2020 Harley-Davidson LiveWire vs. Zero Motorcycles SR/F Premium | Motorcycle Comparison
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Cycle World puts two class-leading EV motorcycles-the Harley-Davidson LiveWire and Zero Motorcycles SR/F Premium-to the test.
There’s a buzz within Cycle World headquarters lately. The hum of electric motorcycles charging during the workday can be heard in the halls as staff members have plugged into the merits of two-wheeled EV transportation. Whether zapping to and from work or effortlessly whistling about the greater Los Angeles area without so much as pulling a clutch or toeing a shift lever, EV bikes have proven to be a viable mode of urban transportation.
Enthusiasm has been recently supercharged with the simultaneous arrival of the 2020 Harley-Davidson LiveWire and Zero SR/F Premium, a pair of preeminent models within the segment and the natural makings of a heads-up comparison.
These full-fledged roadbikes are each endowed with chassis specifications, ergonomics, and styling well in line with a contemporary petrol-powered liter-class sport naked. Both feature comprehensive IMU-based rider aids with lean-sensing traction control, cornering ABS, and have selectable ride modes for Sport, Street, Rain, and Eco that tailor throttle response, peak power output, regenerative braking, and TC sensitivity. Both have a TFT dash display providing a wealth of info to monitor charging status, estimated range, state of charge, ride mode selection, and more.
The physical size and load capacity of these bikes facilitates use of a larger lithium-ion battery pack than any EV motorcycle we’ve tested in the past. Each bike’s power pack is encased in an aluminum heat-sink housing, lending a stylistic appearance along with the strength and rigidity to serve as a stressed member of the frame. Zero employs a tubular steel-trellis frame wrapping its 14.4kWh Z-Force battery unit, while Harley’s frame structure is composed of aluminum cast members bolted to its 15.5kWh Rechargeable Energy Storage System (RESS) that join at the steering head.
While both are propelled by an interior permanent-magnet brushless AC motor, their powertrain configurations are fundamentally different. Zero’s ZF75-10 motor is a passive air-cooled design mounted with its power shaft horizontally across the frame, using a final-drive pulley attached directly to the motor’s shaft. The Revelation motor of the Harley-Davidson resides beneath the RESS in a longitudinal arrangement, features a liquid-cooling jacket, and employs gear-ratio-reducing spiral-bevel-gear primary drive that transmits torque to its perpendicular countershaft/sprocket arrangement.
Measuring power output at the rear wheel on the Cycle World dyno revealed an interesting contrast in engineering approach. Viewing each bike’s peak torque value alone would lead one to surmise that the Zero’s 146.5 pound-feet flat buries the 74.0 pound-feet Harley.
First, note that the LiveWire motor spins beyond 14,000 rpm, while the Zero tails off around 7,000 rpm. Horsepower produced at higher revs mathematically equates to notably less torque than when the same horsepower value is produced at a lower rpm. Comparing the two at a dyno drum speed of 55 mph, we found the Zero produces 80 hp and 120 pound-feet at 3,500 rpm, while the Harley dealt 91 hp and 68 pound-feet at 7,000 rpm. It’s much like your classic gas-powered matchup of a big-inch twin and high-revving inline-four. Harley-Davidson’s role reversal of leveraging revs while the competition leans on low-rpm torque truly is a Revelation.
Tipping our scale at 502 pounds ready to ride, the SR/F Premium would also appear to enjoy a power-to-weight advantage on the 544-pound LiveWire. The Harley has 8-percent more energy storage capacity however, justifying the additional pounds that also pencils out at 8.4 percent.
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100% of torque at 0rpm.
100ish mile range. (or close)
silent
If I could afford one, it would be my primary bike.
:)
The more important thing is - how fast are you able to load.
Harley makes 100 miles in nearly 25 Minutes.
Thats close to perfect
Harley World Record what?
Everything you mentioned was just extra. The REAL selling point is no clutch or changing gears. Just twist and go.
That may be a selling point to scooter riders but not to motorcyclists.
@@johnsumser9743 This thread's gotten a little weird which "that" is a selling point to scooter riders but not motorcyclists?
Gotta get those prices down and ranges up. It'll be what you want soon enough though.
If they catch on it'll happen eventually. Everything "new" is expensive.
@Ben Daulton ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Zero makes the SR model. It's 15k (half the price of the livewire) has the same 0-60 time and has a combined range of 120miles. (also, they tested these bikes in sport mode only intentionally trying to drain the batteries in this video. Wonder why this wasn't mentioned..hmmmmm.
1gb SD cards used to cost 80 dollars back in 07
My aprilia only goes about 120 miles... it only take 5mn to fuel up but still range is good on these... Price tho????
Harley Davidson has been making motorcycles for a while...but Zero has been making electric motorcycles for a while
Yeah, since 2006. HD having a recall (wouldn't charge at home) upon the launch of the livewire isn't a good sign. I want other brands to succeed, but I feel Zero owners need to get the word out about the quality and reliability of the brand having 14 years of R&D behind it compared to Harley here. Best of luck to both, but I'd hate to see zero lose sales because Harley is releasing high profile, expensive bikes with issues.
@@dylandog1289 My 2020 Zero DSR lasted 2 MONTHS before it died, permanently damaged the battery by 10% reducing the range, then died again 7 months later. Zero makes shit!!
@@djmouseshadow4735 you should have bought a gas bike, you tree hugger.
Could you finally learn the difference between kilowatts and kilowatt-hours.
😂
Charging the Harley at the dealership should be free forever for three reasons:
1. Nobody is going to do it. It's a commuter bike, few people will travel on the thing and use the charger, therefore it costs Harley very little.
2. At least the owners would get something for their $9K premium over everything that competes with it.
3. The kind of person who would tour on it probably has disposable income. While the bike is charging for an hour, you know where they are? At the dealership looking at other bikes and expensive Harley swag.
I use my used Zero for commuting, and I have a Harley soft tail for weekend cruising. I won't be paying the 9K premium for my daily commute. 9K buys a lot of toy in my garage. Good review though; I agree with the points made.
I love my SR/F but glad to see others building good electric bikes. Energica from Italy makes some amazing bikes as well.
My Zero is a blast to ride around the city. While I have gotten over 100 miles on a 'tank' it is more fun to set it in sport mode and just whack the throttle open.
For better 0-60 turn TC off, but with 140 lb-ft of torque and a motor that spins up instantly if you break traction this can be quite risky.
Thanks Bill Kerr. I'd not heard of the Energica machines, but after taking a quick look at their website, they look really superb ... but accessories are pricey, not to mention the base price of the bike itself. Too elite for me. But they sure look nice.
@@Jonathan-L Yes, sexy Italian bikes are expensive. That goes without saying.
Lol did the to my zero almost dump it lol
@@bsmith2340 A mechanic at my dealer dumped a just uncrated SR pulling out of the parking lot. The SR/F without TC would be genuinely dangerous to ride.
very weird that they didn't include the Energica yes.. better range and lower price than either and they just omitted it??
They need stage III charging stations at Star Bucks .. buy a $5.00 cup of coffee and get a free charge..
The next gen cafe racer, starbucks racer.
@@ReonLeon Soy Boy bikers..
Charging is free regardless.
@@o.w.dobbins6927 Yes but where are the Charges ? Everyone already knows where the Starbucks are.. even though I have never bought one of their Coffees I have seen their locations..
I would have loved if you guys added the Energica Evo essaessa9 to this review.
70 miles though, lol... i am a huge fan of electric vehicles... but if anything has less than a 120 mile range (or at minimum 90 miles) and cost more than the cheapest electric cars than i would say its a dealbreaker.
my big question is, how is Tesla making a full on car with 3 times the range for 5 grand more than the Harley, maybe Harley needs to have a chat with them? I feel like the motorcycle should be the more efficient package, right?
Good review though :)
Tesla is mass producing their stuff, and selling it like a hot cake. They have also got a lot of R&D done for other models, All costs are in house, and they go outside for very few parts. Both of these have had to catch up in the r&d, sell far fewer models, and simply dont have the production capability Tesla does.
@@raw7s784 Harley could afford the loss, they chose to market this product at a faily high premium
@@kedwardsTWO this wasn't always the case for Tesla, yet somehow since inception they've always had wayyyy better range than the competition.
R&D? Harley had project livewire for like what, 5 years now? what came of that if only to catch up to and not beat the competition and still have it at the most expensive in its category
My wife owns a 2018 Zero SR (same -60 time as the zero SR/F/Livewire), and it averages 120miles. She rides it in eco mode. All factory estimates are done in eco mode. These guys purposefully drained the batteries as fast as they can for whatever reason. We've never been able to drain the SR below 100 miles range even in sport. Not sure why these guys would purposefully TANK the ranges of both these bikes unless they have a gasoline bias.
Esse Esse 9 is really king in this "commuter" / mostly urban riding category, while it may not be cheaper than the SR or the FXS, it's SR/F price with fast charging and 250 miles of range.
Credit to Harley for building a proper bike. The looks have grown on me, and the finish looks outstanding. Much more cohesive than their other recent sporting efforts. Just too bad about the price, since it's clearly not where the market is. Just take the hit and sell it at accessible price point to get new people stoked about Harleys for once. The baggers and Screaming Eagle catalog will make up for it.
Yep. They should sell this first gen model at a loss to get new customers.
They've said this is the halo model, fully loaded. Cheaper, less equipped models will follow.
I’m sure they’re going to do what Tesla did: release a high-end model that generates hype, following, and a sense of premium, then gradually release more affordable “economy” models down the line.
@@usmcvet0313 They have launched the Livewire brand the bike is $22398.90 FULLY specced out FAR cheaper than Harley Davidson Livewire. You can see it for yourself at livewire.com
@@MANdoesminecraft yep, saw that. It will be interesting, though HD dealers will no longer be servicing the new branded ones. They're only opening a handful of LiveWire dealers in major cities in the US, so that's kind of a drag.
Guys very boring video
I was looking forward for bike riding video
Drag racing of these bikes etc
And you can have discussion out on road
This is so boring
"100% zero charge". I really can't believe I'm that UA-cam commenter now, but I simply am compelled beyond all reasonable measures to inform you that a term for this already exists: "0% charge."
Lmao 😂
Electric Motorcycles are just freakin awesome.
Amen to that.
Damon Motorcycles
:)
This is CLEARLY a paid for piece by Harley.. both because of the clearly biased outcome against Zero which was obviously put in for "show", and the flagrant omission of Energica, which is a leading player in this sector. I understand @Cycleworld needs to stay alive financially, but this is a joke.
Yeah it's a shame companies still do this but the old adage still holds true "Money talks and bull$hit walks".
That's the same as me claiming you are a Zero employee posting a biased comment because you're throwing a tantrum over the result. Both statements are baseless rubbish, but if you're going to claim whatever then it's free game isn't it.
:)
I rode an Energica 5 years ago. It was cool
ua-cam.com/video/XEKxs6MPwbI/v-deo.html
In any other context, if two products were that close and one was 150% of the price of the other...
As a ZX14R owner I'm actually very interested in either of these. I think EV has so many positives that it would be foolish to dismiss them. Also, charging options in the future may be better. Imagine a home solar panel/storage for charging. Sadly (but not really) I live in Arkansas. Fast chargers are available in every major city but on any given Sunday here you could very easily find yourself miles and miles from any charging facilities. But if I was hanging close to a major metro area (currently NWA) I love one for short rides or work commute.
Exactly, I also have lots of fast charging stations, that has to be the way EV goes, either more fast-charging or more efficient battery technology.
On a very hot day in Michigan we have Brown outs not enough power to run all the air conditioning in homes.. they even have rolling born outs so Farmers can't irrigatge how messed up is that ?
Damon Motorcycles
I’m not quite convinced that this review highlighted all the positives of Zero and justified if the highlighted positives of Livewire deserve a $9000 Premium..
Exactly. I went into the review neutral. First they drained the batteries as fast as possible and complained that they didn't live up to their factory estimates (taken in eco mode for both, which they didn't do), so that's a gasoline bias, and second, they kept glossing over zero's major cost/charging advantages in favor of minor fit and finish type advantages of the Harley. So gasoline bias, Harley bias. 10k difference in price is A WHOLE OTHER BRAND NEW BIKE, but remember, these two got to ride these for free, and they didn't have to struggle to find a harley dealership to charge at. They forgot to pick a bike from the perspective of a normal person looking to BUY a bike, not just joy ride.
@@dylandog1289Ive seen both and sat on both... I didn't see a fit and finish quality difference. I think it's a matter of taste. I like the Zeros styling... Nothing wrong with the hog though. It reminds me of an 80s chopped Yamaha Virago.
Jawz Agreed, the styling on Zero/HD/Energica is great. It's where you get to range, cost, charging, and actual frame choices that things get more tricky.
The harley is 7000 more. Yeah it should be better. Imagine how tripped out the zero would be if you had 7 grand to customize it.
@@nickdroomer1708 US prices put the base Zero SR/F at 20k and the harley at 30k. The Zero premium bumps it up to 22k, but still 8k difference. One of the advantages of zero being around so long is they offer solid, reliable e-bikes all the way down to 8k. The SR/F was made (CEO's words) to attract people to the brand in hopes that they would buy one of the mid range bikes. Something harley can't do when they decided to go with a premium option only. An aggressive move for sure, but it may backfire because they're trying to attract younger riders and e-bike folks, but they won't get either at that price, not in the numbers they'd like to see.
Makes sense for a commuter bike. Especially if it were cost-effective. For sport-touring...nah.
Well where's Eva Esse Esse 9 and Ribelle?🤔
Yeah, these bikes would be great for the type of riding I do, and I love the look of the SR/F. Too bad the base price is $19.5k USD.
@@freezingCode Shop used. Picked up a 2017 Zero SR for just $10k. It's about as good as either of these bikes, and $10k works for the value.
5putput wat
You guys have to understand how batteries work. The percent on the dash means nothing. Battery discharge curves fall off at the end.
If I'm going to commute on electric in the city, it will be on a bicycle. You don't need license, plates, registration, inspection or insurance. It is way cheaper and FASTER because you can use bicycle lanes, bridge paths, and filter traffic and you do not have to look for parking. Plus you can swap out the battery and take it with you to charge while you at work or home.
like Onyx, Monday, and Cake electric motorbikes
@@jib14k Anything with more than 500Watts and 20mph speed, requires license, registration, plates and insurance.
Is it just me or they are biased against zero?
Constantine Shcherbyna it seems that way because the HD is better and they are calling it like it is.
Sounds like it
@@MattLaidlaw Haha. Too bad it's the opposite with their overpriced road bikes.
It’s not a totally unbiased review.. At the end of this video the questions that arise are “Have they focused enough on the negatives of Livewire ? Do the positives of Livewire they mentioned deserve $9000 premium for Livewire ?”
They absolutely are. They’re comparing them without considering price. They also “tested” the range in sport mode ringing the throttle when the estimates are from eco mode not ringing it. Having level 3 only is a HUGE screwup and im sorry, there isnt $10,000 worth of extras on the harley. Thats the price of a brand new 650cc bike and it does very little better. I’m biased, but biased to the cheaper bike that charges at actual real world charge points, thats ALSO AMERICAN MADE, and has 14 years of R&D behind it.
$8k price difference? Better performance? Been in the electric bike biz for over a decade? Zero all the way. The reviewers know who advertise in their rags, and it's HD.
Exactly.
Put the quick chargers on the Zero and the price difference is less than $5k and the Harley will still charge twice as fast. The Harley has done an Iron butt 1,000 miles in 24 hrs. The Zero can't.
Thomas Pike yeah but I would literally never ever do 1000miles in 24hrs and neither would 99% of owners so that shouldn’t be a factor in the buying decision.
The Zero’s have had a lot of recalls though, something to consider.
@@asueirhshshe harleys have recalls all the time.
there has been 1 recall on the SR/F
I would take either one but when it comes down to price it will have to be the zero.
Damon Motorcycles
Most people feel the same way. I sat on the Livewire and first impressions were that it was uncomfortable and top heavy.
They're only $3k difference if you option out the Zero with everything the Livewire comes with standard.
@@usmcvet0313 but u charge the zero at home
@@user-gj6lm9zv9s same with the LiveWire
Not distinguishing between kilowatts and kilowatt-hours makes motorcycle journalists look stupid
Battery packs have a capacity defined in kilowattHOURS (Wh/kWh), power of a motor/controller is defined in Watts.
What a great video review of the two major EV motorcycles! Everything is neatly covered. This is the type of comparison that interested buyers truly need! You both work very well together with experience and knowledge. Will look forward to more such videos and information on all types of motorcycles!
Kinda what I thought as well.
The price is lower on the zero and that’s where the benefits end. The LiveWire is faster acceleration, faster charging, more premium finishes, more confident in the turns, and has a much better dealer support system. LiveWire is the clear winner.
Faster charging: IF you have a level 3 charger close by otherwise at level one the Zero beats the Harley by 3 hours. And the price isn't negligible. If it was $1,000 or even $2,000 I'd agree, but we're talking a difference of $8,654. I'm curious as to what these guys would buy given the real world scenario of having $32,000 to drop on an electric bike. Is that extra half second 0-60 time and better fit and finish really worth almost $9,000?
@@Genisin I think the Livewire is the better bike. Felt better in my test rides compared to the Zero and has better build quality. I ride in the city and use Level 3 chargers all of the time for free. So, yes I bought the Livewire.
Craig Lamar For $9k more, it should have better fit and finish. It should be FAR better in so many ways, buts it’s just a “lil” bit better.
Things wrong/left out with this comparison:
-First, I like the design of the Livewire. Maybe even a bit more than the SR/F. I've been following E-Bikes since 2010, and have no bias towards or away from Harley other than not being a cruiser type rider (but riding with many on the weekends). That being said, my wife does own a 2018 Zero SR, and I plan on buying an SR/F this summer, based on actual long term research and numerous test rides.
-The factory range estimates are taken in eco modes and not in full blast sport mode as shown here. Our 2018 Zero SR averages 120 miles every single time we ride it.
-0-60 times are exactly the same for these two bikes. If you average all the reviews and tests online and don't take one for absolute granted, they're both in the 3-3.5 range.
-The importance of Zero having Level 1&2 charging vs Livewire having 1&3 only was glossed over. We live in a metropolitan area with a LOT of chargers for different types of vehicles. Nearly all are level 2. There are a few Tesla chargers, but one, ONLY ONE level 3 charger. At the Harley dealership. If you don't or can't go there to charge your bike. You now have a $30k bike that takes 9 hours to charge.
-Glossing over the fact that your only option for fast charging (as of april 2020) is very likely only the dealership and having to PAY for it, when all of the other level 2 chargers in town are both numerous and FREE, is a huge oversight.
-Zero ONLY makes electric bikes. They're an American Manufacturer that has been developing and making them since 2006. They make everything in house. They have an entire LINE of bikes starting at $8,000 and maxing out at $21k. Harley has the $30k livewire. Pick one of two colors. I'm aware the video is a comparison between two bikes, but it's important to note that the $15k Zero SR is just as fast as the livewire, has more range, charges at all the points in town and not just the dealership, and costs HALF THE PRICE. But again, not mentioned here.
-Though the price was mentioned, it was not put into perspective. You're paying $10,000 more than Zero's premium bike for less range, same speed, different looks. That's an entire BRAND NEW 650cc bike. If you go with the Zero SR (same speed, more range, much more charging options), you can get a brand new 650cc bike AND $5000 in cash for the cost of the Livewire. But again, not mentioned or contrasted.
This review was done purely on the perspective of two people that were given free bikes to test ride and them picking them based on how they felt while riding them. There are many more factors to consider when you think about the VIEWER choosing which one of these to BUY, not test-ride.
I live in a metro area that has 31 DC Fast Charging stations. It has tons of Level 2 charging stations as well, however, those are primarily 6kw max. So, for me, the Livewire with Level 3 charging makes more sense. 1-hour charging vs. 2 hours or more with level 2. Also, there are other reviews online that show people preferring the Livewire to the Zero for the same reasons shown in this Cycle World video. ua-cam.com/video/a-JAgBEjWps/v-deo.html Truth is Harley-Davidson built a great electric motorcycle. Yes, I am a fan of Zero as well. Another Zero owner posted a video of him breaking the belt on his Zero SR motorcycle. Now, luckily he had a spare one handy, but if you were on a Harley, with their dealer network, they will come get you and pick up your bike if necessary. That was also left out as an advantage. Now, the $23k for the Zero SR/F premium with faster charging added compared to the $29k Livewire. I think the $6k difference is worth it for the reasons mentioned in this video.
I totally agree with Kirk's points. Two months ago, I was in the market for either an SR/F or a Livewire. The performance of the two bikes is similar. But around me (Colorado) level 2 chargers are abundant; level 3 CCS DCFC is very rare. Also, the maintenance intervals and expense for the two bikes is dramatically different. The Zero is simple, with no gearbox (motor oil), no coolant. The Harley was engineered to make a gear whine, and all Livewire owners are now left to change that oil regularly. With the Zero, I could buy the bike, and never return to the dealer for maintenance ever again! Oh, and the Zero costs about 2/3's the price. I bought my Zero SR/F Premium in early February, and have been loving it immensely!
Craig Lamar The video you refer to is from NEWZEROLAND, a New Zealand based Zero enthusiast vlog. He was riding through the mountains with a buddy who had a spare belt at home. They chose to fix it right there. No dealership call needed. Zero's are sold at dealerships just like Harleys, and each dealership has it's own roadside plans on offer. (Anyone can also have their own plan through any number of services of their choice at any time.). I'm not sure I'd call "free" roadside assistance an advantage here. It's already overpriced, so is it really free? At $6000 over the price of the SR/F with the same charge speed on a wider network of chargers, that's a lot of money for "free" roadside. I like both bikes. I freely admit I love the design of the Harley, but they simply cannot justify the price. Look at any comments section and tell me the majority of comments aren't focused on the price being too high. They refuse to start affordable for whatever reason, and I hope it works, but right now for casuals mildly interested in electric bikes, they dip their toe in, see Harley at 30k, and avoid the segment all together before taking note of Zero (compliment to Harley's advertising power). If I had it my way, Harley would drop the price by 6-10k, and Zero would seriously up their advertising game. In the end I hope everyone at least throws a leg over an electric in the coming years, just to give it a shot, it's exciting times out there.
Yet, at the end you buy the bike that you want to ride, the one that makes you feel good. Otherwise it’s just electric motor on two wheel🤷🏻♂️
@@dylandog1289 Not to mention at the price of a livewire you can get an Energica Esse Esse 9 already with more power and much more range, and even cost less or have more budget spare for accessories.
Harley is already having problems. 30 grand is a hard sell for an electric bike. An even harder sell for an electric Harley.
Especially when Zero has american made e-bikes starting at 8k, and makes one that matches the speed and out-ranges the livewire for half the price. That's HD assuming the brand will let them charge double.
These are nice addition to the market. Still, I think Energica still has the best electric bike on the market.
So nothing to split them then.... except $9,000.00. I'll say that again for the hard of hearing...
According to the review, the differences were that the HD has (a) better stability/confidence in corners, (b) faster charging rate at a level 3 charger (and slower at a level 2 charger), (c) better build quality, and (d) the higher price you mentioned. You may disagree with that build quality assessment, and the first two may not be important to you, but they are differences highlighted in the video.
@@elimgarak7330Oh, I heard those loud and clear Elim, but I do appreciate you taking the time. But I also heard them say "It's hard" (to pick a winner) and the HD costs $9k (33%) more. And that is a big red flag. I've ridden the Zero and it's an excellent bike, which handles well and has nice build quality. And I own a couple of $30k bikes so purchase price isn't an issue for me personally. But fair VFM is, and IMHO (and those of many publications and other UA-camrs) the Livewire doesn't make a sound proposition financially speaking. For ref: I'm not brand loyal and have owned a number of modern Harleys. Put it this way, if either of them had got this right, they'd have waiting lists that would be the envy of Tesla. But I haven't seen a single one of either bike on the road, that wasn't a demo machine. In the last year, the HD share price has halved and they fired the CEO. Personally I think that's a clear indication that HD is getting more things wrong than right, at a time when other brands such as BMW, KTM and Triumph are all growing.
@@RichDunn I'm sure the shareholders were not too happy to hear that the CEO said in an interview they don't expect to sell a lot of units, which MIGHT have had someting to do with him being "let go".
@@joevidya We all go to work to make a difference for the better. If we don't or can't, then it's time to move on, before that decision is made for us. The only things they've arguably got right this century is the 103/107, dyna/softail merge, the Fat Boy/Fat Bob revamps and moving to Italian brakes and Japanese suspension. Nowhere near enough. A liquid cool 100 hp Sportster, and an Adventure bike should have arrived a decade ago. A Storz style flat-tracker too. To get a six axis IMU (std on an Indian Challenger Ltd) you've got to buy a $40k+ CVO. More importantly, instead of arrogantly assuming what their next customers want, they should have just asked non HD riding '20-40' year old's what they'd need to offer, to gain their business.
A clutch is a medieval tool. Its slow, its annoying af, its crap. Suck it up.
The harley is one of the best looking bikes I've seen
Agreed! Certainly the best looking electric motorcycle.
The proper term is DC Fast charging . Saying Level 3 is confusing because it could be AC Level 3 using an onboard charger and the kW level of DC fast charging is DC Level 2 or DC Level 1
Love the looks of the Livewire!
It looks a little to bulky and is definitely way to heavy for me......Not to mention being way over priced.....But then again it's just another overpriced Harley.
Really sharp looking bike! 🤙
I'm a naked bike guy and that Harley is absolutely gorgeous.
I like the design of the Zero more, but the blinkers and the brake calipers look awful, HD wins in that deparment, hands down. Also, though the range is pretty bad on both bikes, I like that the numbers are closer on the HD to what they claim and that they don't limit you on the last 10% of the charge.
The numbers from the factory are tested in "eco" mode on both bikes. These guys rode in sport, trying to drain the batteries as fast as possible. My wife owns a Zero and averages 120 miles per charge (plugging in around 10% remaining). Absolutely DO NOT go by the numbers here in the video.
I think the Energica Ribelle is better than both of them. However, the Energica Ribelle is a premium piece of Italian engineering kit, with a price to match.
$7k difference in price is ridiculous. Fit & finish maybe $1K difference. I think the Bosch control system on the Zero is superior to the HD system. HD trying to recover R&D quicker on their ROI. The range on both of these is terrible for a typical twisties jaunt. If the range were 150 the price might be worth it. Still more fast charging infrastructure needs to be built out.
the range is still a factor but you guys I think were riding them hard when you got that low mileage. Harley is definitely more refined in my opinion and the quality is second to none. great video.
Damon Motorcycles
30k!!!! hahahaha well done harley well fucking done
Whaaaaaat? Hard riding reduces your range? What a shock. You mean if i take an r6 to the track i won't get 40mpg either?! I'm stunned. Stunned i tells ya.
Might be the worst review I've ever seen. Soooooo much rambling. It's like watching someone zoom a camera lens in and out of focus over and over and over. Worse, neither of them really seamed to know jack about charging, or electric vehicles in general. And omg, they chose the bike that's $10,000 more expensive, yet offers (essentially) no extra performance - or more importantly - range. For the price of the HD, you could buy the SR/F AND one of Zero's smaller dirt bikes. There is no contest here. Zero by an electric mile.
Two American made offerings with no parking brake (duh), no left hand brake lever (rear brake still activated by right foot ... but why?), no high/low/neutral-disengage ability (for to maximize accel/top speed or free coasting down hills) to extend range, no built-in charge controller or charging cables, no hill-stop brake hold feature, and no reverse (adding reverse to an electric vehicle is cheap-n-simple and makes maneuvering easy)! These are half-baked offerings, but i want ‘em both!
I guess parking brakes would be a thing for e-bikes-no engine compression. They do have deceleration energy recapture. Freewheel coasting is not the best idea.
Not a harley fan but I would the harley over the zero
less range. more weight. unable to quick charge at more common level2 charging stations. expensive. still wins the comparison. i am pretty sure this is a paid video.
Wow...electric bikes? I was completely 'shocked' to hear about HD getting into electric bikes.
Given today's 'current' situation, electric bikes make sense.
HD should 'charge' less for their model
Maybe if bike manufacturers 'amp' up their marketing budget, more people would show less 'resistance' to the concept of electric bikes.
OHM gee...i'm done with all the pun, having fun from 'D.C." (District of Columbia)
"Current situation"???
You mean with super low gas prices and excess oil reserves ?
😆😆😆
Lol.
Damon Motorcycles
@@shuff1111 Start Up marketing 'hyperbole' sounds good...let's see what the final product pricing and performance will be like, that is, IF they actually produce anything...
@@elmoomle4565 They've at least produced a prototype and have had test rides....looks promising...
I wonder what became of Victory's e-bike. They bought out Brammo and put their name on it. I test rode one about six years ago at a bike rally and was very impressed and that instant torque is lots of fun. The other folks in line were saying mostly that they liked it but $20k was too much. Now years later Harley releases essentially the same bike for 10k more. What am I missing?
The Empulse was an engineering achievement that won races (Pikes Peak and others). It's a shame that that platform is no longer being developed.
I like these bikes but economically fuel and price is already cheap on motorcycles so I only see people buying these cause they like electric/think they are badass. But that range is so bad . This is true range cause these guys are regular dudes.
Am I the only person that doesn't carea bout clutch? The fun comes from acceleration and turning.
My Honda Honda NC 7oox gets 75 mpg. I paid $4600 brand new as a left over. It's kinda a no brainer.
Same here with my 2019 cb500x..except 5 grand price
What happens when the battery has it's day how much will a new battery cost more than the bike I suspect
The Zero comes with a 5 year unlimited mile warranty on the battery and it has an estimated shelf life of 200,000 miles before it loses 20% of range. I haven’t seen many bikes apart from the big tourers my old Gold Wing that got even close to that many miles without major issues.
I know what your saying. If someone ever barn finds an EV in 20 years, leave it. No battery to be found. Unlike gasoline, batteries have to fit. Hard enough to find motorcycle parts now in many cases.
@@Mytwistedvoices maybe by then they'll have even smaller batteries that fit right in. Look how modern li-iin batteries fit right in old motorcycles.
@@Mytwistedvoices, Zero is committed to making any future battery tech retro-fit their older bikes. Haven’t read the same from Harley.
@@alexwilsonpottery3733 I own a Harley (Vrod), I don't think you will read anything about that
So when you ran outta juice, AAA came by and poured 5 gallons in the tank and you were on your way, right?
Oh, right.
@5putput Don't get me wrong, I really like ebikes, but the battery tech isn't there yet. You have to get reasonably close to gasoline fill times and range, and they just aren't there yet. Capacative batteries? Maybe, li-ion and li-po isn't cutting it. Graphene might work, but there isn't enough of it yet.
@@Unclefacts Substantial quiver of improvements about to be announced by Tesla.
ua-cam.com/channels/IFn7ONIJHyC-lMnb7Fm_jw.html
It would be cool if they could have an easy access battery post. Then you could have a little hand held jump box in the saddlebag or backpack that could be a reserve to get you 5 miles or so down the road.
@@Unclefacts But what if you just wanted to bust around town for 3 hours or so on a Friday night and not deal with oil changes or a dead 12v battery from it sitting? These bikes are not meant to replace every bike on earth.. but for the people who ride less than 75 miles a day.. which is almost everyone.
Ok, let's assume you buy one of these. You just spent about 20K for a bike that has less than a hundred usable miles of range. My average daily ride is more than that, and I know a hell of a lot of other riders that ride more than that.
You're also limited to that range. Want to go more than a hundred miles? Nope. Not unless you're willing to sit somewhere for a couple hours every hundred miles.
Still does nothing for the scenario where you run out of juice.
So you spent a serious amount of money on a seriously limited toy, that is seriously limited on what you can actually do with it.
Get the charging times down to an acceptable level, say 15 minutes, and you might be able to compete with a gas bike that can refill in less than 5, and have full range immediately.
As for oil changes, that's a non-issue. They cost next to nothing, and they're incredibly simple to do. It isn't a valve check.
If they figure out the battery tech, like graphene or capacitance, it might, might, make these a viable substitute for a gas bike. Until that happens, they're not much more than a scooter that's faster.
Im not soldd yet too pricey for no range. motorcycles are gas sippers already.these are heavy also so i dont even see this in 10 years of tech being worth the anxiety and having to worry about my ride not make it to my destination.tesla cycles where ya at?
If I was to pull some numbers out of my @ss, I'd say 90% of UK bikers aren't willing to fork out £21,000 for the Zero no matter the pros... and 99.5% won't fork out £29,000+ for the Harley.
Y'know, I like actually y'know like like this y'know video y'know actually. It's like y'know very good and y'know like I actually was looking y'know forward to an intelligent like y'know comparison actually.
Got to borrow a Zero for a weekend. Nice, not stellar, bike with really fun torque, but the range limitations were brutal. If you like to ride quickly (aka normally) you can barely break 60 miles. Then you don’t ride for hours and hours. And you get all that constraint for more than you’d pay for a top spec gas bike of any class. To me these are both early adopter products that aren’t ready for the real world.
Where's the Zero SR/S?
Right away, I notice the Zero being rated for 123 miles, vs. the Harley at 96 miles. The Harley should have a nearly identical range, with it having a slightly larger battery? Someone must be lying? I feel like Harley is being honest and transparent with their figures, and that is how you build long term customer loyalty.
Yeah I think Harleys honesty is awwwwesome - Claiming 95mi - And delivering 71mi!
Harley is conservative with their published range figures - I know a Livewire owner who has been able to get 140 miles regularly after tweaking those settings. Don't let the numbers fool you.
That harley is BEAUTIFUL.
@james braselton i think im gonna get a honda rebel 500 i only hop around the city.
I used an EV to take the family once, a 500-mile round trip. This was 3 years ago, which is ancient history for Electric vehicles...or ought to be. Thing is, these bikes, these specs, are actually rooted in designs from perhaps as far back as 5 or 6 years? It’s weird having the latest and greatest, yet to know it’s already outdated. The EV car world is now up to the desirable but affordable cars having 40kWh to 65kWh batteries (eg typically the Hyundai Kona exemplifies this) and so 250 miles range. My EV only had 30kWh and frankly when I pushed it hard like an ICE vehicle, it simply guzzled energy, we went less than an hour and had to recharge, and recharging was so slow it was basically one hour on the road and the same charging, so I was forced to slow down and travel a shorter route that used less major roads, doing maybe 50mph max. This was a crippling experience, trying to squeeze this trip into a weekend, which was perfectly do-able with an ICE car.
These bikes, seem basically where those EV cars were, 3 years ago. To be hindered by the same constraints (range, price) is a real handicap. Many will have to change their main motor vehicle to electric before their leisure bike, because that’s where all the savings are. Of course, there are no savings in the USA at the moment (spring 2020) because gasoline is excruciatingly cheap on account of the oil glut most recently. Here in Europe (the UK) this is totally different. Even with a glut of oil, our gasoline prices (petrol) are stubbornly above roughly $5 per gallon.
It seems somebody’s not willing to drop below a UK pound per litre at the ‘gas’ station over here. the government of course, relies heavily here on the 60% tax revenue or whatever, ie the UK govt gets more money for every gallon than the fuel suppliers do. It’s all a little anti-competitive, but does mean EVs of any sort seem much cheaper to fill with energy, to the general tune of a quarter to a fifth for any given distance.
There is a big issue on motorcycles that go electric though, which is the constraints on the present battery types. Essentially, experts say fast charging is in the 30% to 80% charge state. Outside of that, charging is slower. Sadly, we realise then that if you are quoting us travel ranges of eg 60 miles or 70 miles maximum, the ‘sweet spot’ for fast charging, is the 50% in the middle of that. IE Rapid charging on these bikes, is only going to get you 35 miles more range. That’s a dead dog.
The old EV car I used three years ago, you can now squeeze a 40kWh battery into apparently with no issues but the manufacturer does not do it. On short journeys like 40 miles or less round trip, you have no constraints of heating, speed or driving style etc. However, if you want to do a long journey say on a long weekend, the style I am used to in cars and on bikes, is say 120 miles to get to a camp site, then next day do 80-150 miles or more, and return to the campsite etc.
That’s simply not possible on these sorts of machines. Even using some of the ‘slow charge’ section of the battery charging, you only get another 35 miles max it seems, and I wouldn’t dare use more than 15 of those miles, because I’d be looking out for the next charging station. It would literally ruin a weekend’s break, if I ended up having to call a tow truck, wait for it, get it to take me back to the camp site...well, the practicalities are a real PITA. My fear would be that would become a common occurrence, which I think would trip some kind of red flag at the breakdown insurance company?!
Inevitably, like everyone else, I look at a comparison with my present cheap alternative. Being a family man on a limited budget, it’s a Seca II, which gives 64mpg easily and has 3 gallons before reserve (UK gallons). Range is seldom an issue therefore. As others point out, cost is not prohibitive either usually for gasoline.
I get why somebody free & easy with loads of cash would buy one. I love the lack of maintenance and the relative quiet is a novelty. My Seca II is nobody’s dream bike, but it cost me 10% of these motorcycles’ price, being used of course, and that’s another thing - if few people buy these new, and it seems likely they will be rarities/collectors items, the used market will be non-existent really.
Thanks for the exploration though, and this is obviously what’s coming down the blacktop towards us, and I really welcome that. However, my essential takeaway is these are already obsolete in terms of performance figures in the broadest sense, despite being the latest in this technology for bikes anyway! The eternal holy grail of batteries with more dense energy per kg or litre volume, is slowly being assailed. In automobiles, it’s enabled double the kWh in the same size in about ten years, up to date as of 2020. This might now move even faster. When the centre of gravity is low, the mass is not such an issue as long as you have a parking reverse gear. There are lots of lightweight offerings in electric motorcycles and e-bikes, and somewhere in the middle ground, I am sure that say a double-hub motor bike, that can do away with transmission weight etc, could appear one day. Cars are really where development seems to be moving superfast now, and ranges going up and prices dropping. It’s getting there! Thanks again, this is a good review I thought of the present situation of two big makes in the field.
Your fuel prices reflect large taxes which Americans pay in other ways.
I'll keep my Scout Bobber as a backup to my Road King Special.
@5putput It rides in a receiver carrier on the back of my Gladiator when I go wheeling out of state.
In 15 years, they will laugh at you with your motorcycle. Oil cost is not matter, these motorcycles will be faster and more reliable. Electric engineering is a much more competitive industry than automotive industry. Harley-davidson made their best choice there for millenium.
They both chose the Livewire as the better bike. Fit and finish. Handling. Speed. Comfort. Charging. I felt the same when I rode both bikes and bought the Livewire. Very impressed.
Craig Lamar For the price it better be. Just saying.
Let’s see...Zero has been around longer, is quicker, $10,000 cheaper....yes I’ll buy the Harley!
😂 for real!
Damon Motorcycles
Maybe livewire is the silent motorcycle in HD history.
Needs to go twice as far per charge. Just a toy at 72 mile real world range. You can't get further than 36 miles from your house! That's like 0.6 gallons of gas on my bike.
I can't speak for the Livewire, as I own a Zero SR/F. But for me to get less than 100 miles of range, I better be watching the radar detector closely, 'cuz I'd be riding it like I stole it! Those folks didn't do a real-world range test; they rode the bikes hard as hell, and reported some worst-case numbers.
@@fredecks4641 Interesting, thanks Fred
Wow.. I thought zero advertises at least 100 miles on the highway at 70mph with the 14.4 battery. This is very misleading or bad advertisement by zero
The testers used Sport mode and rode hard. Zeros specs are correct.
Having ridden the zero, hard to believe the Harley is better. However, I'm willing to test ride one to find out. Should be fun.
$ 21,495 or $ 29,799 . I wonder which one cost $ 8000 more? I bet you all know.
revisiting this video because I'm looking at these used now here in the uk.
livewire looking at 14 to £18k used ( 29k originally new now £22 new )
zero sr £7k to 8k
zero sr/f £10k
zero seems to have had more issues than the livewire with motor bearings failing, brake disks warping belts snapping and water ingress damaging the battery / charging components.
I'm tempted with the £7k zero but don't really want to deal with the problems especially the water ingress which could simply render the bike worthless if it kills the battery.....
Great subject and comparison, recommend the young guy stop interrupting Canet and finishing his sentences. It takes away from the discussion.
Both of these electric bikes put the anxiety in range. The actual range was way less than advertised unfortunately.
They also drove it straight. The slower you go, and the more stops you make, the further you can go.
Damon Motorcycles
Great video!
Love my livewire so far! Look forward to future range etc
It is offensive that HD is selling this thing for 30 Grand USD.
Especially when Zero (also designs and makes their bikes in the US) sells a $15k bike (Zero SR) with more range and the same 0-60 speed (wonder why it wasn't mentioned here...hmmm)
@@dylandog1289 All of that was mentioned in the review. Similar 0-60 times, similar real-world range, different pricing. All there.
@D PIW "Heritage" is absolutely not part of the Livewire's ad campaign. It is the embodiment of the opposite of HD's heritage, and nobody -- especially existing HD riders -- thinks otherwise. I think what they're using to justify the price is brand recognition -- which ain't gonna do anything for a bike like this that won't appeal to anyone who values that brand name. The fact that they didn't come in at a lower price point tells me that they don't expect to be able to make an EV bagger for which they can charge $30k-plus anytime some, so the Livewire can't work for them as a loss leader.
Funny have you priced the Zero. It’s almost the same price. Not half price at all.
All ranges listed in mixed riding. Test, twisty and hills. Bet you both are far better in the city. Regen braking helps with the range. You don't buy an electric bike for exclusive highway riding. Unless it's short highway stretches of 30 miles.
I guess if HD had too they can build something ..good .. I think they are looking over Buell Blue Prints .. Sports Touring Bike .. naked Street bike ect.. that's what Buell did 15 years ago or more..
Zero neuters their bikes through programming from 0-30mph for safety reasons. It's annoying sometimes on my DSR, but in the end I'm thankful for it.
When I study Harley's history its hard to imagine that they now have an electric alternative.
I had a Zero and had some problems with it. Zero were good at the start, but when it got to hard they just left me, they wouldn't answer my email at all. With all the trouble it's coursed me I will never get another one, and as an owner I had a heap of people talk to me about it, and how much I loved the bike, but now I have nothing good to say about zero after I was just dumped with zero help.
Okay, Nice review... When a traditional bike rider rides an electric bike they usually say something is missing. Thats okay. If you change one little thing, you start to see them in a better light. Electric bikes dont have to vibrate. Instead of trying to bond with the machine, bond with the road underneath the machine. You can hear and feel the road in a way you never could before, when the bike was the focus or it vibrated. Riding an electric bike is like reading the road surface like a blind person reads braille. P.S. I ride a 2018 zero sr.
@Ben Daulton I live in an area where you can go from large lakes to 10,000 ft mountain peaks in less than 20 miles. All of my day trips are 100 miles or less. Dont believe the hype. Range anxiety is for p@@@@@@.
@Ben Daulton That's on you. You are the one who wants to live in a place you have to commute 220 miles twice a week. I use my SR as my commute and be the delivery vehicle for my business daily. 5 Years and Ive only every run out of "gas" once. Plus I can do almost all my own maintenance at a fraction of the cost ICE bikes cost to maintain.
I get it. E bikes aren't for everyone. But currently, battery tech is the only thing holding EV's back and that will change big time over the next 5 years.
in 2022-23 the automotive alliance believe that there will be more E cars made each year than ICE Cars.
@Ben Daulton Awful value for what you want to use it for. Me, I'm loving the reduced running costs. I'm a year past past the breakeven point for ICE vs EV comparison so from here on it doesn't matter what MPG you get. Its still way more expensive to run than my zero.
Yes you can go further and can refuel in no time. To me that's not important.
That fact you already admit that this bike wasn't designed for you but somehow claim that it is awful value shows that your know absolutely nothing about economics and just like to hear yourself talk.
Ive never understood why people need to say, It cant do what I need it to do so its a joke.
As I said in my post. That's all on you and your life choices. Doesn't stop the Electric bikes being the future.
@Ben Daulton "especially given such a fad as electric bikes are" LOL
I have the SRS and I agree with the description of its handling. Road bumps while leaning particularly above 80 mph make it wobble( kinda frightening ) and it requires more attention than other sport ikes I own, for sure. It feels like the chassis isnt rigid enough. idk.
You guys have good dialogue. Easy to listen to
LOL .. I live in So Cal and I’m going to try like hell to find those roads
Try this route to Monterey and you'll find them.
Starting from E Ojai Ave
3 Turn left onto CA-33 N/California St/West Side Hwy
Continue to follow CA-33 N/West Side Hwy
4 Sharp left onto CA-58 W
5 Turn right onto La Panza Rd
6 Continue onto Creston Rd
7 Continue onto 13th St
8 Turn right onto Spring St
9 Turn left onto 24th St
10 Slight right onto Nacimiento Lake Dr/Paso Robles Rd
Continue to follow Nacimiento Lake Dr
11 Turn right onto Godfrey Rd/Nacimiento Lake Dr
Continue to follow Nacimiento Lake Dr
12 Turn left onto Interlake Rd
13 Turn left onto Co Rd G14/Jolon Rd
14 Merge onto US-101 N
15 Take the exit toward Greenfield
16 Continue straight
17 Continue straight onto S El Camino Real
18 Turn left onto Co Rd G16/Elm Ave
19 Turn left to stay on Co Rd G16/Elm Ave
Continue to follow Co Rd G16
20 Continue onto Arroyo Seco Rd
21 Continue onto Co Rd G16/E Carmel Valley Rd
22 Turn right onto CA-1 N/Cabrillo Hwy
23 Take the exit toward Monterey
Despite the weight the SR-F is the easiest bike I've ever tossed around turns, and this is considering my daily ride is a much lighter Zero 9.8s (378lbs).
Fantastic bikes, but here in Denmark the price difference is aprox $18000 😱 Zero is about $ 25000, Harley $ 43000 its bad.
VAT
Excellent comments; thank you. Also keep in mind the network of having all the HD dealers means quite a bit..
Hard to swallow 30K for a bike you can’t ride all day. Gas is cheap and easy to find. This will be a novelty until the price is down and the range is up.
why didn't you guys include the Energica Eva in this? has longer range than either of these bikes and just looking online, price is lower.
Only 70ish miles in canyon roads? I generally do 120 before stopping for breakfast. Maybe in 10 years?
Techs gotta start somewhere.
Remember the Nokia bricks we used to plug around? Now I'm watching this video and typing from a pocket computer with a screen flatter than TVs made pre pre 2005
Ooph harley used a bigger battery and still its 30 percent less range
@@bryanreilly4117 I completely understand tech, I've been in the computer industry for 3+ decades. I'm just not going to buy into the electric motorcycle game until it surpasses the gas powered one that currently exists.
@@bryanreilly4117 3 miles less range
These bikes are really for commuting not blasting around twisties for miles on end.
changing to a 50 from 55 profile rear tire on the zero would help it not fall into corner as fast and stabilize it some
It should be general knowledge by now but it still isn't, apparently...
The battery capacity is in kWh, NOT kW. And a kWh is equal to 3.6 MJ in SI units (you can do the calculation yourself, it's easy: a kWh is the energy provided by a power of 1 kW over 1 hour).
And by the way, 100 kW is equal to 136 bhp. Too few countries use kW as the power unit in their motoring press (Australia is one).
Could this guy be less confident? Asks questions like he wants to know if he's allowed to ask...lol
Zero motorcycle are a joke and a major ripoff. U are better off with an affordable chinese brand. I would never buy those zero great POS! This is the reason why zero will disappear as a company and go bankrupt. No wonder they are called zero, as in you get zero value! Stay away from this electric crap!💩💩💩💩
I say SR/F is the winner.
A extra 30% Harley Tax on an EV bike is outrageous. Maybe Tesla will roll one out soon and surprise us all.
I want to pay $30,000 for a 550lb tank that can only do 70mi - And then requires a trailer to retrieve to then spend 2.5hr to "fast charge" for another 70mi back home - So this will be fantastic :-) - Can hardly wait to see what depreciation I will suffer on resale!
Dealer support for Zero motorcycles has had too many negative scenarios for me to take a chance. Also mileage and charging times don't fit profiles I'd be comfortable with. No thanks...
Worlds most expensive urban bikes. Thanks but my scooter does me just fine for an urban life.
So the harley was running full power until the last 1% and made 71 miles. The zero was turtle-ing at 10% power left and made ~73 miles. So the harley has a higher range is what youre saying.
Not sure if anybody else feels the same way, but the Harley is kinda ugly. Something about the orange finish looks cheap. The Zero is *chefs kiss
Also the Harley is super expensive. I know there’s reasons, but it’s a lot for a motorcycle.
Why are there so people who think these bikes need a 150 mile range. Both these bikes have been designed for city use . The manufacturers are going by the average driver doesn't drive more than 50 miles. Both companies need to get the prices down. Zero needs to really work on their fit and finish. But I think it's a good platform to work with.
I would like to ask Elon Musk what he thinks, maybe he could come up with a solution. Or, maybe this explains why Tesla doesn’t make EV motorcycles.
"EV vehicles" . . . so.... electric vehicle vehicles?
"100% 0"? man I'm dying
Are there companies that sell aftermarket performance parts. Not even sure what that would intel maybe better battery 🤷🏽♂️ but like any ride I get I would want to make it my own and make it faster.