Great effort Walt. I'm very glad you tried this. I think the issue here is you are feeding a signal into a near dead short. The bottom of the tower is grounded through the rebar in the concrete. I know it's not possible, but if you were to connect that feed wire up about 1/3 of the way on the tower, you'd have different results. Think of a yagi and how a gamma match feeds the driven element. The middle of the element is at ground potential, so the gamma is connected at a point away from ground (center) where there is some impedance that will accept power from the line. Also, the 9:1 may have been working against you. The feed impedance is perhaps 1 ohm where your connection was made and we're dividing that by 9 so the coax probably only sees 1/9th ohm impedance. 20 watts in may render 0.001 watts out. The best part of this experiment is that an antenna may hear exceedingly well, but that does not mean it will radiate equally well. Keep up the super work bro. 73 OM
@@joewoodchuck3824 You are correct, I can not tell because I was not there and did not build it. I should have said, "The bottom of the tower MAY be grounded at RF". Clearly it was an assumption on my part. Even If there is no rebar or other metal structure within the concrete footings, it is likely that there is an impedance path at RF frequencies at the footings which is helping to bring the bottom of the tower closer to electrical ground instead of isolated from it. Most freestanding towers used for AM broadcast were predominantly shunt fed for this exact same reason. Only those that are sitting on a porcelain insulator are series fed. Hope that answers your question. 73
Even it is was actually say 20 watts into the structure, my mind goes to how much of it there is mass wise and the steel resistance. I appreciate that AM stations do put KW in structures, but am I right in thinking that signal would ...I am tempted to say absorbed into the mass? Like feeding 20w into a copper wire vs Steel bar. Thanks Tim VK8LLA
@@mowtown75 Hi Tim, great question! From what I've seen and learned on the job, the skin effect definitely plays a part in how well a conductor radiates, but only when the frequency is very high and not at MW. The "mass" of the tower doesn't play a role here. The tower is just a conduit surface that the RF can ride on to generate the H and E fields. The thing is, the resistance that I think you're asking about is all in the skin effect on the surface of the tower. At MW frequencies, it really doesn't matter like it does at UHF and up. At UHF and higher frequencies, the surface must be very smooth and greatly benefits from a silver electroplating. It's all about the radiation resistance of the structure. Generally, the higher the "radiation resistance" (not to be confused with DC resistance) the better. In this case, the "Rr" is so low that the material of the structure and/or the surface condition or coating is such a small percentage of the total, it can be omitted. All MW towers that I've worked on are painted and most have serious surface corrosion under the paint, so the iron in the steel really doesn't play a part in affecting the RF. IMO, the significant reason why this particular tower would not accept power was due to both the location of the feedpoint, and the fact that there was no proper groundplane below the tower for the RF to push against. If Walt were able to connect a 3 wire skirt somewhere about halfway up the tower, then it could be fed as a "folded monopole" on perhaps 160M and 80M, and have a much better chance of accepting power due to a higher Rr (provided of course that there was a proper groundscreen below) At the higher frequencies, the tower would act like a vertical Beverage. There would be two main lobes from each end. One would feed RF directly into the ground while the other would place the main radiation lobe straight up and be a "cloud burner" because it's much too long for SW. There would be some minor lobes at very high angles, and yes it would make some contacts, but the majority of the power would go up to the heavens. Tim, back in the really old broadcasting books (1920's) I recall hearing of a weekly wipedown of the SW antenna wire by a newly hired technician. The purpose was to remove oxidization on the exposed wire which was usually made of phosphor -bronze. I'm not sure how successful this weekly chore actually was, or if it was more of a probation ritual for the tech to "pay his dues". At SW, I don't see any electrical benefit. Great discussion. Keep thinking about antennas! It's a wonderful exploration. PS. If you haven't seen it, watch "Standing up for standing waves" (just paste that into the search at the top of YT). The video is a rebroadcast and is presented on the KN4AQ channel. It is one of the best demonstrations on traveling wave theory and worth it's weight in gold. 73 OM, de Hollywood 🎙
When I was getting my technician license a long time ago, the Elmer loaded up a metal stool that was in the classroom and was able to make a contact on 20 m. Pretty dang cool!
Thanks for testing it out Walt I can't be the only one who sees things like this and has the thought! This was a great attempt and like you said there's gotta be an adjustment to make to get out if you're receiving that well. 73
@@1crazynordlander haha.. Those towers are great.. We did a old WInd Mill tower a few winters ago.. It worked great.. i worked Steve in SC ko4gms on 1 watt.. Probably just a lucky day, LOL..
I'm not an amateur, just a shortwave listener, and this looks really tempting to try. If nothing else, a bow and arrow to take a long wire up there would be neat to try. Might have write off the wire if I could not get it down though, I'm not climbing up there to get it back, ha ha.
Nice to see experimentation 🙏 One trick you can use that seems a tad counterintuitive, is, provided you can tune to a very high impedance you build a very high Inductance Pancake Coil and drive the coil directly from your active output (centre conductor of coax & directly connect the coax shield (reference ) to the metal tower. Tuning into a High L inductor gives a high current kick back on the coax shield and that can be directed onto the tower. You may also use a coaxial choke between the radio and the tuner. You will be surprised how it works. (Just to clarify) (Driving into the coil directly , meaning only into a coil that connects to nothing but is lifted off the ground a little like on a cardboard box or something ) Then using the coax shield just before the coil to connect to tower & also choke the coax between the tuner or unun to prevent the rf coming back to the radio chassis. I do have an example of this on a video I think is called the WTF HF ANTENNA or similar. Keep up the great work mate
VK3YE tried this with a 100 foot light pole. He actually brought a manual tuner and wrapped several feet 60 feet of insulated wire tightly around the base of the pole...and operated it like a transformer...or an Inductor... worked well. try it again after watching his video. This is the title to search.."Trying a 28 m light pole as an antenna on 3.5 MHz"
That's a great idea! Using old abandoned tower for an antenna! One thing I thought that could make a difference possibly is to clean the contact point on the antenna tower. I would sand/grind a clean contact point for connecting to it. All that scale and crud on the surface may attenuate your output. Just a thought. I would like seeing a follow up in the future with mods to the tower antenna experiment.
Thanks Walt: it is nice to see that every of your activations do not go as plan. It makes you more ham real!!! Same thing happens to me sometimes! ke9le 73
Hi Walt it worked well for first attempt. Definitely a win on receive. Real world doesn't always go to plan. But that shows it's a honest test. Keep the videos rolling
You could use a drone to fly a tag line with a small fishing sinker attached to it up to the apex of this tower. Once it's where it needs to be, drop the sinker through the braces of the tower. You'll be able to use that tag line to hoist up a sloper or an inverted V. A sloper would be very easy with this tower. One wire as the radiating element and the tower itself as the counter poise. If you use an inverted V, just be sure not to pull the feedpoint up too close to the tower or it'll never tune right.
We have a tall octagonal chimney about 180 feet high formerly as part of a cotton mill which has a lightning rod on it. The council bought it for £1 and has a tulip top. I have mused with the idea of connecting that to my radio. A big signal on Top Band. Near a canal too. I'd prefer it to be a bit more remote than where it is with nearby houses. 210 feet, I just checked. G4GHB.
Suggestion; Since you really don't know what the feed point impedance is, take an analyzer with you next time then use a transformer closer to that range, as checked at the FEED POINT. The 1.2:1 SWR isn't the best measurement for effective antennas. Sand off the connection point at the tower if you hadn't, and at different heights (that tower just might be grounded since it's really a robust lightning rod). If you're close enough to revisit the park again, this might be a real good mini-series!
Hi Walt, That was a good experiment. Back here now in PA, there are a few old windmill structures on abandoned farm fields that now I would like to try. Some are metal into the ground; some are wooden with metal up in the air. If I get the opportunity, I’ll let you know if successful. As always, thanks for the fun video. ‘73 my friend! AC3EA 🏡
Great experiment Walt. I had very similar results when I tried tuning up a farmers fence. Great receive but hopelessly inefficient on transmit! Wondering if the tower might be grounded for lightning protection (other than through the concrete)? Either way, it was worth a try & made for an interesting video.
I got a contact many years ago using an Eastern National double-decker bus as the antenna. We were going through Chipping Ongar at the time ... Reached about seven miles back to school on a military cadet frequency around 5.3 MHz.
Excellent video. This is what ham radio is about, experimenting and seeing what results you get. I think the tower is grounded so that probably hindered it somewhat. Even so, you never know what will work until you try.
At least you gave it a try with what you had on hand at the time. Part of ham radio is experimenting with antennas. One of my fellow club members always says "If it can radiate, you can communicate." If you aren't in the area long enough to get the supplies needed to turn that tower into an antenna maybe you can have them with you on a future trip.
Well the first thing is the tower is not insulated above ground so you can't use it as a series of vertical however you can shunt feed it. This is done by taking a climbing up the tower anywhere from 10 to 20 ft and attaching your wire at that point. Then running that wire a quarter wave away from the tower at roughly a 45° angle. At that point where the wire now meets the Earth is your ground point. That would get the other half of your coax you are a fan meter goes in between the center of your coax a large variable capacitor in Ceres and then the wire leading up to the tower. My adjusting the capacitor you adjust a coupling and the slope radiator connected to the tower acts as an electrical shock feed and usually you try to do this at a certain distance that creates 904 degrees but since you can't calculate it you can pretty much guess about 20 feet
I used to got to Rocky Point as a kid in the 70’s & 80’s. Great seafood! Clam Cakes & Chowda!!! I probably rode that swing. Climb it and put an antenna at the top!!!
Canadian ham here. I noticed your Royal Canadian Navy shirt. I was thinking with the results you were getting, it would have been better to have an insulated wire tied to a steel bolt as a weight and fire it up onto the tower using a slingshot. 👍
Another thing you could try is some type of capacitor in the lead feeding the antenna. I know the rig has an autotuner but perhaps a good variable capacitor one could "peak" the receiver on then try to load up.
Keep your inspiration positive, Walt, I have the G-90 because of your passion for this xceiver and am havinga similar experience attached 2 a 80-10 no-name vertical. But most of my problem is that until recently 20 has been dead as a door nail with the solar flares. But, I’m still trying!!! 73’s N7TNQ.
I would have used some scotchbrite to clean the contact patch on the mast.Was the G90 set to 20 watts - bright sunlight can fool the eyes lol ? Maybe get Calum to model the radiation pattern lol. It's all about the fun in the end Walt - I have spent endless hours on my newly aquired Black Brick qrp sdr transceiver including insde of it. The tinkering alone is entertainment. 73 M7BLC
When you were making the previous video, when you discovered this tower, you got this twinkle in your eye that told us that you'd be back for this!!! If it were safe to climb and you could drop an isolated element down the middle, it seems like you'd be able to transmit and receive! There's got to be a way!
Looks like the tower must be grounded, which I would expect , therefore great rx, tx getting earthed. Wee idea with these types of experiments is to carry a small rf meter, tells you more than we can ever see. 73.
If you could find an obscure spot, could you drill a hole and tap it for a bolt with two nuts? You could sandwich a connector between the nuts and have a great contact to te structure. Doug
🎉 Any chance you formed a high impedance connection for transmit? I don’t think speaker wire and vice grips are going to cut it. You need to bond to that tower better in order to radiate.
Great experiment in portable ops plus no one walked up to or into your antenna! I will be up there in July for two days and plan to activate a park with my KX2 on CW. Perhaps I'll give that tower a try. Also, I need a recommendation for a good place to go for a lobster roll...thanks!
That was fun just watching you load that up. That was more than 1 wave length long . I wounder how much RF went into the ground . I would have tried 40/80/160 meters. You know know that a great RX antenna. 73's
I have only used grounded towers for 160, 80 and 40 meters. The tower is a bit long for 20 meters. Might be shooting your signal straight up and into space. I have used several methods for loading up a tower. My first attempt was a 70 foot tower on 160 meters. I though an omega match sounded easy but trying to tune it at the time was extremely difficult. I ended up with a gamma match. I connected a wire about 12 inches off the tower running up about 20 or 30 feet where it connected to the tower. I could tune the gamma capacitor for 1:1 anywhere on 160 meters and we won the CQ 160 contest in the multi op category for Virginia in 1982. Several years later at a different location I had a 70 foot tower and used a slant feed system. It was a wire connected at about 20 feet ( height not critical) and came off the tower at a 30 or 45 degree angle ( again not critical) through the back wall of my garage to a home made L network tuner. I could tune that on 160, 80 and 40 meters perfectly. I only used a 8 foot ground rod without any radials. Of course I lived on a creek with a salt marsh. The tower was within three or four feet of the salt marsh so ground was good. I found with my homemade L networks I can match anything to a piece of cable, however the radiating element must be large enough in terms of wavelength but not so large as to not have a desirable radiation pattern. In the case of a vertical we are talking elevation angle and not azimuth angle.
I wonder if the rust on the tower prevents a good connection from the feed point. Anyway great experiment enjoy your videos thanks for making radio fun not just free product reviews
We have some abandoned fire towers scattered around Northern Ontario Canada...they are all 99 feet tall. Thought of climbing up with a radio and dropping a 62 foor vertical with a 49:1 balun off the top. (these towers are REALLY remote) VA3IRF
I have the exact same problem using your Coastal 20 antenna on 10M. It kicks ass on 40, 30, 20, 17, 15, and 12M, but nobody hears it on 10, even though the swr is easily matched by an antenna tuner. Maybe it's the angle of radiation?
It would be interesting to know how disconnecting the vice grip affects the SWR. I wouldn't necessarily trust he metalwork joints in the tower to be conductive. Concrete, on the other hand, can be surprisingly conductive. A proper shunt feed would use two connections, on at the bottom, and one higher up, and would be low impedance, so even the 9:1 is going the wrong way. Another possible feed would be several turns around the base, though that's a pretty big base. It's pretty tall: did you try 80 or 160? Happy field day.
Got a friend here n Palestine tx who stop by the nat armore ask if he could try to hook up his ham radio to a army tank for a ant they said yes so he did and it worked and he made contacs
Love your work! A suggestion, if that's ok? For your kind of content it would sound better overall if you rendered the audio down to mono, at least for those who listen on headphones. 73
I'm not an expert of any mean but I think that such a huge structure needs way more power than the 20 watts the G90 provides? For a reason broadcast stations run killowatts? Its not the same 20ga wire vs a huge chunk of steel. Also thats why you reception its amazing but the power get lost before getting out? I will love to try that again but with an 100 watts at minimum like the FT891 or something similar. Dang it, now I am looking around for abandon towers lol. Thanks for the video.
Apparently the concrete shunted most of your TX RF , and/or on 20m most of your signal that was radiated might have went at out too high of an angle... you never know till you try. Might use it as a support with a throw weight or launcher. Learned something and enjoyed yourself doing so, I'd mark it as a Win! 73 -mike😎
Hi Walt I live in Rhode Island and was out at that tower last Wednesday evening. GF and I had a picnic at the sea wall after work then walked around. Imagine my surprise to see this video pop up! I enjoy your videos and maybe we can meet up sometime.
@@BKHD605 Could use a hook or "tie a knot", I've done it with trees. You need skills operating a drone. Drones don't have long battery life, you couldn't HAM for too long while just holding it there. Also difficult to call CQ while flying a drone...
That was fun! I follow K0KLB on UA-cam and see him connect to some crazy farm implements and structures. I connected to an insulated electric fence surrounding a quarter section of DNR land behind my farm. I did this before the rancher that rented it and electrified the wire. I was able from Western Minnesota to make contact with a friend of mine in Oregon that is a control on the YL System. I heard you try and contact Rick from the YL System and Art later. Art usually hears everything. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if I have ever made a contact with you. I'm KA0KAE Kevin
Some years ago, we were in Dublin and I'm looking at the 120m tall 'Spire of Dublin', thinking how do I match and load this thing without anyone noticing nor taking offence.
walt...try wrapping your feed point with heavy alumium foil and then clamp with the pliers. that should provide a capacitor at the feed point that may work better then the pliers alone. ken WB4AKK
The only thing I can think of is a Gamma match to the tower leg. No idea how long the tuning bar would have to be. Might get arrested too. The other idea 💡would be to throw a line as high up as you can and pull a random wire up the middle, feeding it accordingly. Nice attempt and the receive was awesome. 73 de N4SHO.
One of my Elmers likes to say, "If you had fun, then you won."
It's never a failure, you just found one way to not use the tower to transmit!
Great effort Walt. I'm very glad you tried this.
I think the issue here is you are feeding a signal into a near dead short. The bottom of the tower is grounded through the rebar in the concrete. I know it's not possible, but if you were to connect that feed wire up about 1/3 of the way on the tower, you'd have different results. Think of a yagi and how a gamma match feeds the driven element. The middle of the element is at ground potential, so the gamma is connected at a point away from ground (center) where there is some impedance that will accept power from the line.
Also, the 9:1 may have been working against you. The feed impedance is perhaps 1 ohm where your connection was made and we're dividing that by 9 so the coax probably only sees 1/9th ohm impedance. 20 watts in may render 0.001 watts out.
The best part of this experiment is that an antenna may hear exceedingly well, but that does not mean it will radiate equally well.
Keep up the super work bro. 73 OM
How can you tell if it's connected to rebar? The anchor bolts wouldn't necessarily be connected unless you know something else than I do.
@@joewoodchuck3824 You are correct, I can not tell because I was not there and did not build it. I should have said, "The bottom of the tower MAY be grounded at RF". Clearly it was an assumption on my part. Even If there is no rebar or other metal structure within the concrete footings, it is likely that there is an impedance path at RF frequencies at the footings which is helping to bring the bottom of the tower closer to electrical ground instead of isolated from it. Most freestanding towers used for AM broadcast were predominantly shunt fed for this exact same reason. Only those that are sitting on a porcelain insulator are series fed. Hope that answers your question. 73
@@WECB640 Yes. Agreed on all. Tnx.
Even it is was actually say 20 watts into the structure, my mind goes to how much of it there is mass wise and the steel resistance. I appreciate that AM stations do put KW in structures, but am I right in thinking that signal would ...I am tempted to say absorbed into the mass? Like feeding 20w into a copper wire vs Steel bar. Thanks Tim VK8LLA
@@mowtown75 Hi Tim, great question! From what I've seen and learned on the job, the skin effect definitely plays a part in how well a conductor radiates, but only when the frequency is very high and not at MW. The "mass" of the tower doesn't play a role here. The tower is just a conduit surface that the RF can ride on to generate the H and E fields. The thing is, the resistance that I think you're asking about is all in the skin effect on the surface of the tower. At MW frequencies, it really doesn't matter like it does at UHF and up. At UHF and higher frequencies, the surface must be very smooth and greatly benefits from a silver electroplating. It's all about the radiation resistance of the structure. Generally, the higher the "radiation resistance" (not to be confused with DC resistance) the better. In this case, the "Rr" is so low that the material of the structure and/or the surface condition or coating is such a small percentage of the total, it can be omitted. All MW towers that I've worked on are painted and most have serious surface corrosion under the paint, so the iron in the steel really doesn't play a part in affecting the RF.
IMO, the significant reason why this particular tower would not accept power was due to both the location of the feedpoint, and the fact that there was no proper groundplane below the tower for the RF to push against. If Walt were able to connect a 3 wire skirt somewhere about halfway up the tower, then it could be fed as a "folded monopole" on perhaps 160M and 80M, and have a much better chance of accepting power due to a higher Rr (provided of course that there was a proper groundscreen below) At the higher frequencies, the tower would act like a vertical Beverage. There would be two main lobes from each end. One would feed RF directly into the ground while the other would place the main radiation lobe straight up and be a "cloud burner" because it's much too long for SW. There would be some minor lobes at very high angles, and yes it would make some contacts, but the majority of the power would go up to the heavens.
Tim, back in the really old broadcasting books (1920's) I recall hearing of a weekly wipedown of the SW antenna wire by a newly hired technician. The purpose was to remove oxidization on the exposed wire which was usually made of phosphor -bronze. I'm not sure how successful this weekly chore actually was, or if it was more of a probation ritual for the tech to "pay his dues". At SW, I don't see any electrical benefit.
Great discussion. Keep thinking about antennas! It's a wonderful exploration.
PS. If you haven't seen it, watch "Standing up for standing waves" (just paste that into the search at the top of YT).
The video is a rebroadcast and is presented on the KN4AQ channel. It is one of the best demonstrations on traveling wave theory and worth it's weight in gold.
73 OM, de Hollywood 🎙
When I was getting my technician license a long time ago, the Elmer loaded up a metal stool that was in the classroom and was able to make a contact on 20 m. Pretty dang cool!
Thanks for testing it out Walt I can't be the only one who sees things like this and has the thought! This was a great attempt and like you said there's gotta be an adjustment to make to get out if you're receiving that well. 73
Thanks for the video Walt. Just got my Technician today at a local club’s field day. Let the journey begin!
Looks like a great shortwave antenna !!
Yes , kids should come around with their little radio and have fun.
Great experiment Walt.. Thanks for sharing your fun..
I thought of you Kevin when I watched this video!
@@1crazynordlander haha.. Those towers are great.. We did a old WInd Mill tower a few winters ago.. It worked great.. i worked Steve in SC ko4gms on 1 watt.. Probably just a lucky day, LOL..
I'm not an amateur, just a shortwave listener, and this looks really tempting to try. If nothing else, a bow and arrow to take a long wire up there would be neat to try. Might have write off the wire if I could not get it down though, I'm not climbing up there to get it back, ha ha.
Nice to see experimentation 🙏
One trick you can use
that seems a tad counterintuitive,
is, provided you can tune to a very high impedance you build a very high Inductance Pancake Coil and drive the coil directly from your active output (centre conductor of coax & directly connect the coax shield (reference ) to the metal tower.
Tuning into a High L inductor gives a high current kick back on the coax shield and that can be directed onto the tower.
You may also use a coaxial choke between the radio and the tuner.
You will be surprised how it works.
(Just to clarify) (Driving into the coil directly , meaning only into a coil that connects to nothing but is lifted off the ground a little like on a cardboard box or something )
Then using the coax shield just before the coil to connect to tower & also choke the coax between the tuner or unun to prevent the rf coming back to the radio chassis.
I do have an example of this on a video I think is called the WTF HF ANTENNA or similar.
Keep up the great work mate
VK3YE tried this with a 100 foot light pole. He actually brought a manual tuner and wrapped several feet 60 feet of insulated wire tightly around the base of the pole...and operated it like a transformer...or an Inductor... worked well. try it again after watching his video. This is the title to search.."Trying a 28 m light pole as an antenna on 3.5 MHz"
Tune in next week when Walt sneaks in after dark with a body harness and a portable rotor and a hex beam 😂. Love your videos and experiences. KO4GSM
That's a great idea! Using old abandoned tower for an antenna!
One thing I thought that could make a difference possibly is to clean the contact point on the antenna tower. I would sand/grind a clean contact point for connecting to it. All that scale and crud on the surface may attenuate your output. Just a thought. I would like seeing a follow up in the future with mods to the tower antenna experiment.
You do the best experiments. Keeping the hobby fresh!
Great experiment! The rebar and concrete are ufer ground.
Thanks Walt: it is nice to see that every of your activations do not go as plan. It makes you more ham real!!! Same thing happens to me sometimes! ke9le 73
Cool experiment! Thank you sir for showing the good, bad and ugly. Its all info that can be used.
Awesome video. Keep em coming.
Very interesting experiment. Thanks for taking the time to do this and share it on your channel.
Epic! We would go to Rocky Point all summer and then eat at the Lobster House Good memories
Hi Walt it worked well for first attempt. Definitely a win on receive. Real world doesn't always go to plan. But that shows it's a honest test. Keep the videos rolling
Good experiment, do more of these!
You could use a drone to fly a tag line with a small fishing sinker attached to it up to the apex of this tower. Once it's where it needs to be, drop the sinker through the braces of the tower. You'll be able to use that tag line to hoist up a sloper or an inverted V. A sloper would be very easy with this tower. One wire as the radiating element and the tower itself as the counter poise. If you use an inverted V, just be sure not to pull the feedpoint up too close to the tower or it'll never tune right.
We have a tall octagonal chimney about 180 feet high formerly as part of a cotton mill which has a lightning rod on it. The council bought it for £1 and has a tulip top.
I have mused with the idea of connecting that to my radio. A big signal on Top Band. Near a canal too. I'd prefer it to be a bit more remote than where it is with nearby houses.
210 feet, I just checked.
G4GHB.
Good experiment!
At least you tried it out, Walt. Give it a go or you'll never know.... 👍👍
Suggestion; Since you really don't know what the feed point impedance is, take an analyzer with you next time then use a transformer closer to that range, as checked at the FEED POINT. The 1.2:1 SWR isn't the best measurement for effective antennas. Sand off the connection point at the tower if you hadn't, and at different heights (that tower just might be grounded since it's really a robust lightning rod). If you're close enough to revisit the park again, this might be a real good mini-series!
Hi Walt, That was a good experiment. Back here now in PA, there are a few old windmill structures on abandoned farm fields that now I would like to try. Some are metal into the ground; some are wooden with metal up in the air. If I get the opportunity, I’ll let you know if successful.
As always, thanks for the fun video. ‘73 my friend! AC3EA 🏡
I would try it again with about 15-20 ground radials at 33ft fed from the center to all 4 legs with vice grips.
Thanks Walt that was cool
Great experiment Walt.
I had very similar results when I tried tuning up a farmers fence. Great receive but hopelessly inefficient on transmit!
Wondering if the tower might be grounded for lightning protection (other than through the concrete)?
Either way, it was worth a try & made for an interesting video.
I got a contact many years ago using an Eastern National double-decker bus as the antenna. We were going through Chipping Ongar at the time ... Reached about seven miles back to school on a military cadet frequency around 5.3 MHz.
Excellent video. This is what ham radio is about, experimenting and seeing what results you get. I think the tower is grounded so that probably hindered it somewhat. Even so, you never know what will work until you try.
That was a great experiment walt! I would love to do that myself one day
Walt this is ham radio at its best..... this is the way of the ham
This was definitely an interesting experiment.
At least you gave it a try with what you had on hand at the time. Part of ham radio is experimenting with antennas. One of my fellow club members always says "If it can radiate, you can communicate." If you aren't in the area long enough to get the supplies needed to turn that tower into an antenna maybe you can have them with you on a future trip.
Good old Rocky point! I can smell the clam cakes and chowdah!
Great video. I always wondered if this kind of tower could be repurposed for ham stuff. Thanks for the video
Well the first thing is the tower is not insulated above ground so you can't use it as a series of vertical however you can shunt feed it. This is done by taking a climbing up the tower anywhere from 10 to 20 ft and attaching your wire at that point. Then running that wire a quarter wave away from the tower at roughly a 45° angle. At that point where the wire now meets the Earth is your ground point. That would get the other half of your coax you are a fan meter goes in between the center of your coax a large variable capacitor in Ceres and then the wire leading up to the tower. My adjusting the capacitor you adjust a coupling and the slope radiator connected to the tower acts as an electrical shock feed and usually you try to do this at a certain distance that creates 904 degrees but since you can't calculate it you can pretty much guess about 20 feet
Oh heck yes, I've always wanted to try this. Good job man! I think VK3YE got some huge fence thing at a sports park to tune up once.
A very interesting effort!
Id ASSUME your signal was mostly headed to ground through the legs?
I used to got to Rocky Point as a kid in the 70’s & 80’s.
Great seafood! Clam Cakes & Chowda!!! I probably rode that swing.
Climb it and put an antenna at the top!!!
Canadian ham here. I noticed your Royal Canadian Navy shirt. I was thinking with the results you were getting, it would have been better to have an insulated wire tied to a steel bolt as a weight and fire it up onto the tower using a slingshot. 👍
G90 will tune anything! Cool experiment Walt.
Well you had the tower in your channel intro since ages…. T‘was really time to tune it up 😊
I love this kinda experimentation. Always fun to see what you can turn into an antenna
Mad cool. Now you know!
Another thing you could try is some type of capacitor in the lead feeding the antenna. I know the rig has an autotuner but perhaps a good variable capacitor one could "peak" the receiver on then try to load up.
Keep your inspiration positive, Walt, I have the G-90 because of your passion for this xceiver and am havinga similar experience attached 2 a 80-10 no-name vertical. But most of my problem is that until recently 20 has been dead as a door nail with the solar flares. But, I’m still trying!!! 73’s N7TNQ.
Awesome
I would have used some scotchbrite to clean the contact patch on the mast.Was the G90 set to 20 watts - bright sunlight can fool the eyes lol ? Maybe get Calum to model the radiation pattern lol. It's all about the fun in the end Walt - I have spent endless hours on my newly aquired Black Brick qrp sdr transceiver including insde of it. The tinkering alone is entertainment. 73 M7BLC
Thanks Walt....this reminds me of some of the things that Kevin, K0KLB has used for an antenna.
For some reason I've never thought to try this on the old windmill in our yard. It's only around 30' tall but worth a shot.
Cool try!
Walt, love your videos, waited to see you use the tower, oh well, good try👍 AA2BD NJ 👍
Great xmt hopes for that big boy. Terrific reception. I blame the visegrip for the transmit issue. 😉😎
Great try. What about using an air cannon to shoot an end fed as high as you can?
Drone? I have a small one, never tried it (yet!) for wire placement. Another experiment waiting to happen :) de KA8VLW, Ken, Michigan
When you were making the previous video, when you discovered this tower, you got this twinkle in your eye that told us that you'd be back for this!!! If it were safe to climb and you could drop an isolated element down the middle, it seems like you'd be able to transmit and receive! There's got to be a way!
Nice vidéo... i did not knew that Canadian Royal Navy had t-shirt by the way lol!
Looks like the tower must be grounded, which I would expect , therefore great rx, tx getting earthed.
Wee idea with these types of experiments is to carry a small rf meter, tells you more than we can ever see. 73.
That is weird. Great receive
If you could find an obscure spot, could you drill a hole and tap it for a bolt with two nuts? You could sandwich a connector between the nuts and have a great contact to te structure. Doug
Now that is something I might have to do
The great thing is this guy has no shame to post this. Nice to watch.
what does this mean exactly??
🎉 Any chance you formed a high impedance connection for transmit? I don’t think speaker wire and vice grips are going to cut it. You need to bond to that tower better in order to radiate.
I wonder if changing the feed point would have made a difference? Or even disconnecting it and see if it's really loop on the ground.
Great experiment in portable ops plus no one walked up to or into your antenna! I will be up there in July for two days and plan to activate a park with my KX2 on CW. Perhaps I'll give that tower a try. Also, I need a recommendation for a good place to go for a lobster roll...thanks!
That was fun just watching you load that up. That was more than 1 wave length long . I wounder how much RF went into the ground . I would have tried 40/80/160 meters. You know know that a great RX antenna. 73's
Very interesting video. It's all about experimenting, Walt. By the way, where did you order your custom knobs for the G90?
Very interesting Walt! Nice effort! Always fun to try and to see! 👍📻⚡WA7FLY
I have only used grounded towers for 160, 80 and 40 meters. The tower is a bit long for 20 meters. Might be shooting your signal straight up and into space.
I have used several methods for loading up a tower. My first attempt was a 70 foot tower on 160 meters. I though an omega match sounded easy but trying to tune it at the time was extremely difficult. I ended up with a gamma match. I connected a wire about 12 inches off the tower running up about 20 or 30 feet where it connected to the tower. I could tune the gamma capacitor for 1:1 anywhere on 160 meters and we won the CQ 160 contest in the multi op category for Virginia in 1982. Several years later at a different location I had a 70 foot tower and used a slant feed system. It was a wire connected at about 20 feet ( height not critical) and came off the tower at a 30 or 45 degree angle ( again not critical) through the back wall of my garage to a home made L network tuner. I could tune that on 160, 80 and 40 meters perfectly. I only used a 8 foot ground rod without any radials. Of course I lived on a creek with a salt marsh.
The tower was within three or four feet of the salt marsh so ground was good.
I found with my homemade L networks I can match anything to a piece of cable, however the radiating element must be large enough in terms of wavelength but not so large as to not have a desirable radiation pattern. In the case of a vertical we are talking elevation angle and not azimuth angle.
Got my Dually kit today. I'll get it built next week. 73
MEGA WOW! is this for just receiving or IS that tower a repeater?? Lucky Fellow!
I'm in Toronto and trying to use the CN Tower for what you did here.
I wonder if the rust on the tower prevents a good connection from the feed point. Anyway great experiment enjoy your videos thanks for making radio fun not just free product reviews
To me, it's all about the fun factor. :)
Perhaps you might scrape a little spot on the tower order to have a better signal because the paint and rust prevented good contact.
We have some abandoned fire towers scattered around Northern Ontario Canada...they are all 99 feet tall. Thought of climbing up with a radio and dropping a 62 foor vertical with a 49:1 balun off the top. (these towers are REALLY remote) VA3IRF
If they are that remote, you'll be lucky to have your bones found years later. If you do try, good luck!
Perfect for shortwave listening tho!!!!
it was worth trying with what you had to hand.
I have the exact same problem using your Coastal 20 antenna on 10M. It kicks ass on 40, 30, 20, 17, 15, and 12M, but nobody hears it on 10, even though the swr is easily matched by an antenna tuner. Maybe it's the angle of radiation?
It would be interesting to know how disconnecting the vice grip affects the SWR. I wouldn't necessarily trust he metalwork joints in the tower to be conductive. Concrete, on the other hand, can be surprisingly conductive. A proper shunt feed would use two connections, on at the bottom, and one higher up, and would be low impedance, so even the 9:1 is going the wrong way. Another possible feed would be several turns around the base, though that's a pretty big base. It's pretty tall: did you try 80 or 160?
Happy field day.
I thought for sure you’d make contacts with that tower. I saw a video of a ham tuning up an old tractor.
Got a friend here n Palestine tx who stop by the nat armore ask if he could try to hook up his ham radio to a army tank for a ant they said yes so he did and it worked and he made contacs
Love your work! A suggestion, if that's ok? For your kind of content it would sound better overall if you rendered the audio down to mono, at least for those who listen on headphones. 73
I'm not an expert of any mean but I think that such a huge structure needs way more power than the 20 watts the G90 provides? For a reason broadcast stations run killowatts? Its not the same 20ga wire vs a huge chunk of steel. Also thats why you reception its amazing but the power get lost before getting out? I will love to try that again but with an 100 watts at minimum like the FT891 or something similar. Dang it, now I am looking around for abandon towers lol. Thanks for the video.
Great experiment and great video!!!!! Robert K5TPC
You need to connect the center conductor to the tower,and the shield to a radial field below the tower.
Apparently the concrete shunted most of your TX RF , and/or on 20m most of your signal that was radiated might have went at out too high of an angle... you never know till you try.
Might use it as a support with a throw weight or launcher.
Learned something and enjoyed yourself doing so, I'd mark it as a Win! 73 -mike😎
Did you sand the spot where you clamped to the tower?
Hi Walt I live in Rhode Island and was out at that tower last Wednesday evening. GF and I had a picnic at the sea wall after work then walked around. Imagine my surprise to see this video pop up! I enjoy your videos and maybe we can meet up sometime.
A mini RC car with a neodymium magnet epoxied to the bottom! Should be able to drive up the side of it and bring a wire up to the top!
Yes!
A drone would be easier...
@@lgroschiensalle how you going to attach it at the top then? might aswell just forget the tower and use the drone...
@@BKHD605 Could use a hook or "tie a knot", I've done it with trees. You need skills operating a drone. Drones don't have long battery life, you couldn't HAM for too long while just holding it there. Also difficult to call CQ while flying a drone...
@@lgroschiensalle Gil, The Radio Prepper, F4WBY has a video where he uses an antenna on a drone.
That was fun! I follow K0KLB on UA-cam and see him connect to some crazy farm implements and structures. I connected to an insulated electric fence surrounding a quarter section of DNR land behind my farm. I did this before the rancher that rented it and electrified the wire. I was able from Western Minnesota to make contact with a friend of mine in Oregon that is a control on the YL System. I heard you try and contact Rick from the YL System and Art later. Art usually hears everything.
Thanks for sharing. I wonder if I have ever made a contact with you. I'm KA0KAE Kevin
Some years ago, we were in Dublin and I'm looking at the 120m tall 'Spire of Dublin', thinking how do I match and load this thing without anyone noticing nor taking offence.
You were playing "real radio" Walt. Sometimes things just don't work, but if you don't try you don't know.
A time domain reflector would have been a better choice of test instrument.
Love it! Will it antenna? Not so much, but so interesting to see your experiment. Jeff AD4F.
walt...try wrapping your feed point with heavy alumium foil and then clamp with the pliers.
that should provide a capacitor at the feed point that may work better then the pliers alone.
ken WB4AKK
The only thing I can think of is a Gamma match to the tower leg. No idea how long the tuning bar would have to be. Might get arrested too. The other idea 💡would be to throw a line as high up as you can and pull a random wire up the middle, feeding it accordingly. Nice attempt and the receive was awesome. 73 de N4SHO.