The story of Aegnor and Andreth always gets me because of how so close they were to being wed if not for stinkin wartime rules, and Aegnor eventually being slain.
@@valentinkambushev4968 Speaking of which, the last thing a person should do during the upcoming New World Order/7 Year Tribulation is take the mark(666). But you don’t have to be part of the upcoming New World Order/7 Year Tribulation.
I always thought that wartime rule is not so true. It's just that Finrod had no better explanation to give to Andreth. I think that Elves had not come to understand the love of Men, yet. Finrod, during his conversation with Andreth, mistakes her love as a love of despair, so he dismisses it. However, Andreth's answers make me think that hers is a love of hope for the future. Elves did not think about beyond the Song of the Ainur and probably found their young kin, Men, very strange. Later marriages show that some Elves came to understand Men better. So, Andreth won that debate in the long run.
@@myriadmediamusings I once read a heartbreaking fic containing a theory in which an elderly Andreth was last seen walking out onto the ruined battlefield and holding Aegnor’s body in her arms. 😭
One of the many things about Beren and Lúthien’s story that hits so hard is the fact that for most of the story, they had absolutely no idea that Lúthien would become mortal by the end of it. Lúthien fought so hard for Beren all while believing he would be lost to her forever anyway when he grew old, and she’d have to live on without him for the rest of time. But she wasn’t afraid of the mortality difference. She didn’t consider it to not be worth it just because it wouldn’t last. She fought for her love and for them to have a chance at happiness, however ephemeral.
One of my favourite things in Tolkien lore, is the ability of 'ordinary' men and elves to touch the divine and emotionally move the gods and the ainur. They are part of the weave of the world, just as elven lords, men and hobbits and all have an important role to play in the universal composition. Stories are as vital and important to the great as to the small.
@@Enerdhil in all honesty, though, think of how much that nickname must’ve meant to Lúthien. All her life, people had been putting her on a pedestal and praising her physical beauty nonstop. She must’ve often wondered if there was ANYBODY who loved her for who she was and not for her looks. But then here comes this guy who’s never seen her before, and instead of waxing poetic about her looks like everyone else, he compliments her singing - a personal skill that she’s been working on for centuries. His attention is drawn to what she does, not what she looks like. With just one little nickname, he gives her back her personhood.
@@12classics39 That is a very nice assessment of what happened in their first encounter. I was thinking about how much Tolkien loved Edith and wondering if he called her Tinuviel.🤔
Yeah great casting! Liv was excellent for that lore, Viggo also. Whenever there is art design depiction, they always use those actors in combination with the art from the Tolkien (i suppose that there is something like that).
Right! Hands down the #1 tolkien channel on UA-cam. It's the great speaking voice and the maps to show travels and locations, making it that much more immersive
This comment made me feel great bittersweet sorrow and yet joy. Amongst my people the love that is lost, is one of the central themes of our poetry and epics. We call this genre of poetry: "Ghazals", a word which means the mournful call of the doe for her slain stag mate. Tolkeins concept of love is very close to that of mine own people. How curious
Gwindor really seems like a commendably compassionate and level-headed person. Imagine enduring years of captivity, being maimed, and then returning home just to watch your fiancee fall for your new friend - and still trying to protect both of them. I wonder how much of her love of Turin was actually just the working of Morgoth's curse, and if she and Gwindor were reunited in Valinor.
Tolkien was truly a master at writing romance and love that makes you feel for it all over. The fact that it doesn’t take the focus of his works yet still drives many narratives truly shows how powerful his writing was.
I think in Turin's case, he is generally clueless about a lot of things. He is the least perceptive character in the Legendarium. I am sure he blames the Curse for it.😂
I always wonder if the humans the elves gotten close to r more akin to pets than actual equal. Like don’t get me wrong we bond with pets intensely but it’s not the same as with fellow human.
Thank you so much for these videos! Excellent work, and it's a great way to start of my very busy Saturdays. Also, how can anyone even make it through the week without hearing "and Debbi" at least once. So thank you too Debbi!! - and all the other donors who make this possible!
I wonder how could Luthien even befriend Beren. When they first met, he must have had long dirty beard and hair, dirty and torn up clothes, and probably could kill a troll with his smell.
Elves are always half in physical world and half in spiritual world, so may be in spiritual world he looked great, and in the physical world, well..some bathing and grooming usually helps a lot
His appearance hardly mattered to her. What mattered was that he called her ‘Tinúviel,’ which means Nightingale. While literally everybody else in her life put her on a pedestal and worshipped her as the most beautiful being in the world every single day, suddenly here was this guy who knew nothing about her, had no preconceived notions of who she was or should be … and instead of her beauty, he complimented her singing, a skill she’d been working on for years. The first thing he noticed was what she was DOING, not how she looked. He gave her her personhood back.
These videos are super helpful to understand Tolkien's whole work much better! Thank You very much!!! And the videos are always like little Tolkien movies in their own rights, fun to watch and captivating! Well done! Thanks again!
Beren had not yet left the confines of the world. He was still in the Halls of Mandos (where all souls go after death) waiting for Lúthien because she begged him to, knowing that he would only be in the Halls briefly before leaving the world. She wanted to follow him there to say a proper goodbye before he left, not knowing the depth of the pity she would stir in Mandos’ heart. It’s a testament to the depth of his love for her that he was able to refuse the summoning to leave the world and linger in the Halls until she arrived.
@@katherinegraham3803 He's still keeping it in the family. Though with 62 generations difference between Aragorn and Arwen, it is also fair to say that Arwen is a cougar.
Tolkeins concept of love is very close to that of mine own people of the Urdu language. Amongst my people the love that is lost, is one of the central themes of our poetry and epics. We call this genre of poetry: "Ghazals", a word which means the mournful call of the doe for her slain stag mate. How curious.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 Apologies, I assumed. Although a tumultuous country I've always wished to visit the Indus valley, home of one of the earliest civilizations on earth.
@theamazingbatboy It's OK, man. Sometimes I forget that the Internet is a global space, and not everyone will pick up on local terms for poetry and such. Pakistan is a land with its own unique charm amidst the tumults. There are some nice tour operators online who can arrange fully guided tours for you to its peaceful regions such as in the Northern Mountains and along the Indus River. Japanese and European tourists are a common enough site in some parts of the country, in fact. Feel free to ask me for any pointers if you ever feel like planning a short trip.
In the hobbit regarding the unusual attributes of the took family "one of the Took ancestors must have taken a faery bride which is of course absurd, this passage always calls to my mind the many pivotal unions of elf and mortal, so I thank you for this history.
He thought so, too; or at least, the best _love_ story he ever wrote. So much so that the gravestones of himself and his wife, Edith, bear the names 'Beren' and 'Luthien' inscribed under their birth and death dates.
@@mwvidz324 Don't get me started....🤨 Aldarion was the biggest A-hole in the Legendarium, even worse than Turin because he was blessed in Numenor, not Cursed by Morgoth.
@@mwvidz324 What was Erendis's flaw? That she turned into a b!t¢h after Aldarion treated her like 💩 and did the same to her daughter, who grew up isolated from men? How did those flaws form? How (im)patient was she? If Aldarion wasn't an absentee hubby and daddy for decades, the whole family would have lived happily ever after, and Aldarion and Erendis would have had sons and other daughters. The Sea was either Aldarion's drug of choice or his kinky fetish. In either case, he chose the Sea over his family. That dude never should have married. He never had it in him to give up his selfish desires for his nation or his family. Sorry for the rant.
It occurs to me to wonder, if the spirits of men leave Arda and go where only Illuvatar knows, how does Mandos have the power to send him back with Luthien? Or am I just missing something? (I haven't read their full story yet.)
Beren's spirit had not left Arda. It was still in Mandos. (A Man dies, spirit goes to Mandos for a time, then leaves Arda). The fates of Beren and Luthien were due to direct intervention of God.
I'd love an explanation on the fate of Dwarves if there is one. It seems like its the same as men (which wouldn't really make death the gift of "men") but I feel like it makes more sense if they're all reincarnated immediately after death. I think this fits with them starting as tools for Aule but im curious if there is anything on it in the wider legendarium
@@CGChris In The Silmarillion, it’s said that Elves believe dead Dwarves simply return to the stone from which their forefathers came, but Dwarves themselves believe Aulë gathers them into a special section of the Halls of Mandos reserved especially for them, and there they will await the end of days, after which they will join the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar in the Second Music, which will create a new world more beautiful than this one.
@@12classics39 Very interesting thank you! That does kind of sucks for the Dwarves then because their Afterlife reward is they get to sit in Tolkein purgatory watching the Elves go back to the undying lands and Men go hang with Illuvitar
@@CGChris well, Dwarves are the children of Aulë, so they consider it an honor to be in his halls and prepare to help rebuild the world. But Thorin’s company and Gimli undoubtedly missed their hobbit friends.
I've heard the mortality of Men described in Tolkien's works as both the "Doom of Man" and the "Gift of Man". If I recall correctly, it's usually the Elves that call it the "Gift", whereas Men generally call it the "Doom". However, I think the use of "Doom" in Tolkien's work usually simply means a sort of, "inevitable fate", both good and ill, and "Bane" used specifically for "ill" ("Isildur's Bane", "Durin's Bane", etc). Therein the fully negative connation of the mortaility of Men would be, "The Bane of Men". All of that to answer a question no one asked, but I find Tolkien's word-smithing to be so awesome that I'd tell the same thing to an empty room just to have the chance to speak it hahaha.
@@matyasdobran4598 All the names must be written somewhere unless Aragorn's family tree stops at Amandil. I just checked Tolkien Gateway, and they only number four of eighteen (1) Valandil (15) Ëarendur (17) Númendil (18) Amandil
Nellas was a mother figure to Túrin. She looked after him while he was growing up. Nothing romantic or sexual there. He hardly even remembered her once he left Doriath. Túrin and Beleg on the other hand … obvious isn’t even the word for it.
@@12classics39 oh, agreed with túrin/beleg, but I don't think Nellas thought of herself in a maternal role relative to Túrin. He might have thought of her as a helpful friend or big sister, but I get the impression of 'shy crush' from her. (Meanwhile, our T continues to be oblivious to all women who aren't his immediate family.)
I never realized until now the parallels between Feanor & the Silmarrils and Beren & Luthien. Both Feanor & Beren - one Elf, the other Man - loved & swore to take a treasure held by a great lord & suffered great in the undertaking. One is a tale of lust, betrayal & rejection, while the other is a tale of love, sacrifice & joining!
Except... The Silmarils were originally Feanor's. And they weren't just magical objects he found lying around, but something amazing he created himself. Whereas Beren had no real claim on Luthien, beyond his own sheer determination.
Of all the pairings mentioned it was just one with a male elf and female human, the others were all female (princess) elf and human male. I wonder why one kind of union is more common than the other.
It's actually odd that the race tied to the land almost all of them sailed to the Valinor and that man that is Turin Turambar will be the one to deal Morgorth the final blow.
I refuse to think that the vast majority of world, there are so few pairings of Man and Elf, maybe only 3 in the line of kings but you can't tell me that Dave the woodcutter and Lilliandil the tailor were not hooking up in Rivendell.
I have a rather sacrilegous question: Do Tolkien's elves canonically have pointed ears? It seems that everyone just assumes that they do, but I can't remember any passage in Tolkien's writing that explicity states this.
I'm often thinking about the same thing. I haven't found a a text passage yet in which they are described with pointed ears. So my current hypothesis is that they don't have them. (And I read somewhere that elves are supposed to be fairer and more capable than men, but otherwise look very similar to them).
I certainly don't believe they have very pointy ears, as is sometimes described. My head-canon states they might have slightly upswept ears, but that's probably from the PJ films.
I absolutely love these stories and partially for selfish reasons. My wife is Asian, resembling an elf to me, and she opted to marry me, a white man whose family came from the old world many generations ago. Our children represent the beautiful union of these two wonderfully compatible peoples.
Midsummer that's the worst time to get married, the shortest night of the year! I'd love to know what the people of Minas Tirith thought about their new semi-immortal Queen? I’ll bet every woman in the city suddenly wished they had dark hair and blue eyes, could look devastating in a gown and give any man in the City a run for his money with a sword!
I doubt it, because it’s made clear in the standalone book “The Children of Húrin” that he did not reciprocate her feelings. She reminded him of his late sister Lalaith, and thus he felt a fraternal love for her. Finduilas’ true love was always Gwindor; I imagine when they returned to life in Valinor, she got over Túrin, he was finally healed from all his Angband PTSD, and they got back together. I believe Túrin’s true love was indeed an Elf, but it wasn’t Finduilas. It was Beleg.
Hi, I have found your channel some time back and have been watching it quite a bit, and I have been wondering, can you please share where you get some of your background soundtracks from? Id really like to listen to a certain few.
Do we know of any other unions of the free peoples? Were there half Halflings? Half Dwarves? With Elves and Men? Are they even able to produce young together? Just knowing how people are I'm assuming they at least tried lol.
Considering the dwarves' origin, I would imagine they aren't capable of having children with men and elves. Otherwise (giving how close some groups of dwarves and men lived), there would have been some hybrids. As for the hobbits, they are most likely a branch of men, but they are way too closed off for this.
From the Appendices, it sounds like Dwarves are barely interested in starting families with other Dwarves, never mind Men or Elves. Why waste time on romance when you could be mining or smithing? As for half-Halflings, I honestly like the part of the Rankin Bass version of Return of the King where Gandalf says that Hobbits will end up mingling with Men, so that future people will be descended from both. Hobbits and Men do live together in Bree, and while the books never mention it, I wouldn't be shocked if there are marriages there. The Men of Bree are shorter than average, so it's not like the difference between them and the Hobbits is all that drastic.
I doubt dwarves could, because of the way they were created by Aulë. Despite my dislike for the non-canon parts of the Hobbit movies, I do wonder how Kíli and Tauriel would have worked out - can dwarves and elves have children? Elves and men can because of their similarites as the Elder and Younger children of Eru. Since dwarves were created independently, does that work the same way? Are half-halflings just three-quarterslings? That's the real question here.
@@marilliel Yes. The math gets complicated when trying to figure out what percentage of which race a person is. Elrond is called "Half-elven," but his percentage of Elf blood is under 50%
I read somewhere that Tolkien had said his elves did not succumb to lust or desires of the flesh... That sounds boring as hell if you're married to one.
Always makes me shake my head when I hear the phrase: "Mortality, the gift of men." What a crock! How is mortallity a gift? I think if we lived longer - say to 200 yrs old - we would be a much more compassionate race and less prone to violence, as age does indeed bring some wisdom through experience.
Many Elves believed Men got the better deal. The Elves could never leave the Circles of the World and for all they knew when the world ended so would they. Men left the Circles of the World and while their fate was not known to those who remained behind, they did continue in some fashion.
Don’t forget that Tolkien’s characters, with very few exceptions, are all high-born nobility, so there are probably a lot more instances of intermingling amongst the common folks.
I know that humans can reproduce with elves and orcs, but what about other species like dwarves or hobbits? Is that the reason why the Stoors were able to grow facial hair?
I've been here since the 1st age and have witnessed a few romantic relationships between an elf and a human. Not common, but it did happen. And they were usually kept secret or at least not spoken about much. I too have had a crush for several human ladies throughout the ages.
Ok, I know Beren and Luthien have an incredible love story but the way you described the first time he sees her makes him sound like a massive creeper.
In the beginning of the video there is a love story between aegonr an elf loved the human woman andreth one of the best stories tolkien wrote but too tragedy one
I think it has to do with how he viewed himself and his wife. He thought of her as a beautiful, unearthly-in-a-good-way being while he was just an ordinary guy. I know that Beren and Lúthien, at least, were based on them, so I would guess that Tolkien's own love story inspired a great many of the ones that he wrote.
I absolutely love the story of Tuor and Idril, and I believe it'd underrated, but something always leaves me confused: did they just abandon their son in the midst of wartime and lived their merry life in Valinor?
Ive had to explain this to my mom before, but the current age or not caring and dark humor has basically been born from us being traumatized by existing in a world that doesn't care about us and our future. We are surrounded by news of destruction and suffering, we've basically become numb to it and joke about it cuz, well how else do you deal with it? Im not as bad as my Terminaly online counterparts but i still find myself saying messed up things.
Arwen left her son and daughters? After 120 years? It is said that the lifespan of her offsing dimished soon to a mere 80 years. Eldarion was an exception but still already aged when he became king - Aragorn delayed his own passing for Arwen's sake untill their son could simply not wait anymore, probably already widowed. His sisters would old grandnothers by that time. Arwen probably left 3-4 generations of her offsping behind, her own children being on the death's treshold already.
Eldarion was not at death's threshold; he lived for another 100 years after becoming king, and died at the age of 220. It's safe to assume his sisters lived roughly the same. As he says farewell to Arwen, Aragorn even comments that Eldarion is "a man full ripe for kingship".
@@taicanium well, it is said Aragorn descandants' livespan became short (80) very soon, and that Eldarion was an exception. So his sisters seemed not to be covered by it. Still Eldarion's wife would be dead or almost dead when he became king, and his own children and grand- children must have been all full adults when he became king. According to one of life-spams Tolkien proposed for Eldarion he lived only 6 years past his coronation. This why Tolkien declared Aragorn's descendants lived only to be 80. If all aroumd them had their livespans shortened, it made logistical problems for their rulers to live much konger than their subjects and prodpective spouses. But even Aragorn was married in his 80s not his 100s. Arwen seems the last one to acquire the Dunedain aging rate of 1/3 when she became mortal, Eldarion got a strange aging rate of his own of staying 20 for several decades, but still he would be old by any standards when he ascended the throne and those around him with him.
@@taicanium yepp, this is exactly the thing. Tolkien wanted for Eldarion to have been concieved on the wedding night, this made him 119 at Aragorn's death, even Aragorn was much younger when he became king as Aragorn became king already łate in hi 80s. So Eldarion must have been like the today's King Charles, an agend king from the very beginning. To alleviate this problem Tolkien established a singular aging rate only for Eldarion, for him to stay 20 for several decades, still this would have been long passed when he was 119. And it would not include Eldarion's wife and their offspring nor Eldarion's sisters. This is why we know a lot about Sam's children but so little about Aragorn's, as their livespans are a problem Tolkien did not managed to figure out to make it work. But still, we know Eldarion was alive when his father died and 119 at the time, his sisters must have been only little younger, as Arwen was circa in her mortal 40s when she transitioned into mortality, so she had not much time left to bear additional children. So her daughters were at least 100 or older when Aragorn died. They must have been grandmothers and great-grandmothers and long widowed already., some of their own children must have already died of old age. So Arwen must have left several generations of offspring when she left Gondor, not merely her children.
Oh, I don't know...if Celeborn hadn't been there, I think Gimli might have had more of a thing for Galadriel! (and let's not get into the Tauriel/Fili thing which of course was made up by PJ lol)
Do u guys believe that Elros and his unnamed wife also count as a union between elves and men. Elros being an elf who chose a mortal life among men and his wife who’s probably from the race men. Does this count as a union between Elves and Men? What do y’all think? Also the both of them being the first monarchs of Numenor.
Elros was not an Elf who chose a mortal life. Elros was a mortal half-elf, who chose to remain mortal. The judgement of Manwe says, anyone with any mortal blood is mortal. Unless granted other doom by Manwe (see HoMe V).
I’d say so, yes. Because Arwen was also a half-elf who chose mortality, yet her union with Aragorn is counted as a “union between Elves and Men.” I wonder if his love for his mortal wife was the reason Elros chose mortality; that’s a lovely thought.
@@12classics39 Arwen's union was counted as a union between the Eldar and the Edain, most likely because her doom was to "...live with the youth of the Eldar". Tolkien is quite specific that Arwen is not an elf: "Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights." Letter 345 Essentially, it seems she was an 'immortal' half-elf until she had to make her choice. Then became a mortal half-elf.
I think the answer for that it's because these characters are self inserts by Tolkien himself. If you think about it, when a Man and an Elf marries, the Man is marrying up, with a greater being, and that's how Tolkien saw his wife Edith.
The story of Aegnor and Andreth always gets me because of how so close they were to being wed if not for stinkin wartime rules, and Aegnor eventually being slain.
To be fair, would you like to leave a pregnant woman at home while you are out there fighting this world's Lucifer?
@@valentinkambushev4968 Speaking of which, the last thing a person should do during the upcoming New World Order/7 Year Tribulation is take the mark(666). But you don’t have to be part of the upcoming New World Order/7 Year Tribulation.
Which is why I like to think that it is implied that they will finally meet again in the end of times.
I always thought that wartime rule is not so true. It's just that Finrod had no better explanation to give to Andreth. I think that Elves had not come to understand the love of Men, yet. Finrod, during his conversation with Andreth, mistakes her love as a love of despair, so he dismisses it. However, Andreth's answers make me think that hers is a love of hope for the future. Elves did not think about beyond the Song of the Ainur and probably found their young kin, Men, very strange. Later marriages show that some Elves came to understand Men better. So, Andreth won that debate in the long run.
@@myriadmediamusings I once read a heartbreaking fic containing a theory in which an elderly Andreth was last seen walking out onto the ruined battlefield and holding Aegnor’s body in her arms. 😭
One of the many things about Beren and Lúthien’s story that hits so hard is the fact that for most of the story, they had absolutely no idea that Lúthien would become mortal by the end of it. Lúthien fought so hard for Beren all while believing he would be lost to her forever anyway when he grew old, and she’d have to live on without him for the rest of time. But she wasn’t afraid of the mortality difference. She didn’t consider it to not be worth it just because it wouldn’t last. She fought for her love and for them to have a chance at happiness, however ephemeral.
An important additional point is that Luthien is the daughter of a Maia.
One of my favourite things in Tolkien lore, is the ability of 'ordinary' men and elves to touch the divine and emotionally move the gods and the ainur. They are part of the weave of the world, just as elven lords, men and hobbits and all have an important role to play in the universal composition. Stories are as vital and important to the great as to the small.
That is what mythology is all about.
"Tinuviel!" ..... Best pick up line in the Legendarium.😁👍
🤣
@@Enerdhil in all honesty, though, think of how much that nickname must’ve meant to Lúthien. All her life, people had been putting her on a pedestal and praising her physical beauty nonstop. She must’ve often wondered if there was ANYBODY who loved her for who she was and not for her looks. But then here comes this guy who’s never seen her before, and instead of waxing poetic about her looks like everyone else, he compliments her singing - a personal skill that she’s been working on for centuries. His attention is drawn to what she does, not what she looks like. With just one little nickname, he gives her back her personhood.
@@12classics39
That is a very nice assessment of what happened in their first encounter. I was thinking about how much Tolkien loved Edith and wondering if he called her Tinuviel.🤔
@@Enerdhil I believe their gravestone states that Edith his wife was Luthien and he was Beren.
Love in Tolkiens universe is so inspiring. I mean Tolkien and his wife are buried under the names Beren and Luthien. :)
That's beautiful, I had no idea!
Awwww! ❤
The fact that Liv Tyler and Viggo Mortensen are both very attractive people doesn't hurt the whole Aragorn/Arwen relationship one bit!
Yeah great casting! Liv was excellent for that lore, Viggo also. Whenever there is art design depiction, they always use those actors in combination with the art from the Tolkien (i suppose that there is something like that).
I dont think there's anyone else who gives MORE LIFE to these stories than you you, Matt. I really appreciate it.
Right! Hands down the #1 tolkien channel on UA-cam. It's the great speaking voice and the maps to show travels and locations, making it that much more immersive
A true legend
I like to think that Aegnor and Andreth will meet again at the second music of the Ainur, countless ages after they met for the first time.
Can you explain that second song pls
This comment made me feel great bittersweet sorrow and yet joy. Amongst my people the love that is lost, is one of the central themes of our poetry and epics. We call this genre of poetry: "Ghazals", a word which means the mournful call of the doe for her slain stag mate.
Tolkeins concept of love is very close to that of mine own people. How curious
Will recognize her? Will she appear to him as in their first meaning? Or will she be the wrinkled, old 90-year-old lady who died after he died.🤔
@@Enerdhil I think how they look would be irrelevant. Love is love.
@@theamazingbatboy
It is mythology, so I guess you are right, but in the real world looks matter.😎
Aragorn: *dies*
Arwen: My time has come. *dies*
Years later and I still refresh at 5pm UK Saturday for a Nerd upload.
Gwindor really seems like a commendably compassionate and level-headed person. Imagine enduring years of captivity, being maimed, and then returning home just to watch your fiancee fall for your new friend - and still trying to protect both of them.
I wonder how much of her love of Turin was actually just the working of Morgoth's curse, and if she and Gwindor were reunited in Valinor.
For sure, Finduilas and Gwindor are reembodied and can finally get married, have kids, and settle down.
@@katherinegraham3803 The book says “against her will, her love for Túrin grew day by day.” That sounds to me like it was the curse.
This is one of your best videos Nerd. Well done!
Tolkien was truly a master at writing romance and love that makes you feel for it all over. The fact that it doesn’t take the focus of his works yet still drives many narratives truly shows how powerful his writing was.
I can only imagine whose decision (fan fiction) it was to have a love triangle between a dwarf and elf in “The Hobbit.”
7:56 I don't know if you intended for this to be funny, but I am currently on the floor, laughing!🤣🤣🤣🤣
Plus that nice sketch of him wuth a bird! 😂 🐦 needs a Hawk! Turin!
I think in Turin's case, he is generally clueless about a lot of things. He is the least perceptive character in the Legendarium.
I am sure he blames the Curse for it.😂
Of all the videos I have watched, this is the one that moved me more deeply. Always wonderful, Matt. Keep them coming :)
I can only imagine Thingol's face when his half-maia daughter came to him, asking to marry a dog (by elvish standards).
I always wonder if the humans the elves gotten close to r more akin to pets than actual equal. Like don’t get me wrong we bond with pets intensely but it’s not the same as with fellow human.
I wondered was it Aragorn's maia heritage that caused Legolas to see the crown of flame etc about him when he first spoke to the Riders of Rohan?
That makes a lot more sense...
Yes. This one is dirty, stinks and draws flies.🐶💩🪰🪰🪰🪰🪰
@@yutgorpotungyun I'm thinking they view them as children, as adults do.
The union of Elves and Men are truly beautiful, happy, and romantic, but also comes with great grief and sorrow😊😥
Valar: We can't just make a Man immortal!
Men: What about Tuor?
Valar: That. Was. Different.
Thank you so much for these videos! Excellent work, and it's a great way to start of my very busy Saturdays. Also, how can anyone even make it through the week without hearing "and Debbi" at least once. So thank you too Debbi!! - and all the other donors who make this possible!
You better believe I’m going to try and get a copy of these prints. They are magnificent!
I also like the artwork shown throughout this vid.
I just recently re-read the story of Beren and Luthien, it's one of my favorite stories.
I always love the Beren and Luthien story
I wonder how could Luthien even befriend Beren. When they first met, he must have had long dirty beard and hair, dirty and torn up clothes, and probably could kill a troll with his smell.
Love is blind
She probably liked how rugged he looked compared to all the fairness and smoothness of her kin.
Elves are always half in physical world and half in spiritual world, so may be in spiritual world he looked great, and in the physical world, well..some bathing and grooming usually helps a lot
His appearance hardly mattered to her. What mattered was that he called her ‘Tinúviel,’ which means Nightingale. While literally everybody else in her life put her on a pedestal and worshipped her as the most beautiful being in the world every single day, suddenly here was this guy who knew nothing about her, had no preconceived notions of who she was or should be … and instead of her beauty, he complimented her singing, a skill she’d been working on for years. The first thing he noticed was what she was DOING, not how she looked. He gave her her personhood back.
@@12classics39
Very nice take.👍😁
This channel always delivers the BEST narratives of Tolkien's lines!!
It only goes to show how complex life is in the world of Tolkien and the interesting stories that come along in it.
I been taking a break from lotr and the is the perfect video to come back to
These videos are super helpful to understand Tolkien's whole work much better! Thank You very much!!! And the videos are always like little Tolkien movies in their own rights, fun to watch and captivating! Well done! Thanks again!
Aegnor and Andreth would be reunited when Arda is remade. After waiting for each other for aeons.
Always a nice day when you upload videos!
Always wondered, if men's spirits went beyond and only Illuvatar knew where, then how was Beren's returned?
Beren had not yet left the confines of the world. He was still in the Halls of Mandos (where all souls go after death) waiting for Lúthien because she begged him to, knowing that he would only be in the Halls briefly before leaving the world. She wanted to follow him there to say a proper goodbye before he left, not knowing the depth of the pity she would stir in Mandos’ heart. It’s a testament to the depth of his love for her that he was able to refuse the summoning to leave the world and linger in the Halls until she arrived.
@@12classics39
Nice explanation.😁👍
This was beautiful to watch. One of the parts of Tolkien that always fascinated me. Thank you for this content!
Aragorn - "Tinúviel, Tinúviel....ooh, nevermind. I thought you were some other chick."
Sorry, I thought you were your great-great grandmother!
@@katherinegraham3803 He's still keeping it in the family.
Though with 62 generations difference between Aragorn and Arwen, it is also fair to say that Arwen is a cougar.
@@lmr4403lmao 😂
I absolute love your videos!! Thank you for all the amazing work ❤❤
My english get better and better i Can undestand what you Say that make me happy
Keep it going 😀
These stories always makes me cry..💞
Honestly this brought tears to my eyes. Wonder if it has anything to do with Legolas being my very first crush when I was six lol 😂
Cant let gang know i cried during this 😭😭😭
Beautiful telling of this Story
Tolkeins concept of love is very close to that of mine own people of the Urdu language.
Amongst my people the love that is lost, is one of the central themes of our poetry and epics. We call this genre of poetry: "Ghazals", a word which means the mournful call of the doe for her slain stag mate.
How curious.
Arabic poetry is very beautiful, even when translated.
@theamazingbatboy Yes, but the language of my People is Urdu. I should have specified that. Sorry brother. Thankyou for your nice comment, even so.
@@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886 Apologies, I assumed. Although a tumultuous country I've always wished to visit the Indus valley, home of one of the earliest civilizations on earth.
@theamazingbatboy It's OK, man. Sometimes I forget that the Internet is a global space, and not everyone will pick up on local terms for poetry and such. Pakistan is a land with its own unique charm amidst the tumults. There are some nice tour operators online who can arrange fully guided tours for you to its peaceful regions such as in the Northern Mountains and along the Indus River. Japanese and European tourists are a common enough site in some parts of the country, in fact. Feel free to ask me for any pointers if you ever feel like planning a short trip.
You did such a great job with this video!!! ❤ Thank you 😊
In the hobbit regarding the unusual attributes of the took family "one of the Took ancestors must have taken a faery bride which is of course absurd, this passage always calls to my mind the many pivotal unions of elf and mortal, so I thank you for this history.
I think to this day that story of Beren and Lúthien is the best story Tolkien has written.
He thought so, too; or at least, the best _love_ story he ever wrote. So much so that the gravestones of himself and his wife, Edith, bear the names 'Beren' and 'Luthien' inscribed under their birth and death dates.
I prefer Aldarion and Erendis
@@mwvidz324
Don't get me started....🤨
Aldarion was the biggest A-hole in the Legendarium, even worse than Turin because he was blessed in Numenor, not Cursed by Morgoth.
@@Enerdhil they were both flawed humans.
@@mwvidz324
What was Erendis's flaw? That she turned into a b!t¢h after Aldarion treated her like 💩 and did the same to her daughter, who grew up isolated from men? How did those flaws form? How (im)patient was she?
If Aldarion wasn't an absentee hubby and daddy for decades, the whole family would have lived happily ever after, and Aldarion and Erendis would have had sons and other daughters.
The Sea was either Aldarion's drug of choice or his kinky fetish. In either case, he chose the Sea over his family.
That dude never should have married. He never had it in him to give up his selfish desires for his nation or his family.
Sorry for the rant.
It occurs to me to wonder, if the spirits of men leave Arda and go where only Illuvatar knows, how does Mandos have the power to send him back with Luthien? Or am I just missing something? (I haven't read their full story yet.)
We have no idea, but it seems like one of a few cases in which there's divine intervention by Iluvatar, God himself.
Could be that Luthien's half-maia blood allowed her to travel before Iluvatar and retrieve Beren's fea?
Beren's spirit had not left Arda. It was still in Mandos.
(A Man dies, spirit goes to Mandos for a time, then leaves Arda).
The fates of Beren and Luthien were due to direct intervention of God.
Matt didn't mention the "pitstop" that all of the fëar of Men make in Mandos, before going to a special place set aside by Eru, described as a "Gift."
Blessed to have my own Luthien 🥰😊
I'd love an explanation on the fate of Dwarves if there is one. It seems like its the same as men (which wouldn't really make death the gift of "men") but I feel like it makes more sense if they're all reincarnated immediately after death. I think this fits with them starting as tools for Aule but im curious if there is anything on it in the wider legendarium
@@CGChris In The Silmarillion, it’s said that Elves believe dead Dwarves simply return to the stone from which their forefathers came, but Dwarves themselves believe Aulë gathers them into a special section of the Halls of Mandos reserved especially for them, and there they will await the end of days, after which they will join the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar in the Second Music, which will create a new world more beautiful than this one.
@@12classics39 Very interesting thank you! That does kind of sucks for the Dwarves then because their Afterlife reward is they get to sit in Tolkein purgatory watching the Elves go back to the undying lands and Men go hang with Illuvitar
@@CGChris well, Dwarves are the children of Aulë, so they consider it an honor to be in his halls and prepare to help rebuild the world. But Thorin’s company and Gimli undoubtedly missed their hobbit friends.
Tuor and Idril were first in the Book of Lost Tales, not because of "timeline", but rather because Beren was an Elf
Wasn't Tuor an Elf, too?😂
I've heard the mortality of Men described in Tolkien's works as both the "Doom of Man" and the "Gift of Man". If I recall correctly, it's usually the Elves that call it the "Gift", whereas Men generally call it the "Doom".
However, I think the use of "Doom" in Tolkien's work usually simply means a sort of, "inevitable fate", both good and ill, and "Bane" used specifically for "ill" ("Isildur's Bane", "Durin's Bane", etc). Therein the fully negative connation of the mortaility of Men would be, "The Bane of Men".
All of that to answer a question no one asked, but I find Tolkien's word-smithing to be so awesome that I'd tell the same thing to an empty room just to have the chance to speak it hahaha.
Can u made a video about the history of the Lords of Anduinë
?
Do we have that family tree? From Silmariën until the Faithful's exile in Romenna, when Ar-Pharazon was the dictator?
@@Enerdhil ye there are some names
@@matyasdobran4598
All the names must be written somewhere unless Aragorn's family tree stops at Amandil.
I just checked Tolkien Gateway, and they only number four of eighteen
(1) Valandil
(15) Ëarendur
(17) Númendil
(18) Amandil
I wonder how a day at the halls of Mandos look like.
Sleepy.
@@whitmerule2753 😄😄😄 so they just sleep there? They don't do anything else?
@@danielamckee5435 They may have one hour per day of Silent Musing. As a treat.
@whitmerule2753 oh ok. Where did you get this information 🤔?
What about Turin and Nellas? Man, dude was pulling all the elves back in the day but was pretty dense indeed
Nellas was a mother figure to Túrin. She looked after him while he was growing up. Nothing romantic or sexual there. He hardly even remembered her once he left Doriath.
Túrin and Beleg on the other hand … obvious isn’t even the word for it.
Nellas was a stalker.😱🤪
@@12classics39 oh, agreed with túrin/beleg, but I don't think Nellas thought of herself in a maternal role relative to Túrin. He might have thought of her as a helpful friend or big sister, but I get the impression of 'shy crush' from her.
(Meanwhile, our T continues to be oblivious to all women who aren't his immediate family.)
@@Enerdhil 😂
@@12classics39 He definitely had a crush on her for sure….. idk about him and beleg tho 😆
18:31 Thus the gift of Men/Illuvitar
I never realized until now the parallels between Feanor & the Silmarrils and Beren & Luthien. Both Feanor & Beren - one Elf, the other Man - loved & swore to take a treasure held by a great lord & suffered great in the undertaking.
One is a tale of lust, betrayal & rejection, while the other is a tale of love, sacrifice & joining!
Except... The Silmarils were originally Feanor's. And they weren't just magical objects he found lying around, but something amazing he created himself. Whereas Beren had no real claim on Luthien, beyond his own sheer determination.
@@davidlundquist1979 Admittedly, I'm splitting hairs, but the Silmarils were just houses for a light Feanor didn't create either.
I believe the spirits of men return to Iluvatar.
Eventually, but only after a short stint in the Halls of Mandos.
Beren's was probably longer than usual.
Surprised we never got eldar/numenorian hyvrids. They had the most interactions between each other for like 1000 years.
Love the video! 👍
In what book is the story Aegnor and Andreth told?
Morgoth'a ring
Thanks
Why is it always king's daughter?
I think it may go back to how Tolkien viewed himself and Edith. Most husbands are fully aware that we have “married up” as they say.
Female Elves are easier to trick into marriage than their dude counterparts.😂
@@NerdoftheRings
Amen!🙏✝️👍🏻
Of all the pairings mentioned it was just one with a male elf and female human, the others were all female (princess) elf and human male. I wonder why one kind of union is more common than the other.
Beautiful ❤
It's actually odd that the race tied to the land almost all of them sailed to the Valinor and that man that is Turin Turambar will be the one to deal Morgorth the final blow.
I refuse to think that the vast majority of world, there are so few pairings of Man and Elf, maybe only 3 in the line of kings but you can't tell me that Dave the woodcutter and Lilliandil the tailor were not hooking up in Rivendell.
In Dave's wet dreams.😂🤣😆😂😆🤣
In my headcanon, there were more elf/human pairings, but in tales untold.
@@melkhiordarkfell4354
Prince Imrahil likely had Elven blood, which might have come from Nimrodel
I have a rather sacrilegous question: Do Tolkien's elves canonically have pointed ears? It seems that everyone just assumes that they do, but I can't remember any passage in Tolkien's writing that explicity states this.
I'm often thinking about the same thing. I haven't found a a text passage yet in which they are described with pointed ears. So my current hypothesis is that they don't have them. (And I read somewhere that elves are supposed to be fairer and more capable than men, but otherwise look very similar to them).
I certainly don't believe they have very pointy ears, as is sometimes described. My head-canon states they might have slightly upswept ears, but that's probably from the PJ films.
I absolutely love these stories and partially for selfish reasons. My wife is Asian, resembling an elf to me, and she opted to marry me, a white man whose family came from the old world many generations ago. Our children represent the beautiful union of these two wonderfully compatible peoples.
Very good video.
Carcharoth was a wolf not a werewolf, mind you he was a GIANT wolf
Midsummer that's the worst time to get married, the shortest night of the year!
I'd love to know what the people of Minas Tirith thought about their new semi-immortal Queen? I’ll bet every woman in the city suddenly wished they had dark hair and blue eyes,
could look devastating in a gown and give any man in the City a run for his money with a sword!
Turin and Finduilas may get together in the time when the world is renewed. That is an encouraging thought.
I doubt it, because it’s made clear in the standalone book “The Children of Húrin” that he did not reciprocate her feelings. She reminded him of his late sister Lalaith, and thus he felt a fraternal love for her. Finduilas’ true love was always Gwindor; I imagine when they returned to life in Valinor, she got over Túrin, he was finally healed from all his Angband PTSD, and they got back together.
I believe Túrin’s true love was indeed an Elf, but it wasn’t Finduilas. It was Beleg.
@@12classics39 So long as my boi Turin gets an Elf Waifu, I'm OK with that, lol.
So..... Is Aragorn and Arwen children also have choice to choose between being human or elf?
I think they were bound by Arwen's choice to be mortal, much as Elros' descendents were bound by his.
Hi, I have found your channel some time back and have been watching it quite a bit, and I have been wondering, can you please share where you get some of your background soundtracks from? Id really like to listen to a certain few.
I license my tracks through artlist, but if you check on Spotify, Kyle Preston has a number that I use!
I might be the only one that's not amused by Beren and Luthien's relationship
I am curious, why are you not?
Do we know of any other unions of the free peoples? Were there half Halflings? Half Dwarves? With Elves and Men? Are they even able to produce young together? Just knowing how people are I'm assuming they at least tried lol.
Considering the dwarves' origin, I would imagine they aren't capable of having children with men and elves. Otherwise (giving how close some groups of dwarves and men lived), there would have been some hybrids. As for the hobbits, they are most likely a branch of men, but they are way too closed off for this.
From the Appendices, it sounds like Dwarves are barely interested in starting families with other Dwarves, never mind Men or Elves. Why waste time on romance when you could be mining or smithing?
As for half-Halflings, I honestly like the part of the Rankin Bass version of Return of the King where Gandalf says that Hobbits will end up mingling with Men, so that future people will be descended from both. Hobbits and Men do live together in Bree, and while the books never mention it, I wouldn't be shocked if there are marriages there. The Men of Bree are shorter than average, so it's not like the difference between them and the Hobbits is all that drastic.
Dwarves and Hobbits?🤢
I doubt dwarves could, because of the way they were created by Aulë. Despite my dislike for the non-canon parts of the Hobbit movies, I do wonder how Kíli and Tauriel would have worked out - can dwarves and elves have children? Elves and men can because of their similarites as the Elder and Younger children of Eru. Since dwarves were created independently, does that work the same way?
Are half-halflings just three-quarterslings? That's the real question here.
@@marilliel
Yes. The math gets complicated when trying to figure out what percentage of which race a person is. Elrond is called "Half-elven," but his percentage of Elf blood is under 50%
There is also the history of Tal-Elmar (during the Second Age) and its possible elven origin.
Tal-Elmar is of Numenorean 'origin' not Elven.
Imrizore & Mythralas (spelt wrong) sounds like it might have been the inspiration for Kili & Tauriel In the hobbit films
I read somewhere that Tolkien had said his elves did not succumb to lust or desires of the flesh... That sounds boring as hell if you're married to one.
Are there any pairings of normal unimportant elves and humans?
Always makes me shake my head when I hear the phrase: "Mortality, the gift of men." What a crock! How is mortallity a gift? I think if we lived longer - say to 200 yrs old - we would be a much more compassionate race and less prone to violence, as age does indeed bring some wisdom through experience.
Many Elves believed Men got the better deal. The Elves could never leave the Circles of the World and for all they knew when the world ended so would they. Men left the Circles of the World and while their fate was not known to those who remained behind, they did continue in some fashion.
That reminds me, SDCC is next week!!! If they rename Avengers 5 to Avengers vs X-Men, I'm going to lose it!!!
I do look forward to next week. Gonna be busy and interesting as a whole.
Don’t forget that Tolkien’s characters, with very few exceptions, are all high-born nobility, so there are probably a lot more instances of intermingling amongst the common folks.
Beautiful
What about Took fairy wife?
Was not expecting a guest appearance by Gerard Butler 😂
Too many ads. Slow it down. I’ll check back in a month
I forgot that detial of Beren and Luthien, laying together before marriage, I'm kinda surprised he'd write that as a god thing.
Elf Waifus and Husbandos in Middle Earth are very difficult to get.
James 4:13-14 comes to mind.
Such is the love between Elves and Men.😞
"of" is missing from the title.
🍻
I know that humans can reproduce with elves and orcs, but what about other species like dwarves or hobbits? Is that the reason why the Stoors were able to grow facial hair?
I've been here since the 1st age and have witnessed a few romantic relationships between an elf and a human. Not common, but it did happen. And they were usually kept secret or at least not spoken about much. I too have had a crush for several human ladies throughout the ages.
Ok, I know Beren and Luthien have an incredible love story but the way you described the first time he sees her makes him sound like a massive creeper.
Are there no elven men falling in love with humans?
In the beginning of the video there is a love story between aegonr an elf loved the human woman andreth one of the best stories tolkien wrote but too tragedy one
Why do you think Tolkien chose to portray more elf women to human men than elf men to human women?
I think it has to do with how he viewed himself and his wife. He thought of her as a beautiful, unearthly-in-a-good-way being while he was just an ordinary guy. I know that Beren and Lúthien, at least, were based on them, so I would guess that Tolkien's own love story inspired a great many of the ones that he wrote.
I absolutely love the story of Tuor and Idril, and I believe it'd underrated, but something always leaves me confused: did they just abandon their son in the midst of wartime and lived their merry life in Valinor?
This man and elves unions have bad ends almoast. Tragic.
Ive had to explain this to my mom before, but the current age or not caring and dark humor has basically been born from us being traumatized by existing in a world that doesn't care about us and our future. We are surrounded by news of destruction and suffering, we've basically become numb to it and joke about it cuz, well how else do you deal with it? Im not as bad as my Terminaly online counterparts but i still find myself saying messed up things.
please make Indonesian subtitles 🙏🙏
Arwen left her son and daughters? After 120 years? It is said that the lifespan of her offsing dimished soon to a mere 80 years. Eldarion was an exception but still already aged when he became king - Aragorn delayed his own passing for Arwen's sake untill their son could simply not wait anymore, probably already widowed. His sisters would old grandnothers by that time. Arwen probably left 3-4 generations of her offsping behind, her own children being on the death's treshold already.
Eldarion was not at death's threshold; he lived for another 100 years after becoming king, and died at the age of 220. It's safe to assume his sisters lived roughly the same.
As he says farewell to Arwen, Aragorn even comments that Eldarion is "a man full ripe for kingship".
@@taicanium
Chociewitka said Eldarion was an exception.
@@taicanium well, it is said Aragorn descandants' livespan became short (80) very soon, and that Eldarion was an exception. So his sisters seemed not to be covered by it. Still Eldarion's wife would be dead or almost dead when he became king, and his own children and grand- children must have been all full adults when he became king. According to one of life-spams Tolkien proposed for Eldarion he lived only 6 years past his coronation. This why Tolkien declared Aragorn's descendants lived only to be 80. If all aroumd them had their livespans shortened, it made logistical problems for their rulers to live much konger than their subjects and prodpective spouses. But even Aragorn was married in his 80s not his 100s. Arwen seems the last one to acquire the Dunedain aging rate of 1/3 when she became mortal, Eldarion got a strange aging rate of his own of staying 20 for several decades, but still he would be old by any standards when he ascended the throne and those around him with him.
@@taicanium yepp, this is exactly the thing. Tolkien wanted for Eldarion to have been concieved on the wedding night, this made him 119 at Aragorn's death, even Aragorn was much younger when he became king as Aragorn became king already łate in hi 80s. So Eldarion must have been like the today's King Charles, an agend king from the very beginning. To alleviate this problem Tolkien established a singular aging rate only for Eldarion, for him to stay 20 for several decades, still this would have been long passed when he was 119. And it would not include Eldarion's wife and their offspring nor Eldarion's sisters. This is why we know a lot about Sam's children but so little about Aragorn's, as their livespans are a problem Tolkien did not managed to figure out to make it work. But still, we know Eldarion was alive when his father died and 119 at the time, his sisters must have been only little younger, as Arwen was circa in her mortal 40s when she transitioned into mortality, so she had not much time left to bear additional children. So her daughters were at least 100 or older when Aragorn died. They must have been grandmothers and great-grandmothers and long widowed already., some of their own children must have already died of old age. So Arwen must have left several generations of offspring when she left Gondor, not merely her children.
Curious that no dwarf has ever been interested in an elf or a man. Maybe they're too different
Oh, I don't know...if Celeborn hadn't been there, I think Gimli might have had more of a thing for Galadriel! (and let's not get into the Tauriel/Fili thing which of course was made up by PJ lol)
It is not EArendil it is Ärendil
And for 2 of the wedded pairings 0.something Maiar.
Do u guys believe that Elros and his unnamed wife also count as a union between elves and men.
Elros being an elf who chose a mortal life among men and his wife who’s probably from the race men. Does this count as a union between Elves and Men? What do y’all think?
Also the both of them being the first monarchs of Numenor.
Oh! That’s a great question! I guess if presumably Elros made his decision before meeting his wife, they’d be 2 mortals. 🤔
Elros was not an Elf who chose a mortal life.
Elros was a mortal half-elf, who chose to remain mortal.
The judgement of Manwe says, anyone with any mortal blood is mortal. Unless granted other doom by Manwe (see HoMe V).
I’d say so, yes. Because Arwen was also a half-elf who chose mortality, yet her union with Aragorn is counted as a “union between Elves and Men.”
I wonder if his love for his mortal wife was the reason Elros chose mortality; that’s a lovely thought.
@@12classics39 Arwen's union was counted as a union between the Eldar and the Edain, most likely because her doom was to "...live with the youth of the Eldar".
Tolkien is quite specific that Arwen is not an elf:
"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345
Essentially, it seems she was an 'immortal' half-elf until she had to make her choice. Then became a mortal half-elf.
Ah I get from all of u guys. So it might count as a union between elves and men.
Why are all the pairings a male Human and female Elf? x'D Do male elves not care for female humans?
I think the answer for that it's because these characters are self inserts by Tolkien himself. If you think about it, when a Man and an Elf marries, the Man is marrying up, with a greater being, and that's how Tolkien saw his wife Edith.