Boy there are so many " pro axemen" on UA-cam that don't know much. You know your stuff and I always send people your way if they have an interest. Another very educational video thank you for that.
You know you have a pro when he uses the word "proper" all the time and half the video is him quoting some old author. Personally i think you shouldn't take anyone's word at complete face value, i think even Steven wants you to doubt him.
ZombieFighterOf2001 yea I agree just try to prove him wrong. He is very logical and practical in his thinking and presentation that's why I like his channel.
Was just flipping through Mor's book and he says a slight misalignment of the head in the right direction can be beneficial for some people. Just when you're about to say something is the right way...
I truly appreciate these videos. Once in a while there may be room for other opinions on what you are offering, but I would say that you are usually right on. While nobody knows everything, you obviously put truly serious time, effort and most importantly thought into putting good information out. This channel, while growing, is still an underappreciated and valuable resource.
Professor Axe class is in session. Good way to explain hardness. Never understood it really, however never really researched it either. I know the process for heating and quenching but not how that works. Learn something everyday.
Excellent, I like the presentation style you use to share information. Looking forward to the next segment, thanks for all the good work on this subject.
I've said it before, but i think the majority of chips and edge damage you shouldn't bother fixing unless it's a huge chip. Most the damage you'll get from normal use won't affect the cutting ability and you do end up wasting lots of steel if you always grind the damage back.
Older axes had two steels, the milder steel body and the high carbon steel bit that was forge welded in, either inserted or an overcoat bit. In those cases, the vinegar treatment will show the two colors but that wont be the quenching line but rather the harden-able versus low carbon steel of the head.
I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. The weld lines I've seen and made as a blacksmith are harder lines than these fuzzy amorphous ones. Also, not nearly so much carbon steel is required to make the bit as is commonly seen on these axes with the lines that I'm calling quench lines. Maybe I'll do some experiments with axes I have that have obvious weld lines, or are obviously new to settle the point.
In my experience, both cases are correct. Newer single steel body heads will show the quench line, and it is somewhat amorphous as you say. Some are curved or mostly flat depending on how is was dipped. Although I no longer use vinegar, in the past on the old two steel heads it would clearly show the two steels in two clearly different colors. The inserted or overcoat bit would be nearly black and the mild steel/iron body would be a medium to light gray, These followed the weld lines exactly. I'll try to dig up some old pictures if I can find them.
I like your presentation. I can tell you are a well educated man. I wish you was my neighbor. Your channel is very informative. I wish you well and many more subscriptions to come. Thank you for sharing. I know it takes a lot of your time and I appreciate you. Thank you.
I wish i'd seen this a couple of weeks ago. I recently bought two axes from a "kindly old axe expert" who took me for a ride and sold be a couple of complete turds. And then ghosted me when i tried to reach him again about the handles being loose and breaking, and a crack forming in one of the eyes. Live and learn. My honest takeaway is that unless an axe looks like it's seen very little use, it's probably more sensible for most people to buy new. Less hassle and probably cheaper in the long run. Axes are trendy these days like knives and other "manly" things, but the fetishization of old axes creates the potential for inexperienced people to get scammed by grifters.
The problem with new axes is they can still have a lot of the same hard defects. If you use this video and shop with a checklist, you can avoid all that stuff, whethe used or new. Handles are a crap shoot anyway.
safest for the axe, files and wet grinders. If you mean fast and safe, I guess it would be a wet grinder of some kind. Anyone can learn to do it on a dry grinder, even high speed, but it is always a little dicey.
I was wondering about the contour of the eye as well. There is a standard to it. But I've seen some gnarly variations. The contour of the eye is crucial upon the strength of the handle and the fitment of the head. Just saying.
Steven..Is there a chance that you could do a study/video on choosing the proper head weight to handle length? I recently hafted a couple of vintage True Tempers and Kelly's ( Charleston WV) and am not satisfied with the balance and feel of the final product. One a couple I used some of the Hoffmans hickory choices which I reworked while 2 others I slimmed down some House (hand picked) and although they "look" good, I didn't get that connection I was looking for. I think I understand the use concepts you've taught me (limbing, bucking, felling etc) and the various differences so I'm not trying to make a one-fit-all approach. Not interested in double bits so save your brain matter on those. Thanks, Dicey
Not likely that I woiuld do that any time soon. traditionally that is not a thing as far as I can see. there are light axes on very long handles and heavy axes an short handles. timersports are a good example. If I were to go up in head weight, I would most likely keep my same short handle length, or at least keep it at 30 inches or less. That would be informed by the work I do and my need for versatile axes most of the time.
@@SkillCult Thanks Steve.. Really enjoying all your work/passion and how you have influenced my hobbies. Very much appreciate your E-mentoring, Jim lives on through you and I'll pass on what I can too! DD
Professor Atholm this was a great and helpful video as always I learned a lot, my huskavrna multi use axe I had to do a lot of work on the blade and the paul, but now it's one of my favorite axes, handel still sucks if you have any ideas let me know please
apart from looks, is there any other reason to file the mushrooming of the pole of the axe? i tried to think of a reason but if it is small i really dont see how it will get in the way
Hey, I was just wondering how do you store axe handles longterm? Ive heard you mention buying bundles of handles in the past, so curious whats the best way youve found to store new unused handles to prevent warping and such? I assume laying the handle flat on the ground or a table and in a relative steady humidity environment would be best. Theres a few handles styles that are tough to find locally in my area so Id like to be able to purchase them when I come across them and store them away for when I need them, but would hate to spend the money on a bunch of handles only to find the handles warped by the time im ready to finally haft them onto a new axe.
a really good handle will not warp easily. If it warps easily in storage, you dodged a bullet If it's not too bad, you can reshape around the warpage to straighten it, or you can steam and straighten if it's not too bad. I don't worry about it much. or about how I store my axes. I lean them against walls, store them inside with dry wood heat, out in storage sheds that gert hot cold dry and damp. I'm sure anywhere in an average climate controlled house is fine if you want to be careful with them. Better not to worry about it and if they warp, that is usually an indicator of a natural tendency from some tension or growth pattern.
@@SkillCult Thanks for the reply that for sure gives my mind some ease in handle storage, I figured I was likely over thinking things as I couldnt find any google answers/discussions about axe handle storage on forums... so i kinda figured it wasnt a big deal but glad to have got your feedback/opinion on the subject to really ease my concerns. Thanks again and happy homesteading!
when you were filing that pole - was that the farmers file? you mentioned that file once before i think it was a bahco farmers file, 10" with one side double cut one side single cut? I bought one - and its pretty great
It wasn't. It's a large old mill bastard file. The Bahco is still pretty new. Filing thin edges like that is hard on file teeth, so best to start out with a more used file until it flattens out a bit. I still like the Bahco so far. I use mine quite a bit. Good to collect some older, but still cutting files for breaking in work, removing rust and other stuff. Also, long files are nice for heavier, more extensive work. The cut is more aggressive and there is a just a longer push before you have to pull the file back.
Steven, I'm curious as to why you didn't mention eye split out? Too obvious to bother mentioning, or is that just not a thing down south? I have successfully welded a few split out eyes, though I wouldn't recommend it, and cut up several axe heads to make root choppers because of split eyes.
I'm not sure I thought of that one. I don't see that very often. I've seen them broken and welded, but not many. I've also seen delamination of a folded and welded axe, down from the front of the eye toward the bit.
Just got a nice old maine axe with a crack less than a quarter of an inch coming off the eye on the top of the axe going towards the bit, its a surface crack it looks like. Do you think its a big deal or need to weld it? No mushrooming to the poll or anything like that
I would probably leave it. if you have it welded, make sure the whole bit is buried in something very wet like sand so the temper isn't ruined. I'd just use it and keep an eye on it.
As always, very interesting. I wonder why the "toe rounding" is so bad that you have to grind away so much material, instead of just wait a couple of normal sharpenings to profile it. Is it a ballance issue, can it be unsafe this way?
If you reprofile by sharpening, you will have to oversharpen the proud section every time, or undersharpen the toe. If the former, then you might as well get rid of it now. If the latter, the toe will always be dull. if cutting near the toe section with the blade very rounded like that, it is more likely to slip in the cut or even out of it. Say if you are making a felling or bucking cut, with only that front part of the blade in the wood. Makes me nervous. If all else is well with body positioning and direction of cut etc, probably not too bad of a safety issue, but it gives me the willies. I've tended to favor a fairly flat curvature, but obviously not everyone does.
Yeah, I have one old axe with such flat curvature (especially at the "bottom" of the blade though) and I also favor this, I will probably leave it not much changed. I suppose that oversharpening could make the edge brittle. Thanks very much for answer!
Thank You Steven, Very informitive and great info. You provide a great service and I think this is very important to keep this alive in our modern brainwashed world. Davey
Watch the temper. I'll probably bust out the 4 inch grinder for the top, up to a little way from the edge with adequate cooling, then maybe a belt grinder if I can keep it cool enough, but probably a lot of filing too.
Did I miss something? I've been hunting a North Carolina or Kentucky pattern because I wanted a 3 lb head with ears and a narrow high center bit. My Jersey came in last week and I'm already determined to take it apart and turn it into that before I tune it up. I'm going to try to get it down to 3 from 3.5, maybe take an inch or so off the bit and taper the cut back to the eye.
make short video of that. I was thinking using saw to leave jearsey ears and come up 3/8 in front of eye to leave deep coolar and cut back to bit like hudson pattern for one and cut 1. 5 inch off the toe side and 1/2 inch off the pole
@Scott I got it apart yesterday and started working the head. I'm not great with video and I only have a go pro and a phone. If it would contribute I might be able to scrape something together though.
I would like to see what you are thinking. I subbed to your ch. still pictures of tape lines to show plan would be great also. I will try the same. thanx for your time
The trademark name "True-Temper" came from their tempering process. They quenched their tools in molten lead. Yeah, who would have thought of that! Now that may not be the proper technique for a axe head. It may be more for a hoe or shovel. I'm unfamiliar with results of that method of tempering steel. There is some "voodoo" involved to proper tempering...unless you're a metallurgist....
It can be difficult on a felling axe unless it is a wrapped eye type, then you can usually see the weld pinch together at the front of the eye. Its lots harder to tell if they punched the iron for the eye, then you can only tell if the steel has delaminated in the bit, or if its pitted enough you can sometimes see the difference between the tool steel in the bit and the soft iron of the body of the head. Its lots easier to see on a hewing hatchet or broad axe usually, the tool steel is welded on the side vs sandwiched, and the weld is often very easy to see on the flat face of the head.
Oxbow Farm All wrought iron single bit axe heads are wrapped eyes, none are punched. At least if the smith who made it knew anything about the material they were working with. Wrought iron has a grain very simalar too wood, and like wood it's very strong on one axis and significantly weaker on the other. If you were to make a wrought iron axe by punching you'd have the iron oriented with end grain on the poll, making it very weak and liable to split. So the solution is to wrap the iron around to form an eye putting it in the strongest orientation all the way around. The wrapped eye method was a product of the material used not ease of manufacture. And wrapped eyes don't always have that seam at the eye, there were methods of making that joint very very clean or even invisible. So to answer the original commenter, it's not always easy or possible to tell without doing some kind of test, like an acid etch or spark test. But there are a few reliable things you can look out for, such as that seam at the eye. Another is with axes that had overlaid steel bits as opposed to inlaid, you can sometimes see the transition there on the sides of the axe.
With regards to burning out the eye without removing the temper. Works. I've done it twice on axes with epoxy/Permabonded handle stubs in them. I don't know what would happen if you actually built a campfire on top of an axehead with the bit buried, but a propane torch didn't do either head any harm with the bit sitting in a can of water. Iron is such a lousy conductor of heat that there's a lot of wiggle room to make that technique work, but its also why its so easy to concentrate the heat in the edge and burn the temper out on a grinder. Why do you bother filing the poll flat?
I have no doubt at all that water is adequate, the question to me is if earth is adequate, and in what state and how to do a double bit axe safely if it does work on single bits. I would not think that dry dirt would be enough. For sure temper is going south if the axe isn't buried or in water or similar. I use the poll for pounding stakes and stuff, so I want it flat. It's easy enough to do. A lot of them are basically pounded flat on old axes from being beaten on, though sometimes they are pounded in a way that makes them more crooked.
Oxbow Farm Iron is in no way a poor conductor of heat. How do you think you are able to cook food in a cast iron frying pan or pot? Asbestos, fiberglass, ceramics are poor conductors of heat.
Thomas Lilli, OOTurok, in comparison to Copper and Aluminium, Iron IS a poor conductor of heat. Which is why the egg you are frying in the Aluminium pan is ready before the butter is melted in the Cast Iron pan.
SkillCult also, clamping a single bit axe head below the eye, in a massive vice will keep the heat from running down the cheek to the bit, when using a torch to remove the remnant of the helve. N.B. I am referring to blowing the flame into the open end of the eye.
veeeeery good video, but i have to admit that it is quite uncomfortable to watch cause i do buy flea market axes for restoration and i am not shure about their heat treatment.
It's so that the eye remains soft and durable to both the wedging effect from the handle and the impact of chopping. Same for hammers and other handle in eye tools.
It's the same problem axe designers have been battling since the dawn of the first hafted axes eight thousand years ago. The balance between plastic toughness (think rubber, wood or forged iron) and brittleness (glass, diamond or cast iron). You really need both in a good axe and the balance entirely dictates how you use the tool.
Another great video full of great information! But I'm surprised by the view on grinders you seem to have. In my opinion the axe fanatic "don't use grinders!" Rule is one of those absolutist rules meant to cover everything but does a poor job in practical use, like the "never cut towards yourself" rule when using knives. It doesn't just take a grinder to ruin an axe but a real fool and a grinder to ruin an axe (although that's an unfortunately common combination). With the right knowledge it isn't that hard to safely use a grinder without damaging a tool at all. The key is understanding tempering as you explained. You begin to effect the hardness of hardened steel at around 300° f, and most axes will have certainly been tempered hotter to be more tough than brittle. 300° Is well above a comfortable temperature to touch. So if you grind bare handed with your fingers near where you're grinding it's very very very difficult to get steel too hot... At least without burning yourself first. Another thing to think about is that course grinding marks may not be as dangerous a tell tale of a damaged temper as finer grinding marks may be, The finer the grit the grinder the faster the steel gets hot due to more surface contact with the wheel or belt which means more friction and more heat. Though leaving something super rough certainly is a sign of carelessness. My argument for the use of grinders is that while I do love filing, I also like getting stuff done as quick as possible, and some axes I've found be simply too hard to shape by file in any timely manner, even for filing time. Though I don't think we should hand beginners an axe and a grinder, I think the anti grinder mindset is holding a lot of folks back. I look forward to watching the rest of this series! I always love these long videos.
My main point there was supposed to be that if there are obvious rough, uneven grinding marks, we're almost surely looking at the work of an inexperienced user and that has likely lead to overheating. If it was an experienced user, we probably would see no marks left as they would have finished the job. it's also a matter of how close they grind to the edge as you know. It's one thing to work off the cheeks of an axe quenching occasionally, but when you see marks to the edge, and the edge is uneven, we're looking at someone that doesn't know what they are doing. I don't mean to come off as entirely anti-grinder, just that it's incredibly easy and fast to burn an edge on a high speed grinder. Lower speed grinders are rare. I'll try to qualify that more in the future. I am against someone new to grinding working on a tempered tool without specific instructions and warnings though, because each person has to establish just how easy it is to overheat an edge. We've all done it. I like the finger rule. I use that too. I restored a broad hatchet a couple of years ago and reduced the size down with mostly grinder work. I fully flattened the back and brought the thing to an edge because the steel on those is so hard usually that it doesn't file. But, it required constant diligence and keeping the tool moving on the belt pretty much as soon as it touched down, which is a skill in itself. I have a belt grinder I can dig out and use, but I rarely do Part of that is that I like filing and I also like being good at filing and the more I do it, the better I get. I also find that power tools like that foster impatience, the exact opposite of what we want in someone using a grinder unfortunately, and hand tools foster patience and a craftsman like mindset. I'd love to have my grinders set up and will use them when I do, but I'd like to see more people do more filing, because it's remarkably effective, low tech, portable and a skill that is not entirely replaced by grinding, at least not with layman's tools. What I'm really looking forward to is setting up permanent grinders and gearing most of them down or making them speed adjustable. Hopefully within the year I'll have a small basic smithy set up with a few different grinders. I've got lots of arbors and wheels and a super cool water drip 12 inch sandstone wheel in a trough that I want to gear down and put on a stand with the motor and extra pulleys inside the stand. That thing will probably get a lot of play.
Boy there are so many " pro axemen" on UA-cam that don't know much. You know your stuff and I always send people your way if they have an interest. Another very educational video thank you for that.
You know you have a pro when he uses the word "proper" all the time and half the video is him quoting some old author. Personally i think you shouldn't take anyone's word at complete face value, i think even Steven wants you to doubt him.
ZombieFighterOf2001 yea I agree just try to prove him wrong. He is very logical and practical in his thinking and presentation that's why I like his channel.
Was just flipping through Mor's book and he says a slight misalignment of the head in the right direction can be beneficial for some people. Just when you're about to say something is the right way...
Couldn’t agree more
I truly appreciate these videos. Once in a while there may be room for other opinions on what you are offering, but I would say that you are usually right on. While nobody knows everything, you obviously put truly serious time, effort and most importantly thought into putting good information out. This channel, while growing, is still an underappreciated and valuable resource.
I work mostly in isolation, which is always dangerous, but we have youtube comments to keep me second guessing myself :)
Professor Axe class is in session. Good way to explain hardness. Never understood it really, however never really researched it either. I know the process for heating and quenching but not how that works. Learn something everyday.
Heating and quenching alone is rarely of much use. Most tools are tempered afterward.
Excellent, I like the presentation style you use to share information. Looking forward to the next segment, thanks for all the good work on this subject.
I really appreciate your hard work and generosity in sharing your knowledge with us. I am learning a lot from your videos. Thank you!
Cheers!
I've said it before, but i think the majority of chips and edge damage you shouldn't bother fixing unless it's a huge chip. Most the damage you'll get from normal use won't affect the cutting ability and you do end up wasting lots of steel if you always grind the damage back.
I agree.
Thank you!
Can't wait to see e the rest of the series, Thank you for the pro info.
Great info! Looking forward to the rest of the series!
What a great series.
Older axes had two steels, the milder steel body and the high carbon steel bit that was forge welded in, either inserted or an overcoat bit. In those cases, the vinegar treatment will show the two colors but that wont be the quenching line but rather the harden-able versus low carbon steel of the head.
I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. The weld lines I've seen and made as a blacksmith are harder lines than these fuzzy amorphous ones. Also, not nearly so much carbon steel is required to make the bit as is commonly seen on these axes with the lines that I'm calling quench lines. Maybe I'll do some experiments with axes I have that have obvious weld lines, or are obviously new to settle the point.
In my experience, both cases are correct. Newer single steel body heads will show the quench line, and it is somewhat amorphous as you say. Some are curved or mostly flat depending on how is was dipped. Although I no longer use vinegar, in the past on the old two steel heads it would clearly show the two steels in two clearly different colors. The inserted or overcoat bit would be nearly black and the mild steel/iron body would be a medium to light gray, These followed the weld lines exactly. I'll try to dig up some old pictures if I can find them.
Great series! Can’t wait for other parts! Keep it up Steven!
Should be one a day for next three days.
I like your presentation. I can tell you are a well educated man. I wish you was my neighbor. Your channel is very informative. I wish you well and many more subscriptions to come. Thank you for sharing. I know it takes a lot of your time and I appreciate you. Thank you.
Well, thank you!
Very informative!
Thanks Edholm!
You're welcome B
Thanks for the video..now I know I made a mistake sharpening Both sides of my first axe, a smaller broad head...back to the grind :(
Playlist!
There is one, but playlists don't always show up unless people search for them.
It can be hard to remove the handle in shop!!! I somewhere have a picture of a swedish old felling axe with three different tools stuck in it...
true.
I wish i'd seen this a couple of weeks ago. I recently bought two axes from a "kindly old axe expert" who took me for a ride and sold be a couple of complete turds. And then ghosted me when i tried to reach him again about the handles being loose and breaking, and a crack forming in one of the eyes. Live and learn.
My honest takeaway is that unless an axe looks like it's seen very little use, it's probably more sensible for most people to buy new. Less hassle and probably cheaper in the long run.
Axes are trendy these days like knives and other "manly" things, but the fetishization of old axes creates the potential for inexperienced people to get scammed by grifters.
The problem with new axes is they can still have a lot of the same hard defects. If you use this video and shop with a checklist, you can avoid all that stuff, whethe used or new. Handles are a crap shoot anyway.
What is the safest way to remove a lot of metal without messing up the heat treat?
safest for the axe, files and wet grinders. If you mean fast and safe, I guess it would be a wet grinder of some kind. Anyone can learn to do it on a dry grinder, even high speed, but it is always a little dicey.
Wranglerstar did a handle burn out in soil, give it a look and see what you think.
Seen it, that axe is toast for sure. Way too hot. Dry soil, barely buried.
Whats the bird at 16.15? Good stuff as always!
Raven. They are one of the year round resident birds.
I was wondering about the contour of the eye as well. There is a standard to it. But I've seen some gnarly variations. The contour of the eye is crucial upon the strength of the handle and the fitment of the head. Just saying.
Steven..Is there a chance that you could do a study/video on choosing the proper head weight to handle length? I recently hafted a couple of vintage True Tempers and Kelly's ( Charleston WV) and am not satisfied with the balance and feel of the final product. One a couple I used some of the Hoffmans hickory choices which I reworked while 2 others I slimmed down some House (hand picked) and although they "look" good, I didn't get that connection I was looking for. I think I understand the use concepts you've taught me (limbing, bucking, felling etc) and the various differences so I'm not trying to make a one-fit-all approach. Not interested in double bits so save your brain matter on those. Thanks, Dicey
Not likely that I woiuld do that any time soon. traditionally that is not a thing as far as I can see. there are light axes on very long handles and heavy axes an short handles. timersports are a good example. If I were to go up in head weight, I would most likely keep my same short handle length, or at least keep it at 30 inches or less. That would be informed by the work I do and my need for versatile axes most of the time.
@@SkillCult Thanks Steve.. Really enjoying all your work/passion and how you have influenced my hobbies. Very much appreciate your E-mentoring, Jim lives on through you and I'll pass on what I can too! DD
Professor Atholm this was a great and helpful video as always I learned a lot, my huskavrna multi use axe I had to do a lot of work on the blade and the paul, but now it's one of my favorite axes, handel still sucks if you have any ideas let me know please
Just take a lot of the bulk off. It seems like an okay handle otherwise if you can get a snug fit.
apart from looks, is there any other reason to file the mushrooming of the pole of the axe? i tried to think of a reason but if it is small i really dont see how it will get in the way
Not too much I guess. I don't like severe mushrooming, but on many it's minor. Pretty fast to take off though.
Hey, I was just wondering how do you store axe handles longterm? Ive heard you mention buying bundles of handles in the past, so curious whats the best way youve found to store new unused handles to prevent warping and such?
I assume laying the handle flat on the ground or a table and in a relative steady humidity environment would be best.
Theres a few handles styles that are tough to find locally in my area so Id like to be able to purchase them when I come across them and store them away for when I need them, but would hate to spend the money on a bunch of handles only to find the handles warped by the time im ready to finally haft them onto a new axe.
a really good handle will not warp easily. If it warps easily in storage, you dodged a bullet If it's not too bad, you can reshape around the warpage to straighten it, or you can steam and straighten if it's not too bad. I don't worry about it much. or about how I store my axes. I lean them against walls, store them inside with dry wood heat, out in storage sheds that gert hot cold dry and damp. I'm sure anywhere in an average climate controlled house is fine if you want to be careful with them. Better not to worry about it and if they warp, that is usually an indicator of a natural tendency from some tension or growth pattern.
@@SkillCult Thanks for the reply that for sure gives my mind some ease in handle storage, I figured I was likely over thinking things as I couldnt find any google answers/discussions about axe handle storage on forums... so i kinda figured it wasnt a big deal but glad to have got your feedback/opinion on the subject to really ease my concerns.
Thanks again and happy homesteading!
I use the fingernail test to locate really small nicks in the bit.
when you were filing that pole - was that the farmers file? you mentioned that file once before i think it was a bahco farmers file, 10" with one side double cut one side single cut? I bought one - and its pretty great
It wasn't. It's a large old mill bastard file. The Bahco is still pretty new. Filing thin edges like that is hard on file teeth, so best to start out with a more used file until it flattens out a bit. I still like the Bahco so far. I use mine quite a bit. Good to collect some older, but still cutting files for breaking in work, removing rust and other stuff. Also, long files are nice for heavier, more extensive work. The cut is more aggressive and there is a just a longer push before you have to pull the file back.
Steven, I'm curious as to why you didn't mention eye split out? Too obvious to bother mentioning, or is that just not a thing down south? I have successfully welded a few split out eyes, though I wouldn't recommend it, and cut up several axe heads to make root choppers because of split eyes.
I'm not sure I thought of that one. I don't see that very often. I've seen them broken and welded, but not many. I've also seen delamination of a folded and welded axe, down from the front of the eye toward the bit.
Just got a nice old maine axe with a crack less than a quarter of an inch coming off the eye on the top of the axe going towards the bit, its a surface crack it looks like. Do you think its a big deal or need to weld it? No mushrooming to the poll or anything like that
I would probably leave it. if you have it welded, make sure the whole bit is buried in something very wet like sand so the temper isn't ruined. I'd just use it and keep an eye on it.
@@SkillCult thanks for the reply man. Think ill leave it alone. Got a rogers superior Connecticut pattern 3.3lbs otw.
As always, very interesting. I wonder why the "toe rounding" is so bad that you have to grind away so much material, instead of just wait a couple of normal sharpenings to profile it. Is it a ballance issue, can it be unsafe this way?
If you reprofile by sharpening, you will have to oversharpen the proud section every time, or undersharpen the toe. If the former, then you might as well get rid of it now. If the latter, the toe will always be dull. if cutting near the toe section with the blade very rounded like that, it is more likely to slip in the cut or even out of it. Say if you are making a felling or bucking cut, with only that front part of the blade in the wood. Makes me nervous. If all else is well with body positioning and direction of cut etc, probably not too bad of a safety issue, but it gives me the willies. I've tended to favor a fairly flat curvature, but obviously not everyone does.
Yeah, I have one old axe with such flat curvature (especially at the "bottom" of the blade though) and I also favor this, I will probably leave it not much changed. I suppose that oversharpening could make the edge brittle. Thanks very much for answer!
Thank You Steven, Very informitive and great info. You provide a great service and I think this is very important to keep this alive in our modern brainwashed world. Davey
:)
cant wait to see the cut down jersey. i have 2 that I want to cut down from 4. 5 to 3.5 and 2.5#
Watch the temper. I'll probably bust out the 4 inch grinder for the top, up to a little way from the edge with adequate cooling, then maybe a belt grinder if I can keep it cool enough, but probably a lot of filing too.
Did I miss something? I've been hunting a North Carolina or Kentucky pattern because I wanted a 3 lb head with ears and a narrow high center bit. My Jersey came in last week and I'm already determined to take it apart and turn it into that before I tune it up. I'm going to try to get it down to 3 from 3.5, maybe take an inch or so off the bit and taper the cut back to the eye.
make short video of that. I was thinking using saw to leave jearsey ears and come up 3/8 in front of eye to leave deep coolar and cut back to bit like hudson pattern for one and cut 1. 5 inch off the toe side and 1/2 inch off the pole
@Scott I got it apart yesterday and started working the head. I'm not great with video and I only have a go pro and a phone. If it would contribute I might be able to scrape something together though.
I would like to see what you are thinking. I subbed to your ch. still pictures of tape lines to show plan would be great also. I will try the same. thanx for your time
Ahhhhh. Thank you.
The trademark name "True-Temper" came from their tempering process. They quenched their tools in molten lead. Yeah, who would have thought of that! Now that may not be the proper technique for a axe head. It may be more for a hoe or shovel. I'm unfamiliar with results of that method of tempering steel. There is some "voodoo" involved to proper tempering...unless you're a metallurgist....
how do you identify a forge welded axe head
hunter Hawkins
If the head is clean enough, you can usually see a lamination line that runs behind the length of the cutting edge.
It can be difficult on a felling axe unless it is a wrapped eye type, then you can usually see the weld pinch together at the front of the eye. Its lots harder to tell if they punched the iron for the eye, then you can only tell if the steel has delaminated in the bit, or if its pitted enough you can sometimes see the difference between the tool steel in the bit and the soft iron of the body of the head. Its lots easier to see on a hewing hatchet or broad axe usually, the tool steel is welded on the side vs sandwiched, and the weld is often very easy to see on the flat face of the head.
Oxbow Farm All wrought iron single bit axe heads are wrapped eyes, none are punched. At least if the smith who made it knew anything about the material they were working with. Wrought iron has a grain very simalar too wood, and like wood it's very strong on one axis and significantly weaker on the other. If you were to make a wrought iron axe by punching you'd have the iron oriented with end grain on the poll, making it very weak and liable to split. So the solution is to wrap the iron around to form an eye putting it in the strongest orientation all the way around. The wrapped eye method was a product of the material used not ease of manufacture. And wrapped eyes don't always have that seam at the eye, there were methods of making that joint very very clean or even invisible.
So to answer the original commenter, it's not always easy or possible to tell without doing some kind of test, like an acid etch or spark test. But there are a few reliable things you can look out for, such as that seam at the eye. Another is with axes that had overlaid steel bits as opposed to inlaid, you can sometimes see the transition there on the sides of the axe.
With regards to burning out the eye without removing the temper. Works. I've done it twice on axes with epoxy/Permabonded handle stubs in them. I don't know what would happen if you actually built a campfire on top of an axehead with the bit buried, but a propane torch didn't do either head any harm with the bit sitting in a can of water. Iron is such a lousy conductor of heat that there's a lot of wiggle room to make that technique work, but its also why its so easy to concentrate the heat in the edge and burn the temper out on a grinder.
Why do you bother filing the poll flat?
I have no doubt at all that water is adequate, the question to me is if earth is adequate, and in what state and how to do a double bit axe safely if it does work on single bits. I would not think that dry dirt would be enough. For sure temper is going south if the axe isn't buried or in water or similar. I use the poll for pounding stakes and stuff, so I want it flat. It's easy enough to do. A lot of them are basically pounded flat on old axes from being beaten on, though sometimes they are pounded in a way that makes them more crooked.
Oxbow Farm
Iron is in no way a poor conductor of heat.
How do you think you are able to cook food in a cast iron frying pan or pot?
Asbestos, fiberglass, ceramics are poor conductors of heat.
Thomas Lilli, OOTurok, in comparison to Copper and Aluminium, Iron IS a poor conductor of heat. Which is why the egg you are frying in the Aluminium pan is ready before the butter is melted in the Cast Iron pan.
SkillCult also, clamping a single bit axe head below the eye, in a massive vice will keep the heat from running down the cheek to the bit, when using a torch to remove the remnant of the helve. N.B. I am referring to blowing the flame into the open end of the eye.
Thomas Lilli thank you for responding.
Well those 18 min went by fast
veeeeery good video, but i have to admit that it is quite uncomfortable to watch cause i do buy flea market axes for restoration and i am not shure about their heat treatment.
You just take a chance on that. I avoid the very worst looking grind marks, unless maybe really cheap.
all those axes and not one Tuatahi or Elwell😪😪😀
I'm low rent :)
good stuff😎😎
Why don't manufacturers temper the entire axe head? I never hear discussion about that.
MrKfq269 because it would become too brittle.
Ahhhh. Thank you.
It's so that the eye remains soft and durable to both the wedging effect from the handle and the impact of chopping. Same for hammers and other handle in eye tools.
It's the same problem axe designers have been battling since the dawn of the first hafted axes eight thousand years ago. The balance between plastic toughness (think rubber, wood or forged iron) and brittleness (glass, diamond or cast iron).
You really need both in a good axe and the balance entirely dictates how you use the tool.
Another great video full of great information! But I'm surprised by the view on grinders you seem to have. In my opinion the axe fanatic "don't use grinders!" Rule is one of those absolutist rules meant to cover everything but does a poor job in practical use, like the "never cut towards yourself" rule when using knives. It doesn't just take a grinder to ruin an axe but a real fool and a grinder to ruin an axe (although that's an unfortunately common combination). With the right knowledge it isn't that hard to safely use a grinder without damaging a tool at all. The key is understanding tempering as you explained. You begin to effect the hardness of hardened steel at around 300° f, and most axes will have certainly been tempered hotter to be more tough than brittle. 300° Is well above a comfortable temperature to touch. So if you grind bare handed with your fingers near where you're grinding it's very very very difficult to get steel too hot... At least without burning yourself first. Another thing to think about is that course grinding marks may not be as dangerous a tell tale of a damaged temper as finer grinding marks may be, The finer the grit the grinder the faster the steel gets hot due to more surface contact with the wheel or belt which means more friction and more heat. Though leaving something super rough certainly is a sign of carelessness. My argument for the use of grinders is that while I do love filing, I also like getting stuff done as quick as possible, and some axes I've found be simply too hard to shape by file in any timely manner, even for filing time. Though I don't think we should hand beginners an axe and a grinder, I think the anti grinder mindset is holding a lot of folks back.
I look forward to watching the rest of this series! I always love these long videos.
My main point there was supposed to be that if there are obvious rough, uneven grinding marks, we're almost surely looking at the work of an inexperienced user and that has likely lead to overheating. If it was an experienced user, we probably would see no marks left as they would have finished the job. it's also a matter of how close they grind to the edge as you know. It's one thing to work off the cheeks of an axe quenching occasionally, but when you see marks to the edge, and the edge is uneven, we're looking at someone that doesn't know what they are doing. I don't mean to come off as entirely anti-grinder, just that it's incredibly easy and fast to burn an edge on a high speed grinder. Lower speed grinders are rare. I'll try to qualify that more in the future. I am against someone new to grinding working on a tempered tool without specific instructions and warnings though, because each person has to establish just how easy it is to overheat an edge. We've all done it. I like the finger rule. I use that too. I restored a broad hatchet a couple of years ago and reduced the size down with mostly grinder work. I fully flattened the back and brought the thing to an edge because the steel on those is so hard usually that it doesn't file. But, it required constant diligence and keeping the tool moving on the belt pretty much as soon as it touched down, which is a skill in itself. I have a belt grinder I can dig out and use, but I rarely do Part of that is that I like filing and I also like being good at filing and the more I do it, the better I get. I also find that power tools like that foster impatience, the exact opposite of what we want in someone using a grinder unfortunately, and hand tools foster patience and a craftsman like mindset. I'd love to have my grinders set up and will use them when I do, but I'd like to see more people do more filing, because it's remarkably effective, low tech, portable and a skill that is not entirely replaced by grinding, at least not with layman's tools. What I'm really looking forward to is setting up permanent grinders and gearing most of them down or making them speed adjustable. Hopefully within the year I'll have a small basic smithy set up with a few different grinders. I've got lots of arbors and wheels and a super cool water drip 12 inch sandstone wheel in a trough that I want to gear down and put on a stand with the motor and extra pulleys inside the stand. That thing will probably get a lot of play.
Why do people turn an axe into rocket science. it's a metal wedge on a handle. Swing,Smash,Sharpen,repeat.
I think our ideas of rocket science are very different lol. Good luck with that.