WOWZA BOBOWZA Abel is in danger and he needs YOUR help! He needs more macca for strong demons from the auction, to afford them he needs your credit card number, those wacky 3 digits on the back, and the expiration month AND year! But act fast, he can’t crush these demons alone!
nice vid, very critical but i absolutely get being harsh on smth out of love and your devotion to the game shows even tho it takes some reminding that its your fav megaten game at times. it's one of my favs too and i never know what to expect going into megaten vids like this but the structure was pretty satisfying to follow, lots of content here in terms of actual substantive commentary and it was a good idea going character by character in the general direction of the games plot/as these characters related to each other and shared strengths and flaws since it is a game largely driven by character action and growth. as someone who always goes chaos on a first playthru i liked naoya out of the gate and having learned how to tune out the friendship stuff by playing apoc like twice beforehand, i liked naoyas 8th day as a cool victory lap cementing naoya and abel as brothers taking on god which i find personally compelling. but replaying the game on amanes route really made him my fav desu character, really one of my fav megaten characters overall. the 8th days in general act as a character study of naoya, showing him from different perspectives which is so cool, im almost tempted to call him my favorite unofficial louis cypher of the series. but as a result of giving the time and focus of a whole other route to him, amane feels so shafted and, having tried to like her a lot because i wanted to be more fair to law reps in general, it is really sad to me lmao. her character did feel complete but i still really wanted to see her upbringing and philosophy as a stronger driving force behind your cause as messiah on the 8th day, even tho its there in a few scenes i just wanted more focus on her but naoya and kaido and honda stretch that day thin so many different ways its hard for her to do much, esp when youre pressed for time. still a wonderful game and it really makes me crave another megaten game like it just knowing the series strengths at writing both humans and demons, the synthesis between different mythologies its capable of, and this time system that is just so much better than personas, altho after smt5 and soul hackers 2 i have no faith in atlus right now
Solid video essay dude Though tbh I personally really vibed with Gin's route cause I first played the game during COVID, so I could 100% empathize with the feeling of just wanting things to go back to how they were
@@Hobbit_Optimist This was brought up in your video on Devil Survivor 2, but a lot of SMT games tend to implicitly advocate for the status quo, with Neutral routes typically being portrayed as the "right" option in contrast to the more extremist Law and Chaos routes. And while I agree that this is a problem that the series has (Especially in more recent entries like SMTV where the route that the game implicitly tells you is right just doesn't feel good at all), I'd argue that it actually works very well for the story that the first Devil Survivor is trying to tell. So much of the game before that had been dedicated to showing society fall apart as the situation in the lockdown slowly but surely spirals out of control. Tying into this, a lot of events with Yuzu and Atsuro have them talking about how they just wish they could go back to their old lives before the lockdown happened. In my opinion, Gin's route works well from a narrative perspective because, to me, it wasn't so much about the status quo being inherently good as it was the very natural reaction of "Fuck you and your war of Bel shit; I'm taking my life to how it was before you assholes did your lockdown." I think this idea is supported by the fact, while Naoya's and Amane's routes have Abel become the King of Bel and mankind's Messiah respectively, Gin's route has Abel seal away Babel and become a normal kid again. I got this route on my first playthrough, and it felt like a very organic way to finish the game as in my opinion it made perfect sense with what the game had been about up until then. It also just very much resonated with me as COVID was going on when I played it. I will concede though that this ending is definitely weaker if you consider Naoya's and Amane's eighth days in the Overclocked rerelease, which more thoroughly fleshed out humanity's situation after either ending, even showing humanity actively prospering after both of those endings. However in the context of the original game, I think it's a very organic way to finish off the game, as well as just the least risky option for humanity. I 100% agree with you though that Devil Survivor 2 does NOT handle the Neutral routes well at all, as Ronaldo has actual sound arguments for his position while the neutrals simply don't. Also as a side note, but I'm gonna have you disagree with you on the Belial worshipper event. Like yeah it may not be that important in the grand scheme of things, but it's legitimately creepy if you get it on your first playthrough.
@@riceyboi5215 That's a compelling argument. I'll admit I probably gave Gin's route too much shit for being a part of the troupe not just in SMT, but many stories in pop culture that shows the status quo as ideal, even though as you said Gins route handles it better than most other stories. If anything when you take into consideration Yuzu talking about how being a messiah or king of bel would mean you might never have a normal life again, Gins route is a lot more understandable. Abel's a 17 year old kid who never asked to have the weight of the world put on his shoulders and it's reasonable for him/the player to want to continue living their life.
@@Hobbit_Optimist idk if you read but the manga adaptation actually choose Gin route and gives a lot more backbone because Kazuya , the protagonist name in the manga, is all about going back to his normal life and bring Naoya with him because he doesn't care about the War of Bel or being Cain and Abel , he wants his normal life back and his cousin back. It work better because Kazuya talks in the manga..
@@alsaiduq4363 I did read the manga and understand the desire to return to a normal life, but I still think the game handles this idea better and the ending that explores this idea better is Yuzu’s ending (including the 8th day.) In Gin’s ending you still win the war of Bel and have Bels power, you just choose not to use it but who’s to say Abel won’t change his mind? I think Yuzu’s ending is better than Gin’s because it rejects the war of Bel entirely which is fair enough. Also I feel like the manga made Naoya into a petty bastard who wanted god dead by any means necessary and along with Kaido, Keisuke and Honda is less interesting than their game counterparts. The manga’s take on Gin’s ending does involve Naoya a little more but I still think all 8th days handle him and every other character besides maybe Midori better.
I love the Game but its good to hear counters to the general opinion about the game, how great it is.... It does have flaws but honestly i wish it would get ported along its sequel to modern consoles...so the subffrinchise doesnt die with dual screen gaming
This is a really good review. I really appreciate your nuanced perspective on characters such as Midori and Keisuke, they are not half as bad as they seem. Devil Survivor is an awesome game and this review really touched on how it could've been even better. Atsuro route sounds like the perfect beginning for a horror game!! I also really like Naoya he was really exciting and fun to see. Personally though I enjoyed a lot of the more 'useless' events, the Haru plot with Aya and the stalkers had me speechless. I like it
You wonder whether you were too harsh or too generous on Devil Survivor at the end of this video, and I've got to say you were far, far too harsh. The entire video essay seems contemptuous of the game, to the degree that the love you apparently have for it never shows through. It seems you've forgotten a lot about DeSu in the years since you've written these essays as well. While your structure is good and I think it's novel to attempt to go in depth and consider how even a series which is generally held in high regard within the MegaTen community could be improved, your methodology is careless. You act as if certain elements are more ridiculous and hackneyed than they actually are, given the game's tone and presentation, while often overlooking significant plot details or nuance that conflict with your negative impression. The game just straight up accounts for a lot of things you profess to be issues, so your criticisms are often unwarranted. This is doubly true because you acknowledge that the game had limited development time. Let me point out some major examples. 15:00 [Midori] The problem which causes Midori to be targeted by others isn't ultimately rooted in the obnoxious, chuunibyou way she's acting - that's just a symptom. She's not paying attention to the reactions of the people she's saving in the first place. Midori's seemingly selfless motivations are ironically undermined by her self-absorbed vanity, and she uses the fact that her intentions and the results of her actions are good to shut down any claims how she's going about things could be a mistake. She's thick-headed about it and refuses to listen to what exactly Keisuke and the party are saying, too, which is the primary reason many think she's stupid and annoying. She's more concerned with living her fantasy of saving people than the feelings of the people she's saving, so she doesn't notice that not all of them understand she's trying to protect them. Why would they, in the scramble and panic of a demon attack? Some of the mandatory battles actually give you the option to talk to the people you're rescuing from a demon attack to clarify your intentions and calm them down for precisely this reason. One of the early ones is particularly prominent, as doing it can prevent a mandatory battle later on. Clearly the game has nothing against you saving people, especially if you go about it in the right way. Even then, there are multiple battles where civilians leave the field with a comment condemning all demon tamers regardless, and other situations where people consider the party dangerous/malicious automatically. The demons themselves are a massive unknown to the civilian population for the most part, with most people working on more limited information than the playable characters. Demons are fucking surreal, say wild shit, and are noted to be able to disguise themselves as humans through shapeshifting or possession. It's no wonder some people jump to conclusions, especially in the heat of the moment, especially when they've had friends killed by demons already. Many people just want demons and demon tamers to not be a factor at all. They see demon tamers in general as aggravating the situation. And this is assuming they even know demon tamers exist yet; the dude who tells you where Midori is at the start of the 4th day doesn't, and that's part of the confusion. Midori is too caught up in her own little world to realize the way the wind is blowing. There seems to be an undercurrent of ridicule for DeSu1's use of the mob mentality throughout the video, such as at 14:28. You call its use of this as a plot device "generic" at 2:50 as well, but there's nothing new under the sun to begin with, and simple =/= bad. The game justifies this groupthink through the desperation of the scenario, and it makes sense. Could DeSu's exploration of this theme be more profound and impactful? Sure, but the game's use of it as it stands isn't nearly as stupid or flimsy as you imply. It's portraying a very human reaction to the situation in a somewhat abstract manner in keeping with its structure and using it to generate conflict. There is something of an onus on stories to be "more real than reality" in a sense and to have stronger justifications for character actions than "they did something stupid" even though people do stupid shit all the time, but the justifcation exists here. It makes sense. In the first place, there are just assholes in the world who want to take their anger and helplessness out on someone they can scapegoat and pin blame on. Keisuke's backstory highlights this as well. You see people jumping to conclusions and condemning others over false accusations in real life all the time for any number of reasons, such as to protect themselves or gain a sense of superiority, so how is the game stupid for portraying this very common human behavior? You can't just say something with a silly voice and pretend it's obviously dumb - that just makes you look dumb instead. But there _are_ characters who understand Midori's intentions and are thankful to her, which you even note at 15:20. You say "these are only thrown in after she decides to stop showing off" while glossing over the context that these people were saved _before_ she stopped showing off, and yet still were thankful to her, demonstrating that Midori's desire to save people was never wrong in and of itself. It's not that the writers didn't want to validate Midori's actions, as this is explicit validation of them, it's that she's being careless and treating a crisis like a game. It's a nuanced, fluid situation, which is why DeSu's plot gets praised: it does take the effort to explore multiple plausible reactions to the scenario. It doesn't interrogate those ideas extremely deeply, or in a way that really pulls at the heartstrings, but the story is sensible and engaging regardless. Like, is your problem that the info that plenty of people were cool with Midori is only given after her arc, and we'd otherwise only seen people scared of her up until then? Why? It's not implausible that this is just how things played out from the perspective of the playable party. Would it really have been that much more interesting if we knew Midori had additional validation for acting the way she was at that point in the story, when it can be inferred from this information we receive later? Maybe it'd be better if some people outside the PCs showed up to try to defend her at the start of the 4th day and then were cowed by the aggressors or something, but the main party are the only people with access to the Laplace Mail and thus aware an incident is happening they need to prevent. (Continued in next post.)
15:42 [Midori is received differently after joining the party] It's clear she's now working alongside you, and the main party is presented as acting with more discretion rather than outright looking for trouble. People still suspect demon tamers even after this point, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, but after a certain point the main group have a decent reputation. 15:56 [Alternatives to Midori's scenario as written] Unlike the ideas presented in your constructive criticism segment, these are not good suggestions and in fact make enormously less sense than the game does as is. Why would the JSDF suspect Midori in particular is the cause of the problem when they're backed by angels who, while concealing information from them, are still clearly feeding them decent intel? The JSDF at least understand there are numerous unrelated demon tamers making use of the comps, while it would show the angels as less competent if they mistakenly assumed some random cosplayer was the source of the demonic invasion rather than correctly discerning the War of Bel was the cause and acting on that. Even if the JSDF were to target Midori in particular, they would probably be making this assumption based on other people calling her a witch and accusing her of being the main source of the demons, which wouldn't solve your problem with people blaming Midori at all (and would be even dumber considering not even the people who attack her in-game consider her the primary problem, but merely emblematic of their issues with demon tamers as a whole). The lower ranking Shomonkai working with the JSDF to eliminate other comp users could be interesting, but there are plenty of complications to this idea as well. Namely, the Shomonkai actually presents its public face as peaceable and attempting to deter conflict, while the primary JSDF influence we see are either maintaining the barricade and not entering the quarantine, essentially the PC's allies (Izuna, Fushimi), or are the renegade JSDF unit which serves as a minor antagonist. The JSDF, being backed by angels, suspect the Shomonkai as a major factor in the current crisis, leaving the renegade unit as the only potential ally, and those guys are assholes who would be gunning for the Shomonkai demon tamers as well. Like, there are ways to write this idea, but it doesn't whatsoever solve your issues like you think it does... and your problem seems primarily to be that characters are acting rashly in high-stress situations, which isn't a valid complaint because it is in fact something people do. 21:33 [Keisuke] The entire point is that Keisuke is sympathetic, has considerable justification for his point of view, and you're not necessarily supposed to see him as entirely wrong. His mentality is only slightly twisted, and like Midori he's using the superficial righteousness of his motives to justify selfish actions. He's using power and violence to inflict his will on the world, essentially becoming much the same as the very people he despises. As justified as he is, his dialogue is clearly unhinged, and all of the reasons you note that you don't fully agree with him make it appropriate that you put a stop to him. The realization he comes to at the end of his arc is that he's acting in hatred to satiate his rage rather than better the world, and this is at odds with the kind of person Atsuro remembered him as and what he truly wants to do: protect people. Keisuke decides to change his path to pursue what he truly wanted in the first place. I wish you read into Midori's and Keisuke's characters and the implications of them as deeply as you did Kaido's, since their deals are even more explicit than his. The nuance of their situations seem to have slipped your memory over the years. I'm not sure who you're talking about when you say people give Keisuke too much shit, though. Are you talking about the characters or the playerbase? Most people I've heard from actually think Keisuke wasn't that far out of line. 23:04 [Bad shit Keisuke did you may've overlooked.] Keisuke is _very_ heavily implied to have killed members of Kaido's gang. The entire context of this is not elaborated on, but the Daemons are portrayed as attempting to accumulate power and using force to ensure they and the people under their protection are taken care of in the chaos of the lockdown. They try to avoid killing at first, but become more bloodthirsty as the days continue, especially after their members are killed (which shows Keisuke's agenda is just pushing those around him to further desperation and violence). Presumably, Yama killed the gangmembers for acting aggressively towards others even though they're also doing it for the benefit of people they care about or who've sided with them. This further highlights that Keisuke has in many ways stooped to the same level as those he's casting judgment on, as in his mind he's using deadly force to ensure the security of others as well. Once again, there is depth to the situation, as while neither side is strictly right, there's plenty of room to see where both are coming from. It's interesting to me and strikes me as a mistake that you began this section as a matter of "Kaido vs. Keisuke" but never elaborate on why both characters are at odds, since the fact Keisuke killed members of the Daemons is the entire reason Kaido is trying to hunt him down. 23:56 - 31:15 [Ideas for how to enhance story.] This is the best section of the video. I don't think _every_ take here is an outright improvement or necessary, but in general I agree the ideas presented here would be an improvement to the story at large. 31:55 [Beldr being evil] This is explained. Beldr went mad when his resurrection failed due to "the one old hag who refused to cry" preventing him from rising from Hel. Now he plans to make a "world of lament" so all humans would cry and he can finally be free (be restored to full power, apparently). It's a dark twist on the original Baldr, but it's definitely making use of his mythology and is more faithful than plenty of the nonsense in SMT4A. 32:20 [Beldr's real name is Baldr] The Throne of Bel is based on demons whose names derive in part from the _extremely_ widespread cognate "Baal," meaning "lord." This appellation has been applied to numerous pagan gods who were eventually demonized by Christian lore. I'm not sure why they chose to base the naming scheme around "Bel" instead of "Bal" or "Bael" or even just letting the demons keep their individualized names (although one assumes it was done for simplicity's sake), but in the comparative mythological framework that MegaTen runs off, there is definite sense in including Baldr in the Bel line-up. 32:24 [Beldr as a law-aligned demon] Sure, that'd be cool too. 37:00 [Overview of the endings] Your analysis of the endings is strange, because it's difficult to see where your personal opinion and gripes end and your actual criticisms begin. You act as if just because you don't personally agree with some of them, they're automatically stupid, when really they're just playing out the natural progression of the actions the player chose. What's important here is that the player was given all of these options to begin with and the game did a good job of following them to their logical conclusion. There's also a lot of nitpicks you have across these that are very easily explained. I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. There are many unfounded criticisms in this video. You rarely talk about what you like and are mostly just griping the entire time. If I were to determine whether or not I bought the game based on this video, I wouldn't, because it sounds like it's garbage and you hate it. You ignore the game's _many, many_ genuine virtues in favor of obsessing over a myriad of pretty negligible flaws, quite a number of which you've basically invented. This is an enormous problem with _all_ of your DeSu videos, and I fear these bad habits will cripple your video essays in the future unless you learn to take a more evenhanded approach.
@@Kageryushin I appreciate the feedback and I am aware of some of the faults with this video on top of some of the issues you pointed out, but I feel parts of this misunderstood what I was saying which isn't necessarily your fault. Some of the misunderstandings are my fault for writing in an unclear way. I'll try to clear up what I think are misunderstandings as I go but I'm not gonna respond to everything here, especially if I think you're right on the money. As far as Midori is concerned, (which seems to be most of these comments) I wasn't trying to say using the mob mentality troupe is always bad writing which I thought I said but maybe I didn't and given the contempt I had when talking about it you could be forgiven for thinking my intention was that the troupe is inherently bad. The main problem is that I think it's very weird to treat Midori like she's acting in a way that's fundamentally problematic compared to how you're party is acting. You're not wrong to say that Midori isn't considering the feelings of the civilians but I think it's weird that civilians are more likely to see Midori as a problem compared to your party, because for all her immaturities it's nearly impossible to mistake Midori's intentions. I get that this is a tense situation and yeah, sometimes people are just assholes as shown by most of the demon tamers you fight, but there's far more hate for Midori than there is appreciation or even neutrality for her and I'm not saying there needs to be widespread appreciation, too much would feel weird and unnatural, but the hate she get seems disproportionate. There is actually is actually another person within the mob that hunts Midori in the event where she joins you who question the necessity to hunt her and they get bullied into shutting up. The issue I have is that her intentions are far less ambiguous than your own. You can talk to civilians to try and calm them down but it's frankly easier to just kill all the demons before anyone gets hurt. You could say that's a callus way to play the game but if people are panicking, I imagine most wouldn't want to be anywhere near someone who summoned demons. It seems reasonable to assume that if people can be calmed down with a single sentence by people who carry demons like your party, then they can trust the person who says she's there to protect them to not be a threat, but instead because midori doesn't give every civilian she meets one on one time most assume she's a witch. Mob mentality is am ok troupe but I feel it was executed poorly. As for the alternative scenario for Midori, I wasn't saying she should be considered the *only* source of demons, but that she could be treated like she was making the problem worse by summoning demons to slay for her own fantasy. The angels have no reason to go against such an interpretation as long as the SDF doesn't treat her as the primary threat, though I do admit the shomonkai helping them would be stupid. It sounded like fun irony in the moment but you're right, it doesn't make much sense. As far as the Keisuke section is concerned, I think we're mostly on the same page? I didn't overlook Yama killing the daemons and that wasn't even implied, it was basically outright stated by Kaido. We know little to nothing of what the daemons do in the game and when I wrote that I was likely letting the manga affect my interpretation because in the manga, it's the daemons who murder the old lady who tried to share food, and Keisuke only killed the guy who did the killing (the friend who benefitted from the killing got a lighter punishment.) That being said it's not in the game so it's fair to say his killing of Kaido's crew was going too far without further information. I also don't spend much time on Kaido in that section because his only relevance is as a fail state if you don't stop keisuke. Kaido just forgives him with no interaction between them if you save Mari so I didn't think it was any more relevant than what I already went over when talking about Kaido in the previous section of the video. The last thing I wanted to touch on here is what you had to say about the endings. I'll be honest: my take on gin's ending was wrong and it was another commenter who made me realize what my issue was. Gin's ending isn't necessarily poorly written and I was approaching it with a mindset that was unfair to the game. I do still think Atsuro's ending is bad but that section would've worked better if the corruption of the military was a theme I brought up throughout the video, because it is a relevant theme in the game but I don't touch on it enough to make that section feel complete, it's like a conclusion without a buildup. Other than that I don't have an issue with how I did the other endings. You said I'm only ever negative on the game but the majority of the section for Amane's ending is positive and while I probably should've made this more clear, I do really like Naoya's 7th day even if I hate his 8th day. The fact that I didn't spend much time on characters I like such as Atsuro and Yuzu contributes to your perception of me being negative but I was trying to be positive when talking about the shomonkai's buildup, Kaido's character and Amane's ending. Idk what problems you think I invented, It's clear where you disagree with my issues but Idk which cross the line into issues that were made up. I think this video could've turned out better and some of your issues are very valid, but I'm proud of this video all the same. You say I need to be more evenhanded but I think my biggest issue was explaining myself poorly. I'm not saying I don't make outright mistakes but a problem I had more frequently throughout this video was unclear explanations and taking for granted what viewers would or would not know, one thing I've been told a lot is that this video is hard to follow for people who aren't very familiar with the game.
WOWZA BOBOWZA Abel is in danger and he needs YOUR help! He needs more macca for strong demons from the auction, to afford them he needs your credit card number, those wacky 3 digits on the back, and the expiration month AND year! But act fast, he can’t crush these demons alone!
Why doesn’t he just grind demons in the free stages lol
@@Jack-lo5me Shrimply a krill issue on his part
@@CorrinQuest he IS one in a krillion
@@Jack-lo5mehe needs the focused achievement
nice vid, very critical but i absolutely get being harsh on smth out of love and your devotion to the game shows even tho it takes some reminding that its your fav megaten game at times. it's one of my favs too and i never know what to expect going into megaten vids like this but the structure was pretty satisfying to follow, lots of content here in terms of actual substantive commentary and it was a good idea going character by character in the general direction of the games plot/as these characters related to each other and shared strengths and flaws since it is a game largely driven by character action and growth.
as someone who always goes chaos on a first playthru i liked naoya out of the gate and having learned how to tune out the friendship stuff by playing apoc like twice beforehand, i liked naoyas 8th day as a cool victory lap cementing naoya and abel as brothers taking on god which i find personally compelling. but replaying the game on amanes route really made him my fav desu character, really one of my fav megaten characters overall. the 8th days in general act as a character study of naoya, showing him from different perspectives which is so cool, im almost tempted to call him my favorite unofficial louis cypher of the series. but as a result of giving the time and focus of a whole other route to him, amane feels so shafted and, having tried to like her a lot because i wanted to be more fair to law reps in general, it is really sad to me lmao. her character did feel complete but i still really wanted to see her upbringing and philosophy as a stronger driving force behind your cause as messiah on the 8th day, even tho its there in a few scenes i just wanted more focus on her but naoya and kaido and honda stretch that day thin so many different ways its hard for her to do much, esp when youre pressed for time. still a wonderful game and it really makes me crave another megaten game like it just knowing the series strengths at writing both humans and demons, the synthesis between different mythologies its capable of, and this time system that is just so much better than personas, altho after smt5 and soul hackers 2 i have no faith in atlus right now
Yes, I am painfully aware of the misspelling of criticism in the video.
This is a excellent Video Essay! Please do another I quite enjoyed watching this!
I just beat the game and this is exactly the type of video I was looking for
Solid video essay dude
Though tbh I personally really vibed with Gin's route cause I first played the game during COVID, so I could 100% empathize with the feeling of just wanting things to go back to how they were
Fair enough honestly
@@Hobbit_Optimist This was brought up in your video on Devil Survivor 2, but a lot of SMT games tend to implicitly advocate for the status quo, with Neutral routes typically being portrayed as the "right" option in contrast to the more extremist Law and Chaos routes. And while I agree that this is a problem that the series has (Especially in more recent entries like SMTV where the route that the game implicitly tells you is right just doesn't feel good at all), I'd argue that it actually works very well for the story that the first Devil Survivor is trying to tell.
So much of the game before that had been dedicated to showing society fall apart as the situation in the lockdown slowly but surely spirals out of control. Tying into this, a lot of events with Yuzu and Atsuro have them talking about how they just wish they could go back to their old lives before the lockdown happened. In my opinion, Gin's route works well from a narrative perspective because, to me, it wasn't so much about the status quo being inherently good as it was the very natural reaction of "Fuck you and your war of Bel shit; I'm taking my life to how it was before you assholes did your lockdown." I think this idea is supported by the fact, while Naoya's and Amane's routes have Abel become the King of Bel and mankind's Messiah respectively, Gin's route has Abel seal away Babel and become a normal kid again. I got this route on my first playthrough, and it felt like a very organic way to finish the game as in my opinion it made perfect sense with what the game had been about up until then. It also just very much resonated with me as COVID was going on when I played it.
I will concede though that this ending is definitely weaker if you consider Naoya's and Amane's eighth days in the Overclocked rerelease, which more thoroughly fleshed out humanity's situation after either ending, even showing humanity actively prospering after both of those endings. However in the context of the original game, I think it's a very organic way to finish off the game, as well as just the least risky option for humanity.
I 100% agree with you though that Devil Survivor 2 does NOT handle the Neutral routes well at all, as Ronaldo has actual sound arguments for his position while the neutrals simply don't.
Also as a side note, but I'm gonna have you disagree with you on the Belial worshipper event. Like yeah it may not be that important in the grand scheme of things, but it's legitimately creepy if you get it on your first playthrough.
@@riceyboi5215 That's a compelling argument. I'll admit I probably gave Gin's route too much shit for being a part of the troupe not just in SMT, but many stories in pop culture that shows the status quo as ideal, even though as you said Gins route handles it better than most other stories. If anything when you take into consideration Yuzu talking about how being a messiah or king of bel would mean you might never have a normal life again, Gins route is a lot more understandable. Abel's a 17 year old kid who never asked to have the weight of the world put on his shoulders and it's reasonable for him/the player to want to continue living their life.
@@Hobbit_Optimist idk if you read but the manga adaptation actually choose Gin route and gives a lot more backbone because Kazuya , the protagonist name in the manga, is all about going back to his normal life and bring Naoya with him because he doesn't care about the War of Bel or being Cain and Abel , he wants his normal life back and his cousin back.
It work better because Kazuya talks in the manga..
@@alsaiduq4363 I did read the manga and understand the desire to return to a normal life, but I still think the game handles this idea better and the ending that explores this idea better is Yuzu’s ending (including the 8th day.) In Gin’s ending you still win the war of Bel and have Bels power, you just choose not to use it but who’s to say Abel won’t change his mind? I think Yuzu’s ending is better than Gin’s because it rejects the war of Bel entirely which is fair enough.
Also I feel like the manga made Naoya into a petty bastard who wanted god dead by any means necessary and along with Kaido, Keisuke and Honda is less interesting than their game counterparts. The manga’s take on Gin’s ending does involve Naoya a little more but I still think all 8th days handle him and every other character besides maybe Midori better.
The best game ever made by humans on Earth.
i swear🗣🗣🗣
Is this a Devil Survivor analysis from a small up and coming UA-camr??? I'm already interested in your channel!
I understand a lot of your complaints. I agree with a lot of this! Very good video.
I'd forgotten just how cool Naoya's poncho was.
I love the Game but its good to hear counters to the general opinion about the game, how great it is....
It does have flaws but honestly i wish it would get ported along its sequel to modern consoles...so the subffrinchise doesnt die with dual screen gaming
Good vid
This is a really good review. I really appreciate your nuanced perspective on characters such as Midori and Keisuke, they are not half as bad as they seem. Devil Survivor is an awesome game and this review really touched on how it could've been even better. Atsuro route sounds like the perfect beginning for a horror game!! I also really like Naoya he was really exciting and fun to see.
Personally though I enjoyed a lot of the more 'useless' events, the Haru plot with Aya and the stalkers had me speechless. I like it
WOWZA BOBOWZA is a localization moment, Midori's Voice is Fine, even Cute in The Undub Version. Do Yourself a Favor and play this Game Undub.
very unreasonable
hi gruglas
hi gruglas
Your not a Big Fan of The Status Quo are you?
You wonder whether you were too harsh or too generous on Devil Survivor at the end of this video, and I've got to say you were far, far too harsh. The entire video essay seems contemptuous of the game, to the degree that the love you apparently have for it never shows through. It seems you've forgotten a lot about DeSu in the years since you've written these essays as well.
While your structure is good and I think it's novel to attempt to go in depth and consider how even a series which is generally held in high regard within the MegaTen community could be improved, your methodology is careless. You act as if certain elements are more ridiculous and hackneyed than they actually are, given the game's tone and presentation, while often overlooking significant plot details or nuance that conflict with your negative impression. The game just straight up accounts for a lot of things you profess to be issues, so your criticisms are often unwarranted. This is doubly true because you acknowledge that the game had limited development time.
Let me point out some major examples.
15:00 [Midori]
The problem which causes Midori to be targeted by others isn't ultimately rooted in the obnoxious, chuunibyou way she's acting - that's just a symptom. She's not paying attention to the reactions of the people she's saving in the first place. Midori's seemingly selfless motivations are ironically undermined by her self-absorbed vanity, and she uses the fact that her intentions and the results of her actions are good to shut down any claims how she's going about things could be a mistake.
She's thick-headed about it and refuses to listen to what exactly Keisuke and the party are saying, too, which is the primary reason many think she's stupid and annoying. She's more concerned with living her fantasy of saving people than the feelings of the people she's saving, so she doesn't notice that not all of them understand she's trying to protect them. Why would they, in the scramble and panic of a demon attack?
Some of the mandatory battles actually give you the option to talk to the people you're rescuing from a demon attack to clarify your intentions and calm them down for precisely this reason. One of the early ones is particularly prominent, as doing it can prevent a mandatory battle later on. Clearly the game has nothing against you saving people, especially if you go about it in the right way. Even then, there are multiple battles where civilians leave the field with a comment condemning all demon tamers regardless, and other situations where people consider the party dangerous/malicious automatically.
The demons themselves are a massive unknown to the civilian population for the most part, with most people working on more limited information than the playable characters. Demons are fucking surreal, say wild shit, and are noted to be able to disguise themselves as humans through shapeshifting or possession. It's no wonder some people jump to conclusions, especially in the heat of the moment, especially when they've had friends killed by demons already.
Many people just want demons and demon tamers to not be a factor at all. They see demon tamers in general as aggravating the situation. And this is assuming they even know demon tamers exist yet; the dude who tells you where Midori is at the start of the 4th day doesn't, and that's part of the confusion. Midori is too caught up in her own little world to realize the way the wind is blowing.
There seems to be an undercurrent of ridicule for DeSu1's use of the mob mentality throughout the video, such as at 14:28. You call its use of this as a plot device "generic" at 2:50 as well, but there's nothing new under the sun to begin with, and simple =/= bad. The game justifies this groupthink through the desperation of the scenario, and it makes sense. Could DeSu's exploration of this theme be more profound and impactful? Sure, but the game's use of it as it stands isn't nearly as stupid or flimsy as you imply. It's portraying a very human reaction to the situation in a somewhat abstract manner in keeping with its structure and using it to generate conflict.
There is something of an onus on stories to be "more real than reality" in a sense and to have stronger justifications for character actions than "they did something stupid" even though people do stupid shit all the time, but the justifcation exists here. It makes sense. In the first place, there are just assholes in the world who want to take their anger and helplessness out on someone they can scapegoat and pin blame on. Keisuke's backstory highlights this as well.
You see people jumping to conclusions and condemning others over false accusations in real life all the time for any number of reasons, such as to protect themselves or gain a sense of superiority, so how is the game stupid for portraying this very common human behavior? You can't just say something with a silly voice and pretend it's obviously dumb - that just makes you look dumb instead.
But there _are_ characters who understand Midori's intentions and are thankful to her, which you even note at 15:20. You say "these are only thrown in after she decides to stop showing off" while glossing over the context that these people were saved _before_ she stopped showing off, and yet still were thankful to her, demonstrating that Midori's desire to save people was never wrong in and of itself. It's not that the writers didn't want to validate Midori's actions, as this is explicit validation of them, it's that she's being careless and treating a crisis like a game.
It's a nuanced, fluid situation, which is why DeSu's plot gets praised: it does take the effort to explore multiple plausible reactions to the scenario. It doesn't interrogate those ideas extremely deeply, or in a way that really pulls at the heartstrings, but the story is sensible and engaging regardless.
Like, is your problem that the info that plenty of people were cool with Midori is only given after her arc, and we'd otherwise only seen people scared of her up until then? Why? It's not implausible that this is just how things played out from the perspective of the playable party. Would it really have been that much more interesting if we knew Midori had additional validation for acting the way she was at that point in the story, when it can be inferred from this information we receive later? Maybe it'd be better if some people outside the PCs showed up to try to defend her at the start of the 4th day and then were cowed by the aggressors or something, but the main party are the only people with access to the Laplace Mail and thus aware an incident is happening they need to prevent. (Continued in next post.)
15:42 [Midori is received differently after joining the party]
It's clear she's now working alongside you, and the main party is presented as acting with more discretion rather than outright looking for trouble. People still suspect demon tamers even after this point, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, but after a certain point the main group have a decent reputation.
15:56 [Alternatives to Midori's scenario as written]
Unlike the ideas presented in your constructive criticism segment, these are not good suggestions and in fact make enormously less sense than the game does as is.
Why would the JSDF suspect Midori in particular is the cause of the problem when they're backed by angels who, while concealing information from them, are still clearly feeding them decent intel? The JSDF at least understand there are numerous unrelated demon tamers making use of the comps, while it would show the angels as less competent if they mistakenly assumed some random cosplayer was the source of the demonic invasion rather than correctly discerning the War of Bel was the cause and acting on that. Even if the JSDF were to target Midori in particular, they would probably be making this assumption based on other people calling her a witch and accusing her of being the main source of the demons, which wouldn't solve your problem with people blaming Midori at all (and would be even dumber considering not even the people who attack her in-game consider her the primary problem, but merely emblematic of their issues with demon tamers as a whole).
The lower ranking Shomonkai working with the JSDF to eliminate other comp users could be interesting, but there are plenty of complications to this idea as well. Namely, the Shomonkai actually presents its public face as peaceable and attempting to deter conflict, while the primary JSDF influence we see are either maintaining the barricade and not entering the quarantine, essentially the PC's allies (Izuna, Fushimi), or are the renegade JSDF unit which serves as a minor antagonist. The JSDF, being backed by angels, suspect the Shomonkai as a major factor in the current crisis, leaving the renegade unit as the only potential ally, and those guys are assholes who would be gunning for the Shomonkai demon tamers as well. Like, there are ways to write this idea, but it doesn't whatsoever solve your issues like you think it does... and your problem seems primarily to be that characters are acting rashly in high-stress situations, which isn't a valid complaint because it is in fact something people do.
21:33 [Keisuke]
The entire point is that Keisuke is sympathetic, has considerable justification for his point of view, and you're not necessarily supposed to see him as entirely wrong. His mentality is only slightly twisted, and like Midori he's using the superficial righteousness of his motives to justify selfish actions.
He's using power and violence to inflict his will on the world, essentially becoming much the same as the very people he despises. As justified as he is, his dialogue is clearly unhinged, and all of the reasons you note that you don't fully agree with him make it appropriate that you put a stop to him. The realization he comes to at the end of his arc is that he's acting in hatred to satiate his rage rather than better the world, and this is at odds with the kind of person Atsuro remembered him as and what he truly wants to do: protect people. Keisuke decides to change his path to pursue what he truly wanted in the first place.
I wish you read into Midori's and Keisuke's characters and the implications of them as deeply as you did Kaido's, since their deals are even more explicit than his. The nuance of their situations seem to have slipped your memory over the years.
I'm not sure who you're talking about when you say people give Keisuke too much shit, though. Are you talking about the characters or the playerbase? Most people I've heard from actually think Keisuke wasn't that far out of line.
23:04 [Bad shit Keisuke did you may've overlooked.]
Keisuke is _very_ heavily implied to have killed members of Kaido's gang. The entire context of this is not elaborated on, but the Daemons are portrayed as attempting to accumulate power and using force to ensure they and the people under their protection are taken care of in the chaos of the lockdown. They try to avoid killing at first, but become more bloodthirsty as the days continue, especially after their members are killed (which shows Keisuke's agenda is just pushing those around him to further desperation and violence).
Presumably, Yama killed the gangmembers for acting aggressively towards others even though they're also doing it for the benefit of people they care about or who've sided with them. This further highlights that Keisuke has in many ways stooped to the same level as those he's casting judgment on, as in his mind he's using deadly force to ensure the security of others as well. Once again, there is depth to the situation, as while neither side is strictly right, there's plenty of room to see where both are coming from.
It's interesting to me and strikes me as a mistake that you began this section as a matter of "Kaido vs. Keisuke" but never elaborate on why both characters are at odds, since the fact Keisuke killed members of the Daemons is the entire reason Kaido is trying to hunt him down.
23:56 - 31:15 [Ideas for how to enhance story.]
This is the best section of the video. I don't think _every_ take here is an outright improvement or necessary, but in general I agree the ideas presented here would be an improvement to the story at large.
31:55 [Beldr being evil]
This is explained. Beldr went mad when his resurrection failed due to "the one old hag who refused to cry" preventing him from rising from Hel. Now he plans to make a "world of lament" so all humans would cry and he can finally be free (be restored to full power, apparently). It's a dark twist on the original Baldr, but it's definitely making use of his mythology and is more faithful than plenty of the nonsense in SMT4A.
32:20 [Beldr's real name is Baldr]
The Throne of Bel is based on demons whose names derive in part from the _extremely_ widespread cognate "Baal," meaning "lord." This appellation has been applied to numerous pagan gods who were eventually demonized by Christian lore. I'm not sure why they chose to base the naming scheme around "Bel" instead of "Bal" or "Bael" or even just letting the demons keep their individualized names (although one assumes it was done for simplicity's sake), but in the comparative mythological framework that MegaTen runs off, there is definite sense in including Baldr in the Bel line-up.
32:24 [Beldr as a law-aligned demon]
Sure, that'd be cool too.
37:00 [Overview of the endings]
Your analysis of the endings is strange, because it's difficult to see where your personal opinion and gripes end and your actual criticisms begin. You act as if just because you don't personally agree with some of them, they're automatically stupid, when really they're just playing out the natural progression of the actions the player chose. What's important here is that the player was given all of these options to begin with and the game did a good job of following them to their logical conclusion. There's also a lot of nitpicks you have across these that are very easily explained.
I could keep going, but I think I've made my point. There are many unfounded criticisms in this video. You rarely talk about what you like and are mostly just griping the entire time. If I were to determine whether or not I bought the game based on this video, I wouldn't, because it sounds like it's garbage and you hate it. You ignore the game's _many, many_ genuine virtues in favor of obsessing over a myriad of pretty negligible flaws, quite a number of which you've basically invented. This is an enormous problem with _all_ of your DeSu videos, and I fear these bad habits will cripple your video essays in the future unless you learn to take a more evenhanded approach.
@@Kageryushin I appreciate the feedback and I am aware of some of the faults with this video on top of some of the issues you pointed out, but I feel parts of this misunderstood what I was saying which isn't necessarily your fault. Some of the misunderstandings are my fault for writing in an unclear way. I'll try to clear up what I think are misunderstandings as I go but I'm not gonna respond to everything here, especially if I think you're right on the money.
As far as Midori is concerned, (which seems to be most of these comments) I wasn't trying to say using the mob mentality troupe is always bad writing which I thought I said but maybe I didn't and given the contempt I had when talking about it you could be forgiven for thinking my intention was that the troupe is inherently bad. The main problem is that I think it's very weird to treat Midori like she's acting in a way that's fundamentally problematic compared to how you're party is acting. You're not wrong to say that Midori isn't considering the feelings of the civilians but I think it's weird that civilians are more likely to see Midori as a problem compared to your party, because for all her immaturities it's nearly impossible to mistake Midori's intentions. I get that this is a tense situation and yeah, sometimes people are just assholes as shown by most of the demon tamers you fight, but there's far more hate for Midori than there is appreciation or even neutrality for her and I'm not saying there needs to be widespread appreciation, too much would feel weird and unnatural, but the hate she get seems disproportionate. There is actually is actually another person within the mob that hunts Midori in the event where she joins you who question the necessity to hunt her and they get bullied into shutting up. The issue I have is that her intentions are far less ambiguous than your own. You can talk to civilians to try and calm them down but it's frankly easier to just kill all the demons before anyone gets hurt. You could say that's a callus way to play the game but if people are panicking, I imagine most wouldn't want to be anywhere near someone who summoned demons. It seems reasonable to assume that if people can be calmed down with a single sentence by people who carry demons like your party, then they can trust the person who says she's there to protect them to not be a threat, but instead because midori doesn't give every civilian she meets one on one time most assume she's a witch. Mob mentality is am ok troupe but I feel it was executed poorly.
As for the alternative scenario for Midori, I wasn't saying she should be considered the *only* source of demons, but that she could be treated like she was making the problem worse by summoning demons to slay for her own fantasy. The angels have no reason to go against such an interpretation as long as the SDF doesn't treat her as the primary threat, though I do admit the shomonkai helping them would be stupid. It sounded like fun irony in the moment but you're right, it doesn't make much sense.
As far as the Keisuke section is concerned, I think we're mostly on the same page? I didn't overlook Yama killing the daemons and that wasn't even implied, it was basically outright stated by Kaido. We know little to nothing of what the daemons do in the game and when I wrote that I was likely letting the manga affect my interpretation because in the manga, it's the daemons who murder the old lady who tried to share food, and Keisuke only killed the guy who did the killing (the friend who benefitted from the killing got a lighter punishment.) That being said it's not in the game so it's fair to say his killing of Kaido's crew was going too far without further information. I also don't spend much time on Kaido in that section because his only relevance is as a fail state if you don't stop keisuke. Kaido just forgives him with no interaction between them if you save Mari so I didn't think it was any more relevant than what I already went over when talking about Kaido in the previous section of the video.
The last thing I wanted to touch on here is what you had to say about the endings. I'll be honest: my take on gin's ending was wrong and it was another commenter who made me realize what my issue was. Gin's ending isn't necessarily poorly written and I was approaching it with a mindset that was unfair to the game. I do still think Atsuro's ending is bad but that section would've worked better if the corruption of the military was a theme I brought up throughout the video, because it is a relevant theme in the game but I don't touch on it enough to make that section feel complete, it's like a conclusion without a buildup. Other than that I don't have an issue with how I did the other endings. You said I'm only ever negative on the game but the majority of the section for Amane's ending is positive and while I probably should've made this more clear, I do really like Naoya's 7th day even if I hate his 8th day. The fact that I didn't spend much time on characters I like such as Atsuro and Yuzu contributes to your perception of me being negative but I was trying to be positive when talking about the shomonkai's buildup, Kaido's character and Amane's ending.
Idk what problems you think I invented, It's clear where you disagree with my issues but Idk which cross the line into issues that were made up. I think this video could've turned out better and some of your issues are very valid, but I'm proud of this video all the same. You say I need to be more evenhanded but I think my biggest issue was explaining myself poorly. I'm not saying I don't make outright mistakes but a problem I had more frequently throughout this video was unclear explanations and taking for granted what viewers would or would not know, one thing I've been told a lot is that this video is hard to follow for people who aren't very familiar with the game.