Got so much value out of this one! You guys put your collective finger on crucial existential problems that we all face today, and articulated them in ways so that I can actually start to grapple with them. "The intellect is the bouncer of the heart" is a Kastrup quote that comes to mind. I need intellectual permission to view these ideas as ACTUAL problems and not purely theoretical, and your clear and deep dialogue into these issues has made them no longer "ignorable" by my intellect, if that makes sense. You are concretizing and formalizing many abstract concepts for me that I've pondered (sloppily) and wrestled with (weakly) throughout my life. Also has sparked an interest in Piaget and developmental psychology in general. Looking forward to the next :)
Good Lord!!!! Zak's inclusion of education into the on-going Vervakean dialogues...so brilliant and so necessary. So looking forward to the next episode and the rest of this series. As always, much gratitude to you all.
I am very excited about this whole series, i transformed and struggled to understand what i was doing and why... i dove into all sorts of weird things to try and form a concept for myself to explain my growth... before knowing that i had already transformed my psychology. It was a tough time for me, but also very interesting and i found my love for philosophy. And then i realized more about spiral dynamics and found that i was going up the spiral, and most people never do... too involved in their story to see Truth. But anyhow, thanks for these! Found them today through Reddit recommendations.
Wow, I am fascinated to know more about Donald Campbell's investigations into the validity of the eye's information. In fact you've given me a whole new aspect to explore as an artist, thank you Zak. Strange synchronicity going on already, my next project involves mapping a technique I have been working on for portraiture, into landscape painting/image making. The project i am hoping to start will involve using star charts and maps generated from possibly the oldest observatory in Syria, possibly pre dating Newton by 600 years. This was just the impetus I needed, thanks again
You shine in this one! I have read a comment today somewhere on youtube, that is exactly how I received your conversation today: ‘’You treat my attention with great love and skills, thank you!’’ First, I want to just throw here some golden nuggets found in this video: Structural isomorphisme,,,,deep continuity Hierarchical complexity is one of the patterns, but there are also jumping patterns, non linear patterns. Non linear spurts like in language use of first person pronouns for example To get beyond the disciplinaries ethnocentrisme, what common language? Separate isomorphic from what is emergent and normative. Self organizing complexification , like parasitic processes, which is built on adaptive machinery does not always equate being better or normative improvement (or even being good at transforming?)...and in fact can disconnect us from reality How does this complexity reliably make you see real patterns in the world? The humility in the fact that errors can happen in someone even if a high level of complexity cognitively and emotionally...a darth vader move is always possible. Every bits about Piaget that is not so well known ( And that I wish Nora will listen too as the way she mentioned Piaget in her post about the violence and the colonialism of stage theories make me think she might learn something that would change her view about him at least) As he was also a mystic, an studier of interdisciplinary field, that his developmental stages theory have many subcategories and though he worked mostly about the stabilisation part of the development rather than the variability part, his overall work is of immense value in the collective knowledge and how it made possible subsequent knowledge. The possibility of transformation of a culture through reflection into the modality of the religious. For those who wants a refresher of Zak metapsychology: 3 modalities of the psyche: Trancendence, ensoulment, developpement. These 3 articulate themselves as a ooda loop. And within each of them there are also 3 elements. Where in transcendence we are going through ‘’phases’’ (Symbol, Attention, consciousness) Where in ensoulment we are going through ‘’stations’’ (image, imagination, personality (pre, tragic, post tragic) Where in development we are going through ‘’stages’’ (language, cognition, capacity) When I think of your metapsychology, how it moves it brings me to the week before this serie started with Forrest and how I saw the rotation of the axioms and therefore the modalities...I kind have the bubbling idea that your metapsychology is having a rotation like that too? In oneself and toward others as well? Charles Sanders Pierce and his influence became the axiom 1 or the immanent modality of Forrest, and he made it moves through axiom 2, his omniscient and out in the world. axiom 3 as it transcend just being the relationship to the world and enter also the subjectivity of someone else… Your ooda loops patterning that overlaps each other? transfer their knowledge from one another, Could it be similar in a way to Nora”s warm data lab, that wants to accelerate the insight coming from the interdependence of the group….abductives process she calls it, just like inside one’s being, Just like your metapsychology could be a tool made to accelerate the insight that defragment what wasn’t yet ovelaid, therefore like an aspect that was not ‘’talking’’ to another aspect of our psyche. Or another image/idea/connection: The words you use to describe, I don't see it as being just like coordinates of a meaning, or a label...would it close or resonating with what you want to share with your metapsychology, that those three words for each triplicates kind of define a territory, a container for the person to explore him or herself. But not a 2 dimensional, more like a dodecahedron when everything is in a motion of expanding, breathing or pulsing and ‘’kind talking’’ to each other? Just like Nora creates a space for the abduction to occur between people in different contexts,,,,would your threes of threes kind, and the sum of them all also to other people, that would kind of go into a abductive process at some point between each other… I am not sure I am making much sense but I am surfing the wave of connection here Zak Stein. I love how you love the world. And how you perceive it. Please continue the great work! Your modelisation is felt in my body as much artistic than it is intellectual…I look forward to next week.
15:18 The problem of psychology. 19:30 Animal psychology is fundamentally different from human psychology. 31:12 Natural, normal, normative. 42:56 Modernism rejects neoplatonism. 47:10 Pre-human knowing and being. 58:09 Piaget and growth-goodness problem. 1:11:56 Problem of competence in the face of sheer complexity. 1:21:43 Religion, imaginal augmentation of reality to discern patterns of the real. Ensoulment and transcendence.
Awsome : meaning philosophy is in some way propositional knowing toward perspectival and participatory knowing ! We use concept to map reality and at the same time paradoxicaly try to get rid of concept to merge with reality. The double curve of up abstraction and down embodiement is a perfect answer for what philosophy is : a practice toward transformation. Brillant ! Thanks to John , Zak and Gregg for that insight. Go further and beyond !
Thank you again Awesome Humans. I love you so much. But... here I fall into slight despair.... how can I possibly read everything I want to read within a single lifetime??? 🤣🙏🏽❤️ I guess this is where distributed cognition comes in.
I agree with the point that we are not just internal minds, and reason collectively, and disagree with isolated individualism, and think there are some internal inflationary dangers one should be aware of in “fixing” or individuating oneself. But in addition to our need for distributed, collaborative capacities, I think that is also a complex system that isn’t free of parasitic processing and the dangers of mass psychology, naive innocence to it in the religious experience of the dialogos space (which is so important), and the ability to sink into group animal behavior. I do think a good deal of what is offered here can make it safer to navigate the problem. And now it’s in the digital world. I don’t know why anyone gives their kid a digital cell phone. Even without this, and keeping my kids off the screen, I feel like I’m in a losing battle to this digital world. The number of times I have to hide cords, controllers, recode parental timers ( ex: My daughter oldest daughter asked me to unlock her tablet, and her sister snuck up behind me to see the code in one instance.) It seems that more meaningful behaviors, skills and activities require much more repetition to instill, and I feel like it’s so hard to compete with this digital world of instant gratification, like making kids read, clean and play sports wasn’t already hard enough, without a desire for video games, and the UA-cam I’ve basically outlawed for my kids, with exceptions to me being there with them, and watching something we can actually do together. They still go after UA-cam and compulsively watching 30 seconds of 50 videos a piece any chance they can. The kind of stuff people are creating for kids, and UA-cam aims at kids in the suggestions seems As If it’s designed to brain damage them.
Sounds so much like your all trying to solve the ancient problem of the tower of babel, except today we have the introduction of technology which can both help and hinder the process. It's been great, thank you all very much.
11:28 To apply an edge definition filter to open up the No Man's Land as to perceive the current c and circulation of d5 -that which like a river defines, holds and enters into with replenishing nourishment like a cerebral flush or the smell of air after rain.-This to me is Fourier Cognition , inport the possibility of transformation.
i deleted last comment... becoz it just occured to me that the developmental rate of learning in each era has not changed that much. there is wisdom with age and experience but not enough is done to feedback when the market force extracts only what is required from you to essentially keep the machine going. being sold the lie throughout education is soul crushing. how can adults nurture the main biological stages of change and individual freedom?
Since Timothy Morton was mentioned and Hyper objects too, it would only be fair to represent his view that the way out of these problems we are facing will not be solved by white men sitting down and composing frameworks, models and meta analyses of previous thoughts by previous white men no matter how well intentioned their compositions are. To quote Mortons humourous response to these attempts. "Anything you can do I csn do Meta".
Hi John, this podcast is truly remarkable, tha Piaget stories gave me the happiest smile in a while. However, I haven't heard much mentioning of Vygotsky's work in your videos, I think you are missing a lot from him and I don't know if you know Holbrook Mahn, but If not, you should take a look at his work ua-cam.com/video/z2eNXKhIemQ/v-deo.html
Got so much value out of this one! You guys put your collective finger on crucial existential problems that we all face today, and articulated them in ways so that I can actually start to grapple with them. "The intellect is the bouncer of the heart" is a Kastrup quote that comes to mind. I need intellectual permission to view these ideas as ACTUAL problems and not purely theoretical, and your clear and deep dialogue into these issues has made them no longer "ignorable" by my intellect, if that makes sense. You are concretizing and formalizing many abstract concepts for me that I've pondered (sloppily) and wrestled with (weakly) throughout my life. Also has sparked an interest in Piaget and developmental psychology in general. Looking forward to the next :)
I'm loving this series! Zak is a great addition to the team. Thank you all.
I can’t believe these series are free.
Good Lord!!!! Zak's inclusion of education into the on-going Vervakean dialogues...so brilliant and so necessary. So looking forward to the next episode and the rest of this series. As always, much gratitude to you all.
I am very excited about this whole series, i transformed and struggled to understand what i was doing and why... i dove into all sorts of weird things to try and form a concept for myself to explain my growth... before knowing that i had already transformed my psychology. It was a tough time for me, but also very interesting and i found my love for philosophy. And then i realized more about spiral dynamics and found that i was going up the spiral, and most people never do... too involved in their story to see Truth. But anyhow, thanks for these! Found them today through Reddit recommendations.
Wow, I am fascinated to know more about Donald Campbell's investigations into the validity of the eye's information. In fact you've given me a whole new aspect to explore as an artist, thank you Zak. Strange synchronicity going on already, my next project involves mapping a technique I have been working on for portraiture, into landscape painting/image making. The project i am hoping to start will involve using star charts and maps generated from possibly the oldest observatory in Syria, possibly pre dating Newton by 600 years. This was just the impetus I needed, thanks again
I would like more argument about the is/ought distinction. Hume will be watching closely.
that was a ride in the deep. thank you guys
You shine in this one!
I have read a comment today somewhere on youtube, that is exactly how I received your conversation today:
‘’You treat my attention with great love and skills, thank you!’’
First, I want to just throw here some golden nuggets found in this video:
Structural isomorphisme,,,,deep continuity
Hierarchical complexity is one of the patterns, but there are also jumping patterns, non linear patterns.
Non linear spurts like in language use of first person pronouns for example
To get beyond the disciplinaries ethnocentrisme, what common language?
Separate isomorphic from what is emergent and normative.
Self organizing complexification , like parasitic processes, which is built on adaptive machinery does not always equate being better or normative improvement (or even being good at transforming?)...and in fact can disconnect us from reality
How does this complexity reliably make you see real patterns in the world?
The humility in the fact that errors can happen in someone even if a high level of complexity cognitively and emotionally...a darth vader move is always possible.
Every bits about Piaget that is not so well known ( And that I wish Nora will listen too as the way she mentioned Piaget in her post about the violence and the colonialism of stage theories make me think she might learn something that would change her view about him at least) As he was also a mystic, an studier of interdisciplinary field, that his developmental stages theory have many subcategories and though he worked mostly about the stabilisation part of the development rather than the variability part, his overall work is of immense value in the collective knowledge and how it made possible subsequent knowledge.
The possibility of transformation of a culture through reflection into the modality of the religious.
For those who wants a refresher of Zak metapsychology:
3 modalities of the psyche:
Trancendence, ensoulment, developpement.
These 3 articulate themselves as a ooda loop.
And within each of them there are also 3 elements.
Where in transcendence we are going through ‘’phases’’ (Symbol, Attention, consciousness)
Where in ensoulment we are going through ‘’stations’’ (image, imagination, personality (pre, tragic, post tragic)
Where in development we are going through ‘’stages’’ (language, cognition, capacity)
When I think of your metapsychology, how it moves it brings me to the week before this serie started with Forrest and how I saw the rotation of the axioms and therefore the modalities...I kind have the bubbling idea that your metapsychology is having a rotation like that too? In oneself and toward others as well?
Charles Sanders Pierce and his influence became the axiom 1 or the immanent modality of Forrest, and he made it moves through axiom 2, his omniscient and out in the world. axiom 3 as it transcend just being the relationship to the world and enter also the subjectivity of someone else…
Your ooda loops patterning that overlaps each other? transfer their knowledge from one another,
Could it be similar in a way to Nora”s warm data lab, that wants to accelerate the insight coming from the interdependence of the group….abductives process she calls it, just like inside one’s being,
Just like your metapsychology could be a tool made to accelerate the insight that defragment what wasn’t yet ovelaid, therefore like an aspect that was not ‘’talking’’ to another aspect of our psyche.
Or another image/idea/connection:
The words you use to describe, I don't see it as being just like coordinates of a meaning, or a label...would it close or resonating with what you want to share with your metapsychology, that those three words for each triplicates kind of define a territory, a container for the person to explore him or herself. But not a 2 dimensional, more like a dodecahedron when everything is in a motion of expanding, breathing or pulsing and ‘’kind talking’’ to each other? Just like Nora creates a space for the abduction to occur between people in different contexts,,,,would your threes of threes kind, and the sum of them all also to other people, that would kind of go into a abductive process at some point between each other…
I am not sure I am making much sense but I am surfing the wave of connection here Zak Stein. I love how you love the world. And how you perceive it.
Please continue the great work! Your modelisation is felt in my body as much artistic than it is intellectual…I look forward to next week.
15:18 The problem of psychology.
19:30 Animal psychology is fundamentally different from human psychology.
31:12 Natural, normal, normative.
42:56 Modernism rejects neoplatonism.
47:10 Pre-human knowing and being.
58:09 Piaget and growth-goodness problem.
1:11:56 Problem of competence in the face of sheer complexity.
1:21:43 Religion, imaginal augmentation of reality to discern patterns of the real. Ensoulment and transcendence.
Have enjoyed the two very much!
Awsome : meaning philosophy is in some way propositional knowing toward perspectival and participatory knowing ! We use concept to map reality and at the same time paradoxicaly try to get rid of concept to merge with reality. The double curve of up abstraction and down embodiement is a perfect answer for what philosophy is : a practice toward transformation. Brillant ! Thanks to John , Zak and Gregg for that insight. Go further and beyond !
Thank you again Awesome Humans. I love you so much. But... here I fall into slight despair.... how can I possibly read everything I want to read within a single lifetime??? 🤣🙏🏽❤️ I guess this is where distributed cognition comes in.
I agree with the point that we are not just internal minds, and reason collectively, and disagree with isolated individualism, and think there are some internal inflationary dangers one should be aware of in “fixing” or individuating oneself.
But in addition to our need for distributed, collaborative capacities, I think that is also a complex system that isn’t free of parasitic processing and the dangers of mass psychology, naive innocence to it in the religious experience of the dialogos space (which is so important), and the ability to sink into group animal behavior. I do think a good deal of what is offered here can make it safer to navigate the problem.
And now it’s in the digital world. I don’t know why anyone gives their kid a digital cell phone. Even without this, and keeping my kids off the screen, I feel like I’m in a losing battle to this digital world. The number of times I have to hide cords, controllers, recode parental timers ( ex: My daughter oldest daughter asked me to unlock her tablet, and her sister snuck up behind me to see the code in one instance.)
It seems that more meaningful behaviors, skills and activities require much more repetition to instill, and I feel like it’s so hard to compete with this digital world of instant gratification, like making kids read, clean and play sports wasn’t already hard enough, without a desire for video games, and the UA-cam I’ve basically outlawed for my kids, with exceptions to me being there with them, and watching something we can actually do together. They still go after UA-cam and compulsively watching 30 seconds of 50 videos a piece any chance they can. The kind of stuff people are creating for kids, and UA-cam aims at kids in the suggestions seems As If it’s designed to brain damage them.
Sounds so much like your all trying to solve the ancient problem of the tower of babel, except today we have the introduction of technology which can both help and hinder the process. It's been great, thank you all very much.
Thanks Zack,Gregg and John!
Thanks Lee
11:28 To apply an edge definition filter to open up the No Man's Land as to perceive the current c and circulation of d5 -that which like a river defines, holds and enters into with replenishing nourishment like a cerebral flush or the smell of air after rain.-This to me is Fourier Cognition , inport the possibility of transformation.
How do I double like this?
Curious artwork choice, looks like a Mantak Chia video
Would you be kind enough to give the full first and last names of the presenters in the introduction or description section?
Greg Henriques and Zak Stein
i deleted last comment... becoz it just occured to me that the developmental rate of learning in each era has not changed that much. there is wisdom with age and experience but not enough is done to feedback when the market force extracts only what is required from you to essentially keep the machine going. being sold the lie throughout education is soul crushing. how can adults nurture the main biological stages of change and individual freedom?
Thought I'd let you know - you forgot to put a number in the title!
Marylin Strathern !
Since Timothy Morton was mentioned and Hyper objects too, it would only be fair to represent his view that the way out of these problems we are facing will not be solved by white men sitting down and composing frameworks, models and meta analyses of previous thoughts by previous white men no matter how well intentioned their compositions are. To quote Mortons humourous response to these attempts. "Anything you can do I csn do Meta".
i love this shit
Hi John, this podcast is truly remarkable, tha Piaget stories gave me the happiest smile in a while. However, I haven't heard much mentioning of Vygotsky's work in your videos, I think you are missing a lot from him and I don't know if you know Holbrook Mahn, but If not, you should take a look at his work ua-cam.com/video/z2eNXKhIemQ/v-deo.html