I'm a FUDD and proud of it! Not saying the 9mm can't get the job done, it can, it is an excellent cartridge. What I am saying is, if you think the 45 ACP can't get the job done you are wrong. Either one will serve you fine, just buy the one that you can aford to train with to become and maintain proficiency!...
@@frawdulent I carried a 1911 .45 for 45 years. My revolver loving wife (still has her old M66 duty gun) convinced me of the convenience of an Airweight J-frame. My son has .40 S&W. But all of ‘em work with today’s bullets. Go back 50+ years, and we'd be looking for bigger bullets. We live in a Golden Age for handgun bullets.
I must be a Super Fudd, I've been selling my polymer wornder guns and replacing them with quality S&W and Ruger Revolvers in .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Long Colt, and .454 Casull.
I'm with you on that! I only own one 9mm "wonder gun" now and it's even considered a fudd gun! It's a Ruger P95. I just got the new .357 Rossi RP63 last week to add to my fudd arsenal. Guns are like cars/trucks, nothing beats an all metal body!
even more of a super fudd here. I not only don't own any plastic guns but no Rugers eitehr... too many much much better revolvers . Smiths in J K and N frames Colt Python (1969 one) and troopers and Dan Wesson HB.... 1911's in 45 acp and 38 super even a CZ 52in 7.62x25 (cold war vest penetrator) I do have a few Rugers both dead mans guns (RIP) in 30 carbine that only took 10 or 20 hours to get to function fine. oh and one old Mini 14 first year stainless. 4 redhawks with only one close to in spec so I gave that one to my brother. he loves it. basically.... if you get a good Ruger there is nothign bad I can say to convince anyone and that is fine. Get a bad one? now you have an inaccurate revolver that is also clunky. Sooo as they say... your mileage may vary. One of my Smiths was made in 1919 45 acp model 1917 still running great.
I think there's an ebb and flow to every community. After being swamped with endless polymer 9mm's I think people generally are wanting to try and experience different designs. The polymer 9's are good and reliable but they're also boring.
Just like hunters don't notice the recoil when shooting wild game, people involved in shootings rarely notice a pistol's recoil. It seldom affects the shooter's speed or accuracy during a life-or-death shooting. An example that comes to mind is an officer-involved shooting I worked in the 1990s. The suspect was about 15 feet away when he brought his pistol to eye level and pointed his pistol at the officer, the officer fired two shots from his 45 ACP pistol. One round struck the suspect's gun, and the other hit the suspect above his right eye! I would estimate the two rounds were less than two inches apart. Training is far more important than caliber or recoil.
thats why i carry 45 super, can care less about recoil, i can hit anything within reasonable distance the size of a bottle cap to a tennis ball, practice practice practice, know your firearm well, did i mention im probably considered a fudd too lol
You are honestly one of the best practical long range handgun shooters on YT. I can't count how many times I have watched you shoot a tight group at that distance!
🤔"A little bit more" lol. I get ur shooting what u can find / look for . And leaving out the fact that the surface is 2 times that of the 9 giving u 2 times the chance of hitting a vital organ or artery. U seem to always pick ammo for the 9mm that is the perfect weight and almost never pick ammo that the 45 will shine especially in that gel u love so much. {Its cold now how about u find what the FBI uses for there test?} And find some 180 grain 45 and find 147 grain for the 9mm and see how it does?🙈🙉🙊Thanks for what u do I know its not easy.
45 has most certainly stood the test of time, and always will. And may be a fudd favorite for the very fact that it has stood the test of time. And yes we know people are always going to label it that because it has been around for so long, and it has earned its proper place in history, so it can wear its label as a badge of Honor and distinction, just like as you get older and people start calling you sir. So is 45 ACP fudd lore... Yes, but for all the right reasons 🇺🇲
.45 performs well with ball ammo compared to .40 and 9mm, slower and wider means less penetration and better energy dump. Now I don’t think anyone should be carrying ball ammo unless you’re in the woods where penetration matters. But at that point I’d take a 9mm or .40 as they penetrate a lot deeper with FMJ’s than a .45 will. Then again, most autos short of full power 10mm aren’t great woods guns in general…
what's funny is the 9x19mm is older than the .45 ACP. The crazy Americans made a new cutting edge .45 caliber auto pistol cartridge. Yet somehow .45 is old, 9mm is not...
@@GunSam You can mainly blame that on The newer generations and hip-hop culture, Using 9 mm in so many Gangsta rap videos. When it comes to realizing that 9 mm is more fudd than 45, their ignorance is Bliss.
@@aarongreenfield9038 I remember being a teen in the 90s and heard a lot of the lyrics. None of them made sense to be honest lol. "Gangsta' guys thought a "deuce deuce" was better than a "9". There was several lyrics that said "44" so I grew up thinking a 44 was a semi automatic pistol caliber. Gat, Glock Tec-9 tryin to take mine lol
@@sleeper.simulant7327 Even with FMJs 45acp way over penetrates I have seen it in person. I don't know where people got that idea that 45acp doesn't penetrate.
We will never defy physics, both of these rounds are almost equal in energy,but the .45 acp has more momentum which is mass x velocity. The .45 acp is such a underrated cartridge, if you see it up just 80 feet per second it becomes a beast. Why in hell won't the ammo companies band together and do it. It makes a bigger hole. A 185 grain hp at 1150 fps is the way to go. Great Video!!
Thank you! One thing i really enjoy about this channel is how Sam understands that greater energy ft/lbs doesn't always mean greater efficacy. The 9mm has a momentum value of roughly 20 whereas the 45 is pushing 30 - identical to many 10mm loadings and it does matter!
That goes into that old Taylor Knockout factor or whatever it's called lol. Hunters discovered that if lets say a .44 Magnum VS a .30-30 from a carbine has similar energy, the .44 Magnum is essentially twice as effective at taking game. Same rules apply in self defense.
@@GunSam wouldn't the "shot placement is all that matters" crowd be upset! Another quick example similar to yours: Elmer Keith was rumored to have preferred a 44 SPECIAL loaded heavy over a 357 magnum at times for big animals. This was confirmed by an outfitter/guide I'm acquainted with here in MT who actually went hunting with him on several occasions. Keep up the awesome work, Sam. Really appreciate all of your testing and insights.
You could go a step further and compare 30-06 vs 45-70. The 30-06 is going to be about 1000 ft per second faster, and generate about 100 ft-ibs of energy more than the 45-70. But, I don’t think anyone who knows what they are talking about would actually claim that the 30-06 is more effective at taking bigger game than the 45-70, especially inside of a hundred yards. This is where solely using energy as a stand in for effectiveness becomes quite useless.
Especially when I have seen a lot of bodycam footage where a couple rounds of .40 S&W or similar stop a threat, but it takes 8 rounds of 9mm to work about the same. The 9mm has double the capacity but takes at least 3 times as many rounds to do the same job, so in reality the 9mm has a 'low capacity' for the job at hand.
@@GunSam LMAO, I have seen the same on shows like 'Body Cam'. It seems like if one has 18+ rounds to fire, they empty the mag out and put in another. I USED my 1911 in war, and no matter how doped up the gooks were, a 45 rd stop them cold. I even had a new M3 grease gun and at 130 lbs flying weight sans chicken plate, anybody could fire it with one hand and still control it-no sweat. It wasn't anything like the movies...
Good point about the capacity argument. At the end of the day, use what works best for you. Me personally, I favor the 45 ACP. I don't really care if someone is going to call me a fudd. It's honestly kind of humorous.
I really enjoy your commonsense testing. Standard gel and keeping similar guns and ammos head to head. Not everyone has as much attention to detail. Thank you.
I’m going to pick up some Federal Punch after seeing this. Thanks Sam. Also, I found my 230 grain 45 rounds to be accurate for me out to 100 yards. I’ve shot a couple of coyotes at distance with it and for me, found it to be more accurate than my nine I just compensate for the bullet drop and found it to be pretty consistent. I think it is due to the fact that it stays subsonic the entire distance. Actually surprised myself.
Part of it is plain momentum. A 230 gr bullet won't drift too much at that distance, even a subsonic 9mm might drift from air resistance more than a .45 ACP.
lot of momentum too so less wind effecting it I think, but also higher velocity bullets like hot 9mm or .357 sig I think their rotational force from the barrel sends them whatever direction the barrel twist is in. Back when guys shot cans and such 100 yrs w .38s colt barrels went other direction etc. can find some stuff on that I think
My buddy and I shoot steel hangers quite a bit. We have Ronin Commanders in 9mm and love them. But we both saw that .45 acp swinging the steel noticably harder. We've both switched to .45 1911s for EDC. If that makes me a Fudd, I'll accept that term. If it was good enough for Jeff Cooper, it's sure good enough for me!
Current 9mm defensive loads are good, but... For me: Larger diameter bullet Larger diameter expansion = more blood loss and tissue damage This is why I choose 45ACP for duty AND personal defense!
Both the 9mm and .45 Federal Punch are my EDC rounds for my family. When in the woods I use the .45 when I carry holstered. The rest of our concealed carry for urban/city is 9mm. I think the .45 generally performs about 5-10% better, which is why I prefer it for black bear defense.
Yeah that's sort of how I see it. It's a little better than 9mm. As it's been said, is the juice worth the squeeze, is 5% more enough to drop the capacity? To me it is as I study this stuff, it's rare to go over 5 rounds in a self defense scenario, so it's 5 rounds of 9mm or 5 rounds of .45, with the 9mm probably taking 5 shots to work and the .45 probably taking 2 shots to work. In that 5 round window, 5-10% might be split seconds, but that's a lot of time in a gunfight, i'll take what advantage I can get.
Maybe I am an old Fudd. Carried a .45 the majority of an almost 40 year career. Eleven of those years as a range master for a mid size mid-west sheriff’s office. This plus. ten years teaching in police academies My conclusion after thousands and thousands of rounds with both? Well, I can say I could have skipped all the research had this video been posted because it is how it is with these two. Accurate hits matter, misses don’t which often includes non-vital hits. I told my students if you can carry it in a practical duty holster it is not a death ray, and no latest greatest ammunition will make it so. The only thing I can add to this great presentation is the wrists, elbows and even shoulders do suffer with decades of high round count .45 ball ammunition being fired. Why my high round count days now as few as they may be at this point are mostly 9mm. Never gave it a thought until my early 50s, when it started to matter by my early 60s there was no denying it. Solid hits matter, misses don’t. Ignore your ego, accept what you can really hit with, not what you wish you could hit with. As to capacity, more is always better, but accuracy always comes first if the guns too fat to manage properly well guard against that ego thing again cause it wont save you.
Both did well. The two main issues here are recoil and capacity. Some people think the 45 ACP kicks too much so they prefer the 9 mm. Some prefer the higher capacity of the 9 mm vs the 45 ACP. So it boils down to personal preference between the two kinds of ammo tested.
@@hoffpbass yes. a full sized all steel 1911 shoots very pleasant. Just as soft shooting or maybe even softer shooting than a 9mm imo. But a .45 caliber glock or other lightweight polymer pistol is a totally different animal lol. Way more felt recoil. It's not more than the average grown man could handle though. But being able to "handle" the recoil is one thing. How quick your follow up shots are is another thing. And the average person is going to get much quicker follow up shots with a 9mm vs a .45. So yeah, the .45 is a great caliber. With comparable loads, it will do more damage. But with modern ammo, the 9mm is good enough and you get quicker follow up shots, more capacity, a lot more variety of guns to choose from, and the ammo is quite a bit cheaper as well. That's why most people choose 9mm. I don't think there's too many people that think .45 sucks though or isnt an effective caliber. If they do, then they know absolutely nothing about firearms.
I have found from shooting my Glock 41 5.3" and Glock 36 3.7" that I used to have, is that 9mm and .45 ACP are near identical for recoil. It's only when .45 ACP+P enters the chat does the recoil seem to really spike, no pun intended, with .45 caliber.
@@GunSamyep, and Mr. Browning designed the 1911 to use 200 grain rounds. The 200 gr gold dots are really good as is the lighter 185gr Barnes, and hst = yes!! And there’s always the whole 2world wars argument. Train and practice with whatever you’re comfortable with and become proficient with it. Great video!
@@JohnLee-jk5ew Two world wars, Korea, and for me, Vietnam. That's where I feel in love with the 45 acp, both in my issued 1911 and my"miracle" M3 grease gun.
Just discovered your computer channel...old guy here, you make useful presentations, not entertainment stuff. 9 x 19 or .45 ACP ? I bought one of each back in AD 1989, a SIG-Sauer P228, and a P220. First semi-auto sidearms I ever shot. Can't say anything negative about the guns themselves, or the cartridges themselves. That said, revolvers are my choice in sidearms, however, under certain circumstances, a semi-auto does offer advantages. Shoot what you shoot best with, it ain't so much the size of the hole, it's that the hole is where it is. Thanks again Sam, great work.
If you are comparing something like a 9mm 124gr. or 147gr. Federal HST especially +P or something better out of a long barrel vs. some cheap 45 ACP ball ammo, then yes you're going to get better results with the 9mm, but in any fair comparison using the same brand and model ammunition and same length barrel, the 45 ACP is going to blow the 9mm out of the water every time as far as ballistics go.
The one guy on Fox a few days ago talking about Zuckerberg was like "we all love the story of a repentant sinner, but it would be nice if he did this before being caught".
I wish there was a consistant uniform method for measuring the crush cavity of a hollow point. Ballistics gel isn't designed to do it and eyeballing isn't scientific. Something like soap used as a medium to shoot in to. Then squirt a resin into the cavity left by the hollow point. The resin dries and is removed and then the volume of the resin could be measured.
@@timrobinson6573 Yeah, I agree. It's frustrating to me, as a trained lab scientist, to see how much weight is given to the 'wound channels' in ballistics gel when that's not the design or purpose of the test. It's only meant to show two things: 1) ideal expansion and 2) relative (key word, not absolute) penetration. That's it. Any other conclusions based on the gel are not really valid. This is exacerbated by the fact gel testing (and the myriad erroneous conclusions based on those tests) has incentivized ammo mfgs to create ammunition that performs well *to the test* as opposed to performing well in real-world use.
@@n0tthemessiahYep. Well said: developing the load to the test, instead of the testing following from real world results. It's not as empirical as people would like to think. Back in the day they used to shoot into animals that were analagous to human body structure. I think that made a lot more sense. Barring that, things such as Paul Harrel's Meat Target have great utility. And we also had actual empirical models from guys such as Throniley, where he developed his index. Much can be extracted from his observations. Level 45 is for antelope, 50 is marked for mule deer and such like: 9×19 115 gr. FMJ would come in at ~34, whereas 45 ACP 230 grain would sit at ~ 53. The gel results can often reflect these sort of empirical models' predictions much more than purely theoretical models (e.g. ft./lbs. of energy) do. One of the big flaws though, as you pointed out, is the gel media itself started being looked at (at least by the buying public) as a way to assess tissue damage. When we couple that with the physical fact that terminal velocity results in significant changes in bullet gel "tissue damage," the theoretical models assume greater weight over the empirical models. In other words, the theoretical models start being treated more and more as empirical, because the gel is empirically observed. But the gel tests are themselves designed to evaluate on the theoretical modeling basis. So a theoretical model has become viewed now as empiricism, which is largely why everyone runs around talking ft./lbs. instead of meplat size, cutting edges, momentum, etc.
61% more surface area(.451v.355) and 2x the mass of "general" projectiles(230v115). If all the differences are added, 9 has greater capacity in similar sized platforms so it gets ahead in the zombie apocalypse. I have no issue with anyone wishing to protect themselves with either, and in the zombie apocalypse I will likely have both and a few others as well.😉
Excellent test. I will still stay with 124 +P HST in my 9 and 230 Gold Dot +P in my 45. After these results I'm convinced the Punch is acceptable if i couldn't get my primary loads. I like your hair style.
9mm is a good back up. 40,45,10mm will be a lot better option for a serious situation. The gel is a great test but many people think it’s a 1 to 1 to real life…they’re extremely wrong! Nice fresh hair cut you got sir 🫡looking good
Wonderful test, they both did really well for a more budget loading. The 45 ACP wins the day. It has more energy, bigger expansion and a lot more momentum. You can see that by how much the steel target moves.
The 9mm used to perform poorly because of the FMJ bullets, and 45ACP worked in spite of those bullets just by making a bigger hole. With modern bullet designs, which are light years ahead of 50 years ago, it's all about energy and a hot 9 is about the same as a 45 and the terminal effect is very similar. So in modern times they are very similar although of course a 9 usually has a bigger magazine, and that can be a factor in some circumstances. The 45 delivers a bit more energy, but in real terms I can't see that mattering a lot. What happens when a bullet hits a human target depends a lot on that human and their attitude at that instant. Me? I am 82 years old and have small hands, so my 1911 is easier for me to control and hit fast with, so I prefer it but that's for range work. Were it permitted to carry a gun in my country (NZ) I'd probably end up with something like a Glock 19... lighter to carry and plenty of grunt in a pinch should the excrement contact the rotary atmospheric turbulator. Still love "old slabsides" though... but then Glock make a 45 too..... How fortunate we are to have so much choice... 🙂
Hey Sam i ran across a guy on youtube called "integrative preparedness" he is a retired cop he did a excellent video about why people shouldn't carry a 9mm now me personally i have no problem with what people carry. But some of his points were hard to ignore ...... excellent comparison tho
My Ruger American 45 ACP duty pro is a very soft recoil 45 and not only was it designed for +P but sustained +P required by law enforcement as their part in the building the pistol, it was a attempt by Ruger to get military and law enforcement contracts and it's one of those good pistols hidden in plain sight, it's big and has weight and pro model means no frame mounted safety so similar to a Glock with trigger shoe and safety plunger like a Glock, very safe with the proper holster, strong belt and gun handling etiquette
I have various calibers (9mm, 40, 357 mag, 357 sig, 10mm, and 45) and each have their own special virtues. In my opinion a 9mm is good enough for me and I like the extra capacity it usually has over most of my other calibers, but a 45 is good too, as long as you know it’s limitations (mostly range and drop). But both are adequate for self defense. It boils down to which one you prefer or shoot well.
My studies of ballistics has lead me to the answer, that a 9mm can be as good as other cartridges, as long as it's about a 5" barrel and it's a hot +P or +P+. I know that's pretty specific, but those are my findings. The energy numbers, energy dump, low penetration that all have similarities in over 90 percentile one shot stop cartridges, are only obtained with a 5" +/- barrel and hotter +P or +P+ ammo, typically 115-124 gr JHP bullets.
My 45 load is a 200 grain swc cast and coated at around 1000 fps+ it is a great all around load. works on critters and sodas and rattlers and makes nice paper punch holes and being a 'target' buillet it shoots like.... well... a target round.
both calibers you tested equally effective. my Taurus pt845 45acp, 12in magazine,.1 in barrel, my finish business loads cronygraphed .255 gr gt bullets with no pressure signs 950fps, 511ft/lb energy using 450smc load data . expansion 7/8 in, retaining weight 246gr. works flawlessly and accurately. if I remember correctly I've loaded it 970 fps out of the Taurus 45acp and hi point 45acp with no issues with either one. I would load equal to buffalo bore 45super 255gr gc - hcswc at 1070fps but it's deadly accurate at 18yds at 937-950 fps. I don't shoot it much just self defense and hunting. my outher loads standard and + p 45acp. this was another wonderful video as always. papa wishing you well 😊
Tbh, I think the term “fudd” has been floated out in the online space as a way to divide and conquer among the gun culture. As much as this sound’s conspiratorial, I believe it to be correct. I don’t know anyone, aside from the online world, that uses the term fudd in a non ironic way. Us young gun guys in real life love us some big bore revolvers and lever guns, and we tend to appreciate the knowledge and wisdom of the older generations. When you start to realize that the snarky comments about 9mm being the best are actually bots, that is when your mind will be blown.
Yo! Been wondering what happened to u?😊 All i watch is gun stuff on UA-cam just about,but i dont get notifications or even suggestions for gun stuff! Makes me so mad! 😡😡 Ive carried 9mm and 45acp when i was younger and felt like both had there pros and cons. Something about carrying that 45acp just makes you walk different 😊 So between those 2 i always went 45acp when i could..lol I like the capacity and velocity on 9s..though At my age now though, I'm still on 38special/357mag now days ! Looked at some 327..but in the end i decided to go 357 mainly cause i want a companion lever action rifle! Got a 6.5in rough rider 22lr for xmas!😊 What a fun gun to shoot!😊💯💯 Now that i kno UA-cam isnt notifying me ill look manually 😊 Great vid sir! Thnk u😊😊 💯🫡🤘☮️
People are sheep. They heard it on the internet, so it must be true. 9mm is the lowest effectively viable self defense round. Easy for most people to handle and has a good size/form factor.That’s it.
The funny thing too for the mag capacity argument is what I've always seen is 9mm guys will present a glock 17 (17rd mags) at minimum as their base line. However when you ask them what they themselves carry it's usually something like a Glock 43x or P365XL (10-12rd capacity for both). So they're already below where they would be for any other caliber, and of course a smaller 40 or 45 typically holds about 1-2 less rounds on average. They will insist this will make or break a gunfight anyways
.45ACP is a very tame round in my experience. Low velocity, high weight cartridges give a lot of push but very little snap, so it recoils up higher, but hurts a lot less. There are many reasons it was used for such a long period of time, chief among them was terminal effect and shootability. That being said I've shot many automatics both .45ACP and 9mm and never felt I had much need for either an automatic or a plastic gun, let alone a plastic automatic. I'll stick with my steel .38 revolvers, they have sufficient terminal effect, sufficient capacity, ammunition is not too expensive (yet) and the cartridge is imminently reloadable.
Where I live, the state police carried G21s with 230 grain Bonded Golden Saber for years. Had one successful gunfight after another with the combo. Felons went down quickly. A few years ago, they switched to Winchester Ranger T 124+P 9mm. Since the switch, almost all of their 9mm gunfights have been multi-round engagements with disappointing results.
FINE Shooting! I've tested 9mm punch Gun Sam's OG Bologna test 3.2" & "Modern Meat Target" 3.3" & 5" so can verify in different protocols! Upcoming .38 vs .40 punch IN SNUBS in Water Jugs Scientifically Correlated to Organic Gel! Sam you are going to like 3 of the NEW Defensive Rounds in Cool Calibers Federal is launching at Shot Show! They liked your .32 HSD video! No promises but I may have dropped your info.....
Hi Sam, neither one is a bad choice from what I see. However, if you discount one flyer to the left, your group at 75 yards with the 45 is absolutely remarkable, you even doubled a hit, moving the rear sight to the left just a little bit would make for a 5" centered group, which is rifle like accuracy.
No, I never had one. My first revolver though was a Rossi 462 if I recall the name right. Identical revolver but with a 2" barrel. Seemed nice at the time when I had it 16 years ago.
I'm a hybrid guy. I carry a G23 with 180 grain HSTs. Seriously, either of these rounds would do the job but you have to admit the 45 does make a bigger hole...
In my opinion, you have it right. I personally do not use .45 ACP for defense, but I do use .40 S&W, so anytime I argue for the .45 ACP, I am basically arguing for the .40 S&W as well. The .40 S&W has all the attributes with basically every bullet weight that when gel tested, show the same attributes with all the cartridges that are over 90% one shot stop. Those attributes are being 400 ft lbs energy or higher, being 155 gr+ and stopping within 14" of organic gel. In my testing, with the MDF in place I get about the same penetration as organic gel, but the rounds known to be over 90% OSS always open up big before they go through the MDF. Most 9mm rounds don't do this, a couple do, a couple .45 ACP rounds do too but not all....but the .357 Mag and .40 S&W do that instant expansion thing and penetrate less than 14", and .40 S&W is unique in that several loads and bullet weights do that. With .357 Mag it's only the 125 gr SJHP that does, with 9mm it's only the 9BPLE that does, with .45 ACP its only the Hydrashok that does, but almost every .40 S&W does which makes it legitimately the best caliber I have tested overall.
I have pistols in 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp because they are all proven to be effective. Anyone who dismisses .45acp as "fudd" and no longer relevant is talking out of their butt. It consistently outperforms 9mm. Thats always dismissed because 9mm comes close according to the FBI tests but better performance is still better performance. The advantage of 9mm is capacity. The recoil difference really only matters if you're shooting competition on the clock, you would have to be one experienced gunfighter to notice recoil during the stress of a defensive shooting. My personal carry gun is 9mm because I like the additional capacity but I would carry a .45acp without a second thought. I do carry the .45acp when I can carry a larger gun. I agree with everything you said here.
A larger caliber can always become a smaller caliber, not vice versa. I have been carrying a 9 BHP for decades and took much grief from those saying if it doesn’t start with a 4 you ain’t serious. When I showed them BB at 500 ftlbs they didn’t believe me. Now, all of those people swear by the 9. But, round for round there is little doubt which one is better if you can shoot it . A 45 Super and 45 SMC can be fired in the same pistol in a few minutes to change to heavier springs or some are fine as is if additional power is needed.
I like 40, so I am grampa Fudd, according to the 9'ers. I get the same size pistol as a 9MM with a couple less rounds. I kinda like 40 over 45 too. To carry a 45, I basically have to go to an officer's 1911 and get 7+1. The Punch are acceptable to good. Probably don't see it worth saving a few bucks over HST though.
The .40 S&W is really the best cartridge out there, overall. What you see with stopping power accounts, is that whenever a round his 400 ft lbs energy, then stops within 14" of gel while expanding before hitting the MDF, those rounds in real recoded data are all well over 90% one shot stop. There's many calibers that do this but they usually only have one load that does this like the .357 Mag 125 gr SJHP for example, but 158 gr goes deeper, and thus shown closer to the 80 percentile stopping power. The .40 S&W, basically every normal bullet weight from 155 to 180 gr has loads that will expand right away and stop within 14" of gel. Out of all the random guns and ammo out there, the statistics would show that a person with a .40 S&W with most ammo will be more protected than any other random caliber.
In your long slides you should do some 147 testings for the 9 mm I use HSTs in my 3.7-in CZ and they seem fabulous. It would cool to be a series out of lightweight medium weight and heavyweights. Side note you should get a 3.8 in 10 mm for testing, The Springfield XDE is extraordinary and they discontinued the rest and it's not that expensive, not get a Glock 29. Not telling you what to get but that Springfield is reliable and you have multi barrel lengths and other calibers.
I feel like the 45 ACP "slaps" harder than 9mm, when I'm shooting bowling pins or steel targets. It would seem that that "slap" would translate to bigger shock if hitting a human?
It might. Depends on the load, but generally that 'slap' is translated in the human body to more of a consistent straight line penetration. It won't slap a person harder, but it will consistently go deeper through bones than 9mm, which I guess could slap the life and fight out of someone better.
If your resources permit it, please do a 9mm vs 45 ACP test but use the lowest cost ammunition you can find from each caliber. To me, this is especially valuable based on the shortages a few years ago. Thank you for your consideration.
I like Punch. I have quite a bit of it in a handful of calibers. Whenever I see it on sale I buy. I got some at Academy a while back for I think like $12 a box. Midway has sales often enough and when they do I always buy some. I bought a bunch of other random loads that were on sale there a while back from Underwood and another brand having a hard time remembering the brand but I think the company is more known for match stuff but what I got was 9mm that had bonded bullets not sure what bullets they are but its 124 grain bonded. Atomic I think is the brand. I carry an M&P 45 Shield loaded with 230 grain +P HST. I carry some other stuff too but that has been the main pistol I have carried the last 4-5 years. Before that for years I mostly carried my Glock 27 with HST too not sure if it was 180 grain or not I have loaded in that and the spare mag I always carried has some of that Barnes TacXPD or whatever they call their copper loads. Academy had that Barnes stuff on clearance for I think $8 per box quite a while back and I think I bought 10 boxes of it. Never know what you are going to find on clearance in there bought a lot of ammo there and Field and Stream that was randomly on clearance.
Double Tap, and Remington Make great .45 ACP loads. Lots of other companies are putting out weak .45 acp loads just to make the 9 Mighty Mite Soy boys feel better about their choice. But, I digress.
In all the ballistics tests I've seen between 9mm and .45 I've noticed it's more common for .45 auto hollowpoints to not expand reliably even using the same brands in comparison, so you have to be a lot more careful in choosing carry ammo or at least are more limited with your options at local stores. I've honestly gone out of my way to try and research and see that .45 is better than 9mm and I'm just not really convinced, like you said even if .45 acp is better in terms of damage to the target it's only a little better. And man sometimes it really is only A LITTLE better at best. The thing about the capacity argument is true, I personally can't think I would ever be in a place where a little .38 revolver or .380 semi auto handgun wouldn't feel like enough gun unless I were in bear country. So yeah that's not really a big deal to me, the capacity difference between 9mm and .45, but 9mm does have the edge there. Ultimately I think Georg Luger beat John Browning with this one, but that's not to say the .45 is bad. I have several .45s, really enjoy my USP, not getting rid of them, but imo 9mm is better but for the average person it doesn't really matter beyond the shooter's comfort with the round.
Gun sam.my colt 1911.is a heavy gun. And even with plus p ammo the recoil is very manageable. I love my 1911s. .the 1911 is a hard gun to concealed carry😊
In a ‘74 gunfight I ran out of ammo after firing 12 rounds through my issued Colt Detective Spl. My partner was hit in the chest (no vest then) w/one round from the bad guy’s .45 Long Colt and said it felt like being slammed w/a telephone pole. Given that experience, as well as these two calibers performance in your test, I’d go w/the 9MM b/c you can carry more ammo in each mag. Good video Sam.
Thanks for all your perspectives old cop, cartridge loops or dump punches because they looked better in uniform picks then the speedloaders needed until when? Have you seen all of "DanTheWolfman's Cold Detective" vids, I think you will get excited when I unveil the one of a kind Colt Black Beauty soon!
Okay, humor me, I'm in my 70's and I haven't a clue what a 'FUDD' is with the one exception of an Elmer Fudd. And I do have an old 1911 that works just fine and a small carbine that is chambered for the 45 acp, that's it. I was first introduced to the 45 acp,(1911) when I was in the army. Since it wasn't broke, it worked very well, I've had a 45 ever since then,(1968) with no complaints other than the ammo sure has gone up in price. So, I guess I'm an 'old fudd'. I can live with that...
Elmer Fudd is the inspiration. He hunts with a shotgun. Fudds are basically people who are totally fine with government overreaching gun laws as long as it does not effect their ability to hunt. Like if I owned a shotgun and I hunt, and the government bans all AR-15s, makes pistol magazine capacity limits and whatnot and I was like "Don't matter to me, I can still hunt". A Fudd doesn't look at the big picture of freedoms. There's some crossover definition to people who carry 'outdated' firearms as well. Like if I think a 5 shot revolver or 1911 is "all you need" the way a shotgun is "all you need", well maybe i'm a Fudd and somehow against high capacity 9mm pistols or other modern 2A tools. So if I like .45 ACP - I might be saying all you really need is a 1911.
@@GunSam Thank you for clearing that up for me. I guess I'm a "multi Fudd" as I have a small, but varied collection in both hand guns and long guns. And I even own several shotguns-weally I do ;}>
Another video, that confirmed my opinion: These pistol calibres are pretty close. The differences between good and bad ammo within the same calibre are bigger than the differences between 9 mm, .40 and .45.
It’s an either/or for me, and HST is my ammo choice. I’ve always said I’ll never sell my 19 or my 21. My buddy calls me a Glocktard and I wear the comment with a smile. I like the results I see with Punch ammo. It will be interesting to see when you post the HST video comparison. I switched from Gold Dots to HST watching TN9’s videos. Could yours be videos that make switch from HST? We shall see! Keep up the good work.
Malfunction looked like a limp wrist. Happens with most when going for utmost accuracy - we tend to remove pressure from the gun and not provide the minimum resistance needed for proper cycling. Interesting video
What was significant was that the .45 bullet hit lower, which confirms the better accuracy of the 9mm and the greater stopping power of the .45 ACP. Thanks for your tests.
9mm vs. 45 ACP, does that every get old? Both have advantages and disadvantages. Back in the early days of JHP semi-auto loads, the 45 ACP was usually inconsistent with expansion, 9mm was consistent with 115 grain bullets at +P and +P+ pressure. Modern hollow point bullets are a lot better and don't need 1200 fps to expand, but still tend to better when you get above 900 fps. Very nice test.
Thanks. It never gets old because the rage of the 9mm fanboy is funny. To be clear, I am a fanboy of everything, all are pretty good, but these guys that came out of nowhere challenging me to a debate, where they say 9mm is better than every caliber and I am wrong to disagree, and the rage they have when 9mm tends to not do better, often do worse than everything else, I find that funny so to me it never gets old. To the more mentally stable people, it also never gets old because it's just cool to see where we came from as people, how at one point 100 years ago we thought 230 gr and dropping a horse was important, but now days we can squeeze a lot from the little 9mm and it works fine too, if you like ballistics, you like ballistics.
If you ask me, yes they have improved with .45 ACP. If you ask a 9mm fanboy, no - 9mm is now all +P+ super high tech and 4,000 FPS, computer controlled expansion, new pistol designs 25+1 but .45 ACP only comes in 3 shot pistols and the ammo is all ball ammo at 400 FPS.
My test with Federal HST 9mm+P 124 gr JHP VS Federal HST .45 ACP+P 230 gr JHP. ua-cam.com/video/lqXyKhXsT5c/v-deo.html
I'm a FUDD and proud of it! Not saying the 9mm can't get the job done, it can, it is an excellent cartridge. What I am saying is, if you think the 45 ACP can't get the job done you are wrong. Either one will serve you fine, just buy the one that you can aford to train with to become and maintain proficiency!...
Well said Mike!
I can definitely go along with that. Both will work just fine.
40S&W for the win!
@@frawdulent I carried a 1911 .45 for 45 years. My revolver loving wife (still has her old M66 duty gun) convinced me of the convenience of an Airweight J-frame. My son has .40 S&W. But all of ‘em work with today’s bullets. Go back 50+ years, and we'd be looking for bigger bullets. We live in a Golden Age for handgun bullets.
Just costs a LOT.
I must be a Super Fudd, I've been selling my polymer wornder guns and replacing them with quality
S&W and Ruger Revolvers in .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Long Colt, and .454 Casull.
I'm with you on that! I only own one 9mm "wonder gun" now and it's even considered a fudd gun! It's a Ruger P95. I just got the new .357 Rossi RP63 last week to add to my fudd arsenal. Guns are like cars/trucks, nothing beats an all metal body!
Don’t sell, only buy.
even more of a super fudd here. I not only don't own any plastic guns but no Rugers eitehr... too many much much better revolvers . Smiths in J K and N frames Colt Python (1969 one) and troopers and Dan Wesson HB.... 1911's in 45 acp and 38 super even a CZ 52in 7.62x25 (cold war vest penetrator) I do have a few Rugers both dead mans guns (RIP) in 30 carbine that only took 10 or 20 hours to get to function fine. oh and one old Mini 14 first year stainless. 4 redhawks with only one close to in spec so I gave that one to my brother. he loves it. basically.... if you get a good Ruger there is nothign bad I can say to convince anyone and that is fine. Get a bad one? now you have an inaccurate revolver that is also clunky. Sooo as they say... your mileage may vary. One of my Smiths was made in 1919 45 acp model 1917 still running great.
That don't make you a fud bro, that just means you're smart.
I think there's an ebb and flow to every community. After being swamped with endless polymer 9mm's I think people generally are wanting to try and experience different designs. The polymer 9's are good and reliable but they're also boring.
Just like hunters don't notice the recoil when shooting wild game, people involved in shootings rarely notice a pistol's recoil. It seldom affects the shooter's speed or accuracy during a life-or-death shooting.
An example that comes to mind is an officer-involved shooting I worked in the 1990s. The suspect was about 15 feet away when he brought his pistol to eye level and pointed his pistol at the officer, the officer fired two shots from his 45 ACP pistol. One round struck the suspect's gun, and the other hit the suspect above his right eye! I would estimate the two rounds were less than two inches apart. Training is far more important than caliber or recoil.
thats why i carry 45 super, can care less about recoil, i can hit anything within reasonable distance the size of a bottle cap to a tennis ball, practice practice practice, know your firearm well, did i mention im probably considered a fudd too lol
You are honestly one of the best practical long range handgun shooters on YT. I can't count how many times I have watched you shoot a tight group at that distance!
Thanks for watching!
Filmed December 9th 2024, before I filmed the 9mm+P VS .45 ACP+P Federal HST test.
To answer your question yes 45 is FUDD. Some straight Fuddlore is “well a 9mm makes expand but a 45 dont shrink” 😂
@@Everything2A Not sure how reality is lore. I could probably get an unplated lead .45 to be smaller after shooting through auto glass though.
🤔"A little bit more" lol. I get ur shooting what u can find / look for . And leaving out the fact that the surface is 2 times that of the 9 giving u 2 times the chance of hitting a vital organ or artery. U seem to always pick ammo for the 9mm that is the perfect weight and almost never pick ammo that the 45 will shine especially in that gel u love so much. {Its cold now how about u find what the FBI uses for there test?} And find some 180 grain 45 and find 147 grain for the 9mm and see how it does?🙈🙉🙊Thanks for what u do I know its not easy.
45ACP keeps you alive 9 will make you whine!!!!😂😂😂
How kind of u ro delete perfectly good sense!🤣
.45acp and .357mag are gold standards for defence.
9mm and .38 are great for small concealed pistols, but to say they are just as good is stupid.
as always bringing truth and facts not opinions. Your videos ROCK!!!
Thanks
45 has most certainly stood the test of time, and always will. And may be a fudd favorite for the very fact that it has stood the test of time. And yes we know people are always going to label it that because it has been around for so long, and it has earned its proper place in history, so it can wear its label as a badge of Honor and distinction, just like as you get older and people start calling you sir. So is 45 ACP fudd lore... Yes, but for all the right reasons 🇺🇲
.45 performs well with ball ammo compared to .40 and 9mm, slower and wider means less penetration and better energy dump. Now I don’t think anyone should be carrying ball ammo unless you’re in the woods where penetration matters. But at that point I’d take a 9mm or .40 as they penetrate a lot deeper with FMJ’s than a .45 will. Then again, most autos short of full power 10mm aren’t great woods guns in general…
what's funny is the 9x19mm is older than the .45 ACP. The crazy Americans made a new cutting edge .45 caliber auto pistol cartridge. Yet somehow .45 is old, 9mm is not...
@@GunSam You can mainly blame that on The newer generations and hip-hop culture, Using 9 mm in so many Gangsta rap videos. When it comes to realizing that 9 mm is more fudd than 45, their ignorance is Bliss.
@@aarongreenfield9038 I remember being a teen in the 90s and heard a lot of the lyrics. None of them made sense to be honest lol. "Gangsta' guys thought a "deuce deuce" was better than a "9". There was several lyrics that said "44" so I grew up thinking a 44 was a semi automatic pistol caliber. Gat, Glock Tec-9 tryin to take mine lol
@@sleeper.simulant7327
Even with FMJs 45acp way over penetrates I have seen it in person. I don't know where people got that idea that 45acp doesn't penetrate.
We will never defy physics, both of these rounds are almost equal in energy,but the .45 acp has more momentum which is mass x velocity. The .45 acp is such a underrated cartridge, if you see it up just 80 feet per second it becomes a beast. Why in hell won't the ammo companies band together and do it. It makes a bigger hole. A 185 grain hp at 1150 fps is the way to go. Great Video!!
You are one helluva shot. 75 yards and no misses? I couldn’t do that. 👍🏼👍🏼
Glad to see you crack the 80K subscriber mark. Good job on your videos.
Thank you
Thank you!
One thing i really enjoy about this channel is how Sam understands that greater energy ft/lbs doesn't always mean greater efficacy.
The 9mm has a momentum value of roughly 20 whereas the 45 is pushing 30 - identical to many 10mm loadings and it does matter!
That goes into that old Taylor Knockout factor or whatever it's called lol. Hunters discovered that if lets say a .44 Magnum VS a .30-30 from a carbine has similar energy, the .44 Magnum is essentially twice as effective at taking game. Same rules apply in self defense.
@@GunSamI agree, I send people that information often. It’s strange, nobody seems to care these studies or information.
@@GunSam wouldn't the "shot placement is all that matters" crowd be upset!
Another quick example similar to yours:
Elmer Keith was rumored to have preferred a 44 SPECIAL loaded heavy over a 357 magnum at times for big animals. This was confirmed by an outfitter/guide I'm acquainted with here in MT who actually went hunting with him on several occasions.
Keep up the awesome work, Sam. Really appreciate all of your testing and insights.
Insane meat riding
You could go a step further and compare 30-06 vs 45-70. The 30-06 is going to be about 1000 ft per second faster, and generate about 100 ft-ibs of energy more than the 45-70. But, I don’t think anyone who knows what they are talking about would actually claim that the 30-06 is more effective at taking bigger game than the 45-70, especially inside of a hundred yards. This is where solely using energy as a stand in for effectiveness becomes quite useless.
We carry 1911s chambered in 45 for work. Carrying 8+1 rounds has not been an issue.
Especially when I have seen a lot of bodycam footage where a couple rounds of .40 S&W or similar stop a threat, but it takes 8 rounds of 9mm to work about the same. The 9mm has double the capacity but takes at least 3 times as many rounds to do the same job, so in reality the 9mm has a 'low capacity' for the job at hand.
@@GunSam
There used to be a lot of police shootings videos showing exactly what you mentioned but UA-cam took those videos down.
Where do you work, very few still rocking 1911's
Private security? I haven’t seen an LEO carry a 1911 in at least 15 years
@@GunSam LMAO, I have seen the same on shows like 'Body Cam'. It seems like if one has 18+ rounds to fire, they empty the mag out and put in another. I USED my 1911 in war, and no matter how doped up the gooks were, a 45 rd stop them cold. I even had a new M3 grease gun and at 130 lbs flying weight sans chicken plate, anybody could fire it with one hand and still control it-no sweat. It wasn't anything like the movies...
Thank you, Sam for comparing 9mm vs .45 ACP. I appreciate the thought and effort you put into these presentations!
I really like the expansion on the .45 HST (not the Punch) the petals make a beautiful pattern and are sure to impress the coroner.
Good point about the capacity argument. At the end of the day, use what works best for you. Me personally, I favor the 45 ACP. I don't really care if someone is going to call me a fudd. It's honestly kind of humorous.
I have been called a boomer before, which is funny as I barely made gen x. 45 years old
I really enjoy your commonsense testing. Standard gel and keeping similar guns and ammos head to head. Not everyone has as much attention to detail. Thank you.
Thank you, always--for your consistent testing & unbiased answers / results--thoroughly enjoy all your content--great, great channel!
I’m going to pick up some Federal Punch after seeing this. Thanks Sam. Also, I found my 230 grain 45 rounds to be accurate for me out to 100 yards. I’ve shot a couple of coyotes at distance with it and for me, found it to be more accurate than my nine I just compensate for the bullet drop and found it to be pretty consistent. I think it is due to the fact that it stays subsonic the entire distance. Actually surprised myself.
Part of it is plain momentum. A 230 gr bullet won't drift too much at that distance, even a subsonic 9mm might drift from air resistance more than a .45 ACP.
lot of momentum too so less wind effecting it I think, but also higher velocity bullets like hot 9mm or .357 sig I think their rotational force from the barrel sends them whatever direction the barrel twist is in. Back when guys shot cans and such 100 yrs w .38s colt barrels went other direction etc. can find some stuff on that I think
My buddy and I shoot steel hangers quite a bit. We have Ronin Commanders in 9mm and love them. But we both saw that .45 acp swinging the steel noticably harder. We've both switched to .45 1911s for EDC. If that makes me a Fudd, I'll accept that term. If it was good enough for Jeff Cooper, it's sure good enough for me!
Stay warm Sam, the snow is coming! Here in west MI its getting wild ❄️
Current 9mm defensive loads are good, but...
For me:
Larger diameter bullet
Larger diameter expansion
= more blood loss and tissue damage
This is why I choose 45ACP for duty AND personal defense!
But the 9mm can make more holes when comparing guns of the same size especially makes a difference when you start getting into the smaller guns
Both the 9mm and .45 Federal Punch are my EDC rounds for my family. When in the woods I use the .45 when I carry holstered. The rest of our concealed carry for urban/city is 9mm. I think the .45 generally performs about 5-10% better, which is why I prefer it for black bear defense.
Yeah that's sort of how I see it. It's a little better than 9mm. As it's been said, is the juice worth the squeeze, is 5% more enough to drop the capacity? To me it is as I study this stuff, it's rare to go over 5 rounds in a self defense scenario, so it's 5 rounds of 9mm or 5 rounds of .45, with the 9mm probably taking 5 shots to work and the .45 probably taking 2 shots to work. In that 5 round window, 5-10% might be split seconds, but that's a lot of time in a gunfight, i'll take what advantage I can get.
Maybe I am an old Fudd. Carried a .45 the majority of an almost 40 year career. Eleven of those years as a range master for a mid size mid-west sheriff’s office. This plus. ten years teaching in police academies My conclusion after thousands and thousands of rounds with both? Well, I can say I could have skipped all the research had this video been posted because it is how it is with these two. Accurate hits matter, misses don’t which often includes non-vital hits. I told my students if you can carry it in a practical duty holster it is not a death ray, and no latest greatest ammunition will make it so. The only thing I can add to this great presentation is the wrists, elbows and even shoulders do suffer with decades of high round count .45 ball ammunition being fired. Why my high round count days now as few as they may be at this point are mostly 9mm. Never gave it a thought until my early 50s, when it started to matter by my early 60s there was no denying it. Solid hits matter, misses don’t. Ignore your ego, accept what you can really hit with, not what you wish you could hit with. As to capacity, more is always better, but accuracy always comes first if the guns too fat to manage properly well guard against that ego thing again cause it wont save you.
Thank you for taking the time to produce this video. I found the information interesting and helpful.
Both did well. The two main issues here are recoil and capacity. Some people think the 45 ACP kicks too much so they prefer the 9 mm. Some prefer the higher capacity of the 9 mm vs the 45 ACP. So it boils down to personal preference between the two kinds of ammo tested.
I think my 45s 1911s are tame. Perhaps I'd feel different with a 3.8" Polymer frame though.
@@hoffpbass yes. a full sized all steel 1911 shoots very pleasant. Just as soft shooting or maybe even softer shooting than a 9mm imo. But a .45 caliber glock or other lightweight polymer pistol is a totally different animal lol. Way more felt recoil. It's not more than the average grown man could handle though. But being able to "handle" the recoil is one thing. How quick your follow up shots are is another thing. And the average person is going to get much quicker follow up shots with a 9mm vs a .45. So yeah, the .45 is a great caliber. With comparable loads, it will do more damage. But with modern ammo, the 9mm is good enough and you get quicker follow up shots, more capacity, a lot more variety of guns to choose from, and the ammo is quite a bit cheaper as well. That's why most people choose 9mm. I don't think there's too many people that think .45 sucks though or isnt an effective caliber. If they do, then they know absolutely nothing about firearms.
I have found from shooting my Glock 41 5.3" and Glock 36 3.7" that I used to have, is that 9mm and .45 ACP are near identical for recoil. It's only when .45 ACP+P enters the chat does the recoil seem to really spike, no pun intended, with .45 caliber.
@@GunSamyep, and Mr. Browning designed the 1911 to use 200 grain rounds. The 200 gr gold dots are really good as is the lighter 185gr Barnes, and hst = yes!! And there’s always the whole 2world wars argument. Train and practice with whatever you’re comfortable with and become proficient with it. Great video!
@@JohnLee-jk5ew Two world wars, Korea, and for me, Vietnam. That's where I feel in love with the 45 acp, both in my issued 1911 and my"miracle" M3 grease gun.
Just discovered your computer channel...old guy here, you make useful presentations, not entertainment stuff.
9 x 19 or .45 ACP ? I bought one of each back in AD 1989, a SIG-Sauer P228, and a P220. First semi-auto sidearms I ever shot. Can't say anything negative about the guns themselves, or the cartridges themselves.
That said, revolvers are my choice in sidearms, however, under certain circumstances, a semi-auto does offer advantages.
Shoot what you shoot best with, it ain't so much the size of the hole, it's that the hole is where it is.
Thanks again Sam, great work.
If you are comparing something like a 9mm 124gr. or 147gr. Federal HST especially +P or something better out of a long barrel vs. some cheap 45 ACP ball ammo, then yes you're going to get better results with the 9mm, but in any fair comparison using the same brand and model ammunition and same length barrel, the 45 ACP is going to blow the 9mm out of the water every time as far as ballistics go.
This is my day. Zuck on Rogan, Buffman does a Rock Compact review and GunSam testing God's caliber.
The one guy on Fox a few days ago talking about Zuckerberg was like "we all love the story of a repentant sinner, but it would be nice if he did this before being caught".
Thanks Sam good stuff as always
It’s simple. If you need more rounds get 9mm. If you are accurate and don’t need more ammo, go with 45.
I live in the hood. I need as much capacity as possible because these kids break in with multiple people.
Or carry a spare mag with your 45 and have the best of both worlds.
@@66smithra I have about 5 or 6 mags on my 1911 belt. BUT HEY, I'm in my 70's and I wear tri-focals ;}>
"A little more damage'' for something that's like 30% (or more) larger in diameter is a pretty big understatement, imo
I wish there was a consistant uniform method for measuring the crush cavity of a hollow point. Ballistics gel isn't designed to do it and eyeballing isn't scientific.
Something like soap used as a medium to shoot in to. Then squirt a resin into the cavity left by the hollow point. The resin dries and is removed and then the volume of the resin could be measured.
@@timrobinson6573 Yeah, I agree. It's frustrating to me, as a trained lab scientist, to see how much weight is given to the 'wound channels' in ballistics gel when that's not the design or purpose of the test. It's only meant to show two things: 1) ideal expansion and 2) relative (key word, not absolute) penetration. That's it. Any other conclusions based on the gel are not really valid.
This is exacerbated by the fact gel testing (and the myriad erroneous conclusions based on those tests) has incentivized ammo mfgs to create ammunition that performs well *to the test* as opposed to performing well in real-world use.
@@n0tthemessiahYep. Well said: developing the load to the test, instead of the testing following from real world results. It's not as empirical as people would like to think.
Back in the day they used to shoot into animals that were analagous to human body structure. I think that made a lot more sense. Barring that, things such as Paul Harrel's Meat Target have great utility.
And we also had actual empirical models from guys such as Throniley, where he developed his index. Much can be extracted from his observations. Level 45 is for antelope, 50 is marked for mule deer and such like:
9×19 115 gr. FMJ would come in at ~34, whereas 45 ACP 230 grain would sit at ~ 53.
The gel results can often reflect these sort of empirical models' predictions much more than purely theoretical models (e.g. ft./lbs. of energy) do.
One of the big flaws though, as you pointed out, is the gel media itself started being looked at (at least by the buying public) as a way to assess tissue damage. When we couple that with the physical fact that terminal velocity results in significant changes in bullet gel "tissue damage," the theoretical models assume greater weight over the empirical models.
In other words, the theoretical models start being treated more and more as empirical, because the gel is empirically observed. But the gel tests are themselves designed to evaluate on the theoretical modeling basis. So a theoretical model has become viewed now as empiricism, which is largely why everyone runs around talking ft./lbs. instead of meplat size, cutting edges, momentum, etc.
61% more surface area(.451v.355) and 2x the mass of "general" projectiles(230v115). If all the differences are added, 9 has greater capacity in similar sized platforms so it gets ahead in the zombie apocalypse. I have no issue with anyone wishing to protect themselves with either, and in the zombie apocalypse I will likely have both and a few others as well.😉
Really enjoyed ya'lls little side convo here. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks gentlemen.
Excellent test. I will still stay with 124 +P HST in my 9 and 230 Gold Dot +P in my 45. After these results I'm convinced the Punch is acceptable if i couldn't get my primary loads. I like your hair style.
9mm is a good back up. 40,45,10mm will be a lot better option for a serious situation. The gel is a great test but many people think it’s a 1 to 1 to real life…they’re extremely wrong!
Nice fresh hair cut you got sir 🫡looking good
Always bringing awesome content! Ty sir!
Wonderful test, they both did really well for a more budget loading. The 45 ACP wins the day. It has more energy, bigger expansion and a lot more momentum. You can see that by how much the steel target moves.
Your videos are onpoint as usual!
The 9mm used to perform poorly because of the FMJ bullets, and 45ACP worked in spite of those bullets just by making a bigger hole. With modern bullet designs, which are light years ahead of 50 years ago, it's all about energy and a hot 9 is about the same as a 45 and the terminal effect is very similar. So in modern times they are very similar although of course a 9 usually has a bigger magazine, and that can be a factor in some circumstances. The 45 delivers a bit more energy, but in real terms I can't see that mattering a lot. What happens when a bullet hits a human target depends a lot on that human and their attitude at that instant.
Me? I am 82 years old and have small hands, so my 1911 is easier for me to control and hit fast with, so I prefer it but that's for range work.
Were it permitted to carry a gun in my country (NZ) I'd probably end up with something like a Glock 19... lighter to carry and plenty of grunt in a pinch should the excrement contact the rotary atmospheric turbulator. Still love "old slabsides" though... but then Glock make a 45 too..... How fortunate we are to have so much choice... 🙂
GS. Another good and interesting video. Thanks again for sharing.
Hey Sam i ran across a guy on youtube called "integrative preparedness" he is a retired cop he did a excellent video about why people shouldn't carry a 9mm now me personally i have no problem with what people carry. But some of his points were hard to ignore ...... excellent comparison tho
My Ruger American 45 ACP duty pro is a very soft recoil 45 and not only was it designed for +P but sustained +P required by law enforcement as their part in the building the pistol, it was a attempt by Ruger to get military and law enforcement contracts and it's one of those good pistols hidden in plain sight, it's big and has weight and pro model means no frame mounted safety so similar to a Glock with trigger shoe and safety plunger like a Glock, very safe with the proper holster, strong belt and gun handling etiquette
I have various calibers (9mm, 40, 357 mag, 357 sig, 10mm, and 45) and each have their own special virtues. In my opinion a 9mm is good enough for me and I like the extra capacity it usually has over most of my other calibers, but a 45 is good too, as long as you know it’s limitations (mostly range and drop). But both are adequate for self defense. It boils down to which one you prefer or shoot well.
My studies of ballistics has lead me to the answer, that a 9mm can be as good as other cartridges, as long as it's about a 5" barrel and it's a hot +P or +P+. I know that's pretty specific, but those are my findings. The energy numbers, energy dump, low penetration that all have similarities in over 90 percentile one shot stop cartridges, are only obtained with a 5" +/- barrel and hotter +P or +P+ ammo, typically 115-124 gr JHP bullets.
My 45 load is a 200 grain swc cast and coated at around 1000 fps+ it is a great all around load. works on critters and sodas and rattlers and makes nice paper punch holes and being a 'target' buillet it shoots like.... well... a target round.
Punch is pretty impressive.
Top quality stuff. Thanks again!
great video Sam
Great video. Agree 100% with your commentary in the last 5 minutes or so of the video. Don’t get hung up on capacity.
both calibers you tested equally effective. my Taurus pt845 45acp, 12in magazine,.1 in barrel, my finish business loads cronygraphed .255 gr gt bullets with no pressure signs 950fps, 511ft/lb energy using 450smc load data . expansion 7/8 in, retaining weight 246gr. works flawlessly and accurately. if I remember correctly I've loaded it 970 fps out of the Taurus 45acp and hi point 45acp with no issues with either one. I would load equal to buffalo bore 45super 255gr gc - hcswc at 1070fps but it's deadly accurate at 18yds at 937-950 fps. I don't shoot it much just self defense and hunting. my outher loads standard and + p 45acp. this was another wonderful video as always. papa wishing you well 😊
As a Fudd it makes me sad that my lifetime of seeking knowledge is being dismissed, even mocked, by the younger generation!
They do it because the marketing and sales departments of the gun and ammo companies promote it.
Rejoice in the knowledge that if they live long enough, they too will experience this phenomenon. Hahahaha....
Youth is wasted on the young.
Tbh, I think the term “fudd” has been floated out in the online space as a way to divide and conquer among the gun culture. As much as this sound’s conspiratorial, I believe it to be correct.
I don’t know anyone, aside from the online world, that uses the term fudd in a non ironic way. Us young gun guys in real life love us some big bore revolvers and lever guns, and we tend to appreciate the knowledge and wisdom of the older generations.
When you start to realize that the snarky comments about 9mm being the best are actually bots, that is when your mind will be blown.
I have felt the same way but I am too old to to lose what little sleep I actually get over it. History will judge them as as it judges us all.
Yo!
Been wondering what happened to u?😊
All i watch is gun stuff on UA-cam just about,but i dont get notifications or even suggestions for gun stuff!
Makes me so mad!
😡😡
Ive carried 9mm and 45acp when i was younger and felt like both had there pros and cons.
Something about carrying that 45acp just makes you walk different 😊
So between those 2 i always went 45acp when i could..lol
I like the capacity and velocity on 9s..though
At my age now though,
I'm still on 38special/357mag now days !
Looked at some 327..but in the end i decided to go 357 mainly cause i want a companion lever action rifle!
Got a 6.5in rough rider 22lr for xmas!😊
What a fun gun to shoot!😊💯💯
Now that i kno UA-cam isnt notifying me ill look manually 😊
Great vid sir!
Thnk u😊😊
💯🫡🤘☮️
People are sheep. They heard it on the internet, so it must be true.
9mm is the lowest effectively viable self defense round. Easy for most people to handle and has a good size/form factor.That’s it.
Facts! Real world situations the 9mm struggles
@@Grizzlyman420In real world situations, All pistol rounds struggle
@@timg7627 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
@@timg7627 But some less so than others…the 9mm
struggles more than the .45.
@@grantorino2009 ok, whatever you gotta tell yourself
I can rapid fire a 9 without muzzle climb but have to slow down a little with a 45. That tells me there's some more oomph in there
The funny thing too for the mag capacity argument is what I've always seen is 9mm guys will present a glock 17 (17rd mags) at minimum as their base line. However when you ask them what they themselves carry it's usually something like a Glock 43x or P365XL (10-12rd capacity for both). So they're already below where they would be for any other caliber, and of course a smaller 40 or 45 typically holds about 1-2 less rounds on average. They will insist this will make or break a gunfight anyways
Thanks again for another great objective review.
.45ACP is a very tame round in my experience. Low velocity, high weight cartridges give a lot of push but very little snap, so it recoils up higher, but hurts a lot less. There are many reasons it was used for such a long period of time, chief among them was terminal effect and shootability.
That being said I've shot many automatics both .45ACP and 9mm and never felt I had much need for either an automatic or a plastic gun, let alone a plastic automatic. I'll stick with my steel .38 revolvers, they have sufficient terminal effect, sufficient capacity, ammunition is not too expensive (yet) and the cartridge is imminently reloadable.
Where I live, the state police carried G21s with 230 grain Bonded Golden Saber for years. Had one successful gunfight after another with the combo. Felons went down quickly. A few years ago, they switched to Winchester Ranger T 124+P 9mm. Since the switch, almost all of their 9mm gunfights have been multi-round engagements with disappointing results.
I'm curious, are those stats actually compiled somewhere?
what state
The police are the ones that came up with " dump the mag " After switching back to the 9mm ( That's in real world )
Nice test results Sam! 👏♠️🎩🎯🇺🇸🏹
FINE Shooting! I've tested 9mm punch Gun Sam's OG Bologna test 3.2" & "Modern Meat Target" 3.3" & 5" so can verify in different protocols! Upcoming .38 vs .40 punch IN SNUBS in Water Jugs Scientifically Correlated to Organic Gel! Sam you are going to like 3 of the NEW Defensive Rounds in Cool Calibers Federal is launching at Shot Show! They liked your .32 HSD video! No promises but I may have dropped your info.....
Hi Sam, neither one is a bad choice from what I see. However, if you discount one flyer to the left, your group at 75 yards with the 45 is absolutely remarkable, you even doubled a hit, moving the rear sight to the left just a little bit would make for a 5" centered group, which is rifle like accuracy.
LOL at the headshot reaction
Late to the party but thanks for sharing as always Gun Sam!👍🙏❤💯
Welcome to the party, pal - John McClain
I see this a lot. The test is the transfer of energy in flesh.
Great stuff bud.
Stay warm Sam and keep sticking up for the Fudds! We catch enough hate from the Glock Bois.
Side note, have you had any time with the new Rossi RP63?
No, I never had one. My first revolver though was a Rossi 462 if I recall the name right. Identical revolver but with a 2" barrel. Seemed nice at the time when I had it 16 years ago.
I'm a hybrid guy. I carry a G23 with 180 grain HSTs. Seriously, either of these rounds would do the job but you have to admit the 45 does make a bigger hole...
In my opinion, you have it right. I personally do not use .45 ACP for defense, but I do use .40 S&W, so anytime I argue for the .45 ACP, I am basically arguing for the .40 S&W as well. The .40 S&W has all the attributes with basically every bullet weight that when gel tested, show the same attributes with all the cartridges that are over 90% one shot stop.
Those attributes are being 400 ft lbs energy or higher, being 155 gr+ and stopping within 14" of organic gel. In my testing, with the MDF in place I get about the same penetration as organic gel, but the rounds known to be over 90% OSS always open up big before they go through the MDF. Most 9mm rounds don't do this, a couple do, a couple .45 ACP rounds do too but not all....but the .357 Mag and .40 S&W do that instant expansion thing and penetrate less than 14", and .40 S&W is unique in that several loads and bullet weights do that.
With .357 Mag it's only the 125 gr SJHP that does, with 9mm it's only the 9BPLE that does, with .45 ACP its only the Hydrashok that does, but almost every .40 S&W does which makes it legitimately the best caliber I have tested overall.
@@GunSam Boom. Thanks!
I have pistols in 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp because they are all proven to be effective. Anyone who dismisses .45acp as "fudd" and no longer relevant is talking out of their butt. It consistently outperforms 9mm. Thats always dismissed because 9mm comes close according to the FBI tests but better performance is still better performance. The advantage of 9mm is capacity. The recoil difference really only matters if you're shooting competition on the clock, you would have to be one experienced gunfighter to notice recoil during the stress of a defensive shooting. My personal carry gun is 9mm because I like the additional capacity but I would carry a .45acp without a second thought. I do carry the .45acp when I can carry a larger gun.
I agree with everything you said here.
A larger caliber can always become a smaller caliber, not vice versa. I have been carrying a 9 BHP for decades and took much grief from those saying if it doesn’t start with a 4 you ain’t serious. When I showed them BB at 500 ftlbs they didn’t believe me. Now, all of those people swear by the 9. But, round for round there is little doubt which one is better if you can shoot it . A 45 Super and 45 SMC can be fired in the same pistol in a few minutes to change to heavier springs or some are fine as is if additional power is needed.
Great comparison video. 👍👍
I like 40, so I am grampa Fudd, according to the 9'ers. I get the same size pistol as a 9MM with a couple less rounds. I kinda like 40 over 45 too. To carry a 45, I basically have to go to an officer's 1911 and get 7+1. The Punch are acceptable to good. Probably don't see it worth saving a few bucks over HST though.
The .40 S&W is really the best cartridge out there, overall. What you see with stopping power accounts, is that whenever a round his 400 ft lbs energy, then stops within 14" of gel while expanding before hitting the MDF, those rounds in real recoded data are all well over 90% one shot stop. There's many calibers that do this but they usually only have one load that does this like the .357 Mag 125 gr SJHP for example, but 158 gr goes deeper, and thus shown closer to the 80 percentile stopping power. The .40 S&W, basically every normal bullet weight from 155 to 180 gr has loads that will expand right away and stop within 14" of gel. Out of all the random guns and ammo out there, the statistics would show that a person with a .40 S&W with most ammo will be more protected than any other random caliber.
In your long slides you should do some 147 testings for the 9 mm I use HSTs in my 3.7-in CZ and they seem fabulous. It would cool to be a series out of lightweight medium weight and heavyweights.
Side note you should get a 3.8 in 10 mm for testing, The Springfield XDE is extraordinary and they discontinued the rest and it's not that expensive, not get a Glock 29. Not telling you what to get but that Springfield is reliable and you have multi barrel lengths and other calibers.
sure wish I had an area like yours to have fun.
I feel like the 45 ACP "slaps" harder than 9mm, when I'm shooting bowling pins or steel targets. It would seem that that "slap" would translate to bigger shock if hitting a human?
It might. Depends on the load, but generally that 'slap' is translated in the human body to more of a consistent straight line penetration. It won't slap a person harder, but it will consistently go deeper through bones than 9mm, which I guess could slap the life and fight out of someone better.
Iv been considering buying my first 45acp lately. All the sexy pistols seem to be 45acp.
God's Caliber has no equals 🔥
Very fair test, thank you great job!
Ranger T series for 45 is the way to go. Full inch of expansion
9 mm might expand, but 45 never shrinks.
I'm team 45 acp but I have nothing bad to say about 9 mm and the people who use it🤞😂!
If your resources permit it, please do a 9mm vs 45 ACP test but use the lowest cost ammunition you can find from each caliber. To me, this is especially valuable based on the shortages a few years ago. Thank you for your consideration.
Well said.
I like Punch. I have quite a bit of it in a handful of calibers. Whenever I see it on sale I buy. I got some at Academy a while back for I think like $12 a box. Midway has sales often enough and when they do I always buy some. I bought a bunch of other random loads that were on sale there a while back from Underwood and another brand having a hard time remembering the brand but I think the company is more known for match stuff but what I got was 9mm that had bonded bullets not sure what bullets they are but its 124 grain bonded. Atomic I think is the brand. I carry an M&P 45 Shield loaded with 230 grain +P HST. I carry some other stuff too but that has been the main pistol I have carried the last 4-5 years. Before that for years I mostly carried my Glock 27 with HST too not sure if it was 180 grain or not I have loaded in that and the spare mag I always carried has some of that Barnes TacXPD or whatever they call their copper loads. Academy had that Barnes stuff on clearance for I think $8 per box quite a while back and I think I bought 10 boxes of it. Never know what you are going to find on clearance in there bought a lot of ammo there and Field and Stream that was randomly on clearance.
Double Tap, and Remington Make great .45 ACP loads. Lots of other companies are putting out weak .45 acp loads just to make the 9 Mighty Mite Soy boys feel better about their choice. But, I digress.
In all the ballistics tests I've seen between 9mm and .45 I've noticed it's more common for .45 auto hollowpoints to not expand reliably even using the same brands in comparison, so you have to be a lot more careful in choosing carry ammo or at least are more limited with your options at local stores. I've honestly gone out of my way to try and research and see that .45 is better than 9mm and I'm just not really convinced, like you said even if .45 acp is better in terms of damage to the target it's only a little better. And man sometimes it really is only A LITTLE better at best.
The thing about the capacity argument is true, I personally can't think I would ever be in a place where a little .38 revolver or .380 semi auto handgun wouldn't feel like enough gun unless I were in bear country. So yeah that's not really a big deal to me, the capacity difference between 9mm and .45, but 9mm does have the edge there. Ultimately I think Georg Luger beat John Browning with this one, but that's not to say the .45 is bad. I have several .45s, really enjoy my USP, not getting rid of them, but imo 9mm is better but for the average person it doesn't really matter beyond the shooter's comfort with the round.
Gun sam.my colt 1911.is a heavy gun. And even with plus p ammo the recoil is very manageable. I love my 1911s. .the 1911 is a hard gun to concealed carry😊
In a ‘74 gunfight I ran out of ammo after firing 12 rounds through my issued Colt Detective Spl. My partner was hit in the chest (no vest then) w/one round from the bad guy’s .45 Long Colt and said it felt like being slammed w/a telephone pole. Given that experience, as well as these two calibers performance in your test, I’d go w/the 9MM b/c you can carry more ammo in each mag. Good video Sam.
Thanks for all your perspectives old cop, cartridge loops or dump punches because they looked better in uniform picks then the speedloaders needed until when? Have you seen all of "DanTheWolfman's Cold Detective" vids, I think you will get excited when I unveil the one of a kind Colt Black Beauty soon!
Okay, humor me, I'm in my 70's and I haven't a clue what a 'FUDD' is with the one exception of an Elmer Fudd. And I do have an old 1911 that works just fine and a small carbine that is chambered for the 45 acp, that's it. I was first introduced to the 45 acp,(1911) when I was in the army. Since it wasn't broke, it worked very well, I've had a 45 ever since then,(1968) with no complaints other than the ammo sure has gone up in price. So, I guess I'm an 'old fudd'. I can live with that...
Elmer Fudd is the inspiration. He hunts with a shotgun. Fudds are basically people who are totally fine with government overreaching gun laws as long as it does not effect their ability to hunt. Like if I owned a shotgun and I hunt, and the government bans all AR-15s, makes pistol magazine capacity limits and whatnot and I was like "Don't matter to me, I can still hunt". A Fudd doesn't look at the big picture of freedoms. There's some crossover definition to people who carry 'outdated' firearms as well. Like if I think a 5 shot revolver or 1911 is "all you need" the way a shotgun is "all you need", well maybe i'm a Fudd and somehow against high capacity 9mm pistols or other modern 2A tools. So if I like .45 ACP - I might be saying all you really need is a 1911.
@@GunSam Thank you for clearing that up for me. I guess I'm a "multi Fudd" as I have a small, but varied collection in both hand guns and long guns. And I even own several shotguns-weally I do ;}>
Great Video 😁☕👍
Bounce back in the gel probably comes from the bullet stopping before the cavity collapses thus allowing the bullet to bounce back.
Every time I see it the bullet is expanded over .65" for some reason. Even if it's like .62" it won't bounce back much. It's weird.
@@GunSam I think it's the suction from the bigger hole you are right
Another video, that confirmed my opinion: These pistol calibres are pretty close. The differences between good and bad ammo within the same calibre are bigger than the differences between 9 mm, .40 and .45.
that 45. thru the barrier looks WICKED
It’s an either/or for me, and HST is my ammo choice. I’ve always said I’ll never sell my 19 or my 21. My buddy calls me a Glocktard and I wear the comment with a smile. I like the results I see with Punch ammo. It will be interesting to see when you post the HST video comparison. I switched from Gold Dots to HST watching TN9’s videos. Could yours be videos that make switch from HST? We shall see! Keep up the good work.
I posted the HST video a week ago even though I filmed this one first.
@ oops. I’ll show myself out. 😊
Great vid. Glad you talked about the pistol weights. How is the weight distribution, is one more 'muzzle heavy'?
I guess I never noticed one having more muzzle weight.
Malfunction looked like a limp wrist.
Happens with most when going for utmost accuracy - we tend to remove pressure from the gun and not provide the minimum resistance needed for proper cycling.
Interesting video
lol. Yeah, sure. It's cool you know how to repeat terms, just know what you are talking about when you use them please.
.45 because there isn't an 11mm.
.45 is 11.5 mm
What was significant was that the .45 bullet hit lower, which confirms the better accuracy of the 9mm and the greater stopping power of the .45 ACP.
Thanks for your tests.
I would like to see HST in three inch barrels.
9mm vs. 45 ACP, does that every get old? Both have advantages and disadvantages. Back in the early days of JHP semi-auto loads, the 45 ACP was usually inconsistent with expansion, 9mm was consistent with 115 grain bullets at +P and +P+ pressure. Modern hollow point bullets are a lot better and don't need 1200 fps to expand, but still tend to better when you get above 900 fps. Very nice test.
Thanks. It never gets old because the rage of the 9mm fanboy is funny. To be clear, I am a fanboy of everything, all are pretty good, but these guys that came out of nowhere challenging me to a debate, where they say 9mm is better than every caliber and I am wrong to disagree, and the rage they have when 9mm tends to not do better, often do worse than everything else, I find that funny so to me it never gets old.
To the more mentally stable people, it also never gets old because it's just cool to see where we came from as people, how at one point 100 years ago we thought 230 gr and dropping a horse was important, but now days we can squeeze a lot from the little 9mm and it works fine too, if you like ballistics, you like ballistics.
I’m 73 and own 45s but I carry a CZ 75 Compact because of capacity advantage of 9mm
Funny how people tell you that 9mm ammo has improved and is as good as bigger rounds. And the bigger rounds haven’t improved their performance, too???
If you ask me, yes they have improved with .45 ACP. If you ask a 9mm fanboy, no - 9mm is now all +P+ super high tech and 4,000 FPS, computer controlled expansion, new pistol designs 25+1 but .45 ACP only comes in 3 shot pistols and the ammo is all ball ammo at 400 FPS.