Ep. 304 | Barrel Burnout - Does it Exist?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Barrel burnout is often a big consideration for folks when selecting a cartridge. But is it as big a deal as it’s made out to be? Mark Boardman and Ryan Muckenhirn discuss barrel burnout, who should it matter to, how it occurs, and what you can do if it happens.
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I didn't think I was going to like this episode, but it turned out to be very enjoyable! In fact, it was kinda therapeutic and relaxing to listen to. Only you guys could take a topic such as "Barrel Burnout", and make it an enjoyable listening experience, lol.
As always, great food for thought guys!! As a 6th generation engineer, I love data. Ergo, I keep an accurate record of all shots through every barrel I own. However, I have NOT kept an accurate record of cleaning said barrels. Now I will. Given the typical velocities I shoot, and the limited number of shots per year, I do not expect to ever "burn out" a hunting barrel. That being said, my M1 Garand, AR15, and K31 which I use for competitions may or may not get shot enough in my lifetime to burn out...only time will tell. Regardless, fouling effects would be easier to mitigate with a documented and strictly adhered to cleaning regiment. Thanks for that!
These episodes just keep getting better and better! Thank you Ryan & Mark 🥰
There are so many variables.....I agree with everything you said. Overheating a barrel is the death....period
If you want to understand your rifle… get a bore scope.
What an eye opener!
It is a wonderful aid for bore cleaning and… if you are prone to running hot loads, you can observe the resultant accelerated fire cracking and erosion of the throat as it develops in real time. The borescope can help you decide for yourself to avoid running over pressure loads… they can be very nasty and chew up your bore faster than you think.
Teslong borescopes are NOT expensive.
Cheers!
One caveat - five or more round groups are still a statistically better indicator but i agree - shoot the group the way you would shot the rifle. Hunting? shoot 5 cold bore shots as your group. for competition plinking etc. groups should be a representative of the use
28 Nosler I think is a good example. Was looking at a bore scope on a 28 Nosler after 100 rounds already showing signs of damage. What got me looking at this was while at the range with my .338 Lapua, the guy next to us had a 28 Nosler and he was very frustrated with the loss in accuracy very quickly.
Love the sign in the back…9x25 Dillon was my favorite after my 10mm Delta.
I had a LeeEnfield 303, that was used for years with cordite powder, it had the recoil of a 22, near smooth bore.
Was it accurate?
Not really!@@anonymousf454
I had watched the Hornady podcast on this concept and one solution was to buy a longer barrel and simply cut of and re-barrel, giving up speed.
But it might be better to just replace the barrel.
you talk of barrel set back , would it still be worth the cost of doing a setback if there is a fair amount of fire cracking several inches ahead of the new cut chamber ?
Those old XLC's are great barrel break-in bullets.
I don't know about barrel burnout until I started keyholeing. In the days before the internet.
On your black powder, moisten your patch with dawn/water solution. Shoot all day without fowling out
I have built thousands of barrels in another life. Hunting and many many AR barrels.
It all depends on context, 1.5 moa hunting rifle or .5 moa f class rifle.
.5 moa f class rifle will have you coming in last places... try 00s, and .1's
Oh it exists. My 7mm rum has 50 shots on it and you can see alot of land erosion vs when I first got it. It's still a shooter though
Why don’t you clean that barrel on the table till it is no blue patch passed and see how it shoots then scope it then cut it. I’m curious about the always cleaning degrades the accuracy topic. Can’t remember if there was a podcast on this already.
James Eagleman at Barbour Creek burns out more 6.5 Creedmoor Barrels than anyone else that I know of.
They shoot factory 140 ELD Match ammo. He cleans the barrels every 80 to 200 rounds between classes and the barrels come off at 4,400 rounds because it becomes too difficult to hit a GOLF BALL AT 1,000 YARDS!
Don't believe internet trash about it being a 2,000 round cartridge.
That guy forgot more about long range shooting than 99% will ever know. Watch his videos, you'll see what I mean.
Caused a lot of dirt naps over in the sandbox, if ya know what I mean.
24:00
Why?
Why Zer0 cleaning
And why allow it to be a proverbial sewer pipe?
#10MinuteTalk for 6.5-300 Weatherby! 🙋🏻♂️ And does a higher twist rate for a given caliber burn out more quickly?
cleaning process podcast?
There’s nothing wrong with even a 10 round group, just wait between each shot. For hunting anyway, if your doing prs then you have entirely different requirements.
So instead of a 10 round group with all that time wasted waiting for cooling, what about 3 three shot groups with sufficient cooling between groups. You get three looks at cold bore shots and how well the follow up shot will group and compare the three groups to see what kind consistency you have.
If you sat on a prairie dog town in 1990 with a 22/250 and a 5 gallon bucket of ammunition, you could burn up a barrel. I know 😂
Yep. Toasted a few that way.
Good episode guys but I have to say: TEN MINUTE CARTRIDGE TALKS. 😅
Think this episode had a good 19 listens before it gets redundant.
Does it exist? Ask an F-Class or BR shooter ☠️☠️☠️
It would be interesting to clean that barrel down to metal then put in a bore scope to see exactly how that barrel looks after 6,600 rounds!
Assuming no neglect, after cleaning they should appear exactly the same as if new. Bullets cannot damage Gun Steel in ANY way. So says Physics!
@KandaJE you do realise that heat and friction can erode steel?
@@DakotaDinwoodie Not from firing bullets!
More nonsensical 6th grade dropout science. What friction can lead and brass do to Gun Metal Steel? It can't even scratch it! Obviously you FAILED 6th grade!
Please show us just HOW hot you could possibly get that gun barrel using nitrocellulose and friction! (AKA Gun Cotton, that powder that is actually used in cartridges)
Can you REALLY get it to 2500 degrees? Or even close? You might get it to glow in infrared a little! a couple 100 degrees but not enough to make it soft enough to do any kind of damage! Assuming you were using some sort of chain gun and you actually had a couple hundred thousands of rounds of ammo to experiment with...
Yet again, complete unscientific nonsense!
If you have any ACTUAL scientific evidence AT ALL I'm listening! Otherwise you really should stop trying to sell FEAR and Stupidity to feed your GREED!
The heat from the powder burning at several thousand degrees each shot damages the barrel a lot more than any bullets and friction from them.
I don’t understand how a world class competition shooter cleans their rifles perfect after every use then amateur shooters say cleaning a rifle destroys it and can never shoot good again. I’ve never had an issue with clean bores.
It's because of repeatability. If you always have a clean bore it will always group the same as long as the ammo is consistent. When a bore gets dirty it will shift zero slightly. They also speed up when they build some copper up getting a higher velocity. So to keep things consistent comp people clean a lot more. It doesn't matter if you wanna keep it cleaned or copper fouled nothing wrong with either. For %99 of people.
If I was shooting bench rest I would be cleaning heavily. Some are looking for copper equilibrium.
I rarely clean centerfire bored anymore.....and only clean my rimfires after accuracy falls off........I also don't do barrel break in when I buy new rifles.....and don't really let barrels cool down between groups on some of my rifles......
If you ask me, most people just go off of hearsay, and then it becomes fact to them. But they don't shoot or do enough testing or research to prove otherwise. And when they do look it up, they have a bias to want to be right, so they actually only look for information to back their side. For the average shooter or hunter who doesn't shoot tons of rounds like an F Class or PRS competitor or something, I don't think most people will see much of a difference with cleaning or not. Personally, I prefer to listen to the guys who have much more experience, testing, and rounds under their belt.
Rifle bores that are near the end of serviceable life look very different than young, healthy bores. Get a rifle borescope folks!
The lifecycle wear of your rifle bore will cease to be a dark mystery and what bore cleaning products and procedures work efficiently becomes easy to decipher.
Most hunting game missed is the hunter not the accuracy of the barrel! Change my mind! Great video guys! I have seen barrels in the last 60+ years of hunting reloading and collecting rifles that the barrel looked horrible inside but shot less then MOA so when should the hunter replace the barrel?
Get a teslong borescope my friend!… your question as to when you should replace your barrel will cease to be a mystery. You can observe the life cycle changes in your bore directly, in real time as it changes with age… what you observe will answer your questions.
@@trevorkolmatycki4042yes. And this is literally called science.
Good discussion, I agree it does happen but only a consideration for those that are Long Range shooters that are really burning through ammo at the range. I recall when I the Army the M4 I was issued I would guess had a minimum of 30,000 rounds through it.... I could still put the 300 meter silo down. The Remington 700 .308 (7.62) I'd bet they had 4,000-6,000 rounds through them.... still qualifying at 1000 meters. The .50 Cal barrels I have melted though lol.... but got about 2000 rounds through it with quick controlled bursts (new belts every 100-200 rounds) before she went tits up lol and it even kept the headspace and timing between barrel swaps... so guess what I'm saying is for the average 400 yard or closer hunter/rifleman barrel burnout shouldn't even be on the radar
The throat burns out the quickest and will eventually cause inconsistencies when the bullet meets the rifling causing your groups to open up.
First and right on time as im looking at 22-250s
Your right, something like a 22-250 or a 220 swift are severe overbore and prone to stripping the rifling out of the bore. It all depends on your application. Are you hunting with it where 1.5 moa is acceptable or are you an f class shooter where after it opens up to half moa it's done?
I have a 6.5-300 Weatherby that will probably take 25+ years at 40 rounds a year to burnout. I got it dialed and use it just for hunting. If I want to plink targets I have lower Performance cartridges for that.
Here is a podcast idea. Best velocities on impact. I think fast bullets shot at game at close distances is less effective than slower bullets.
I am surprised no one talks about old milsurps when talking about barrel burn out. A trick for milsurps to judge how much a barrel may be burnt out is to stick a round down the end of the barrel and see how much it swallows the bullet.
3 shot group for hunting rifles and 5 shot group for target rifles.
Rule of thumb, you only get one shot when hunting, maybe two and at most 3.
Target rifles, minimum shot group measured is 5 shots.
Build accordingly and shoot accordingly.
how many rounds through a .308 win???? Im debating whther I should change mine out. Its at around 2k rounds.
Great job guys , but here's the curveball , i use cfe223 powder , so no copper fouling , but i'm thinking more barrel wear ? Am i right ?
As mentioned here, barrel wear is mainly at the throat. This powder has a de-coppering additive that should have no effect on the throat.
Good stuff!
So nice to see a podcast put on by company that doesn't just become an extended ad for that company's products.
That's a little harsh. The Hornady podcast, for example, provides a lot of technical info that I have not been able to find from other podcasts. Then again, I am an engineer who studied mechanical engineering and aeronautics, so I appreciate the geek speak. When I watch other sites that have experts, like people from barrel manufacturers, it is often more difficult to get useful info since the questions are not as specific. They tend to spend more time on the basics than the details I find interesting.
@@jfess1911
Harsh???
It was a compliment to vortex. I too have watched and enjoyed the Hornady podcasts.
@@ccfdmd The harsh part is you seem to imply that it is unusual to find a podcast that is not "an extended ad for that company's products".
There seem to be a lot that don't fall into that category is my point.
DO ANOTHER PREPER/SURVIVAL VIDEO!!
your past couple videos on the topic have been awesome, hilarious, and on point 😊
Shooting Blaser R8, barrel change is a breeze 👍🏻
Great episode. Thank you.
I got about a 1000 rounds out of my 28 nosler
I would say that most people wouldnt notice a barrel being worn out, since most people cant seem to shoot better than a 3 MOA group.
That said, most of your very mainstream cartridges like 308 and 30-06 tend to be extremely good at preserving barrel life. Unless you are an extremely active firearms enthusiast, you likely won't burn out those barrels.
That said, I am about to launch a video of a 6.5 carcano rifle with a barrel so far gone, I literally drop a bullet into the muzzle and it falls out of the receiver. No, it has not been rechambered.
I have a Romanian surplus ak and I've shot it a fair bit and it seemed to do fine, but one day while cleaning it I looked through the bore and saw that the Romanian army shot the hell out of this gun before selling it off because the rifling is really worn out and I couldn't help but laugh.
Well, Mark, Jim, Ryan, I guess it's time to make a video about
"The Rifle Man's Rifle" (winchester model 70)
Mostly, I am interested in:
model 70 extreme weather ss
Come on, guess, I have been asking this forever!
And yes, Ryan, please compare it to our favorite tikka t3x stainless
Thanks
Gregory from Alberta
Belief before watching the video, only about 1% of shooters will ever burn out a barrel and those are typically going to be the competition shooters who go through 1500+ rounds a month (and expect a 5 shot ragged hole). Hunters will likely never burn out a barrel (who typically expect 2 shots to be minute of deer), they fire about 5 rounds a year. Now, to watch the show and see if I still believe that at the end.
Another great Video 💯 ' Thanks 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Unless you're a Professional Hunter where volume is an issue, barrel life should NEVER be a consideration on a big game hunting rifle. But more importantly, the rifle Weight needs to match the cartridge. I WONT build someone an 8lb 300 Magnum. Not gonna happen. Why? Because they can't shoot it. That 300 magnum is a 10 to 12lb gun with a muzzle brake. THEN it's shootable at long range without a flinch.
The highest performance cartridge that YOU can shoot well is the answer.
When consulting clients on rifle builds, I ALWAYS discuss recoil. "OH recoil doesn't bother me." B.S.
Everyone is recoil sensitive, it's to what degree.
Now if it's a Prairie Dog gun, yes Barrel life is a consideration.
Competition guys don't burn out barrels. They ALMOST burn out barrels. You ask Ian. They take barrels off because they either start leaking shots vertically, or they take too long to clean as the round count goes up, or both.
Great job Ryan, as always.
A 204-250 Ackley improved I have will only go 300-600 rounds, if coyote hunting it will last 10-15 years or more.
On ground squirrels, it would be shot out in an afternoon. It would be fun thou.
On the other side, a friend has a .222 Remington with well over 40,000 rounds on it, a bore scope showed the first three inches of rifling are gone, yet it still is a half inch shooter!? You tell me how that happens?
Unless you have a browning a-bolt (same with x-bolt?). Even gunsmiths say the a-bolt barrels can't be removed without destroying the receiver.
SAKO S20 / 30.06 / SAKO powerhead-Blade ..... barel life expectation ?
Comment on something said at 40:10 I have an AR with a $50 300 blackout barrel holding just under MOA!!! Thats why I’m okay being a budget shooter, although not by choice.
My 6.5/284 is good for about 500 possible hits in the 10 inch X-Ring of 1000 yard NRA Target. But after 500 rounds the barrel throat is too washed out to deliver the consistent bullet flight needed to hold inside the X-Ring.
I have yet to remove all copper from my 35 year old BAR 30-06. I don't know if I am making things better or worse for accuracy. Never seems to improve.
Just to pick a number, a dollar a round, 2k rounds is 2k. A new barrel is typically around 500. Depends on many variables. You might say $750 with gun smith labor cost. The ammo cost way more than the barrel and most good quality ammo is closer to 1.50 a round and up. Clearly you will spend way more on ammo than barrels but that is something I consider. If someone says it cost 2 dollars a round, I add 50 cents for a new barrel.
One big issue is how long the wait for a new barrel is, if it's a custom design. Seems like everyone is making custom rifles these days and this has backed up the manufactures for months. plan ahead...
What is the life of machine gun barrels ? People think stainless bbls wear out quicker . I dont think so stainless steel work hardens .
An excellent, thought-provoking discussion that brings to mind why it's necessary to change engine oil. Both combustion engines and rifle barrels experience carbon buildup. But unlike car engines, rifle barrels and bullets have nothing to create an oil-lubricating barrier between the two. And anything to create a protective rust barrier inside a barrel after cleaning is gone after the first shot. Common sense would seem to dictate that waiting until accuracy drops off before cleaning a barrel is a great way to shorten its life and does far worse damage than waiting too long before changing engine oil. Competition shooters don't have a problem with this because they view rifle barrels much like dragster owners view engines. Both see replacement as a necessary evil that goes with being in game. However, the everyday car or rifle owner should take a much different approach if max life is the end goal by removing carbon long before the engine starts burning oil and the groups start opening up.
It would be interesting to see if simply cleaning that barrel completely could make it serviceable again. Then, if not, how much “setback” was necessary maybe in 1/4” increments to make it a shooter again.
I hope y’all do a 6.5-300wby one of these days. I’ve been a big fan of #10miutetalks since it started and heard brief mention of the 6.5-300 but not much more then that!
Heat treats are critical for longer strings. Cryogenic heat treatment certainly helps. Production manufacturers gonna cheap out on everything.
You guys are great
Great video
My 250 savage 1920 bolt action has 2 lifetime hunters in her past and there is no doubt she will outlast Mr
E
My brother had a 264 win mag long term and it eventually washed out the throat and the accuracy tailed WAY off. Thats the only rifle l have ever seen do it to a noticeable degree.
do the cutaway and clean the off fall part of the barrel .clean it with the sweets 7.62 you used to use😄😄😄😄
Great podcast guys i would love to see Ryan cut the Tikka barrel in half
What is Ryan's "day job"? My 243 throat eroded ~1/10" in 1,000 rounds.
A rifle barrell is a perishable item just like car tires. All depends how fast and miles driven.
Instead of cutting new barrel and the old one. What about cut that one in half and then clean one of the two halves?
In South Africa, the Barrel is seen as the Firearm, so re-barreling a rifle is an licencing mess
Does cryoing your barrel extend its life
Well done! good stuff ! Thank you :)
Talk about these ultra fast twist rate barrels and their affect on barrel burnout.
vortex nation as usual was most interesting ..
Are you cutting the barrel with waterjet to get it cleanly split?
Awesome time well spent
Do you guys have any idea at what point does a cartridge become overboard i.e 22-250, 220 swift? VS something like a 222 rem
When the powder charge out weighs the bullet, you are overbore for sure.
17 Remington and 220 Swift come to mind. 22 Creedmoor is, but the .243 Winchester with a 55 grain bullet is over bore and doesn’t have a heavier powder charge them bullet. So…………..
🤘🏻
Would the same be true for handgun barrels?
Kind of, the primary difference being pistols are using far less powder and have very little or no bottleneck so while it’s technically happening your very unlikely to ever see it even with heavy competition use. The exception of course is pistol caliber machine guns, they have a tendency to get a bit hot on occasion and heat is ultimately what does the damage.
I got about 2500 rds thru a 300 win mag. before throat erosion and accuracy loss. I only ran 3 shot groups then allow cooling. I dilligently ran hoppes #9 thru it. about every 10 rounds. bronze brush with patch rolled around it.