East Germany's Attempt At A Boeing 737 - The Baade 152
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- P: / foundandexplained
Quiz: www.foundandexplained.com
Converting a military bomber aircraft to a passenger jet plane was not a new idea, and it was the start of what would become the Baade 152. Its design could seat up to 57 passengers, or 72 in a high configuration and It would be used throughout the soviet union, and even be marketed to the west using American-made avionics! If it went ahead, it would have been a political triumph of the USSR, and cement the east german aviation industry for decades to come.
But it never happened. And to understand, we need to go back to the beginning.
The 1950s was a very different place in Europe. Germany was occupied by the two sides of the cold war, with the west controlling the west side of the country and east Germany under the USSR's controlling influence.
As part of its 'stewardship' of the country, the USSR had eliminated the homegrown aviation industry after the war and deported all the aerospace engineers to work on military projects in Moscow. The country was left without any involvement in aviation and lacked a competitive edge of the world stage.
But these engineers had not been idle. While working in the USSR, they noticed that the soviet bomber project, OKB-1 150 could very well be used for a commercial passenger aircraft. By the early 50s, East Germany had been officially founded, and the German aerospace scientists were allowed to return home - many of which couldn't shake the idea of the jet bomber turned civil aircraft.
At the same time, the new state declared that it needed a new aerospace company called the VEB Flugzeugwerke based in the city of Dresden. It was initially set to build military aircraft, but thanks for a popular uprising in the USSR the next year, the powers deemed that it would be a civil production facility.
To jump-start product development, the firm hired newly returned engineers like Brunolf Baade, among others. As the whole team had worked on the Soviet bomber, and still very well had the idea to turn it into a civil jet plane, the firm decided to commit to the idea - dubbing it the Baade 152 after the lead engineer.
But what was the Baade 152 actually like?
The Baade 152 was configured with 57 seats in a one cabin configuration, of around 34 inches of leg room, although during to proposal stage several other alternative seating arrangements were created, such as a 72-passenger configuration or a more spacious 42-seater for leasuire routes. Likely the firm also considered a VIP transport option for around 10 passengers.
As the plane was based on the previous bomber, it would share many of the same aerodynamics, including a range of 2,000-2,500 km (1,200-1,600 mi, 1,100-1,300 nmi) (depending on configuration). Arguable this range is very low, and would have led to poor market reach years later, but for the market, it was designed for, it fit the bill.
The plane would have up six crew members to fly it, including three cabin crew and three on the cockpit.
In terms of routes, the design team was promised that it would fly throughout the soviet union as a small shuttle aircraft to link nearby cities.
Local airline Lufthanasa jumped at the chance to buy the home state aircraft with an order for 20 planes.
By 1958, the first prototype rolled out of the workshop, on a very unique looking tandem landing gear and glazed nose for the navigator to look out - common among soviet era strategic bombers but not seen before on a passenger hjet aircraft. The maiden flight was a success and it looked as if the east german state had freed itself from the shackles of being behind the west.
Unfortunately, only a few months later that dream would end forever.
On the 4th of March 1959, the prototype crashed during its 2nd test flight and killed all onboard. Being a political embarrassment, the crash was never fully investigated and hidden until well after the change in government in 1990. It has since been believed that the aircraft had a fatal flaw with the design. When in a steep descent such as coming in to land on a short runway, the fuel tanks got cut off and the engines stalled - leading to a crash.
After three flight test the entire program was grounded. But this wasn't the reported reason for the cancelation of the program - rather - it was political.
The soviet union in Moscow, who had initally promised that the Baade would fly throughout the USSR, actually stepped in and commanded the east german state to dissolve the entire aerospace industry - shut down all production and scrap the design - including the two prototypes. This was because the USSR was working on its own airframe to compete in the same market, the Tupolev Tu-124.
And with a plane that couldn't fly, a production that had no orders or funding, and a market that was quickly evolving with the arrival of the Boeing 707 - it looks like the iron curtain would close on the Baade 152 for the final time.
Your modeling is getting really good, Mustards gotta watch out lol
Maybe they should collab
@@Thecrazzedgamer yeah that could be cool
He is getting really good but imo mustard is way ahead but hey he’ll definitely get to that point in the future
@@drxppsyy3214 yeah I mean I was joking to an extent
Personally I can't hold a candle to channels like Wendover, Mustard, Sidenote and more, but I hope to one day make a video as good as theirs :)
Ah yes, the "VEB Fluwsuwwerwe"
Nah, It's clearly the "VEB Wutzewörge"
@@Gerhard57NL Yeah or you could do 10 seconds research and find this video ua-cam.com/video/gnguNuryjIM/v-deo.html lol
It means Volkseigene Flugzeugweft Dresden!!!
It's "VEB Flugzeugwerke Dresden" 😉
@@uh7385 I know
Two short remarks: First, the Baade 152 should be equipped with "Pirna 014" engines, a modernized version of world's first mass-produced turbojet "Jumo 004" which was called after the Dresden suburb "Pirna" where ist was produced. The aircraft engine manufacturerer from Berlin was Bramo.
The first two 152-flights were undertaken with russain engines due to delayed availability of the Pirna engine.
Second, the manufacturer of the Baade 152 of course still exists (current Name: Elbe Flugzeugwerke) now being part of Airbus and manufacturing all cargo Airbuses.
A modernized Jumo 004 was completely obsolete by the late fifties. May a license built Klimov VK-1 ( Rolls Royce Nene) would have been a good start,
Amazing the facility is useful now! 🎯
I wouldn't call Pirna a suburb, because a suburb is something very else. Pirna is a rather small town not far away from Dresden. (A suburb is mainly defined as some kind of incomplete appendix to a larger city, which lacks part of the infrastructure a town needs, but uses the infrastructure of the larger city nearby.)
Looks ugly and the specs sound dumb.
It would be pronounced "Baaa-de"
Baa-duh
Yes! And while we're at it, that movie about the German submarine in WWII is pronounced 'Das Boht', NOT 'Das Boot'!
‘Barda’ with an Australian accent (non-rhotarised)
@@6B8RX As well as PorschE, not Porsh. 😁
No Airbus back then. Boeing, Douglas, Convair,
Whoever animated the jet left the engine covers on.
Ha, was just about to write the same thing. Just think how fast it would be without those.
Those are revolutionary ultra-low bypass engines.
@@dmrr7739 You couldnt even run a turbojet on a mass air flow that small. At least not any turbojet of a sufficient size to power that plane. And a turbojet is a zero bypass engine. Cant get any smaller than that.
It's so hilarious how you pronounced VEB Flugzeugwerke :D
By the way:VEB is an acronym for 'people owned plant' which was the common legal entity for state owned buisnesses in east germany.
In fact the plane was officially called the Dresden 152, but the bade nickname stuck
@@FoundAndExplained In the Verkehrsmuseum Dresden (Dresden Traffic Museum), it's called the "Typ 152" or even just the number 152. Its engines were actually called Pirna 014, after the nearby small town of Pirna. I've never seen the plane called other than 152 or Typ 152 locally around Dresden. All the names like Baade 152 or Dresden 152 I've only encountered since the 2000s.
But I've seen a Pirna 014 mounted on the back of a firetruck used as a blower to extinguish high pressure gas pipeline fires.
PS: One product coming out of VEB Flugzeugwerke were the bobsleds used successfully in Olympic Bobsled competitions and World championships since 1976 by former East Germany.
@@SiqueScarface VEB Strömungsmaschinen Pirna Sonnenstein ;)
@@Phonobrain I know. A relative of mine was an engineer at the Department of Fluid mechanics at the Technical University of Dresden.
@@SiqueScarface Cool! I studied there as well ( humanities tho). I've been born in Pirna - now living in Dresden. Tell your relative I said "Hi" :-)
Failure is the stepping stone to success. It leads to progress, and progress leads to excellence. Superb content my mate. Keep going good. All the best.
But this thing didn't lead to anything
2:57 No front but i never heard someone pronouncing a German word that bad XD
But it is a difficult word I guess
Wutznwerge 😄
Flook - tsoik - wer (e like e in net) - kuh
It is not hard. Even Google translate does a good job
@@jonannesfleischer9994 Hey, you just find out how it IS said. It's easy. Its called the Internet. This guy's a Shwanz. Im English and I can spell and say it properly in both languages.
The USSR was always afraid of free market competition and the 152 was competition. Perhaps the USSR should have left it alone as the firm's emphasis was mostly on civil aviation with western technology that could of assisted them with aircraft development. ( both military & civilian) It would have allowed the USSR to focus on military aircraft development too.
This channel is fantastic. One of the easiest subs I’ve had
You're the best! Hope you enjoy the rest of the videos on the channel :)
Lol 69 likes
A competitor to Boeing and Airbus? That's ridiculous. If having a protected domestic market were an advantage, then Ilyushin, Tupolev, Yakolev, and others would now dominate the world. They don't. Protected markets do not produce competitive products.
Also, the terms "Eastern Bloc" and "Soviet Union" can't be used interchangeably. While East Germany was indeed a Soviet client state and the Soviets wielded a great deal of control there, it was never actually part of the Soviet Union itself.
True!
Research a bit further, please. Until Gorbachev did come unto the scene, any Eastern Government was nothing more than an administrative arm of the USSR.
This was the last Junkers jet, just called Baade because the Engineer Mr Baade (Former an engineer of Junkers Dessau) was father of the project ;-) The Prina Turbojets were Junkers Jumo 012 further developments
The 1953 popular uprising didn't happen in the USSR, it happend in East Germany. The involvement of the soviets was 'limited' to killing a lot of people and ultimately quashing the protests.
westerb coup attempt
@@Leonid_Brezhnev1found the vatnik
@@BrapBrapDorito kho**la zabyt sprosili
@@Leonid_Brezhnev1 Lol go back to pointlessly dying in the fields of Ukraine with your fellow fascists thanks to broken equipment from endemic corruption. Kthxbai.
Dresden was a KGB (USSR Secret service) base that once employed an officer by the name of Vladimir Putin. When the Wall came down and East Germans were celebrating on the streets in their cities, this guy stepped outside his office, shot into the air with his service pistol and told those assembled to their surprise in harsh German words to go home and stop this nonsense.
Say no more ...
This is Aussie version of mustard 😂
In the end, the plane's technology was already obsolete. The development of the Tupolev Tu-134 by the middle 1960's made the Baade 152 unnecessary.
When I look at the other GDR products, I assume that they would have perfected the thing and been ahead of the competition for a decade. After that, they would have continued development but would never upedate the production, so the thing would still have been flying in 1989 as a hugely outdated machine.
2:55 😂😂 You pronounce "Flugzeugwerke" like Vugze Verger. I'm from Germany and I can tell you, our pronunciation and yours doesn't sound just a bit similar. But German is a very hard language for most not German speaking people to pronounce right I guess. But it's still very funny for me.
I tried SO hard haha!
He is using an English aproach in reading German words. No wonder he failed missarably.
FlookZoigVerk, how does that sound?
@@Hattonbank It's close for sure.
It never had a chance. It was inferior to and came out after the French Caravelle, American Boeing 707-120 (not to mention the trouble plagued de Havilland Comet) and about the same time as the far more capable B-720. It may have had some success in the east if the Russians had not killed it but it is doubtful it would have seen much success in the west. Maybe with some other regions such as Africa or South America but the French, British and Americans had far superior products to offer plus better worldwide logistical networks and support systems.
Salut le patriote français ,😁 pas la peine de faire bonne image pour t'a France ici avec un commentaire anglais !
Don't focus too much on the release year of 1958. The development phase did cover a lot of years well before that date and even had German engineering ideas from before 1945.
Great video again, thanks a lot. I love the way you said Flugzeugwerke :-) Greetings from Cologne
V.E.B. Foutsuh-vurgah! (I came looking for this comment. FLOOG-tsoyg-Vur-kuh, FYI, non-German-speakers. Yay, one year of High School German!)
I even checked with the company itself to make sure but I see my english comes through badly :)
It must have had “ Nose Gunner class”. No wonder it failed.
Only the 1st prototype did have a glassed nose.
I believe I read that this “ Nose Gunner class” configuration was requested to facilitate ground manoeuvres.
So I noticed you dont have fighter jets but im still gonna mention it.
The Convair Model 200: a US navy jump jet from the 60's. It was a concept but never built.
Actually it was developed in the early 70's. However Convair after loosing it's butt on the 880/990 program moved to being a sub contractor for airline parts. After the mid 60's it didn't produce anymore planes. Interestingly Convair built the center section fuselage for the MD-11 until MD was bought by Boeing.
My next big neverbuilt project is a military one :) time to branch out from just commercial planes :)
The same thing Russia did to Ukrainian An-148 program. Just ditched previously signed agreements and refused to build the aircraft in favor of Superjet.
Many countries lobby their own manufacturers, that is protectionism
@@Admin-gm3lc that is Russian understanding of protectionism - very near-sighted. An-148 might have been a better choice for Russian airlines, especially the ones operating in northern regions. However, Russia decided to favor Superjet, force it on domestic airlines and now - voila - only 2 are built in 2021. And I don't think any are sold. And airlines do not know what to do with ones they have because they are breaking way too often.
@@volodymyrdrobot9454 You collected only three AN-148s for yourself. Russia assembled and delivered 41 aircraft in Voronezh. At the moment, 27 units remain in operation in Russia.
@@vladimirnikolskiy and what? How does that contradict to what I wrote above?
@@volodymyrdrobot9454 The last AN-148 was released in Orel, in 2017, or in 2018, I don’t remember. Earlier, Ukraine announced an embargo on the sale of engines and technologies to the Russian Federation.
Do you seriously think that Russia did not predict the situation in Ukraine and did not draw adequate conclusions?
Your conclusion about the fact that in the Russian Federation they have relied on the SSJ100 is generally ridiculous, these are aircraft for different purposes.
1:43 Galway is not Ireland's Capital Dublin is
Galway is on the west coast, cork on the south, Belfast in the north and DUBLIN in the east. Ps I am Irish btw
What a misleading headline. The 152 made its first flight nine years earlier than Boeing’s 737.
It would have been competing with the 707, not the 737.
It's real intended competitor was the French Sud Aviation Caravelle, but if he had put that in the headline most people would have gone ????? and not clicked.
@@CaptHollister The 152 was not aimed to compete with Western aircrafts. It was rather targeted to compete with Tupolev TU-124 and Ilyushin IL-18. (A headline that leads the clicks to zero.)
News to me. Love finding out about lost aircraft from history. Coulda, woulda, maybe shoulda situation. Russian interference and pride wasted the potential. Couldn't have those productive germans upstaging the Mother land now can we comrades.
I can't help but feel the French are getting an image boost from Airbus all built on German engineering. I'm glad the American space program never did that - cough cough -.
There are 2 engines per casing. Making a total of 4 engines. This is less fuel efficient than having only 2 slightly bigger more powerful engines. Because more engines = higher fuel consumption (obviously). But also more frequent maintenance. And higher overall maintenance costs. Just to name a few things.
There is a plethora of other disadvantages as well.
Come again, please, when you understand the planned economy of East Germany. On delivery the aircraft would have been handed over with 2 working engines and 2 rotating fans in the other sections of the pods. In that scheme it would have been reported that the number of aircraft even overfulfilled the plan. Nothing would have been mentioned about every second aircraft quietly being shunted into a hangar "for training purposes". There the working engines would have been transferred to the "other every second aircraft" for getting them operational. Suddenly one would have noticed that the engine company overfulfilled their production plan just to supply the missing engines. And maybe find enough material for some spare engines. By the time the plans for the production of the 152 were fulfilled, the aircraft would have reached its working life span.
4:41 The Mercator projection has its uses, but range maps of this type are not one of them.
Correct. It would look more pear shaped: Elongated at the top, compressed at the bottom and standard to the sides.
Excellent video as always. My only other comment is "damn that thing is ugly" May or may not be a good design- I'm not an engineer so I don't know
Well the design crashed, so its hard to say if it was good. And it was based on a military bomber, so you might notice that the engines are not powerful enough (hence four, not two), and that the center of gravity is too high. I love the bubble cockpit though!
@@FoundAndExplained Only the 1st prototype had a glass nose cockpit, tandem main gear and also older Soviet engines. That all changed from the 2nd prototype onwards. However after just a few flights of the later prototype the program was cancelled for several reasons. I think you missed to mention that in your video.
@@FoundAndExplained twin engines on passenger jets are a much (decades) later development, once reliability could be guaranteed
Well, it looks like someone took a carving knife to a B-52, aka BUFF.
@@anthonykaiser974 BUFF is a very specific B52, the oldest B52 in service is nicknamed BUFF.
It's quite common for the Soviet Union to convert military aircraft into a passenger version, these projects have obviously had varied levels of success....
I feel like those jet engines can sharpen my pencil by the looks of it
It has two pig-nose engine nacelles on each wing :v
The modeler just left the engine covers in. Most pictures of the plane on the ground show it with those engine covers.
Brilliant idea. Let's produce heaps of these models with pencil sharpening jets as desk gimmicks.
The Baade 152 overhead wing configuration makes this aircraft most interesting as future design points in this direction for long heavy haulers. Likely the concept of dynamic fuel flow was not fully understood causing the fuel starvation issue. Likely if it entered the market with the critical issue solved it would not of served long but the next development would have been a market changer.
Hi from Germany 2:39pm cool to see german planes here
I will be focusing more on european planes in the coming months :)
I’m from Germany too
@@FoundAndExplained Like A300s, A310s, A320s, A330s, A340s, A350s, A380s rise and fall series?
😊
I would like to see a video about Embraer. How did a 3rd world country manage to create and be successful in the extremely competitive and technological aviation market? China, India, Japan, Australia and many others, dont produce commercial planes. But Brazil does! I'd like to know how that cane to be and what are Embraer's perspectives in the future.
Thank You for you content, good luck to your project!
The name of the plane is actually only 152, without the Baade. Brunolf Baade was the head of construction, but his name was not included. And it's only in recent years that the "Baade-152" pops up here and there, probably to be more in line with naming conventions that include either the company name or the name of the chief engineer.
The Baade 152, is a phenomenal concept. But it was poorly executed. Wich contributed to lack of support. And ultimately it's demise. It would need an almost complete redesign. Based on only a few major design flaws. One feature, having a sort of Domino effect, on most if not all others.
The East German state airline was actually called "Deutsche Lufthansa" while the west German was/is "Lufthansa", before the East German was replaced by Interflug.
2:57 did your tongue have a stroke?! Flug-tsoig-verke (the -e as in bed or met)
english mother tongue, renowned for murdering pretty much any other language
youre aware that "Flug" would in english be pronounced more like "Flagg" in german
it should be something like Floog-tsoig-verke
@@LEGIONCABAL while you are at it -verke would be read with a different pronunciation. The only way to represent this accurately would be with the international phonetic alphabet, which most people don't comprehend. Floog also doesn't cut it imo. It depends greatly on your dialect.
@@almerindaromeira8352 -verke was your suggestion tho
@@LEGIONCABAL hence the "while you are at it [destroying the example]"
I think passenger seating in the nose could catch on, maybe have a firsts class lounge kind of atmosphere in there.
That's where the onboard radar sits in modern Aircraft.
It will be very popular by social video suppliers filming their live reports when the aircraft is "backing full on into a mountain" ...
The Map that is being used to depict Europe in the 1950's is incorrect and does
not correctly depict the borders during that era.
Are you Mustard?
Some consider the fuel tank reasoning to be an excuse, since there had been other incidents and accidents where test-pilots tried to impress their bosses on the ground by flying dangerously.
Thats funny how you pronounce Flugzeugwerke
USSR had many of its designers and engineers in the field of aviation. USSR had its own design schools. No German engineers did work at Soviet factories. They all fled to the West. It was the West who has always exploited other people's human resources and not the USSR
Sounds to me like it was the USSR exploiting it’s populace that led them to flee to the free west in the first place... that’s not exploitation, it’s salvation from exploitation.
@@joshuastory7365 West is not free its rich West is rich because it exploits "other people's human resources" There is no connection between escape of a part of the German population and the economy of the USSR This is the result of the crimes of Western politicians especially of american esteblishment who brought Hitler to power Who gave him money
@@viptal6313 I didn't say there was a connection between the economy of the USSR and the desperation of most of it's citizenry to escape it. The reason so many people wanted to flee the USSR was it's totalitarian regime which limited basic freedoms and ruled by fear- one side effect of this did happen to be poor economic conditions. You seem to be more concerned with ranting about the perceived evils of the west than with an evaluation of the motives of German captives. While it is true that for a large chunk of history starting in the early renaissance Western nations rose to the top of exploitative nations, that's not exactly what was at play in this particular scenario. The west's free-thinking philosophies, one of the few developments actually brought about by native westerners and not stolen from others, created the environment for success and wealth of the degree we see in western nations today. That freedom creates the opportunity for success and wealth which improves the quality of life of people able to grasp it. While there could be a legitimate debate about the accessibility of that opportunity for different people groups due to discrimination, intelligent german engineers certainly would have certainly fallen into that category at that time. There is in fact a quite large connection between western freedom and the desire to leave the USSR.
That hitler thing came out of nowhere and I'm not sure how it ties into this. If you're referring to the attempts to try and foster peace between the Nazis and the world prior to the first world war, those are pretty generally regarded as diplomatic disasters and terrible decisions, but I fail to see the connection here.
You should work on your German pronunciation.
Brought it "to the Soviet Union"? That sounds a bit strange. Germany (DDR) was not part of the Soviet Union. It was allied with the USSR, of course, part of the Warsaw pact, etc. That's quite different from being an actual part of the USSR on the same level as Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, and other former Soviet states.
I came looking for this comment. There was a bit of conflation. Not deliberate of course (Unless a ruse to drum up interaction! 😀)
I really don’t get those gawky engine pylons.
The model includes the intake covers which make them look stranger, especially in flight. Like a pig nose.
Thanks for this video. I'm German but I never knew anything about it. Find this very interesting!.👍 Greetings from 🇫🇯
😲
@@donaldstanfield8862 hi, in words please! Unfortunately I don't know what that funny face means. Thanks.
All good. It just shows your age. Any baby boomer in West Germany growing up with an interest in aviation was raving on about "that pile of DDR junk" (Haufen DDR Schrott). As nothing remarkable did come after it, it was clear that any aviation progress would not develop from there despite having snatched a lot of remarkable engineers from pre-war Germany.
It was a problem of the planned economy. Instead of constantly pushing forward, supplies often dictated the pace. When the Wall came down the question was solved how East Germany was "World Production Leader of Industrial Robots". Their serial numbers rapidly went into the 10000 range. Once built and released to manufacturing companies on average they lasted about 2 months. After a complete overhaul, they were fitted with a new serial number and returned as a "NEW" item ...
In 1981 one of our professors in Industrial Design speculated, that Germany reunited could have the potential of a computer super-power. The East Germans had plenty of dreams and time to ponder over software problems, while the West German companies had the know-how of reliable mass production of any hardware. Somehow, since 1990 something has not matched ...
Fascinating. I never knew this aircraft existed. I'm sure with a little engineering this could have been a revolutionary short-haul jet.
mangled pronunciations and bizarre engines in the model aside, this was pretty interesting.
well... lots of space to install bigger modern engines here...
Engines low to the ground and the main landing gear kinda bring out the ocd lol /cringe
From 2nd prototype onwards the plane had a conventional main gear arrangement and different engines with cowling more alike the twin nacelles of a B52.
On the way to the Olympics they could have had one Baade for the athletes and one Baade for the steroids, now there's a winning East German combination!
I laughed but I think most viewers are now too young to remember. Not the first country to use banned substances to boost athletic performance ..... but the first to get caught.
@@gardengeek3041 It's never stopped they're just better at hiding it now. I think part of why the East Germans got lumped as the steroid people was all the horror stories came out at the same time when the wall came down and they were one of the more blatant countries when the wall was up.
Not required. The engines were steroid producing reactors, practically providing a by-product to be collected at the destination airport.
Baade by name, baade by nature...
I'm not German but I'm pretty sure Baade isn't pronounced "bade".
Yes, more like Bahd-eh
Would love to see a video on the Vickers VC-10 and Ilyushin Il-62. Controversy of espionage , safety records , etc.
Love the content of your videos. Thank you for all the work put into them .
Looks like a really cool plane. Shame it never materialized. Though I have to say it would be pronounced Bah-dah based on german pronunciation
clarify Lufthansa by saying "Oestdeutsche Lufthansa"
"Deutsche Lufthansa" was their official name before taking up "Interflug".
A plane so ugly it looked better after it had crashed....
The engines are literally just pencil sharpeners
I watch your channel when Mustard doesn't upload
5:20 that looks like Gran Canaria
THAT DOESNT EVEN LOOK LIKE A 737. oh yeah btw nice video
Well that design is good but I say it is BAADEE
USSR always made sure the East Germans remained subservient and under their control.
Plus the 1950s was not a good time when Soviet sultriness was high. East German could wait up till 1970s when Moscow interference would have been less.
*baad* 152
name makes sense lol
you my sir is mustard
It looks cooler than a 737 anyway
Some ideas for future episodes: The West-Germans also designed two unusual jets, the VFW-Fokker 614 with engines above the wings, and the HFB 320 Hansa Jet with forward swept wings, both not commercially successful.
Yes, that one looked really odd, and all the passengers could see was the engines above the wings
@@donaldstanfield8862 It was meant to be the illusive replacement of the DC-3 bringing the jet age to the bush environment, being able to operate from gravel runways without ingesting any risky material into the engines. Unfortunately, lack of government support had VFW (Vereinigte Flugtechnische Werke) being sold off to Fokker, which gave their F28 (later F70 and F100) the priority of their attention. Had Airbus had more strength in those days (they were just running in at that time with their A300s and A310s), the 614 could have been a more successful product in the recently launched A200 range.
Very nice! Hello from randwick the spot
Love Randwick
I think that the fuel management problem would not be that hard to fix. Russia did not want its colonies to compete in the aviation market is the sole reason for the plane's demise.
If only it was successful
When you say a popular uprising in the USSR, are you talking about Hungary in 1956? You realise that the whole of the Warsaw pact countries weren't the USSR don't you? The USSR was made up of the countries around Russia, the Soviet Union and the USSR can be used interchangeably, but the USSR satellite states (Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria etc), aren't part of the USSR ? And yeah the pronunciation of VEB Flugzeugwerek was well mangled. Not trying to be mean, but it seems like an interesting topic the producers should do some better research thou.
Crushing the German instinct for engineering really takes some effort. The USSR wasn't short of effort.
Hello from Indonesia, currently 8:13 pm
Following the guy who is from Sydney.
Hello my Indonesia friend
Hello 😭
Wow, it's currently 5:44pm in Melbourne, Australia. What is going on with the time ?
Your "what-if" around 9:30 is a bit inaccurate. Saying they could have competed with Boeing and Airbus was highly unlikely. VEB Flugzeugwerke would have been one of many competitors on the world market at the time: Vickers, de Haviland, and Sud Aviation and others in Europe alone; Boeing in the US was not quite the behemoth it is today, with other American competition such as Lockheed, Douglas, and Convair in the market as well. They would have had to demonstrate to Western airlines that somehow, their product was more compelling than the US and European options. After the Berlin Wall was created in 1961, it's likely VEB Flugzeugwerke would not have been able to get the Western avionics they dearly sought due to some of the same restrictions or sanctions we see today against Iran and North Korea, or to a lesser extent Russia and China. Even if East Germany had developed a robust homegrown avionics program, they would have been competing for aircraft sales only within the Warsaw Pact and possibly Cuba, China, and North Korea with the likes of the Soviet juggernaut of Tupolev and Ilyushin. Ultimately, the USSR would likely have reined in the East German program as they did originally. (And, to second what some others here have noted, the name is pronounced BAH-duh, not "Bayd." That drove me nuts!)
Apart from the horrendous pronunciation of German names (at least some approximation after research could have been done -- "Baade", for example, is actually pronounced approximately like "BAH-dey"), I got annoyed with most of the video treating East Germany and the USSR as the same thing (to the point that you even had to say "the USSR in Moscow" to mean the actual USSR when a distinction was needed). True that East Germany had a puppet government totally controlled by the Soviets, but it was still a separate, different country. The 1952 uprising, for example, was nowhere near the USSR, unlike what was stated in the video. It would have been better if you have used the expression "East Bloc" to mean the actual USSR plus its satellite states. That's what you really meant by "USSR" in most of the video, and it's not the same thing. As done in the video, it would be the same as saying that Munich is in the United States and BMW is an American brand of cars, because they were from West Germany and hence from the West Bloc...
What are you going on about leapfrogging western rivals? Are you nuts? The Comet was in service in 1953 and the Boeing 707 in 1958. And every Soviet civilian commercial aircraft had a glass nose years before this one. And the Eastern Bloc had years of using jets engines so had no lack of experience in "stalls" of jet engines. Have you heard of the Korean War? That was 1950 /53 years before this so jet stalls (if they exist, and I am certain you just read it somewhere and dont understand it) were pretty much understood by 1958. Do you honestly think they would design a plane that can't get fuel to the engines in landing configuration? Think about it..
And the TU 124 was already in service by 1956, years before so was not the reason why the USSR backed out.
The development team were not ahead of their time, they were badly behind the time. Do the passengers sit on the central wheels? That is the prototype you modelled, which was so unsuitable for an airliner they changed it to put the wheels the engine pods as on the next prototype.. Your explanation is almost wrong in every detail.
But I thought you were the expert and you find and explain things. Numbnut.
bro can you read? nobody expects you to pronounce foreign languages totally right, but it says "Pirna" - how can you pronounce this "Pirina" or "Brina", this is a name which isn´t that difficult to say in engl. like messerschmitt or something like that, all you have to do is simply read the word in the right way :D
It's a shame these planes never lived up to their potential.
They did live to their potential, and that's why these jet projects failed, Soviets were lagging behind in aerospace and because relationships greatly worsen when the Soviets dare to defend America's backyard (Cuba) from becoming a puppet state while already took part in the Korean conflict, East Germany would be likely unable to buy necessary tech from the West to keep up with competition outside Soviet Union where demand for jet travel was limited due to poor economy model, so no, definitely not a threat to Boeing or companies that become Airbus...
Soviets would likely kill by the political pressure any too successful aerospace project made by their satellites that would make Russians look too incompetent anyway especially if it could threaten the production of Russian-made alternatives they would like to force on states under their rule. Hell, Russians sabotaging gas exploration projects of nations around them up to the present day, including the attempt of Ukraine to collaborate with Westen companies on exploiting their gas reserves a few years ago...
Well it went Baade
When you set the engines far below the center of mass, as here, you get a significant upward pitching moment when you power up. That's a terrible "feature" if you need to increase airspeed to avoid a stall, since pitching the nose up will increase angle of attack and tend to accelerate the stall. This can be mitigated, of course, by using the elevator to pitch down as you add power, but it can still be a serious problem, not least because at certain angles of attack, you can lose control authority on the elevator. (The elevator can enter the turbulent air coming off the wings, which reduces the effect of control surface movements.
You really want to keep your thrust vector as near the CoM as possible.
wait... most of the modern passenger aircraft have engines far below center of mass. engine is the lowest part of aircraft in most cases if it doesnt have rear mounted engine.
This clip lacks some points. Besides constructing the Baade 152, VEB Flugzeugwerke Dresden built some 80 Iljushin IL-14 under licence, the OKB150 Bomber was based on the blue prints of an original WWII german disign for a bomber by Heinkel which never made it into production. The Baade which crashed was supposed to do a fly past at the Leipziger industrial fair. One of the attendees was Khruschev. After the Baade project was cancelled, VEB continued the overhaul of airplanes (mostly Mig´s) right to the end of the DDR. After the reunification the west german aerospace company DASA got hold of it and produced parts for the Fokker F100 until the demise of Fokker in 1996.
Found And Explained
By the early 1950s, East Germany had been officially founded, and the
German aerospace scientists were allowed to return home - many of whom
couldn't shake the idea of the jet bomber turned civil aircraft.
=== Not many of which.
Which refers to >THINGS
Baie dankie/ Merci. I fond it very strange. The USSR/ Commies will fund or let "ex-Nazi"/ Germans build a aircraft?
That don't make sense.
South Africa was part the the British Empire. The Dutch part of South Africa wanted to make a steel factory. Did the English part of South Africa or the British Empire just said OK? NO! It was very difficult for Yskor/ Iskor start making steel in South Africa. Thx
02:57 "VEB Flugzeugwerke." ...I would pronounce it, "V-E-B FLOOGzoig-Vairkuh", which means, "V.E.B. Aircraft Works".
(I'm not a fluent German speaker; I only took a couple of years of high school German.)
Actually it looks like a poor Russian copy of a Boeing B47, ie bicycle landing gear high wing wit jet engines pylon mounted overall shape......failure !!!
The Baade 152 was never a Soviet aircraft although the largest market was seen in the USSR.
It was wholly developed and made in the GDR despite taking some concept ideas from a Soviet bomber.
... and the Pirna 014 engine has no relation to Berlin.
It was developed in the city of Pirna (just south of Dresden) as a direct successor of the Junkers Jumo 012 turbojet by former Junkers engineers.
EDITED and CORRECTED TEXT
Converting a military bomber aircraft to a passenger jet plane was
not a new idea, and it was the start of that would become the Baade 152
Its design could seat up to 57 passengers, 72 in a high configuration
and It would be used throughout the Soviet Union and even marketed
to the west using American-made avionics!
If it went ahead, it would have been a political triumph of the USSR,
and cement the East German aviation industry for decades to come.
But it never happened. And to understand, we need to go back to the
beginning.
The 1950s was a very different place in Europe. Germany was occupied
by the two sides of the cold war, with the west controlling the west
side of the country and east Germany under the USSR's controlling
influence.
As part of its 'stewardship' of the country, the USSR had eliminated
the homegrown aviation industry after the war and deported all the
aerospace engineers to work on military projects in Moscow.
The country was left without any involvement in aviation and lacked
a competitive edge of the world stage.
But these engineers had not been idle. While working in the USSR, they
noticed that the soviet bomber project, OKB-1 150 could very well be
used for a commercial passenger aircraft.
By the early 1950s, East Germany had been officially founded, and the
German aerospace scientists were allowed to return home - many of whom
couldn't shake the idea of the jet bomber turned civil aircraft.
At the same time, the new state declared that it needed a new aerospace
company called the VEB Flugzeugwerke based in the city of Dresden.
It was initially set to build military aircraft, however, thanks for a
popular uprising in the USSR the following year, the powers deemed that
it would be a civil production facility.
To jump-start product development, the firm hired newly returned
engineers such as Brunolf Baade, among others. As the whole team had
worked on the Soviet bomber project, and still maintained the idea to
turn it into a civil jet plane, the firm decided
to commit to the idea - dubbing it the Baade 152 after the lead engineer.
But what was the Baade 152 actually like?
The Baade 152 was configured with 57 seats in a one cabin configuration
of around 34 inches legroom, although during to proposal stage several
other alternative seating arrangements were created, such as a
72- passenger configuration or a more spacious 42-seater for leisure
routes.
Likely the firm also considered a VIP transport option for around 10
passengers.
As the plane was based on the previous bomber, it would share many of
the same aerodynamics, including a range of 2,000-2,500 km
[1,200-1,600 mi] [1,100-1,300 nmi] depending on configuration.
Arguably this range is very low and would have led to a poor market
reach years later, moreover, for the market, it was designed for, it fit
the bill.
The plane would have up to six crew members, three cabin crew, and
three in the cockpit.
In terms of routes, the design team was promised that it would fly
throughout the soviet union as a small shuttle aircraft to link nearby
cities.
Local airline LUFTHANSA jumped at the chance to buy the home state
aircraft, and proposed an order for 20 planes.
By the year 1958, the first prototype rolled out of the factory on a
very unique looking tandem landing gear and glazed nose for the
navigator to look out of - common among soviet era strategic bombers
but not seen before on a passenger jet aircraft.
The maiden flight was a success and it looked as if the east German
state had freed itself from the shackles of being behind the west.
Unfortunately, only a few months later that dream would end forever.
On Wednesday, March 04, 1959, the prototype crashed during its second
test flight and killed all on board. Being a political embarrassment,
the crash was never fully investigated and hidden until well after the
change in government in 1990
It has since been believed that the aircraft had a fatal flaw with the
design. When in a steep descent such as coming in to land on a short
runway, the fuel became cut off and the engines stalled - leading to
a crash.
After three flight tests, the entire program was grounded.
However, this wasn't the reported reason for the cancelation of the
program - rather - it was political.
The Soviet Union who had initially promised that the Baade would fly
throughout the USSR, actually stepped in and commanded the East German
state to dissolve the entire aerospace industry - shut down all
production and scrap the design - including the two prototypes.
This was because the USSR was working on its own airframe to compete
in the same market, known as the Tupolev Tu-124
And with a plane that could not fly, a production that did not have
any orders nor funding, and a market that was quickly evolving with
the arrival of the British made Comet and later the Boeing 707 - it
looks like the iron curtain would close the Baade 152 for the final
time.
Looks like half a B-52.
It was meant to, it turned out to be 0
sounds so "warm" on end of sentences....
2:58 - wuzzebörger?
interesting video, there is a lot unknown about east german industry... but please, don't butcher the names so hard. it isn't difficult to pronounce it more or less correct. if the name VEB Flugzeugwerke (VEB Volkseigener Betrieb) hadn't been written there, I would not have understood it. there are pleny of sites that show how to pronounce it correctly.
By the way, you may also want to look into the VEB "Kombinat Robotron". essentially east germany IBM, they even had their own Intel 8086 clone production.
(sadly, their english wiki-page looks as if they just had cloned everything, without pointing out that they actually made a lot of that in house)
Back then, there was no Airbus. So all of the Airbus predecessors were in business then. And Boeing was *not* the sole American manufacturer. Lockheed and McDonald-Douglass were still making civil aircraft as well. So this notion of Baade being the "third" option is bonkers. 😵💫
Great Channel!!! Do you draw the aircraft yourself? What software do you use for the simulated flight?
More "Bawdé" than "Beyde".... pronounciation, go ahead, make the effort. Otherwise, very interesting.
you could do a video in the Fairchild-Dornier do 728
Um.... Interesting....If that's the case then why didn't the Soviet join force with the east German to produce the plane? Afterall it was a Soviet design to start with, and why didn't the engine show the same problem before being modified to a passenger plane?
I don't think it's would be good planes bc of if it ever landed on water ditching a high wing plane on water with passengers is bad
Seems to me, the only real time the Soviet Union was competing with, debatably ahead of the west was during the Mig-15 to Mig-25 times... Before and after, another story.
I want to see someone do a video on McDonnell's F3H Demon. The design was ahead of its time and by itself pretty stable. But congress kept lobbying for a terrible engine and ruined what could have been an amazing fighter.
had a look around the Baade 152 fuselage that was in use as a classroom on Rothenberg AIr field back in 1991. Beleive it is being restored in Dresden.
I like your videos. But the informations in this are not corect! The Crash and the End of the Projekt were not the result of an designflaw. There are not many informations gathered after the crash, but the few save facts are showing, that its more likely that the crash happend because of an bad flying profile and mistakes by the crew. The End of the Project happens because of many reasons. The main reason so far, is that nobody ordered any of the planes, so there was no need for a production.... sorry for my english!