Is plastic drum wrap really bad for my drum sound?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- Does plastic drum wrap hinder your drum's tone? What, exactly, DOES plastic wrap do to the sound of a drum? In this video, part three of my series on drum physics, I unpack the history of plastic drum wrap and its true impact on your drums' tone. It's the best drum video you've ever seen! ;) Come join me!
Part One of this series: • That's Not What I've B...
Part Two: • Bearing Edges -- Drum ...
Discussion of 'Vibrafibing' as mentioned in this video: • Vibra-Fibing Neil Pear...
All graphics, videos and images used under 'fair use' for the purpose of education.
Drum wrap has absolutely no effect on the sound of a drum to my ear. The type of wood has a relatively small impact on the sound, while the choice of drum heads has the most effect. Not stating facts - Just my opinion after 52 years of playing and owning an embarrassingly large number of drum sets.
A good, clean bearing edge helps too. I've noticed no big difference between the sound of my wrapped finish on my Pearl master studio kit and the Laquered finish on my Master Customs. In fact I find the wrapped finish has a warmer tone and a faster decay.
@@GredelsRage Which is exactly the point. The 'warmer' tone is the added mass and the faster decay is the decreased sustain. Therefore, your wrapped finish does, in fact, alter the drum. Now, is it a bad thing, no, not necessarily, but to some it might be.
Some folks want to be purists 'just because', others are looking for a specific sound. The later are less likely to tell you you're doing wrong and say, that sound isn't for me. The others are just being pretentious.
As for me, I tend to approach each kit on its own merit and use them accordingly. A looser, plastic kit might sound better in a boomy open hall, where a more active sustain might sound a bit better in a more sedate room. I hate absolutes, because they are 'absolutely wrong'. lol
@Eric Stearns so my sound is just personal preference? Makes sense.
If a drum is wrapped correctly (glued with a 3M or = contact cement) the wrap virtually becomes one with the shell. I’’ve been playing professionally and re-finishing drums since 1972. I’ve had natural finish drums that I played, then wrapped and there was no difference in sound. I have to say I always bought my materials from Precision Drum Company because the quality is top notch. There are some really cheap wraps out there that I would not use.
Plus , if you don't have a good tune to play , none of it matters
Good bearing edges , true level and in-round shells, trued rims/hoops, and head choice/tensioning is all that matters.
Very interesting video!!! In 1977 I purchased my first "real" drum set. It was a Slingerland RJB outfit in Blakrome with 5 ply shells. When you ordered you could get the thinner three ply shells or the 5 ply shells and I got the 5 ply. The Blakrome was a metal wrap, not plastic, on the drum. Unfortunately there were a couple places where the wrap was higher than the bearing edge so I had my dad do some work on the drums to remove where the metal wrap was hitting the head. I still have that kit and they sound great. Thanks for sharing!!!
Those 5-ply Slingys are HEAVY DRUMS! I LOVE them (a buddy of mine has the copper wrap versions, and they have balls for days!
I just found your channel. It's amazing. Thanks for this series!
Adhesive seems like it would be the biggest difference between a wrap and a sprayed finish. Much like Green Glue used in studio room construction, soft adhesive will have a very different resonant frequency than either the wood or the wrap. In studio constuction, multiple layers of gypsum board separated by Green Glue interferes with the gypsum's resonant frequency. Using different materials for different layers of wall construction (sheetrock/ Celotex. MDF/ whatever) interferes with any of the layers' ability to resonate. The same ought to hold true for drums. It does make me wonder how using different different woods in adjacent layers affets a drum's ability to resonate, and how the fundamental of the combination is affected.
Thank you for this! I didn’t know the history of wrap and how it was used. As someone who dabbles in drum restoration and refinishing, I personally hate drum wrap. Especially on less expensive drums where they go “glue crazy”.
I find wrap bubbles with temp change and over time just looks ugly.
And then there’s how I feel it affects the sound.
You’ve got a new subscriber and I look forward to the knowledge you’ll pass on to guys like me who thought they knew a lot about drums.❤️
The wrap quality will vary with who did it, how long ago and what procedure and materials were used. So, bubbles may - or may not - happen.
I've played both Wrap and Lacquer finishes . . . honestly, a good sounding drum is a good sounding drum. Wrap, Lacquer, Silver sealer, vintage natural . . . bearing edges, drum heads all contribute to a particular sounding drum. While many talk about heads and bearing edges . . . no one seems to talk about sticks . . . different sticks give you different sounds on everything, drums and cymbals . . . just like different kick drum beaters all help make your sound. If you like the sound of your drum, doesn't matter what makes it up . . . if it speaks to you, that's your sound . . . play and enjoy!
I saw on a DW video a while back, where they said the reason why they didn't like the traditional wraps was the overlap of the seam around where the head sat on the shell. Basically the overlap would mute the drumhead more than a painted shell would. Their solution with Finishply was to cut a notch the covered part of the wrap right under where the head would go so the wrap would sit completely flush against the shell. This (in combo with the glued wrap on the shell) would basically make the wrap invisible from a sonic sense. It seems to make sense to me, but I don't own a DW kit, so I don't really have first hand knowledge.
Yeah, I've seen their pattern for wrapping drums. Don't know how true that is, though certainly a flat, round shell is ideal. Depends, I guess on the actual outer diameter of the shell... if the head can spin freely on the shell. I'd be curious to do an audition to see what difference it does make.
Interestingly, Ludwig (which I understand is now owned by DW) machines their plastic wraps with a beveled thickness at the ends that tapers down to nothing, allowing the seams to be perfectly flat, not raised, preserving the roundness of the shell.
The early wrapped kits from DW were so crude in their finish I could see why they got scientific about it..
This is the perfect channel for all drummers. Ive been upgrading my kit lately and went into a rabit hole of trying to perfect the kit no one touches these subjects which are fucking crucial.
As a cabinet and furniture fabricator my whole life, I am impressed you brought up the difference in the adhesives. Since LP or Laminated Plastic is applied with a rubber adhesive. But many companies Lay UP, or Glue there plastic veneers on with a wet glue, that hardens completely after curing. And I guarantee you there will be a sound difference in the exact same drum with the exact same plastic veneer, BUT WITH THE DIFFERENT GLUE ON EACH. Great job.
This series is exactly what I've been searching for; super well done. Thank you!!!
Thank you! Stayed tuned.... I'm tackling shell materials next (wood(s), metal(s), acrylic, fiberglass.....). A bit daunting, but hoping to have at least a part one shortly (probably wood as a first video on this followed by another for metal, etc., but we'll have to see). I'm trying to keep it focused, so it doesn't wind up being an hour or more of me bloviating!
I appreciate the encouraging words! Thanks.
Sprayed finishes can also affect sustain. A light nitrocellulose lacquer would have little to no effect on sustain but a heavy polyurethane finish can have nearly the same effect as a wrapped finish. The same reasons guitarists prefer nitro finishes to poly finishes applies here as well. For me these differences are insignificant and so I mostly own wrapped kits but YMMV. Great channel! Really enjoy the outstanding content.
Thanks mate, another balanced and well-presented post. Please keep them coming, it's my new favourite drum channel. Or my new favourite acoustic science channel? Anyway, crack on. Cheers.
Really interesting. Obviously a lot of variables at play, but I would love to hear an attempt at an A/B of a wrapped vs unwrapped drum! The principle makes sense, but I’m not sure I can intuit what the sound might be.
I am actually working to devise a scientific way of demonstrating this, among other things I've talked about in the other videos so far. The discussion is useful, I believe, but I really desire to demonstrate these realities in a obvious way.
Stay tuned... I think I have come up with a way and will try it out shortly. Thanks!
This was super fun to watch, I love your approach, thanks so much for making videos like this! Looking forward to more 😁
I’ve re-wrapped a few kits and I never use glue. Just two sided carpet tape only at the ends on the wrap, about an inch wide. I attach it to the wood and at the opposite end when it overlaps. I line up the overlap so it lands under the lugs and let all the lugs hold the wrap in place.
Guys in the end. It all comes down to personal preference.
Exactly.
I find it interesting (and disheartening) that people too often confuse their opinion and preference with empirical, objective absolutes.
I know you're talking drums here, but really, how much more peaceful I believe people's own lives would be if they would simply embrace this idea on a larger scale -- and how much more peaceful the world would be as a natural consequence.
@@drumdotpizza omg. You took the words out of my mouth!
@DrumDotPizza not at all dude. Drum philosophy is life philosophy. Do something because you want to youll suck at first. This isnt sucking. Its learning. IT, Nursing, Music, if you want it fo it (but please getbyour bad nursing out the way in school)
It’s all nuance. Just like different tone woods, different hoops, different edges, etc. Drum nerds like us like to geek out on these things, and WE can often hear the differences, but try getting the average listener to pick a wood type/wrap/interior while blindfolded. All modern drums make good sounds, take your pick. I have mostly lacquer or oil finish drums (I like thin, light shells with minimal hardware, personally). The exception is a set of 13/16/24 Club Dates wrapped in Ruby Strata which sound amazing - ball bat edges, thick wrap and all! Will a porous mahogany interior sound different than fiberglass interior? Sure. Does Walnut have a different tone than Birch? Sure. They all sound ‘good’. Not better, just different. Don’t pay a premium for the next great technology in drums, just play what you like. And if you come across one of Ringos wrapped sets, strip it down and refinish it to your liking 😂 it might sound better!
Well said!
Happy to see more content from you, Joel. Talking shop is always fun. Personally, wrap finishes never seemed as classy or high quality to me. So, it’s funny to learn here that they were more expensive, etc. The only wrap kit that I really dream about is Tony’s or Elvin’s Yellow kit… but that surely has more to do with the player. But there is something to be said for such a bold color and statement. Thanks 🙏
Keep Rocking !!!
Thank you for making this! Couldn’t find many other videos on the subject
I am loving this. It is giving me all kinds of ideas on my monster custom set. I prefer a heavy deep attack with little ring or sustain. Will have to try some of these ideas on extra drums i am not using.
Love these conversations!!!
Thank you so much!!
Heads, Tuning & Bearing Edges Are MOST Important. The plies, glues, wraps and hardware matter but not as much.
The heads are the instument. Like guitar strings.
makes total sense ,drum wrap material have damping ratio probably higher than shells themselves (which are.pretty much spread out themselves depending on the type of wood and construction) and glue or friction increases this damping effect. I am not aware of wrapped metal shells and the effect would be even more dramatic from the damping ratio contrast.
I love the old Tama kits from the 80s and 90s, would almost kill for a bell brass but who wouldn't lol. Good vid!
Did you see the Bell Brass that just sold on eBay???? $24k!!!!!!!!
I've tried both and they did sound differently from each other but I can't attribute it to the wrapped/not wrapped situation because the wood, thickness and bearing edges were different from one brand to the other. So, I consider this a moot point in my personal playing.
However, there is a major affect on my choice and that is practicality. I had a beautiful painted and clear coated set of Ludwig shells that I unintentionally damaged by good intentions. I sprayed them with LEMON Pledge furniture spray (I had used regular Pledge before, with no ill-effects on the same set.) The Lemon Pledge dissolved the clear coat and left a very dull silver sparkle coating which looked terrible. The sound had not changed but the beauty was gone.
Since my drums spend a lot of time traveling to gigs, they are subject to possible damage to the finish. Now I use wrapped shells and I love them. I pay more attention to the woods, number of plies, bearing edges, dimension of the shells, heads and hoops than I do to the finish being wrapped or not.
So many variables. It always comes down to how they sound. Each choice is a personal choice, just like choosing your favorite ice cream flavor and brand.
Another great video with "food for thought". I never agree or disagree with you because the content is so good. Keep them coming. Your hard work is not wasted on me.
Thank you for your kind words and for being here!
@@drumdotpizza lol
I believe that any attachment to drum shells do have an effect on the sound of wood shell drums..although that effect can be miniscule to the point of being negligible. I generally prefer lacquered or natural unwrapped wood shell drums but I have some excellent drums that have plastic wraps. There is a definite difference in quality of wraps, though. I have some mid-1960's era Rogers drums with wrap finish that the wrap is still good and tight no lifting just some 'character marks' from scuffs, etc. yet I've seen brand new cheaper drums with wrap finishes that the wrap starts lifting off in short order. I do like the variety of wrap finishes sparkles, onyxes, etc.
The Satin Flame wraps were great for a kit that you left sitting. But they marked up something aweful if you moved them around out of cases or bags. Back then most drummers did not have cases.
In my experience owning many kits.. Plastic wrap has little affect on a thicker drum shell sound. On a thinner 3 ply shell it can slightly mute & darken the tone which isn’t bad, just different.
Right on! I'm a fan of that slightly darker tone (I like the stronger fundamental it produces).
Interesting suggestions, im playing around with shells at the moment, I find the bearing edge and components the only thing that's important at the moment, especially how smooth the crest is and how free but tight fitting the contact between head and the crest is, I do have a metal snare which I was consider adding different materials to see if that would change the dynamics of the drum sound, as for resonance would it dampen or introduce decay much sooner, something I haven't tried yet, I'm in the middle of refurbishing a full kit, only a cheap one, the shell have a very limited ring when struck and dull.
Great, informative video~! Thanks. I wonder too if drum companies sometimes used plastic wraps to cover blemishes in the wood shells. I once removed the black sparkle wrap on a beautiful Gretsch round badge kit (I was young and foolish!) because I had heard that the wrap reduces resonance. The wrap had started to lift off the shell naturally. After removing all the glue etc I put clear (Poly!!) urethan coating on the shells. The drums did end up looking pretty but I am not convinced that they had any more resonance. And they certainly lost some resale value. But the main point is that the 12 inch tom had an ugly, three inch wide white-yellow seam the length of the drum that deformed the roundness of the shell a tiny bit. The wrap nicely concealed that. Ultimately I wish I had left those drums as is.
I'm sure that wraps do affect sound, but then again, some of my favorite drum sounds came from wrapped drums. Also, drums wrapped in delmar wrap can take a lot of abuse and still lool great on stage, whereas poly or stained drums gett nicked up.
"God's honest truth". -Morgan Freeman as "Red" on The Shawshank Redemption.
just for the record : Ringo´s Hollywood kit was introduced in the middle of the White album sessions (1968) and there are a lot of tracks on that album recorded with those drums . The idea and concept was from George Harrison who was recording in L.A with Jackie Lomax and the Wrecking Crew and saw Hal Blaine´s Octopus Kit and broughts Ringo a set of concert toms (some of them used in the" I me Mine " session. Is true that Ringo was looking for a more "organic" sound and they all stripped down the Guitars (Epiphone Casinos & Rickenbaker bass). The kit was fitted with calfskin heads and he probably recorded a couple of songs with those skins but then he put back the Ludwig Weather Masters heads on. Thanks !!!!!
Another man who love Ringo... so glad to have you here!!!
@@drumdotpizza my pleasure !!!! I learn a lot from your videos ( I owned a Hayman gold wrap Vibrasonic kit back in the 70.s, It was a 2nd hand kit 20 13 16 y 14 wood snare. Was in a terrible condition when I got it. I rewraped the kit in White marine and then sold it and bought my first 2nd hand Ludwig kit 22 13 16 1970 white marine....... what an instrument !!!!! - Blue Olive badge and clear interiors )
@@frenkelsoundco6962 Lovely! I love the 3-ply Ludwigs as well. In fact, if you're interested in a second kick for your WMP Ludwig kick I actually have a 22x14 shell, early 70s, clear interior in WMP (same as yours), but no hardware on it. Gonna list it on Reverb later today, in fact, so just thought I'd throw that out there (though I doubt you're actually looking for one). Great drums, those!!!
@@drumdotpizza thanks !!!! but...... I live in Argentina so its a bit far !!!!! I sold the Ludwig Kit in 1981 and then bought a brand new Gretsch Black Nitron 22 12 13 16 standard sizes
You are correct Mr Grumpy. A very well done presentation & historically accurate. Looking forward to more of your videos T.Y. :)
My kids gave me that hat for Christmas a couple years back. ;)
Glad I found this channel, I love stuff like this. As someone who loves drum history and Ringo, I thought he did want a Ludwig Kit because having something American made was a big deal, in fact he mentioned how the sales man went to take the Ludwig sticker off of the Bass Drum, but Ringo told him not to because having an American made drum kit was a really kool thing. That’s what he’s said in a few interviews. I’m curious where you heard the story of wanting another Premier kit. Always trying to expand my knowledge, certainly not arguing with you as I wasn’t there obviously. Thanks and hope you have a nice day.
I got that story from the book "Beatles Gear" by Andy Babiuk. The story you tell is quite different from the one in that book.
According to the book Ivor Arbiter (who ran Drum City in London) was, apparently, the Ludwig importer for the UK, and he was willing to do a deal with Ringo for a free drum kit only in exchange for having the Ludwig logo painted prominent on the head to be clearly visible from the audience (before then the Ludwig logo was on there, yes, but at the bottom, and not very big. By having it big it would be advertising for a brand that HAD to come through Arbiter, so he'd have a piece of all of the Ludwig kits sold in the UK.
The book goes on to reveal that Ivor Arbiter also created the famous 'drop T' Beatles logo that was used on all the bass drum heads (all of which were hand painted by Arbiter's drum head painter guy -- yeah, a dude who custom painted band logos on drum heads for Arbiter!). The book clearly shows the differences between each of the hand painted logos on the various kits.... pretty interesting stuff.
Arbiter reportedly designed that drop T logo in his office after Brian Epstein balked at the idea of having a large "Ludwig" on the drum head of a band called The Beatles, so Arbiter thought up the logo then and there to include as well.
Also, in Rob Cook's wonderful book, "The Ludwig Book," he tells the story, related by William Ludwig II, that his parents were both shocked, when watching the Beatles' original performance on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1964, to see the hand-painted "Ludwig" logo so prominently displayed, which was something they had never seen before, a story which seems to confirm that the large logo was not a Ludwig decision, but Ivor Arbiter's attempt to sell more Ludwigs into Britain.
Nevertheless, I wasn't there (not around, myself, till the summer of 1968! ;) so wouldn't be shocked if there was some nuance to the story that has been lost over the years.
Thanks so much for being here!
@@drumdotpizza Very interesting, thanks for getting back to me. That story makes alot of sense too. I had heard the story of Ivor drawing up The Beatles logo on a scrap piece of paper because Brian didn’t want the Ludwig logo without a Beatles logo exactly how you stated. The more I think about it, would the Ludwig logo really have just been a sticker back then anyway? Probably not, it would have been painted on back in those days. I’m not sure if I knew that the same guy painted all of his drum heads, that’s pretty kool to know. The story I heard was from an interview with Ringo, I’ll try to find the link, I’m sure it’s easy to find on UA-cam. Just because it’s coming straight from Ringo, doesn’t mean it’s exactly true though of course. It could be a condensed version of what really happened. Again, what you’re saying makes a lot more sense, especially from the standpoint of a drum dealer. Thanks again, I love learning more about music history, and Ringo is one of the reasons I really got into drumming when I was younger. Hope you have a good day.
Really interesting video, thank you! I love hearing about the history of drums, and their evolution to what we use now when we sit at our kits. I look forward to more posts.
The whole thing about sealed interior, I believe (and imho), is legit. First, Buddy Rich had his drums sealed with 4 coats of laquer. Second, I have built 2 6 pc drum sets. The maple kit always sounded a little wonky, until my friend, (same guy that took lessons from Ellis Tolan, you know who he is, and had it told to him about Buddy's drums), told me the Buddy story, and I lacquered the kit. And Behold! Weird overtones went away! So.....yes on sealing interior and, cough (BS), on some companies claim on wrap! Imho, anyway. Thanks for an enlightening and awesome video.
I am in full agreement with you -- one of the things I noticed over the decades of recording drums is that virtually ALL entry level (and some mid-level) drum kits lack a sealer on the interior -- the wood is raw and bare. As a result the drums lack clarity and definition in the higher frequencies (which get sucked up by the raw wood). ALL professional drums for the last many decades have sealed interiors, even if it is only an oil rubbed finish (which doesn't shine). The wood is sealed, however, and that layer of protection keeps the shell from sucking up the highs so much, so they reflect and hang around a little longer inside the drum, creating greater clarity and a brighter, livelier tone (regardless of the mass of the shell). I haven't yet gotten to this topic in my video discussions, but it is coming, so that's just a little preview ;)
So take an early Pacific CX or MX series maple kit, for example, and seal the interiors (and smooth the bearing edges of the shrapnel left behind from the routing table with a little 320 grit sandpaper before sealing), and they become very nice drums indeed! Cheap and effective!!
@DrumDotPizza lol. Nice comment about the 320 grit. Everyone says don't go above 220 grit. On bearing edges, i finish with 320 grit then 0000 steel wool.
I don't think most drummers know who Ellis Tolin was. I bought a big set of Sonor phonic drums from him with concert toms. They had a sharp 45 degree edge and even though they were thick shells, they had no sustain. They sounded good, but the note cut off right away. They were covered on the shell in thick plastic, too. The glue mentioned in the video that was sticky was probably just contact cement, which wouldn't hold the plastic tightly to the shell.
@@davidlanier7006 Thank you so much for bringing this up! Your post provides an interesting reality that I hadn't thought about including in this series of discussions, but now I might (because it's worth addressing, IMO): concert toms. Single heads toms have no resonant heads to interact with the batter for a longer period of time. As such the sustain of concert toms depends heavily on the type of head used (heavier films and/or dual-ply heads will produce far less sustain) as well as the tuning used. Anything above midrange tension will likely shorten the decay of the drum (even more so for smaller diameters). Thin, single-ply heads tuned at or below midrange will produce the greatest sustain on a concert tom in my experience. The lack of resonant head severely limits sustain.
@david lanier you're correct about the contact cement, but it's a specific type; 3m fastbond 30NF. I use it exclusively, and it's the one precision drum uses too. Gotta love Sonor, it was my first kit. But mine were thin shell, definitely a beginner model. They were somewhat resonant, as i best recall. So you were familiar with music city in Philly?
I’ve always wanted a custom glitter wrap or marine pearl wrapped drum kit, but I live in Arizona and I was always worried cause of the heat during summer time if it would warp or damage the wrap because traveling to shows or playing in hot venues, outdoors, or in a garage.
So I ended up getting my SJC kit in a satin stain instead 🤷🏽♂️
11:24 That's why of all the drumsets I own the Pearl Masters Custom Gold-set from 1996 that I have is still my favorite! 😉Though it's maple instead of birch.
I wish you would have played a couple of toms, side by side, with & without wrap, so we could hear if there's a noticeable difference
Hugely enjoying this series! Thank you for doing these. But, I do have a few thoughts: I’ve learned to be a little less bigoted about my views on drums sounds recently having been completely turned around by my latest drum kit purchase (Sonor Birch Infinite) about some ideas I’ve had for a long time. So, when I say this, I realize that I’ve never played on any of those big heavy Sonor kits (other than my 22X14 Phonic bass drum that I will never replace with a newer kick, but that has more to do with its dimensions than shell thickness). So, admittedly, my opinions on this stuff is completely based on listening to recordings. But, I definitely prefer to hear the drum shell as part of the sound. Recording of those big heavy shells always sound very dry to my ear.
But, that leads directly into my next point: controlling for variables in this discussion is huge problem for a truly scientific answer. Anyone could easily say to me, “You’re only hearing a dryer sound because those drums are harder to record in less than ideal situations, etc…”
Also, you could be testing two different drums with different thicknesses, and still rightly question the resulting differences in sound on any number of variables in. the entire construction process. i.e. not every piece of wood even from the same tree is going to have exact properties, drums shells are handmade therefore variability in the techniques of the person who worked the drum press, etc…
Another aspect of drum sound I haven’t heard you address is the room that the drum in played in (yes, I end sentences with prepositions. Sue me). If you’re in a terrible sounding room, it doesn’t matter how good the drum is; it’s going to sound terrible. A drum-more than any other instrument-is so influenced by the room it’s in. At least imo.
Great content, and nice informative style (without all that comic stuff and annoying background music...) Keep on thank you!
Great video, slight correction though! Ringo went into Drum City looking to get a Trixon kit. He traded in his premier kit, but Arbiter wasn't a premier dealer, and was trying to push German Trixon drums at the time. But of course Ringo opted for the Ludwig because of the finish, and that it was American, which was very cool for the English musicians at the time!
The story of Ringo's Ludwig is discussed at length in Bob Henrit's (who used to work at Drum City) book 'Crash, Bang Wallop!'
Excellent, thank you! I have a new book to put on my reading list!
@@drumdotpizza No problem! Its a great read
If mass effects the sound of the drum then theoretically if I put wrap around my already factor wrapped drums that should effect the sound. Which obviously is rediqulous to think it would make any difference
Wow, $500 in the 1960's was a lot of money! My 1st real set was a 1962 Ludwig 4-piece in red sparkle wrap, w/ matching snare. I got it in 1972: Used with cases & nice Zildjian cymbals was $300 (what a deal!)
Loving this series !! Thanks so much
It's all a matter of choice, there's no good or bad - I have a TAMA Starclassic with a painted/lacquered finish and an Orange (Jaques Capelle) with a wrap and they both sound fantastic, in my opinion, decent heads tuned correctly are the most important factors.
Agreed!
Very interesting. I have been working on drums-repairing, refinishing, rebuilding for close to 50 years. Most 60's-70's American wrap glues have been INCREDIBLY hard to remove. I very recently stripped the glue off a 60's round badge Gretsch marching drum. Went through at least 10 sanding discs to remove the almost glass-like adhesive.Hard and sharp edges.And I stripped the chrome finish off a Slingerland chrome o wood 18" FT. which had that same glue and pulled strips of ply out of the drum it was so hard.
Have you ever removed the copper wrap from early 70s Slingerlands? They only made that finish for a couple of years, but it is downright deadly stuff.... will slice you to pieces trying to remove it!
Yeah, the American companies used lots of glue and pressure on their wrapped finishes. The mahogany shells in particular (Slingerland used an outer ply of mahogany just about up to 1980) are prone to being pulled apart/shredded when pulling the finish off. Lots of heat to soften the adhesive will help preserve the mahogany veneer it's glued to.
From what I've seen Japanese companies (Pearl, especially) often used tape only at the seams for their wraps (and the hardware obviously holds the wrap on well), which makes rewrapping those drums something of a breeze, usually. Having said that I did remove wrap from a Tama Imperialstar shell from early 80s that was glued all the way around (factory Metallic White wrap), so they did glue some all the way around. Other vintage Imperialstars were taped, so Tama, at least, evolved their method of wrapping shells over time.
Thanks so much for being here!!
@@drumdotpizza I'm stripping an 80's luan Gretsch Blackhawk right now and the final damage was repairable. Tried the heat gun and it melted the wrap before the double sided tape let go.5 rows of tape and the ends...
I covered a set of pearl masters maple custom with white marine pearl wrap, because I always wanted a set that colour. I almost didn't do it when I found out the cost, it cost more than i paid for the drums ( which were a pretty good deal second hand ) and I was thinking this rubbery contact cement and plastic wrap might totally kill the sound of these drums. I should have made a before & after recording, I can't really tell how much the sound was affected, but they sure look good !
Yet another excellent video, sir! So if I understand you correctly, DW was essentially correct when they didn’t want to wrap drums for this reason?
Thank you so much!
I'm always reluctant to say someone (including myself) is 'correct' or 'incorrect' about a subjective perception. But yes, speaking empirically, DW was correct in stating that wrapping a drum in plastic alters the performance/sound of the drum. As to whether that is a good or bad thing is in the ear of the beholder, of course, and not an objectively "correct" or "incorrect" way to build a drum. To John and Don (I assume) NOT wrapping is the preferred approach, but market forces has had them wrapping their drums in plastic for over 30 years now (and I truly doubt they could have become the powerhouse manufacturer they are had they refused to do so).
Interestingly, DW's "Classics" series was created to replicate the sound of the drums of the 30s, 40s and 50s (mahogany/poplar shells, large maple reinforcing rings, rounded edges, AND plastic wrap!). When ordering a set you can "choose from a wide variety of Finish-Ply wraps."
I'm guessing they'll do all finishes upon request, of course, but this is part of their promotion for this series.
Plastic wrap truly is part of the sound (and charm) of old drums.
Thank you for the insightful reply, looking forward to more of your content!
This is an interesting argument. I started drum refinishing in 1997. I've wrapped many kits. The wrap may affect the vibration of a shell. It will be very minimal. The glue and wrap have almost no weight. To think wrap would deaden a shell, then painted and lacquer should do the same. As these finishes soak into the wood. As well fiberglass was mentioned. There is minimal difference with fiberglass lining as well.
Side note. Do not listen to any marketing DW uses. You can't really tune a tom to the note of the shell. As soon as you install the lugs and mounting hardware, the pitch drops. More DW hogwash.
LOL DW hogwash.
Yes You are 100% Correct
A Lacquered shell actually has more dampening affect than Wrapped one.
It is absorbed deeply into it and seals it totally.
It ckoked the resonance of the shell & drummers tuned drums tighter in those days, 2days tuning is much different, unless your a Jazz guy!!! If you put tape on Cymbals it chokes it!!! Shells vibrate & wraps choke them!!! 💯
Always de-wrap a kit. Raw or stained wood always looks better. Wraps are for kids gigging. No wraps in the studio.🍻
Interestingly the Tamburo Unika drums use a high pressure laminate wrap both inside and out to sandwich just a 3 ply popular core. Rigid and lightweight is how they describe it. They have full round over bearing edges and I can't decide what most determines their tone, the bearing edges or the hpl. Obviously it's a symbiotic relationship but I can't help but think the bearing edge has the greatest influence.
Yes, I agree. I would argue the bearing edge has a much more profound impact on the sound of a drum than plastic wrap would. (And heads. And tuning, and muffling...)
And yet the Pearl wood and fiberglass shells were slammed as being none sonic. So which one is it ??
I've not played the wood/fiberglass shells from Pearl. Heard good things about them (mostly), and would really like to try them. I have a lauan kit that I'm gonna redo (stencil kit) that I'm considering lining with fiberglass inside. This is the combo Pearl used, I understand (lauan shell w/fiberglass inside).
Not sure yet though. The shells themselves are much heavier than any stencil kit I've ever seen (12 ply!!), and I may just spiffy them up, cut new edges, refinish, etc. just to see how good I can make them as a lauan kit.... We'll see...
I'm old school. No pillow, no gels, no tape on anything. Coated Emperors or C.S. Dots and felt strips on the bass drums.
I prefer lively over dampened.
Wrapping or no wrapping, your choice of drumheads will be the big difference...
In 1981 my parents let me order my dream drum set as a high school graduation present. I custom ordered a Slingerland Buddy Rich set in white marine pearl. But I had read a few times in Modern Drummer that Billy Gladstone wouldn’t put pearl on his snares because “Pearl is for toilet seats!” It didn’t stop me from wanting a WMP set, but I ordered the _snare_ in a natural cherry finish. It’s still my only acoustic drum set and that Spitfire snare is awesome! The rest of the drums ring like there’s no tomorrow, so I think the wrap is okay. 😂
Correct
Interesting video. Interestingly, I have a mid 80's 7 piece Tama Swingstar with that exact same burgundy wrap. However it's very scratched and tired, I'm probably going to take off the wrap, stain burgundy and clear coat.
I have striped the wrap off a imperialstar: super ugly wood underneath!! ..so staining will look dull and far from shiny!!
@@klausschwab-c2t I've taken the wrap of one of them. The timber is fairly plain but with a stain and gloss clear coat I can see it looking good.
I was going to re wrap an old Sonor set with plastic and it was so expensive and I bought veneer and had a neighbor just ad some Bubinga over it instead.
The wrap cuts down on shell damage, and holes in the shell is bad for the sound.
I was not a fan of the Ludwig Carnival Clown Puke finish.
Love it! Keep up the great work! 10 out of 10! 🤓🤓🤓
Great channel. Generally not a fan of wraps, or bursts, or fades, or almost every form of finish on drums today. Loved the way Premier stained their drums back in the 90s. Wish more companies would get back to that. Why pay so much for all this fancy wood and wrap it in some glittery thing ?
No matter what anyone thinks...I prefer my wrapped drums for gigs, while my natural wood set stays safely at home. Cheers!
I watch because I like drums !!!! 😁
Thanks Joel always informative. Yes, sometimes fashion exceeds practicality. Many drum covering companies make an alternative option for the do it yourselfer.
We live in an age of technology. Somehow, I think Physics wasn't thought of by Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa back in the day.
It still is a matter of choice. Do you like your coffee black or with cream or sugar ?
You're right! Beauty is in the ear of the beholder!
And I prefer tea! ;)
I double wrap my drums and put tom mounts on both sides then put them in snare baskets and tighten said baskets real tight, by doing so I don't have put tea towels, moon gel, duct tape, gaffers tape, a wallet, or weights on the drums, OH and I take the bottom heads off too! lol JK Now do a video on RIMS lol thats always a good one...! Yamaha till this day refuses to put wraps on they're drums. Speaking of DW, i've had and open mind and ear, but till this day DW is phenomenal at 'marketing' and advertising, but man I do not like the sound of their drums, i've seriously have only heard 10% of they're drums sound real good the rest (i'll be nice) not so good. Cool video's you've been putting out, really enjoy them, peace.
I actually have a video on isolation mounts for toms (including RIMS design) coming up, but not so much in the way one might think.... I think I'll be clearing up a few misconceptions (at least one, anyway, a big one that I bit hard on about 40 years back and haven't felt the need to question till just recently.
If you're a real drum geek you might like it. I suspect most folks will just move on to another video, but at least I can get some stuff off my chest and ask a few new questions.... I may just learn a few things in the process!
@@drumdotpizza Right on glad to hear and i'll be on the look out, and thanks for letting me know. Yeah I was sarcastic on my comment and like you i've been around a long time seen it all on the subject(s.) That being said it can get a lil over the top on certain things like wrap etc, then we're like man that 69 silver sparkle Ludwig sounds soooo good! ( :
We all have to do what best for us plus try and create our own voice and get our complete set ergonomically comfortable, and of coarse looking and sounding good.
I've actually played a wrap most of my drum life (a few decades) and got nothing but compliments so 'it is what it is...' I really enjoy your videos keep em coming and thanks again for the reply. Peace
my 1978 Superstars have re-rings. Superstars never had zolacoat interiors. That would have been Imperialstars and lower.
Correct! Imperialstars were the ones with zolacoat interiors. In the video I mention Superstars and re-rings, not knowing for sure if they ever had them, but certain that by the early 1980s they did NOT (same with Imperialstars -- had re-rings early on, but they stopped that by early 1980s). Neil's custom red lacquer kit, however DID use re-rings, which I think is interesting, since Tama had stopped using them by that point. I guess they were just going off the Hayman kit that Neil liked so much?
This was very helpful! Thank you.
I'm thinking of rewrapping my 91 Tama Rockstar Pro.... it has lacquered shells but it is pretty damaged and I'm not particularly fond of the Transparant Blue finish as it appears more greyish than actually blue so might as well wrap it in Blue Ripple.
If I use the tape method I could always go back to the original finish, right? Maybe some tape residue that would have to be removed but other than that I wouldn't hurt the potential value of the drums going from lacquered to wrapped.
Thought about painting it but that seems like it would take forever and be permanent or at least very hard to remove.
I'm not scared of a little sustain loss on this kit because it's already ring-y as hell especially with the Starmounts and diecasts, may even save me some money on moon gels in the long haul.
I think you've helped me make my decision, between that... leaving it as is and painting it... wrapping seems the best solution.
That way I could have a matching 10x10 too, those are hard enough to find as is but especially in 90's Tama Transparant blue.... guess so few people liked this colour that there aren't a lot out there.
Sorry for the rant brother.
Tape would allow you to go back to the original finish, yes, though I don't know what harm, if any, the adhesive of the tape would do to the finish while on the drum.
@@drumdotpizza Thanks for replying man, I appreciate it! Not a lot of guys do but you seem to make the effort.
Oh no, I didn't mean the tape would harm it.
I meant painting the shells or glueing the wrap would be more work, a big pain in the ass, more expensive and non reversible.
With just the tape, in the worst case scenario, I'd have to remove some residue if I ever decided to take the wrap off.
Getting a better looking drumkit and having the option to go back with minimal effort cleaning up sound great to me.
Anyway, thanks again man. have a good one.
When can you do a test and show us the difference in sound?
I'm actually going to try to knock out a couple of comparison videos the week after Christmas, so hopefully I can, and they'll be ready to post probably just after the new year.
so...what IS your conclusion re: wrap?!
Wrap is part of the drum and does impact sound, but I see it as 'this or that,' not 'good or bad.'
I've played different drum sets that were identical in all but wrap on one and lacquer on another, and quite honestly differences in tone didn't really jump out at me. Whatever difference there was was minimal and easily addressed by head selection and tuning.
Bottom line is I think people really bite hard on marketing when really it's just mostly marketing. Based in science, perhaps, but we're talking tiny percentages of impact, so frankly if you dig the look, wrap or stain, go for it!
Yup...good stuff.
Outstanding!
Great stuff!
Thank you thank you thank you I learned a great deal thank you
Yes it affects it greatly. Would wrapping an acoustic guitar in plastic affect the sound?
Obviously! Whether or not it sounds “good or bad” is up to the listener.
Precisely!
Martin, in fact, makes a very nice (and costly) guitar called the D-35, which is a dreadnought model with a 3-piece back known for its notably darker tone than the 2-piece back version (the D-28). It's darker, because the 3-piece design results in a body that doesn't resonate so easily, so just like in drum shells, when it can't vibrate as easily the make vibrating element (strings, not heads, in the case of the D-35) can produce a stronger fundamental sound. Like heavier drums the D-35 isn't actually producing less high frequency information, but it isn't robbed of the LF content the way a more resonant body design is, so it feels darker overall.
Plastic does that for drums, and I, for one, would be fascinated to see what it does on a quality acoustic guitar! Might be a bit overkill, certainly compared to amore traditional design, but could be pretty fun (and amazing to look at!! :)
Absolutely fascinating!!
Uhh, Pert played. A set of Slingerlands for like two tours!! Those ,in that era, were thin shells! I think all maple three ply with reinforcement rings. Uhh another important point,, he rode those cans hard for almost a decade!! I think two tours!!! Maple shell will last a life time for us mere mortals!
Short answer is no. Now go play your drums everybody! 🔊
To me the way you put it makes sense. Actually I have both lacquer (bronze mist outside/resacote inside) and wrapped Ludwig 60/70's bare shells (projects, as you may know) and they resonate more or less the same to my ears, when I hit them hard with my thumb holding them suspended with my other hand's first finger (to minimize contact area).
It would be nice, "resonance-wise", to have a shell with no glue and no paint at all, but that should only be a solid wood shell, no more multi-ply shell.
Shame in the 99,9% of cases someone will ask you to muffle your drums!!!! LOL!!!!
very interesting
Ive rewrapped many drum kits. To me it made no difference at all
Uhh,, DW evolved from Camco! I think wrap has no effect. It,s all about the shells and materials. Thin shells with reinforcement rings are the better. I played alit of heavy ,thick, Japanese drums in the seventies and eighties and I was the only one to hate them!! The modern trend with six or seven plys of maple are bright and punchy! I ve come to really like thinner shells. Uhh my fave set that I still have is a 72 set of Slingerlands, all maple stained mahogany with laquer clear! Great sounding drums!
Beauty is in the ear of the beholder, and it seems your ears are most pleased with thinner, more resonant drums that have a higher percentage of harmonics to fundamental. I'm in the other camp... LOVES me some fundamental!
And yes, DW bought the tooling from Camco (turret lugs, etc.), but Don and John built their drums from a different mindset than Camco from the outset. In fact, when I first learned about "Drum Workshop" drums they made only natural maple finish. Period. They avoided wraps from the beginning, and for cost reasons didn't offer other finishes stock. That was around 1980 (they were mostly just selling their 5000 chain drive pedals at that point). Within 10 years they were quickly becoming the Rolls Royce of drums and still refusing to wrap any drums in plastic. Eventually demand won out, though, and they started wrapping them.
Thanks so much for being here and chiming in!
It's very simple, add mass to a drum and will change... including the wrap, but we will not hear at all. This is a fact. And over time we lose hearing by nature... this is also a fact. Do not get mad towards you drum wrap.
The bottom line? Ringo is God!
That might just be the bottom line! :)
Shameless plug... have you seen my video on building a Ringo (1963 black oyster pearl) Jazz Festival snare drum clone? It's a very fun drum (and a lot cheaper than buying a legit BOP Jazz Festival from the 60s!)
@@drumdotpizza I am interested! I found a great old Jazz Festival from the 60's at Sam Adato's drum shop. So loud! (responsive)🙂
The best thing that DW produces is marketing!
John Good IS a marketing genius.
That´s ok Joel, but in the end, so many layers of paint and polyurethane applied on the drum shell end up doing the same effect as the plastic drum wrap, so I can´t tell the difference in sound.
Great point, thanks for that! Layer upon layer of lacquer/poly/whatever does impeded the vibration of the shell too (the hardness and elasticity of such finishes is quite different than ANY wood that it would be applied to, so yes, it definitely affects the sound, particularly if the layers are thick).
Plastic is plastic! Back in the day covered finishes or pearl finishes, as they were known at that time , were more expensive than lacquer or duco painted finishes . Check out some old drum catalogs.
It's all hogwash. The wraps on the outside. Feel a shell as you hit it.not.mich vibration going on.the wood is just the means.the air is moving from the heads.which is why you can make a plastic drum. You can make a snare out of a pumpkin. You could make a thin concrete floor tom that would probably be pretty fat sounding. Or a concrete bass drum? It'd all end up being about the heads,the tension,the rims. Surely a couple ounces of wrap doesn't trump half a pound of screws and and metal.if it did,than they'd have tried to go away from heavy wood shells,and gone for something lighter.
DW makes (or at least MADE) a concrete snare drum (part of their Collector's series, IIRC).... I want to play one.
In this interview Ringo says he loved Ludwig because it was American, not because it happened to offer a finish that Premier didn’t offer. Of course he did like the black oyster pearl, but he loved the idea of owning an American 🇺🇸 Ludwig kit. See what you think. ua-cam.com/video/11-YG5nVl-0/v-deo.html
Of course it doesn't.
Damn I HATE sparkle and oyster wrap!!!
COVER YOUR DRUMS 😂
I'm for it!!
good analysis.i found your video by searching how to stain drums.i m thinking to remove the wrap from my drums.the main reason is that i bought a second used bass drum for my kit,but its wrap has some wrinkles,and also becouse i bored the sparkle color.I also was thinking that the sound will became more open.its a birch/basswood pearl vision set,which sound a little muted.i will also try other tom mount and heads.
The interior ply of that drum (basswood) isn't finished, that is there is no seal or coating on it. It's bare wood. And basswood is very soft, so the sound of the drum will be dark. If you want to brighten it put a couple coats of tung oil or the like on it (or seal with light coat of lacquer, poly, etc.). That will brighten the drum and make it sound like a more expensive drum.
@@drumdotpizza thanks for the sesponse man
Great content. I love it. Is there any email i can contact you i have some question i would like to ask? Thank you
Thank you!
You can find me at Drumdotpizza on FB. Thanks for being here!