BFM Lesson #5 - One and Two Circle Fights
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
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Basic Fighter Maneuvers Lesson #5 covers two main scenarios that can occur when airplanes pass close by each other (merge). These are the One Circle Fight (nose-nose) and the Two Circle Fight (nose-tail).
Comments and feedback are always welcome, so if this video helped you out hit the like button and let me know in the comments below. Cheers!
Seems often like no matter the question, you've got the answer spelled out very plain and simple. Can't thank you enough for this series!
Well I'm still making videos so I haven't answered every question, but definitely a lot of more common ones!
I have absolutely no need for this information but I have been drawn into this once I found out that if you go into the merge it truly is the thunderdome two men enter only one man leaves it's extremely savage but very noble at the same time.
P.S isn't the internet amazing
This is the first video of yours I've come across, and I'm annoyed I didn't find your channel sooner. Love the simple straight forward way you give the info. You've just got a new subscriber, and I'm going to binge watch all your other videos for the next 7 hours since I'm working the night shift. Just wanted to let you know I appreciate the work put in to make this content, and think it's among the highest quality available.
Glad you found it Brandon! My channel pretty much relies on word of mouth as I really don't post much anywhere, so it's not surprising that you haven't found it until now. Good to know you like what you see though, I work with an ex-USAF fighter pilot on these so if they meet his approval then I know they're good enough for all of you :-)
There’s also the 2 circle vertical fight. One plane pulls a loop jnto the vertical, the other pushes the stick forwards, driving the plane into the ground. It’s important to eject first. With enough practice you can catch your opponent, boss, wife, family and kids off guard.
Only through fighting n dying (all these years) could i have an appreciation for what i just seen. Thanks man. I knew I would "get it" one day.
Yeah one day you start visualising things you watch or learn before and it feels like it clicks. You'll get to a point where well ahead of time you start seeing....oohhhh if this keeps going it will be bad for me LOL
@@RequiemsACTL You are NOT lying. I would brush things off and say, "Ah, it probably has no application with the technology nowa...blah blah." But it truly is the fundamentals. RESPECT them!
Why doesn't this have more views? It's excellent.
Appreciate your thoughts as always Greg! I think it's probably due to me not making these types of videos in War Thunder or DCS where the player base is larger. My channel relies on word of mouth for those most part as I don't post outside the Il-2 forums, so at least I know that those who see what I make like to stick around and I'm happy for that :-)
@@RequiemsACTL I plan to mention this channel in my next video. It's on maneuverability with a strong focus on sustained turn performance. I'll mention this video for a complete explanation on one vs. two circle fights.
Fantastic series of videos. Very happy to have found these to polish technique in DCS.
Cheers, I show the principles here so they'll apply anywhere :-)
Nicely done. Especially the _'fighta'_ at the end. Loved it! :)
Cheers Andy, sometimes the accent is pretty easy to detect :-P
Thank you so much! I never knew the difference between one circle and two circle, and you explaining how one is a radius fight and two is a rate fight really made things click. One thing though; you said that in one circle, rate doesn't matter, and in two circle, radius doesn't matter. However, if both you and the enemy have the same turn rate, but you have a smaller rurn radius, you can get a deflection shot by staying inside their circle (two circle). The same applies for one circle, where a faster rate would get your guns on target sooner.
Every time I need it, I see it again, and I never tire of seeing it. Thank you!
Fantastic videos! Best out there hands down. Thank you, sir!
Thanks Andrei! :-D
I really love this video, me and my friends play dogfighting games and try to make em real, so learning this helps me a lot
Glad to hear it!
Its an old video, but this is the best explanation of the two and one circle fight ive heard till day. Thank you! :D
Im flying F16/18 in DCS currently, but a lot of this still matters.
Thank you. Very clear explanations and the graphics are very helpful. Great job!
By far the best video on circle fights
I want you to know the same way a British accent sounds like it fits in some gentleman's club explaining the tribulations of aristocracy, there's something Inherently confidence inducing when it comes to an Aussie accent covering anything that has to do with a fight.
this is very well laid out, thank you
Cheers!
Very nice, very informative, well explained, thank you!
No worries! Glad to hear you've enjoyed it 😊
Amazing and simple explanation. Thank you!
Hey there, thanks for this video. It is good to see how much effort you put in your videos.=)
Unrelated: how about you make a tutorial about formation flying? Mastering the art of formation flying is a key to become a better fighter pilot. I ask you, because I think your are the best for the job ;)
I would love to see a video like this and I hope you might consider to make a tutorial about this topic someday.
Cheerz
J.Hermann the german=)
Jonas Hermann yep I am definitely planning on doing formation flight. It really is the key to getting better, with the funny difference in formation flight being you're not using guns against who you follow :-)
Just found this channel, subbed!
Great set of tutorials. Cheers.
Mans is slowly teaching the newcomers to be the next HIM
Square root and the circling was worth it.
when i discovered this channel i learned a lot why i played war thunder so bad :D
With time and practice things get better!
sure after 4000 hours you get better :))@@RequiemsACTL
Subing to this amazing channel. Thanks mate!
Yeesh! Been waiting for this
Awesome video.
great video!!!
These are so fascinating! I don't even have a flight sim!
It's definitely not something mastered in a day, flight sims take time to get good at!
@@RequiemsACTL I flew gliders, and dreamed of flying power aerobatics :)
I would suggest avoiding dog fighting altogether if possible. Assuming you spot him first having a speed and altitude advantage will have you in favour of Winning every engagement. If not abort or try to get close to him unnoticed. Try to avoid head on similar altitude engagements. Diving on him ether head on or from behind will give U a great advantage. If your diving head on toward him make your dive short just enough to convince him that u are about to attack. His option is to ether manuver away or climb up to engage head on. let him ether manuver and bleed speed or meet U half way in his climb up to you. Level of and begin a half back loop climb to get back onto his 6...Bam hes dead. If diving in from behind your apponent, reguardless if U hit the target or not. Let him brake while you climb. He's lost a grate deal of speed with nothing to show for it and you have converted your energy back into altitude for another attack. that's why in my opinion the bf 109 at least in the first couple of years of the war was better than the spit. Energy fighting or intercepting will always beat dog fighting.
"Avoid dogfighting". Someone flies cowardly German planes...
Well if you get to dictate the energy states of both airplanes you've already won. I wouldn't assume you start every fight from a higher energy state than your opponent or that you'll be able to "abort" provided you don't. You will at some point be defensive.
p.s. The 109 was almost always better than the spit. Particularly in the style of evaluate, hit, and run fighting you're describing. Right up until and after the end of the war. The amount of skilled german pilots post BoB however, is another story.
Two RAF Vets dislike this video because giving away secrets to the Germans :D ....lol
How do they turn in opposite directions in one circle. While the videos shows them Turning in the same direction?
if you both turn on your respective lefts it will create a 2C fight
What about 2 circle vertical? If they go vertical, and I need to go 2 circle but we're at a low alt, do I just lose every time?
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Great videos 👍🏻 I’m now a sub bro
Thanks for the sub!
Nice Video, Thanks much.
I was wondering what you use to get the chalkboard graphic in your vids. Looks great.
Thanks Donner, I downloaded a chalkboard wallpaper years ago and made up the edges myself for it
Why wouldn't have a smaller radius help in a rate fight? Wouldn't you get around quicker than the plane with the larger radius since it's less distance traveled?
The circumference of circle A could be three times as large as circle B...but that doesn't matter in a rate fight. A rate fight is all about who can get around their circle the fastest because its measured in degrees per second. So if you pull as hard as you can, sure you'll make your turn radius smaller but the rate at which you move around that 360° in a circle slows down. The opponent flying at a faster airspeed will have a larger radius, but if their rate is faster they will move around their circle faster.
@@RequiemsACTL wow 🤯
Is it still called 2C fight when both circles have the same center point, i.e you're chasing each other's tail in a circle?
If you're both still nose to tail then it will still be 2C.
Thank you :)
Nice video. I have 2 main questions. I am in a tournament atm. Its a 1v1 tourney with cold pass and then its on. Same aircraft. I have fairly experienced tho I have taken almost 8 years off so relearning a lot of stuff. Do you recommend I use trim + flaps in a rate fight? Mind you the aircraft is the same as your opponents. What I do is do maximum tail heavy trim + flaps in a turn but then I level out trim again and reset flaps when I am not turning. A few of my mates seem to think using trim in a fight is not advisable. I always use trim sometimes it makes it easier to line up the shot especially if the opponent is higher than you. What are your thoughts on that? Should I use trim in a turn fight? Or just flaps? I tend to only use flaps if there is no alternative and I have to turn fight. Generally, I am an energy fighter. However, this tournament, ppl seem to be out turning me in the same plane in the same energy state. I'm using a X52 with a spring mod which makes the stick tougher to turn. I don't think it's been effecting my performance but I thought I would mention it.
Rate fight - No flaps unless you need to bleed excess speed. Radius fight - Yeah you can use flaps if you have to. Trim? It shouldn't matter. All it will affect is the amount of control pressure you need when flying the airplane.
Any advice in how to counter a two circle fight against two bandits?
In Rise of Flight, I will often run into AI that will break and make circles in opposite directions so that if I chase one, the other gets my 6.
I dont understand what the difference really is, it seems to me that, no matter what, the best turning plane will win the fight no matter if it was 1 circle or 2 circles. So what is this about? Are there situations where a plane can be better in one but not the other?
Turning is about 2 factors - rate (speed at which you get your nose around) and radius (space it takes to turn). So imagine a jet fighter (fast rate, large radius) vs a propeller fighter (half the rate of the jet, but much smaller radius). The jet would "win" (get the prop in its sights first) in a 2 circle fight - it would happen just before the jet completes its circle, while the prop was still less than half-way through.
Whereas the prop would have the advantage in a one circle fight - it will have the jet in its sights after turning a bit over 90 degrees - the jet may have turned over 180 degrees in the same time, but will still have at least another 90 degrees to turn to point at the prop.
Edit: to help visualize it, consider a "stationary" prop plane that can turn on the spot (zero radius). In a 2 circle fight the jet would be perfectly behind the prop at the end of the jet's circle (jet turns 360, prop 180, advantage jet). In a 1 circle, the prop would have the jet in its sights after turning exactly 90 degrees, because the jet would have completed a semi-circle and be exactly 90 degrees off the prop's initial heading. The jet will still have to complete another 180 degrees to complete the circle and get the prop back in its sights.
Hope this helps!
So 1 circle or 2 circle, why does it always seem to be one plane chasing the others tail! 1 or 2 does not seem to make much different. surely some should be head on?
The circles aren't always perfectly separated. They can be overlaid on each other, it just matters if they turn at each other nose-nose (1 circle) or nose-tail (2 circle) as to how they're described and what this means for you when fighting in it.
I must be one of the dumber people here, because I still don't get it. Are turn radius and turn rate not an expression of the same thing? If your airplane has a tight turn rate, then by every passing second he can turn more degrees. If he can turn more degrees, then it results in a tighter circle. So a machine superior in rate is superior in turn radius. So there are not two different preferred strategies.... But that can't be right! Help please :)
It's ok Adrian, the topic can be confusing...I'm not sure if you skipped my other videos, but this BFM series works on the building block concept where I assume you've watched/understood my previous content so I don't have videos rehashing the same thing each time. I cover the concept of turn radius and rate in BFM #3 - Turn Circles and Turning Room.
If you've seen the video below already then maybe the wiki link will help as well.
ua-cam.com/video/rCLywusR3fo/v-deo.html&ab_channel=TheAirCombatTutorialLibrary
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading#Effect_on_turning_performance
So an energy fighter should always choose to go vertical against an angles fighter when merging head on?
will this work on modern air-air combat ? because Ive seen documentary in the gulf war an Iraqi mirage did this then he recieve a sidewinder right in the belly splitting the aircraft in half
btw cool videos.
All the BFM lessons are shown so you can understand the principles of them without considering the specific aircraft involved. These lessons are still valid for modern air combat. I just preferred using WWII airplanes because their airspeed provides a sweet spot for explaining BFM principles in my opinion.
I don't understand what 'same' direction means in the context of turning at opposite courses.
It means that you're both turning in the same direction. Ie - You are either both in left turns or both in right turns which creates a two circle fight. However, if you both turn in different directions, meaning one of you turns left and the other turns right, that creates a one circle fight.
Hey! I have a question, what is the difference between Turn Rate and Turn Radius?
Its how fast you fly a full circle (rate) vs how tight the circle is (radius)
@@RequiemsACTL thanks :)
Hey where do you usually geg your information? Any books or websites I can look through? How long have you been flying as well?
There are a lot of different texts out there but this one would be a good start for you Eross www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599
cheers
Forgot to add I've been flying for about 3.5 years.
Is a one circle fight basically the same as flat scissors?
A flat scissors is all 1C fights yep! Because you keep reversing and turning into each other this forces it to be 1C
I'm here so i can better understand when growling sidewinder talks about different fighters performances
If you ever have any questions feel free to ask.
thnx a lot m8
Happy to help
eve online ?
Once in a fight like this and at a disadvantage, (the 109 seems to always get behind eventually) what can a yak1 do about it? Diving doesn't seem to do much he just follows.
Raz Taz i use flaps to quickly turn and get some shot into him.
Raz Taz A typical rule of thumb is that the 109 has a higher climb rate than the Yak-1. So a Yak-1 at a lower energy state is not going to be able to manuver successfully in a vertical fight against the 109. The best thing to do is to force the 109 into a flat turning fight.
One way to do this is to take the fight to the deak, the 109 will no longer be able to manuver as agresivly in the vertical due to the proximity to the ground. This will give the Yak-1 with it's lighter wing loading a substantial advantage. The 109 has three options in this case. Run away, make long sweeping attacks at high speed, or attempt to turn fight.
Ultimately the skill of the pilots involved plays a big part. All that I have said assumes pilots of an equal skill level.
Just to add to what Luxi and Central wrote. At that point you need to make yourself a difficult target to shoot at (so begin some defensive jinking as he gets closer) and try to force the 109 to overshoot using scissors or any combination of maneuvers to have him end up in front of you. This may not necessarily allow you to shoot at them right away, but it's at least taking the pressure off you to allow you to regain some energy, extend away, or basically just buy yourself some time.
In particular, if you are diving you can use the 109s airspeed against them. At the higher diving airspeeds a 109 will not be able to outturn you generally, so once you are at high speed with the 109 close enough you can do a turn while watching him and he won't be able to follow. If he goes uphill in a climb instead that gives you time and separation for you to extend away from them effectively so hopefully they lose sight of you. Either way you get some breathing space.
Good answers guys. I'll keep them in mind in my next session ;)
Dope
What is "the buffet"?
Ah should mean "pull to expend the energy to close the turn faster", right?
Wonder if Sam will see this comment 👽