I really like how chill and scientific you guys can be about sensitive issues. I have friends that can easily get upset and that's made me afraid of even imagining conversations where the non-oppressed can be shown sympathy. The fact that you said gay people can experience a privilege of not being afraid of being feminine made me find a jealousy I didn't know I had. I'm white, straight and grew up a 'gifted kid', so risking being perceived as any less than perfect or confident can make me anxious and I think I need to dare to be dumb, cringe, or wrong in order to let go of that. And in trying to be perceived as perfect even by myself, it's taken me hearing two gay men talk about their internalized homophobia to see my own. Keep doing what you're doing guys!
I don’t Not want to be gay, I’ve always loved being gay but now that I’m an adult and I’m uncovering all of my traumas (especially sexual trauma 🥲) And I’m trying to navigate my first long term (6 year) relationship I’ve had thoughts of like how nice and comfortable and easy being straight would be.
Honestly, I don't know if everyone has this because no one is born being naturally homophobic. It's conditioning (I think that's what you're trying to say, but I am just affirming). I was raised in a conservative home and though I was accepted I was unable to be around the internalized homophobia of my family who struggled with men who cried, had emotions, wore feminine clothing or make up, ect.. If someone can't healthily be themselves, they are going to unfortunately fall into this idealized masculinity which leads men to feel incredibly depressed. Loved this video!~
I would love to know a bit more about your guys thoughts regarding some gay men not being attracted to feminine men. While there is definitely some underlying homophobia regarding certain people’s attitudes, it seems like people in general find certain things attractive compared to others. Some men may be turned off by a higher voice / lack of body hair / etc. Similarly, some gay men may get turned off by significant body hair / muscles / etc. The internalized homophobia argument fits well with the former group who aren’t as attracted to “feminine” traits, but it doesn’t seem to make sense with the latter. Feminine appearing men are oftentimes not viewed as “attractive” by society on the whole, and yet this subset of men finds them attractive regardless. Do you think this points to more behind attraction to masculine/feminine traits besides internalized homophobia, or believe that its truly a catch all?
Whilst they may be loosely connected I think for the most part it's just people's tastes/preferences. I mean take straight guys, some like small girls others big. The same goes with breast size etc etc.
I think there’s part conditioning of attraction that is internalised homophobia/misogyny etc.. I used 2 only b attracted 2 old beefcake bears very young (still am). Then it got very narrowly conventionally attractive hyper mascs when I got insecure with my masculinity & felt inferior. But now that I matured & got happier, I find overtly gay/feminine energies attractive. It’s part of my personal growth 2 find a broader or different range of men attractive & masculine. There’s a lot of things that influence attraction. A lot of it is rooted in various prejudices since ofc a lot of standards 4 attractiveness is influenced by prejudice. Ur attraction can also b influenced by 2ndary thoughts/mindsets.
Having intense internalised homophobia is sooo damaging when you're naturally more feminine. For me coming out as nonbinary was a 2-3 year process of deconstructing why I hated seeing the fem parts of myself, esp. contrast to me trying to be masculine (I'm not). Apart from gender dysphoria from physical features there is so much that goes into expression and how you form relationships. All of this is missing in the straight male circles I grew up in. Thanks for having this discussion cuz it's really desperately needed to spread this message imo
I think the only reason i feel sometimes like i wish i was straight is because i feel like my life would be so much easier and i feel like I didn’t have a choice to take the harder route in life, so the fact its not a choice i ever made is a bit annoying
What are the lyrics to the intro jingle? 🎼 “Controversial subjects where the facts can be tense, but we are [a sub science?!?!] to make things make sense.” 🎵 WTF is “sub science” or what are the lyrics that sound like “sub science”?
Though often not in the same way, patriarchy entrenches a fear of emasculation (or smth similar 2 it) in every1. It’s existed 4ever & it makes me wonder if there’s smth innate in human nature that brings this out or if we can work through it. Patriarchy is our 1st generational trauma.
@@shawnbay2211 not the same but quite similar i think, since it comes from like the programming of growing up male and fear of being rejected by everyone around you when you were instilled since a young age to be traditionally masculine to be loved
Actually. men do take risks in ways to assert their masculinity - you know those acts that are "manly". Anyway, of course, it's more straight guys that do this, but non-straight men can also participate in this. There are gender scholars who comment on this; I believe one of the ones you grabbed one of the studies from, Raewyn Connell... but I could be mistaken. There's too many scholars to keep count of when gender is not my main area of study, more like a second area or tertiary area of study for me.
It's in most straight males biology to be competitive with other males and to assert their dominance and masculinity, so I don't think it's always fair to beat straight men up over something that's natural by their nature. In virtually every mammalian species there is male-male competition. Males tend to engage in more overt and aggressive forms of competition than females, but both sexes desire access to material and cultural goods associated with reproductive fitness. Because women pay far greater reproductive costs by making the wrong choice, women have been designed by evolution to be more cautious and choosier than men in mate selection. Hence the “coy” female, and the sexually aggressive male, in every human society ever found (as well as in most other mammalian species). Mate choice is generally exercised by females and based upon male display traits, even in cases in which males provide no resources. women, on average, are more selective about their sexual partners, preferring those who possess status and resources that will benefit them and their future offspring. Back in the day, if these resources were of poor quality or inconsistent, this would threaten a woman’s survival and the survival of her children. Being less choosy about sexual partners could also result in raising a child without the help of the father, who could otherwise provide material resources in addition to emotional support and physical protection. In response, men have evolved to be highly competitive in order to be attractive to the choosiest (and, therefore, highest value) sexual partners. Eggs are more costly to produce produce than sperm; consequently, women release one egg a month while men produce several hundred million sperm a day. Women are very selective about who gets to fertilize that egg, and men need to be competitive in order to get access to this precious resource. Gay men brains are wired differently from straight men's which makes them less competitive and aggressive on average because they have cross sex shifts in certain areas of the brain that are responsible for these types of things...meaning they have similarities in their brains to straight women and lesbians have similarities to straight men. I think we have to take this is to account sometimes when comparing gay and straight men because their brains are wired differently.
@@JJ_TheGreat Thanks, although it's not really me saying it, it's scientists and evolutionary biologists/psychologists. .That's why when I hear modern feminists complaining about "toxic masculinity" I think to myself the lady doth protest too much. Men’s behavior is, to some extent, the result of female sexual preferences. If women didn’t want to mate with masculine men, these traits would have been removed from the gene pool long ago. The mate preferences of one sex will determine the characteristics that are passed on in the other sex. An organism exists to propagate its genetic material, and this is the sole “meaning” of its existence. Successful mating consists of attaining a partner with good genes so that one’s offspring will survive and be successful at passing on their lineage. “Toxic masculinity” is the result of women’s sexual preferences over thousands of generations. As I already said women, on average, are more selective about their sexual partners, preferring those who possess status and resources that will benefit them and their future offspring. A woman usually looks for signs of commitment and that a man has the means to provide for her. and practical needs to also be met. Studies have shown that for women who are successful, they place an even greater emphasis on their partner’s generosity and financial success. This explains why some men will purchase expensive toys, like flashy watches and cars, as a way of signaling status to potential partners. Another large scale study conducted in different countries found that women prefer men who exhibit benevolent sexism over those who do not, despite also finding these behaviors undermining and patronizing. Benevolent sexism consists of chivalrous behavior, such as opening doors and paying for dates, and positive attitudes about women that reinforce the belief that women are less competent, relegating them to traditional gender roles. (This is in contrast to hostile sexism, which involves overtly misogynistic views.) Regardless of whether women endorsed high or low levels of feminist beliefs, they interpreted signs of benevolent sexism as signals that a man is willing to invest in them through an ability to provide, protect, and commit to them. The positives associated with this behavior outweighed the negatives. From a brief survey of my straight male friends, the more progressive and feminist a woman proclaims she is, the more she prefers dominant, masculine men.
“Working out means having internalized homophobia?” I thought that the reason for working out was to live a healthier lifestyle, at least that’s what I do it for.
I really like how chill and scientific you guys can be about sensitive issues. I have friends that can easily get upset and that's made me afraid of even imagining conversations where the non-oppressed can be shown sympathy. The fact that you said gay people can experience a privilege of not being afraid of being feminine made me find a jealousy I didn't know I had. I'm white, straight and grew up a 'gifted kid', so risking being perceived as any less than perfect or confident can make me anxious and I think I need to dare to be dumb, cringe, or wrong in order to let go of that.
And in trying to be perceived as perfect even by myself, it's taken me hearing two gay men talk about their internalized homophobia to see my own. Keep doing what you're doing guys!
I don’t Not want to be gay, I’ve always loved being gay but now that I’m an adult and I’m uncovering all of my traumas (especially sexual trauma 🥲) And I’m trying to navigate my first long term (6 year) relationship I’ve had thoughts of like how nice and comfortable and easy being straight would be.
Amazing conversation. Greetings from Argentina
Honestly, I don't know if everyone has this because no one is born being naturally homophobic. It's conditioning (I think that's what you're trying to say, but I am just affirming). I was raised in a conservative home and though I was accepted I was unable to be around the internalized homophobia of my family who struggled with men who cried, had emotions, wore feminine clothing or make up, ect.. If someone can't healthily be themselves, they are going to unfortunately fall into this idealized masculinity which leads men to feel incredibly depressed. Loved this video!~
They say the root of homophobia is misplaced misogyny and xenophobia which of course finds its osmosis in: shame.
I would love to know a bit more about your guys thoughts regarding some gay men not being attracted to feminine men. While there is definitely some underlying homophobia regarding certain people’s attitudes, it seems like people in general find certain things attractive compared to others. Some men may be turned off by a higher voice / lack of body hair / etc. Similarly, some gay men may get turned off by significant body hair / muscles / etc. The internalized homophobia argument fits well with the former group who aren’t as attracted to “feminine” traits, but it doesn’t seem to make sense with the latter. Feminine appearing men are oftentimes not viewed as “attractive” by society on the whole, and yet this subset of men finds them attractive regardless. Do you think this points to more behind attraction to masculine/feminine traits besides internalized homophobia, or believe that its truly a catch all?
Whilst they may be loosely connected I think for the most part it's just people's tastes/preferences. I mean take straight guys, some like small girls others big. The same goes with breast size etc etc.
I think there’s part conditioning of attraction that is internalised homophobia/misogyny etc..
I used 2 only b attracted 2 old beefcake bears very young (still am). Then it got very narrowly conventionally attractive hyper mascs when I got insecure with my masculinity & felt inferior. But now that I matured & got happier, I find overtly gay/feminine energies attractive. It’s part of my personal growth 2 find a broader or different range of men attractive & masculine.
There’s a lot of things that influence attraction. A lot of it is rooted in various prejudices since ofc a lot of standards 4 attractiveness is influenced by prejudice. Ur attraction can also b influenced by 2ndary thoughts/mindsets.
Having intense internalised homophobia is sooo damaging when you're naturally more feminine. For me coming out as nonbinary was a 2-3 year process of deconstructing why I hated seeing the fem parts of myself, esp. contrast to me trying to be masculine (I'm not). Apart from gender dysphoria from physical features there is so much that goes into expression and how you form relationships. All of this is missing in the straight male circles I grew up in. Thanks for having this discussion cuz it's really desperately needed to spread this message imo
I think the only reason i feel sometimes like i wish i was straight is because i feel like my life would be so much easier and i feel like I didn’t have a choice to take the harder route in life, so the fact its not a choice i ever made is a bit annoying
I’m a bottom and I present pretty masculine, and I just want to say that I think being a bottom feels to me way more masculine than being a top.
Are you guys trying to give me a breakthrough here? I'm literally crying realising so many things about myself😭
@45:35 there's a really good short movie called "Rubber Dolphins" which includes an exploration of this subject
Love your beard!
What are the lyrics to the intro jingle? 🎼 “Controversial subjects where the facts can be tense, but we are [a sub science?!?!] to make things make sense.” 🎵
WTF is “sub science” or what are the lyrics that sound like “sub science”?
ASAP Science, it's their main channel name :)
DO NOT GET DREADS! 🤣
just wanna say transwomen experience this a lot as well from being raised male
Though often not in the same way, patriarchy entrenches a fear of emasculation (or smth similar 2 it) in every1. It’s existed 4ever & it makes me wonder if there’s smth innate in human nature that brings this out or if we can work through it. Patriarchy is our 1st generational trauma.
@@shawnbay2211 not the same but quite similar i think, since it comes from like the programming of growing up male and fear of being rejected by everyone around you when you were instilled since a young age to be traditionally masculine to be loved
Actually. men do take risks in ways to assert their masculinity - you know those acts that are "manly". Anyway, of course, it's more straight guys that do this, but non-straight men can also participate in this. There are gender scholars who comment on this; I believe one of the ones you grabbed one of the studies from, Raewyn Connell... but I could be mistaken. There's too many scholars to keep count of when gender is not my main area of study, more like a second area or tertiary area of study for me.
It's in most straight males biology to be competitive with other males and to assert their dominance and masculinity, so I don't think it's always fair to beat straight men up over something that's natural by their nature. In virtually every mammalian species there is male-male competition. Males tend to engage in more overt and aggressive forms of competition than females, but both sexes desire access to material and cultural goods associated with reproductive fitness. Because women pay far greater reproductive costs by making the wrong choice, women have been designed by evolution to be more cautious and choosier than men in mate selection. Hence the “coy” female, and the sexually aggressive male, in every human society ever found (as well as in most other mammalian species).
Mate choice is generally exercised by females and based upon male display traits, even in cases in which males provide no resources. women, on average, are more selective about their sexual partners, preferring those who possess status and resources that will benefit them and their future offspring. Back in the day, if these resources were of poor quality or inconsistent, this would threaten a woman’s survival and the survival of her children. Being less choosy about sexual partners could also result in raising a child without the help of the father, who could otherwise provide material resources in addition to emotional support and physical protection. In response, men have evolved to be highly competitive in order to be attractive to the choosiest (and, therefore, highest value) sexual partners. Eggs are more costly to produce produce than sperm; consequently, women release one egg a month while men produce several hundred million sperm a day. Women are very selective about who gets to fertilize that egg, and men need to be competitive in order to get access to this precious resource.
Gay men brains are wired differently from straight men's which makes them less competitive and aggressive on average because they have cross sex shifts in certain areas of the brain that are responsible for these types of things...meaning they have similarities in their brains to straight women and lesbians have similarities to straight men. I think we have to take this is to account sometimes when comparing gay and straight men because their brains are wired differently.
@@aliross2720100% agree with everything you just said!
@@JJ_TheGreat Thanks, although it's not really me saying it, it's scientists and evolutionary biologists/psychologists. .That's why when I hear modern feminists complaining about "toxic masculinity" I think to myself the lady doth protest too much. Men’s behavior is, to some extent, the result of female sexual preferences. If women didn’t want to mate with masculine men, these traits would have been removed from the gene pool long ago. The mate preferences of one sex will determine the characteristics that are passed on in the other sex. An organism exists to propagate its genetic material, and this is the sole “meaning” of its existence. Successful mating consists of attaining a partner with good genes so that one’s offspring will survive and be successful at passing on their lineage. “Toxic masculinity” is the result of women’s sexual preferences over thousands of generations.
As I already said women, on average, are more selective about their sexual partners, preferring those who possess status and resources that will benefit them and their future offspring. A woman usually looks for signs of commitment and that a man has the means to provide for her. and practical needs to also be met. Studies have shown that for women who are successful, they place an even greater emphasis on their partner’s generosity and financial success. This explains why some men will purchase expensive toys, like flashy watches and cars, as a way of signaling status to potential partners.
Another large scale study conducted in different countries found that women prefer men who exhibit benevolent sexism over those who do not, despite also finding these behaviors undermining and patronizing. Benevolent sexism consists of chivalrous behavior, such as opening doors and paying for dates, and positive attitudes about women that reinforce the belief that women are less competent, relegating them to traditional gender roles. (This is in contrast to hostile sexism, which involves overtly misogynistic views.) Regardless of whether women endorsed high or low levels of feminist beliefs, they interpreted signs of benevolent sexism as signals that a man is willing to invest in them through an ability to provide, protect, and commit to them. The positives associated with this behavior outweighed the negatives. From a brief survey of my straight male friends, the more progressive and feminist a woman proclaims she is, the more she prefers dominant, masculine men.
Awesome blue sweater
“Working out means having internalized homophobia?” I thought that the reason for working out was to live a healthier lifestyle, at least that’s what I do it for.
It's correlational. Correlation isn't causation.
Mitchell your jawline is so pretty
why am i smelling fire and brimstone 😈
What are you doing here?