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South Africans versus Rommel
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- Опубліковано 3 лис 2022
- South Africans versus Rommel
With David Brock Katz
Part of a series of shows to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the battle of El Alamein on WW2TV
• El Alamein - 80th Anni...
After bitter debate, South Africa, a dominion of the British Empire at the time, declared war on Germany five days after the invasion of Poland in September 1939. Thrust by the British into the campaign against Erwin Rommel's German Afrika Korps in North Africa, the South Africans fought a see-saw war of defeats followed by successes, culminating in the Battle of El Alamein, where South African soldiers made a significant contribution to halting the Desert Fox's advance into Egypt. This is the story of an army committed somewhat reluctantly to a war it didn't fully support, ill-prepared for the battles it was tasked with fighting, and sent into action on the orders of its senior alliance partner. At its heart, however, this is the story of men at war.
David Brock Katz started as a Chartered Accountant, financial adviser and businessman. A strong interest in military history and active military service with a commando unit involved in internal stability produced an opportunity to formalise my military education through the South African Military Academy. His historical adventures have led to specialising in South African military history of the 20th century, mainly in the area of strategy and operational art as practiced by South African generals on campaign in Africa. / davebrockkatz
South Africans Versus Rommel: The Untold Story of the Desert War in World War II by David Brock Katz
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My uncle my father’s eldest brother fought in South Africa defence force Paul Greyling. He came back from the war not ever able to fit into society again. Never even received a pension and I spent many days listening to his stories because he lost all trust in humanity but played his guitar with a mouth accordion mounted to the guitar playing both at same time. I loved listening to his music sitting at his feet when I was little. So great full for the effort you have taken to bring us this wonderful opportunity to learn more even though it’s now in my old age.
My grandfather`s father too. We should not have been involved in the World War`s and especially not to help the British that killed 63 women and children. We blame Jan Smuts for that. He was more Brit than South African.
Very interesting coverage of the South African involvement in the N Africa campaigns from David. My takeaway from this presentation is how Boer style tactics irritated the British as much during WWII as they had done during the Boer wars. Another great episode from WW2TV.
More light shed on a very important and practically forgotten aspect of the war. Quite apart from the SA Army the SAAF was a major part of the Desert Air Force and a huge contribution to final victory in North Africa. 6 SA Armoured Division fought in Italy the first SA formation to fight in Europe since 14-18. Rhodesia and South Africa were major bases for aircrew training. All this and more deserves to be remembered!
Good to hear Dave's strong Jo'burg (Joies) accent. Impressive discussion, excellent presentation David. I too served in the South African Army ( '74 '75 ), followed by years of yearly camps, as did 4 of my brothers. ( Airforce, NMR, SAI, Signals ) My father served in the Natal Mounted Rifles, a Staff Sergeant, during WW2. They were engaged in vigorous combat with an Italian contingent during the Battle of El Alamein. Furiously hurling mortars at each other during the conflict. My father was speaking with a senior officer, strongly recommending they move their camp. Imminent probably the enemy would land a few mortars within the perimeter of their camp. While communicating, a shell landed to his right. He instinctively lifted his right arm to protect his head. Shrapnel tore into his arm, almost removing it completely. He was sent to Cairo for the appropriate medical treatment before being transported back to South Africa, where he remained in the Army, training Zulu volunteers for war in North Africa. My oldest brother was a tank commander, took part in conflict in Angola. They kicked Cuban butt, arrived at the outskirts of Luanda and the CIA instructed them to return to South Africa.
Add the South African perspective to the list, amazing show and very well done.
Amazing series of lectures from a fantastic group of diverse lecturers. The depth of analysis, information and opinion is spot on. It’s certainly vastly broadened my appreciation of how the Allies snatched victory from the jaws of defeat in North Africa. Can’t wait for more of this 👍
Thank you Malcolm
Simply outstanding. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from this fantastic presentation.
Glad you enjoyed it!
My great grandfather faught at El Alamein. I never knew our impact there but for shows like these. My grandfather very recently told me that his father came face to face with Rommel after being captured and imprisoned there. A tenacious man as he was he escaped out of prison. He died an alcoholic.
War has a long term impact on those who participate. Thanks for sharing Mickelsie
Today was the completion of two weeks of amazing shows, each building on the others and there will be a panel discussion on Monday. I knew nothing of the South Africans contributions, David Brock Katz provided fantastic detail and analysis and in a very approachable and engaging style, History at it's Best. This series has given me a real appreciation of the importance of the Battles at El Alamein and North Africa in general. They are studies in command/political issues, leadership and human relationships at all levels for the major combatants. Do yourself a favor and watch them all. Paul and David Thank you.
I simply wish to second this.
Woody/David, Thanks for such an interesting presentation! Good to hear the South African perspective!
Woody - 29 nations of presenters. One of the reasons why your channel is so successful!
Regards,
Bob
Another excellent discussion, as a Brit it has been fascinating hearing the perspective of the other allied forces. Would like a similar presentation on the Indian contribution.
I tried to find a suitable Indian expert
@@WW2TV if I remember right, you have a had a few shows about Indian soldier/pilots in ww2
Great show! Love to hear the SA perspective.
It was great to hear the South African perspective on the war in North Africa. I am really grateful to Paul for giving these diverse voices a platform to share their valuable research and insights.
My Second Great Grand Grandfather served the Union Defense Force and was captured while fighting in Italy. He was sent to Tobruk POW camp. I recently uncovered a document in the British National Archives stating they were looking for him and they realized he was missing. He therefore returned home after the war thanks to the Brits who liberated the camp.
Love this! Thank you for the amazing chat on a forgotten part of South African history. I had a family friend who was a member of the South African 6th Armoured brigade and boy did he have some stories to tell. First time stumbling across your channel and love the effort that went into this video.
Wonderful presentation by David. Learned do much. Would love to hear more from David. Many thanks
Very interesting show, thank you, gentlemen!!
What a great guest!
The highlights of the contribution by South Africa to the WW2 , in my opinion , came from the SAAF , and in particular the two fourteen baggers : on 3 July 1942 , 14 Stukas and 1 ME 109 taken out above Alamein with no loss to SAAF ….. a big moral booster to the troops on the ground . Known as the Stuka party . Secondly the action at Cape Bon on 22 April 1943 when 14 Gigants were taken out . This ended the Africa Corps air bridge to Tunisia . One must recognize all the others involved : vectoring onto targets , top cover , providing the fighters etc.
BTW the Anglo-Portuguese alliance is the oldest in the world starting in the 14th century.
Thank you so much. We never hear about the South African contribution in either War. However the South African manoeuvre warfare doctrine is in a sense a “ moral” way to fight and win a war. Minimise casualties ( even on the enemy) cut their supply lines and demoralise, to the point where they surrender and the military objective is achieved. No soldier or his direct officers want you to waste human life… even his “enemy’s”. To kill another human life takes a massive psychological toll on a decent human being. Rather hot, run and take prisoners rather than butcher each other like beasts. Obviously psychopaths may have a different view… but the average human … who does the dying.. just wants to live in some form of peace!
Thanks to David Katz for adding nuance. The political situation in South Africa was fragile and the forces sent north were fighting alongside national armies which had invaded the Boer Republics only 4 decades earlier. Even General Pienaar himself had been interned in a British Concentration Camp. The potential for friction was huge.
We as South Africans should honour our soldiers, English-speaking, Afrikaans, Bantu and Asian/Indian that fought for a common goal to support the Commonwealth/Allies in both WWi (distinguished in the Defence of Delville Wood as part of the Battle of the Somme) and in WWii (as discussed here) as well as later battles against Communism during the Cold War, we should not be blinded by the current prevailing anti-colonial sentiment.
Most English-speaking South Africans prior to 1994 are aware of our involvement during WWII.
What is often forgotten is the East African Campaign that freed up the approaches to the vital Suez Canal and the Axis threat to the Middle East oilfields represented by East and North Africa.
If the Afrikaans majority were in power prior to 1939, SA would at best have been neutral, and at worst an active Axis member, denying the Southern African ports and sea lane to the Allies.
The Anglo-Portuguese Alliance or Mutual-Defence Treaty of 1373! Ratified by Both countries at the Treaty of Windsor, 1386 & still in political, military & legal effect in both nations up till today!! Effectively, in ongoing existence for the past 649 years, the longest known mutually-ratified defence treaty in recorded human history! 🇬🇧🤝🇵🇹
Could easily argue way longer than 649 years as never been at war. Just their nearest neighbour not so much.
@@kennethhammond4028 : Except maybe the 60 years-period between 1580 to 1640, when Portugal had been then effectively invaded, & the native Portuguese rule usurped & subjugated by Spanish forces, initially under the crown & government of Felipe II & after his death, continued by his successors between those dates! Although technically speaking, when the Spanish Armada had sailed & gave battle in 1588 & at later battles on land or sea too, during these times, you could justifiably argue that some Portuguese forces also deployed & actively fought against English troops or sailors then too!
I loved this. The South Africans were motorised light infantry. Surely a very useful component of a desert army. The Germans had a Light Division. Why didn't we?
My oupa fought in North Africa. He never talked about it so i had no idea the extent of the fighting but listening to this programme i am not surprised that he kept much to himself.
Thank you guys so much for shedding light on this side of the war and South African contribution.
Baie Dankie
Loved this presentation. The Sidi Rezegh Battles and Crisis In The Desert are two of the best books on the desert war, have read them both several times and will keep in my library to the end. This was a Great background on doctrine, politics and people. Wish I could watch these live to join in the comments. Keep up the great work.
Territorial Acquisition ... first time I'm hearing this. Interesting and fascinating.
Thank you for the history lesson.
Great show .
Good stuff, I'd like to hear more from Mr BK. On the subject of East Africa I would argue that the important SA contribution was transport (Ford SA supplied an astonishing 16k vehicles to both fronts) and ancillary services (engineers, medical, communications... even their own radar). I look forward to the East Africa week!
That would be great
So interesting listening to your conversation..David has a wealth of knowledge and brilliant analysis of the subject at hand.
He certainly does Myron
Interesting and informative, thanks. My grandfather served in El Alamein with the South African forces.
My father was in the NMR South African 1st Division. He went through Abbysinia and the Western Desert. He was at Gazala and the Gazala Gallop. Just before El Alamain , he was No 1 Scout., where he used to go on Recce, by crawling through the Emeny lines to pin ploint positions behind the enermy lines and crawl back . He was wounded on El Alamain night and sent back to South Africa, where he sent some time in Addington Hospital and then discharged.
Thanks for sharing your father's story
In my humble opinion The Western Desert is misnamed. It should have been North Africa. I lived on the western edge of The Sahara for ten years - Mauritania & Mali, with excursions into The South Western Sahara, Southern Algeria & South Western Libya.
Very interesting. Great insight into Pienaar and his motives and actions - he gets a bad rap in other sources but this sheds light on reasons making them understandable. I would however respectfully disagree that Paulus had any real opportunity to break out from Stalingrad. It was only mentioned here briefly as the focus is obviously on North Africa so i won't elaborate. Very enlightening discussion about the South Africans role of which i knew only a little. Thank you.
Nice to see some of this side of the history being shown for all the nations that where involved! My Grand father was awarded the Military Cross after the fighting in North Africa and El Alamein specifically, some of the few stories I still remember always amazed me, still have his mini chess set they used with the blood stains on it! ( Was a Sherman tank commander)
Only been listening for about 18 minutes. And I must say thank you. Keep up the great work. I'm a bit late for this but thank you I'm here. I live in California the United States of America. I'm not rich nor famous. Just thankful for what you do.
@@tomcarl8021 you're welcome Tom.
My grandad was in the 5th (armoured). Lovely to hear and understand more about what he experienced.. He didn't talk much his experiences which leaves my history loveing brother and I keen to learn more. Really enjoyed listening to this, please tell us more!
Thank you for this excellent, excellent interview. I've learned a lot, particularly about development of SAn doctrine and relations between SAn and Brit commands, and I'm only halfway through it. I'll be looking for David Katz's book as soon as I've finished.
Can't wait for the discussion on lessens learned and for examples of what was learned. Also, November is looking like a fabulous month delving into the misery of war in China on its citizens and land.
Thanks Richard
Would love to see a video on South Africa's involvwment in Italy
We will get to that one day
Would also love to see this. I visited Ancona War Cemetery in Italy this week, where 79 South Africans lay buried 🙏 and not too much info available :(
That would be an interesting one as Americans kept on calling us back as we moved too fast and were taking out SS machine gun nest at a very fast pace.
Thanks for a unique perspective from someone who as actually served in the South African Military, but has actually researched their history as well. I had never thought of the connection to the Commandos of the Boer War having such an influence. I wonder was this a cultural phenomena from the Afrikaners way of war? The Dutch influence of the original settlers? In any case it is a Germanic trait nonetheless, although this is a very generalized viewpoint on my part. I only know that I was very impressed with this presentation!
Can you say more about “Germanic traits” and what they are?
Two big items I have learned from WW2TV. The Kiwis invented the stonk and the British Army in WW2 was a doctrinal disaster viz a vis armor, artillery, infantry used in combined arms attacks.
We're British officers trained to be that dense?
The saving grace is that the British got much better
The SAAF squadrons fought in North Africa then via Sicily and Italian campaign.
Very interesting learning more about South African involvement. A section of WWII history often ignored.
This video will also make an interesting drinking game. Have a shot every time the word "doctrine" is used.
Excellent historiography and well balanced
The "culture" argument about German manoeuvre doctrine is very interesting and yet somehow mysterious and intangible. When I heard (for the first time yesterday on this amazing channel) about Kirkman and New Zealand artillery barrages, I immediately went back to what the British had developed from 1915 to 18. Short, controlled barrages, sophisticated counter-battery fire where the enemy guns are saturated rather than destroyed, development of fuses (like the 106 fuse) to rip barbed wire to shreds, sound ranging and flash spotting to locate enemy batteries to avoid ranging shots and maintain the element of surprise, and more besides (they could have done well if they mixed high explosive rounds with gas shells but of course the war never turned chemical except in Asia and in the Holocaust).
In a way, this British method of waging war is also something cultural. And if we keep in mind that Britain traditionally wages war through blockades and long wars of attrition, we can understand more why they tend to win wars and the Germans to lose them.
Fighting like a boer is no excuse-they had faced the Italians in abyssinia-they knew what they were up for when they headed north
That was brilliant.
Wow, your series undermines SA involvement in operation Lightfoot big time, and in 2nd el-Alemien Paul. SA troops weren't "lagging behind" nor "protected", they reached their objective-Oxalic line in good time, on par with the ANZAC troops. The 51 highland div. never took their objectives in operation Lightfoot( in good time) The reason the truth is not really well known, the British military historians skewed the truth! The 51st took extra heavy casualties in comparison with the other divs. 1SA div. was ordered north there after to mask the ground that the NZ and the 51st took, and they were involved in overcoming strong points that the highland div. didn't take in Lightfoot. The death toll after 2nd alamien for the South Africans was 734( higher than the Anzac's) My knowledge on 2nd alamien comes from War in the Desert by Neil Orpen yr 1970.(Desert war veteran officer) and other SA historical writing. Thanks Paul
Casualty figures are wrong. Australia suffered 5,500 casualties of which 1,259 were deaths at El Alamein.
@@malreid749 the Australian death figure you gave is over the two battles at el Alamien
This war philosophy sounds a lot like how we play rugby.
I stand to be corrected but the Australian Charter came about following the incident in the Anglo Boer war surround Breaker Morant. Breaker Morant was charged with the murdering of Boer prisoners and civilians. Faced court martial and found guilty. In his defense he claimed that the order to shoot prisoners was an order from the senior officers. This could not be proven. Despite an appeal to Kitchener, Morant and Handcock were executed by firing squad. Once the news leaked out the Australian public and government were in an uproar. The government took up the matter with Britan with the end result being the Charter.
My great grandfather fought in this war i think.. we have only a pic with a whole lot of writing and letterS
C.P.L J.A KETTLEDAS - his surname😊
NO. 284,886
20th squadron bomber.. G.P.O.durban..
M.E.F
U.D.F
Wish i could learn more about him
His analysis of Monty is partially wrong-Rommel was still able to swing around the southern flank to attack alam halfa ridge or go for the fuel dumps south of alex( which is what he should have risked)-the southern flank was porous and not closed off to an advance from Rommel
The way South Africa's military doctrine was explained, I'm inclined to ask.
Did the South Africans with their style of fighting ( military doctrine) have an influence on the founder of the British SAS?
Possibly, certainly Lewes and Stirling had fought alongside the South Africans
Excellent talk, thank you. Regarding General Pienaar, based on your description, how can the man's leadership style not be considered cowardly? I would say that one can do all the right things to get into a leadership position in the military, but when the day of combat is actually faced, those moments are all that really matters. Yes, I understand where Pienaar was coming from, but that doesn't change the fact that he behaved cowardly. He left his allies hanging out to dry. He disobeyed orders. Where other commanders may have been behaving boldly taking unnecessary risks, Pienaar was so risk-averse as to be indistinguishable from cowardice. Sorry, but that's my opinion of the man.
Agree
Gripping stuff as a Saffer and SADF veteran
He can make all the excuses he likes but it was the slowness of Pinaar to move north and coordinate with the British tanks with the british armour that caused the difficulties with the italians.Pinaar was a traitor-he failed to obey orders
And this iscwhy History is a matter of opinions
ua-cam.com/video/LlOZdrvnIfk/v-deo.html
All credit to the South africans for helping us fight the nazis during world war 2
They were very happy to retreat at night... Just didn't like to advance or attack....
Jan Smuts saved Great Britain.
How many South African soldiers came home at the end?
lots of fights in cairo between the Australians and south africans-the ozzies called them pale because they had bolted all the way from trobruk to cairo and alex-the Australian farmers enjoying the fights. the surrender of trobruk is a disgrace and a stain
Yup, the classic punch up started when an Aussie offered a chair in a bar with the words, 'Ere mate, 'ave a seat, you must be knackered after running all the way from Tobruk.'
My father fought in ww 2. Whent up north africa with 6 disvion.
Excellent
Why weren't the British doing tank recovery like the Germans. The Americans did tank recovery.
Of course the British did tank recovery, it all depends though on whether recovering a knocked out tank is worth it. Distance, effort, time etc. Its basically like triage
They were often accused, sadly, of not having the bottle to get in there and retrieve anything.
@@albertarthurparsnips5141accused by whom ,Germans?.
@@BingoFrogstrangler I did not write that I agreed with those sorts of accusations ( I don’t, incidentally ). Simply, that they exist. Or, existed. From US, Polish, & Soviet sources, mainly.
The British War Dogma - Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. It is pleasant and honourable to die for one's country. Wilfred Owen.
Remember Smuts was a boer general and fought the english
Yes we said that in the show
Sure, I get it you don't agree with your order's, but why hang out your allies to dry... Leaves a bad taste in your allies mouth, so if you won't help them, why should they help you... Seems totally opposite to how the Australians and New Zealand pitched in
I wonder if the alienation that south Africa has seen both in WW1 WW2 and during apartheid, colours how they seem to have this attitude of only looking out for themselves as no one else will... I can understand it like that I guess. As the presenter said, they really were only helping the British to get more land
Worst thing that ever happened to South Africa was the British colonisation
South Africa always gets overlooked in WW2 despite contributing just as much as the Aussies and Kiwis.
From all lot of histories i read the Sa ,Aussie, NZ ,Indian forces ,seemed to bear more than thier share of the fight ,then the Brits got the glory. Even worse shafting from Mc Arthur in the Pacific.
@@randymcfarland8585You are so correct . I’m South African we are totally overlooked by the U.S. and UK BUT the Indians are even more overlooked. I believe without the Indians the British Empire would have lost BOTH world wars!
Sorry. I simply cannot concur. Neither SA nor NZ were subjected to any of the following : the threat of imminent invasion ; the occupation by an Axis power of almost all adjacent, neighbouring territories ; consistent & relentless aerial bombardment & coastal naval assault by an Axis power. The Commonwealth of Australia confronted each & every one of these woes.
@@albertarthurparsnips5141 What does that have to do with the contribution to the war effort in Europe and Africa?
Nothing. And….everything. If you care to look at the comment I was replying to, you’ll note, one hopes, that theatres of warfare were not mentioned. At all. Do you understand that ? What was mentioned was the respective contribution of particular nations ( eg. South Africa ) and the response to this, the abscence of respective appreciation or understanding. There. That ought to clarify things. Ta ta. 😊
Great chat, but Paul don't be confused, the Battle of Gazala was a British defeat through incompetence not a South African one! Geez, face the facts. Gen.Klopper was given fake news that a mobile force from the 8th army (from Gen.Richie) was on it's way to help, hence the lateness of breakout order but by then the speed of events on ground caught the South Africans.( War in the desert by Niel Orpen - citation) Who side was Richie on? Ha Ha. As I said the SA 2nd div. was thrown under the bus. Who was worse? Gen. Pienaar or the British high command? I think it's the latter. Old Chap! At least Pienaar was successful in battle, in certain actions. Thanks Paul and David
I agree, but others disagree and blame Pienaar and the South Africans - indeed look at some of the previous comments here. I'm with you that the SA force was thrown under the bus, other viewers and historians think differently
Don't forget that Churchill was pushing and pressing for action and resolute (read stubborn) when he wasn't fully aware of the logistics and problems of fighting in North Africa. I defy MOD's opinion on waging war in The Sahara. I spent ten years there mostly alone and travelled some 90 000 km by foot, another 25 000 by vehicle and around another 20 000 by camel. I arrived in good health and left in good health. I am good to go now. I did not suffer at all from the same infections and illnesses as did the 8th Army, Italians & DAK.
Who surrendered at Tobruk.
@@BingoFrogstrangler "surrendered" is a misnomer. Rather the truth of the matter is Rommel took Tobruk though an attack in the southeast perimeter defended by the British-Indian army. The disposition of the troops defending Tobruk was wrong because of the late change of plan not to abandoned the port, as earlier decided by the British to abandoned Tobruk. Not only that but Ritchie communicated falsely to Klopper about a mobile force to help the break out. British command failure. Don't believe the official narrative from the British official history, they have a interest in fudging the truth. I don't blame them!
Anyone care to comment on TIKs obsessive drive to destroy the reputation of D. Piennar ?..
I don't care about anything Tik has to say
@@WW2TV That’s a relief, to be frank ! But I didn’t expect that you would, of course. His obsessive pursuit of ( amongst others ) Piennar was the antithesis of the historians approach, wasn’t it…
Tik does some good stuff, but his channel has become something of an echo-chamber for his own views, some of which are a tad bizarre IMHO
@@WW2TV You’re spot on, there. I cannot recall the last time ( any time ? ) I settled down to an ostensibly WW2 - focused channel only to find the latest video to be either ( yet another ) interminable tirade about ‘ Marxism = Fascism / Nazism ‘, or, badgering schoolchildren NOT to study,..the list goes on.
Yep my point exactly. He is doubling down on his the Nazis were socialists BS, and its not a good look. I think it's why he doesn't have the peer credibility I think he craves
South aficans not very keen on fighting.
What? They fought brilliantly at times