Essentially Tekken 8 punishes you for not attacking all the time which was never the case in previous Tekken games. It’s unfortunate that having strong defense doesn’t matter in this game. Let’s not also forget that they made every character in this game easier for no reason, most execution and difficult commands have been removed. Tekken 8 was designed for casuals.
@@falconthewrestlr-8745 Having strong defensive knowledge matters even more in T8 cause the situations are more unavoidable with the nerfed back dash. Having that defensive knowledge is how you stop yourself getting blown up and how you can gain an advantage from uncomfortable positions.
Too many moves track, too many moves have crazy plus frames on block and many moves need a damage nerf. Also, the extra unblockables they gave certain characters and guard breaks in general need to go.
It's not that too many moves track. It's that the side step is completely useless unless you fully commit to a sidestep+walk. In a game where moves that are supposed to hit side step are literally marked down in the move list, you'd think sidestep would mean something. They made it so some "non-tracking" moves can only be side stepped left, and some can only be side stepped right. Which is fine to a certain degree but this is not a martial arts inspired game anymore. It doesn't matter if you step out of the way of a left hook to the right or left if people put you in literal cutscenes. You can't argue that "but his punch moves to the right so you need to move to the left to not get hit" because it just does not matter. We are way past the point of a few characters being able to shoot lasers. Now everyone is a super hero.
yea i really dont like how im feeling punished for simply trying to block attacks. in most tournaments it boils down to who can 50/50 the opponent first. back in T7 there was more neutral game. now its just 50/50 ur opponent and pray they guess wrong.
Let’s not forget that some characters strings were changed. For example, Feng’s D4,1+2 is now a low-mid when it used to be a low-high. Lee’s B3,3 is a natural hit string when it was only natural on CH.
Yeah I will admit as a new player to tekken 8, I have played ranked since release until a few months ago where I stayed in the red rank above ganryu with kazuya and never returned since then. Now I'm just grinding season pass for cosmetics and free currency but outside of that, I am never returning to online rank or quickmatches because when I lose I feel I got unlucky and guessed wrong and when I win I felt like I got lucky. When I try to read opponents moves, side step, and duck and punish but quickly learned it's a thousand percent more efficient to Unga bunga 50 50s with low and safe mids. For now until tk8 ups the defense, I am no longer purchasing season passes and will stay in arcade and practice mode til something changes because right now, I just want to enjoy the characters I use and fight against, not loathe and hate every match I play.
@TheChilledScrub OH yeah. Especially when you are actually trying to play smart and learn your characters, but then you are forced i to doing 50 50s and safe strings(plus heat) until you win. Which halts learning any other moves on the characters and restricting us to play with only 5 to 7 moves( arguably only 2 if you have a safe mid panic button launcher and a low hellsweep of somekind). Other than that i do not feel i am learning in this game, it just feels i am gambling instead. Which is why i too am just gonna take a long break from tk8 cuz it's fun, just not when your on the receiving end.
try a new character man! unga bunga *can* carry but it sounds to me like your sights are set in the wrong place. every match is an iteration on your fgc career and can be taken as seriously or unseriously as you want. a perspective shift helped me when i was learning zafina and every time i log on i have a pretty good time by en large. tekkens tough! even if this is the easiest tekken its still thousands of moves to learn to counter and your knowledge effectively resets when you pick a new character. that's a lot of investment. defense will always be harder than offense in this way and if defensive play got a lot of buffs it could have adverse effects on the game flow where both players are too afraid to move or try things. party characters like the bears, zafina, yoshi, even bryan or steve allow you to get immersed in the characters movesets and whittle away at whatever goals you set for yourself. that being said, those goals have to be centered on your own progress, as your opponent will always exist on their own and do whatever they want. goals like high ranks are misleading in this way because they are dependent on your opponents which creates that frustration. i only play ranked, i couldnt care what my rank is as long as im improving at my character. im shinryu so i suppose my method is working ok on a rank front, but again im just happy to hit the correct punish yk? anyways not tryna come at u but I wish u success and hope your find what you're looking for
It caters to the "i didnt pay $60 to block" type of people and that pisses me off so much. If i wanted to play a fighting game where im actually punished for my defense rightfully so.... ill go play KOF. At least its fair..
@@TheChilledScrub but Tekken is 3D so they're trying to see more sidestepping in 3D games to cater to the science of 3D offense and defense. Sidestep more.
Killing Moon in a Tekken video is pretty funny. Tekken 7 was garbage too and Akuma made it quite obvious. Most of the unnecessary mechanics like armor and rage were spawned in Tekken 7 and that was honestly the reason I didn't bother playing it more than a day. These mechanics fit Tekken 8 better because the game is complete jank so it doesn't feel awkward and the whole game is designed around it. But they just doubled down on everything that makes Tekken 7 less Tekken.
Thank you. Someone said it besides me. I was telling people if you don’t like Tekken 7 then you really won’t like 8. Tekken 7 is essentially Tekken 8 beta.
@@TheChilledScrubFor real, T8 doubled down on everything I dislike about T7 - forced 50/50s, gimped horizontal movement that forces you to fight in a telephone box at all times, no scope for footsies. Having abandoned T7 in favour of older Tekkens for this reason, I certainly shall not be going anywhere near T8.
@@TheChilledScrub honestly I feel like Tekken 8 feels different enough with its own identity that while I didn't like Tekken 7, I still enjoyed 8 a bit more. Because it wasn't pretending to be proper Tekken while under the hood it's something else entirely and when it's upfront you can accept most things easier and move on. I hope VF6 doesn't follow the same trend of overly modernizing mechanics and even adding extra stuff that doesn't belong. Even Street Fighter is guilty of this since SF5 when they removed true 1 frame links.
Cool video! I respect you getting out there and putting ur ideas out. Not sure if the video followed ur premise about defence being a nightmare.. it kinda just went into you analyzing ur own play which is totally fine. I'll subscribe for more!
The analysis was me showing that you can still play defense, but for newcomers it’s extremely hard considering most people don’t have 10+ years of match up knowledge. I probably should have used a match of me steamrolling someone with constant 50/50’s and showing how difficult it is to get out of it. Thanks for watching bro!
Great video mate, highly agree on offense being way too accessible and op compared to defense where you are basically forced to one play style which is to mash heat, armor crush, or rage art whenever possible and spam 50/50. Also wanted to ask which soundtrack was playing? Great songs. Have a blessed day
@@TheChilledScrubthank you for responding king! The song specifically I need is the one that starts at 12:17. Hoping S2 is a complete overhaul otherwise imma just continue practicing my peace. This direction has killed all urge to play this game.
Honestly, there's only one major change needed to buff defense: - Reduce tracking Since you mentioned Kazuya, I'll use him as example. Take his d/f1 for example, normally, against Kazuya, the "counter play" used to be SSL, which is fine, but not in T8, SSL doesn't work anymore against, out of the whole cast, only Victor and Lili can SSL his d/f1. All characters should have an actual weak side. People say that Bryan, Lee or Heihachi are "linear", but they aren't actually linear. For Bryan, his tracking is different on each move pretty much. You got hit by hatchet or blocked a b1? Which way you step? Correct answer is, who the fuck nows. d/f2 will track SSL, same for the jabs, but then if you decide to go right because "that's Bryan's weak side", d/f1 or d2 catch SSR. Sure, Lili can side step both direction, but not every character is Lili. And don't even get me started with how his d3 is pretty much homing. So yea, while most of his moves are "linear" in one direction, that's true, each move has a different direction to where if you want to evade him with movement, you have to guess the exact move he will do, which is no different from the forced 50-50s people complain about when they have to deal with stuff like Alisa's DES, Clive, etc. Sure, characters should have a way to challenge your movement, that's understandable, but those moves should be things done with that exact intention. Take Xiaoyu as example, her strong moves are weak to SSL, and I mean actually weak to SSL, not "Kazuya weak to SSL" type, even her ff3 and ff4 can easily be side stepped to the left. She can do b4 to track you the left, but it's a -11 on block move and 0 on hit. Her homing moves are too slow to stop someone doing side step block, so she needs to go for b4, but again, that's a punishable move, so she can stop you, but at the same time, if she makes the wrong call, she gets punished. Challenging movement shouldn't be something the move/string does automatically, the way Dragunov's b4,3 did before the nerf, and how many strings still work rn. Hell, I had a King not that long ago where I made a read, side stepped, and his armored charge just turned around to hit me, he just did a 180. Characters should have to play around the fact that they have a weak side towards which the opponent can move around, and making the wrong calls will get you punished. That also includes stuff like homing high guard breaks/unbreakable throws and homing mids as part of big mixups, where you have to guess the hard 50-50, those should also go. Those mixups should have a way to counter movement somewhere, yes, but that move should be lower reward, to where it's an actual mind game. If they keep trying to move, the damage will pile up until they either lose, or they stop moving, but the fact that it is lower reward makes it so you want to use the big reward ones and the opponent knows that. You got the counter to movement that still gives a reward, it's just not a huge 50 damage wall splat from guard break, but at the same time, if you're greedy for the big rewards, the opponent has a counter, as it should be. That will solve the aggression problem without needing to outright kill offense, because if someone isn't careful with their offense and actually making reads on what you try to do, they will simply get evaded with movement till they get demoted to Yellow ranks.
This is why I like TTT2 movement. Ttt2 movement was better bet had risk if you were irresponsible. I like your approach both sides should be rewarded for making the right play.
I've heavily been on the fence about buying Tekken 8. It seems that unless I'm playing with relatives or homies, it really isn't something I would enjoy. If it isn't the mechanics, it'll be the community that'll turn me away.
I was literally saying this last night the defensive options are horrible. They also need to look at input reading because there’s alot of times I get hit & im not pressing anything I promise. They also need to adjust backingdash or the lack there of. I’m not tryna sound old or out of touch but I’m a tekken vet & I can confidently say it’s sad because this is truly how the devs want the game played it’s promotes the most mashy unga bunga playstyles with very little counter play outside of going unga bunga yourself
I don't know how much our opinions will line up, but I think defense is good as hell in Tekken compared to nearly every other fighting game - it's just difficult. It comes from several things that are baked into the core mechanics and design of the game. Backdashing being a retreating movement that blocks the scarier moves (mids and highs) while being interruptible at any time and with no vulnerability window is in some ways absolutely wild compared to other games. Lows being in a sense awful risk vs reward but finding a niche despite this because nothing else really threatens someone just standing there holding back. Throws being generally completely reactable to the point that outside of CHs you could expect a high level player to break them nearly everytime. The ability to launch punish essentially every crouched high if you're sharp enough. Sidestepping is more dangerous as a defender compared to other defensive actions because you can't block during it but it's still interruptible at any point. Defense in Tekken is good as hell. I think part of the problem is defense is also really hard. If you're super aggressive and try to smother the opponent you don't really need to know what THEY do, you just need to know what YOU do, and knowing one character is a lot easier than knowing all 32 characters in T8 right now. This together with Tekken having just a large quantity of things to know because of how it does movesets. It's an ocean of knowledge to take in and apply moment by moment, and it just takes lots and lots of time which is part of why a lot of the best players are old heads who have a decade or more in the games. It's often a big project to even get to the starting line of being able to interact with a MU because you know what they're doing and what it represents. I think heat and the mechanics around it are basically a way to encourage offense and create one or two clear offensive openings, so that players generally have at least one opening per match. In T7 they did this with Rage Drives which were very often relatively quick big dumb plus on-block mids. In T8, heat engagers and heat dashes do a similar thing, giving more or less one free move of choice. I think if we disagree it's probably around these mechanics and whether they're too strong or whether they flatten everything out too much.
Agree with pretty much all of this. And now as someone trying to learn soulcalibur 6, I can really appreciate how good defensive movement is in Tekken, especially in regards to what you say about back dashing. I keep trying to move around between hits in Soulcalibur (because I'm a Tekken player ofc) but you can't instantly block after moving so it keeps getting me hit.
In previous tekken games the more you SPAMED the more you had a chance to just unalive yourself. In T8 the LESS you spam, the more you have chanced to unalive yourself. Its ass backwards! Funny part is, I've seen some newcomers with around 100h in T8 complain about the oppisite: "mfkr just holds back and I cant kill him, scrub ass nugget play the game". To me it looks like they targeted people who play 50-150 hours in a game total, occasionally comming back to buy a new skin for their waifu or a new battlepass. I'm not one of those people, so after ~700 hours in T7 & T8 combined I'm no longer playing reguralry. This game is for the PAYERs not the PLAYERs, and it makes me sad.
I wouldn’t say it’s gone I don’t think you’re wrong I just think you’re over playing it. but we’re getting another balance patch have faith. Look how 7 turned out in the end.
It's designed to make you not want to defend and just slap buttons. It's the same philosophy behind SF5 which made that game awful. Normals doing recoverable damage is a huge mistake.
Don't try to play high level tekken by yourself. If you had just used the replay system it would've immediately shown you how lackluster your "defensive style" actually is because of how many times its going to pause and show you a missed punish. Trying to actually play this way without actually having full fundamental defensive knowledge is just going to hold you back. This is Tekken 8, mash downjab, mash rage art, mash your broken powercrush. If you just sit there and let them run at you, you're going to get run over especially if you don't actually have real defensive knowledge of the character. You don't need super insane korean level defense to make it to the high ranks. You SHOULD learn common strings and counterplays of the characters you fight and make use of the replay system. Don't fall into the same trap I did because you will get stuck at a certain rank. You have to learn Tekken 8 style of play.
Tekken Emperor with several characters and my point still stands you couldnt have watch the gameplay in the actual video because I point out often what I did wrong and right.
@@TheChilledScrub Sure you pointed out a couple things but you don't have the absolute knowledge of the replay system telling you things and you also aren't in game to take over and redo situations. What's the point of watching replays without actually labbing and practicing the situations. If you were in the replay you would've known Heihachi d/b2 is -18 the first time it was blocked. You would've known that you can duck broken toy and the guard break after heat smash. Or that d/b2 is actually +6 on hit and hopkicking after even though resulted in a launch for you, is a terrible option. In fact I know you don't actually lab situations because you think you can always jab reina ff2 when there are 3 options it loses to. How many moments in here were you like "I don't know whats going on here." THEN FIGURE OUT WHATS GOING ON. Thinking this style is working because you have multiple characters at emperor is just dumb. You will and probably have already started to plateau.
@@kractive6192 You actually don’t listen and one of the people who actually let there ranks get to there head. I don’t know if this is rage bait or not. I know that heihachi d/b2 is launch punishable on block. I also know it plus 6. When it comes to the Reina situation I know you don’t listen because often said that jab checking ff2 on block is situation and you also see me take the safer option and step it. Since you want to be one of those type of people if you jab check and she goes for the 4 option she will get floated . If you block it she’s plus 4 and it her turn to keep going. Please stop being a condescending person and actually try to listen. I’ve watched your gameplay and it’s far from perfect because neither one of us are pro level players. You don’t see me calling out every single fault in your play. Have a good day.
Raw/ neutral Heat engagers are one of your best defensive tools when you want to be defensive especially when you know your turns about to end or has ended, it gives you enough time to setup up a new option. I like playing neutral as well i use to barely use heat outside of moves that lead into heat engaers and combos but now i take my turn back all the time. Basically like a universal parry or CH option. Edit: also that heihachi was pretty bad, nothing against you. But i have a strong feeling hes not a mishima player. The lack of wavu into mix as well as electrics give it away.
Heihachi is my secondary character and in the first players defense...popping heat whenever you can is priority number 1 just to make sure you have access to Warrior Instinct in the final rounds.
Great video tho! This game definitely needs infinite rematches especially for those like me who only played Tekken casually off an on over the years. I don't know all the strings and minus on block stuff. I do use the replays for stuff I'm completely baffled about. I like the adaptations of longer sets with friends
your speaking facts fam everything tracks and realign and the forced 50/50s and push forward moves destroyed neutral poking characters hitting like trucks and chip damage on block plus heat and 2 launches and sum pokes or 1 50/50 and your dead this makes the game worst. This game needs game changing patches hopefully on season 2 they can fix everything. See u in season 2.
That’s why I’m not intrested in this game anymore. I’m ready for vf6 bc everything is so plus even though sidesteps are barely better for me that’s not enough.
Honestly I dropped this game because of the problems you mentioned. The game is a race to see who can spam safe, plus on block, armored heat engagers for the win. The game dumbed down characters to the point they brain dead. They made characters that took skill to use at high levels easy to use and made already easy characters to use even easier to play with.
Defense is the biggest knowledge check sidestepping is the thing everyone needs to learn they buffed it for a reason backdashing was boring so they nerfed it and if you’ve played 2d games like street fighter there’s the saying of take the throw in Tekken it’s take the low you don’t have to block everything not hating just kinda clarifying the design.
You rephrasing things I already said. I said that during the heihachi match. Sometimes it’s better to take the db2 or step it rather than trying to black it and eat a launching mid.
i feel like they should buff KBD but in tekken 8 you rarely need to do more than 3 or 4 in a row. Any more than that and your just putting your own back against the wall
tekken8 punishes the fact that you aren't agressive. defence is too hard to be held. so you have to use your frame knowledge to assert your domination over the enemy. and you also have to think about your offence to keep it. I love the game
44 defense kind of proves my point does it not. I have a 80+ offense and a 90+ defense. With multiple Tekken emperors. I understand the meta I just don’t like it.
jabbing reina after ff2 is bad. she is +2 on block. 3 is i12 so it clash with you she does way more damage and is +10. her armor crush blocks it and resets. and the low just beats it out right. the only option jab beat is 4, 1, and the grab. those are her mid options. your better off ducking at least you get a launcher.
@@TheChilledScrub yes but you still gave horrible advice. saying you should jab her when jabing only is good against 4 because you get a float. other than she wins most of than it way more in her favor. the only reason the reina didnt win is because the dont know their own options.
@@TheChilledScrub not true she kept trying to cancel to watch and see if you pressed and that option can be hit with jab. so, she didn't fix the problem of you defaulting to the jab often or just blocking. if she would've went for 3 or 3+4. that would've dealt with the jab or just blocking forcing to duck and open you up more. but instead, she only went for options that jab would normally beat. 4 and 1 or just not pressing. it wasn't until the final two round when she went for 3 and the low more and she did much better. I don't think she actually knew why it was working tho more so just pressing ff2 into options.
Watch again the Reina player went for 3 and I stepped and blocked. Please be sure to watch all of it before trying to critique me. I even pointed it out.
offense dominates even at the pro level. Maybe not as much as in casuals but just watch say the STL finals from a couple ago buttons were constantly being pressed. Pros just dont do dumb shit like press at -6 or worse
Anything -9 or below is safe. Pro take risk all the time. The reason why pro players don’t go crazy is because of how solid their defense is. Tekken 8 in particular forces you to be more aggressive even KNEE has complained about it.
Essentially Tekken 8 punishes you for not attacking all the time which was never the case in previous Tekken games. It’s unfortunate that having strong defense doesn’t matter in this game. Let’s not also forget that they made every character in this game easier for no reason, most execution and difficult commands have been removed. Tekken 8 was designed for casuals.
@@falconthewrestlr-8745 Having strong defensive knowledge matters even more in T8 cause the situations are more unavoidable with the nerfed back dash.
Having that defensive knowledge is how you stop yourself getting blown up and how you can gain an advantage from uncomfortable positions.
@@falconthewrestlr-8745
Complete opposite. Having defensive knowledge is even more important in T8 because of all the additional offensive options
Heatburst, heatsmash, heat engagers mid crushing, parry, chip damage, RA, guard breaks, unbreakable grabs, powercrush.
Nothing but facts
Too many moves track, too many moves have crazy plus frames on block and many moves need a damage nerf. Also, the extra unblockables they gave certain characters and guard breaks in general need to go.
Plus the guard breaks too.
It's not that too many moves track. It's that the side step is completely useless unless you fully commit to a sidestep+walk. In a game where moves that are supposed to hit side step are literally marked down in the move list, you'd think sidestep would mean something. They made it so some "non-tracking" moves can only be side stepped left, and some can only be side stepped right. Which is fine to a certain degree but this is not a martial arts inspired game anymore. It doesn't matter if you step out of the way of a left hook to the right or left if people put you in literal cutscenes. You can't argue that "but his punch moves to the right so you need to move to the left to not get hit" because it just does not matter. We are way past the point of a few characters being able to shoot lasers. Now everyone is a super hero.
yea i really dont like how im feeling punished for simply trying to block attacks. in most tournaments it boils down to who can 50/50 the opponent first. back in T7 there was more neutral game. now its just 50/50 ur opponent and pray they guess wrong.
Its so true that it hurts.
Let’s not forget that some characters strings were changed. For example, Feng’s D4,1+2 is now a low-mid when it used to be a low-high. Lee’s B3,3 is a natural hit string when it was only natural on CH.
I just want them to tone down some things in the game
@ you are not the only one
I'm pretty sure d4,1+2 was mid. At least in T7 I know it was.
@ no it wasn’t a mid in T7
@@TenezTheSaiyanbrother you’re wrong it’s always been mid
My main problem is if you play a character with no parry or spin evasion, then you half to eat every string.
They make insanely difficult to were you have to use very risky options.
The game should incentivise aggression without nerfing defence
That’s something I can get behind
@ if you look at dbz fighters for example u get meter the more you hit someone and the more you move forwards or toward the opponent , just an example
Yeah I will admit as a new player to tekken 8, I have played ranked since release until a few months ago where I stayed in the red rank above ganryu with kazuya and never returned since then. Now I'm just grinding season pass for cosmetics and free currency but outside of that, I am never returning to online rank or quickmatches because when I lose I feel I got unlucky and guessed wrong and when I win I felt like I got lucky. When I try to read opponents moves, side step, and duck and punish but quickly learned it's a thousand percent more efficient to Unga bunga 50 50s with low and safe mids. For now until tk8 ups the defense, I am no longer purchasing season passes and will stay in arcade and practice mode til something changes because right now, I just want to enjoy the characters I use and fight against, not loathe and hate every match I play.
That’s part of why I took a long break the game is fun to watch stressful to play.
@TheChilledScrub OH yeah. Especially when you are actually trying to play smart and learn your characters, but then you are forced i to doing 50 50s and safe strings(plus heat) until you win. Which halts learning any other moves on the characters and restricting us to play with only 5 to 7 moves( arguably only 2 if you have a safe mid panic button launcher and a low hellsweep of somekind). Other than that i do not feel i am learning in this game, it just feels i am gambling instead. Which is why i too am just gonna take a long break from tk8 cuz it's fun, just not when your on the receiving end.
try a new character man! unga bunga *can* carry but it sounds to me like your sights are set in the wrong place. every match is an iteration on your fgc career and can be taken as seriously or unseriously as you want. a perspective shift helped me when i was learning zafina and every time i log on i have a pretty good time by en large. tekkens tough! even if this is the easiest tekken its still thousands of moves to learn to counter and your knowledge effectively resets when you pick a new character. that's a lot of investment. defense will always be harder than offense in this way and if defensive play got a lot of buffs it could have adverse effects on the game flow where both players are too afraid to move or try things. party characters like the bears, zafina, yoshi, even bryan or steve allow you to get immersed in the characters movesets and whittle away at whatever goals you set for yourself. that being said, those goals have to be centered on your own progress, as your opponent will always exist on their own and do whatever they want. goals like high ranks are misleading in this way because they are dependent on your opponents which creates that frustration. i only play ranked, i couldnt care what my rank is as long as im improving at my character. im shinryu so i suppose my method is working ok on a rank front, but again im just happy to hit the correct punish yk? anyways not tryna come at u but I wish u success and hope your find what you're looking for
ps fuck jin
@ Dude, I play half the roster what are you talking about.
It caters to the "i didnt pay $60 to block" type of people and that pisses me off so much. If i wanted to play a fighting game where im actually punished for my defense rightfully so.... ill go play KOF. At least its fair..
Even KOF stick to standard tradition of 2D defense. You are right it snowball quickly in KOFXV
@@TheChilledScrub but Tekken is 3D so they're trying to see more sidestepping in 3D games to cater to the science of 3D offense and defense. Sidestep more.
@leebyakkoprizziano Then we’d go back to older Tekken games were sidestepping was better with less tracking moves
@TheChilledScrub I just lowkey want Eliza in Tekken 8 💀
Killing Moon in a Tekken video is pretty funny. Tekken 7 was garbage too and Akuma made it quite obvious. Most of the unnecessary mechanics like armor and rage were spawned in Tekken 7 and that was honestly the reason I didn't bother playing it more than a day. These mechanics fit Tekken 8 better because the game is complete jank so it doesn't feel awkward and the whole game is designed around it. But they just doubled down on everything that makes Tekken 7 less Tekken.
Thank you. Someone said it besides me. I was telling people if you don’t like Tekken 7 then you really won’t like 8. Tekken 7 is essentially Tekken 8 beta.
@@TheChilledScrubFor real, T8 doubled down on everything I dislike about T7 - forced 50/50s, gimped horizontal movement that forces you to fight in a telephone box at all times, no scope for footsies. Having abandoned T7 in favour of older Tekkens for this reason, I certainly shall not be going anywhere near T8.
@@TheChilledScrub honestly I feel like Tekken 8 feels different enough with its own identity that while I didn't like Tekken 7, I still enjoyed 8 a bit more. Because it wasn't pretending to be proper Tekken while under the hood it's something else entirely and when it's upfront you can accept most things easier and move on. I hope VF6 doesn't follow the same trend of overly modernizing mechanics and even adding extra stuff that doesn't belong. Even Street Fighter is guilty of this since SF5 when they removed true 1 frame links.
Cool video! I respect you getting out there and putting ur ideas out. Not sure if the video followed ur premise about defence being a nightmare.. it kinda just went into you analyzing ur own play which is totally fine. I'll subscribe for more!
The analysis was me showing that you can still play defense, but for newcomers it’s extremely hard considering most people don’t have 10+ years of match up knowledge.
I probably should have used a match of me steamrolling someone with constant 50/50’s and showing how difficult it is to get out of it.
Thanks for watching bro!
Great video mate, highly agree on offense being way too accessible and op compared to defense where you are basically forced to one play style which is to mash heat, armor crush, or rage art whenever possible and spam 50/50. Also wanted to ask which soundtrack was playing? Great songs. Have a blessed day
Give me a timestamp for the song you want it’s a mix.
They weren’t kidding when they said aggression I didn’t think it would be this bad though.
@@TheChilledScrubthank you for responding king! The song specifically I need is the one that starts at 12:17.
Hoping S2 is a complete overhaul otherwise imma just continue practicing my peace. This direction has killed all urge to play this game.
@ Street Fighter EX2 Flash Train
@@TheChilledScrub thank you again king!
Getting one good sidestep in 8 can take 70% of your opponents health its wild.
On the other hand, I constantly see people complaining that too many attacks track.
A lot of move that should track do
The hard part is getting that step vs a good player.
Honestly, there's only one major change needed to buff defense:
- Reduce tracking
Since you mentioned Kazuya, I'll use him as example. Take his d/f1 for example, normally, against Kazuya, the "counter play" used to be SSL, which is fine, but not in T8, SSL doesn't work anymore against, out of the whole cast, only Victor and Lili can SSL his d/f1.
All characters should have an actual weak side. People say that Bryan, Lee or Heihachi are "linear", but they aren't actually linear. For Bryan, his tracking is different on each move pretty much. You got hit by hatchet or blocked a b1? Which way you step? Correct answer is, who the fuck nows. d/f2 will track SSL, same for the jabs, but then if you decide to go right because "that's Bryan's weak side", d/f1 or d2 catch SSR. Sure, Lili can side step both direction, but not every character is Lili. And don't even get me started with how his d3 is pretty much homing. So yea, while most of his moves are "linear" in one direction, that's true, each move has a different direction to where if you want to evade him with movement, you have to guess the exact move he will do, which is no different from the forced 50-50s people complain about when they have to deal with stuff like Alisa's DES, Clive, etc.
Sure, characters should have a way to challenge your movement, that's understandable, but those moves should be things done with that exact intention. Take Xiaoyu as example, her strong moves are weak to SSL, and I mean actually weak to SSL, not "Kazuya weak to SSL" type, even her ff3 and ff4 can easily be side stepped to the left. She can do b4 to track you the left, but it's a -11 on block move and 0 on hit. Her homing moves are too slow to stop someone doing side step block, so she needs to go for b4, but again, that's a punishable move, so she can stop you, but at the same time, if she makes the wrong call, she gets punished.
Challenging movement shouldn't be something the move/string does automatically, the way Dragunov's b4,3 did before the nerf, and how many strings still work rn. Hell, I had a King not that long ago where I made a read, side stepped, and his armored charge just turned around to hit me, he just did a 180. Characters should have to play around the fact that they have a weak side towards which the opponent can move around, and making the wrong calls will get you punished. That also includes stuff like homing high guard breaks/unbreakable throws and homing mids as part of big mixups, where you have to guess the hard 50-50, those should also go. Those mixups should have a way to counter movement somewhere, yes, but that move should be lower reward, to where it's an actual mind game. If they keep trying to move, the damage will pile up until they either lose, or they stop moving, but the fact that it is lower reward makes it so you want to use the big reward ones and the opponent knows that. You got the counter to movement that still gives a reward, it's just not a huge 50 damage wall splat from guard break, but at the same time, if you're greedy for the big rewards, the opponent has a counter, as it should be.
That will solve the aggression problem without needing to outright kill offense, because if someone isn't careful with their offense and actually making reads on what you try to do, they will simply get evaded with movement till they get demoted to Yellow ranks.
This is why I like TTT2 movement. Ttt2 movement was better bet had risk if you were irresponsible.
I like your approach both sides should be rewarded for making the right play.
Also, loving the new set up/spot. Glad to see you’re doing well and progressing with things.
Yeah, the peace is great and it’s not so cluttered in my new spot.
I've heavily been on the fence about buying Tekken 8. It seems that unless I'm playing with relatives or homies, it really isn't something I would enjoy. If it isn't the mechanics, it'll be the community that'll turn me away.
Do yourself a solid and protect your peace.
12:17 SFEX2 Plus OST ❤🔥
I was literally saying this last night the defensive options are horrible. They also need to look at input reading because there’s alot of times I get hit & im not pressing anything I promise. They also need to adjust backingdash or the lack there of. I’m not tryna sound old or out of touch but I’m a tekken vet & I can confidently say it’s sad because this is truly how the devs want the game played it’s promotes the most mashy unga bunga playstyles with very little counter play outside of going unga bunga yourself
That’s exactly what I started doing just turning my brain off.
If the want it to be more aggressive nerf combo damage as well
just so you know 11 is -5 for heihachi, it's one of big weakness and why he's not as good as kazuya or reina
I don't know how much our opinions will line up, but I think defense is good as hell in Tekken compared to nearly every other fighting game - it's just difficult. It comes from several things that are baked into the core mechanics and design of the game. Backdashing being a retreating movement that blocks the scarier moves (mids and highs) while being interruptible at any time and with no vulnerability window is in some ways absolutely wild compared to other games. Lows being in a sense awful risk vs reward but finding a niche despite this because nothing else really threatens someone just standing there holding back. Throws being generally completely reactable to the point that outside of CHs you could expect a high level player to break them nearly everytime. The ability to launch punish essentially every crouched high if you're sharp enough. Sidestepping is more dangerous as a defender compared to other defensive actions because you can't block during it but it's still interruptible at any point. Defense in Tekken is good as hell.
I think part of the problem is defense is also really hard. If you're super aggressive and try to smother the opponent you don't really need to know what THEY do, you just need to know what YOU do, and knowing one character is a lot easier than knowing all 32 characters in T8 right now. This together with Tekken having just a large quantity of things to know because of how it does movesets. It's an ocean of knowledge to take in and apply moment by moment, and it just takes lots and lots of time which is part of why a lot of the best players are old heads who have a decade or more in the games. It's often a big project to even get to the starting line of being able to interact with a MU because you know what they're doing and what it represents.
I think heat and the mechanics around it are basically a way to encourage offense and create one or two clear offensive openings, so that players generally have at least one opening per match. In T7 they did this with Rage Drives which were very often relatively quick big dumb plus on-block mids. In T8, heat engagers and heat dashes do a similar thing, giving more or less one free move of choice. I think if we disagree it's probably around these mechanics and whether they're too strong or whether they flatten everything out too much.
Agree with pretty much all of this. And now as someone trying to learn soulcalibur 6, I can really appreciate how good defensive movement is in Tekken, especially in regards to what you say about back dashing.
I keep trying to move around between hits in Soulcalibur (because I'm a Tekken player ofc) but you can't instantly block after moving so it keeps getting me hit.
In previous tekken games the more you SPAMED the more you had a chance to just unalive yourself. In T8 the LESS you spam, the more you have chanced to unalive yourself. Its ass backwards!
Funny part is, I've seen some newcomers with around 100h in T8 complain about the oppisite: "mfkr just holds back and I cant kill him, scrub ass nugget play the game". To me it looks like they targeted people who play 50-150 hours in a game total, occasionally comming back to buy a new skin for their waifu or a new battlepass.
I'm not one of those people, so after ~700 hours in T7 & T8 combined I'm no longer playing reguralry. This game is for the PAYERs not the PLAYERs, and it makes me sad.
They definitely went for the casual audience. I get it they want to expand the game, but they don’t have to destroy the old fanbase to do it.
I wouldn’t say it’s gone I don’t think you’re wrong I just think you’re over playing it. but we’re getting another balance patch have faith. Look how 7 turned out in the end.
Hey we are all entitled to our own opinions.
@@TheChilledScrub facts
It's designed to make you not want to defend and just slap buttons. It's the same philosophy behind SF5 which made that game awful. Normals doing recoverable damage is a huge mistake.
Exactly I REALLY hated SFV awesome s oundtrack though.
Don't try to play high level tekken by yourself. If you had just used the replay system it would've immediately shown you how lackluster your "defensive style" actually is because of how many times its going to pause and show you a missed punish. Trying to actually play this way without actually having full fundamental defensive knowledge is just going to hold you back. This is Tekken 8, mash downjab, mash rage art, mash your broken powercrush. If you just sit there and let them run at you, you're going to get run over especially if you don't actually have real defensive knowledge of the character. You don't need super insane korean level defense to make it to the high ranks. You SHOULD learn common strings and counterplays of the characters you fight and make use of the replay system. Don't fall into the same trap I did because you will get stuck at a certain rank. You have to learn Tekken 8 style of play.
There’s no way we were watching the same gameplay. I’m not stuck at blue ranks I breeze right through them.
@@TheChilledScrub Judging by your prowess your max is tekken king which is not far off. Regardless all my points still stand
Tekken Emperor with several characters and my point still stands you couldnt have watch the gameplay in the actual video because I point out often what I did wrong and right.
@@TheChilledScrub Sure you pointed out a couple things but you don't have the absolute knowledge of the replay system telling you things and you also aren't in game to take over and redo situations. What's the point of watching replays without actually labbing and practicing the situations. If you were in the replay you would've known Heihachi d/b2 is -18 the first time it was blocked. You would've known that you can duck broken toy and the guard break after heat smash. Or that d/b2 is actually +6 on hit and hopkicking after even though resulted in a launch for you, is a terrible option. In fact I know you don't actually lab situations because you think you can always jab reina ff2 when there are 3 options it loses to. How many moments in here were you like "I don't know whats going on here." THEN FIGURE OUT WHATS GOING ON. Thinking this style is working because you have multiple characters at emperor is just dumb. You will and probably have already started to plateau.
@@kractive6192 You actually don’t listen and one of the people who actually let there ranks get to there head. I don’t know if this is rage bait or not.
I know that heihachi d/b2 is launch punishable on block. I also know it plus 6.
When it comes to the Reina situation I know you don’t listen because often said that jab checking ff2 on block is situation and you also see me take the safer option and step it. Since you want to be one of those type of people if you jab check and she goes for the 4 option she will get floated . If you block it she’s plus 4 and it her turn to keep going.
Please stop being a condescending person and actually try to listen. I’ve watched your gameplay and it’s far from perfect because neither one of us are pro level players. You don’t see me calling out every single fault in your play. Have a good day.
Raw/ neutral Heat engagers are one of your best defensive tools when you want to be defensive especially when you know your turns about to end or has ended, it gives you enough time to setup up a new option.
I like playing neutral as well i use to barely use heat outside of moves that lead into heat engaers and combos but now i take my turn back all the time. Basically like a universal parry or CH option.
Edit: also that heihachi was pretty bad, nothing against you. But i have a strong feeling hes not a mishima player.
The lack of wavu into mix as well as electrics give it away.
As a Mishima main wavu wavu in ewgf doesn’t make you a good Mishima player. That just means you have good execution.
Heihachi is my secondary character and in the first players defense...popping heat whenever you can is priority number 1 just to make sure you have access to Warrior Instinct in the final rounds.
Great video tho! This game definitely needs infinite rematches especially for those like me who only played Tekken casually off an on over the years. I don't know all the strings and minus on block stuff. I do use the replays for stuff I'm completely baffled about. I like the adaptations of longer sets with friends
Nothing better when you are adapting in real time.
Yeah I notice the heihachi player was doing that by the second game.
Lower the background music a little bit, thanks for the info bro.
Gotcha in the video thanks for the feedback.
your speaking facts fam everything tracks and realign and the forced 50/50s and push forward moves destroyed neutral poking characters hitting like trucks and chip damage on block plus heat and 2 launches and sum pokes or 1 50/50 and your dead this makes the game worst. This game needs game changing patches hopefully on season 2 they can fix everything. See u in season 2.
I say remove heat and chip damage and will fix a good chunk of the problem.
Subbed bro
That’s why I’m not intrested in this game anymore. I’m ready for vf6 bc everything is so plus even though sidesteps are barely better for me that’s not enough.
I feel that.
Honestly I dropped this game because of the problems you mentioned. The game is a race to see who can spam safe, plus on block, armored heat engagers for the win. The game dumbed down characters to the point they brain dead. They made characters that took skill to use at high levels easy to use and made already easy characters to use even easier to play with.
Defense is the biggest knowledge check sidestepping is the thing everyone needs to learn they buffed it for a reason backdashing was boring so they nerfed it and if you’ve played 2d games like street fighter there’s the saying of take the throw in Tekken it’s take the low you don’t have to block everything not hating just kinda clarifying the design.
You rephrasing things I already said. I said that during the heihachi match. Sometimes it’s better to take the db2 or step it rather than trying to black it and eat a launching mid.
I like Tekken 8. 7 was dreadful with people backdashing all day waiting for a whiff
i feel like they should buff KBD but in tekken 8 you rarely need to do more than 3 or 4 in a row. Any more than that and your just putting your own back against the wall
The want to force more range one in your fave kind of fights. Reminiscent of Tekken 4.
tekken8 punishes the fact that you aren't agressive. defence is too hard to be held. so you have to use your frame knowledge to assert your domination over the enemy. and you also have to think about your offence to keep it. I love the game
You don’t have to think about your offense as much. A lot of moves that used to be launch punishable are no more.
Ive seen tekken emperor Kuma with 44 defense. All you need to know about T8 meta
44 defense kind of proves my point does it not. I have a 80+ offense and a 90+ defense. With multiple Tekken emperors. I understand the meta I just don’t like it.
jabbing reina after ff2 is bad. she is +2 on block. 3 is i12 so it clash with you she does way more damage and is +10. her armor crush blocks it and resets. and the low just beats it out right. the only option jab beat is 4, 1, and the grab. those are her mid options. your better off ducking at least you get a launcher.
What did I do in the video. Also what did I say. Directly quote what I said.
@@TheChilledScrub yes but you still gave horrible advice. saying you should jab her when jabing only is good against 4 because you get a float. other than she wins most of than it way more in her favor. the only reason the reina didnt win is because the dont know their own options.
@spectri1990 The Reina tried multiple options and got stuffed then went for the smarter option which was both
@@TheChilledScrub not true she kept trying to cancel to watch and see if you pressed and that option can be hit with jab. so, she didn't fix the problem of you defaulting to the jab often or just blocking. if she would've went for 3 or 3+4. that would've dealt with the jab or just blocking forcing to duck and open you up more. but instead, she only went for options that jab would normally beat. 4 and 1 or just not pressing. it wasn't until the final two round when she went for 3 and the low more and she did much better. I don't think she actually knew why it was working tho more so just pressing ff2 into options.
Watch again the Reina player went for 3 and I stepped and blocked.
Please be sure to watch all of it before trying to critique me. I even pointed it out.
offense dominates even at the pro level. Maybe not as much as in casuals but just watch say the STL finals from a couple ago buttons were constantly being pressed. Pros just dont do dumb shit like press at -6 or worse
Anything -9 or below is safe. Pro take risk all the time. The reason why pro players don’t go crazy is because of how solid their defense is.
Tekken 8 in particular forces you to be more aggressive even KNEE has complained about it.
agree totally. musics too loud
I lower it next time thanks for the call out.
Facts smh