Overanalyzing House of the Dragon, Part 4: The Great Council of 101
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- And now with Fire and Blood, we come to the rather important, but not really important at all, Great Council of 101. It is the incredible precedent-setting event that set no precedent. But, a bunch of people did gather and Rhaenys was screwed over again.
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House of the Dragon is an upcoming American fantasy drama television series created by George R. R. Martin and Ryan J. Condal for HBO. It is a prequel to the television series Game of Thrones (2011-2019) and is based on Martin's 2018 novel Fire & Blood. Set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones[2] the series chronicles the beginning of the end of House Targaryen, the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war, known as the "Dance of the Dragons", and the war itself. House of the Dragon received a straight-to-series order in October 2019 with casting beginning in July 2020 and principal photography beginning in April 2021 in the United Kingdom. The first season of the series is scheduled to premiere in 2022 and will consist of ten episodes.
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Intersting detail that Gyldayn says that Saera's claim is better than her son but never says it for Rhaenys even though it should be the same.
he is saying that her claims were stronger than those of her foreign sons born likely born from prostitution not that hers is particularly strong in the grand scale of things.
I always found this Great Council very interesting, partly because it reveals just how ridiculous it is to suggest Dany is “the last Targaryen” or that there are only a handful of their descendants left in the world. It always bothered me that the Targaryen family tree expands so rapidly during their reign but suddenly contracts to just a few people in a matter of decades (the Starks have a similar problem). There are just so many Targaryen lines who just disappear from the historical record. Essos and the Seven Kingdoms probably has hundreds of Targaryen descendants lingering around - some of them very recent. There are likely tons of Blackfyres and we know Aerion Targaryen had some sons in Essos during his exile. There’s also a bunch of bastards and Pre-Aegon’s Conquest marriages as well. The idea that Dany or Jon would be the “last heirs” of the Targs is just silly.
absolutely
I mean, it’s one thing to be a descendant of a royal family- it’s another to be a legitimate claimant.
Daenerys is not the last person with Targaryen blood, and she never was (recall that the basis for putting Robert on the throne was that his grandmother was a Targaryen and the founder of his house was a Targaryen bastard.) She is however the only person who can legally take the Targaryen name under Westerosi law. All of those Targaryen descendants are either bastards or part of Essos noble houses. So even though they are Targaryen descendants, they are not Targaryens themselves.
there is also the son of rhaenera who forgot who he was and lived the rest of his life as a simpleton peasant likely gaving baseborn common Children
I'm convinced that this series will end with George saying "and literally everyone has Targ blood"
I love how when it comes to Saera's kids, Gyldayn is like "this is absurd! Saera is clearly the stronger claimant, not her kids!!!", but half a second later with Rhaenys and Laenor, that goes right out the window.
“You though you had read these books, but actually you had not understood them at all and had missed the best parts”, the UA-cam channel, with a new installment: “you didn’t even understand the simplest, most straightforward books of the series.”
1/2.
Punctuation goes inside the quotation marks, with only a handful of exceptions for Brit journalists and technical usages.
@@broastedgarlic7354 If grammar hinders understanding, change grammar, unless you're beholden to a publication's standards, which @Gvntb is not 🤣 was this a serious reply...?
@@tjosiahhaynes" it's the best reply ever. ;)"
@@broastedgarlic7354How do you know Gvntb *isn't* a British journalist? 🖋️
Part of me was like “We get it! Rhaenys should be queen!” But once you think about how often the Maester tries to obfuscate this it makes sense to say it over and over again
"His Grace faced a nettlesome dilemma"
There we have it. Proof that Nettles is he one true queen and they stole her throne.
I love so much Nettles...she's Arya if she was born a Targaryen. Listen, she and that crazy broad Alys Rivers (Aemond's baby mama) both survived the Dance (and Daemon's body was never formally recovered) so I've always rooted for her to be off in the Vale, burning young Mountain clansmen while Alys became...somebody. That bitch was a bastard of Harrenhal, so I can't put anything past her. I'd love if she were like Melisandre or Quaithe secretly.
@@clownpendotfart Lol holy shit, I totally DID say she was a Targaryen, my bad lol, I meant to say dragon rider. Dear old gods...my dumbass mistake lol
Everything could be improved with more Nettles
She could be a dragonseed, though. Obviously she doesn't have Targ looks, but she could be mixed race. Some Targ kings had brown or even dark hair, so their genes don't always show phenotypucally if they're not born of incest.
@@TheAstroWitchLux yeah but it’s cooler if she’s not a Targaryen
I had considered myself a thoughtful and intelligent reader, but wow are my eyes open now. I have listened to Fire and Blood several times and I am familiar with the stories. I was always aware there was implied bias and falsehoods. I don’t know if it was because I was listening and not reading, but I took almost everything at face value. 😅
The things you are saying a clear and easy to understand. Yet if you had asked me how did Aemon die I would’ve confidently said errant crossbow. Was Jaeharis and Allysan great rulers and lovers? Of course!
I can see why this kind of text would be a delight for someone like Martin to write. But boy is it mentally taxing to comprehend. He’s a master at conveying ideas without typing everything out.
I am very much enjoying your video series. Often I have to pause and just look at the marriage/children charts. The names are the hardest things to keep straight. Thank you for putting so much time and effort into this analysis. And God bless Martin for creating a fiction so vast and solid as to be a source for countless UA-cam videos. So few works can stand the weight of heavy analysis.
I love how you have become immune to the Jaehaerys Targaryen kool-aid. I never really questioned that he was anything but the "idolized great-king" until your video.
The more I think about it with Rhaenes the more I think you’re right. Even looking at someone like Gerald the Golden of Casterly Rock, when his brother passed early his daughter was lady of Casterly Rock. Even though she was only a child, it wasn’t until she passed that Gerold was allowed into succession.
Another person who was in a similar situation as Rhaenys is Aerea Targaryen (daughter of Aegon the Uncrowned) who under normal Westerosi law would have been ahead of Jaeherys himself in line of succession. Had she been born a boy, Aerea would have no doubt acsended. A reason Jaeherys was pushed as the chosen one was because the nobles needed a male claimant to oppose Maegor The Cruel. However, there is no evil uncle to overthrow during the time of Rhaenys so she should have been the choice.
Fun Facts about the Citadel:
1- The oldest building in the Citadel is the Ravenry, located on the Isle of Ravens. It houses both black and white ravens; black ravens congregate around the resident weirwood and the white ravens reside in the west tower. Weird that there's a weirwood (Bloodraven sees ALL). Apparently it was the haunt of an ancient pirate, before the Hightowers I think.
2- A pair of sphinxes flank the gates of the Citadel...wings of an eagle, body of a lion, tail of a serpent, face of a woman and man (lol...all I can think is dragon). And I think about the lone lady Valyrian sphinx Tyrion sees in the Velvet Hills, the male mate off in Vaes Dothrak. Hmmmmm.
3- The Scribes' Hearth holds a statue of Daeron I, and his sword is pointed towards Dorne (ummm...WAT?) I know they're classic rivals (the Reach and Dorne), but c'mon...a statue of a war-mongering Targaryen teenager just because he engaged your enemy? Seems weird.
4- From the Weeping Dock, one can get a voyage to the Bloody Isle (sign me the fuck up, sounds legit)
Is it just me or does GRRM have a thing for the Muppets with House Tully (Grover, Kermit, Oscar and Elmo?)
It can't be a coincidence haha
Or that part where Arthur Dayne had a banana in his ear?
Yeah kindoff, all the Tully names in fire and blood are actually based on the Muppets.
One of the few tongue-in-cheek references that I actually can't look past. It completely takes me out of the story I cannot take the Tully history serious at all!
@@SpirusOfH It's not ment to be taken seriously, similar in a way to Renly's Peach offer to Stannis.
One thing I just noticed: They held the council at a castle far way from the coast.
So the Sea Snake's fleet has no power there, while the later greens (Westerlands and Reach) bring huge armies.
On the subject of boats, is it important that Harrenhal is rather inland? Sure, Corlys can amass as big a fleet as he wants, but Daemon's hired swords WOULD be more influential on the ground. Whereas if they'd held the council at literally any of the largest cities in the realm, the fleet could've made an appearance.
It's definitely not a coincidence the voting was moved further away from Driftmark.
That would on whether they can sail directly to the God's Eye, I guess.
8:52 the story is very optimistic as GRRM had a co-author 😆
What I find hilarious about them deciding on Viserys as Jaehaerys' heir in 101, is that he only has a four year old daughter (Rhaenyra) at this point. Wouldn't one consider the heirs of the heir? It is certainly done to death with Rhaenys The Red Queen. What if Queen Aemma never has a boy? (She doesn't of course). Would a different queen's male heirs come first, even if not more Targaryen? (Um, hello welcome to the Dance of the Dragons). The Maesters knew they could either attempt to install a more Citadel-friendly crony on the Throne, or set more (female) Targaryen against less (male) Targaryen. They did both somehow lol.
When I think of it this way, of course it was all planned.
No because Viserys was only 24 which left a lot of time for him to have sons plus he had his brother Daemon as a male heir
@@billychops1280 But not male heirs with as much Targaryen blood as his daughter, and I do think that's partly why Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir...he wished he'd had a son with Aemma rather than Alicent. And I doubt anybody other than the Rogue Prince himself (cue music) wanted Daemon Targaryen on the Throne...that man was HATED by the Citadel. How do we know? Because of Fire and Blood...that book doesn't say one damn good thing about him (and he was totally a rogue...good AND bad) so fuck Oldtown. So sure Viserys has more sons, but had they been Aemma's, Rhaenyra could have married one...and crisis (Dance of the Dragons) averted. Even had he married Alicent, that son would have been THE heir. I mean, things could still get messy but maybe not in the same way, especially if Rhaenyra had sons. It just seems like the heir problem could be theorized ahead of time, I mean one (the Citadel) should consider all possibilities so one is never surprised (thank you Little finger) lol.
@@hopedixon2133 well I definitely agree about the part where Rhaenyra was more targaryen than her half brothers and I absolutely hate the greens and your spot on about viserys wanting a son with Aemma, he had one named Daeron who Rhaenyra considered her only true brother but he died very soon after birth, and personally I don’t think Daemon was a evil man or anything like that, I just think he’s a no nonsense get shit done kinda guy, he’s been like that all his life, and the solution that Daemon and Rhaenyra’s marriage offered was that their children were more targaryen than any other living targaryen except maybe Daemon himself, and their taking over the throne as kings would also insure that the targaryen family stayed on the throne and ruled, I’m a huge supporter of the blacks but I wasn’t a huge supporter of the Velaryons bastards ngl
@@hopedixon2133 and the fact that Viserys had Vaemond Velaryon’s tong ripped out for complaining that his ancestral seat is being taken by bastards is kinda dumb, Vaemond was right
Another great chapter in the series. In the main series, it is a lot less clear that the Oldtown powers are so hostile to the Targaryens even with Marwyn's claim. In the Great Council though it is a lot more visible. The whole thing is presented like a neat and tidy decision when we know damn well that doesn't often happen in Westeros. I can't help but feel a bit angry on Rhaenys' behalf since the council and the history runs roughshod over her with every excuse in the book. I'm only half surprised there isn't a veiled question of whether she is actually a bastard or something. It can't get much worse.
@@clownpendotfart True
It's kind of funny, because the hints are all there. Plenty of people, wise men and women, distrust the Maesters. Yet everyone I talk to about Fire and Blood seems to take the book at face value. I'm glad you're making this series. Now I have someone else's well spoken analysis to point people to... But of course I get treated like a conspiracy loony when I talk about it. Keep up the great work PJ 💜
The Andals andMaesters are the biggest liars in the entire world
The maesters are going to regret killing the dragons once they found out what's happening beyond the wall.
@@blaubeer8039 people who read the text like that are so easily duped its almost funny. They're the types who probably just eat up propaganda.
@@marcostargaryen4181 bro they wouldn’t believe the others are real till they are at their doorstep
@@billychops1280 that's why I rooting for euron to burn that city to the ground.
Is it odd that we hear more about an elephant attending than any of the dragons? I could see why its a bad idea to bring an adult dragon to a place with a lot of people and little food, especially if their dragonriders are engaged in fierce debate nearby (then again, there's a lot of dragons living in King's Landing, and we don't hear about any Hazzeas there). Why didn't Laenor's shoulder-parrot dragon make an appearance? Unless Seasmoke had reached his angsty teenaged phase and Laenor was having trouble controlling him? It would be interesting if the Council had a "no dragons allowed" rule (odd that it isn't mentioned in the text); this would stack the deck further towards Viserys.
My guess is his intention in describing the elephant is that this claimant hails from the elephant side of Volantis, thus perhaps Saera Targaryen and her "kingdom" has support of or is made up of Elephant Volanteense. If memory serves, I believe the Elephants (in current times at least) want peace, stability, and most of all, good trade for they are often merchants (my guess is also more practical than the war-loving Tigers). Saera Targaryen always makes me think of the Widow of the Waterfront, and I wonder if they are secret parallels.
The hundred years war started after a similar sort of council in real life. The king of england was the legitimate king of france based on primogeniture, but such a monarch would have been too powerful. Luckily for them the french lords from then had a trick up their sleeves. Recently a female heir had been passed in sucession, the true reason was that their were suspicions that she wasn't legitimate. The council however used the fact to claim that it had always been the law of france that kingship never passes through daughters.
oh yeah, the whole Salic Frank law fallacy that Philip V had brandished to bar his brother's daughter (the alleged illegitimate one, see the Nesle tower scandal) from the crown.
...and ironically had the same effect on daughters when he died without a male heir.
...and indeed was used against Edward III of England, closest relative of Philip IV via his mother Isabel, who did NOT have an affair with William Wallace, regardless of what Randall Wallace would have us thing.
Edward III wasn't the heir to France by primogeniture, he was heir by proximity excluding females. Louis X left a son and a daughter, but the son was not long for this world. Louis's brother Philip promised to respect the rights of his niece Joan, but instead usurped the throne citing that women couldn't inherit. When Philip himself died with no son (but daughter), his brother Charles inherited.
Charles himself died with daughter and no sons, leaving the succession unclear because he was the youngest brother. Had primogeniture held, his niece Joan would have succeeded his brother Louis, but this didn't happen. If proximity without excluding females held, his daughter Beatrice would have inherited.
His sister Isabella, though, claimed that even though she couldn't be Queen because of her gender, her son Edward could claim the throne of France because he wasn't a woman. Edward would have been Charles IV's closest living *male* relative; Charles's daughter and sister were obviously his closest living relatives period, but Edward of England was his only nephew, giving him a claim.
What was the name of the council?
Actually there was by the time Isabel & Edward III a strong precedent of male-only inheritance, and because of that there was no way that Edward could inherit, and his being an enemy of French allies (i.e. the Scots), along with his failing to show up to press his claim (in the 1320s), and that he was a child at the time and that England had been an enemy of France just a few years before, and there was also the memory of centuries of antagonism and occasional conflict from the John & Edward I reigns, Edward III had no right. Later, when he did press his claims, he forfeited them by breaking the 'rules of war' as they were perceived to exist in France.
The big problem with his claim though is the precedent of ignoring female-descended lineages, it is sexist but it was a fact of life by 1327. As Philip IV's sons had established this precedent quite firmly into the recent legal structure of France, in regards to the crown, and then there was the ignoring of certain female descended lines in 987 when Hugues Capet was elected in place of any daughters of the other 'better' Carolingian-descended heirs to the crown.
When a line broke in France, it was common practice for the feudal lords to elect the next dynasty/king, as in the case of 751 with Pepin the Short, 987 with Hugues, and in 1327 with Philippe VI. So no, the Rhaenys precedent did not happen in France in 1327, as Isabel and Edward had no legs to stand on legally to claim the French crown. It was up to the feudal lords and the Church, they chose the nearest male line as had happened before, and they chose the Capet-Valois line (and all the disasters that came later to an extent). Not saying I agree with the decision but that in 1327 it was firmly in the hands of France to decide and it chose legal precedent rather than newfangled options such as the King of England.
@@thebrotherskrynn election was the precedent but the problem hadn't arisen before, male only primogeniture didn't really exist before, I can't remember from which historian i get this from but the tour de Nesle affair did seem to have set a precedent
The story of Jaehaerys' alleged bastard reminds me of the story of Perkin Warbeck. He was the man who claimed to be one of the dead Princes in the Tower and spent years trying and failing to become the King with support from locals.
Much like the alleged bastard of Jaehaerys, Perkin Warbeck was sentences to death after being imprisoned following his push to become the King. If this comparison is true and the book is like reality, the bastard was taken to live with the royal family for a while before being executed. He was only axed in real life because he tried to escape after months of house arrest.
I read this book but missed some of the nuances of the politics involved. One of the reasons I love this channel, points out the intricate details and proposes interesting possiblities
As an accountant, I love hearing mathematics referred to as an arcane art
The Lannister and Tyrells knights count makes it seem like a setup for a potential coup.
I wouldn't put it past them. I know it's blatantly obvious, though I still love the little detail about how Matthos Tyrell brought five hundred men to one-up Tymond Lannister. Still trying to one-up one another hundreds of years later.
A 26-minute video just to prove that little Monterys Velaryon is the rightful king in 300 AC. Brilliant.
I question the real threat for Jaehaerys at this time...
You state clearly that Rhaenys has the better claim, by primogeniture, but discarded for her gender in favour of Viserys. A weaker claimant.
However we know that Family name means a lot. Could it be possible that the maesters, septons and Lords favour Viserys more because it would prevent a Velaryon usurpation of the Iron throne by stealth?
Is it not possible that Jaehaerys sees all this unfolding before him and this stress, on top of old age, makes him more withdrawn and make insane acts to get away from it?
He knows Rhaenys has the better claim and should follow him, but he knows if he does, the Targaryens become the new Velaryons. A lesser house.
I often wonder the same thing. I think Rhaenys would keep her last name Targ, but surely Leanor is Valerion. Queens keep their family name Cersei Lannister.
So I wonder how this works in the realm.
I believe they cover this in one of the bran chapters, a glover with some hornwood blood could change his last name to hornwood to inherit the lands, if a Velaryon inherits the iron throne, theyd probably just change their name to Targaryen, for legitimacy, no big deal.
Do you mean Rhaenys, not Rhaenyra?
@@made-line7627 Yes, I do. Thank you.
So that's why they made them black in the show....so that way it's just stopping black people from ruling. Lol. This show is going to be trash and racist.
I would love to see you and GRRM discuss this at length.
It’s weird that the starks chose the female side both times but there is no record of a female lord of winterfell in 8,000 years, only the sea stone chair is the same (but that was semi-elective) and maybe house gardener ?
"it was all very optimisticbecause he had a co-author." makes me laugh because when you mentionedit's a female my brain went "ah so she either gets murdered, raped, or both right?"
In the case of that book, the female heroine gets injured severely and has to give up her craft to teach IIRC... the co-author was George's ex, btw...
@@TheGreenBard ah haaa. honestly it's almost tragic
Wow Preston, loving this series. Thank you.❤️
I believe you're downplaying sexism too much. For Westerosi society, being female is a big issue that absolutely weakens Rhaenys claim. Also, in Westeros, we don't have precedence of a male consort. Choosing Rhaenys would have made Corlys king, for practical means, and probably the main intrigue of the story comes from that point, instead of some Maesters' plot.
Yet daughters inherit before uncle's If all the sons are dead. They can have female rulers that is expecting to be married off
@@wisdommanari6701 By the laws of succession, yes, but how many times have those laws being bypassed? Also, and that's my point, the big issue is not that women can't inherit, is the place that woman's husband takes. Even in our world until recent times most queens have mostly been single women or widows, many times regent for their child.
@@Ciberbuster I think Preston's actually on point. The maesters may be a patriarchy of sorts themselves, but the archmaesters legit don't care about the sex of the rulers, at least not personally. The maesters care about _dragons,_ names, getting rid of dragons. Preston thinks that the ability to hatch dragons is a female-only thing, and he might be right or wrong about that, but if it were the other way around and there was a male heir with a strong dragon who might lead to more dragons getting born, and a female heir with no prospect of hatching more dragons, the maesters would push for the female.
@@migarsormrapophis2755 I know about the maesters' plan indeed, but also I believe Preston reads too much into conspiracies and factions master plans, were probably, there is a more simple answer. In this case I believe is more about houses seeking power (Corlys trying to be the true king behind a Targaryen versus the Reach's lords) than some maesters work reaching even to the guy writing the story. I maybe wrong of course.
@@Ciberbuster eh, who knows
This Series is Incredible 🔥🔥🔥
A small group of nobles choosing a king isn't democracy, it's still a monarchy, it's just an elective monarchy rather than a hereditary one.
I love the idea of an American fed explaining all the ways special interests can manipulate a democratic vote **in fiction** lol love you Preston
Fed?
@@Jotari preston works for the us state department
@@gcash8892 I was unaware of that. I thought it was an acronym for something.
GRRM clearly loves his unreliable narrators so much that it makes me wonder how he actually writes his stories. Does he think of a true chain of events first and then add in all the obfuscations and misdirections? Or does he just write what comes to his mind without really thinking about what truly happened, using the unreliable narrator as an excuse for potential plot holes or contradictions? I really don't know which one it is because crazy fans like Preston will always be able to connect dots and see patterns - even when there might not actually be any. Does there really exist a Maester conspiracy to exclude Rhaenys from ruling because of some power of hers to hatch dragons? It sounds very plausible. But how would this ever be revealed to us as readers? Is George planning on having Sam overhear some secret conversation between the Archmaesters where we find out all the ways they managed to slowly kill off the dragons? Or is it just a convenient way for George create possible conspiracies and mystery without ever really expanding on it?
Finish the damn book, Preston.
Yeah, it's been like, DAYS!!! How long does he expect us to wait?!? The sloth of this man...
Just imagine if he loses interest in that project. This joke will be eternal lol
The text all makes sure to erase Rhaenys claim so we won't tie her claim and situation to Daena the Defiant
*slaps the roof of Fire and Blood*
This bad boy can fit so much subtext and implications in it
How much are we supposed to think about Daena the Defiant's passed over claim in all this? How much of this justification from Gyldane is to deny the Blackfyre claim?
I believe Daena had a better claim then we are led to believe, as she would have lady in waitings + possibly their fathers, and small folk of the castle who helped her escape - there is also possibility that she hatched a dragon as she claimed to be born to ride a dragon, not to mention she is the heir of Baelor instead of her uncle according to the realm's law of succesion
i always wondered why the council was held at Harrenhall, surely Kingslanding is still the better choice. But Harrenhall as a location prevents Corlys from turning up with his entire fleet to show off his wealth and power
Kinda odd that the Starks favor the Velaryons over Viserys methinks, given how many of Winterfell’s rulers were women. If there was ANYONE who would be happy to buck precedent and side with Viserys, would’ve thought it would be the Starks. Could this hint at the influence of the septons, if one of the few groups present who doesn't care about their sermons sides with the Velaryons?
I mean, just because they vote for Laenor doesn't mean the Starks are good egalitarians who support female line succession. They could just believe that it would be easier to build their powerbase (and revoke the unpopular reforms of Jaehaerys and Alysanne) under a child monarch like Laenor.
There are a few things going on at once. There could be Northern politics with the Starks and Dustins following the Manderlys, who in turn want to make good with the Velaryons who are so influential in the Narrow Sea. It's implied that these houses invested plenty of wealth for the Velaryon cause, so while it probably helped that the Starks, Dustins, and Blackwoods weren't persuaded by the Faith, their decision was probably already made based on alliances.
You would think that the Starks would want to uphold their tradition of exclusive rule by men, though. I think it must be that either the Manderlys/Velaryons/Baratheons/Blackwoods gave them too strong a reason to invest, that the Starks couldn't make their decision based on rhetoric at all; or that the reason Winterfell is never ruled by women has little to do with the reason Rhaenys or Laenor should be chosen over Viserys. That could point to something special about Winterfell, maybe connected to the sex discrimination in the Night's Watch, or something special about the Targaryens and their dragons, that makes them less comparable situations.
yeah I agree; the Starks are definitely definitely not angels, and are probably the poorest (and thus most easily bribed) of the great lords. There's also the Three Sisters, a strategically located disputed territory between the North and the Vale that could be used as a naval base to blockade White Harbor. Team Viserys is tied to the Vale and would probably favor keeping the islands as part of the Vale, but Team Velaryon might have promised the Sisters to the North in exchange for their support.
I would venture to guess that the Starks would vote in favor of the Velayrons because the opposite is more of what they have endured with Jaehaerys.
Looking at it from the perspective of the Northern lords, they were just forced to give up The New Gift to the Night's Watch AND they were banned from Lord's Right to the First Night (at least on paper) as well as giving their bastards to the Watch, who would in turn give them to The Others to prevent a war with Westeros.
Their alternative, the Oldtown faction, are driven by The Faith. They wouldn't stop what Alysanne had done. They think those practices are vile and The Citadel apparently even supported the partitioning of The New Gift when the Lord of Winterfell challenged the legality of it.
All the Velayron faction need to do is promise to undo some of these reforms through backdoor negotiations with Lord Ellard and they have his vote, as well as the entirety of The North.
Perhaps it lies in this: if a technical Velaryon is sitting the Iron Throne, would the Starks "assume" that the peace they made with Aegon the Conqueror was now null and void? They made a pact to kneel to the dragon (Targaryens)...and the Velaryons are not "dragons" (even though they literally have dragons too). I might be wrong but perhaps this was a loophole they attempted to exploit to free themselves of the grip of the Iron Throne. I mean, the Starks also supported Rhaenyra Targaryen, and her heir apparents were her three Velaryon sons, so until their deaths, there was a chance Velaryon would have been the name on the Throne.
Again it's also readable as east coast vs west coast as power center, and the Tyrells, Lannisters and Hightowers vs. Velaryons (or Lannisport and Oldtown vs Driftmark with Gulltown and White Harbour in support). Love it
But the Vale supports Viserys' claim, because Daemon is married to a Royce.
@@juanpablomina1346 that is true. Damn. Still doesn't change the power dynamic between Driftmark vs Oldtown and Lannisport tho (and might explain why the both Viserys and Daemon needed to be married to Vale families both that's streching it :) )
I can't help but wonder if the Princess of Dorne is meant to be a foreshadowing of events (that are never likely) to come in Winds of Winter.
Arianne shows up in Aegon's camp and witnesses him conquer Storm's End. He calls for all loyal Targaryen bannermen to arrive and show their support for the rightful King at his new fortress and base of operations.
Dany either shows up soon after the convening of local lords (mostly Storm Lords) or makes her looming presence known enough that the issue of who has the greater claim is brought up. Aegon has the army right there so he wins a mock Great Council that represents 1/70th of all the lords of Westeros
Arianne is either spurned as a potential wife and exists merely as a POV chapter OR Arianne realizes that supporting him would mean death and tries to escape, but is captured and seen as a traitor for fleeing and gets paraded around like Asha is up North. Aegon waits for winter to die down a bit before making his move. Then Dany arrives and the Second Dance all but inevitably begins.
I am a simple man, I see a Preston video and I like it.
one thing you might miss , is that unlike the Andel houses , , the Valyrian houses has some different rules for inherent which is more male dominants. Note that there was never Lady ruling house Velaryon , or house Targaryen.
But more noteworthy , is that in the rouge prince , there was the issue where Jace was 2nd in line to the Throne , and Luke was declared the heir of the Sea Snake. Than, few cousins of the Sea Snake went to the king , and told Laenor was not truly the boys father , and one of the cousins should be heir. I think one of the cousins was executed , the rest lost their tongues , but that is not the point : Corlys has 2 granddaughters by Laena , which should come before the cousins , regadless if Jace, Luke and Joff are bastards or not.
The point is that because the granddaughters twins were skipped , i assume maybe Velaryon inheritance laws are more male-dominant .
I think people who follow this channel already understand this, but I want to voice my agreement: the fact that these history books are written in the perspective of a fictional character of the in-story universe is evidence enough that the words are biased and manipulated. If it was some canon, objective truth, then it would just be the words of Martin himself and not through the filter of a maester.
George regularily quotes "history is written by the victors"
I've absolutely loved watching this series you breaking it all down and making us think 🤔 like really think about it not just taking it at face value is impressive. I'll definitely be watching this through different eyes when it premiers this summer
...And there, we're mostly caught up with what may go down in season 1.
And may be warned in case things happen differently from what Fire & Blood wrote.
...And now I'm not gonna be too sad when Oldtown gets sacked by Euron.
I don't think Daemon should be underestimated just because he only has a dozen men-at-arms facing the Velaryon fleet after all he is Daemon Targaryen the Rouge Prince [Insert music here]
Great video. Really shows how much of a genius Martin is. It sucks the next book has taken forever but can't deny his prowess as an author
Phenomenal work, Preston.
Do you think Saera was used as a weapon against Rhaenys? That is, the Oldtown faction convinced the Velaryons to abandoned Rhaenys' cause and focus on Laenor, because validating female descent would make Saera and her first son a danger to them?
Preston, you need to make a video with AnAmericanThinks here on youtube. He admires you greatly and makes such amazing material on R.R. Martin's works, you really have to talk to this guy, I'm sure you too would hit it off.
Love your content, Preston!
Starks for Rhaenys is weird. Don't they have their own strict rule on "If your genitals don't dangle, you're out"?
Rhaenys created the gift, didn't she? I forget how that ties in.
@@migarsormrapophis2755 It was Alysanne, her mom, who created the New Gift.
Rhaenys herself was probably more into the right of the lord to bang someone else's bride, since Velaryons are said to practice it.
@Ulises Leon something something a female ruler of Winterfell couldn't be forced to give up some of her children to the Others, so the northerners never allowed her that situation to develop
Yeah! Some explanations are that they don't like septons (who like Viserys), or that they were being bribed by the Sea Snake, or that they don't care for Southerners so they just go with the weakest of the two to increase disunity in the South, or that they want good relations with those who control trade on the Narrow Sea, i.e. the Velaryons. But the fact that they shouldn't like Alysanne, who supported Rhaenys, should make them support Viserys. They should also want a weaker monarch, which would be Viserys (no dragon, not smart, etc.). As you said, they don't seem to believe in Westerosi norms of succession, and, by their rules, it should be Viserys (they seem to prefer an adult male, so no Rhaenys and no Laenor).
I think Viserys just wanted to make sure his house remained on the throne, giving it to Laenor would make house Velaryon the new kings of westeros plus I think Viserys cared about his first 5 children more than the rest, but 2 died as children and the other 3 were Aemon Bain and Alyssa, Aemon had no sons so he knew house targaryen would lose its kingship and Baelon and Alyssa had 3 sons but one died, I also think he was a little biased when it came to woman because he had been hurt emotionally by the women of his house more than any other ones (like his older sister his mom and his daughters later on)
BEST SERIES EVER AND STILL GOING.
MEISTER P HAS THE BEST BREAKDOWN OF FIRE AND BLOOD.
IM HYPED FOR BLOOD OF THE DRAGON.
AND IVE BEEN IMPATIENTLY WAITING FOR PART 4.
THANKS MEISTER P 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
Preston vs. Archmaester Gyldayn Part 4
If Laenor were picked, would he have been forced to take his mothers name, or would a Velaryon be king?
Love this series :) thanks
14:10 interesting it starts East then West.
It’s Greek Mythology(sorta): when a king gives up his crown (in this case and with Daenerys: Queen)
Theory, the last two claimants were Boremond and Jocelyn Baratheon; as both of them were the siblings to Jaehaerys and Alysanne
Corlys could take kings landing but he couldn’t hold it
"he shouldn't have trusted Septon Barth ether." Aww. Can there not like be one nice character in this series? I liked Septon Barth. He made a little reference to Jurassic Park.
@@clownpendotfart Excuse me. Auto correct
What do you think about the theory that Alicent Hightower was actually Saera’s daughter? The order of the Greenhand made an entire series about this theory called the Rogue Princess.
It's the only theory I like of theirs other than Mance Rayder is Ser Arthur Dayne. I back both of those as good and plausible theories, personally.
@@hopedixon2133 agreed, I also think Halfhand was Hightower Lord Commander while Oswell Whent seem to be Oswell (Kettleback) who had three nephews
14:05 nowadays all the cities of tents are just full of dope fiends. Crazy.
Imo the maesters have links to the Hightowers going back centuries, and that was a minor reason for their backing Alicent Hightower's line. Which is ironic if Alicent really is Saera's daughter by a Hightower. But thr main reason was killing off the drsgons and weakening the Targs by controlling Viserys who would be indebted to the maesters.
We Have to and I Mean we HAVE to see a Flash back to this Council in the Show! I'm sure we because with the Amount of Lord's that Showed up there Had to be some Major Scheming goin on! and I heard they're using this New technology in the New WB Studio that's some what a Green screen Sound Stafe But it's way more realistic Looking so they wouldn't have to worry that Much about the Cost of Putting together a Council that Big!
Now I want to see some knights go against the valerian navy and caraxes vs meleys over blackwater bay
7:00 there would still be a civil war, tho? One the valarions aren’t in a clear position to win, as seen by how badly they are beaten in the council.
Another one for HOTD! Yay!
They probably could have avoided a lot of headache by making the Great Council a traditional part of the succession.
Preston king! Preston king! Preston king!
Honestly the great council makes no sense. if Rheanys were overlooked once and Jeaheryes decided that Baelon would be heir then Viserys is automatically his heir after his death. Why put forward Rheanys and Leanor again? they have already been disheirented in favor of Bealon and his line.
Being Balerions rider is just as ridiculous as thinking a sword gives you legitimacy… And we’ve seen what Westeros thinks about that.
Can you please make spotify lists of all your youtuve stuff polease I love falling asleep to ur voice
Preston, this is great! One of my favourite series so far!
Rather than going mad, probably just like all the old man. Suffering from dementia and such
PRESTON YOU KEEP ME GOING
You should be writing TWOW
He is 😜
I swear, if he finishes the book before GRRM does...
You keep talking about Rhaenys' claim being the stronger because it favors Westerosi succession, but it literally doesn't. Westerosi succession has always favored whatever mental gymnastics were required to get to a male heir. You can't keep repeating that statement and make it any more truthful because the fact of the matter is by example we can see time and again how male heirs were favored even with a more direct female heir. As a result Laenor's claim was always stronger than Rhaenys.
I do have some questions about this Oldtown conspiracy? How do they know about the genetics of Targaryens and how that affects dragon birthing? How they know the specific genetics of individuals within thr Targaryen family, such as Rhaenys? Why would Maesters of Targaryen descent like Vaegon sabotage their own house?
I'd think they take in consideration precedent on brhalf of who rides a dragon and who not and who hatched a dragon and who not, in regard of jahaerys' daughters they just go after them as a preventive measure
Still i'm not sure about why they would let rhaena around when she clearly hatched dreamfyre, perhaps they just wanted to create conflict over and over again using the tactic of pushing forward a male claimant always that there was a conflict on succesion and so, trying to provoque over and over again the dance of the dragons until they eventually got away with it
Never forget, there's a few super rare dragon books around, and neither we, nor (probably) our targ protagonists know what they say. If there is an Oldtown conspiracy, I think its extremely narrow; I don't think Vaegon is part of it. I think his story relates more to the toxic side of some academic institutions, where people who don't have an orthodox worldview are shunned and not promoted. Vaegon adopts the maester worldview because he's a math nerd and doesn't care about dragons or magic, and then is maybe used by the Oldtown conspiracy to set up the Great Council.
What did you think of the line “for the realm had not yet forgotten the trouble a woman last on the throne had caused “ - which is why they don’t let women rule anymore. What women? When? We aren’t told. Do you think you could try to figure it out?
Thanks
Isn’t the the fact that Jacaerys is played by a white kid proof that Strong or Cole is his real dad? Will this even be brought up? Hmmm…
Yo why do I get the feeling that this video series is going to be better than the show?
The bastards are all likely real bastards. but im trying to figure out the redheaded bastard? what symbolism red dragon the maid a redhead? A Redhead Targ would be something special some of the most important characters are redhead Sansa/Catelyn/Jojen/Howland/the Redwynes/Tully's. if a redhead(old gods/old blood) becomes king or accepted into the targ family and marry's other targs what would that mean.
Jojen and Howland Reed are never specified as having red hair (we don't know either of their hair colors), but I do think it would be interesting to mate a redhead with a Targaryen...that seems to have never really happened to our knowledge.
@@hopedixon2133 its strongly suggeted jojen hair is red and if so that means MM who has red hair is his father.
@@stupidminotaur9735 Where is it strongly suggested? We literally get NO description of Jojen or Howland's hair ever. Meera Reed has dark hair. I'm not saying that they absolutely don't have red hair (I actually think that would be cool) but I do not see your evidence for the point.
@@hopedixon2133 the crags nickname is bog (devils)
@@stupidminotaur9735
1. Where does it say bog devil means redhead? I've searched, and Google is giving me nothing that this is as assumption I should make. It could be that they live in bogs and act like devils...that's all.
2. The archer guy who lives in the swamp south of the Twins? I am unsure of who you mean exactly. Are you thinking of Anguy the Archer, who has red hair and is from the Dornish Marches? In Dorne.
3. Bran notices that Jojen is a Crannogman, nothing more. Sir, you cannot make a red haired assumption based on this. The implication I always got was that Bran recognized him as a Crannogman because he was small...because that is how Crannogmen are described to us, not with red hair. They supposedly mated with the Children of the Forest, who also are not mentioned as having red hair.
4. Bran notices Meera because he reminds her of Arya, and she's pretty. He likes her so he notices her.
Sorry dude, I respect your opinion but I say it is based entirely on assumption unless there's something more you can give me. But I still hope you have a great day, and secretly hope there's a lot more redheads in the story. And I like your name
With these videos reminding me how much I hate the hightowers and the old town crony’s, I want to ask Preston, what is your ending for them in the Wind’s fanfic?
This is all very interesting, but shouldn't you be busy with your Winds of Winter fan project? (j/k)
Viserys can't claim another dragon. Once you've claimed one dragon you bond with it and you can't claim another. At least that's how George has wrote it.
Well, Viserys is our only example. So, everything we extrapolate is from his experience. All other dragonriders either died before their dragon or with their dragon. I mean, unless Rhaenys the Conquerer survived....
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin or if somehow Daemon survived the fall of the battles eye at harrenhal. I just remembered it being said in fire in blood that they can only bond with one dragon but I may remember wrong.
Does this have spoilers???
Haven in a red waste video is marked for kids btw, was watching it and got a bunch of cocomelon recommendations
WE WUZ VELARYIONS AND SHIIIIIEEEEEEET
Oh common Preston. You keep saying that there is no precedent for Rhaenys being discarded on account of her being a woman, but:
1. We don't know. Targaryen 100 year rule is not entire history of southron monarchy. We have 6 kingdoms south of the Neck, each existing several thousand years. There could be plenty precedent for that. When you listed examples of daughter inheriting with no male sibling, you always provided us with ladies, never with queens. For all we know kingdoms may have their own succession laws.
2. Even Targaryen's had precedent not so long ago. Jaehaerys was crowned instead of daughters of Aegon Uncrowned. That's the precedent here. If we say that daughter of first son comes before second son, then entire reign of Jaehaerys was illegitimate. That's precisely what precedent is.
Outside of dorne there isnt any acceptance of women ruling especially ahead of legitmate males, i dont think this makes his vídeos less interesting but is something he should take into account
Your first point is a hypothetical, so you're not contradicting Preston's argument that there is no such precedent. As to Jaehaerys going over Aerea, Jaehaerys seems to think that a son inherits over a granddaughter, as we see when he decides that Baelon becomes heir ahead of Rhaenys. Although I agree that there doesn't seem to be any precedent for that before Jaehaerys. And you see other schools of thought with Alysanne thinking that Daenerys should be queen ahead of her younger brothers. At least Jaehaerys' logic is consistent with his own claim.
Well, the narrator certainly thinks there was such precedent, and we learn that Rhaenys actually lost the vote 20:1. Preston discards this as "there were 20 male candidates and 1 female, so that's 20:1" but that's not true as we pretty much know number of cadidates, and it doesn't make any sense. Arys Oakheart in his chapters calls male-only primogeniture an "ancient andal custom" so it would seem that it is indeed based in pre-targaryen times. That would certainly explain why Northerners are listed among Rhaenys supporters.
And great councils aren't exactly stuff you can just falseify left and right, claiming that there was a 20:1 vote would be easily verifiable. Can't check if that line exists still in F&B but Princess and the Queen had "annals of great council" mentioned, with records about which houses spoke for which faction, with Laena, Laenor and Rhaenys mentioned as the factions that were supported by some houses. And that line is pretty much straight-forward about account of lords, not about amount of claimants. So that 20:1 vote did happened. We can also add that since Baratheons and Starks supported Rhaenys' claim, we can't really say that it was discarded backstage by maesters. As Preston said: that's two great houses, you can't just sweep it under a carpet.
And since it happened we have like 950:50 majority of lords who decided "Yeah, Rhaenys' claim is trash" and the most likely answer is that Gyldain and Arys Oakheart aren't lying. Women are indeed excluded from being monarchs in andal law. It's far more likely than a theory that maesters just frankly told to Lord Baratheon, Lord Stark and Lord Velaryon that Rhaenys won't be even put into a vote.
@@AlexKwiatek Arys Oakheart is talking about Criston Cole going with Aegon II over Rhaenyra, so brother over sister. That is indeed ancient Andal law. But we're talking about a first son's daughter being ahead of a second son's son, so not the same thing.
Back are we and
Are we positive Daemon has a dragon by this point? His elder brother mounted Balerion far earlier, but that might have only served to make Daemon picky
If Caraxes went to the tourney in 98 it was with Daemon, so probably yes. Also, Balerion was pushing 200 while Caraxes was probably closer to 40-50, and would have been riderless for about 9 years at this point. I could see Balerion keeping Daemon off Caraxes if he were old, but Caraxes was a fairly young ‘battle veteran’ at this point and probably a much safer bet
You outright dismiss Gyldayn's claim that Viserys would be the clear heir because that was not yet established as the set line of succession but the eldest male heir had been inheriting the title of lord of the Targaryens well before Aegon set sail from Dragonstone. Why else was Aegon the lord of Dragonstone and not Visenya?
You're comparing brother and sister to cousins
I don't think Westerosi succession favors Rhaenys at all. From what we are told, it is a form of male-preference primogeniture in most of Westeros, a system that would exclude any female candidate as long as there was a viable male descendant. The debate in 101 was on whether the agnatic part or the primogeniture part of the tradition was deemed more important. Primogeniture favored Leanor, whereas proximity and patrilineal priority favored Viserys. Leanor traced his claim to the throne through his mother's lineage (the female line), making his claim weaker by the agnatic succession laws of Westeros.
Great Council is no different from National Convention or Estates General
So…Preston…you have a better understanding of the source material than the writer’s of the show. Just an observation.