Feel like we see a piece of Ryan die inside when he realized while talking about replacing the florescent lights bulbs at about a rate of 2 per day that he is trying to keep up with the work abilities of a 1600 man crew 😂
And the 'geedunk' is purchased by the individual sailor. Chips, sodas, candy, ball caps, ships shirts and pt gear are probably included in your numbers. 1 million a day is a good estimate. All officers and cpo get housing allowance, enlisted e-6 and below if married get housing allowance. Officers get meal allowance, inport pay for meals eaten in wardroom, underway pay for all meals (eaten or not). Captain gets sedan with jr sailor as driver. Chipping and painting the ship, 2 part epoxy primer and 2 part epoxy paint. Glass cleaner and brass polish. Mops brooms dust pans sponges spray surface cleaner. Laundry soap and bleach for ships laundry. A bunch of hams and turkeys for thanksgiving and xmas. Wartime daily cost is probably 3 million a day. Modern warships cost more on average to operate daily due to more schooling and seniority before arriving to ship and inflation.
In 87-88 I was stationed on a WWII era ship that had two quad 40 mm Bofors mounts. Our training allowance for 40 mm was unlimited since there were two US military platforms that used it and they still had ample stores of WWII surplus ammunition
Ryan and crew, thank you for all the content this past year. You have REALLY stepped up your game and bring great credit upon the ship. I have especially enjoyed bugging friends and family with battleship factoids and I’m working on getting my wife to go on a museum ship vacation with me… Happy New Year!
My brother was in the navy at that time, but not on the _New Jersey_. Assuming he was typical, some of those baseball caps were bought by crew to bring home as souvenirs to friends or family when on leave.
Airlines were (maybe still are) making their profits off of buying futures. They paid for fuel in advance on discount, then resold it later for a profit. So yes, there is a no retail price if you can afford to pay ahead in bulk @@FP194
The $13 billion cost of the USS Ford carrier over it's 50 year life span comes to $712,328.77 per day. And that's just the cost of the construction. Imagine the cost when you add wages, jet fuel, ordnance, overhauls, defensive weapons, food, new uranium, etc.
Read a study done by an active duty US Army officer in the ‘90s that showed a BB would cost 1/5 that of a Nimitz class CV annually and was capable of engaging 80% of the targets hit by aircraft in all conflicts the US had been engaged in since WW2. He advocated that the Iowa’s be retained as they could replace at least 1 carrier w/o compromising long range strike capability in any region where carrier groups are regularly rotated and would still cost less money overall. ...USN still said it was too expensive to operate BBs🤨.
By the 1990s the Navy was not interested battleships as a concept. They cited either false reasons (cost as you note) or reasons that could apply to any ship at all ("It's vulnerable to Torpedos"). Never mind the fact that the battleships made an excellent showing in most all the chances they got - the only semi-exception was NJ in Lebannon, but that was the first time in 13 years anyone had used a battleship, so of course the crew was going to be unpolished.
@@leftyo9589 from research it was the ramming rod that was not going the slower speed when powder was being pushed in. There where reports it had been malfunctioning, should have been tagged out. Would make sense why the navy tried to cover it up. It was their fault in the command. You imagine what would happen in Mfg plant today if one blew up ( fertilizer plants) excluded
$10 million doesn’t go far at all for any serious dry dock work, comparatively simple commercial trading ships can spend $10 mill a month in dry dock, I would expect a fighting ship to be much more, a single weapons systems upgrade can consume $10 million +
In a past video you had talked about the most protected and survivable section of the ship. Going back to when after WW2 when a number of these ships were used to see how much damage they'd take after a nuclear strike. What would be the internal damage, to rooms, passageways and operational areas after a nuclear strike? And how far would the damage progress into the ship its self? You had talked about the ship using florescent light tubes for lighting. Considering how fragile the tubes are plus the contents inside I wouldn't think that would be a good idea. I'm always amazed by the amount of ordinance and parts that are still stockpiled probably not seen for decades!
Post Video Typing : Ryan asks about our Thoughts . Back in the Last Century I read a Bunch of Naval History Magazines . The Letters discussed ways to keep the Iowas going . One Idea was to Lay one up at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean ? A figure thrown around back then was $ 300 million a year for one Iowa to be Active and Happy . So Perhaps Ryan is Pretty Close .
While I don't have a better figure, I suspect the milllion per day was during war time when you have to replenish supplies under way, so you have to count the support ships plus the expense of running the ports it. docks at, warehouses of spare parts. But I do appreciate you bringing any figures to light as it helps nail things down even a bit. Speaking of spare parts, are there spare parts for unique items like the 16 inch gun barrels and the props? Or would they need to be custom made on demand?
I think the props would be made if needed. The US Army had a stock of 16" gun barrels that they finally scrapped around 2010. I base that year on a government liquidation auction posting. These gun barrels were kept for the Iowa class battleships which themselves were technically on the Naval Vessel register until 2006. Official US Navy sources had taken on a visible anti-battleship bias since the 1990s. The "million dollars a day figure" was one of their myths. The book "Ships and aircraft of the US fleet" had an entry on the Iowa Class battleships had an entry that erroneously described them as "dreadnaughts" (Iowa class were Fast Battleships, a much later development) and said that the battleship fans "took up arms against the navy's decision to retire them" and that "Congress forced the navy to keep them" *eyeroll*. It should be noted that "Ships and aircraft of the US Fleet" has been required reading at Annapolis. Battleships had limited range but were much cheaper than aircraft Carriers. The main reason battleships mostly weren't around in Vietnam was more to do with government officials' investments in bomb manufacturing than it was to do with realities of war.
They had a finite number of barrels which needed to be switched out about every 300 rounds fired. The thing is when a barrel was swapped out, all they needed to do was put in a new barrel lining and then the original barrel was ready to go again. It might be an urban myth, but the story behind the Iowa's being decommissioned after the Korean War was the lack of barrel liners, and that a large stock of them were found later, allowing the ships to be recommissioned in the 1980s
@@glenchapman3899 by the time they were recommissioned in the 80’s, the navy made some improvements to the powder that enabled the barrel liners to last way longer than 300 rounds.
1987 wasn't a real good year to pick in trying to calculate the million dollar a day operation. New Jersey spent 9 months at LBNSY including 5 months in drydock #1 undergoing extensive hull repairs. I'm sure a lot of the soda sales included thirsty yardbirds since working on a ship in drydock or the drydock itself is hot during Summer.
In 1987, as a 3rd class petty officer my base pay was just over $850 (not exact but pretty close) a month. So many people fail to think about the cost of payroll in the military. It's by far the single most expensive part of the military budget. I don't know if it's still a thing today, but in the 80's every ship at sea was required to carry enough cash to pay every crew member, even if we decided to hold that check to the next port. My ship had a crew of about 300 and we carried over a million in cash when at sea. That estimates payroll at 24 million a year for my tiny ship. We had a 600 ship Navy when I was in. Basic dumb math says about one billion a year for Navy fleet pay, shore based personnel outnumber fleet by 2 to 1. That makes 3 billion for payroll. Now add the Army, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard. That's a lot of pay. As another point of interest, the ship shown alongside performing UNREP at 3:30 is the same class DDG I was stationed on. The Adams Class DDG's are very recognizable. And always, Thank you Ryan and all the people there that dedicate their lives to keeping that great ship afloat.
Do you think we could get one on obscure, unknown jobs that battleships had that maybe a lot of people didn’t know about? Basically just providing info that maybe a lot of people didn’t know.. I can’t think of anything of the top of my head but you also know far more about, Iowa than I do. Lol. Keep up the great work, love watching these, sometimes I’ll rematch some of them 2-3 times in the course of a couple months.
Vol 1 1993 Great Ships of North America is an old magazine that I have on the Table where the email machine sits . There is a Loose page 59 tucked in it from Naval History Edited by Bert Hubinger march /April 1995 . Keep in mind that this info is Dated because its from the Last Century , Ryan can Curate accurate info for us . The announcement is the Iowa Class is Finished . John Dalton Sec O Navy is is informing Congress That the Ships were " excess to Future Requirements " . It is 4 paragraphs " After an Investment of 1.7 Billion in the 1980s to reactivate them , 20 million to lay them up a few years ago , and $100,000 per years needed to Maintain them in Moth Balls . It goes on and on , later it says . According to the Naval Sea Systems Command , it would Cost $95 million to Reactivate them Today . This is 1995 And S . Morison is the Name after the News Blurb . The video is Just Starting I will Listen to Ryan now . and Type again Post Video .
@@kentfrohock402 honestly, I’m not sure. It would depend on the locomotive and it’s condition. I’m a mechanic for them, and I know I can easily use More than $100K in parts alone on a single day. But overall, not sure.
I remember getting paid in 1987 aboard USS Rueben James as part of the AirDet - we got our check and moved down the line to CASH it. I guess it was about 1994 or 95 when we converted to direct deposit. Operating costs... I remember at the squadron we got a given amount of funding for FUEL - and as the end of the fiscal year approached we would have to adjust the flight schedule to make sure we JUST finished using the amount. Some years we would have ONE flight per day if we were running low on funds (like right after Desert Storm) - OR years where we were running 14-16 flights a day to burn all that money - if we DIDN'T - we got less money the next year.
That was cash or check direct into sailors officers hands each payday _ i think- The allotments to banks for Wife/ family is probably not included in that. "Direct Deposit" did NOT work/exist in the 1980s for shipboard sailors. So - if that safe door was a gun breech - what is its caliber?
I know during my USCG days that ever asset had a cost per day breakdown. The numbers would be used when charging companies like Exxon after the Valdez incident. I'd have to try and find the cost list again.
1 million dollars a day is not a problem for the Iowas to spend when the proverbial sh^t hits the fan and they're out at sea for combat ops. I'd be curious to know what it cost a day to operate the USS New Jersey during for a day during combat operations. I'm betting its much higher but very necessary.
It seems right to me because over the course of the lifetime of the ship, there are going to be some stupidly expensive times. I’m thinking mainly of refits. Add in the lifetime cost of the crew (wages are not total cost) through the gi bill and what not, and I’d be surprised if it was less than 1 million. Likely there are costs involved in supporting the infrastructure for the ship too.
I don’t remember hearing about replacement parts for the engineering department. Spare parts and consumables for maintaining equipment. Like grease refrigerant and lube oil for auxiliary equipment. But no matter what, each ship has a certain amount of funds for operating costs but during war, those budgets get inflated. So In peacetime the budget is pretty standard.
I guess the recommissioning, upgrades, overhauls, recruitment and training of the crew, procurement of all the spares and ordinance ready to support the ship etc should also be amortised over the period the ship is in use and that leads to the $1m/day number. But then we just get stuck into the discussion of how you should treat CAPEX v OPEX etc...
What is the cost of running one of the Nimitz carriers though? All these numbers are relative. Gotta shovel that cash to the military industrial complex.
$360m/year sounds high for operational costs but that number must include dry dock, shipyard maintenance, administration, support vessels even the cost of escorts. It's the type of number the Congressional Research Service people would come up with. I have said here before that reviving Essex carriers as ASW platforms would have been better, but the big mistake I think was to treat the battleship as an independent naval group with its own admiral rather than as a monitor brought out for specific operational missions.
This was below an average year that you chose. A non years year without combat would have been better. Also the million figure probably includes maintenance costs spread out.
Some of that expense is a navy overhead, that regardless of the ship concerned, as it is an expense anyway. Anything that is a navy expense for sailors/crew, IS NOT a ship operational cost. It is a maintenance cost - regardless of what/where the crew serve. Operating a battleship (or any ship) is that which is outside of the expense of maintaining a crew.
New Jersey was my best duty station of my 6 years in navy lost Tract of guys in my division 1st deck dept so hope I can get info about guys in my deck dept 1st division that have not seen since 1986
Great Video! What about the cost of the drydocks/refits they should do every 10 years? How much do you think they cost divided by 3650? I bet you're right thought. It may have equated to $1,000,000 a day at war, launching all of her Tomahawks.
That's a really tricky question. For aircraft, just calculating fly away costs is tough. I guess for ship operating costs would also have to include the price of servicing equipment. And if sailors are like soldiers, the real cost per enlisted personel isn't payroll or kit. It's training, health care, and human resource management.
To understand how the cost of operation is calculated we have to understand what is included. You have the direct costs of running the ship - payroll and consumables (e.g. fuel, food). Then you have to consider maintenance costs such as yard time, which is tracked pretty well for each class of ship and gets higher as ships age. Then there are ancillary costs such as training which can be relatively cheap for systems that are common across the fleet (e.g. CIWS) and involve few personnel, or very high for ship-specific or class-specific systems (e.g. running the steam plant). Then there are facility costs, and similar to training you have port facilities in common with the fleet, but items like the Mk.7 16" guns are unique, so all the costs of the ammunition storage and handling is charged across only 4 ships. It all adds up. Simply put, in the late 80's the Iowas were the most expensive ships in the fleet and that put them at the top of the list for decommissioning and disposal. The same type of accounting lead to the very early retirement and scrapping of the USN's nuclear cruisers in the 90's.
I think part of the issue is that might be over the lifetime of duty? Some years are cheaper and others are way more expensive. Just think when it goes to dry dock or any upgrades. I generally use the 10% of purchase price per year in costs/expenses. That includes fuel, crew salaries, marina fees, updates, food, supplies etc. Some years are way less and others are way more, but on average it works out to 8-10% ish. So in looking at the numbers the new costs in 1940 was about $100,000,000USD, so today that works out to $2.13B USD or in 1987 $811M. So in 1987 using the 10% say $80M/year or $219K/day? That seems more inline than the $1M/day.
LOL, you are forgetting about overhead! That ship would be charged for costs associated with the Pentagon, the Fleet Headquarters, the port the ship is assigned to, Crane Naval Weapons Station for service and storage of the things that go boom, the Medical Center the crew is assigned to, and lord only knows what else I am forgetting about.
One thing you might add. Before 1973 it probably cost even less per day to run, even considering 1940s money vs 1980s money. In 1973 the price of oil sky rocketed because of OPEC. And Bunker C, which was penny's per barrel went up to over $20 per barrel. Back before that happened they burned strictly bunker type oil. If oil prices hadn't gone to the moon they might still be running the Iowas.
Sounds like it should be more than a million dollars a day to me. You were trying your best guess at an average year on the ship's expenses. All the shipyard labor has to be added in. Any shore side support from admin to warehouse spare parts. The support ships (oilers or supply) that are required to keep the ship at sea should have a share of their expense credit to the battleship otherwise the ship cannot stay on mission. Training costs for the crew both at sea and on land. A boiler operator may require less training than an radar electronic tech in continuing training. It all cost money.
I wonder was $.90 for diesel the price the navy would have spent, as you would be paying wholesale rates and likely untaxed as it was for a military vessel.
Probably in all fairness to Ryan. I doubt he has access to the figures that the Government and or MoD pays for fuel. All he can go in is what the cost of fuel was at that time for you and I. I would imagine the Government / MoD pays a fraction of that cost.
$1 million per day to run 1 Iowa in the 1940s is not cheap but a fast battleship is not cheap as I will use Hood for comparison According to UK Parliament records, in 1919 it was estimated that the running cost of the Hood was £539,000 and if you use the estimate of Hood's upkeep prior to being sunk after adjusting the estimate over each year of the 20-year period to account for inflation brings the total to £9,369,763.30 which gives a daily estimated running cost of between £9,000-£14,000 a day this means the Royal Navy had spent an estimated £15,394,763.30 For context the last RN battleship HMS Vanguard cost £11,530,503 to build heck if the £4.500,000 hood refit was adjusted for 1942 inflation, that is £6.750,000 which brings the total spent to £22,144,763 and 30p If someone wants to figure this out in US$ go ahead
7:35 I'm curious, is the rate for fuel what the Navy would pay or is that street value? I think the DoD pays less than what you'd see on a street sign. Maybe as little as 50%.
I have to look at the life expectancy of the ship in active service. Is it 50 years or is it so many thousands of tens of thousands of miles on the engines. what periodic maintenance has to happen for different equipment and systems. Replacement of old systems with new. what work can be done on the ship for pumps and motors from stock on hand. Sure, you can look at the costs from the year, but the full pricing includes those years when drydock activities happen.
I would need to see the math on that. Keep in mind they were retired with a lot of life left so *potential* lifespan would have been pretty cheap. Anything is expensive if you massively overhaul and then don't use it very long.
It's actually easier to reach it by simply factoring in all the extra supply chains you need for the ships, as these burdened costs wouldn't exist if the ships didn't. This is likely where they aimed to get the biggest number possible to free up budgetting for whatever ambitions they had besides battleships.
that was very interesting! I would have thought payroll and fuel would be a higher number. of course, if you figure in majof shipyard periods for standard maintenance, you can kill any ship, financially. just imagine the cost of refueling / rebuilding a Nimitz class carrier at the 25year mark, something like 2bn or so.
Build and rebuild costs are part of the overall clst and need to be considered. If in the 18. C a ship cost on average 30.000 pounds to build, lasts 12 years, the armament cost 30.000 lasting 25 years (so good for two life cycles) that ship already has 45.000 pounds per 12 years, 3.750 per year. That is before stores, pay and upkeep. With modern battleships, I dare not even guess what they cost
sailors get paid no matter where they are so the may as well be on a ship. so far as expenses, again i point out that this is the navy....they have boats, ships subs and all other crafts. if you want to hit a traget in the ocean, you need to practice......so that covers ordnance. sailors gotta eat no matter where they are so again...that gets paid even if they're docked up. the only real cost above and beyond that wouldn't normally be covered would be fuel. again, its the DAMN NAVY and should be able to move their ships around.
Question for Ryan: are the fluorescent and other lighting being replaced with LED alternatives, or is this frowned upon? Would seem like it could save Ryan a lot of maintenance work, while cutting down on the operating cost :)
Ryan's mentioned this in a previous video, nearly all the flourescent fittings on the tour route have been converted over to plug in replacement LED tubes (you remove the ballast and wire the tube sockets directly to the incoming supply). it does represent a significant maintenance time and energy cost saving.
@@tech4pros1 Thanks, that's good to know. Those LED replacements for the old fluorescent tubes are indeed pretty awesome. Same light for much less power, years of service even running 24/7 and no fragile tubes to break.
Got a question. What if the thick armor on ships like the Iowas was replaced by spaced Chobham armor. Would they be lighter and still as protected? Things that make you say hmmmm....
But Chobham is blocky and would be only found on the superstructure and turrets. The hull is curved unless it's for the compartment walls especially the ordnance and fuel storage.
Any hit will cause the main armour deck to blow the entire superstructure off. Not unreasonable because long range gunnery tends to hit the maindeck, not the belt. So far I understand, Chobham mostly helps to disturb the penetrator in its flightpath, thereby reducing its penetration capability. You are talking about 20 to 30 mm solid shot rods. With scale laws, I wouldn't be surprised that for a 406 mm AP shell, a similar mechanism would be very unrealistic.
How does The Big J take on fuel? With a fuel capacity like that, is there a section of propulsion that manages it? Where is the fuel port? Is there a fuel gauge? A backup fuel gauge? Maybe a random hatch to stick a rope down to check fuel levels? Does the triple bottom hold fuel?
Trying to remember,,🤔🤔🤔🤔. The fuel transfer hose was either 4" or 6". There were always two used at once, fore and aft. We BTs handled the refueling and distribution of the fuel into the tanks. The Deck Apes took care of the hook up and release of the fuel hoses. The fuel tanks have gauges, but are also "sounded" with a weighted tape. BT USS New Jersey "85-87.
A million dollars a day seems high for an annual average, especially considering 1980s costs. It wouldn't surprise me if the ship cost a million dollars a day to operate at sea.
But what is the cost of running a battleship specifically vs any other modern ship since you would have to pay and take care of the sailors wherever they served.
@@FP194 The Iowa class, like all contemporary US Navy ships, didn’t run on bunker fuel. They ran on F-76 fuel, which is thicker than diesel, but not nearly as thick as bunker fuel. Two reasons: 1: the Navy wants to standardize fuel across all ship classes so that they can have one supply chain for fuel and don’t have to worry about operating multiple types of oilers. Ships with gas turbine engines cannot run on bunker fuel, and by the 80’s, most non-nuclear ships in the navy had gas turbines instead of traditional boilers. 2: bunker fuel is way too thick to pump between ships during an UNREP. Imagine trying to pump bunker fuel between ships when they’re in the North Atlantic during winter and it’s below freezing out.
Oh that’s so hard they are all SOO good. But probably the tinder swindler. Or summer wells. Or Dylan rounds. Any of those ongoing one. Oh Debbie colliers still throws me for a loop.
Feel like we see a piece of Ryan die inside when he realized while talking about replacing the florescent lights bulbs at about a rate of 2 per day that he is trying to keep up with the work abilities of a 1600 man crew 😂
Came here to say this! You really see it!! I busted out laughing!
I like how it uses less as an active ship than it does as a museum without 1600 people using it 😂 sounds like painting the Golden Gate Bridge though 😂
695k cans of soda and 240k candy bars? The ship doesn't run on bunker fuel, it runs on sugar
and caffeine!
And the 'geedunk' is purchased by the individual sailor. Chips, sodas, candy, ball caps, ships shirts and pt gear are probably included in your numbers. 1 million a day is a good estimate. All officers and cpo get housing allowance, enlisted e-6 and below if married get housing allowance. Officers get meal allowance, inport pay for meals eaten in wardroom, underway pay for all meals (eaten or not). Captain gets sedan with jr sailor as driver. Chipping and painting the ship, 2 part epoxy primer and 2 part epoxy paint. Glass cleaner and brass polish. Mops brooms dust pans sponges spray surface cleaner. Laundry soap and bleach for ships laundry. A bunch of hams and turkeys for thanksgiving and xmas. Wartime daily cost is probably 3 million a day. Modern warships cost more on average to operate daily due to more schooling and seniority before arriving to ship and inflation.
Wilford Brimley is the CO. Liberty medical is the XO.
Gotta keep the sailors going to keep the ship going
As a Army vet I can confirm that Army at least ran on caffeine, nicotine and sugar..lol
In 87-88 I was stationed on a WWII era ship that had two quad 40 mm Bofors mounts. Our training allowance for 40 mm was unlimited since there were two US military platforms that used it and they still had ample stores of WWII surplus ammunition
Burt Gummer (Tremors franchise) would actually crack a smile (exceedingly rare) if that was available to him.
Damn, and now the military is scrambling to find 40mm for the AC-130s.
I am addicted to this channel! Great job Ryan and crew!
As a finance nerd, this was fascinating. Thanks for the breakdown!
Ryan and crew, thank you for all the content this past year. You have REALLY stepped up your game and bring great credit upon the ship.
I have especially enjoyed bugging friends and family with battleship factoids and I’m working on getting my wife to go on a museum ship vacation with me…
Happy New Year!
This is an amazing insight in what really goes into running a small floating armoured city with 16inch guns.
My brother was in the navy at that time, but not on the _New Jersey_. Assuming he was typical, some of those baseball caps were bought by crew to bring home as souvenirs to friends or family when on leave.
I wish those fuel prices were still around 1987 prices I'll take that!! Ooh great video as always!!
I can remember riding in the Car as a Kid , Gas was .32 cents a Gallon back in the late 60s . It was a Hess Gas Station and was full service .
Government Fuel Contact... They Ain't paying retail for sure...
@@andrewkruchoski7757
No such thing as “retail “ gas prices
There is taxed and non taxed
@@markcantemail8018 A rate of 32 cents a gallon in 1969 is $2.60 nowadays, about what I paid at the last fill-up.
Airlines were (maybe still are) making their profits off of buying futures. They paid for fuel in advance on discount, then resold it later for a profit. So yes, there is a no retail price if you can afford to pay ahead in bulk @@FP194
Paydays…. Get in line towards the mess decks and the disbursement officer would pay us in cash.1984-1988. I was making $530 a month (gross)as an E-1.😮
The $13 billion cost of the USS Ford carrier over it's 50 year life span comes to $712,328.77 per day. And that's just the cost of the construction. Imagine the cost when you add wages, jet fuel, ordnance, overhauls, defensive weapons, food, new uranium, etc.
The reactors go 10 years before they need refueling
@@FP194 25 years, not 10
It’s 2.5m per day to operate the ford.
Read a study done by an active duty US Army officer in the ‘90s that showed a BB would cost 1/5 that of a Nimitz class CV annually and was capable of engaging 80% of the targets hit by aircraft in all conflicts the US had been engaged in since WW2. He advocated that the Iowa’s be retained as they could replace at least 1 carrier w/o compromising long range strike capability in any region where carrier groups are regularly rotated and would still cost less money overall.
...USN still said it was too expensive to operate BBs🤨.
By the 1990s the Navy was not interested battleships as a concept. They cited either false reasons (cost as you note) or reasons that could apply to any ship at all ("It's vulnerable to Torpedos").
Never mind the fact that the battleships made an excellent showing in most all the chances they got - the only semi-exception was NJ in Lebannon, but that was the first time in 13 years anyone had used a battleship, so of course the crew was going to be unpolished.
@@Contrajoe it wasnt the crews fault either, it was a gun powder issue.
@@leftyo9589 from research it was the ramming rod that was not going the slower speed when powder was being pushed in. There where reports it had been malfunctioning, should have been tagged out. Would make sense why the navy tried to cover it up. It was their fault in the command. You imagine what would happen in Mfg plant today if one blew up ( fertilizer plants) excluded
Periodic Dry dock and maintenance periods were very expensive, this could be averaged in to daily running costs.
Isn’t it costing the Texas like $10 million for their entire dry dock? That’s super expensive but still not million dollars a day territory
Texas isn't making repairs and upgrades to be battle ready, and doing so on a cheap, take your time rate @@pbyguy7059
@@JoshuaTootell good point
$10 million doesn’t go far at all for any serious dry dock work, comparatively simple commercial trading ships can spend $10 mill a month in dry dock, I would expect a fighting ship to be much more, a single weapons systems upgrade can consume $10 million +
Ryan, wages for enlisted are never capital expenses. It was that way in the 90's I'm sure it wasn't better in the 80's.
In a past video you had talked about the most protected and survivable section of the ship. Going back to when after WW2 when a number of these ships were used to see how much damage they'd take after a nuclear strike. What would be the internal damage, to rooms, passageways and operational areas after a nuclear strike? And how far would the damage progress into the ship its self? You had talked about the ship using florescent light tubes for lighting. Considering how fragile the tubes are plus the contents inside I wouldn't think that would be a good idea. I'm always amazed by the amount of ordinance and parts that are still stockpiled probably not seen for decades!
Would have to be the Mess - Cooks and cockroaches survive anything ;)
Post Video Typing : Ryan asks about our Thoughts . Back in the Last Century I read a Bunch of Naval History Magazines . The Letters discussed ways to keep the Iowas going . One Idea was to Lay one up at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean ? A figure thrown around back then was $ 300 million a year for one Iowa to be Active and Happy . So Perhaps Ryan is Pretty Close .
I always thought the "million dollar a day" was an urban legend. Congress spends far more than that per day on worthless endeavors! Best Regards, Jay.
While I don't have a better figure, I suspect the milllion per day was during war time when you have to replenish supplies under way, so you have to count the support ships plus the expense of running the ports it. docks at, warehouses of spare parts. But I do appreciate you bringing any figures to light as it helps nail things down even a bit.
Speaking of spare parts, are there spare parts for unique items like the 16 inch gun barrels and the props? Or would they need to be custom made on demand?
I think the props would be made if needed. The US Army had a stock of 16" gun barrels that they finally scrapped around 2010. I base that year on a government liquidation auction posting. These gun barrels were kept for the Iowa class battleships which themselves were technically on the Naval Vessel register until 2006.
Official US Navy sources had taken on a visible anti-battleship bias since the 1990s. The "million dollars a day figure" was one of their myths.
The book "Ships and aircraft of the US fleet" had an entry on the Iowa Class battleships had an entry that erroneously described them as "dreadnaughts" (Iowa class were Fast Battleships, a much later development) and said that the battleship fans "took up arms against the navy's decision to retire them" and that "Congress forced the navy to keep them" *eyeroll*. It should be noted that "Ships and aircraft of the US Fleet" has been required reading at Annapolis. Battleships had limited range but were much cheaper than aircraft Carriers. The main reason battleships mostly weren't around in Vietnam was more to do with government officials' investments in bomb manufacturing than it was to do with realities of war.
There was a stock of spare barrels at the Long Beach naval dockyard that you could see from the main road past the base on Sea Island.
They had a finite number of barrels which needed to be switched out about every 300 rounds fired. The thing is when a barrel was swapped out, all they needed to do was put in a new barrel lining and then the original barrel was ready to go again. It might be an urban myth, but the story behind the Iowa's being decommissioned after the Korean War was the lack of barrel liners, and that a large stock of them were found later, allowing the ships to be recommissioned in the 1980s
@@glenchapman3899 by the time they were recommissioned in the 80’s, the navy made some improvements to the powder that enabled the barrel liners to last way longer than 300 rounds.
@@tomnewham1269 That makes sense. Obviously better materials available, and being able to make the rifling more precise would help a lot as well.
Another great video from the battleship. Thanks
1987 wasn't a real good year to pick in trying to calculate the million dollar a day operation. New Jersey spent 9 months at LBNSY including 5 months in drydock #1 undergoing extensive hull repairs. I'm sure a lot of the soda sales included thirsty yardbirds since working on a ship in drydock or the drydock itself is hot during Summer.
In 1987, as a 3rd class petty officer my base pay was just over $850 (not exact but pretty close) a month. So many people fail to think about the cost of payroll in the military. It's by far the single most expensive part of the military budget. I don't know if it's still a thing today, but in the 80's every ship at sea was required to carry enough cash to pay every crew member, even if we decided to hold that check to the next port. My ship had a crew of about 300 and we carried over a million in cash when at sea. That estimates payroll at 24 million a year for my tiny ship. We had a 600 ship Navy when I was in. Basic dumb math says about one billion a year for Navy fleet pay, shore based personnel outnumber fleet by 2 to 1. That makes 3 billion for payroll. Now add the Army, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard. That's a lot of pay. As another point of interest, the ship shown alongside performing UNREP at 3:30 is the same class DDG I was stationed on. The Adams Class DDG's are very recognizable. And always, Thank you Ryan and all the people there that dedicate their lives to keeping that great ship afloat.
So they still use cash, or have they gone with prepaid cards or direct deposit?
@@kentfrohock402 I would assume they have gone to direct deposit. I've been out of the Navy since 1988.
It was direct deposit only my entire career starting in 1998.
@@JoshuaTootell I was hoping someone would reply about it. Did they have ATMs on board?
Do you think we could get one on obscure, unknown jobs that battleships had that maybe a lot of people didn’t know about? Basically just providing info that maybe a lot of people didn’t know.. I can’t think of anything of the top of my head but you also know far more about, Iowa than I do. Lol.
Keep up the great work, love watching these, sometimes I’ll rematch some of them 2-3 times in the course of a couple months.
Dirty Jobs has started up again. Just sayin'.
In 1986, I got my first job...fast food...starting at the minimum wage of $2.35/hour. $20/day would be consistent.
How much would that be today
"Which is two a day, which is less then I have to do..."
Just blame it on old equipment.
Vol 1 1993 Great Ships of North America is an old magazine that I have on the Table where the email machine sits . There is a Loose page 59 tucked in it from Naval History Edited by Bert Hubinger march /April 1995 . Keep in mind that this info is Dated because its from the Last Century , Ryan can Curate accurate info for us . The announcement is the Iowa Class is Finished . John Dalton Sec O Navy is is informing Congress That the Ships were " excess to Future Requirements " . It is 4 paragraphs " After an Investment of 1.7 Billion in the 1980s to reactivate them , 20 million to lay them up a few years ago , and $100,000 per years needed to Maintain them in Moth Balls . It goes on and on , later it says . According to the Naval Sea Systems Command , it would Cost $95 million to Reactivate them Today . This is 1995 And S . Morison is the Name after the News Blurb . The video is Just Starting I will Listen to Ryan now . and Type again Post Video .
A video following up on this subject would be interesting
I work for one of the major North American railroads. Our one rail yard goes through about $2m a day in diesel fuel alone. So it’s all relative.
So what does it cost per day to keep a locomotive rolling?
@@kentfrohock402 honestly, I’m not sure. It would depend on the locomotive and it’s condition. I’m a mechanic for them, and I know I can easily use More than $100K in parts alone on a single day. But overall, not sure.
I remember getting paid in 1987 aboard USS Rueben James as part of the AirDet - we got our check and moved down the line to CASH it. I guess it was about 1994 or 95 when we converted to direct deposit.
Operating costs... I remember at the squadron we got a given amount of funding for FUEL - and as the end of the fiscal year approached we would have to adjust the flight schedule to make sure we JUST finished using the amount. Some years we would have ONE flight per day if we were running low on funds (like right after Desert Storm) - OR years where we were running 14-16 flights a day to burn all that money - if we DIDN'T - we got less money the next year.
Happy Newyear to you Ryan and the crew!
even just tied to the pier them things costs a bit of money. crew food, electricity, maintenance parts, paint, supplies etc.
I'd be interested in a full video about sailor's pay in the context of what all their accomodations might have been worth in their day
In Feb 1987 I reported on board USS Kinkaid DD 965. Spent the next 17 months in NASSCO Shipyard San Diego.
You guys could probably file a freedom of information act requesting budgets/expenses for certain years
That was cash or check direct into sailors officers hands each payday _ i think- The allotments to banks for Wife/ family is probably not included in that. "Direct Deposit" did NOT work/exist in the 1980s for shipboard sailors. So - if that safe door was a gun breech - what is its caliber?
When you mentioned 2 lightbulbs per day I was wondering how that compared to your current predicament, and you did not disappoint.
I know during my USCG days that ever asset had a cost per day breakdown. The numbers would be used when charging companies like Exxon after the Valdez incident. I'd have to try and find the cost list again.
1 million dollars a day is not a problem for the Iowas to spend when the proverbial sh^t hits the fan and they're out at sea for combat ops. I'd be curious to know what it cost a day to operate the USS New Jersey during for a day during combat operations. I'm betting its much higher but very necessary.
It seems right to me because over the course of the lifetime of the ship, there are going to be some stupidly expensive times. I’m thinking mainly of refits. Add in the lifetime cost of the crew (wages are not total cost) through the gi bill and what not, and I’d be surprised if it was less than 1 million. Likely there are costs involved in supporting the infrastructure for the ship too.
Sure does for me since I was aboard the USS Coral sea CVA-43 just about every other day or more we had underway replenishment for deisel fuel and JP5
I don’t remember hearing about replacement parts for the engineering department. Spare parts and consumables for maintaining equipment. Like grease refrigerant and lube oil for auxiliary equipment. But no matter what, each ship has a certain amount of funds for operating costs but during war, those budgets get inflated. So In peacetime the budget is pretty standard.
Thank god for bank holidays when everything stops and the sailors row home for the night
I guess the recommissioning, upgrades, overhauls, recruitment and training of the crew, procurement of all the spares and ordinance ready to support the ship etc should also be amortised over the period the ship is in use and that leads to the $1m/day number.
But then we just get stuck into the discussion of how you should treat CAPEX v OPEX etc...
What is the cost of running one of the Nimitz carriers though? All these numbers are relative. Gotta shovel that cash to the military industrial complex.
Are you asking for just the carrier's cost or do you want to include the air wing's (without which a carrier has no purpose) cost?
$360m/year sounds high for operational costs but that number must include dry dock, shipyard maintenance, administration, support vessels even the cost of escorts. It's the type of number the Congressional Research Service people would come up with. I have said here before that reviving Essex carriers as ASW platforms would have been better, but the big mistake I think was to treat the battleship as an independent naval group with its own admiral rather than as a monitor brought out for specific operational missions.
I’m just here for the Evinrude outboard.
RIP Evinrude 😞
This was below an average year that you chose. A non years year without combat would have been better. Also the million figure probably includes maintenance costs spread out.
Some of that expense is a navy overhead, that regardless of the ship concerned, as it is an expense anyway. Anything that is a navy expense for sailors/crew, IS NOT a ship operational cost. It is a maintenance cost - regardless of what/where the crew serve. Operating a battleship (or any ship) is that which is outside of the expense of maintaining a crew.
New Jersey was my best duty station of my 6 years in navy lost Tract of guys in my division 1st deck dept so hope I can get info about guys in my deck dept 1st division that have not seen since 1986
Ryan looking handsome with the full beard.
I wonder how many tons copper is onboard that ship in just the miles of wiring.
Worth every penny.
I hope to be back at my ship on may 2 around 2:30 pm my bus gets to new Jersey at 1:45 pm unless my bus late
Murica baby! Let's go!
I'd be very interested to see an org chart for the museum and memorial operation as it is today.
How does THAT run?
Great Video! What about the cost of the drydocks/refits they should do every 10 years? How much do you think they cost divided by 3650?
I bet you're right thought. It may have equated to $1,000,000 a day at war, launching all of her Tomahawks.
That's a really tricky question. For aircraft, just calculating fly away costs is tough.
I guess for ship operating costs would also have to include the price of servicing equipment. And if sailors are like soldiers, the real cost per enlisted personel isn't payroll or kit. It's training, health care, and human resource management.
To understand how the cost of operation is calculated we have to understand what is included. You have the direct costs of running the ship - payroll and consumables (e.g. fuel, food). Then you have to consider maintenance costs such as yard time, which is tracked pretty well for each class of ship and gets higher as ships age. Then there are ancillary costs such as training which can be relatively cheap for systems that are common across the fleet (e.g. CIWS) and involve few personnel, or very high for ship-specific or class-specific systems (e.g. running the steam plant). Then there are facility costs, and similar to training you have port facilities in common with the fleet, but items like the Mk.7 16" guns are unique, so all the costs of the ammunition storage and handling is charged across only 4 ships. It all adds up. Simply put, in the late 80's the Iowas were the most expensive ships in the fleet and that put them at the top of the list for decommissioning and disposal. The same type of accounting lead to the very early retirement and scrapping of the USN's nuclear cruisers in the 90's.
I think part of the issue is that might be over the lifetime of duty? Some years are cheaper and others are way more expensive. Just think when it goes to dry dock or any upgrades. I generally use the 10% of purchase price per year in costs/expenses. That includes fuel, crew salaries, marina fees, updates, food, supplies etc. Some years are way less and others are way more, but on average it works out to 8-10% ish. So in looking at the numbers the new costs in 1940 was about $100,000,000USD, so today that works out to $2.13B USD or in 1987 $811M. So in 1987 using the 10% say $80M/year or $219K/day? That seems more inline than the $1M/day.
LOL, you are forgetting about overhead! That ship would be charged for costs associated with the Pentagon, the Fleet Headquarters, the port the ship is assigned to, Crane Naval Weapons Station for service and storage of the things that go boom, the Medical Center the crew is assigned to, and lord only knows what else I am forgetting about.
10,000 dollars a day does get a real number for one to use, to realize what it takes to run one of these museum ships.
I'm betting that 1M/day figure includes all maintenance, dry dock, etc. And I'm surprised that it cost 10K/day as a museum. Owie!
One thing you might add. Before 1973 it probably cost even less per day to run, even considering 1940s money vs 1980s money.
In 1973 the price of oil sky rocketed because of OPEC. And Bunker C, which was penny's per barrel went up to over $20 per barrel. Back before that happened they burned strictly bunker type oil. If oil prices hadn't gone to the moon they might still be running the Iowas.
Sounds like it should be more than a million dollars a day to me. You were trying your best guess at an average year on the ship's expenses. All the shipyard labor has to be added in. Any shore side support from admin to warehouse spare parts. The support ships (oilers or supply) that are required to keep the ship at sea should have a share of their expense credit to the battleship otherwise the ship cannot stay on mission. Training costs for the crew both at sea and on land. A boiler operator may require less training than an radar electronic tech in continuing training. It all cost money.
I love in the video the destroyer is rising and falling with the swells but the battleship is hardly or not moving.
Advantages of more mass.
_Real_ Sailors ride tin cans...
@@seafodder6129 BBs (then later CVs) get the glory while the Fleet still relies on the workhorse pack mule backs of the DDs
War and Remeberence? okay this is worth an episode.
Worth every penny . . .
114 root canals in a group of men which is fairly young .... that is a lot !
Navy probably did extraction instead of cavity filling. Maybe it all that sugar and not brushing.?
I wonder was $.90 for diesel the price the navy would have spent, as you would be paying wholesale rates and likely untaxed as it was for a military vessel.
Probably in all fairness to Ryan. I doubt he has access to the figures that the Government and or MoD pays for fuel. All he can go in is what the cost of fuel was at that time for you and I. I would imagine the Government / MoD pays a fraction of that cost.
$1 million per day to run 1 Iowa in the 1940s is not cheap but a fast battleship is not cheap as I will use Hood for comparison
According to UK Parliament records, in 1919 it was estimated that the running cost of the Hood was £539,000 and if you use the estimate of Hood's upkeep prior to being sunk after adjusting the estimate over each year of the 20-year period to account for inflation brings the total to £9,369,763.30 which gives a daily estimated running cost of between £9,000-£14,000 a day
this means the Royal Navy had spent an estimated £15,394,763.30
For context the last RN battleship HMS Vanguard cost £11,530,503 to build heck if the £4.500,000 hood refit was adjusted for 1942 inflation, that is £6.750,000 which brings the total spent to £22,144,763 and 30p
If someone wants to figure this out in US$ go ahead
Is there a statistic of how many total miles each of the Iowa's made in their lives?
7:35 I'm curious, is the rate for fuel what the Navy would pay or is that street value? I think the DoD pays less than what you'd see on a street sign. Maybe as little as 50%.
We burned through that much on the Stein FF1065 back in the70s
I have to look at the life expectancy of the ship in active service. Is it 50 years or is it so many thousands of tens of thousands of miles on the engines. what periodic maintenance has to happen for different equipment and systems. Replacement of old systems with new. what work can be done on the ship for pumps and motors from stock on hand. Sure, you can look at the costs from the year, but the full pricing includes those years when drydock activities happen.
I think if you average in repairs and upgrades over her life span then you will get to that million dollar figure rather easily.
I would need to see the math on that. Keep in mind they were retired with a lot of life left so *potential* lifespan would have been pretty cheap. Anything is expensive if you massively overhaul and then don't use it very long.
It's actually easier to reach it by simply factoring in all the extra supply chains you need for the ships, as these burdened costs wouldn't exist if the ships didn't. This is likely where they aimed to get the biggest number possible to free up budgetting for whatever ambitions they had besides battleships.
1974, total pay was $5200, which included haz duty pay. E5 over 6. Averages out to $14/day or .59¢/hour. Slave wages.
that was very interesting! I would have thought payroll and fuel would be a higher number. of course, if you figure in majof shipyard periods for standard maintenance, you can kill any ship, financially. just imagine the cost of refueling / rebuilding a Nimitz class carrier at the 25year mark, something like 2bn or so.
Build and rebuild costs are part of the overall clst and need to be considered.
If in the 18. C a ship cost on average 30.000 pounds to build, lasts 12 years, the armament cost 30.000 lasting 25 years (so good for two life cycles) that ship already has 45.000 pounds per 12 years, 3.750 per year. That is before stores, pay and upkeep.
With modern battleships, I dare not even guess what they cost
sailors get paid no matter where they are so the may as well be on a ship. so far as expenses, again i point out that this is the navy....they have boats, ships subs and all other crafts. if you want to hit a traget in the ocean, you need to practice......so that covers ordnance. sailors gotta eat no matter where they are so again...that gets paid even if they're docked up. the only real cost above and beyond that wouldn't normally be covered would be fuel. again, its the DAMN NAVY and should be able to move their ships around.
Ryan the big US inflation was in the 70s and early 80s. Compare payroll in 1968 and 87.
Would like to know the break down cost per day to run her as a museum. Would of never guessed it cost as much as it does. Thanks
What about the support and escort ships that usually accompany a BB?
I plan on buying about $250.00 worth of stuff at gift shop when at my ship this may 2-3?
When did they change the ship over from bunker fuel to diesel fuel?
I suspect that figure also includes cost of construction and retrofitting amortized over the lifetime of the ship.
I do wonder can you change out the lights for LED'S would this be Cheaper than changing all those light bulbs
I was thinking that too. Why not use LED's
They got LED that fit right in now, still would be replacing the old florescent tubes
Didn't Ryan already did a video on that? If I remember correctly the tour route is in process or had already been converted to LED?
Question for Ryan: are the fluorescent and other lighting being replaced with LED alternatives, or is this frowned upon?
Would seem like it could save Ryan a lot of maintenance work, while cutting down on the operating cost :)
I believe he made a video about the topic. Might be able to find it.
Ryan's mentioned this in a previous video, nearly all the flourescent fittings on the tour route have been converted over to plug in replacement LED tubes (you remove the ballast and wire the tube sockets directly to the incoming supply). it does represent a significant maintenance time and energy cost saving.
@@tech4pros1 Thanks, that's good to know. Those LED replacements for the old fluorescent tubes are indeed pretty awesome. Same light for much less power, years of service even running 24/7 and no fragile tubes to break.
Got a question. What if the thick armor on ships like the Iowas was replaced by spaced Chobham armor. Would they be lighter and still as protected? Things that make you say hmmmm....
But Chobham is blocky and would be only found on the superstructure and turrets. The hull is curved unless it's for the compartment walls especially the ordnance and fuel storage.
Any hit will cause the main armour deck to blow the entire superstructure off. Not unreasonable because long range gunnery tends to hit the maindeck, not the belt.
So far I understand, Chobham mostly helps to disturb the penetrator in its flightpath, thereby reducing its penetration capability. You are talking about 20 to 30 mm solid shot rods. With scale laws, I wouldn't be surprised that for a 406 mm AP shell, a similar mechanism would be very unrealistic.
Ryan. I wonder how much fuel is consumed at various ports in the world?do they hook to shore power or run the boilers?
How does The Big J take on fuel? With a fuel capacity like that, is there a section of propulsion that manages it? Where is the fuel port? Is there a fuel gauge? A backup fuel gauge? Maybe a random hatch to stick a rope down to check fuel levels? Does the triple bottom hold fuel?
Trying to remember,,🤔🤔🤔🤔. The fuel transfer hose was either 4" or 6". There were always two used at once, fore and aft. We BTs handled the refueling and distribution of the fuel into the tanks. The Deck Apes took care of the hook up and release of the fuel hoses. The fuel tanks have gauges, but are also "sounded" with a weighted tape. BT USS New Jersey "85-87.
Would be a great video
A million dollars a day seems high for an annual average, especially considering 1980s costs. It wouldn't surprise me if the ship cost a million dollars a day to operate at sea.
Shouldn’t drydock, maintenance and other like factors be averaged in, as well?
But what is the cost of running a battleship specifically vs any other modern ship since you would have to pay and take care of the sailors wherever they served.
What was the force projection of an Iowa worth? Hard to say, but I'd submit that it was worth far more than a megabuck per day.
What does the government accounting office for any given year in the 1980s state as the yearly operating cost?
I’m wondering if that fuel cost was pump price or if there was a special lower rate for the military (bulk rate, no tax, lower grade) etc
No tax and bunker diesel is as low a grade as it gets
It has to be heated to get it to flow
@@FP194 The Iowa class, like all contemporary US Navy ships, didn’t run on bunker fuel. They ran on F-76 fuel, which is thicker than diesel, but not nearly as thick as bunker fuel. Two reasons: 1: the Navy wants to standardize fuel across all ship classes so that they can have one supply chain for fuel and don’t have to worry about operating multiple types of oilers. Ships with gas turbine engines cannot run on bunker fuel, and by the 80’s, most non-nuclear ships in the navy had gas turbines instead of traditional boilers. 2: bunker fuel is way too thick to pump between ships during an UNREP. Imagine trying to pump bunker fuel between ships when they’re in the North Atlantic during winter and it’s below freezing out.
One caveat on the fuel, the navy doesn’t pay taxes on its fuel. So cut at least 1/3rd off the fuel cost estimate.
Was Bowsweep ever tried out on New Jersey?
What would the cost for 1990-1991 have been, against 1987?
Honestly, given what else the US government spends it's money on these days that seems cheap, and a good cause of course.
Oh that’s so hard they are all SOO good. But probably the tinder swindler. Or summer wells. Or Dylan rounds. Any of those ongoing one. Oh Debbie colliers still throws me for a loop.
Where do I apply I would love to work on that museum it would be a check on my bucket list notice I'm not inquiring about the pay scale please respond
www.battleshipnewjersey.org/jobs/
salary numbers area surprise me.......i just think they would take up more of the total