I remember when 410 replaced the R22.. Customers with no money to replace the entire unit, I use to convert the systems by replacing just the compressor, pressure switches , liquids and suction filters and expansion valves... At the any , I have converted around 100 units, ( package and split ) in the average of 5 to 30 tons. And on 2023 are still working properly. A lot of marketing people were saying that the copper was not design for such much higher pressures, well guess what, some of those unit ( back in 2014 ), were already 13 years old, and nothing breaks down after conversion, therefore, all of them still cooling. I just slightly reconfigured the compressor size. Now if is gonna be and existing 410 unit , and lets says that I want to try what R32 would do, I just need to find out what kind of oil the new units will gonna use, pressure, etc.. At the end, copper , aluminum are the same in all units. Most of everything now is marketing, or tricks to scare people and to sell.. Remember, not everyone , and with the actual economy , are capable to change out the entire equipment.
One day, i doubt it, the people will realize that the common denominator to our industries is the gov and industry collusion and their mandates. I was one of the first to take that EPA refrigerant exam that we ac guys must have to buy refrigerant, we were told at that time that the ozone layer was failing due to refrigerants and propellants. This was going to cause everyone to get skin cancer and die. As soon as the USA signed onto to this life saving event, the ozone layer suddenly closed and we were all saved. At that very moment, even being a young guy at that time, I immediately realized we were boondoggled. I have never trusted the gov or industry since. Complete sham. This refrigerant change will happen every 10-15 years as in perpetuity as patents run their course. Too bad.
Absolutely correct…it all has been a scam from the beginning…and we all bought it. People are fed up. Now the industry will suffer because I have wealthy folks placing 3 ton units with window units and splits in their homes and not repairing the package systems. When you quote two 3 ton units at almost $20k, folks say NO. Convert the old or they choose multiple splits etc. it is time to learn more about conversions and Blueon refrigerants
R32 in the condenser temp range of 100 to 140 degs F is 375 - 557 psig R410a in the condenser temp range of 100 to 140 degs F is 343 - 542 psig. R32 in the evaporator temp range of 35 to 55 degs F is 110-160 psig. R410a in the evaporator temp range of 35 to 55 degs F is 109-157 psig Enthalpy [BTU/lb] is higher for R32 (good thing) by about 20%. This mostly due to slightly greater gas density of R32. R410a TXV's should operate okay with R32 The higher high side pressure is main objection to replacing with R32. Any manf. warranty will go out the window if you substitute R32. Because of slightly greater density of R32, the condenser will likely be more efficient at giving up heat, keeping head pressure on compressor down. Subcooling temp should be set slightly lower. Places like Arizona in summertime is dicey on maximum head pressure. Don't know how much the higher density will impact compressor as to damaging reed valves. If I had no alternative, I would likely put in R32 if unit uses a scroll compressor, but again no more warranty if you do. Inverters VFD systems are likely more forgiving as they already limit compressor head pressure and allow low superheat conditions. They should take about 15-20% less R32 charge weight than R410a. Perhaps some manufacturers may give updated numbers for subcooling and charge weight to approve R32 substitution, but more likely they want to sell you a new unit.
Good to know. I don't see the slightly higher pressures being a problem at all since the differences are so minor and almost certainly within the safety margins the unit was designed for and should still be well below the test pressures during operation. Oil and material compatibility should be no problem since R410a is half R32 anyways. Higher compressor discharge temps may or may not be a problem in practice. We will never see any manufacturer approve of using R32 in an R410a system since doing so would void its safety approvals and be a huge liability. Using flammable refrigerants in systems not designed for them is officially strictly forbidden and manufacturers won't pay to recertify existing units for use with flammable refrigerants when doing so wouldn't benefit them in any way compared to the customer buying a whole new system.
@@sciencetestsubject What that means is they meet the safety standards for the slightly flammable R32 refrigerant, therefore they are backwards compatible with the older non flammable R410a. If something was not certified to use a flammable refrigerant, it's technically never acceptable to fill it with a flammable refrigerant.
Remember R32 is flammable and R410A is not. If you put R32 (don'tt know why? since R410A is non-flammable, non-toxic and non-explosive and available at least till 2040) the R410A equipment might creat a spark that will ignite R32!
Just getting some new units in from China with a factory fill of R32. They are the same as the 410a units, same part numbers and everything. I can't seem to get R32 yet. But if it comes time I need to do something with the refrigerant, I'd have no hesitation to pull the R32 and put 410 in.
A few facts............................ R410A WORKS IN R32- units R32 WORKS IN R410A........ R32 has a slightly higher discharge........ Only benefits In the U.K of R32 a 5kw or 7kw unit uses smaller pipework R32 is an A2L in europe but not in japan........... R32 and R410A is almost the same gas................................... Of course its on paper illegal.. But the above is true... hope your good sir
My question would be if r32 refrigerant isn’t supposed to be near hot surfaces what about crank case heaters are they not needed any more for the use of r32 refrigerant in these systems?
All of what you said maybe true however keep in mind that R32 is just part of what makes 410a which is 32 and r125 so if a 410 system is leaking it’s already running on R32 as is
Absolutely F the EPA! Wealthy bastards flying to hell and back twice in private jets spraying greenhouse gasses and definitely contributing to “climate change” but we are not allowed to use a coolant that has the *potential* to cause climate change.
I’ve had two 12,000 btu window units that use r32, both failed at 16 to 20 months. Two different brands with similar compressors burn out. The flammability issue with a compressor failure makes me nervous.
In case it helps anyone. I have an R32 system that leaked. I ended up discharging all and filled back with 410a until I reached 1150-120 psi. R32 is very expensive. R410a is easily available online or marketplace. Hope it helps
I'm DIY and ran across some data that is not clear about motor bearings. In one brand I found condesnser motor specs to show various bearing types. One in particular of the few typical types such as sleeve or ball bearing, SAB bearings. I looked them up and still cannot find what they are, sleeve or ball bearing design. Does anyone know what a SAB bearing is and if the design is longer lasting as the ball bearing types?
@@EphbaumYou can ignore quality and buy cheap Chinesium and replace that crap more often and likely at the most inconvenient time. a quality motor will last for decades. It'll cost you more in the long run and be less reliable. In the short run or a temporary fix, who cares may apply.
Ok u say no so what do i do with my mini split then is there a replacement or not my mini split is basically very low on R410a and needs charging so what do i do ??
gonna work fine . heck I'll do it to my home ac as soon as I get my hands on some and see the difference. may even work better . me taking r134a out of my car (that is factory 134) and putting in r12 sure as heck chilled the ac out . I'm wondering if 401a and yes that's 401 not 410 would work as well as r12...
My home I purchased few months ago, has 2 wall units, both are r32 refrigerant. Im going to replace with splits eventually but ill see how well they work.
Interesting. I have an R32 minisplit that the HVAC guys filled with 410A cause that is what they had. So I guess the inverse of what you are talking about. I asked them about it and they didn't seem too concerned. Perhaps it just means my system will be slightly less efficient?
An important point was missed. The GWP effect is when there is a LEAK! not while it's in the system. When & IF it leaks when there is a fire, it will propagate the fire!!! Also, very important flammable A2L (R32 or R454B) might and could INTERNALY explode. This is true if the vacuum process (must be higher than R410A an A1 class non-flammable, non-explosive class) is not perfect (presence of moisture/oxygen) as when compressed the temperature could reach the lubricating OIL ignition temperature, and in the presence of flammable refrigerant (any A2, A2L or worse A3) the oil might ignite the flammable refrigerants! This possibility will not exist if A1 class non-flammable refrigerants are present. Neil Afram Director of Space Air Ltd. distributor of AC & Heat Pumps since 1980. Standards & Regulation relating to refrigerants classes ASHRAE 34/15 & ISO 817/5149 IMPORTANT: You can replace R32 with R410A but not the other way around due to flammability of R32
@@NewHVACGuide Probably is Josh the other day people are complaining about they couldn't hear you and I could hear you perfectly I guess it's called digital cell phone technology the analog used to be perfect
WHAT IS BS????... please explain I have two units 1 is just installed 5 months Rheem. The guy that installed it I asked him to check my four and a half year old unit and top it off. He would not do it because he said it had another kinds of refrigerant? To me it sounded ridiculous
I remember when 410 replaced the R22.. Customers with no money to replace the entire unit, I use to convert the systems by replacing just the compressor, pressure switches , liquids and suction filters and expansion valves... At the any , I have converted around 100 units, ( package and split ) in the average of 5 to 30 tons. And on 2023 are still working properly. A lot of marketing people were saying that the copper was not design for such much higher pressures, well guess what, some of those unit ( back in 2014 ), were already 13 years old, and nothing breaks down after conversion, therefore, all of them still cooling. I just slightly reconfigured the compressor size. Now if is gonna be and existing 410 unit , and lets says that I want to try what R32 would do, I just need to find out what kind of oil the new units will gonna use, pressure, etc.. At the end, copper , aluminum are the same in all units. Most of everything now is marketing, or tricks to scare people and to sell.. Remember, not everyone , and with the actual economy , are capable to change out the entire equipment.
One day, i doubt it, the people will realize that the common denominator to our industries is the gov and industry collusion and their mandates. I was one of the first to take that EPA refrigerant exam that we ac guys must have to buy refrigerant, we were told at that time that the ozone layer was failing due to refrigerants and propellants. This was going to cause everyone to get skin cancer and die. As soon as the USA signed onto to this life saving event, the ozone layer suddenly closed and we were all saved. At that very moment, even being a young guy at that time, I immediately realized we were boondoggled. I have never trusted the gov or industry since. Complete sham. This refrigerant change will happen every 10-15 years as in perpetuity as patents run their course. Too bad.
Agree changingvthe compressor and TXv changes R22 to R410 no issues
Same here. I still do some conversions
Absolutely correct…it all has been a scam from the beginning…and we all bought it. People are fed up. Now the industry will suffer because I have wealthy folks placing 3 ton units with window units and splits in their homes and not repairing the package systems. When you quote two 3 ton units at almost $20k, folks say NO. Convert the old or they choose multiple splits etc. it is time to learn more about conversions and Blueon refrigerants
R32 in the condenser temp range of 100 to 140 degs F is 375 - 557 psig
R410a in the condenser temp range of 100 to 140 degs F is 343 - 542 psig.
R32 in the evaporator temp range of 35 to 55 degs F is 110-160 psig.
R410a in the evaporator temp range of 35 to 55 degs F is 109-157 psig
Enthalpy [BTU/lb] is higher for R32 (good thing) by about 20%. This mostly due to slightly greater gas density of R32.
R410a TXV's should operate okay with R32
The higher high side pressure is main objection to replacing with R32. Any manf. warranty will go out the window if you substitute R32. Because of slightly greater density of R32, the condenser will likely be more efficient at giving up heat, keeping head pressure on compressor down. Subcooling temp should be set slightly lower. Places like Arizona in summertime is dicey on maximum head pressure.
Don't know how much the higher density will impact compressor as to damaging reed valves. If I had no alternative, I would likely put in R32 if unit uses a scroll compressor, but again no more warranty if you do.
Inverters VFD systems are likely more forgiving as they already limit compressor head pressure and allow low superheat conditions. They should take about 15-20% less R32 charge weight than R410a.
Perhaps some manufacturers may give updated numbers for subcooling and charge weight to approve R32 substitution, but more likely they want to sell you a new unit.
Good to know. I don't see the slightly higher pressures being a problem at all since the differences are so minor and almost certainly within the safety margins the unit was designed for and should still be well below the test pressures during operation. Oil and material compatibility should be no problem since R410a is half R32 anyways. Higher compressor discharge temps may or may not be a problem in practice.
We will never see any manufacturer approve of using R32 in an R410a system since doing so would void its safety approvals and be a huge liability. Using flammable refrigerants in systems not designed for them is officially strictly forbidden and manufacturers won't pay to recertify existing units for use with flammable refrigerants when doing so wouldn't benefit them in any way compared to the customer buying a whole new system.
I have a R32 Mitsubishi 2 head mini split system, the indoor units state on the nameplate that they can be used with both R32 and R410A.
@@sciencetestsubject What that means is they meet the safety standards for the slightly flammable R32 refrigerant, therefore they are backwards compatible with the older non flammable R410a. If something was not certified to use a flammable refrigerant, it's technically never acceptable to fill it with a flammable refrigerant.
@@sciencetestsubject That would be logical because already certified with more flammable R32.
Good stuff
Are you saying if you have 410A you can throw in there are 32 and it shouldn't hurt the compressor or other parts of the system sit?
"Honey, I'm making a video about putting R-32 in R-410a system for my youtube channel, even though I don't know anything about it. This is brilliant!"
Remember R32 is flammable and R410A is not. If you put R32 (don'tt know why? since R410A is non-flammable, non-toxic and non-explosive and available at least till 2040) the R410A equipment might creat a spark that will ignite R32!
@neilafram663 I was being facetous. Jesus...
@@Ephbaum I wasn't!!! you think its a joke 🙄 I don't ass-u-me you are an engineer!!!
Just getting some new units in from China with a factory fill of R32. They are the same as the 410a units, same part numbers and everything. I can't seem to get R32 yet. But if it comes time I need to do something with the refrigerant, I'd have no hesitation to pull the R32 and put 410 in.
Joshua Griffin: As always you gave good advise!
Limping my 2008 R-22 Goodman along until I can skip 410 and go straight to an A2L
A few facts............................ R410A WORKS IN R32- units R32 WORKS IN R410A........ R32 has a slightly higher discharge........ Only benefits In the U.K of R32 a 5kw or 7kw unit uses smaller pipework
R32 is an A2L in europe but not in japan........... R32 and R410A is almost the same gas...................................
Of course its on paper illegal.. But the above is true...
hope your good sir
Did you try putting R410a in R32 units ?
My question would be if r32 refrigerant isn’t supposed to be near hot surfaces what about crank case heaters are they not needed any more for the use of r32 refrigerant in these systems?
All of what you said maybe true however keep in mind that R32 is just part of what makes 410a which is 32 and r125 so if a 410 system is leaking it’s already running on R32 as is
here my take on the refrigerant F the EPA customers getting shafted by all
that's the fact everyone else seems to be ignoring.
Absolutely F the EPA! Wealthy bastards flying to hell and back twice in private jets spraying greenhouse gasses and definitely contributing to “climate change” but we are not allowed to use a coolant that has the *potential* to cause climate change.
I’ve had two 12,000 btu window units that use r32, both failed at 16 to 20 months. Two different brands with similar compressors burn out. The flammability issue with a compressor failure makes me nervous.
I have 2 Mitsubishi R32 mini split system. Both are 5 and 6 years now and they work fine, nothing has broken yet.
I am not ready to mess up my R410 ac system yet.
Hang on and save money! 🙂
Great information 😊
OIl is thinner in r32 systems. Oil will not return to compressor if you dump 32 in a 410a system
In case it helps anyone. I have an R32 system that leaked. I ended up discharging all and filled back with 410a until I reached 1150-120 psi.
R32 is very expensive. R410a is easily available online or marketplace. Hope it helps
I'm DIY and ran across some data that is not clear about motor bearings. In one brand I found condesnser motor specs to show various bearing types. One in particular of the few typical types such as sleeve or ball bearing, SAB bearings. I looked them up and still cannot find what they are, sleeve or ball bearing design. Does anyone know what a SAB bearing is and if the design is longer lasting as the ball bearing types?
Why on earth could you possibly care about condenser motor bearings to where you're researching about them? Who cares? Replace the motor. Jesus...
@@EphbaumYou can ignore quality and buy cheap Chinesium and replace that crap more often and likely at the most inconvenient time. a quality motor will last for decades. It'll cost you more in the long run and be less reliable. In the short run or a temporary fix, who cares may apply.
Why are we going to these so called mildly flamable refrigerents? Heck R 290 is straight propane used in manily commercial reach in fridges.
Looks like a 20 years a/c will now be a 5 year a/c just like most appliances.
But, can I put R410 in my buddies R32 window 1 yr old system that leaked out? I don't want to buy any R32. I have lots of R410. How would I do it.
Slap it in there, what’s the problem
Ok u say no so what do i do with my mini split then is there a replacement or not my mini split is basically very low on R410a and needs charging so what do i do ??
Can replace 410a with comstar rs-53, so co-star says.
gonna work fine . heck I'll do it to my home ac as soon as I get my hands on some and see the difference. may even work better . me taking r134a out of my car (that is factory 134) and putting in r12 sure as heck chilled the ac out . I'm wondering if 401a and yes that's 401 not 410 would work as well as r12...
My home I purchased few months ago, has 2 wall units, both are r32 refrigerant. Im going to replace with splits eventually but ill see how well they work.
Just make sure that the splits come with R32 like the Daikin line.
@ricardocalles140 i put in daikin single zone for my bedroom but its still r410a, haven't seen or installed any r32 splits yet.
Would you stock pile as an investment r134a?
I personally wouldn’t but I’d be curious if anyone has. I remember folks doing it with r22 but I feel like that time window has closed
Interesting. I have an R32 minisplit that the HVAC guys filled with 410A cause that is what they had. So I guess the inverse of what you are talking about. I asked them about it and they didn't seem too concerned. Perhaps it just means my system will be slightly less efficient?
Is it still working? Cause I’m about to do the same
It is still working and is cold as ice even with 100+ temps in Idaho.@@terencemerritt
I'm going to be doing this because I installed a mini split and loss some refrigerant
I think you’re thinking correctly.
An important point was missed. The GWP effect is when there is a LEAK! not while it's in the system. When & IF it leaks when there is a fire, it will propagate the fire!!!
Also, very important flammable A2L (R32 or R454B) might and could INTERNALY explode. This is true if the vacuum process (must be higher than R410A an A1 class non-flammable, non-explosive class) is not perfect (presence of moisture/oxygen) as when compressed the temperature could reach the lubricating OIL ignition temperature, and in the presence of flammable refrigerant (any A2, A2L or worse A3) the oil might ignite the flammable refrigerants!
This possibility will not exist if A1 class non-flammable refrigerants are present.
Neil Afram Director of Space Air Ltd. distributor of AC & Heat Pumps since 1980.
Standards & Regulation relating to refrigerants classes ASHRAE 34/15 & ISO 817/5149
IMPORTANT: You can replace R32 with R410A but not the other way around due to flammability of R32
This is good info. However, what are you saying homeowners should do? They pretty much have no choice but to go with these new refrigerant systems.
Can you put 410A in an R32 system?
I cant even find R32 on any website, can find other refrigerants.
Hi Josh
How are you bro?
Great! and you?
R32 works in r410 system. Risk of killing compressor as the discharge temp is high.
The mfg will never check
higher temps of R32 requires ultra premium refrigerant oil, that is not used in R410a systems. So one needs to upgrade the oils.
410a has R32 already in it.
Yes it does! 🙂
Should you and can you are two different things.
Josh your video keeps skipping and going repeating again itself again I'm not sure why
Hey pal. Mine computer is playing it through just fine. Maybe it's your internet connection?
@@NewHVACGuide
Probably is Josh the other day people are complaining about they couldn't hear you and I could hear you perfectly
I guess it's called digital cell phone technology the analog used to be perfect
@@bruceelias2732 Most likely is Spectrum or AT&T speed delivery problem!
cool
Me as a certified AC technician. I would not put R32 in a R410 system because of efficiency issues and epa regulations
You have wasted my time
Sorry pal
All BS
Agree
Doug
B,S to compatibility of 410A to R32???
WHAT IS BS????... please explain I have two units 1 is just installed 5 months Rheem. The guy that installed it I asked him to check my four and a half year old unit and top it off. He would not do it because he said it had another kinds of refrigerant? To me it sounded ridiculous