VCR vs. Reel to Reel for Recording Music | Can you tell the difference?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- well... it's crazy to think, it's crazy to say, but according to GenXers most VCRs actually are capable of extremely hi-fi stereo recordings. here we show why that might be useful.
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Hey y'all! I'm first and foremost a musician, but I try to present technical information as accurately as possible without over-extending my knowledge. In other words, I don't like bulls**ting. If you're interested in the technical aspects of VHS audio, this article clears up older versions of VHS vs. Hi-Fi stereo VHS (my machine):
www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/793700/TT190%20-%204626.pdf
✌️📼🎼
Hey y'all again! There has been a lot of back and forth in the comments section of this video and confusion about an older format of VHS sound and the embedded hifi audio that became standard and commonplace by the time I was a little kid.
Luckily for me, my video stands correct when it comes to the spinning head utilizing audio heads as well. This excerpt comes from a forensic science article from 2006...you know, people who have to study tapes as evidence in criminal cases:
"The hi-fi, or frequency-modulation (FM), audio stereo heads are located on the helical-scan drum, often 60 degrees out of phase with the video heads. The hi-fi audio is recorded during the 0.0334-second time period just prior to, but in the same tape location as, the corresponding video information. To allow differentiation of the audio and video signals and to avoid complete erasure of the audio track by the subsequent overlying video track, the signals have different azimuth angles and track widths and record at different tape depths. The video head partially erases the hi-fi audio, usually dropping its amplitude about 12 decibels (dB). The two channels of stereo audio are recorded with different FM carrier frequencies for better record and playback characteristics. Because of the recording methods, the signal-to-noise ratio, frequency response, and other specifications are always better for hi-fi than linear audio. Hi-fi audio quality is virtually the same at both SP and EP speeds; however, not all VCRs have hi-fi audio capability (Beeching 2001; IEC 1999; Trundle 1999)."
www.experts.com/articles/video-and-audio-characteristics-in-vhs-overrecordings-by-bruce-e-koenig
or if you wanna watch a rad video from 1984, check out this one-minute gem:
ua-cam.com/video/IF_rTTptah0/v-deo.html
Talk about shitty and unwatchable editing. But even without that, it's direct ripoff of Cassette Comeback's video, "Hi-Fi VHS - The Poor Man's Reel To Reel". Stealing content because you don't have the imagination to create your own.
ua-cam.com/video/lunkqR2lDag/v-deo.html
@@guessundheit6494 Hi Guess! I appreciate your feedback and the time you took to watch and comment here.
I love that video you posted and that content creator Cassette Comeback...
...so much that I had put a link to it in the description already. Let me know if you're ever interested in beginning to create content on your channel and I'd love to talk about imagination, originality and producing.
Of course, you may have another channel that i'm not aware of! Peace, and have a beautiful day 🙏✌️
Hi, I've got a question. What was your gain staging or process for recording into VHS? I have the same VCR as the one in your video but my signal is way to high and clips and distorts, even with the master volume at really low on DAW.
I'm wondering how you got yours to sound so normal.
Oh my gosh I just found my favourite UA-cam channel in the WORLD
that means a lot thank you!
it still surprises me of the production quality of this channel even with only 500 subscribers. I look forward to watching every episode that comes out. Keep it up mate.
appreciate the kind words! i’m looking forward to building a community 🤘
@@MadeOnTapeYou already have a community !
i am truly humbled and totally forgot this video was made with about 500 subscribers...i'm always learning and hope that sharing/showing that process is helpful@@DarkTrapStudio
@@MadeOnTape500 subscriber is a big community, it just depend on the quality :) The comparaison was great thanks
The VHS has a surprisingly tasteful low end bump.
When we played live, I would record all the audio off the board into a VHS tape. 2 hours of audio on one tape! The frequency response of a HiFi VCR, is really good!
I've gotten excellent results from a Panasonic Omnivision Hi-Fi VCR.
Suddenly, goodwill/salvation army stores and pawn shops, across the globe, are being emptied of VHS technology.
Great video, man!
Thank you for what you do.
Stay analog AND analogical, my friend...
analogical! love that, thank you!
The VCR most likely has auto gain control (AGC) which is why you hear more hiss, since it’s pumping up the gain on the lower levels. If you added more gain ahead of the VCR, like you suggested in the video, that would just effectively compress your recording.
yes! thank you for sharing!
Older video recorders also had level adjustment for audio. I have a working,, although ancient recorder that also, when a number of tracks were recorded on it, you could search them using the blank space between them...
I STILL have the same setup, Porta-One and VHS Hi-Fi in my stable, occasionally use for grins instead of my HD24 and Audacity for mixdown. Since 1990.
That song is a bop. The claps go a little off beat thoughout but I thought it was groovy!
thank you for watching and listening!
Hey, man.
This is a great channel!
hey thank you so much! 🙏🤘
I have so much love for this channel! I'm gonna dig out the vhs tomorrow haha
thanks for being a part of a budding community! 🙏
Very cool video. I would be really interested to see a mix done all in the box that is clean and digital and then sent through the VCR to see if it gives it any of that nice tape warmth.
definitely have more plans for the VCR! thanks for watching!
lovely irony that yr VHS deck is badged 'sony'....
this technique of recording stereo FM audio in the vertical guard-band was also used in betacam SP decks from around 1989 to 1993, when digibeta first came along.
btw, I called the teac, but couldn't tell the other two apart. most of the noise seemed to be on the original multi.
Yes, the SVHS Hifi machines work great for audio! Love them.
"That thing has value to weird musicians!" ROFL!!!
🙏🏻🙌🏻😂
I liked the vcr honestly
Use to use a PcM converter into VHS tape for earlier than DAT digital masters.
This is so cool…I have never even thought about recording sound into a VCR…I am in my mid 50’s,so I remember VCR’s very well…I had a HiFi VCR that sounded amazing back in the 80’s…but that was pre digital anything…except watches and calculators….I didn’t know you could just send audio into it….I may dig mine out and give it a shot….Absolutely great video..just found your channel by accident..I am subscribed now..I gotta see more..
thank you for sharing! Happy recording!
VHS, Beta, 8-tracks, and reel to reels make excellent recording devices - and sound better than early CDs. I just inherited several DVD/VHS combo sets from my Uncle who recently passed and the family gifted me my pick of the electronics because I'm a stereo buff. I also inherited a vintage Pioneer SA-9100 integrated amp (60W, ~30lbs with wood side cabinetry!!!), a TX-6200 tuner (same wood panels), and a Garrard turntable (I gave that to my cousin). These vintage pieces still fetch a few hundred dollars apiece today.....
ohhh nice inheritance! can’t beat the vibe of some older stuff
dang these beats are funky
yo thank you!
I just found your channel and I’m absolutely hooked
that’s very kind of you thank you. let me know if there’s any topic you’d like to see covered on the channel!
I agree with you about the quality of Hi-Fi VHS sound. I used to use it for audio recording way back in the 90's when DAT was still a bit out of reach for the casual home studio and recording straight to PC wasn't practical since a "top of the line" PC back then only had 8megs (not gigs) of ram and a "huge" harddrive couldn't even hold an hour of PCM before it was full.
But this "test" is kinda bullshit. On UA-cam nobody is going to be able to hear any differences in quality when all we get on this end (the viewer's end) is 128k compressed audio. We can't hear a difference because there is no difference. All three were 128k compressed on the viewer's end. A trained ear can hear the FM used in VHS audio. But not when it's compressed to 128k.
you get it, tho! appreciate your comment: have a beautiful day ✌️
I've heard tons of audio comparisons between VHS, multitrack cassettes, USB interfaces, reel-to-reel machines, and so on and I literally can never tell the difference between any of them. Maybe it's just because UA-cam audio is downgraded to 128 kbps, but in my humble opinion it doesn't really matter what medium you record to because they all sound the same. So, do which ever one is more fun or more practical for you!
this is the essence of my entire channel summarized ! love it and love your comment! 🙌🙏🤘
@@MadeOnTape 🥺🥺🥺🥺 thank you!!! 🥺🥺🥺🥺
Wrong info the revolving head intend video only theres a separated audio head beside that round head
They all sound great lol
Billy Joe; a 4 track Teac R2R deck canNOT compete with a hifi VCR (with higher/wider frequency response). Only a 2-track professional r2r machine can. Audiophile.
Nailed it.
That great. Thanks for the videos
thanks for watching!
I used to use a hifi VCR alongside 4 and 2 channel tape recorders in the 80s. My VCR was relatively rare in having manual record level and metering. Some VCRs were not hifi, because they used a low speed linear track. Mine offered a spec of 20 -20K and 90dB s/n.
manual record level and metering would be bomb
It's nice to discover this new twist, if perhaps a tiny one, among the pursuits of home audio enthusiasts. After all, analog open reel has long made an impressive comeback, at least among some well heeled audiophiles who can afford to restore and/or upgrade their machines and who afford the now very high priced tape stock. To some degree renewed interest in analog recording is understandable, at least for recording live sessions, since arguably the best sounding A/D conversion two channel electronics can cost upwards of $3500. Indeed, two track 1/4" open reel can sound very good even at least at 7.5 ips, more so if gain stages are dc coupled, low DA film caps are used for supply bypassing, et al. I've never heard (nor have much interest in) today's premium open reel designs but a shoot out between one or more (e.g. a recapped and well aligned Ampex ATR-102 1/4" OR a "tapelifterless" Studer deck) and, say, a Sony or Panasonic VHS Hi-Fi VCR. While signal electronics build quality may likely be far better even in these stock open reel decks (lower distortion percentages?) , the H-Fi VCR may have wider and flatter frequency response, higher signal/noise ratio and far lower wow and flutter. Even more impressive is that both recording speed and tape stock formulation costs will be a mere fraction of what plagues open reel tape enthusiasts. Only open reel have rapid and precise razor blade editing and variable pitch control. But I submit that IF advanced circuit designers, like those here www.diyaudio.com ever got serious about revamping the R/P electronics of Hi-Fi VCRs (especially those with superior transport design and build quality), the VCR would become the best sounding AND most affordable analog recording device. And for starters there's certainly no shortage of VHS blank media on where it's being all but given away at ebay, craigslist and countless garage sales-many tapes with low mileage and oxide shed. Go for it!
thanks for sharing and for listening!
Greg, I think you are correct. I wonder if such a device exists. Actually, for the record I thought VCR sounded best in this video anyway. Really great insight man, maybe someone has done it already and/or will!
yo signed in just to comment, anyhow here's my 2 cents, cause I guessed them all correctly.
keep in mind it could be lucky guess but here are the things that tipped me off:
1 / The computer: All around highest clarity and less artifacts , the swells on the right channel gave it away
2 / The Reel 2 Reel: The innate EQ curves due to the nature of the tape composition and recording/playback standarts cause it to have a shelf around mids/mid-highs (by todays standarts I assume [as in with the luxury of our contemporary technology as Hi-freqs would be more diffucult in the yesteryear to produce and distrubute] ) and their own characteristic saturation and compresssion.
3/ The VCR: Well kind of like the reel to reel with these differences, Higher speed = More high frequency content and the characteristic saturation / compression is different than that of the R2R.
Let me know what you think!
hey there! I think that's an excellent assessment. What i'm loving about the comments is that most people can easily tell which is the computer. Thanks for signing in and checking it out!
I thought the VCR would be 2, but at least on my monitors and headphones, the Teac was hissier. The "science" aproach is cool and very useful
thanks for watching! honestly when i listen back i can’t hear what i was talking about as easily. I think i meant to say more of the TASCAM hiss remained unaltered…
📼🎼🤘
@@MadeOnTape yesss. but its interesting how close the vhs and reel are. I have a TEAC like yours, but two channels, and i am planning to fix it (the control pannel doesnt work), but watching your videos i think, the sound quality is not much better than a cassette tape, maybe not better at all? i dont know
Good job. I've always wondered.
Not bad. It was clear to me from the beginning the source material but I wasn't sure about the other two.
The VCR in my simple setup (old laptop, old cheap headphones) shows a larger spectrum.
it’s definitely a fun thing to mess around with for very very cheap 🤘
I used to use the Alesis Digital Audio Tape (ADAT) which used Super VHS tapes to get 8 tracks. You could synchronise 16 machines to get 128 tracks. It was good fun. Alesis now use hard drives.
I did a record in 94 using 24 track ADATS... as long as they synched correctly it was great setup for the era..
C'est dingue !!!!! Il aura fallu attendre l'extinction de ce support qu'était la VHS et la distribution des magnétoscopes "HI-FI STEREO" pour que l'on comprenne qu'il était possible d'enregistrer du son en stéréo de qualité !!! Je sauvegardais déjà des enregistrements de CD's sur cassettes VHS en 1989!!!!
i had to put this into google translate cuz I'm a dumb monolingual! Thank you for watching and your nice comment!
I knew 3 was the VCR, it has that old school tape sound. 1 sounded flat and dry to me.
This channel is exactly what I needed, thank you!
that's very kind of you! 🙏
The tape machine sounds by far the best to me. I liked the VCR slightly more than the computer, but actually had some trouble telling it apart from the computer in the blind test.
I was also shocked how accurate the VCR could sound. There were a couple takes where there was an audible electronic interference sound in there, and that might just be buried in the music now...thanks for watching!
I have very good monitors...and a good room...but my ears must absolutely suck. A/Bing all of these, I hear almost no perceivable difference. And it seems, that from a listeners perspective, IF there is a perceivable difference, it's soooooo small that it certainly would seem far more trouble than worth to do any of this vs recording directly digital and avoiding the cumbersome process and expense of routing anything through the analog options.
I think this would be perceived better if each track was individually routed through the VCR or Reel-to-Reel. The summation of all the individual tape trackings would likely create some perceived difference even for the average listener.
Is it possible to get that warm tape saturated sound using vcr instead a reel to reel?
that's a great question! In short, not really. The VCR is very hi-def, almost like digital audio, so it doesn't impart any character to the sound like a Reel to Reel.
However, if you have a really old machine, they used to use linear mono audio. I'm sure something wacky could be done with that, but again, mono. thanks for watching!
Back in the 1990s I used HiFi Vhs to archive FM radio shows. Although the quality was excellent then, when I try to play them now the VCR struggles to find the HiFi track. It is strange that the image quality has not deteriorated but the HiFi track has. Now most of my recordings just get played via the linear track which sounds like am radio. Any ideas?
hmmm could it be the VCR itself? have you tried others?
@@MadeOnTape Yes I have. The Panny is probably the best with older tapes but my 2 JVC decks are about the same.
I have a LG RC897T VHS/DVD-RW combo unit and the sound is simply amazing. I don't even plug in a video source. It's not necessary. I record 6hr mix tapes of tidal on shuffle at a time.
it’s such low-hanging fruit for audio nerds!
@@MadeOnTape I stopped trying to find affordable working Dolby S decks after I realized how good the quality is.
i recently recorded an EP completely analog by bouncing single tracks between a dolby B/ type II cassette and a HiFI VHS tape. was a lot of fun, and basically had no hiss because of the NR and VCR. cool video! subscribed!
that sounds like fun! thanks for watching and the sub 🙏
Dang. I thought that the 3rd (VCR) sounded the best!
That VCR in particular does not have manual level inputs. So it tries to amplify quiter parts of the signal. There are VCRs with level input pots just like a tape machine and on those hi-fi vcrs it's the same as PCM 44 kHz 16 bit digitall as a matter o fact that's the way it is encrypted on hi-fi VCRs.
Since 1999 I used a HiFi DOLBY Stereo 6 head VHS vcr to record music from MTV type shows to listen to on VHS or to copy from the VHS tapes to audio cassette for near CD quality versions of the songs just from free to air tv!!! There was also a stand alone VHS recorder that ONLY recorded audio onto the tapes and could do so as DIGITAL!!!!!!! It used the entire width of the tape not the tiny bit that regular hifi stereo VHS tape uses so is FAR superior quality, in fact, you could get up to 7GB of raw .WAV quality audio recorded onto it no problem, you also could choose regular hifi stereo analogue audio as an extended length option (it is technically near-FM radio quality due to using the same frequency in transcoding the free to air tv transmissons into audio onto the tape!)
I was able to tell fairly quickly. Not having a level meter on the VCR is somewhat of a problem. If you knew you were sending a loud enough signal it would probably sound better than the reel to reel.
The flutter gave the reel to reel away and the tape hiss gave the vcr away.
Good channel and vibe.
much appreciated 🙏🤘
I frequently used my HiFi VCR to record audio only in the late 80's to early 90's. Yes, it did provide a great recording compared to my cassette deck. However after a few years, the tape started to mistrack (think static type lines watching video...which you would remedy by adjusting the tracking)..The tape would typically play one channel well with the other channel missing or filled with static. I could not correct this (via adjusting the tracking). So yes, you will get a great recording with the VCR but my experience was the tape would go bad after a while.
great word-to-the-wise! thanks for sharing!
I used to take my old VHS recorder to gigs I played over the last 30+ years, and get a line-out from the desk. As the mix was for the space, not the stereo mix it was pretty hit and miss, but was really good otherwise. I have about 80 vhs tapes that have the whole gig, usually arnd 3 sets on each.
awesome hack!
The noise floor was horrific with the reel to reel and the VCR was sort of between the reeler and the computer so it was pretty obvious. VCRs have a great technological advantage over reel to reels, though this could be compensated with a compander and running 15ips..or if youre a maniac 30ips and a compander and you dont have a chance of distinguishing it from a computer
thanks for watching! Yes, there's a lot more to explore in detail here. I love your 30ips maniacal comment 🤣
@@MadeOnTape IT IS A MANIACAL THING...I mean 30IPS???? damn thats a lot of tape realestate not to mention the utter crap bass response at those speeds xD. I have myself gone with a 7 1/2 IPS setup on a half track and its more than sufficient for mastering. I have mastered a few unreleased songs to my quarter track stereo machine before the mods and its still great at 7 1/2ips .
The deal with poor bass response at 15ips and above is the wavelenght recorded onto tape is far too wide to be reproduced in any meaningfull amplitudes for the playback amplifier to record.. anything at or above 15ips is loosing low end (20Hz). And to my knowledge there is no manufacturer making heads with wide enough gaps for you to be able to run 30IPS and reproduce 25Hz... Sad. And its not like higher tape speeds would allow you to obtain more bandwidth either because your high frequencies get erased by the bias frequency.
I just modified my old poor crappy tape deck to be something respectable instead and maybe in the future Ill be able to build something myself.
My guess was right. The VCR has more clarity of sound.
I have pretty good ears.. I couldn't tell the difference between any of them.
If you're looking to use a VCR for audio purposes, sure get a "HiFi" deck, but if you want higher "quality" audio, try to find an earlier deck that doesn't have the "HiFi" designation.
The "HiFi" logo is actually a technical/legal mark which denotes a technological package of capabilities within the VCR deck, producing a required standard of dynamic range, noise floor, output etc.
Thing is, part of the HiFi requirement is the inclusion of a compressor within the VCR to reduce the dynamic range of recorded and reproduced audio which can then be further amplified beyond the VHS tape's and VCR's noise floor. This isn't like a vibey studio compressor, or a vibey lofi compressor imparting a desirable sound.
Again, not saying don't use a HiFi deck, it is an analog tape deck, and it'll give you a bit of analog vibe, and is surprisingly hifi, lowercase, not the technical demarcation.
While you're using your "HiFi" VCR, keep looking for an earlier VCR without the "HiFi" designation. This type of earlier deck will not have the tech package that prevents you from hitting the tape as hard as you like. See, the HiFi mark requires that compressor/limiter which will prevent your audio levels from going above a certain level, so you'll never be able to push into the tape with higher levels and get that really desirable tape saturation/compression, even what we'd call chunky tape distortion.
You'll get a "clean" degree of analogness off the HiFi deck, but an earlier non-HiFi deck will give you the full package, fully "analog" sounding, meaning you can hit the tape harder and get that really analog tape compression (as audio peaks are smushed down because the tape literally cannot take any higher level, the magnetic particles on the tape are fully saturated), so when high audio level peaks hit the tape and compress, they'll turn that extra energy into (technically) distortion, or what we'd qualitatively call "saturation" at lower levels of overloading the tape, "overdrive" at medium levels of overloading, and "distortion" at truly high levels of overloading the tape. Of course, there aren't just 3 levels of overloaded distortion, there's a full spectrum of distortion from light saturation to full on chunky munkey distortion, all of which is valid and usable in the right context, according to your aesthetic and technical desires.
Some OLD school wisdom for ye.
pssst... a little secret ADAT is just SUPER VHS with a different header
Oh This is the thing i always wonder about it, Btw that track for comparisoin, will you release it?? this is really good
thanks for watching! this track was released on my fourth EP called “What Must I Test Upon This Machine”
this track is called “Upon This” and is steaming everywhere including madeontape.bandcamp.com
the original video is here ua-cam.com/video/XQY281CTY7g/v-deo.html
Ok nice
Helical scanning is only for video. The audio part in linear, just like a cassette tape, but the head width is smaller, hence crappier sound.
hi Dave! thanks for watching my video!
for the beginning of VHS, yes, audio was linear. However, JVC figured out how to embed the audio track under the helical video track…again, i’m not a physician but i did post a forensics article in the top comment above…
…anecdotally, i remember getting the Star Wars 20th anniversary VHS cassettes in 1997, and that sounded as good as CDs on our home sound system (nothing fancy, but better than TV speakers)
cheers! have a great day, and again, thanks for watching!
great video
thank you for watching and listening 🙏🏻🤘🏻
3:55 Only the Hifi VHS Recorders! Normal Mono Audio over the normal head is very bad!
It uses FM carriers while embedding the signal and is demodulated for playback. Sound familiar? It’s basically an FM broadcast without the actual wireless transmission.
It uses a 2:1 dbx-alike companding NR system to achive the S/N.
Without that it would be around 50dB S/N.
The compression is the most severe issue with HiFi-VHS.
Very audible on a quality set-up.
Beside the pumping effect in between, the sound signal was degraded in almost all parameters behind sound quality.
The "Character" influences qualities such as soundstage, perspectives, clarity, naturality, attack, precision, articulation, air around the musicians, microdynamics, overtones, relations between "fat" and "tiny" instruments etc. etc.
Demodulation noise at 60Hz is annoying.
50 Hz noise from the helical scan system is also annoying.
Incompatibility in between decks were extreme.
Fragility of the tape path was an all time issue.
Most people claiming it's better than cassette lack the skills (or the cassette deck lack the option) of calibrating to the tape formula in the cassette deck. This was not needed with helical scan head of the VHS.
HiFi-VHSha good relatively flat frequency response from 20Hz - 20kHz but restricted to that.
Cassette could at best go from 17Hz to 25kHz rather flat and the cut of was not steep as it was with VHS.
Most people used HiFi-VHS to get more playtime.............for party etc.
Main problem for people to determin the differences in quality is their lack of trained hearing, their use of middle of the road gear, their listening room being filled with acoustical issues, their lack of skills in recording etc. etc.
Using a PCM module can make VHS recordi digital.
In that case you get a completely outdated digital resolution that even a Smart Phone can do better.
Im ready, lol.
Is that TEAC a four track? Have you ever done a song just with that?
not all four! there might be an issue with channels 3 and 4 on it but this comment inspired me to try again
@@MadeOnTape Ah, yeah those old things are so finicky. I've always had better luck with cassette machines myself. ✌️
3 was best
well... its not just about music. R2R fans like also rotating reels, for example.
hahaha this cannot be overstated 🙌🏻🎡🛞⚙️
I got it rigth, because first pc, too sterill sound, second a little tape hiss from tape, last warm analog sound vcr
thanks for watching 🙏🤘
In listening, yes #1 sounded the best and that was expected since that was a direct run into the computer. However, I was pretty darn surprised at how well the VCR did. Frankly, I think your reel to reel was lacking the most. Slightly muffled highs and I can hear the Wow and Flutter. (Perhaps a nicked pinch roller?) Granted though, those old wood side Teac units were lacking a bit in performance due to age and most have fairly worn heads by now. If you were using a high end Akai GX series, a Pioneer, Technics or Tascam unit (the professional line of Teac), then that would have given the VCR a run for the money. Still, when you think of it at how much new, blank open reels cost now, the VCR wins out in cost and also running time as you can get up to 6 hours on a tape. At what speed where you recording at? I would assume SP given that would give you the best sound quality. Also it would be nice to know what speed you were running the reel to reel at. That should have been at least 7 1/2 ips. If you used 3 3/4, that would also explain the roll off on the high end and the wow and flutter. Nice test / comparison though. The results were very interesting to say the least.
thanks for this comment and questions!
the reels were running at 7.5 IPS. The VCR was running at SP, but I have since learned that for audio, EP is probably better, which is counter-intuitive to music-audio, but i might do a video on that topic specifically!
I really appreciate your thoughtful response! more videos coming soon.
@@MadeOnTape If your tape path (on the Teac) is clean, I would take a good look at the pinch roller. You have noticeable wow and flutter on that deck. But if the heads have some wear, there isn't much you can do about the high end, save for having the deck professionally looked at and adjusted. Sadly I had a Teac and a Revox that had issues like that. Then I bought a nearly new Akai GX-747 and that really changed my perspective on reel to reel listening. Simply put, that deck sounded like a CD player on 7.5 ips with NO noise reduction system. As for the VCR, you probably are right as the tape speed for audio reaches the point of diminishing returns as you probably will still get some good audio quality. You may get a bit more hiss at EP though as the higher speed will drop the noise floor. But given that the resolution is mainly in support of video, the gains from the fast speed (for audio) is probably minimal. Still it is a good find and this isn't the first time I have heard of using a HiFi Stereo VCR for audio only. But to hear the comparison, especially compared to the direct audio, is eye opening. However, in terms of looks, it is hard to beat the open reel deck. Seriously though, swap that Teac out for a nice condition Akai GX series and then try the comparison again. Those Akai decks are amazing! Sadly, they have been creeping up in price tremendously. In 2009, I sold my GX-747 for a whopping $700 with tapes. Now the thing goes for way more than that! Still there are other models in the GX line that are very good and still affordable.
@@jukingeo I'd love to upgrade someday but I definitely can't afford it now lol
Again, thank you for the thoughtful comment!
@@MadeOnTape Indeed, unlike in the late 90's and early Millennium years when tape machines could be bought for a decent price, they have skyrocketed over the years. The Tascam 34, which is the pro version of your unit sells now for $1200. I could get it for $500 back in 1998. I had thought about getting back into it, but the cost is just too high for a high performance deck. Going back to Akai, some lesser performing 2 track models are cheaper, but I believe even your older Teac could outperform them and that is four track.
@@jukingeo sounds better with the wow and flutter.. all those things that boomers tried to “clean up” about tape recorders is what gives it the distinctive quality of being tape. If you want a perfect lossless reproduction of what the microphone is picking up, pretty easy to do that with a cheap digital interface. That’s also probably the least exciting medium for audio. All the terrible sounding artifacts of tape recording IS what makes it endearing.
would have made a bit more sense to record a digital file on all 3 and then compare but thanks for the video
i’m not sure what you mean: do you mean, record tracks straight to DAW then send them out to these machines?
thanks for watching! 🙏
@@MadeOnTape I ment record something high quality out to all three and then capture it so we can compare what they sound like
Plus it's proven DVDs blue Ray's scratchs up plus they lock up
YOU NEEDED MORE GAIN because you're using a modern VCR that you cannot control Levels.
I use an Older Fisher (Curtis Mathis aka Panasonic) has levels and meters on the front.
It also gives an option for a direct audio recording called "A Dub". The Dub feature records on a VHS's mono-linear track. Lots of his, you can do some saturation tricks... so much. TRY IT!
i definitely would love to try it someday! Great idea for a future video topic, too, thanks for sharing!
@@MadeOnTape
Note: Any 2000+ year VCR's are designed as throw away and aren't repairable and you shouldn't waste time on (especially any combo units). Any older 80's-90's VCR's at this moment will need new belts and pinch rollers (rubber wears, and even if idle, doesn't last forever). Parts are available online.
I think the last modern consumer VCR I saw with front panel levels and peak meter was made by Sanyo (same brand as Fisher). There are also several Pro JVC models that have so many more editing options... in this time, they should be available at a consumer level price, but again, may need a little servicing.
but VHS players use a separate head for reading audio. Audio is printed to VHS as a separate track along the edges of the tape and is picked up by a separate stationary head after the video head., the reason video signal is on a spinning head is because of the amount of signal needed to produce video per cm is much more than what is required for audio.
thanks for watching and commenting! What you're saying was true in the early days of VHS, but starting in the late 80s audio became embedded in the helical video track. I think the confusion comes because all VCRs still have a stationary head for two main reasons:
1. so people with old VHS could still play their tapes
2. it also has an alignment track that we don't see or hear on the consumer side.
I highly recommend reading some of the articles I pinned in the top comment. Again, thanks for watching! This was a fun experiment and hope to see you back for more down the road!
Many times when using these vcrs to record it's good to have the video hooked up to something like a small tv. This may help reduce hum and noise by not leaving that jack open.
Also, yes, you need to pump the levels. VCRs have awesome compression and can handle a lot of gain. This is important when recording with vcr.
excellent advice! definitely more exploration of the VCR down the road. thanks for watching 🙏
What could be used best to pump up the levels? Any advice in type of device or model or brand?
@WillemdaGuide I only mean that your gain. What ever you are using (mixer or amp) to bring sound into the vcr. The vcr has its own compression and is really good and handling some amount of gain.
@@SirMillz thanks for your reply, I can pump the output level of my 8 track casette but might it be worth to put an pre-amp in between, or maybe an eq? Just thinking up loud. Thanks again!
@WillemdaGuide sure, a preamp will work. You can always experiment with it until you get the desired sound you are looking for. I do recommend hooking coaxial video up to something like a small TV, which should help reduce noise.
One reason you want to go in with a lot of gain is to reduce that sound to noise ration. But, you probably know this. It's recording science 101.
What he forgot to mention was the COST. Not only are VCR dirt cheap (especially compared to a good reel-to-reel) but the tape cost is miniscule. And, because of the helical recording system, the VCR tape speed has no bearing on sound quality. Meaning for about $20 you can get 6-8 HOURS of recording tape. Try that with reel to reel.
Hi. what want for 1 to 1 quality on VHS !
1. Need PAL or NTSC This is the Best Choice with 4.43 because on NTSC recording take more tape space for audio recording and Les for Video signal Then on Pal ,Left channel is 1.3Mhz Right Channel 1.7Mhz!
2. Need VHS with Long play (LP On PAL OR on NTSC Extended Play EP or (SLP)) Because on this mode lowered video quality but again take more space for AUDIO on tape !
3.HI-FI NICAM because minimum need on drum 2 Long play Head ,2 Standard Quality play Head !
4.Black signal generator on VHS calling this button (SIMUL) Or ( Test signal) on BACK This generate Black video signal ,need for tracking stable simulation because VHS tracking system looking this information for synchronization ! When not synchronize tracking system non stop looking and make on recording noises clicking like scratching noises !
ON VHS Without Black Screen Generation Need give in black screen video signal from another device get same results !
5.For best result need check some VHS Without Recording Level adjustment gives the best recordings when input 5 volts but on 0.5-0.7V results poor !
6. Example devices Panasonic NV-F125( NV-HD100AM) ,NV-F75,NV-F65,NV-FS 200 HQ, The best Choice NV-W1!
7. At last For the BEST QUALITY HI-FI Audio on VHS Need Recording ON NTSC ,4.43 ,EP or SLP ON PAL, LP , Black screen Video input or Black screen Generation, Don't forget about input Voltage!
When doo like that on the result getting Quality best then any professional Reel To Reel And DAT is well plenty models not giving that results !
Analog sound is the best ! :-)
I personally knew about that, VHS is high availability, small, compact, can be extremely great if properly used. The question is about the AC-IN. AC transformer is the major problem of VHS recorder.
@@andodigital1 There's a lot of jargon dropping there but most of it is entirely irrelevant. The DMX (Depth Multiplex) system doesn't care about the video format and many VCRs don't need a video signal to lock on to a Hi-Fi Audio track. Admittedly some cheap ones have trouble as do the high end ones with TBC. But it's not true that an NTSC machine gives better Hi-Fi audio than a PAL one, and it doesn't matter if the recording is SP, LP or EP. Most European users would use LP mode for economy and because very few PAL decks have an EP mode.
Just found your channel, great stuff, I’m sure you’ll be growing quickly.
One suggestion I’d make on A/B’ing sources for comparison - don’t make the cuts on beat, make them at completely random intervals. I find the differences are easier to hear that way on videos like this, maybe that’s just me though.. I realize it’s more of a pain when lining up different mixdowns coming from a cassette deck, but I think it’s worth it.
that’s a great suggestion! i think my type-a nature is why i put the change on downbeats. honestly the way i do it, it would be just as easy to make random. Thanks for checking it out!
Enjoyed your vid, and thought I would share my experiences with this largely unknown VCR "Hi-Fi" audio capability.
I used HI-FI vcr's for video dj work back in the 80's. At that time, Music video audio was terrible, so I would put together versions with decent audio quality myself.
After capturing a good quality video source, I would use this to record a 2nd generation video source syncing it alongside audio sourced from a CD or Vinyl and record it onto a Hi-Fi VCR.
I would then have a CD quality music vid to use on a pretty serious dj set up, video projector and big screen. This was hard or very exspensive to achieve in the 80's and even into the late 90's.
A few have made comments around the audio being linear and not helical scan. While its true there has always been a linear audio path and some even marketed a "Stereo VCR" which in reality just split the mono linear portion of the tape and used half the track for left and half for right, the sound might be stereo, but still garbage.
These are NOT the Hi-Fi vcr's which this youTube vid is refering to, and yeah, they probably do belong in a recycle bin.
For it to be useful at recording and playing back decent quality audio, there needs to be the words or a symbol "Hi-Fi" printed on the facia or tape loading flap or somewhere on the front.
"Hi-Fi" identifies it as having the helical scan audio function and from my experience, if you want to get the best out of one of these, choose one with audio record level controls.
The short falls as already commented on by others are real, being head switching distortion and pumping.
Some manufacturers offered better quality more expensive machines, or specifically targeted the audio function rather than just improved sound for a video soundtrack.
They spent more time and R&D minimising or working around these issues. Most people wont notice or care, but if your a critical audio listner and / or have a decent sound system, you will.
That said, they were and are a very cheap method of bulk recording at great quality. (outside the digital realm)
The first hifi vcr's were quite a bit more exspensive than a standard vcr with the pick of the domestic units being the JVC HR-D725.
Very well built unit with excellent picture quality, minimal head switching distortion, manual level controls and great functionality.
While I lusted after one of these, at the time it was just too exspensive, but I found the NEC 895 to be a badge job copy of the JVC for a lot less $ so ended up with the same that I could afford.
I bought or hired quite a few makes and models over the years using a number of them for DJ work and music for parties etc.
The other quality machine of mention would be most of the Panasonic models and a couple of the high end Mitsubishi's... If its an SVHS and a high end model even better.
A lot of the cheaper units I trialled did have the head switching distortion issues, and definately the pumping issue were there was an auto gain control (AGC) used instead of Level control.
One other comment I'd make, being as the helical scanned Hi-Fi audio layer is below the helical scanned video layer, better quality tape will allow the recording to last better as far as dropp outs. It's true you can use any tape and get similar results if the tape is sound, but being a magnetic tape it will suffer degradation over time and more so with el-cheapo formulas
Hope someone finds this interesting or useful.
Cheers !
I found this very interesting and useful! thank you for sharing your thoughtful experience!
Holy shit that was all very useful and interesting AF. Thank you. I am stumbling across this looking for a secret way into getting into tape but doing something different that still sounds great. I feel like the VCR sounds the best in this video and I have always loved the sound of VHS tapes I do not know why, I think I may go this route, any thoughts for me?
BTW, I’m trying to understand something here. It seems to me that the difference in sound quality should have been greater, seeing as how the TEAC is producing a Lofi signal while the VCR is Hifi. Can someone explain this to me?
VHS HiFi was very good for stereo and you can make a 6 hour party tape. Some JVC models had an improved system to get rid of head switching noise and those are the best ones for music. If there had been more development it could have been developed into the best analog recorder ever. I wish someone had done a format where all the heads were used for audio with no video track to maximize audio quality.
that would be very cool! I need to find some skilled machinists 😂 thanks for watching 🙏
Any advice on those JVC models, types?
@@WillemdaGuide The JVC HR-S7800U for sure but any of the later ones should have the anti head switching noise thing.
I think the VCR sounded best - no question about it to my ears. The flattest (lifeless - not frequency response) was direct into the computer. The reel-to-reel came in at a close second. Great video! Subbed your channel. 😎👍
thanks for watching listening, and subbing! let me know if there’s anything you’d like to see down the road! 🤘✌️
I thought 2 was the VCR and the R2R was 3
This is unbelievable content…searching for the tape answers and came across it…thank you…
…BTW…um, am I the only one that thought the VCR sounded the best?…
Same here…I actually hear more hiss coming from the TEAC!?
thanks again George!
Back in the early 90s, in what I now call "The Dark Years". I used to work at Radio Shack. And back then they still sold RtR, DAT, and DCC. But by far, the most popular recording media for garage bands and hobbyist musicians, was Hi-Fi Stereo VHS. You did have to have a pure audio source though. The recording quality was so good, that there was no noise reduction built in.
thanks for sharing!
Not so. VHS HiFi uses a system very similar to DBX. It's just "on" all the time, and not "advertised" to the consumer. There's no need for anyone (except an engineer) to know what's going on inside the machine.
@@njm1971nyc I don't think so. I think you're getting confused with the term DMPX which simply means Depth Multiplex, which refers to the deeper magnetic footprint that the audio signal occupies on the tape in relation to the video signal which non-destructively gets recorded over the top.
@@mbvideoselection umm, nope. 🤷♂️ Nothing to do with it being depth multiplexed. I remember a very boring talk with my slightly creepy boss at Technicolor Videocassette (when I was a "cute teenager" and he was a suspiciously single older man, hahaha, if you know what I mean!) anyway, he was singing the praises of LINEAR audio (seriously!) and slagging-off HiFi audio (or HD, High Dynamic, as Panasonic called it in the early days), because of its rather extreme DBX-style companding system. I still remember the graphs he showed me to illustrate his point. To be fair (to him), the linear audio of the JVC BR-7000 Duplicators was very good, but consumer VHS decks pretty much all had horrible linear audio heads/circuitry, so his point was rather moot. Copying/pasting this next paragraph, for the sake of speed...
"VHS-Hi-Fi system inherently uses a decilinear companding system that is nearly identical to dbx in function and operation. The companding is an integral part of the Hi-Fi spec, it cannot be disabled or avoided, and is in every VHS Hi-Fi recorder."
Different VCR’s can give you different results, but one thing to look for when doing this is changing from SP to EP tape speeds. It’s a little counter-intuitive, but most folks find that recording at the slower speed results in the same audio quality (and also may remove the hiss 🤓). Awesome video - maybe do a follow-up at some point! I’ve done stereo mixes with almost no audible hiss from a DAW. Cheers!
that is counter intuitive! i was planning on exploring EP vs SP, and some other follow ups... thanks for engaging!
@@MadeOnTape, I did some recording on VHS back in the 80s. I recorded a CD onto videotape at the slowest speed. Playing both back and switching between the two, I couldn't hear any difference. You can get 6 hours of better than reel-to-reel quality on a VHS tape.
Its actually pretty simple. MOST of the tape/head speed comes from the spinning head, not the tape moving. Video was severely affected, but audio, not so much!
There is no audio quality different between SP and EP when it comes to HiFi VCRs. It's a PCM audio track encoded. The only difference comes to physical quality and deteriation of the VHS tape itself. If it's degraded in certain areas, the HiFi track could drop out resulting in spots that send the VCR back to playing the linear mono audio track. And that's where quality matters the most. When recording linear/mono track, there's a huge difference between SP and EP.
Fun fact, if you have a VCR that has the "Audio Dub" feature, you can actually overwrite just the linear audio track. This is how radio stations saved money on tapes on LP (mid range speed) with 160 minute tapes recorded in LP.
First, play two shows at the same on separte channels.
HiFi Lch = Show 1
HiFi Rch = Show 2
then re-record on same VHS tape using 'audio dub' feature only to record over:
Linear Audio Mono = Show 3
all on a single tape lol -- RECing on any HiFi Stereo VCR will always record the HiFi and Linear tracks. But Audio Dub is a VCR editing feature that lets you overwrite just the Linear track. We learned this when editing wedding videos for clients when they would take their master tape home and only hear the original edits/raw audio...telling them to set their HiFi VCRs to mono or to watch a copy of the tape we provided that was mono only.
I honestly wasn't paying attention to this week's listening quiz, just digging the music. The VCR did, though, have a bit more top end to my ears.
thanks Josh! more new music coming
Excellent video! I'm really impressed by the quality of the production! Just one thing, though.
VHS was always called "Video Home System," even as far back as its invention in 1976. The "Vertical Helical Scan" connotation is somewhat false. VHS home recording wasn't exactly vertical (the heads of a VHS VCR run at an angle, and as a result isn't vertical), and while VHS VCR's did record video helically, the patents of this form of tape recording belong to Ampex (back in 1961). JVC would have had to pay Ampex royalties to use that name as a result. There are articles from Popular Science in November of 1977 that debunks the use of the "Vertical Helical Scan" name.
That's just me being an OCD internet pedant though. This video was really good and informative otherwise. Keep up the excellent work!
yes! since publishing this video i learned that i was perpetuating a myth! if youtube let me cut in an edit i would have 😂
thanks for the kind words and insight 🙏
The audio on a "Hi-Fi" VHS is also recorded helically, not just the video. Hi-Fi VHS recorded an FM carrier along with the video. The audio was carried within the FM carrier.
When CDs first came out in the 80’s i did some work for the Hard Rock Cafe and they opted to use HiFI VHS for their house music instead of a mega CD changer. The sound quality was superior to CDs and rivaled 15ips Reel to Reel audio quality. We used them to mix on.
thanks for sharing Scott! seemed like a great way to get a good amount of BGM
How did you mix on VHS? As far as I can tell you can have two individual tracks max on VHS due to it being a stereo format but that’s it I’d think.
@@nathanstein589 mixing down to a stereo master is what he means. We did it live with my band straight to vhs.
my guess was: 1 - reel2reel, 2 - cassette, 3 - vhs
i wasn't expecting cassette to be noisier than reel2reel, that surprised me though haha
on hifi vhs, the audio quality is great i think the bitrate is a bit lower than 44.1khz but pretty close to near-cd quality (for me anyways)
but on 2 head vcrs, the audio quality is about half that (which sounds about right since on hifi vcrs, there are usually 4 or more heads on the drum)
because of this videos VCRs are raising in price exponentialy. I better go to buy a reel to reel
The spinning drum head is only for the video NOT the audio. To the far left you will see the erase head and to the right of the spinning drum is the linear audio head. No sound is picked up from that video drum head. The VCR is great for audio recording Just make sure it has "HiFi" written on it else not so great.
Speacily it's proven vhs tapes still greater then blue Ray's does vhs tapes lock up when they get scratch up no they play though with no problem I had DVDs I was 6 years old now am 27 years old and I no vhs tapes never ever locks up Speacily I had some vhs tapes I fixed with scotch tape it starts playing with out no problems at all it's proven vhs tapes are fixable with scotch tape
Great video plus I still record with vhs tapes every day specially I get movies from Netflix and UA-cam Putting all that on my vhs tapes
I could hear the hiss on the R2R, VHS had some rf noise because of the (not recorded) Picture, but it did sound as good as your R2R.
they used to master CDs using a VCR with a Pulse Code Modulator. This was before DAT.
I didn’t hear THAT much hiss with the vcr, though. And I already knew that vcr’s could be used for music: Radio Shack used to put some music CD’s on vhs tapes at one of the stores here in Houston in the 80’s (before Stereo VCR’s were available) just to have music in the store.
Home made poor man adat I wish I knew this In the 90 lol .I have a portable micro br it's sick got hifi setting on it
Great point. I'm an Xer that has to work at a PC most of the day. Love my DAW but am very interested in getting "off the grid" and using a VHS would make perfect sense in conjunction with an analog 4-track recorder. I want to get back to pure creativity that doesn't involve a mouse or keyboard. Thanks for the idea and inspiration! Keep up the great videos.
thanks for watching and listening!
DAT tape machines has the same type of heads as well (but someone said this already below).
I couldn't tell which was which but I knew 2 sounded the best and 1 sounded the worst
I got 1 and 4 right but thought the VHS was the reel 2 reel (Listening through HS8s)
I recorded a band on a Mitsubishi Hifi Vcr. Cd sold well, sounded great
My "Gut" reaction was that they were all the same - direct recording to computer.
The drum spins at 1800 rpm. Add that to the speed of the tape you get Hi-Fi Stereo.
I'm interested to try this at heavily levels, saturated, as I know how reel to reel behaves with the levels cranked but haven't tried with hi-fi VCR.