoids from being constipated and straining. This can be incredibly painful and bloody when you have a flare up, plus, because your severely constipated the poop loses most it's water and then forms large ball shaped stools and sometimes their the size of tennis balls.
It's interesting to hear you say that Luther used simple, short, earthy German language in creating his translation of the Bible because many historians same exactly the same thing about Tyndale... the creator of the original English Bible, which would form the foundation of the King James version.
In the end, Luther opposes others who follow their consciences in directions different from his. So he himself demonstrates that when everyone follows their own conscience and 'lived experience' it leads to chaos and social breakdown.
To mention: in Italy, at least, all marriage contracts and promises were, at least figuratively, described as being affixed to the cathedral door in a given small town, so maybe it wasn’t such a big deal for Luther to place his document where it allegedly was?
A lot of stuff on Luther himself and the, shall we say, peculiarities of his psyche but this cannot explain the success of the Protestant cause within the Empire. Much more needs to be said about the political tensions within the Empire as the Hapsburgs attempted to increase Imperial control over the territory as well as the socio-economic developments in Europe at the time that created a receptive audience for the reformed religions.
I really appreciate the focus on Luther. I feel like everyone else covers the other stuff with only a token mention of the guy that lit the match that broke the camels back.
Tom and Dominic's interaction over the history of Martin Luther and the medieval Roman Catholic Church is undoubtedly entertaining with their chosen array of "trifle" tidbits. However, a possible good analogy to how The Rest is History is covering Martin Luther and the Reformation would be a historical discussion of World War II without ever mentioning J. Robert Oppenheimer, the development of the Atomic Bomb, and the devastation of the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which broke the will of the Japanese military.
It's hard not to think that there was a kind of repressed demand for some defiance to the Roman Catholic church in Europe - that this was all bubbling under the surface. This "indulgence" stuff seems very transparent and risible (thinking of Canterbury Tales' Pardoner with his pig bones), It was only a few years later that Henry VIII made the break. In some ways it's surprising that they kept the lid on it as long as they did.
And a horrific attitude towards women. I am an Irish American and I have always seen Luther as very similar to Russian Alexander Kerensky. I have a much higher opinion of Nicholas II than most people because he tried everything in his power to stop WWI. WWI was NOT the Great War, World War II was the Great War of Good vs. Evil, WWI was the Stupid War. And I am still angry that Serbia didn't pay for the evil they wrought. Kerensky was stupid and continued the Czar's policies, basically unchanged. And got exactly the same result. Rasputin had almost convinced Nicholas II to call for a Peace Conference. Martin Luther demanded change and the proceeded to not make things better, simply implementing different problems. Intolerance is something every person in the American South knows, because, as America's Great Lawyer, Clarence Darrow said, it was the most religious and least christian place on earth.
Insofar as Luther was a man following his religious conscious and willing to forfeit his own life for what he believed to be the divine truth, I find him admirable, however I find the desecration of religious imagery by his rampaging followers to be sad, crass, and foolish in the extreme. It is all too easy to destroy. It is lazy to destroy. Destroying works of great beauty, especially those that were the result of hundreds of years of work by people who were filled with adoration for God, is despicable. It reminds me of Mao's nasty little gangs of feckless children, storming about and destroying the beautiful artifacts of Chinese culture in the bloodbath called the "Cultural Revolution". Whether it is Mao, Cromwell, or Luther, those who destroy art, those who burn books, those who can only express their stunted minds and unimaginative emotions through desecration are, in my opinion, the vermin of history. Topple a corrupt church hierarchy? Sure! But for fuck's sake, leave the art alone!
I am always torn by this as both a deeply religious man and a lover of art and history. On one hand "leave the art alone" but on the other it isnt just art is it? It is in it's very purpose a desecration of God's will and in the bible He commands such things be destroyed all the time.
The most amazing coup is that Luther died in his own bed. I suspect that if Luther had lived in this era, some loon would have shot him for being a heretic.
but also a negative aspect surfaced , guys - that Luther translated the Greek version which however was a *corrupt* version , produced by the sanhedrin since 250 BC in Alexandria , of the original scroll (-of prophets) . In all prophets God warns 'that Esau will change my words because he hates you' and calls that "the scroll will be sealed [=corrupted] until the days of the end" . Hence the first chapters of Revelation describe 'the 7 churches' as "the future of the West for the next 2000 years" where 'Pergamum' is "the Reformation" : [though that section is also corrupted , like much of the NT as well] there is no "throne of + satan" (in the Pergamon church) butit is about "the word of + God" (thronos=logos) , and Christ warns them to not copy the corrupt scroll -- which however they did . God ays in prophets about this to us [sic] : "your (1500 AD-) fathers will not listen to me , and produce the wicked one (KJV)", and its not hard to see how only in the end days the réal scroll will be restored - which is the moment "that Christ removes the seals from the scroll" , read : the KJV is exposed as corruption . Even the metahistory hów the scroll came to Alexandria in the first place , is extremely interesting - apart from the content of the original scroll , having mindblowing themes . You re both very pleasant to listen / watch also because you clearly enjoy it ; )
Luther was basically just a bit mad. If only he had not become a monk! The Christian world would never have been torn apart. Those who followed him on his trail of destruction are even more culpable than him, since he obviously had intense mental health issues…
There was no swing. Luther saw himself as a conservative pushing back against Roman liberalism, not a revolutionary fighting to overturn sacred tradition.
Luther was not "living his truth." He was preaching what he thought the word of God taught. He wasn't standing on his own opinions, his own ideas, his own preferences. Just as much as any Catholic abjures their own understanding for their understanding of what the Church teaches, Luther was completely abandoning his own ideas and clinging only to what he understood the Scriptures to teach.
I appreciate the history by why can't you people get it right about faith alone is about Jesus, not the Bible. The host doesn't seem to want to get the premises of the question right.
As I suggested in my comments with #3, Tom and Dominic (and the producers) seem to go out of their way to avoid mention of Erasmus, the Pope's intellectual assassin, his great publication The Diatribe, and Luther's response, The Bondage of the Will. "The Bondage of the Will is fundamental to an understanding of the original doctrines of the Reformation. It has been called "the Manifesto of the Reformation." The exchange between these two men was "the opportunity to give major treatment to what Luther saw as the very heart of the gospel. The matter under debate was the grace of a sovereign God. Luther affirms man's total inability to save himself and the sovereignty of Divine grace in his salvation. In making this affirmation, he explains and upholds the doctrine of justification by faith and defends predestination as determined by the foreknowledge of God." By contrast, the Roman Catholic Church's dogmatic system (religious totalitarianism) was an elaborate scheme of WORKS AND MERIT. Even though it's been over 500 years since Luther, Catholicism (similar to Islam) finds ways, sometimes violent, to persecute those who "leave the fold" or speak out against their denominational authority. I can provide details for anyone wishing to hear of the not-so-subtle fallout of the "iron fist in a velvet glove."
Violent ways to persecute those who leave nowadays? Yes, please, give us examples. Religious totalitarianism similar to Islam, indeed... I have been living as a Catholic in a post protestant country for over 20 years, so I'm well used to the contempt that happens every now and then, but sometimes it still surprises me.
Except for Islam, where its violence is a fundamental axiom to exterminate "unbelievers" (non-Muslims), Catholicism (the totalitarian "iron fist in a velvet glove" often forms alliances with secular powers. This can be clearly seen in both South and Central American countries. The local priests and bishops will "look the other way" when law enforcement targets Protestant sects or Evangelicals. These countries do not share America's historic or contemporary application of "separation of church and state." In the case of "cultural Catholicism," (do you understand how it differs from other forms of Catholicism?), American Catholic parents during the '60s viewed any children converting to Protestant Evangelicalism as "joining a cult." "Deprogrammers" at the time often relied on the secular psychiatric profession to classify biblical (historical Protestant) views of spiritual experiences (e.g., 1 Corinthians 2:6-16) as psychotic episodes. Children received heavy doses of psychotic drugs, much like what went on in the former Soviet Union to persecute political/religious prisoners. This form of persecution still takes place. I could go on, but it's unnecessary. @@gosiachaaban2484
I like these podcasts but you need a proper theologian on because at certain points you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting Luther and what Protestants means by Sola Scriptura
Luther is beginning to remind me of Lafayette and his militia and his republican kiss he gave to the citizen king. Balancing between revolution and reaction.
Greta episode, I have one request: Please don't pronounce the English th-sound in German names. Luther is pronounced with a sharp t. The th-sound doesn’t exist in German.
Fair point, however our hosts are English, not German. Should they also pronounce all english words of Germanic origin (most of the language) with this German pronunciation? I would say no.
I would also say no, but this is the name of a person. I would for exmaple pronounce the A- in Tom Hollands name with the English A-sound and not the German one , even when speaking German.
Did anyone other than yours truly catch Tom’s mocking giggle of Dominic’s use of “elect” at the very end? Telling? Dominic and the production crew clearly shill for Catholicism. I’m not sure about Tom. Yet, both avoid the more serious issues like Luther’s taking aim at Catholic heresy and documented sexual practices. For example, Augustine had two concubines, the first was truly a common law wife and they had a son. Augustine’s mother spent the women back to Africa. When Augustine was 30, his mother chose a more acceptable wife to be. She was 12. Augustine entered the monastery before consummation.
Never been so hyped for worms in my life
Eating a diet of them this morning! Yum 😋
A diet of worms is not as bad as a diet of spears. The next meeting of the German Diet was at the city of Speyer-the diet of Speyer.
So glad that this series has continued!
I look forward to next episode when Zendaya joins the podcast to discuss the Franco-Prussian war.
❤
Great!!! Greetings from New Zealand 🇳🇿
I don't like guests
😂
Pentiment was one of my favorite games of the last couple years, so all this talk about princes and peasants wars is very heartwarming
We don't need Dom doing the typical youtuber thumbnail lmao
I really want to see the bts footage of their producer getting him to make that face lol.
It's hilarious. These are the lads.
He's taking the mick and it is funny lol
"Hier ich stehe/Here I stand" A most classic statement of seriousness and resistance when faced with probable death.
This series is going to get me hooked on your show!
Tom Hollande has some Hapsburg jaw going on 😅👊 great episode 👊👏👏
I never thought a comparison between jacco macaco in Martin Luther would have ever been made, this is why your show is the best
Been listening to you both for ages now I can see you. Brilliant show as always.
Hello from California. I just subscribed to your channel. Great job gentlemen.
Well easily you two are the best on the entire Internet. Thank you so much.
You guys are the best! Could we have a series about mount everest?
absolutely Gripping! I'm addicted to your podcasts.
I was never expecting Sean Dyche and Neil Warnock being mentioned in a Martin Luther series, haha!
Excellent timing, just listened to all the other parts this morning
I'm no expert either and possibly know just enough to be dangerous but I would guess that Luther's bible was even more important for the German language than the King James Bible for English. Germany after all was divided into many different states with their own courts so the language was much less standardized than English. Luther had to decide which dialect to use which was probably much more obvious for the King James Bible. It would be interesting to know more about what he chose and why (for example, I don't think it would have been the Austrian dialect of the Habsburg Court. I don't know if he chose to write in short sentences because he was writing for a very linguistically diverse audience.
25:40 _(Finally, someone uses the term _*_sophistry_*_ in context!)_
I bring this up: "Sophists" had Socrates brought to trial, found guilty, and put to death i.e. it's a way of using language _"to win the argument"_ while rhetoric _(in my theory of everything)_ is more to inspire.
I shall be translating the New Testament immediately - cheaper than Better Help, 😂
you guys are pure rock n roll
Dominic has a very impressive doctor who collection doesn't he!
Luther’s Bible downgraded 7 books from the inspired to apocrypha, the books contained the bits he didn’t like, so in a way, his reverence for scripture is inconsistent with the evidence.. not even scripture could have gotten in the way of Luther’s attempt at dealing with his issues..
I'd shudder at the sight of Luther's browsing history i think.
Dom’s thumbnail face is hilarious
Oh yes! I love hearing stories on constipation! Hurrah! ;)
Thank you!
Love you guys!
A few episodes on Calvin and Zwingli next please.
Or Calvin and Hobbes
Yes! More Luther. I was afraid that the show had moved on.
Same
No it's still going and we have another to come!
As you probably know, "Worms" rhymes with "storms", not with worms, but it would spoil the joke. The dry German expression is "Reichstag zu Worms".
Love it!
Brilliant and amazing and that's just the history.
@30:40 Excellent point!
His constipation - another Elvis parallel!
Sounds to me like Luther had hemorrhoids from being constipated and straining. This can be incredibly painful and bloody when you have a flare up, plus, because your severely constipated the poop loses most it's water and then forms large ball shaped stools and sometimes their the size of tennis balls.
Re Charles V. He also just happened to be the nephew of Catherine of Aragon which was to have future implications for the Reformation in England.
I think you should do an episode on Charles V
It's interesting to hear you say that Luther used simple, short, earthy German language in creating his translation of the Bible because many historians same exactly the same thing about Tyndale... the creator of the original English Bible, which would form the foundation of the King James version.
In the end, Luther opposes others who follow their consciences in directions different from his. So he himself demonstrates that when everyone follows their own conscience and 'lived experience' it leads to chaos and social breakdown.
Is that a copy of The Modern Antiquarian behind Mr Holland?
To mention: in Italy, at least, all marriage contracts and promises were, at least figuratively, described as being affixed to the cathedral door in a given small town, so maybe it wasn’t such a big deal for Luther to place his document where it allegedly was?
A lot of stuff on Luther himself and the, shall we say, peculiarities of his psyche but this cannot explain the success of the Protestant cause within the Empire. Much more needs to be said about the political tensions within the Empire as the Hapsburgs attempted to increase Imperial control over the territory as well as the socio-economic developments in Europe at the time that created a receptive audience for the reformed religions.
I really appreciate the focus on Luther. I feel like everyone else covers the other stuff with only a token mention of the guy that lit the match that broke the camels back.
Tom and Dominic's interaction over the history of Martin Luther and the medieval Roman Catholic Church is undoubtedly entertaining with their chosen array of "trifle" tidbits. However, a possible good analogy to how The Rest is History is covering Martin Luther and the Reformation would be a historical discussion of World War II without ever mentioning J. Robert Oppenheimer, the development of the Atomic Bomb, and the devastation of the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which broke the will of the Japanese military.
I beseech you to never post a thumbnail like that again
The thumbnail of dom brought me here. Well done.
It's hard not to think that there was a kind of repressed demand for some defiance to the Roman Catholic church in Europe - that this was all bubbling under the surface. This "indulgence" stuff seems very transparent and risible (thinking of Canterbury Tales' Pardoner with his pig bones), It was only a few years later that Henry VIII made the break. In some ways it's surprising that they kept the lid on it as long as they did.
"Let's not get sidetracked" 😂
Why not more about Erasmus?
And a horrific attitude towards women. I am an Irish American and I have always seen Luther as very similar to Russian Alexander Kerensky. I have a much higher opinion of Nicholas II than most people because he tried everything in his power to stop WWI. WWI was NOT the Great War, World War II was the Great War of Good vs. Evil, WWI was the Stupid War. And I am still angry that Serbia didn't pay for the evil they wrought. Kerensky was stupid and continued the Czar's policies, basically unchanged. And got exactly the same result. Rasputin had almost convinced Nicholas II to call for a Peace Conference. Martin Luther demanded change and the proceeded to not make things better, simply implementing different problems. Intolerance is something every person in the American South knows, because, as America's Great Lawyer, Clarence Darrow said, it was the most religious and least christian place on earth.
Loving the Sandbrookian "oh" face in the thumbnail
Insofar as Luther was a man following his religious conscious and willing to forfeit his own life for what he believed to be the divine truth, I find him admirable, however I find the desecration of religious imagery by his rampaging followers to be sad, crass, and foolish in the extreme. It is all too easy to destroy. It is lazy to destroy. Destroying works of great beauty, especially those that were the result of hundreds of years of work by people who were filled with adoration for God, is despicable.
It reminds me of Mao's nasty little gangs of feckless children, storming about and destroying the beautiful artifacts of Chinese culture in the bloodbath called the "Cultural Revolution". Whether it is Mao, Cromwell, or Luther, those who destroy art, those who burn books, those who can only express their stunted minds and unimaginative emotions through desecration are, in my opinion, the vermin of history.
Topple a corrupt church hierarchy? Sure! But for fuck's sake, leave the art alone!
I am always torn by this as both a deeply religious man and a lover of art and history. On one hand "leave the art alone" but on the other it isnt just art is it? It is in it's very purpose a desecration of God's will and in the bible He commands such things be destroyed all the time.
@@williamjenkins4913
If you are going to follow the Old Law, then you must follow all of it.
The Wor in Worms is pronounced like the wor in worn.
The most amazing coup is that Luther died in his own bed. I suspect that if Luther had lived in this era, some loon would have shot him for being a heretic.
The words of wisdom echoes throughout time: the left can’t meme!
ATTABOY, LUTHER !!
but also a negative aspect surfaced , guys - that Luther translated the Greek version which however was a *corrupt* version , produced by the sanhedrin since 250 BC in Alexandria , of the original scroll (-of prophets) . In all prophets God warns 'that Esau will change my words because he hates you' and calls that "the scroll will be sealed [=corrupted] until the days of the end" . Hence the first chapters of Revelation describe 'the 7 churches' as "the future of the West for the next 2000 years" where 'Pergamum' is "the Reformation" :
[though that section is also corrupted , like much of the NT as well] there is no "throne of + satan" (in the Pergamon church) butit is about "the word of + God" (thronos=logos) ,
and Christ warns them to not copy the corrupt scroll -- which however they did .
God ays in prophets about this to us [sic] : "your (1500 AD-) fathers will not listen to me , and produce the wicked one (KJV)", and its not hard to see how only in the end days the réal scroll will be restored - which is the moment "that Christ removes the seals from the scroll" , read : the KJV is exposed as corruption .
Even the metahistory hów the scroll came to Alexandria in the first place , is extremely interesting - apart from the content of the original scroll , having mindblowing themes .
You re both very pleasant to listen / watch also because you clearly enjoy it ; )
39:06 🐶
littledog
I concur with Luther that farting is more effective than praying.
I was promised a talking horse.
Charles V, friend of the show?
No mention of Erasmus?
@15:40 Ugh, ok, no, the comparison to Alexei Navalny is irrelevant and absurd.
Aww, did it make your beloved Putin look bad?
To constipate or not constipate ,that…..
Is there anything to be said of Luther’s work whereby he and other Germans were also displaying their rancor of having to obey Italians in Rome?
Not the subjective “Living my truth!” The exact opposite, the objective “Living God’s truth.” The scriptures.
But we can't all agree on what God's truth is. So therefore everyone has their own conscience and conviction they stand behind.
Luther was basically just a bit mad. If only he had not become a monk! The Christian world would never have been torn apart. Those who followed him on his trail of destruction are even more culpable than him, since he obviously had intense mental health issues…
What, thinking for yourself is mental illness? Not.
There was no swing. Luther saw himself as a conservative pushing back against Roman liberalism, not a revolutionary fighting to overturn sacred tradition.
Luther was not "living his truth." He was preaching what he thought the word of God taught. He wasn't standing on his own opinions, his own ideas, his own preferences. Just as much as any Catholic abjures their own understanding for their understanding of what the Church teaches, Luther was completely abandoning his own ideas and clinging only to what he understood the Scriptures to teach.
An unfortunate reference to Navalny.
Tom has a Habsburg chin. And his name is Holland. Own up Tom ...
Is the guy on the left intentionally trying to appear like a monk?
Babies eat worms, snot, chocolate could be easily mistaken for shhhh.
The thumbnail gives fellow kids energy. Kinda cheesy, but cool.
I appreciate the history by why can't you people get it right about faith alone is about Jesus, not the Bible. The host doesn't seem to want to get the premises of the question right.
As I suggested in my comments with #3, Tom and Dominic (and the producers) seem to go out of their way to avoid mention of Erasmus, the Pope's intellectual assassin, his great publication The Diatribe, and Luther's response, The Bondage of the Will.
"The Bondage of the Will is fundamental to an understanding of the original doctrines of the Reformation. It has been called "the Manifesto of the Reformation." The exchange between these two men was "the opportunity to give major treatment to what Luther saw as the very heart of the gospel. The matter under debate was the grace of a sovereign God. Luther affirms man's total inability to save himself and the sovereignty of Divine grace in his salvation. In making this affirmation, he explains and upholds the doctrine of justification by faith and defends predestination as determined by the foreknowledge of God."
By contrast, the Roman Catholic Church's dogmatic system (religious totalitarianism) was an elaborate scheme of WORKS AND MERIT. Even though it's been over 500 years since Luther, Catholicism (similar to Islam) finds ways, sometimes violent, to persecute those who "leave the fold" or speak out against their denominational authority. I can provide details for anyone wishing to hear of the not-so-subtle fallout of the "iron fist in a velvet glove."
Violent ways to persecute those who leave nowadays? Yes, please, give us examples. Religious totalitarianism similar to Islam, indeed... I have been living as a Catholic in a post protestant country for over 20 years, so I'm well used to the contempt that happens every now and then, but sometimes it still surprises me.
Except for Islam, where its violence is a fundamental axiom to exterminate "unbelievers" (non-Muslims), Catholicism (the totalitarian "iron fist in a velvet glove" often forms alliances with secular powers. This can be clearly seen in both South and Central American countries. The local priests and bishops will "look the other way" when law enforcement targets Protestant sects or Evangelicals. These countries do not share America's historic or contemporary application of "separation of church and state." In the case of "cultural Catholicism," (do you understand how it differs from other forms of Catholicism?), American Catholic parents during the '60s viewed any children converting to Protestant Evangelicalism as "joining a cult." "Deprogrammers" at the time often relied on the secular psychiatric profession to classify biblical (historical Protestant) views of spiritual experiences (e.g., 1 Corinthians 2:6-16) as psychotic episodes. Children received heavy doses of psychotic drugs, much like what went on in the former Soviet Union to persecute political/religious prisoners. This form of persecution still takes place. I could go on, but it's unnecessary. @@gosiachaaban2484
Not going to lie, as a Catholic I feel a tad vindicated not liking him to hear he chucked a dog out a window.
Ah, I've noticed a particular increase in the production value! 😂
Science isn't done by consensus but religion is. 😇
I like these podcasts but you need a proper theologian on because at certain points you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting Luther and what Protestants means by Sola Scriptura
They are reading modern evangelicals mind as Luther's. Huge anachronism
These thumbnails for zoomers are obnoxious, but this one made me laugh like crazy.
Luther is beginning to remind me of Lafayette and his militia and his republican kiss he gave to the citizen king. Balancing between revolution and reaction.
For the American audience that doesn’t understand British slang what does shitting monks mean?
a monk having a shit - its not a figure of speech
Was that Luther swinging?
1 like = 1 prayer 🙏
Greta episode, I have one request: Please don't pronounce the English th-sound in German names. Luther is pronounced with a sharp t. The th-sound doesn’t exist in German.
Fair point, however our hosts are English, not German. Should they also pronounce all english words of Germanic origin (most of the language) with this German pronunciation? I would say no.
I would also say no, but this is the name of a person. I would for exmaple pronounce the A- in Tom Hollands name with the English A-sound and not the German one , even when speaking German.
In Germany my name is Yohan, in English it's John
My guess is, in translation the spelling as well as pronunciation is different
Did anyone other than yours truly catch Tom’s mocking giggle of Dominic’s use of “elect” at the very end? Telling?
Dominic and the production crew clearly shill for Catholicism. I’m not sure about Tom. Yet, both avoid the more serious issues like Luther’s taking aim at Catholic heresy and documented sexual practices. For example, Augustine had two concubines, the first was truly a common law wife and they had a son. Augustine’s mother spent the women back to Africa. When Augustine was 30, his mother chose a more acceptable wife to be. She was 12. Augustine entered the monastery before consummation.
The Catholic hierarchy is Ancient Rome kept intact.
Worse figure then even Marx