I just hit Master for the first time ever. I never thought I could get this far as a Jungler or as a player ever. It's all thanks to you two blokes in OCE. Love being a BBCer.
This Season is very inflated and everybody is basically 200-400lp above their actual rank . S13 master is like Diamond 3 last season. No offense , I am inflated as well , but your rank doesn't matter in s13 . I play around diamond 1 and diamond 2 mmr and 90% of players were platinum last season and you can definetely tell from their gameplay . ( I used to be plat 2 last season) So yeah . S13 ranks are kinda a joke .
@@EvilHedgehogYT that's one way to look at it if you are if you are delusional . And it's not even an accomplishment. They are not getting better and achieving a higher rank . They are the same elo and skill , it's just that the visual color of the rank that changes . Inflation is only bad for the game cuz it devalues ranks , diamond now for example is literally low elo pisslow and it only increases people's ego cuz they think they are better at the game when they are not .
Even if its a shot in the dark, you should reach out to Dr.K. He has been working with average to pro level league players for quite some time now. I feel like a podcast where you could ask the hard hitting psyche oriented questions would be awesome. (Motivations, Models for Learning, Mindset). Even presenting to him your theories on soloq models for learning would help further enforce your beliefs and help build them stronger.
It was my understanding that Dr. K wasn't saying cognitive flexibility was an immutable characteristic just that it is not well taught or understood but i could be wrong. Keep up the good work guys!
Sean from mailbag here, thank you guys so much for diving into my question. I really appreciate the seal of approval 😁. I think one of the things that I hadn't thought about was the reason I was doing better in Support was the anxiety and that I was playing better without the pressure, I like that takeaway. I definitely feel like a weight has been taken off my shoulders and even the process of submitting the email last week was a bit of a cathartic release and played some mid blocks this weekend and I played free and lose and didn't think about anything besides being in the moment. It weirdly felt like I was playing League of Legends 2 in the sense that I could see so many things that I had just been so busy not focusing on because I was too busy worried about other people, the mental stack and the sheer concept of getting into the details feels unlocked somehow. I think a new Midlaner has been born in this process and after as you said I int away a few months I will take a look at joining the Mid Lane School. Thanks again guys!
Just stay confident and inquisitive. To me a player should always do just whatever is fun for them. I've swapped champions like 3 times this season because of boredom and frustration. It has certainly hurt my climb several times but I found that I wasn't getting the games in or my experience with the game was more toxic simply because I wasn't having fun anymore. When I swapped and kind of reset myself, I began to have fun and climb once again. At the end of the day we are playing a game and we are doing it for enjoyment. It's fun to challenge ourselves and if we are fresh and not god-like at this moment in time, it doesn't mean we can't get there later on. Stick to mute chat or mute-all if need be and play your game the way you want. You'll get much further along even passively by sticking to that gut feeling and just interacting with the game more in a positive mindset. If you're purely looking for short-term goals like gold for rewards the last week of the season, then you might consider sticking to what wins and having slightly less fun just for that reason. Otherwise just go the long ways to make it worth your time and enjoy it.
Something i'm surprised that no one brought up (though i guess its secondary in the end cause its correct that you really shouldn't care about other people's opinions at all on how well you do at the role, play for yourself and your own improvement/enjoyment etc) is that the way matchmaking works is that if you queue up for mid , its trying to put you with people who queued up for other roles. Not mid. I'm a jungle player for example, even if my mid does dogshit i don't want to have been mid instead, cause i play jungle, i wanna play MY role. I'm sure the vast majority of people are the same. So yeah, just a little thought i had coming at the anxiety from the other direction. In the end you gotta remember that thats what anxiety is, unreasonable fears that aren't really grounded in reality. Sometimes reminding yourself of the specifics of why they don't make much sense can help you get past them. Works that way for me atleast.
I started playing in S10, picked up jungle when I was in silver after 3-4 months of playing league. I was learning jungle through Olaf because I watched Nathan's S10 Olaf guide. Throughout the seasons I was switching champions here and there but most of the time I was maining/onetricking khazix. I wanted to learn different champions but I always gave up after few days/weeks. I lost motivation in S12 after dropping to platinum and I wasn't having much fun so I barely even played the game for the second half of the season. In preseason I wanted to change that and learn a different champion and that's when I started playing Lillia. At the start I was having more fun than when I started playing league in S10. After few days I wanted to give up AGAIN but I remembered what you said on the podcast about the learning journey when it comes to learning a new champion so I sticked with it and continued learning, getting better and having a LOTS OF FUN with this champion. It took me less than 2 months to hit diamond in S13 by onetricking lillia only. It was a huge moment for me since it was the first time I got Diamond without playing a single game of khazix and I was very proud of myself that I made it with this new champion and didn't give up! Now few days ago I got Master on EUW for the very first time! I don't think it would be possible without you guys... Thank you so much for the content you're the best!
25:50 You know this is an interesting discussion because I started the game in season 1 or even like as early as open beta. I have Judgement Kayle on multiple accounts because I made alts back then. I have accounts that are that old. Fat text wall ahead, but TL;DR - Old LoL was DESIGNED to be casual and "fun", so it's not surprising very old players are nostalgic of what it used to be if they were attracted to the old LoL. I for one have warmed up to LoL over it's more recent competitive years as opposed to it's old "for fun" design. ... What I want to say is that people might not remember it, but LoL was marketed as a CASUAL game back then! The way it tried to get people to play it instead of DotA 1 (the modded WC3 custom map DotA before it's sequel got created by Valve), was that it marketed the game as being more forgiving than some of DotA 1's hardcore mechanics. I still remember the general message being sent out by their marketing slogans back then. They had things like "no denying!" and "no gold loss on death!" The implication was that you don't have to experience all of these "bad" and "toxic" things opponents can do you to in DotA 1 if you come play our game, LoL! For some context, you can kill your ally creeps in DotA to deny enemy last hits and reduce the exp they receive by a % (idk how it is these days as I haven't played DotA 2 in years now). And to this day, you still lose unspent gold on death in DotA, and it scales as the game progresses (so you might lose 50 gold at lvl 1, but lose 2k gold at the 2 hour mark). And the design behind a lot of things we just accept as is these days is actually rooted behind this philosophy of making LoL a more casual and easier game compared to DotA 1 as it was back then. Things like "HP/MP regen per 5/s", summoner abilities (Flash, TP, Smite, REVIVE, etc.), towers dealing highhhh damage (compared to DotA), the OLD RUNE/mastery system, and I'm sure there's more if I dig but it's been a long time. These were intentional design choices intended to make the game more casual, fun, laid back, etc. It was still competitive due to how the game is by nature, but it was really trying to differentiate itself from DotA 1 this way and at the same time try to make the game more appealing since DotA 1 was very brutal to learn as a new player already back then (despite high lvl players' plays from back then looking like Bronze players these days probably). Seeing that you regen 2 HP per second is not nearly as exciting as seeing "10HP/5s" because number inflation activates the neurons at a glance. In DotA 1 you had to spend banked gold in order to revive instantly (it was a broken and more casual mechanic back then, but it got balanced to have a CD later), but in LoL you could just take the Flash and Revive sum and call it a day back then! Flash away from a gank into your tower range and nobody's touching you. And press Revive if it went to trash anyway, no cost other than it's CD! Turrets were designed to try and heavily discourage "toxic" dives. The overall DPS of a tower actually wasn't all that much higher than those in DotA 1, but because the towers dealt higher damage on a lower fire rate, it's easier to see you're tanking tower shots before you tank too many, and easier to see "moly baloney, this thing does dmg, I better not get near it". Old mastery system literally gave lvl 30 players an inherent advantage over new players. Not a problem in ranked, but you can see how it further creates a "casual" environment outside of ranked as well. Then there's the old rune system that literally PUSHED players (for better or worse) to "main" champions because it was so prohibitively expensive to branch out and invest into good runes for different champions, much less different classes/roles of champions. I could go on for literally years, but I think I've made my point by now to anyone reading still. Old players aren't delusional about old LoL being a casual and more "fun" game, because that's literally what it was when it first released. It's transformation into a more competitive fast paced game was very gradual over the years and I was actually largely dissatisfied with it as a game in it's olden days compared to it's peers DotA and HoN because of how it ran it's monetization and design in direct conflict of interest in regards to competitiveness.
That email submission from the viewer switching roles a lot really helped me! I have found myself swotching role every 150 games or so even though my support winrate is much higher than the rest. Both takes from Coach and Nathan really helped me sort it out. Great pod fellas
Me too actually! I have switched roles a lot since I started league 9 months ago, I've even joined both the Saltu Academy and MLS even though i'm still switching around my roles and trying to figure out what I truly want to play. The email really helped me buckled down and reflect on what role I truly enjoyed and wanted to play, so I switched to bot lane and have been having a blast!
While listening to the part starting from 28:57, I was waiting in champion select for my game to start. In game, I realise my shaco support actually has smite and a jungler item. I got 0 help bot, but managed to survive, and still got flamed for being 1/3/1 in min 18 after a very rough laning phase.
From the clip of Dr. K said I gathered that people with low cognitive flexibility isn’t gonna climb but he didn’t say it can’t be trained or taught. I don’t watch joe rogan but I assume the Dr did say people are born either doing or not doing a split naturally is true but the Dr probably didn’t say it can’t be trained. The human body from head to toe internal and external organs can be trained to do almost anything you want to train it to do bc the human body is truly wonderful
ive been messing around with chatGPT you guys should try it on your show. I asked it some fun questions like "help me build a well rounded champion pool for the jungle with three champions in it." it suggested gragas J4 and evelynn. i then asked it what I could do to improve at the game ... it was like it was a BBC listener it basically gave me all of the same suggestions you guys do. "practice with intent and consistency. focus on improving and ignore wins and losses." it blew my mind. Then I asked it a delusional question to see what its response would be I said "im better than my bronze teammates i should be diamond but the game is holding me back what should i do" it basically said many players feel there are external factors holding them back and its important to separate your self worth from the game and focus on having fun and improving and that rank is a reflection of your current skill level.
@@emprahsfinest7092 nope it talked about csing map/objective control reviewing games. sticking to one role and master a few champs. trade patterns lane matchups etc
Obviously Dr K knows about neural plasticity. He wasnt saying you cant relearn to be mentally flexible lol why did curtis go on a 10 minute tangent about it
What Dr K said: "If you're not Challenger tier...chances are it's because of your teammates right? I'm playing a game and I lose - it's because of my noob jungler. You can get locked into that particular idea right... Most people who play games, we suck...and it's because we're not cognitively flexible. We're not going to get better because we're not cognitively flexible about why we win or lose. We don't think about it critically" ~~~~~~~~ What Dr K essentially said: "When I play league. And something doesn't go my way...screw my jungler...he's inting my lane - That is my initial instinct" .... "So when it comes to this stuff...how convenient... Our default response to League when we die is; Rather than being curious as to why you're shit and problem solve and get into the details; I can just blame someone else, rather than taking responsibility for my own learning. So I believe you can train that and shift that mindset...see what I mean?...it's not like this person over there has a magical brain and I've got a shit brain." ~~~~~~~~ What Curtis heard Dr K say: "You're either cognitively flexible or you're not. Some people are just naturally flexible and some people aren't" ~~~~~~~~ What Curtis essentially heard Dr K say: "If you can't do the splits - You'll never be able to do the splits" If you aren't cognitively flexible - You'll never be cognitively flexible" If you have a fixed mindset - You'll always have a fixed mindset" "If you're Gold - You'll always be Gold" ~~~~~~~~ What Curtis said: "When I play league. And something doesn't go my way..screw my jungler...he's inting my lane - That is my initial instinct" .... "So when it comes to this stuff...how convenient... Our default response to League when we die is; Rather than being curious as to why you're shit and problem solve and get into the details; I can just blame someone else, rather than taking responsibility for my own learning So I believe you can train that and shift that mindset...see what I mean?...it's not like this person over there has a magical brain and I've got a shit brain." ~~~~~~~~ What Curtis essentially said: "If you're not challenger tier...chances are it's because of your teammates right? I'm playing a game and I lose - it's because of my noob jungler. You can get locked into that particular idea right... Most people who play games, we suck...and it's because we're not cognitively flexible. We're not going to get better because we're not cognitively flexible about why we win or lose. We don't think about it critically" ~~~~~~~~~ What I'm essentially saying: imgflip.com/memegenerator/134744787/9-6-Argument
Oh, i can relate to Dr.K's statement and the study a lot - Since I've started taking ADHD-Medication my ingame performance has decreased substantially since I am playing and analyzing way more narrow-minded. It can't be due to lack of focus, since that's what the medication is for^^ But I do not understand cognitive flexibility as a fixed state of mind, but actually more as a paradigm, which can be achieved i.e. by being coached etc. - so I think this study goes perfectly well with you Guys coaching and the growth mindset! :)
48:50 This podcast is always so hilarious when taken out of context man Also I like Mr. Curtis' new clip corner segue. It doesn't flow that great, but the phrase is very iconic and sounds nice on it's own at least.
Curtis, Drk used to be really good at Dota. I think what he was trying to say is that cognitive flexibility is actually a quantifiable thing, you can improve it but only to a certain extent which depends on genetics and other factors, not only that but it also decreases with age. So in Drk case he USED to be really good but is cognitive flexibility is decreasing. Our skill level fluctuates and if we aren't able to identify our mistakes or our ability to do so decreases, then our skill level will decrease with it aswell. Not to mention that our cognitive abilities overall also decrease with age. Cognitive flexibility isn't really applied DURING the game but on the end of the games. It's supposed to be an introspection tool of our minds, so I think what he was refering to was the ability to identify what TRULY made you lose the game, or at least be open to changing your model or perspective in relation to it.
anyone that resinates with the last mail or struggles with a similar issue. i used to be a Draven OTP for seasons. i never enjoyed the adc role but i was in love with Draven. however because off my lack off enjoyment on the role i just hated playing the game very often. at some point i decided its enough, im gonna take my journey serious and i hit diamond for the first time as Draven ADC. then i realized that this is not gonna be sustainable if i wanna take the game serious. i decided to swap to a role i did enjoy and where i could explore champions that i enjoyed. because i was exploring adcs for seasons and i just couldnt click with any off them besides Draven, because off how unique of an ADC he is. so anyway right now ive been playing midlane for 3 seasons now where the first one i was started off as mid and hit diamond and comfortably relaxed there. 2nd one i peaked master tier and 3rd one i peaked 250 LP master. and the most important part about all this, is that i actually enjoy playing the game. if i get bored off a champion i wont hate myself for playing mid because i enjoy mid and i can just swap off to another one for a while or test out different playstyles. i actually am super greatful to myself for making that difficult decision off ''starting from scratch'' on another role with 0 game time on it. so moral off the story, if you struggle picking a role or you're not enjoying ur current role at all. and you've tried everything possible to enjoy ur current role. make that swap ASAP, the sooner the better. ESPECIALLY if you see yourself playing this game few years from now still.
I was just introduced to this podcast series last week. Loving the content! 30:30 I recently had the chance to live in Europe and play on the Euw server (Based in NA). While only a bronze/silver player I had a 15-20 game stretch when *40-50% of the games were 'trolled' (Champ select, afk player, or obvious 'int-ing') in the game confirmed through vod reviews. I got into the game in September 2021; events like this make it hard to come back to the game - but the quality games, win or loss make a decade old game still fun. *Thought back and should clarify, I don't think it is this bad all of the time. Typically, it feels like 10-20% of games have a troll of some sort. May have to keep a tally for a month to get a larger data pool. **Update, over 3 sessions / 11 games today I had 4 games with afk's, more with more obscure trolling. The math doesn't look good - hope Riot's new updates to reporting helps.
Thanks for saying this, as this has been my experience for years in bronze and iron. Don’t forget about support as bots and random smurfs too. I feel like at this ELO the trolls are doing so because the game is hard and frustrating or because of some perceived greivance that offended them. Trolling is a fun way to easily seize control of the outcome of the game even if it means losing.
Such a powerful message in this podcast. Thanks for all the effort you guys put in. Also, 100k points, is nothing... There's massive difference between 100k, 500k and 1m.., massive... On 100k you barely know rotations and know how to use ur stuff and maybe have some rune setups and builds, you're just scratching surface of the game and champ. It's 500k and higher you are getting into actual details. I love what also said Curtis about champion master tier about the pocket pick Qiyana. I'm Azir player with over 1m points and after recent Azir rework, i'm literally learning new champion...
30:00 Why would I care does he want to lose from champ select or after his 1st, 2nd, 5th death, after I took red buff as adc at 20 minutes? Result is always the same, mentally ill guy, usually on a freshly bought lvl30-50 account just trolled my game. He is a troll. He left the game, went afk in the fountain or just rage split pushed with intention to die again and again. He deserves an actual 14 days ban. Answering your question. One of my accounts is in gold2-plat4 range. In the last 20 games I had 5 guys that trolled: - Two left the game after going 0-2/0-3. - One stated that me as an adc have no rights for a red buff at 20 minutes and I deserve to lose, so he let the opponent kill him a few times and then went afk in a fountain. - Two guys smurfed insanely hard in the first 15 minutes, like challenger in low elo 1v9 level smurfing, they were fed out of their mind as a carry junglers. As someone who coaches I saw that they understand the game. I didn't even need to ping them. I'm crushing 3 stacked waves? They are there, 5 sec in advance, landing their Nidalee spears. Opposing jungler takes Rift? They know that without even looking and already started a drake to trade the objectives. If they are 3-0. they are already in the opponents jungle killing the opponent and getting away without dying. These players were really legit. I felt like I'm in a game with an actual challenger player tryharding out of his mind. And then they just refused to win...They didn't take any objectives, always ran away from their team, tried to go literally 1v4/1v5, basically did everything to lose the game. I checked their profiles and every game was the same: they got gigafed early game and then they just went onto a death spree into losing the game with score like 15-8 cuz their team obviously didn't know how to win. I think it's obvious that these guys intentionally tanking their rank, so they can stay in low elo on these accounts and smurf on people. I learned to cope with this because I actually experience this issue in this elo for the last 3 years, but it doesn't make the situation right. You're living in a wonderful world where trolling is going 0-10. Most people live in a world where trolling means afk, leaving the game, actually running it down, often saying that he does it to punish other players in his team.
31:10 In the last 30 days? Maybe 1 or 2 games out of 70ish games I get a troll from champ select? (I play in blocks of 2 or 3, depends on my mood, time of day, how long/difficult those games+reviews were). It's hard me to say because I don't mind dodging the hard trolls and there very few "true" trolls as of late in my experience. It's usually someone on my team or the enemy's rage quits because of a game situation, or there's like an off meta pick in the game like Karthus bot (not troll at all tbh as they pop off in my experience). And even if I do get a hard troll, I just dodge and move on, or stop the queue if someone on my team dodges and wait for 5 mins. Furthermore, I used to get "more" trolls, but I find there's a strong correlation to the time of day you play to how many trolls/poor quality games you get. Playing at 6pm when everyone comes home from school/work so the matchmaking has more people to pull from generally gets you the average joe who might be a bit tilted, but not straight up running your game down and generally belongs on the right team in terms of balance. Playing at 6am will get you very lopsided games and people who are sleep deprived and addicted to the game who are highly tilted by how poor quality the games are at the time.
Curtis got so obsessed with what that first specialist said he started putting words in his mouth and ran away with it. I couldn't get through this video because he kept bringing it back again and again like it's facts. Love your other videos, though. Great work, guys
I'm not sure if this is what is meant with cognitive flexibility, but whenever you lose an objective fight just barely, you can rely on your adc or whoever to ping the dragon as you respawn. But the enemy 1-2 surviving players had like 20 seconds to kill it, even if you have no vision on it you know it's about to die and there is no point in walking to bot river, yet it's what happens in virtually every game in gold and below.
Mastery is such a good point. It’s just not really relevant. My second highest mastery is nunu because I played nunu for a while like 3 years ago when I was playing with friends, because I was the worst and no one wanted to play jungle and back then tank nunu was the best nunu by a decent bit, so I could just be a tank with an easy clear and gank. And play with friends without sucking. I’m not good at nunu now, at least not as good as I am with like at least 5 other champs, but it’s my second highest mastery still. I still keep it as a pocket pick if I’m filled jungle (I play top now) since it’s not super complicated, but I’m by no means good with nunu, at least not compared to my toplane champs, even ones that aren’t my main 3.
When it comes to genuin trolls. I can only think of 2 in my 2000+ games. It's probably closer to around 5, but no one believes me when I tell them my experience. I don't know what people classify as trolls, but I can only think of 2.
chef nathan and curtis cooking that league sauce, of course we dig it . 20:10 PS :Tryndamere with tp is troll it's ghost flash sir , joke aside I'm top main and I love playin weak side. Because the pressure is not on me to carry to the nexus, you just have to minimize your loss, most of the time they try to force some dives and int their lead. Defending top 1v2 is the best feeling ever as a top laner. The tough games are the greatest's ones.
I think the point that may be missed in the beginning was that you're both right. The growth mindset is true, but some people's base is just good while others isn't.
41:03 I’m so glad this was finally said. I’m only Masters 300 LP but I’ve wondered myself why some people can’t understand that people can genuinely just be having a bad game. I think a large majority of the player base is so skewed by the larger content creators who complain about their teammates and call other players shit because of things like that. When a large creator does this, their followers see this behavior as okay and it creates such a toxic culture. This is my biggest issue with League players. No one has empathy. No one has the ability to see past someone’s KDA and wonder “why” or ask if they need help. They just bitch and moan and want to instantly report.
It is clear that you don't understand what a troll is. Trynda in your example isnt trolling and if you look top and he takes plates, at leas you know he is trying. Lots of people would just sit under their tower while their top runs rampage on the rift lol. In lower ranks, people stop trying, sometimes after one death. The "if i cant be the carry, nobody can" mentality is extremely strong. Trolls make your game had, for their enjoyment, there is a big difference there. They die once and then start thinking hmmm ... Whats a fun build i can do. Or they swap lanes without asking etc etc.
It's funny how it hits Curtis about the cognitive flexibility... I was with friends and i brought up that talent is bullshit and if you work hard you can pretty be top 0,1% in anything.. But friends brought me some insight.. there is clearly some people with genetic abilities to be insane at something. Now i just think that's the difference between being very good at something VS top 100 in the world. Best exemple would be Magnus Carlsen in chess doing a tie against the world champion in chess at 13 years old. You need shiit ton of "talent" to be that person for sure.
I’d say as someone who’s been in almost every elo silver to plat I’d say 10 percent d4 specifically 15 and past that like 5 percent. The closer to diamond the bigger the egos the more likly someone is to carry over a emotion into the next champ select when something looks even slightly wrong.
I love your podcast was informed of it on reddit about a month ago and have listened since, your podcast helps aid the negative enviroment that is solo queue and keeps it about the individual. I do feel that most of the context is focused on mid and jg being that your both challengers in those roles, loved the Biopanther episode and it was so informative as a top laner, are there any coaches for top lane that does anything similar to your MLA program? Keep up the great work guys.
Im okay with someone having a bad day, the problem are the Ap Irelia supports, Xin Zhao ap supports, people saying "game is too easy" and not do anything but take jungle camps all game as an adc... Think theres differences xD
The part about the "troll" that just had a bad day and is tilted is so relatable. I've been that person and I've flamed that person. I need to just turn off chat so I don't get tilted and I don't flame someone who actually wants to win that's just having a bad game.
tbh, if someone says they will troll in champ select I dodge. But I can’t remember the last time I had someone intentionally wanting to lose from the first minute. it’s 1/100 games tops for me. and even if there is a case, I usually still get to play the first few minutes of my lane and get to play some trades and waves. so the game is very rarely 100% without learning.
6:25 you're misinterpreting it, it isn't biological. it is definitely something you have to work through, but you cannot work through it if you arent aware it is happening, effectively making it impossible
When I think of "trolling" in my games, it's true what you guys say: It's pretty rare for me to go into a game with someone who soft ints from the very beginning and is trying to lose the game. What I think is much more common are people who get tilted and then start spamming surrender and soft inting and rage splitting. People with a bad mental game will get tilted and give up. The worst ones are the ones who are personally playing poorly, but the rest of the team can carry. They will do everything they can to sabotage the game. For me, this is pretty common. Maybe like 10-20% of my games have someone who gives up.
One thing I don't understand (and I'm pretty bad, Bronze II, 0 LP). I gain 21 and lose 28. At a 55% win rate I demote, at 60% I get to Bronze I after 71 games? I have to win at a 70% rate to get to 16 games to promote from Bronze II to Bronze I. The MMR hidden factor seems to turn into a self fulfilling prophecy based on some unknown algorithm rather than actual game performances and that's super frustrating. Seeing streamers constantly creating new accounts to avoid this seems to reinforce this concept that ranked is just broken and the people saying just win more than you lose are either liars or just misinformed.
Agree that players who enter champ select with the intent to lose the game are incredibly rare. And the Tryndamere example you gave happens quite often and the player is flamed/labeled an inter even though a 5 minute VOD review shows what really happened. However, I didn’t hear any mention of a player (let’s say the Tryndamere who already had a bad day) who gets ganked, dies twice and then decides he is going to troll. In my opinion this/soft inting happens much more often and is still trolling.
As a new player of league, I started playing because I watched Arcane. I just got perma banned last week, and straight up, if I come back I will be trolling. I'll never give the game competitive attention again. I worked on my account, low elo jungle; watched videos and got better. I had skins, champions unlocked. I played roughly 100-130 games a month. I legitimately played the game. And as a jungler in low elo, learning how to play the game...I got banned atleast once a month. Reported every single game by somebody, flamed every single game. And banned for 2 weeks maybe 5 times. If I have a bad game, just a simple bad game, I know I'm getting banned. It's automatic. If I get cheese invaded, spam invaded, 0-5 by 15; I know my team will not FF, the game will go 45 minutes. And I know I'm going to be 0-20 by the end of it. There's nothing I can do. On a wierd one off bad game, I know 100% I'm getting banned.. And I'm perma banned now on the account I worked really hard on. Because I got 0-3 invaded and it was the 5th game in a row, so I'd had enough and just ran it down. 0-39 in a gane that should've been 15'd. But I can't afk, can't just sit it out, but I also can't actually play. And I'd had enough. 100 games a month, 700 games this season, one bad game, perma banned. So 100% if I buy one of those $3 lvl 30 accounts, I'm there for trolling. The reports and bans are bullshit
Sorry to hear this man. As someone who consistently plays in the BS of low elo, your skill will get better and you will start to see improvement if you stay mentally tough and keep focusing on improving rather than wins and losses.
@nathanrodriguez5891 I just quit and moved on bro. I had around 1500 games played last season, and about 750 this season. I played Talon because I thought he looked cool, I was a 32% winrate iron 3 talon jungle. Watched a bunch of UA-cam, was told to learn and stick to a champ to get good. Finally gave up on Talon after around 350 games. Picked up shyvana, 73% winrate and was climbing got to silver 4 before season end. Played nocturne and shyvana. Did preseason promos and won 8/10 games; it placed me in iron 2 and the climb began again. This was the last straw for me and league, flamed every game, shit talked and reported every game, constant 2 week bans simply because I was bad at the game or had a bad game. But when they perma banned my account; I'm done never again. 72% winrate climbing nocturne, worked to unlock all champs with blue crystals, had some cool skins on shyvana and nocturne. And the reporting Finally got me perma banned. I'll never play again. I've never seen such an entitled community of babies in any game I've played, I'm not surprised in the slightest that its dieing in NA. They're killing themselves
You guys should collab with Dr. K! Would totally love to see that. Also, there are fixed an immutable things about us, but that doesn't mean they determine even the majority of who we are. We all have the power to take control of our lives and strive for what we value. It's one of the fundamental struggles of life, and one worth contending with.,
Obiously agree that having a bad game isn't trolling, but you don't need to int to be a troll. It's all well and good that muting exists, but I do expect at least some level of punishment for people that mald in the chat and further tilt out the rest of the team. Not necessarily a ban, but just something to help them understand that they need to approach ranked with a level head. This, of course, in conjunction with punishments for the jerks that berate them and send them into spirals as well. Culturally in low ELO it's pretty clear that the term "int" has a double meaning and has made reporting real trolls that stroll down mid into enemy towers borderline useless. I imagine a decent portion of players conflate "inting" with unintentional deaths to bad calls or poor judgement. One of my least favorite terms to come to prominence since starting in beta and then coming back after 6 or 7 years.
I believe the amount of trolls definitely increases the lower the elo you go. I usually sit in bronze and silver and face not only trolls but also bots a lot in bronze way more then 1-4 out of a hundred games. Don't think I have ever played 100 ranked games a season and can think of numerous players who have trolled from champ select. It usually stems from people who are auto filled and get pissed when no one switches with them, and then I think we have a lot of Smurf accounts just come in and cause mayhem.
In terms of what makes an "actual" troll, I find that those are very rare. I find that a different type of "troll" is more common: someone who is tilted by their last game and wants to "pay it forward" by first-timing a champ or off-roling ("my jungler last game was shit so im gonna first time jungle"). They aren't actively trying to lose, but they don't care if they win + don't have the level of play that got them to this rank.
They arent that rare. I troll whenever i see some hardcore offmeta pick in my team. Last game the toplaner picked ezreal so i instalocked disco nunu. I also like playing double jungle ivern adc. I always warn my teammates in advance so if they dont dodge its their fault. Riot ruined dodging so trolling is far more effective from a time spent viewpoint. I can wait 12 HOURS to play after my 3rd dodge of the day or i can troll and we ff15, sometimes earlier if someone goes afk. Anonymous champ select also empowered the trolls because you cant look them up before game. Ive probably trolled 150 or so games out of the 400 i have played this season. Never got punished.
@@666Kaca yea turns out trolls are much less rare if you're one of them LOL. This is like a onetrick being like "my champ has 100% pick/ban presence in MY games" For people who don't troll, coming across a real troll is much rarer. Off meta nonsense like ezreal top is like... bad but often carryable.
@@fortcolors9887 i keep a "ranked diary" notepad docu where i write down the outcomes of every game with additional notes for context. After looking into it, i can say that on average 2/10 games i have a troll, this doesnt mean a bad player, it means a person who literally states in champ select/ingame chat "now i troll/now we lose" and runs it down/refuses to group/sabotages the team with bard R/goes full ap samira. So in 400 games i was trolled 80 times, i wouldnt call that rare. This season is by far THE worst ranked experience in 12 years of me playing league
@@666Kaca I'm sure you do. I'm equally certain, based on your previous comment, that in at least half those games the trolling player who said in champ select they don't intend to win is... you btw, the working definition of a troll is not including people who get tilted by in-game events. If enemy top gets a double kill off an invade before minions spawn so your top says "gg" and runs it? That's not a troll, that's someone who's frustrated by not being able to lane.
My biggest issue with League isnt the ‘1% genuine troll’, its the afking. Its been the worst ive seen this season, and its made me want to quit. I thought it was going to tone down after preseason, but no. Its like atleast 20% of games, thats a lot! I think you guys may forget that the higher rank you are, the less afks and trolling, not saying theres none. But the higher rank you are, the more likely youre playing with people who take the game seriously and know how to improve. Through your process, Ive gotten a lot better at letting go of those games with an afk teammate, but when you get days in a row of having an afk teammate it can be so demoralizing. When one person in a 10 person game throws the whole result by leaving, its so tilting. On top of this, its been hard for me to actually consistently get Mid this season. It feels like I end up playing Support as much as mid 😂 So it can make me want to quit when theres spikes of unfortunate things outside my control, and my rank is judged on that. I keep telling myself, “just get to Plat! Itll be better!” but idk. Been losing motivation
One thing Curtis is using his coaching base as a control which is very flawed because they must already have a level of cogitative flexibility too seek a coach. the truly inflexible are like Neace and no matter how much you try their mind is made up and they are right no matter the proof. They can review their game and see nothing new because they knew what happened and they cant even change their mind when they think they are being analytical, your video about Neace is essentially a proof of DR.k's point and proof not everyone can learn not to be flexable.
Regarding the SoloQ Troll, the example you gave is fair while I would like to think I would not really blame the trynd in that situation but then as a bot/supp player, this is the kinda situation that would absolutely blow my mental apart since a fed top then gets to do whatever he wants around the map blowing up all the squishies while taking everyone out like Thanos. I think however your definition of a Troll is still too strict. What I would consider a real troll (after the game ends and I have time to reset mental) is for sure someone who decides as soon as the get in champ select or even after the draft that they just dont want the team to win and runs it down with no intention of winning. However I would also say someone in a more fair situation, they got the champ they wanted to play, they got the swap they wanted in champ sel, their matchup isnt doomed or great, but they die once or see something happen across the map not even in their lane (like enemy jungle getting a double on an invade) and decide at that moment that they arent going to be playing the game seriously when the game is completely recoverable. Repeated misplays might get me mad during the game but the people that really stay in my mind as a true troll is someone who decides to grief the game for all 4 of their teammates over something small happening that may or may not be in their control. This could be wasting summoners (flashing in place), itemizing completely wrong (kraken slayer yuumi levels of wrong), opening their lane while leaching exp from another lane (while not contributing anything to that lane) or even just dying on cooldown to one or more of the enemy players. As someone in what I consider low elo (Gold 1-3), this is like 15-20% of my games and I am not sure if this is just a Gold thing because I play on a Bronze account to try other roles or champs but games with this definition of a troll are like maybe 10% and people are just more mentally stable.
Just a thing here in the beggining, I did not see the soctor say that you canot develop the cognitive flexibility, maybe he doesnt mean that you can't, just at the moment they tested it, some people have more and some have less, for whatever reason, which could be that some developed it and some didn't as much
Question to AI: Is cognitive flexibility a skill that can be developed? Answer: Yes, cognitive flexibility is a skill that can be developed. It refers to the ability to adapt and change one's thinking or approach in response to different situations or tasks. There are various exercises, activities, and strategies that can help improve cognitive flexibility, such as trying new experiences, engaging in problem-solving tasks, and practicing mindfulness. It's important to note that like any skill, it may take time and consistent effort to see improvement.
I’m currently Platinum 2 and climbed from Silver 2 this season. In the 100 games I’ve played ranked solo queue this season I honestly don’t think I’ve gotten a single serious troll. Yes I’ve had a few games where teammates afk after a few deaths or failed plays but they weren’t decided from the start that they were gonna run it down. At least it wasn’t obvious! From my experience it is not super common, but I will say the afk/leaver/griefers are pretty common. I may have had like 3-4 games out of my 100 where teammates just afk dc and move on
Let's be honest, most trolls on LOL are actually griefers and team mates that give up. Most of the time the games starts well and, after certain events, teammates can start to grief or give up. That's the most common case of annoyance in the game. Now, we can debate if griefing and trolling are the same thing. In my understanding, trolling is done to for pure enjoyment and doesn't necessarily cause harm, griefing on the other hand is a proper toxic behaviour to limit the enjoyment of other players. Even with these definitions, most LOL players actually give up more than troll/grief. They don't want to play that game anymore because it feels pointless to play. That is in my opinion the most common cause of toxicity in the game, the idea that there's nothing to do anymore, should just move on, spin the lucky wheel and hope that next time it will be better.
haven't played that much of league ranked, but if it's 1-5%, it's still less than in dota, where from my exp it would be 15-20% if we count both teams, not just mine
My god guys! Seems like you have same YT recommendations as I do. I've recently looked up cognitive flexibility and was going to email u about this, and here we are at the same day you release a podcast about it LMAO. This is insane coincidence! Thank you for your job bois!
I like this defintion more: Cognitive flexibility is an intrinsic property of a cognitive system often associated with the mental ability to adjust its activity and content, switch between different task rules and corresponding behavioral responses, maintain multiple concepts simultaneously and shift internal attention between them MAINTAIN MULTIPLE CONCEPTS SIMULTANEOUSLY! This is huge. THat's why this term correlates with rank in league.
I started to sympathise with my team when I started to wath replays. It is many times just one small mistake. I am in iron and I can see most try to lose gracefully and be useful. But without replays I wouldn't see it
Guys, correlation and causation are not the same. When he says cognitive flexibility is correlated with high rank, it doesn't tell us anything about the direction of that relationship. Odds are that you develop high cognitive flexibility by learning league, which would correlate the two.
Actual trolls are very rare, smurfs/elo boosters are more common and they are rare also. I dunno if it's still the case, but bots were very common in low Bronze games which seemed kinda bad (I started playing lol again after a few years and my account had soft reset down to iron1. Was pretty frustrating getting out of bot hell). By far it's just people that get easily tilted by in game events and give up. Having a bad game isn't trolling, we all have those 0-7 games from time to time. But losing a dragon fight, selling all your items and going afk is something that should get you a weeks enforced holiday from lol...
6:20 I don't think he meant some people can be cognitively flexible and some can't ever, I think he meant many people can't with their current mental and emotional states
Very impressive for you guys to completely misunderstand the Dr. K clip the same way Joe Rogan obviously misunderstood his doctor. Everyone CAN be flexible both physically and mentally, but it isn't a skill that everyone is actively working on improving. That's all that's being said. Yes anyone /can/ just do the splits but some people can do it without training themselves to do so. Yes everyone /can/ be cognitively flexible at any activity they pursue, but not everyone will naturally be working to improve, have the interest to improve and some folks will bave to put more work into changing their mentality to be able to be as flexible.
That troll definition is also way too strict just so you can make a good point poorly. If someone joins in, fucks up and decides to run it down oe argue with someone until they run it down, that's a troll/int game. I don't care if they queued up wanting to win because they decided while the game state was absolutely winnable to intentionally stop themselves from winning. In terms of frequency I can go days without encountering one and then have a day where half of my games are inted pre-10 minutes.
4-5% sounds spot on, but I would absolutely include people who give up after one or two deaths into the troll category. People who at any point in the game stop even trying their bare minimum are trolls no question about it
Hate to be a bearer of bad news. But the real part you seem to be mistaken is, teammates DO matter. The "adaptive mindset" is mostly adapting to what you know in your region works, what doesn't, and most importantly, what causes your teammates to tilt so hard they will int it down early so you can't scale/carry. In my region, NA, south, no mages are allowed bot lane. No support lee sins/anivias etc. People will actively tell you to unalive yourself before the game begins. If you don't play THEIR meta, the games over before it starts. Abusing pregame mechanics like dodges/porofessor etc 3rd party abusive aps. "adapting". Etc. Its a team game, you NEED a team. You cannot always tilt them before the game starts. The BEST champions per role don't matter. Its the one that wins you the most. Not because YOU play it well, but because your team accepts it, plays around it, and lets you carry/help them. Lee sin has the highest basic shield. It hits 2 people. It has the lowest cd. its great. 0/99 adc. it happens.
You know what i always say. One person's troll is another person's learning the game or just having a bad game/off day. Though nothing is more tilting than losing or dying to a Soraka Top that then flashes Mastery 7 emote especially with the eternal thingies above it. Now take that to low elo and you have a recipe for tilting the ever living hell out of the enemies especially those that were supposed to counter the champion such as Tryndamere Top, kill him once flash Mastery 7 and suddenly he tunnels vision on killing you so you just kill him over and over even under your own tower as he ults way to early. But still that is a bad or newer player learning the game that now looks like a inter by losing to what is supposed to bea Support that is actually building support items. Also i did it past patch 10.4 when Soraka was at her worst as I am a good Soraka player in general and a ok top laner so i know how to tether a bit and keep safe while tilting the enemies Though stuff like Morde, Darius, and Garen that Soraka Top hard counters and those types of matchups made it look still strong at the time, as realistically they should have no possible way of dealing with a Soraka without their jungler's help, and even then who would try and gank a enemy Soraka Top? they would just be wasting their time as obviously the river is giga warded to hell and back as the cockroach er i mean Soraka don't wanna die. And all she does is farm for her items and then perma roam and help the team maybe even snowballing them to victory Funny thing is not even Tank players wanna play Soraka Top as according to them it is too uninteractive for them which is ironic. But using Magic the Gathering Terms Soraka is a Bant champion as in Blue White Green color combination so in the hands of the right player it's too oppressive no matter what
i think the doctor meant in that moment youre flexible or no,t and i think the doctor joe rogan saw meant some people are naturally more flexible just like how some people are naturally quicker sprinters
I disagree with the never say sorry in your games mindset. I personally like when people understand that they aren’t playing their best and admit to it. I think this IS owning up to your shortcoming as long as you are coming at it with the right attitude. And “just accepting your flame” can also be tied in with apologies. Maybe they get the flame and think “you know what, that person is right, my b on this game, I’ll work on it” that can be a really positive mindset to have and is a thousand times better than them not accepting their flame, fighting back, and missing their shortcomings all together. Just a quick thought on that since I heard it and cringed a little.
I think surely we could agree games where someone goes afk after a death or X amount of deaths counts as a troll right? Because really the implication of a “troll” is the idea that the game is a loss truly out of your control, and a 4v5 despite having seen it being won a handful of times in my life is pretty much a guaranteed loss
Here's the thing in low elo. You turn on pc to start playing tou que up for game 1 u get a win. Que up again you lose not a bad loss just you lose. Que up again you get rolled hard loss x lane fed game over. Que up again you get trolled another loss. Now tour 3 or 4 hours in with a loosing record now your pissed your mood is horrible now you start to troll. You Que into a game lock in some champ you never played and now you start to do to others what they did to you. That's how low elo works.
I'm pretty sure some cognitive abilities cannot be improved alot. Like reflexes, as a tryndame main I'm still too slow to ult even after 1mil points, even when trying to survive a garen ult which apparently is very slow according to guides
Re:cognitive disability, I don’t think Dr K was at all implying that cognitive flexibility is something that can’t be improved; his entire job as a psychiatrist is helping people see how they can change their brain patterns. Also he’s mentioned before that he worked with a coach in dota and improved massively.
With the trolling issue there would statistically be more “trolls” in low elo due to low cognitive flexibility and poor attitudes keeping them in low elo. These players could also assign their low rank to others (bad teammates), so at the slightest inconvienience they decide to troll the game for the team. Also the lower the elo is there is the possibility that there are players who intentionally derank an account to sell it as an “iron/bronze” account for smurfs to make a “iron to challenger” video series on stream or youtube. I just had 2 players who duo together and lose game together with random keyboard conffetti names ran it down to make us lose and have a whopping 0-19 record together.
It did irk me how Curtis doesn't even consider that the experts opinion could have some validity, and working around that opinion to formulate something that's both nuanced yet doesn't completely disregard and challenge the facts.
My take on it with ur comparison to joe Rogan… people can be naturally more flexible or in this case people can be naturally more cognitively flexible with out practice but It’s not to say u can’t be flexible ever or cognitively flexible you just have to train ur body or brain respectively
Genuine trolls are rare. But too often ppl NEED to be the main character in an anime. People refuse to get carried. This happens all the time and is one reason I climbed a bit higher than my strict "skill level" as such. When my team basically auto wins and I'm behind, I enable them and enjoy the freelo. My tristana is 6 and 0 and my hecarim is 2k ahead? I'm 0 2 in lane and down half an item? Cool. I'll ensure Heca always gets support and protect that trist. Freelo. What too many other players do instead is this: They feel bad about being the only player who is behind on their team. They then try to also win hard to "fit in" and make it impossible for their team to close out because they keep dying.
I muck around in low mmr for fun. Maybe im a troll because ive actively deranked, but honestly at least 1 in 4 games i dont have to do anything and people on my team will grief. Bronze and iron is full of trolls. Its not even cope. Its just reality.
JimBob is not a troll but JimBob is also not realistic. What is realistic is JimBob just had a bad game where he got counterpicked and ended up losing. No one in that game noticed anything abnormal about his behavior. But JimBob is fuming; he's completely stuck in the "if only my last pick had swapped with me then none of this would have happened". JimBob queues up again, he's first pick again. Nobody swaps with him again. At this point JimBob checks out. He's just seen this literally minutes ago, he KNOWS he's going to go 1/9 again before he's even locked his champion. So what's the point? Why try? Might as well just pick blitzcrank top and roam around making some silly plays. That sounds way, WAY more fun than just getting shitstomped in lane again. So that's what he does. Now is this JimBob a troll? Most people would say yes and want a legitimate ban. The second people perceive you as not trying to win they don't want you in the game. League is not a place for fun. League is a place to pour your blood, sweat, and tears until you have nothing left. Either you enjoy that pain or it slowly wears down on you until you become one of the trolls you were complaining about.
I swear since I've reached plat the amount of trolls and negative experiences I had in league is just insane idk I hope this is just a few unlucky day but people just pissed all day and have a general bad mood idk whats going on atm
I'm sure you guys will cover it individually....but would you mind doing a BBC Exclusive video about 13.10? SPECIFICALLY the minion changes...because it's going to seriously change the macro level of the game for the first 14 minutes. Also, Curtis, about Cognitive Flexiblity...I recommend you really think about all of the people you've coached. How many of them were stuck because of their rigid thinking about how the game works? Because of their narratives that they couldn't let go of? Consider that your method of coaching, and teaching people to actively think about the game, is actually training people to be cognitively flexible. Now consider how many of those people never would have developed those skills if it weren't for you teaching them to think more critically about the game. That's what Dr. K is talking about. It's more of a skill than a biological factor. The brain is a muscle, and just like any other muscle you can train it to do things better. (PS: Rewatch the clip, particularly the very end. "We're not cognitively flexible about why we win or lose. We don't think about it critically.") I think Dr. K is right. The reason people like you are Challenger is because you think that way intuitively. The reason most people aren't climbing is because they don't think that way intuitively, and they tend become more rigid in thoughts as they get older, and that's when they start to form those narratives and find external sources to blame, because in their minds they already know everything about the game and how to play it, so it must be some external thing that is holding them back. (You can also find psychological studies about how people get stuck in negative thought patterns etc too, seems congruent with your tangent about neuron rigidity and habits. Also, the trail metaphor is a perfect example of how and why your VOD review method works.) I wrote most of this halfway through your comments on the topic. I think you had a solid grasp on it by the end of your thinking/speech about it, but you seemed a little iffy at first so I wanted to talk about it and put it in other words for both you and other viewers. It may be easier to imagine that Cognitive Flexibility and Critical Thinking are the same thing. The tl:dr is, it's fixable...but most people can't fix it on their own. People with body oder could just wear deoderant, but why would they if they don't know they stink? Some people just need people like you to tell them that they stink in order to know that they need deorderant. I think at the end of the day, you and Dr. K are actually on the same page. It would be awesome if you could do a show with him. If you were to elaborate and discuss with him I think you would find that your view is quite congruent with the science he's talking about. Cheers mate. Great episode. I wish I could sit down with you and discuss these kinds of things myself. PS: Troll topic is difficult. I think a lot of people intentionally lose games AFTER they get into the game because they get angry about someone on their team typing to them, failed jungle gank, someone didn't rotate when they think they should have, etc. I legitimately see that happen in like ~10%-15%, maybe more, but I also believe that's an almost strictly NA issue...Even Broxah has said it, players in NA just don't want to win for some reason. Actual from champ select trolls? Definitely much lower, but I still see people "troll pick" because someone on their team didn't role swap with them when they got autofilled etc. It's actually a very common thing for people to pick random crap in an attempt to convince someone else on the team to dodge. Okay, hyperolic maybe. Maybe ~5% isn't "Very common", but I would argue that anything above 0.5% for this kind of thing is too much. PPS: That guys OPGG is a literal work of art. That man is the Jackson Pollock of League.
I don't know if you know this, but Neace made a video similar to his cookielol vid bad mouthing your neace vid. He got shit on in the comments because he said he didn't even watch your video. He ended up deleting his video.
I just hit Master for the first time ever. I never thought I could get this far as a Jungler or as a player ever. It's all thanks to you two blokes in OCE. Love being a BBCer.
Love to hear my fellow junglers improving at the game and achieving their ranked goals. Keep at it, Attaker! - Nathan
This Season is very inflated and everybody is basically 200-400lp above their actual rank . S13 master is like Diamond 3 last season. No offense , I am inflated as well , but your rank doesn't matter in s13 . I play around diamond 1 and diamond 2 mmr and 90% of players were platinum last season and you can definetely tell from their gameplay . ( I used to be plat 2 last season)
So yeah . S13 ranks are kinda a joke .
@@overpoweredjelly3513 so I’m not worth of gold 3 😂😂
@@overpoweredjelly3513 Or maybe people have improved? Stop putting people's accomplishments down for no reason, it doesn't help anything.
@@EvilHedgehogYT that's one way to look at it if you are if you are delusional . And it's not even an accomplishment. They are not getting better and achieving a higher rank . They are the same elo and skill , it's just that the visual color of the rank that changes .
Inflation is only bad for the game cuz it devalues ranks , diamond now for example is literally low elo pisslow and it only increases people's ego cuz they think they are better at the game when they are not .
Even if its a shot in the dark, you should reach out to Dr.K. He has been working with average to pro level league players for quite some time now. I feel like a podcast where you could ask the hard hitting psyche oriented questions would be awesome. (Motivations, Models for Learning, Mindset). Even presenting to him your theories on soloq models for learning would help further enforce your beliefs and help build them stronger.
Yes, I often watch both their videos and a collab would be the best!
Totes!
It was my understanding that Dr. K wasn't saying cognitive flexibility was an immutable characteristic just that it is not well taught or understood but i could be wrong. Keep up the good work guys!
Definitely second this. I wish they had heard more about what he had to say about gaming in general during that podcast.
Sean from mailbag here, thank you guys so much for diving into my question. I really appreciate the seal of approval 😁. I think one of the things that I hadn't thought about was the reason I was doing better in Support was the anxiety and that I was playing better without the pressure, I like that takeaway. I definitely feel like a weight has been taken off my shoulders and even the process of submitting the email last week was a bit of a cathartic release and played some mid blocks this weekend and I played free and lose and didn't think about anything besides being in the moment. It weirdly felt like I was playing League of Legends 2 in the sense that I could see so many things that I had just been so busy not focusing on because I was too busy worried about other people, the mental stack and the sheer concept of getting into the details feels unlocked somehow. I think a new Midlaner has been born in this process and after as you said I int away a few months I will take a look at joining the Mid Lane School. Thanks again guys!
Just stay confident and inquisitive. To me a player should always do just whatever is fun for them. I've swapped champions like 3 times this season because of boredom and frustration. It has certainly hurt my climb several times but I found that I wasn't getting the games in or my experience with the game was more toxic simply because I wasn't having fun anymore. When I swapped and kind of reset myself, I began to have fun and climb once again. At the end of the day we are playing a game and we are doing it for enjoyment. It's fun to challenge ourselves and if we are fresh and not god-like at this moment in time, it doesn't mean we can't get there later on. Stick to mute chat or mute-all if need be and play your game the way you want. You'll get much further along even passively by sticking to that gut feeling and just interacting with the game more in a positive mindset.
If you're purely looking for short-term goals like gold for rewards the last week of the season, then you might consider sticking to what wins and having slightly less fun just for that reason. Otherwise just go the long ways to make it worth your time and enjoy it.
Something i'm surprised that no one brought up (though i guess its secondary in the end cause its correct that you really shouldn't care about other people's opinions at all on how well you do at the role, play for yourself and your own improvement/enjoyment etc) is that the way matchmaking works is that if you queue up for mid , its trying to put you with people who queued up for other roles. Not mid. I'm a jungle player for example, even if my mid does dogshit i don't want to have been mid instead, cause i play jungle, i wanna play MY role. I'm sure the vast majority of people are the same.
So yeah, just a little thought i had coming at the anxiety from the other direction. In the end you gotta remember that thats what anxiety is, unreasonable fears that aren't really grounded in reality. Sometimes reminding yourself of the specifics of why they don't make much sense can help you get past them. Works that way for me atleast.
I started playing in S10, picked up jungle when I was in silver after 3-4 months of playing league. I was learning jungle through Olaf because I watched Nathan's S10 Olaf guide. Throughout the seasons I was switching champions here and there but most of the time I was maining/onetricking khazix. I wanted to learn different champions but I always gave up after few days/weeks. I lost motivation in S12 after dropping to platinum and I wasn't having much fun so I barely even played the game for the second half of the season. In preseason I wanted to change that and learn a different champion and that's when I started playing Lillia. At the start I was having more fun than when I started playing league in S10. After few days I wanted to give up AGAIN but I remembered what you said on the podcast about the learning journey when it comes to learning a new champion so I sticked with it and continued learning, getting better and having a LOTS OF FUN with this champion. It took me less than 2 months to hit diamond in S13 by onetricking lillia only. It was a huge moment for me since it was the first time I got Diamond without playing a single game of khazix and I was very proud of myself that I made it with this new champion and didn't give up! Now few days ago I got Master on EUW for the very first time! I don't think it would be possible without you guys... Thank you so much for the content you're the best!
i dont think dr kay was saying you cant improve, i took it as he was saying thats the number 1 trait holding people back from improving.
25:50 You know this is an interesting discussion because I started the game in season 1 or even like as early as open beta. I have Judgement Kayle on multiple accounts because I made alts back then. I have accounts that are that old.
Fat text wall ahead, but TL;DR - Old LoL was DESIGNED to be casual and "fun", so it's not surprising very old players are nostalgic of what it used to be if they were attracted to the old LoL. I for one have warmed up to LoL over it's more recent competitive years as opposed to it's old "for fun" design.
...
What I want to say is that people might not remember it, but LoL was marketed as a CASUAL game back then! The way it tried to get people to play it instead of DotA 1 (the modded WC3 custom map DotA before it's sequel got created by Valve), was that it marketed the game as being more forgiving than some of DotA 1's hardcore mechanics.
I still remember the general message being sent out by their marketing slogans back then.
They had things like "no denying!" and "no gold loss on death!" The implication was that you don't have to experience all of these "bad" and "toxic" things opponents can do you to in DotA 1 if you come play our game, LoL!
For some context, you can kill your ally creeps in DotA to deny enemy last hits and reduce the exp they receive by a % (idk how it is these days as I haven't played DotA 2 in years now). And to this day, you still lose unspent gold on death in DotA, and it scales as the game progresses (so you might lose 50 gold at lvl 1, but lose 2k gold at the 2 hour mark).
And the design behind a lot of things we just accept as is these days is actually rooted behind this philosophy of making LoL a more casual and easier game compared to DotA 1 as it was back then. Things like "HP/MP regen per 5/s", summoner abilities (Flash, TP, Smite, REVIVE, etc.), towers dealing highhhh damage (compared to DotA), the OLD RUNE/mastery system, and I'm sure there's more if I dig but it's been a long time.
These were intentional design choices intended to make the game more casual, fun, laid back, etc. It was still competitive due to how the game is by nature, but it was really trying to differentiate itself from DotA 1 this way and at the same time try to make the game more appealing since DotA 1 was very brutal to learn as a new player already back then (despite high lvl players' plays from back then looking like Bronze players these days probably).
Seeing that you regen 2 HP per second is not nearly as exciting as seeing "10HP/5s" because number inflation activates the neurons at a glance.
In DotA 1 you had to spend banked gold in order to revive instantly (it was a broken and more casual mechanic back then, but it got balanced to have a CD later), but in LoL you could just take the Flash and Revive sum and call it a day back then! Flash away from a gank into your tower range and nobody's touching you. And press Revive if it went to trash anyway, no cost other than it's CD!
Turrets were designed to try and heavily discourage "toxic" dives. The overall DPS of a tower actually wasn't all that much higher than those in DotA 1, but because the towers dealt higher damage on a lower fire rate, it's easier to see you're tanking tower shots before you tank too many, and easier to see "moly baloney, this thing does dmg, I better not get near it".
Old mastery system literally gave lvl 30 players an inherent advantage over new players. Not a problem in ranked, but you can see how it further creates a "casual" environment outside of ranked as well. Then there's the old rune system that literally PUSHED players (for better or worse) to "main" champions because it was so prohibitively expensive to branch out and invest into good runes for different champions, much less different classes/roles of champions.
I could go on for literally years, but I think I've made my point by now to anyone reading still. Old players aren't delusional about old LoL being a casual and more "fun" game, because that's literally what it was when it first released. It's transformation into a more competitive fast paced game was very gradual over the years and I was actually largely dissatisfied with it as a game in it's olden days compared to it's peers DotA and HoN because of how it ran it's monetization and design in direct conflict of interest in regards to competitiveness.
That email submission from the viewer switching roles a lot really helped me! I have found myself swotching role every 150 games or so even though my support winrate is much higher than the rest. Both takes from Coach and Nathan really helped me sort it out. Great pod fellas
Me too actually! I have switched roles a lot since I started league 9 months ago, I've even joined both the Saltu Academy and MLS even though i'm still switching around my roles and trying to figure out what I truly want to play. The email really helped me buckled down and reflect on what role I truly enjoyed and wanted to play, so I switched to bot lane and have been having a blast!
While listening to the part starting from 28:57, I was waiting in champion select for my game to start. In game, I realise my shaco support actually has smite and a jungler item. I got 0 help bot, but managed to survive, and still got flamed for being 1/3/1 in min 18 after a very rough laning phase.
honestly mute all, and mute pings if necessary, every game. fuck this community, just enjoy the game as a single-player experience
From the clip of Dr. K said I gathered that people with low cognitive flexibility isn’t gonna climb but he didn’t say it can’t be trained or taught. I don’t watch joe rogan but I assume the Dr did say people are born either doing or not doing a split naturally is true but the Dr probably didn’t say it can’t be trained. The human body from head to toe internal and external organs can be trained to do almost anything you want to train it to do bc the human body is truly wonderful
ive been messing around with chatGPT you guys should try it on your show. I asked it some fun questions like "help me build a well rounded champion pool for the jungle with three champions in it." it suggested gragas J4 and evelynn. i then asked it what I could do to improve at the game ... it was like it was a BBC listener it basically gave me all of the same suggestions you guys do. "practice with intent and consistency. focus on improving and ignore wins and losses." it blew my mind. Then I asked it a delusional question to see what its response would be I said "im better than my bronze teammates i should be diamond but the game is holding me back what should i do" it basically said many players feel there are external factors holding them back and its important to separate your self worth from the game and focus on having fun and improving and that rank is a reflection of your current skill level.
yeah that probably means it just gives vague advice that is good for literally any game
@@emprahsfinest7092 nope it talked about csing map/objective control reviewing games. sticking to one role and master a few champs. trade patterns lane matchups etc
Obviously Dr K knows about neural plasticity. He wasnt saying you cant relearn to be mentally flexible lol why did curtis go on a 10 minute tangent about it
What Dr K said:
"If you're not Challenger tier...chances are it's because of your teammates right?
I'm playing a game and I lose - it's because of my noob jungler.
You can get locked into that particular idea right...
Most people who play games, we suck...and it's because we're not cognitively flexible.
We're not going to get better because we're not cognitively flexible about why we win or lose. We don't think about it critically"
~~~~~~~~
What Dr K essentially said:
"When I play league. And something doesn't go my way...screw my jungler...he's inting my lane - That is my initial instinct"
....
"So when it comes to this stuff...how convenient...
Our default response to League when we die is;
Rather than being curious as to why you're shit and problem solve and get into the details;
I can just blame someone else, rather than taking responsibility for my own learning.
So I believe you can train that and shift that mindset...see what I mean?...it's not like this person over there has a magical brain and I've got a shit brain."
~~~~~~~~
What Curtis heard Dr K say:
"You're either cognitively flexible or you're not.
Some people are just naturally flexible and some people aren't"
~~~~~~~~
What Curtis essentially heard Dr K say:
"If you can't do the splits - You'll never be able to do the splits"
If you aren't cognitively flexible - You'll never be cognitively flexible"
If you have a fixed mindset - You'll always have a fixed mindset"
"If you're Gold - You'll always be Gold"
~~~~~~~~
What Curtis said:
"When I play league. And something doesn't go my way..screw my jungler...he's inting my lane - That is my initial instinct"
....
"So when it comes to this stuff...how convenient...
Our default response to League when we die is;
Rather than being curious as to why you're shit and problem solve and get into the details;
I can just blame someone else, rather than taking responsibility for my own learning
So I believe you can train that and shift that mindset...see what I mean?...it's not like this person over there has a magical brain and I've got a shit brain."
~~~~~~~~
What Curtis essentially said:
"If you're not challenger tier...chances are it's because of your teammates right?
I'm playing a game and I lose - it's because of my noob jungler.
You can get locked into that particular idea right...
Most people who play games, we suck...and it's because we're not cognitively flexible.
We're not going to get better because we're not cognitively flexible about why we win or lose. We don't think about it critically"
~~~~~~~~~
What I'm essentially saying:
imgflip.com/memegenerator/134744787/9-6-Argument
36:42 i love the energy from Curtis, he is so passionate
Oh, i can relate to Dr.K's statement and the study a lot - Since I've started taking ADHD-Medication my ingame performance has decreased substantially since I am playing and analyzing way more narrow-minded.
It can't be due to lack of focus, since that's what the medication is for^^
But I do not understand cognitive flexibility as a fixed state of mind, but actually more as a paradigm, which can be achieved i.e. by being coached etc. - so I think this study goes perfectly well with you Guys coaching and the growth mindset! :)
48:50 This podcast is always so hilarious when taken out of context man
Also I like Mr. Curtis' new clip corner segue. It doesn't flow that great, but the phrase is very iconic and sounds nice on it's own at least.
Curtis, Drk used to be really good at Dota. I think what he was trying to say is that cognitive flexibility is actually a quantifiable thing, you can improve it but only to a certain extent which depends on genetics and other factors, not only that but it also decreases with age. So in Drk case he USED to be really good but is cognitive flexibility is decreasing. Our skill level fluctuates and if we aren't able to identify our mistakes or our ability to do so decreases, then our skill level will decrease with it aswell. Not to mention that our cognitive abilities overall also decrease with age.
Cognitive flexibility isn't really applied DURING the game but on the end of the games. It's supposed to be an introspection tool of our minds, so I think what he was refering to was the ability to identify what TRULY made you lose the game, or at least be open to changing your model or perspective in relation to it.
anyone that resinates with the last mail or struggles with a similar issue. i used to be a Draven OTP for seasons. i never enjoyed the adc role but i was in love with Draven. however because off my lack off enjoyment on the role i just hated playing the game very often. at some point i decided its enough, im gonna take my journey serious and i hit diamond for the first time as Draven ADC. then i realized that this is not gonna be sustainable if i wanna take the game serious. i decided to swap to a role i did enjoy and where i could explore champions that i enjoyed. because i was exploring adcs for seasons and i just couldnt click with any off them besides Draven, because off how unique of an ADC he is. so anyway right now ive been playing midlane for 3 seasons now where the first one i was started off as mid and hit diamond and comfortably relaxed there. 2nd one i peaked master tier and 3rd one i peaked 250 LP master. and the most important part about all this, is that i actually enjoy playing the game. if i get bored off a champion i wont hate myself for playing mid because i enjoy mid and i can just swap off to another one for a while or test out different playstyles. i actually am super greatful to myself for making that difficult decision off ''starting from scratch'' on another role with 0 game time on it. so moral off the story, if you struggle picking a role or you're not enjoying ur current role at all. and you've tried everything possible to enjoy ur current role. make that swap ASAP, the sooner the better. ESPECIALLY if you see yourself playing this game few years from now still.
I was just introduced to this podcast series last week. Loving the content!
30:30 I recently had the chance to live in Europe and play on the Euw server (Based in NA). While only a bronze/silver player I had a 15-20 game stretch when *40-50% of the games were 'trolled' (Champ select, afk player, or obvious 'int-ing') in the game confirmed through vod reviews. I got into the game in September 2021; events like this make it hard to come back to the game - but the quality games, win or loss make a decade old game still fun.
*Thought back and should clarify, I don't think it is this bad all of the time. Typically, it feels like 10-20% of games have a troll of some sort. May have to keep a tally for a month to get a larger data pool. **Update, over 3 sessions / 11 games today I had 4 games with afk's, more with more obscure trolling. The math doesn't look good - hope Riot's new updates to reporting helps.
Thanks for saying this, as this has been my experience for years in bronze and iron. Don’t forget about support as bots and random smurfs too. I feel like at this ELO the trolls are doing so because the game is hard and frustrating or because of some perceived greivance that offended them. Trolling is a fun way to easily seize control of the outcome of the game even if it means losing.
Curtis looking swole! thanks for another amazing podcast fellas
Such a powerful message in this podcast.
Thanks for all the effort you guys put in.
Also, 100k points, is nothing...
There's massive difference between 100k, 500k and 1m.., massive...
On 100k you barely know rotations and know how to use ur stuff and maybe have some rune setups and builds, you're just scratching surface of the game and champ.
It's 500k and higher you are getting into actual details.
I love what also said Curtis about champion master tier about the pocket pick Qiyana.
I'm Azir player with over 1m points and after recent Azir rework, i'm literally learning new champion...
on the bronze / iron border the troll games are 1 in 5 and bot games are 1 in 3 so it really is a strange place
30:00 Why would I care does he want to lose from champ select or after his 1st, 2nd, 5th death, after I took red buff as adc at 20 minutes? Result is always the same, mentally ill guy, usually on a freshly bought lvl30-50 account just trolled my game. He is a troll. He left the game, went afk in the fountain or just rage split pushed with intention to die again and again. He deserves an actual 14 days ban.
Answering your question. One of my accounts is in gold2-plat4 range. In the last 20 games I had 5 guys that trolled:
- Two left the game after going 0-2/0-3.
- One stated that me as an adc have no rights for a red buff at 20 minutes and I deserve to lose, so he let the opponent kill him a few times and then went afk in a fountain.
- Two guys smurfed insanely hard in the first 15 minutes, like challenger in low elo 1v9 level smurfing, they were fed out of their mind as a carry junglers. As someone who coaches I saw that they understand the game. I didn't even need to ping them. I'm crushing 3 stacked waves? They are there, 5 sec in advance, landing their Nidalee spears. Opposing jungler takes Rift? They know that without even looking and already started a drake to trade the objectives. If they are 3-0. they are already in the opponents jungle killing the opponent and getting away without dying. These players were really legit. I felt like I'm in a game with an actual challenger player tryharding out of his mind. And then they just refused to win...They didn't take any objectives, always ran away from their team, tried to go literally 1v4/1v5, basically did everything to lose the game. I checked their profiles and every game was the same: they got gigafed early game and then they just went onto a death spree into losing the game with score like 15-8 cuz their team obviously didn't know how to win. I think it's obvious that these guys intentionally tanking their rank, so they can stay in low elo on these accounts and smurf on people.
I learned to cope with this because I actually experience this issue in this elo for the last 3 years, but it doesn't make the situation right. You're living in a wonderful world where trolling is going 0-10. Most people live in a world where trolling means afk, leaving the game, actually running it down, often saying that he does it to punish other players in his team.
31:10 In the last 30 days? Maybe 1 or 2 games out of 70ish games I get a troll from champ select? (I play in blocks of 2 or 3, depends on my mood, time of day, how long/difficult those games+reviews were).
It's hard me to say because I don't mind dodging the hard trolls and there very few "true" trolls as of late in my experience. It's usually someone on my team or the enemy's rage quits because of a game situation, or there's like an off meta pick in the game like Karthus bot (not troll at all tbh as they pop off in my experience).
And even if I do get a hard troll, I just dodge and move on, or stop the queue if someone on my team dodges and wait for 5 mins.
Furthermore, I used to get "more" trolls, but I find there's a strong correlation to the time of day you play to how many trolls/poor quality games you get. Playing at 6pm when everyone comes home from school/work so the matchmaking has more people to pull from generally gets you the average joe who might be a bit tilted, but not straight up running your game down and generally belongs on the right team in terms of balance. Playing at 6am will get you very lopsided games and people who are sleep deprived and addicted to the game who are highly tilted by how poor quality the games are at the time.
Curtis got so obsessed with what that first specialist said he started putting words in his mouth and ran away with it. I couldn't get through this video because he kept bringing it back again and again like it's facts. Love your other videos, though. Great work, guys
I'm not sure if this is what is meant with cognitive flexibility, but whenever you lose an objective fight just barely, you can rely on your adc or whoever to ping the dragon as you respawn. But the enemy 1-2 surviving players had like 20 seconds to kill it, even if you have no vision on it you know it's about to die and there is no point in walking to bot river, yet it's what happens in virtually every game in gold and below.
I love how Curtis completely missed the point of what Dr K said and he just calls it bullshit when he has no idea what he's talking about
Oh, an episode featuring Dr. K! I'm already having a rough monday so seeing bbc upload is a treat
Mastery is such a good point. It’s just not really relevant. My second highest mastery is nunu because I played nunu for a while like 3 years ago when I was playing with friends, because I was the worst and no one wanted to play jungle and back then tank nunu was the best nunu by a decent bit, so I could just be a tank with an easy clear and gank. And play with friends without sucking.
I’m not good at nunu now, at least not as good as I am with like at least 5 other champs, but it’s my second highest mastery still. I still keep it as a pocket pick if I’m filled jungle (I play top now) since it’s not super complicated, but I’m by no means good with nunu, at least not compared to my toplane champs, even ones that aren’t my main 3.
When it comes to genuin trolls. I can only think of 2 in my 2000+ games. It's probably closer to around 5, but no one believes me when I tell them my experience. I don't know what people classify as trolls, but I can only think of 2.
chef nathan and curtis cooking that league sauce, of course we dig it . 20:10
PS :Tryndamere with tp is troll it's ghost flash sir , joke aside I'm top main and I love playin weak side. Because the pressure is not on me to carry to the nexus, you just have to minimize your loss, most of the time they try to force some dives and int their lead. Defending top 1v2 is the best feeling ever as a top laner. The tough games are the greatest's ones.
I think the point that may be missed in the beginning was that you're both right. The growth mindset is true, but some people's base is just good while others isn't.
you guys are a great podcast, I hope you know its a breath of fresh air.
The first segment of today's podcast is probably the greatest in the history of BBC. It should be part of the school curriculum for every year 7.
41:03 I’m so glad this was finally said. I’m only Masters 300 LP but I’ve wondered myself why some people can’t understand that people can genuinely just be having a bad game. I think a large majority of the player base is so skewed by the larger content creators who complain about their teammates and call other players shit because of things like that. When a large creator does this, their followers see this behavior as okay and it creates such a toxic culture. This is my biggest issue with League players. No one has empathy. No one has the ability to see past someone’s KDA and wonder “why” or ask if they need help. They just bitch and moan and want to instantly report.
Another killing episode", thanks guys so much for doing this podcast!
It is clear that you don't understand what a troll is. Trynda in your example isnt trolling and if you look top and he takes plates, at leas you know he is trying. Lots of people would just sit under their tower while their top runs rampage on the rift lol.
In lower ranks, people stop trying, sometimes after one death.
The "if i cant be the carry, nobody can" mentality is extremely strong.
Trolls make your game had, for their enjoyment, there is a big difference there.
They die once and then start thinking hmmm ... Whats a fun build i can do. Or they swap lanes without asking etc etc.
It's funny how it hits Curtis about the cognitive flexibility... I was with friends and i brought up that talent is bullshit and if you work hard you can pretty be top 0,1% in anything.. But friends brought me some insight.. there is clearly some people with genetic abilities to be insane at something. Now i just think that's the difference between being very good at something VS top 100 in the world.
Best exemple would be Magnus Carlsen in chess doing a tie against the world champion in chess at 13 years old. You need shiit ton of "talent" to be that person for sure.
Perfect thumbnail for something to listen to in my dodgetimer after a disco-Nunu lobby :D
I’d say as someone who’s been in almost every elo silver to plat I’d say 10 percent d4 specifically 15 and past that like 5 percent. The closer to diamond the bigger the egos the more likly someone is to carry over a emotion into the next champ select when something looks even slightly wrong.
I love your podcast was informed of it on reddit about a month ago and have listened since, your podcast helps aid the negative enviroment that is solo queue and keeps it about the individual. I do feel that most of the context is focused on mid and jg being that your both challengers in those roles, loved the Biopanther episode and it was so informative as a top laner, are there any coaches for top lane that does anything similar to your MLA program? Keep up the great work guys.
Im okay with someone having a bad day, the problem are the Ap Irelia supports, Xin Zhao ap supports, people saying "game is too easy" and not do anything but take jungle camps all game as an adc...
Think theres differences xD
The part about the "troll" that just had a bad day and is tilted is so relatable. I've been that person and I've flamed that person. I need to just turn off chat so I don't get tilted and I don't flame someone who actually wants to win that's just having a bad game.
tbh, if someone says they will troll in champ select I dodge. But I can’t remember the last time I had someone intentionally wanting to lose from the first minute. it’s 1/100 games tops for me. and even if there is a case, I usually still get to play the first few minutes of my lane and get to play some trades and waves. so the game is very rarely 100% without learning.
6:25 you're misinterpreting it, it isn't biological. it is definitely something you have to work through, but you cannot work through it if you arent aware it is happening, effectively making it impossible
I played 300 games this season and by Nathan's definition I genuinely had 0 trolls
True, I have NEVER run into an "actual" troll in my low elo games, outside of the occasional bot.
me aswell never actual trolls
I mean the guy didn't say you couldn't train your brain to adapt?
Best part of my week every week letsgooooo!!!!
When I think of "trolling" in my games, it's true what you guys say: It's pretty rare for me to go into a game with someone who soft ints from the very beginning and is trying to lose the game. What I think is much more common are people who get tilted and then start spamming surrender and soft inting and rage splitting. People with a bad mental game will get tilted and give up. The worst ones are the ones who are personally playing poorly, but the rest of the team can carry. They will do everything they can to sabotage the game. For me, this is pretty common. Maybe like 10-20% of my games have someone who gives up.
Cognitive flexibility is a mental muscle you can build.
One thing I don't understand (and I'm pretty bad, Bronze II, 0 LP). I gain 21 and lose 28. At a 55% win rate I demote, at 60% I get to Bronze I after 71 games? I have to win at a 70% rate to get to 16 games to promote from Bronze II to Bronze I. The MMR hidden factor seems to turn into a self fulfilling prophecy based on some unknown algorithm rather than actual game performances and that's super frustrating. Seeing streamers constantly creating new accounts to avoid this seems to reinforce this concept that ranked is just broken and the people saying just win more than you lose are either liars or just misinformed.
1:40:00
Why not play supports mid?
Zill, karma, lulu, seraphine,..' it isnt that weird, and if the exp gaps bither him, well... Here is your answer
Agree that players who enter champ select with the intent to lose the game are incredibly rare. And the Tryndamere example you gave happens quite often and the player is flamed/labeled an inter even though a 5 minute VOD review shows what really happened.
However, I didn’t hear any mention of a player (let’s say the Tryndamere who already had a bad day) who gets ganked, dies twice and then decides he is going to troll. In my opinion this/soft inting happens much more often and is still trolling.
As a new player of league, I started playing because I watched Arcane.
I just got perma banned last week, and straight up, if I come back I will be trolling. I'll never give the game competitive attention again.
I worked on my account, low elo jungle; watched videos and got better. I had skins, champions unlocked. I played roughly 100-130 games a month. I legitimately played the game.
And as a jungler in low elo, learning how to play the game...I got banned atleast once a month. Reported every single game by somebody, flamed every single game. And banned for 2 weeks maybe 5 times.
If I have a bad game, just a simple bad game, I know I'm getting banned. It's automatic. If I get cheese invaded, spam invaded, 0-5 by 15; I know my team will not FF, the game will go 45 minutes.
And I know I'm going to be 0-20 by the end of it. There's nothing I can do.
On a wierd one off bad game, I know 100% I'm getting banned..
And I'm perma banned now on the account I worked really hard on. Because I got 0-3 invaded and it was the 5th game in a row, so I'd had enough and just ran it down. 0-39 in a gane that should've been 15'd.
But I can't afk, can't just sit it out, but I also can't actually play. And I'd had enough.
100 games a month, 700 games this season, one bad game, perma banned.
So 100% if I buy one of those $3 lvl 30 accounts, I'm there for trolling.
The reports and bans are bullshit
Sorry to hear this man. As someone who consistently plays in the BS of low elo, your skill will get better and you will start to see improvement if you stay mentally tough and keep focusing on improving rather than wins and losses.
@nathanrodriguez5891 I just quit and moved on bro. I had around 1500 games played last season, and about 750 this season.
I played Talon because I thought he looked cool, I was a 32% winrate iron 3 talon jungle.
Watched a bunch of UA-cam, was told to learn and stick to a champ to get good. Finally gave up on Talon after around 350 games.
Picked up shyvana, 73% winrate and was climbing got to silver 4 before season end.
Played nocturne and shyvana.
Did preseason promos and won 8/10 games; it placed me in iron 2 and the climb began again.
This was the last straw for me and league, flamed every game, shit talked and reported every game, constant 2 week bans simply because I was bad at the game or had a bad game. But when they perma banned my account; I'm done never again. 72% winrate climbing nocturne, worked to unlock all champs with blue crystals, had some cool skins on shyvana and nocturne. And the reporting Finally got me perma banned.
I'll never play again.
I've never seen such an entitled community of babies in any game I've played, I'm not surprised in the slightest that its dieing in NA. They're killing themselves
You guys should collab with Dr. K! Would totally love to see that.
Also, there are fixed an immutable things about us, but that doesn't mean they determine even the majority of who we are. We all have the power to take control of our lives and strive for what we value. It's one of the fundamental struggles of life, and one worth contending with.,
Obiously agree that having a bad game isn't trolling, but you don't need to int to be a troll. It's all well and good that muting exists, but I do expect at least some level of punishment for people that mald in the chat and further tilt out the rest of the team. Not necessarily a ban, but just something to help them understand that they need to approach ranked with a level head. This, of course, in conjunction with punishments for the jerks that berate them and send them into spirals as well. Culturally in low ELO it's pretty clear that the term "int" has a double meaning and has made reporting real trolls that stroll down mid into enemy towers borderline useless. I imagine a decent portion of players conflate "inting" with unintentional deaths to bad calls or poor judgement. One of my least favorite terms to come to prominence since starting in beta and then coming back after 6 or 7 years.
Ngl I still enjoy the dank videos. A classic Pants are dragons video with 1million speed jhin lol ❤ 28:00
Curtis looks like he does reps with his team when he's carrying his games
What about the person who first time a champ on mid elo game and for "some reason" ends up 0/15? I get few of those on my games
I believe the amount of trolls definitely increases the lower the elo you go.
I usually sit in bronze and silver and face not only trolls but also bots a lot in bronze way more then 1-4 out of a hundred games. Don't think I have ever played 100 ranked games a season and can think of numerous players who have trolled from champ select. It usually stems from people who are auto filled and get pissed when no one switches with them, and then I think we have a lot of Smurf accounts just come in and cause mayhem.
In terms of what makes an "actual" troll, I find that those are very rare. I find that a different type of "troll" is more common: someone who is tilted by their last game and wants to "pay it forward" by first-timing a champ or off-roling ("my jungler last game was shit so im gonna first time jungle"). They aren't actively trying to lose, but they don't care if they win + don't have the level of play that got them to this rank.
They arent that rare. I troll whenever i see some hardcore offmeta pick in my team. Last game the toplaner picked ezreal so i instalocked disco nunu. I also like playing double jungle ivern adc. I always warn my teammates in advance so if they dont dodge its their fault. Riot ruined dodging so trolling is far more effective from a time spent viewpoint. I can wait 12 HOURS to play after my 3rd dodge of the day or i can troll and we ff15, sometimes earlier if someone goes afk. Anonymous champ select also empowered the trolls because you cant look them up before game. Ive probably trolled 150 or so games out of the 400 i have played this season. Never got punished.
@@666Kaca yea turns out trolls are much less rare if you're one of them LOL. This is like a onetrick being like "my champ has 100% pick/ban presence in MY games"
For people who don't troll, coming across a real troll is much rarer. Off meta nonsense like ezreal top is like... bad but often carryable.
True, I have NEVER run into an "actual" troll in my low elo games, outside of the occasional bot.
@@fortcolors9887 i keep a "ranked diary" notepad docu where i write down the outcomes of every game with additional notes for context. After looking into it, i can say that on average 2/10 games i have a troll, this doesnt mean a bad player, it means a person who literally states in champ select/ingame chat "now i troll/now we lose" and runs it down/refuses to group/sabotages the team with bard R/goes full ap samira. So in 400 games i was trolled 80 times, i wouldnt call that rare. This season is by far THE worst ranked experience in 12 years of me playing league
@@666Kaca I'm sure you do. I'm equally certain, based on your previous comment, that in at least half those games the trolling player who said in champ select they don't intend to win is... you
btw, the working definition of a troll is not including people who get tilted by in-game events. If enemy top gets a double kill off an invade before minions spawn so your top says "gg" and runs it? That's not a troll, that's someone who's frustrated by not being able to lane.
My biggest issue with League isnt the ‘1% genuine troll’, its the afking. Its been the worst ive seen this season, and its made me want to quit. I thought it was going to tone down after preseason, but no. Its like atleast 20% of games, thats a lot! I think you guys may forget that the higher rank you are, the less afks and trolling, not saying theres none. But the higher rank you are, the more likely youre playing with people who take the game seriously and know how to improve. Through your process, Ive gotten a lot better at letting go of those games with an afk teammate, but when you get days in a row of having an afk teammate it can be so demoralizing. When one person in a 10 person game throws the whole result by leaving, its so tilting. On top of this, its been hard for me to actually consistently get Mid this season. It feels like I end up playing Support as much as mid 😂 So it can make me want to quit when theres spikes of unfortunate things outside my control, and my rank is judged on that. I keep telling myself, “just get to Plat! Itll be better!” but idk. Been losing motivation
One thing Curtis is using his coaching base as a control which is very flawed because they must already have a level of cogitative flexibility too seek a coach. the truly inflexible are like Neace and no matter how much you try their mind is made up and they are right no matter the proof. They can review their game and see nothing new because they knew what happened and they cant even change their mind when they think they are being analytical, your video about Neace is essentially a proof of DR.k's point and proof not everyone can learn not to be flexable.
Regarding the SoloQ Troll, the example you gave is fair while I would like to think I would not really blame the trynd in that situation but then as a bot/supp player, this is the kinda situation that would absolutely blow my mental apart since a fed top then gets to do whatever he wants around the map blowing up all the squishies while taking everyone out like Thanos.
I think however your definition of a Troll is still too strict. What I would consider a real troll (after the game ends and I have time to reset mental) is for sure someone who decides as soon as the get in champ select or even after the draft that they just dont want the team to win and runs it down with no intention of winning. However I would also say someone in a more fair situation, they got the champ they wanted to play, they got the swap they wanted in champ sel, their matchup isnt doomed or great, but they die once or see something happen across the map not even in their lane (like enemy jungle getting a double on an invade) and decide at that moment that they arent going to be playing the game seriously when the game is completely recoverable.
Repeated misplays might get me mad during the game but the people that really stay in my mind as a true troll is someone who decides to grief the game for all 4 of their teammates over something small happening that may or may not be in their control. This could be wasting summoners (flashing in place), itemizing completely wrong (kraken slayer yuumi levels of wrong), opening their lane while leaching exp from another lane (while not contributing anything to that lane) or even just dying on cooldown to one or more of the enemy players. As someone in what I consider low elo (Gold 1-3), this is like 15-20% of my games and I am not sure if this is just a Gold thing because I play on a Bronze account to try other roles or champs but games with this definition of a troll are like maybe 10% and people are just more mentally stable.
Just a thing here in the beggining, I did not see the soctor say that you canot develop the cognitive flexibility, maybe he doesnt mean that you can't, just at the moment they tested it, some people have more and some have less, for whatever reason, which could be that some developed it and some didn't as much
Any idea when the next MLA opening is? Havent been able to listen to many of the recent podcasts unfortunately
Question to AI: Is cognitive flexibility a skill that can be developed?
Answer: Yes, cognitive flexibility is a skill that can be developed. It refers to the ability to adapt and change one's thinking or approach in response to different situations or tasks. There are various exercises, activities, and strategies that can help improve cognitive flexibility, such as trying new experiences, engaging in problem-solving tasks, and practicing mindfulness. It's important to note that like any skill, it may take time and consistent effort to see improvement.
I’m currently Platinum 2 and climbed from Silver 2 this season. In the 100 games I’ve played ranked solo queue this season I honestly don’t think I’ve gotten a single serious troll. Yes I’ve had a few games where teammates afk after a few deaths or failed plays but they weren’t decided from the start that they were gonna run it down. At least it wasn’t obvious! From my experience it is not super common, but I will say the afk/leaver/griefers are pretty common. I may have had like 3-4 games out of my 100 where teammates just afk dc and move on
Let's be honest, most trolls on LOL are actually griefers and team mates that give up. Most of the time the games starts well and, after certain events, teammates can start to grief or give up. That's the most common case of annoyance in the game. Now, we can debate if griefing and trolling are the same thing. In my understanding, trolling is done to for pure enjoyment and doesn't necessarily cause harm, griefing on the other hand is a proper toxic behaviour to limit the enjoyment of other players.
Even with these definitions, most LOL players actually give up more than troll/grief. They don't want to play that game anymore because it feels pointless to play. That is in my opinion the most common cause of toxicity in the game, the idea that there's nothing to do anymore, should just move on, spin the lucky wheel and hope that next time it will be better.
haven't played that much of league ranked, but if it's 1-5%, it's still less than in dota, where from my exp it would be 15-20% if we count both teams, not just mine
My god guys! Seems like you have same YT recommendations as I do. I've recently looked up cognitive flexibility and was going to email u about this, and here we are at the same day you release a podcast about it LMAO. This is insane coincidence! Thank you for your job bois!
I like this defintion more:
Cognitive flexibility is an intrinsic property of a cognitive system often associated with the mental ability to adjust its activity and content, switch between different task rules and corresponding behavioral responses, maintain multiple concepts simultaneously and shift internal attention between them
MAINTAIN MULTIPLE CONCEPTS SIMULTANEOUSLY!
This is huge. THat's why this term correlates with rank in league.
I started to sympathise with my team when I started to wath replays. It is many times just one small mistake. I am in iron and I can see most try to lose gracefully and be useful. But without replays I wouldn't see it
Guys, correlation and causation are not the same.
When he says cognitive flexibility is correlated with high rank, it doesn't tell us anything about the direction of that relationship.
Odds are that you develop high cognitive flexibility by learning league, which would correlate the two.
Actual trolls are very rare, smurfs/elo boosters are more common and they are rare also. I dunno if it's still the case, but bots were very common in low Bronze games which seemed kinda bad (I started playing lol again after a few years and my account had soft reset down to iron1. Was pretty frustrating getting out of bot hell). By far it's just people that get easily tilted by in game events and give up. Having a bad game isn't trolling, we all have those 0-7 games from time to time. But losing a dragon fight, selling all your items and going afk is something that should get you a weeks enforced holiday from lol...
6:20 I don't think he meant some people can be cognitively flexible and some can't ever, I think he meant many people can't with their current mental and emotional states
Very impressive for you guys to completely misunderstand the Dr. K clip the same way Joe Rogan obviously misunderstood his doctor.
Everyone CAN be flexible both physically and mentally, but it isn't a skill that everyone is actively working on improving. That's all that's being said.
Yes anyone /can/ just do the splits but some people can do it without training themselves to do so. Yes everyone /can/ be cognitively flexible at any activity they pursue, but not everyone will naturally be working to improve, have the interest to improve and some folks will bave to put more work into changing their mentality to be able to be as flexible.
That troll definition is also way too strict just so you can make a good point poorly. If someone joins in, fucks up and decides to run it down oe argue with someone until they run it down, that's a troll/int game. I don't care if they queued up wanting to win because they decided while the game state was absolutely winnable to intentionally stop themselves from winning.
In terms of frequency I can go days without encountering one and then have a day where half of my games are inted pre-10 minutes.
4-5% sounds spot on, but I would absolutely include people who give up after one or two deaths into the troll category. People who at any point in the game stop even trying their bare minimum are trolls no question about it
Hate to be a bearer of bad news. But the real part you seem to be mistaken is, teammates DO matter. The "adaptive mindset" is mostly adapting to what you know in your region works, what doesn't, and most importantly, what causes your teammates to tilt so hard they will int it down early so you can't scale/carry. In my region, NA, south, no mages are allowed bot lane. No support lee sins/anivias etc. People will actively tell you to unalive yourself before the game begins. If you don't play THEIR meta, the games over before it starts. Abusing pregame mechanics like dodges/porofessor etc 3rd party abusive aps. "adapting". Etc.
Its a team game, you NEED a team. You cannot always tilt them before the game starts. The BEST champions per role don't matter. Its the one that wins you the most. Not because YOU play it well, but because your team accepts it, plays around it, and lets you carry/help them. Lee sin has the highest basic shield. It hits 2 people. It has the lowest cd. its great. 0/99 adc. it happens.
You know what i always say. One person's troll is another person's learning the game or just having a bad game/off day.
Though nothing is more tilting than losing or dying to a Soraka Top that then flashes Mastery 7 emote especially with the eternal thingies above it. Now take that to low elo and you have a recipe for tilting the ever living hell out of the enemies especially those that were supposed to counter the champion such as Tryndamere Top, kill him once flash Mastery 7 and suddenly he tunnels vision on killing you so you just kill him over and over even under your own tower as he ults way to early.
But still that is a bad or newer player learning the game that now looks like a inter by losing to what is supposed to bea Support that is actually building support items. Also i did it past patch 10.4 when Soraka was at her worst as I am a good Soraka player in general and a ok top laner so i know how to tether a bit and keep safe while tilting the enemies
Though stuff like Morde, Darius, and Garen that Soraka Top hard counters and those types of matchups made it look still strong at the time, as realistically they should have no possible way of dealing with a Soraka without their jungler's help, and even then who would try and gank a enemy Soraka Top? they would just be wasting their time as obviously the river is giga warded to hell and back as the cockroach er i mean Soraka don't wanna die. And all she does is farm for her items and then perma roam and help the team maybe even snowballing them to victory
Funny thing is not even Tank players wanna play Soraka Top as according to them it is too uninteractive for them which is ironic. But using Magic the Gathering Terms Soraka is a Bant champion as in Blue White Green color combination so in the hands of the right player it's too oppressive no matter what
i think the doctor meant in that moment youre flexible or no,t and i think the doctor joe rogan saw meant some people are naturally more flexible just like how some people are naturally quicker sprinters
in iron id say 33% of games has a troll on one side
great episode
I disagree with the never say sorry in your games mindset. I personally like when people understand that they aren’t playing their best and admit to it. I think this IS owning up to your shortcoming as long as you are coming at it with the right attitude. And “just accepting your flame” can also be tied in with apologies. Maybe they get the flame and think “you know what, that person is right, my b on this game, I’ll work on it” that can be a really positive mindset to have and is a thousand times better than them not accepting their flame, fighting back, and missing their shortcomings all together.
Just a quick thought on that since I heard it and cringed a little.
I think surely we could agree games where someone goes afk after a death or X amount of deaths counts as a troll right?
Because really the implication of a “troll” is the idea that the game is a loss truly out of your control, and a 4v5 despite having seen it being won a handful of times in my life is pretty much a guaranteed loss
17:23 I died 😂
Curtis no openings this month?
Here's the thing in low elo. You turn on pc to start playing tou que up for game 1 u get a win. Que up again you lose not a bad loss just you lose. Que up again you get rolled hard loss x lane fed game over. Que up again you get trolled another loss. Now tour 3 or 4 hours in with a loosing record now your pissed your mood is horrible now you start to troll. You Que into a game lock in some champ you never played and now you start to do to others what they did to you. That's how low elo works.
I'm pretty sure some cognitive abilities cannot be improved alot. Like reflexes, as a tryndame main I'm still too slow to ult even after 1mil points, even when trying to survive a garen ult which apparently is very slow according to guides
Re:cognitive disability, I don’t think Dr K was at all implying that cognitive flexibility is something that can’t be improved; his entire job as a psychiatrist is helping people see how they can change their brain patterns. Also he’s mentioned before that he worked with a coach in dota and improved massively.
With the trolling issue there would statistically be more “trolls” in low elo due to low cognitive flexibility and poor attitudes keeping them in low elo. These players could also assign their low rank to others (bad teammates), so at the slightest inconvienience they decide to troll the game for the team. Also the lower the elo is there is the possibility that there are players who intentionally derank an account to sell it as an “iron/bronze” account for smurfs to make a “iron to challenger” video series on stream or youtube. I just had 2 players who duo together and lose game together with random keyboard conffetti names ran it down to make us lose and have a whopping 0-19 record together.
It did irk me how Curtis doesn't even consider that the experts opinion could have some validity, and working around that opinion to formulate something that's both nuanced yet doesn't completely disregard and challenge the facts.
My take on it with ur comparison to joe Rogan… people can be naturally more flexible or in this case people can be naturally more cognitively flexible with out practice but It’s not to say u can’t be flexible ever or cognitively flexible you just have to train ur body or brain respectively
Genuine trolls are rare. But too often ppl NEED to be the main character in an anime. People refuse to get carried.
This happens all the time and is one reason I climbed a bit higher than my strict "skill level" as such.
When my team basically auto wins and I'm behind, I enable them and enjoy the freelo.
My tristana is 6 and 0 and my hecarim is 2k ahead? I'm 0 2 in lane and down half an item? Cool. I'll ensure Heca always gets support and protect that trist. Freelo.
What too many other players do instead is this: They feel bad about being the only player who is behind on their team. They then try to also win hard to "fit in" and make it impossible for their team to close out because they keep dying.
My heart is already bleeding halfway through the Jimbob story! Curtis should write a bedtime horror story book for league players
I muck around in low mmr for fun. Maybe im a troll because ive actively deranked, but honestly at least 1 in 4 games i dont have to do anything and people on my team will grief. Bronze and iron is full of trolls. Its not even cope. Its just reality.
JimBob is not a troll but JimBob is also not realistic.
What is realistic is JimBob just had a bad game where he got counterpicked and ended up losing. No one in that game noticed anything abnormal about his behavior. But JimBob is fuming; he's completely stuck in the "if only my last pick had swapped with me then none of this would have happened". JimBob queues up again, he's first pick again. Nobody swaps with him again. At this point JimBob checks out. He's just seen this literally minutes ago, he KNOWS he's going to go 1/9 again before he's even locked his champion. So what's the point? Why try? Might as well just pick blitzcrank top and roam around making some silly plays. That sounds way, WAY more fun than just getting shitstomped in lane again. So that's what he does.
Now is this JimBob a troll?
Most people would say yes and want a legitimate ban. The second people perceive you as not trying to win they don't want you in the game. League is not a place for fun. League is a place to pour your blood, sweat, and tears until you have nothing left. Either you enjoy that pain or it slowly wears down on you until you become one of the trolls you were complaining about.
JimBob has a weak mindset.
I swear since I've reached plat the amount of trolls and negative experiences I had in league is just insane idk I hope this is just a few unlucky day but people just pissed all day and have a general bad mood idk whats going on atm
I'm sure you guys will cover it individually....but would you mind doing a BBC Exclusive video about 13.10? SPECIFICALLY the minion changes...because it's going to seriously change the macro level of the game for the first 14 minutes.
Also, Curtis, about Cognitive Flexiblity...I recommend you really think about all of the people you've coached. How many of them were stuck because of their rigid thinking about how the game works? Because of their narratives that they couldn't let go of? Consider that your method of coaching, and teaching people to actively think about the game, is actually training people to be cognitively flexible. Now consider how many of those people never would have developed those skills if it weren't for you teaching them to think more critically about the game. That's what Dr. K is talking about. It's more of a skill than a biological factor. The brain is a muscle, and just like any other muscle you can train it to do things better. (PS: Rewatch the clip, particularly the very end. "We're not cognitively flexible about why we win or lose. We don't think about it critically.")
I think Dr. K is right. The reason people like you are Challenger is because you think that way intuitively. The reason most people aren't climbing is because they don't think that way intuitively, and they tend become more rigid in thoughts as they get older, and that's when they start to form those narratives and find external sources to blame, because in their minds they already know everything about the game and how to play it, so it must be some external thing that is holding them back. (You can also find psychological studies about how people get stuck in negative thought patterns etc too, seems congruent with your tangent about neuron rigidity and habits. Also, the trail metaphor is a perfect example of how and why your VOD review method works.)
I wrote most of this halfway through your comments on the topic. I think you had a solid grasp on it by the end of your thinking/speech about it, but you seemed a little iffy at first so I wanted to talk about it and put it in other words for both you and other viewers. It may be easier to imagine that Cognitive Flexibility and Critical Thinking are the same thing. The tl:dr is, it's fixable...but most people can't fix it on their own. People with body oder could just wear deoderant, but why would they if they don't know they stink? Some people just need people like you to tell them that they stink in order to know that they need deorderant.
I think at the end of the day, you and Dr. K are actually on the same page. It would be awesome if you could do a show with him. If you were to elaborate and discuss with him I think you would find that your view is quite congruent with the science he's talking about.
Cheers mate. Great episode. I wish I could sit down with you and discuss these kinds of things myself.
PS: Troll topic is difficult. I think a lot of people intentionally lose games AFTER they get into the game because they get angry about someone on their team typing to them, failed jungle gank, someone didn't rotate when they think they should have, etc. I legitimately see that happen in like ~10%-15%, maybe more, but I also believe that's an almost strictly NA issue...Even Broxah has said it, players in NA just don't want to win for some reason. Actual from champ select trolls? Definitely much lower, but I still see people "troll pick" because someone on their team didn't role swap with them when they got autofilled etc. It's actually a very common thing for people to pick random crap in an attempt to convince someone else on the team to dodge. Okay, hyperolic maybe. Maybe ~5% isn't "Very common", but I would argue that anything above 0.5% for this kind of thing is too much.
PPS: That guys OPGG is a literal work of art. That man is the Jackson Pollock of League.
Citing Joe Rogan as basis for an opinion instead of listening to Dr. K who went to school for the subject is wild.
I don't know if you know this, but Neace made a video similar to his cookielol vid bad mouthing your neace vid. He got shit on in the comments because he said he didn't even watch your video. He ended up deleting his video.