Nice work gentlemen, thank you, very informative. I had a feeling that the GEA was messy and expensive, but I had no idea that it was this messy and expensive. Anyone and everyone interested in decarbonizing the grid, should pay close attention to this tangled tortured tale; and learn from it.
The way the latest climate conference in Dubai is going is filling me with hope. As a German, I’m afraid, we can no longer be saved and I’m happy for our country to serve as THE negative example to the world on how NOT to decarbonize cost and resource efficiently. I just hope that leaders will draw the right conclusions from the precedent we set.
Hi! Amazing how politicians around the world just distributed huge subsidies all round, for solar panels especially, with no control on the impact on public budget. Just sad. For wind turbines spinning: they are usually producing! The thing is, the meter for the subsidies is in a different spot than the meter for outgoing production! The meter for subsidies measures the gross output of the generator, whereas the Windfarm production is measuring the net output of the farm, at the transformer station. So they produce just to consume it all internally, so that they can pocket subsidies, while they deliver naught to the consumers! Well, don't know if it's the case in Canada, but it has been the case on some green production in Europe...
Cut speed and cut out speed. These are two useful terms and concepts to understand. I’m going to use Wind turbine, cutting speed and cut out speed in a conversation this week!
Not sure your point. They bought that much 50 years ago? That they boughty more than they used 50 years ago? What does 50 years have to do with things?
@@BillWiltsch we bought and paid for 50 years ago, built it and Currently have installed and running 20 X the "Generation Capacity" then we currently use as Canadians., prbly alot MORE
ontario could easily become a winter-peaking province with all the heatpumps that are being installed. people don't realize heating takes more energy than cooling even with a heatpump.
@@Jon-hx7pe Why would not heatpumps be popular without rebates? Natural gas is that cheap? In Norway most have had heatpumps for over 20 years. Canada must have pretty similar climate, at least in winter?
Did he say that Bruce's "flexible" operation entails dumping the differential steam demand to the condenser? Not by adjusting the reactor power level downward, closing down the sequential turbine nozzle valves, and decreasing the feedwater flow? If that's true, it seems like very bad stweardship of our large but finite nuclear fuel reserves.
I read the Accountability Office of Ontario's summary of the 2009 Green Energy Act. I see the reference that you speak of about 85% of the remaining 20 years of PPA's (Power Purchase Agreement) obligation going direct to the budget was 16.1 Billion. The other figure was that between 2009 and 2019 the average Ontarian's power bill doubled, and you are saying the combination adds up to 63 billion ? Then I heard your guest say that just the ratepayers burden was 63 billion. It is biblical you will be left to inherit the wind. Isn't the current federal green program a virtual carbon copy no pun intended.
"We pay for the spilled water." Do Ontario hydro generators have to pay a fee for the water that pass through the power power plants? If yes who gets that money?
My guess is that statement is false. I think the point he tried to make is that the public already paid for the investment for the hydro plant and not using water would be to reduce the value of that investment.
Yes. All the water that goes through nuclear stations and places like Niagara is "rented". Last time I saw the numbers, the government gets somewhere around 200M$/year from this. There's an additional government surcharge [can't remember exact details] that brings the total to around 300M$. Repeat these numbers for Bruce Power. The profit, for OPG, and site lease, for Bruce, is additional revenue for the government. So, all in, electrical production in Ontario is fantastically profitable... my rough estimate is 4 or 5B$ per year.
Was the GEA really about energy? Or was it really just a rural farm subsidy in disguise? All over southern Ontario, you saw those rotatable solar panels on stands, just broken down with wires dangling. Some of them are still around. Then sometimes you'd see huge new farm buildings built just for solar panels. But those farms themselves just make CO2... ethanol and cows.
Hi all just a thought for you ,,,, We all say dams are not green power Right? So as i understand it the biggest issue is the concrete used Right? Well i live in Australia and we have loads of wind farms and with the math i have it looks to be that the farms have consumed the same amount of concrete as two medium sized dams !! So a dam lasts longer gives more power and is more recyclable than a wind farm . WHY
Dams are incredibly impactful to the environment because of the flooding. They are the most dangerous form of electricity by deaths (dam failure death toll is in the hundreds of thousands).
@@DavidL-ii7yn death is a fact of life ur talking rubbish at best or misdirection is the goal. GREEN POWER is the Question poor maintenance or shoddy construction are ur issues
"wind is of no value" is just a insane statement to make. It sounds like there were lots of problems with incentives, but such comments just decrease the ability to trust anything that person says.
The statement is a little hyperbolic, but Ontario's wind is strong when our power demand is low. When we need wind to power our peak demand - it is almost always missing, and this was known before we built it. Because we pay money to get rid of power produced when we don't need it, you could say it is "no value" or even "negative value" in the very specific context of Ontario and the Green Energy Act. Keep in mind, this conversation isn't judging renewables everywhere - it is judging the outcomes of the Green Energy Act in Ontario, which has been not very useful in any of its stated goals. But make no mistake - there is no way to use wind on Ontario's grid without some major energy storage. It is simply out of phase with our major demand peaks. All it can do is offset natural gas on occasion.
@@justinmckeiver7070The incentive structure for Green Energy Act in Ontario, does not look like a good design. But to go from that to saying "wind is of no value" is a pretty big leap. I dont know the energy mix in Ontario, but as long as there is significant share of natural gas or hydro used for electricity, then I dont see that is possible to have no value (unless natural gas is dirt cheap and you dont pay for CO2 emissions or you cant delay the production of the hydro). Energy storage is a key component if you plan on using a large share of solar and wind energy. Any energy system that does not account for that will have problems.
I can very quickly discern this as a multiple rewatch episode. Thank you CK.
Nice work gentlemen, thank you, very informative. I had a feeling that the GEA was messy and expensive, but I had no idea that it was this messy and expensive. Anyone and everyone interested in decarbonizing the grid, should pay close attention to this tangled tortured tale; and learn from it.
is it tho?
The way the latest climate conference in Dubai is going is filling me with hope.
As a German, I’m afraid, we can no longer be saved and I’m happy for our country to serve as THE negative example to the world on how NOT to decarbonize cost and resource efficiently.
I just hope that leaders will draw the right conclusions from the precedent we set.
First to grid rights for variable renewable energy is a nonsense. Dispatchable, reliable generation should have first to grid rights, not unreliables.
Australian electricity rates are typically, from grid 30c/KWHr, to grid 7c/KWHr.
Aus "IS" , a World LEADER
Hi! Amazing how politicians around the world just distributed huge subsidies all round, for solar panels especially, with no control on the impact on public budget. Just sad.
For wind turbines spinning: they are usually producing! The thing is, the meter for the subsidies is in a different spot than the meter for outgoing production! The meter for subsidies measures the gross output of the generator, whereas the Windfarm production is measuring the net output of the farm, at the transformer station. So they produce just to consume it all internally, so that they can pocket subsidies, while they deliver naught to the consumers!
Well, don't know if it's the case in Canada, but it has been the case on some green production in Europe...
Cut speed and cut out speed. These are two useful terms and concepts to understand. I’m going to use Wind turbine, cutting speed and cut out speed in a conversation this week!
I've been looking forward to this for a long time
Thanks for this. I wish more people understood these eeconomics.
do YOU understand these Economics?
@@-LightningRod- Everything? No. But much more than most.
@@BillWiltsch okay, Canadians have already bought and paid for more
"GENERATION CAPACITY"
than this Country uses.
50 years ago
Not sure your point. They bought that much 50 years ago? That they boughty more than they used 50 years ago? What does 50 years have to do with things?
@@BillWiltsch
we bought and paid for 50 years ago, built it and Currently have installed and running 20 X the "Generation Capacity" then we currently use as Canadians., prbly alot MORE
This and the Canada/Germany hydrogen thing have to be about the most harebrained schemes ever conceived.
ontario could easily become a winter-peaking province with all the heatpumps that are being installed. people don't realize heating takes more energy than cooling even with a heatpump.
You don't generate 750 degree C industrial heat with heatpumps.
of course you don't - heatpumps are great for low-grade heat. you don't need 750c to heat a house! @@chapter4travels
people use natural gas for heating in Ontario today?
yes - much of it is gas. heatpumps are getting popular though in part due to rebates.@@kimmono
@@Jon-hx7pe Why would not heatpumps be popular without rebates? Natural gas is that cheap? In Norway most have had heatpumps for over 20 years. Canada must have pretty similar climate, at least in winter?
This is all good information but giving us an idea on where the source of the data mentioned on this episode would also be useful.
Did he say that Bruce's "flexible" operation entails dumping the differential steam demand to the condenser? Not by adjusting the reactor power level downward, closing down the sequential turbine nozzle valves, and decreasing the feedwater flow? If that's true, it seems like very bad stweardship of our large but finite nuclear fuel reserves.
Let's GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The wonderful cold latitudes solutions for the rest of the world, for the warm latitudes yes.😊😊
Hi, how can I be in contact with Chris Adlam ?
I read the Accountability Office of Ontario's summary of the 2009 Green Energy Act. I see the reference that you speak of about 85% of the remaining 20 years of PPA's (Power Purchase Agreement) obligation going direct to the budget was 16.1 Billion. The other figure was that between 2009 and 2019 the average Ontarian's power bill doubled, and you are saying the combination adds up to 63 billion ? Then I heard your guest say that just the ratepayers burden was 63 billion. It is biblical you will be left to inherit the wind. Isn't the current federal green program a virtual carbon copy no pun intended.
"We pay for the spilled water." Do Ontario hydro generators have to pay a fee for the water that pass through the power power plants? If yes who gets that money?
My guess is that statement is false. I think the point he tried to make is that the public already paid for the investment for the hydro plant and not using water would be to reduce the value of that investment.
Yes. All the water that goes through nuclear stations and places like Niagara is "rented". Last time I saw the numbers, the government gets somewhere around 200M$/year from this. There's an additional government surcharge [can't remember exact details] that brings the total to around 300M$. Repeat these numbers for Bruce Power. The profit, for OPG, and site lease, for Bruce, is additional revenue for the government. So, all in, electrical production in Ontario is fantastically profitable... my rough estimate is 4 or 5B$ per year.
Was the GEA really about energy? Or was it really just a rural farm subsidy in disguise? All over southern Ontario, you saw those rotatable solar panels on stands, just broken down with wires dangling. Some of them are still around. Then sometimes you'd see huge new farm buildings built just for solar panels. But those farms themselves just make CO2... ethanol and cows.
Hi all just a thought for you ,,,, We all say dams are not green power Right? So as i understand it the biggest issue is the concrete used Right? Well i live in Australia and we have loads of wind farms and with the math i have it looks to be that the farms have consumed the same amount of concrete as two medium sized dams !! So a dam lasts longer gives more power and is more recyclable than a wind farm . WHY
Dams are incredibly impactful to the environment because of the flooding. They are the most dangerous form of electricity by deaths (dam failure death toll is in the hundreds of thousands).
@@DavidL-ii7yn death is a fact of life ur talking rubbish at best or misdirection is the goal. GREEN POWER is the Question poor maintenance or shoddy construction are ur issues
20:05 Amory Lovins should be forced to pay $1T in restitution to the United States (to be paid out to American citizens as UBI).
coal is not a horrible air polluter if the exhaust is scrubbed. nuke is still better.
Global criminality.
2 many Chrises! Please try to get this under control, Chris! (Not the guest Chris; the host Chris!)
Its OK if you reverse engineer that
10:30 10:45 This is why electricity metering needs to be banned. Charge a single monthly fee based on bandwidth, period.
Bandwidth of electricity? Please explain
@@Rawdiswar Maximum kW. 2 kW service is one price. 3 kW service is a higher price. Etc.
@@aliendroneservices6621 why do you want metering banned?
that's a crazy idea and would increase costs dramatically for low-users.
@@Jon-hx7pe Do you have broadband internet service? Do you pay for it by the megabyte?
4:03
"wind is of no value" is just a insane statement to make. It sounds like there were lots of problems with incentives, but such comments just decrease the ability to trust anything that person says.
here is some food for thought
neon.energy/Hirth-Ueckerdt-2013-Decreasing-Market-Value-Variable-Renewables-Integration-Options-Deadlocks.pdf
The statement is a little hyperbolic, but Ontario's wind is strong when our power demand is low. When we need wind to power our peak demand - it is almost always missing, and this was known before we built it. Because we pay money to get rid of power produced when we don't need it, you could say it is "no value" or even "negative value" in the very specific context of Ontario and the Green Energy Act. Keep in mind, this conversation isn't judging renewables everywhere - it is judging the outcomes of the Green Energy Act in Ontario, which has been not very useful in any of its stated goals. But make no mistake - there is no way to use wind on Ontario's grid without some major energy storage. It is simply out of phase with our major demand peaks. All it can do is offset natural gas on occasion.
@@justinmckeiver7070The incentive structure for Green Energy Act in Ontario, does not look like a good design.
But to go from that to saying "wind is of no value" is a pretty big leap. I dont know the energy mix in Ontario, but as long as there is significant share of natural gas or hydro used for electricity, then I dont see that is possible to have no value (unless natural gas is dirt cheap and you dont pay for CO2 emissions or you cant delay the production of the hydro).
Energy storage is a key component if you plan on using a large share of solar and wind energy. Any energy system that does not account for that will have problems.
Too many acronyms.
4:03