What People Missed About MGS2's Most Controversial Character
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 гру 2021
- Support me on Patreon for exclusive content, works cited, podcasts, Q&As, and more!
/ futurasound
Follow FSP on Twitter:
/ futurasound
I've got part two of WTF MGS2 on the way! But in the meantime, while working I realized there's one character from the game in particular that really deserves a second shake. I'm talking about the subject of this deep-dive virtual essay, Rosemary. Along the way, besides revisiting some nice memories / memes passed down courtesy of Rosemary's meticulous saves, we discuss the character in a general sense, while fleshing out her role in the wider narrative and related themes.
******************
"The long awaited sequel to the PlayStation game Metal Gear Solid, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty was released on November 13th, 2001. MGS2 does not star the former FOXHOUND agent Solid Snake. Instead, Hideo Kojima took players into the mind of super soldier Raiden, a stealth operative on his first live combat scenario. His objective is to stop a group of terrorists, calling themselves the Sons of Liberty. This includes blowing up a large oil cleanup facility and killing the President of the United States.
MGS2's innovations included its introduction of the laser sight mechanic for more accurate aiming, and a refined cover system that allowed both players and enemies to shoot from cover. It also introduced collective enemy AI routines that relied on squad tactics rather than working individually, while individual enemies expressed fear and even birds had their own AI routines. MGS2 was considered to have the best enemy AI in gaming for many years. The physics was also a major step forward for gaming, particularly the sophisticated particle effects for its time (including for individual drops of rain) and the way objects moved.
The game earned both critical and commercial acclaim upon release, with the highest sales and review scores in the series. However, the game's convoluted story, excessive use of Codec conversations and new protagonist Raiden was criticized by a number of fans, temporarily relegating him to a joke character (even with Kojima himself) until his popular transformation in Metal Gear Solid 4.
Despite the controversy surrounding the unexpected bait-and-switch and convoluted storyline at the time, Sons of Liberty is today seen as a landmark title in the history of video games. It is considered the first truly postmodern video game, is frequently cited as a primary example of artistic expression in video games, and is generally considered one of the most influential games of the past decade, both for its artistic influence on later video game storylines (most notably Eternal Darkness, Killer7, Portal, and especially BioShock, which even featured a very similar plot twist) as well as its influence on the gameplay mechanics of many action games since."
www.giantbomb.com/metal-gear-... - Ігри
Rose was annoying on the first run but on the replays I didn't mind her. Once you see the work as a whole, Rosemary really comes together stronger.
She also makes a lot more sense when I think about the women I've been with
MGS V was my first game when I got it free with PS Plus. Last year I picked up the MGS HD collection for the Xbox 360 and played MGS 2 first. While playing it I thought that Jack and Rose’s conversations were tragic reminders of what war does to a person, and I think they’re interesting. Raiden not remembering their anniversary and the talk about his room were very meaningful to me
Nice to see people picking it up for the first time all these years later. Enjoy😏
Agreed! When I first played MGS2 as a 10 year old I didn't get it. But after I grew up and had experience in adult relationships it was a very grounded and realistic dialogue between the two. Add in Jack's past trauma and it really hits home. I hope you enjoyed the MGS games. Curious if you've played MGS1? It's quite a ride as well.
@@OuterHeaven210 yeah I’ve gone back and played all the main series games except for MGS 4 because I don’t own a PS3
@William Dunbar Year late, but MGS4 is easily playable on PC with RPCS3.
First played MGS2 when I was 15, hated Rose. Playing MGS2 again as a married father of two: Raiden and Rose’s story became one of my favourite parts of the game.
“Offspring”
@Life Is Peachy nigga what
Poetry in Motion.
@@wert1897 🤣
Because you built up a tolerance for nagging
I remember constantly Saving the game during every other area so that I could hear another story development between the two
I only beat MGS2 like a week or so ago but I did the same thing, maybe it's because I wasn't there when the game came out but the Raiden switch made me fall in love with the series way more than MGS1 did even though it's also a great game.
This is a great take on Rosemary’s purpose in MGS2. I didn’t really have a problem with her character because she sheds light on why Jack is the way he is and gives insight to part of his struggles. I am one of the few that didn’t have an issue with the “bait and switch” of Raiden or Snake. Great content and keep up the good work.
Glad to see someone like me in here😩 maybe I’m one of those “way too chill for their own good” typa people but I honestly really enjoyed the realistic-ness of their “soap-opera” codec calls and their relationship as a whole. Not to be sexist but you can always tell the ones who absolutely shit bag of her are some 14yo rising only player or some 35yo man baby who grew up with the game hating her and just never let it go. I completely understand the people who think she’s too annoying or just don’t like her, but man at least try to see her for what she is- as she says a few times in the game..
I really didn't pay enough attention to their relationship in my playthrough. After hearing those codec calls, it all felt so real, its heartbreaking. I've had relationships that bad. This is some good ass writing.
I think she serves as the mouth piece for Kojima directly to us (the player). Especially in the conversation where she’s revealed as a spy. i.e. “The person you loved (Snake) was just a character.”
All characters in a literary work serves as mouthpieces for the writer. When you realize this everything changes
@@LordMarlle "a game by hideo kojima" woah 😯
She's supposed to be your wife.
He is not at all narcissistic. He's conflict avoidant. He avoids the truth because it brings him pain. He wanted to avoid his traumatic memories as a child soldier because it's easier. It has nothing to do with his ego, he was just trying to protect himself. I have a lot of empathy for Raiden trying to avoid his problems. Nobody likes writhing in pain. He merely wants to forget to be happier. It's not a story of narcissism, it's a story about accepting your past but still moving past it to forge your own identity. He remembers what happens but he doesn't let it define him.
Narcissism can mean more than an inflation of ego or a focus on one's own attributes; in Raiden's case, a lot of his avoidance also led to him not truly seeing Rose, choosing to accept a lie because it would make him feel safer and leave Rose as nothing more than an illusion, rather than face the facts of what she really is and who he really is in some attempt to "protect her." It's narcissism in the sense that he's trying to protect himself. That's not a demonization of Raiden; as the video and the game really points out, we all do this so that we can have some semblance of self and not lose ourselves. We create convenient truths to keep ourselves safe. His narcissism is a byproduct of his childhood under Solidus' direction, as well as the mindset of the American people. The happiness at the end is ultimately Raiden choosing to see rhe real Rose, and also to see the real him. He wants to forget, but like Rose wanted him to know, she's willing to accept the good and the bad of him, because that's what you do for someone you love.
@@theyellowlurker5201 I guess it would be more accurate to say he's egocentric/self-absorbed/selfish. I don't know of narcissism is the right word because it implies he is full of himself, I haven't seen narcissism used in other contexts besides to have an inflated sense of self worth. Perhaps it is my own bad, because I do agree with what you said and the game's message to me was life-changing I think it's the best game Kojima has ever made and everyone should play it. I related to Raiden a lot more than any Snake. I think most people are like Raiden and constantly trying to outrun their own problems.
@jackflynn412 I think Narcissim as a mental diagnosis, in the modern context, kind of can imply a number of different connotations. I think both your verbiage and it can work, personally, just because it reaches rhe same conclusion in describing Raiden, and by extension, us. That being said, I don't think it's something to feel fault over, I think if anything it feeds more into the themes.
I actually just beat this game for the first time like 3 days ago, and I'm still blown away at how deep and mature the story really is and how it gets, not just from a military and wartime angle, but just everyday life. Beautiful game, easily on par with SH2 for my favorite games.
I was just thinking about how Rosemary is as much the protagonist as Raiden in MGS2. Good job Snake, I’m gonna enjoy this 👍
Puriste
Lol she is not the definition of protagonist but support character. But heu that’s just me
It’s subtle, but MGS2 is really a love story..
Between Raiden and Lobster🦞 Woo-Hoo!
I played this game recently, and I really thought the April 30th date was based on the birthdate I put in. Only to find out that the date actually plays a key role into the game’s storyline.
That must have made the first playthrough so much more engaging, like an unintentional holy shit moment right out of the box.
@@RemnantCult Metal Gear ⚙️ = One of the six infinity games.
That’s crazy.
@@darkgreenrifleman4871 which other games would you have in this list?
Metal Gear Solid, Zelda Ocarina of Time, Red Dead Redemption, Metriod Prime, Halo, Assasin's Creed.
Games where the nuanced brilliance is unlimited
I hate nothing about MGS2 - I f**king LOVE It. Sons of Liberty has by far the best gameplay in the entire series! It’s my second favourite after MGS1 (Best story and best voice acting).
Hideo was fighting against simps before the term was even coined.
As a kid, getting the game first day, the story went over my head for many years. I hated Rose but at the same time she was there to also give more story about Raiden outside of the mission. I felt for her in mgs4 because I assumed they would have a somewhat happy ending. But I always do love a story where someone is assigned to fall in love with someone or for some kind of goal then the love becomes real. I’m just a sucker like that. Last minute thought it’s the kind of relationship that Snake and Hal had’ “can love bloom on the battlefield?” They truly found themselves while on this battlefield.
Otacon thought about Sniper Wolf when he asked that.
Jack has PTS. He’s not annoyed he’s unable to express PTS. There’s nothing off about focusing on a mission. (Glad you pointed it out). It is one of the pieces I like about MGS2.
It kind of gets retconned later in the series but I love how MGS2 addresses PTSD.
Could you expand on your thought on how it’s retconned? I forgot a lot and it’s a very complex story.
@@TacticsTechniquesandProcedures I'm not sure what they mean either, idk if it's specifically meant to be PTSD but Raiden's past is always haunting him even when he's trying to move on like he is in MGR
@@stormysoup1083 mgr aint canon
@@Chillgamesh I think it was never made clear whether or not it was canon.
This was a superb video, but that makes the problem with it so much worse; the abuse of the word “narcissist”. Raiden is not a narcissist. I’d argue he isn’t even narcissistic. He isn’t entitled or envious, he doesn’t seek attention or validation, he doesn’t even come across as especially arrogant or grandiose. It's a really lazy use of a term used to describe a pathology. If anything, given the coldness and emptiness that was accurately covered, Raiden is a Schizoid.
I also wonder why Raiden is described as a narcissist.
In short he's psycho
When ai rose and Campbell say jack is an example of the people needing protection people forget one thing. We protect the valuable, we protect what we love. Raiden is upset by this statement bc it implies there are people not worth protecting. It's not that there are people who don't need protecting, as our egos as players immediately beLIEve.
I'm not sure if i can come up with the words to explain this,
But this game feels a lot like Silent Hill 2 rather than Metal Gear 2 after understanding it a litter better.
They're character studies of deeply troubled men who refuse to recognize their past and their mistakes which largely revolve around the idealized image of a female partner they've constructed for themselves.
@@BobLogical THIS
Ironic how I just finished this and began playing silent hill 2. This is just a stealthy military silent hill 2 of horrific psychological insanity with similar themes of identity issues, toxic false relationships, holding on to what's dead and realizing it was you and in your head all along. Like Raiden loving rosemary is James loving Mary while finding out it was just him.
Mgs2 was my first. I had a friend with me who told me some things from 1 when they came up but honestly I was drawn into the game inspite of my incomplete context. Infact I feel the experience was better now knowing. The legend of solid snake was built up and me as the player really wanted to match the idea. I fell for the game hook line and sinker. I attached myself to Jack more than I did with Snake. I really wanted his relationship to work and was hurt when Jack was hurt. I honestly felt everything Jack did was what I'd do. So when Rose lashes out at our collective blindness I felt it hard. In replaying it I can't get into character as much as I did in my first run. It's hard when you have complete context to sperate yourself from it. It's truly fascinating. It's part of the reason I like playing game series from the middle first. So much history left spoken but not known. I played Mass Effect 2 without playing 1 and I feel it's the same as it was with the legend of Snake and the legend of Shepard. So much spoken but no context. The mental image is probably better than the actual person.
Reality's no match for the legend, a point which is explicitly made in every metal gear game
i always liked rose thought she played her role well and the extra content really made me like her saving just to hear the extra conversations
The last mg ray you fight is R05E
Rose was very important to the player. Raiden was sort of a meta stand-in for the player like Venom, and the relationship cultivated with her compliments the dog tags received at the end, or 4th-wall mirror break address.
Turns out she was real, insofar as the player willing her into existence at the end, the way the player willed Big Boss into existence in V.
What a beautiful love story between two flawed individuals growing past themselves to love eachother
I sure hope a certain sequal doesn't tactically nuke all their character development from orbit for the sake of narrative contrivance, mellowdrama and the directors ever growing resentment of this franchise!
I've always liked Rose as a view into Raiden's life outside the mission. While Solid Snake was an escapist fantasy character, giving a light amount of backdrop outside his military career (his home in Alaska) his character is made up through the experiences and trials he faces in the "game world" created for us. Raiden meanwhile is sent to emulate this development, however because Raiden is more of an reflection of the player, it's cool to see bits of his real life bleed into this simulation. It helps ground Raiden as a character and make the plant feel much more bizarre as a result.
While I do think that Rose’s dialogue for the first several calls can get extremely annoying over time, I think as soon as it gets to the point where it delves into the actual structure of their relationship, she becomes one of the best supporting characters in the franchise
appreciate the work you put into these, keep it up!
I'm so glad you kept their last scene before credits, truly MGS2 is the best one!
I love that your 'brief videos' are 30 minutes!
Been binging yer vids since I found 'em. Solid work Boss!
Amazing work as always, Jorin!
Hearing you say "bitch" is hilarious. I love it
I enjoyed the chats with Rose way more than Para-Medic talking about movies
I remember calling paramedic to specifically hear all the movie stuff lol.same for sigint
@@OuterHeaven210 It bored me. At least with Rose there was a connection between her and Raiden, character development and it shed some light on their relationship.
I couldn't care less about Para-Medics taste in cinema.
@@theunknownuser9609 fair enough. Calling Rose to me was like calling my needy gf from high school.
@@OuterHeaven210 Well... Rose is more real.
Para-Medic is more likable because she's a caricature. Like an anime girl. Doesn't act like a real person.
At least my ears were intact after a Para-medic talk
Thanks Boss! Would love a character deep dive on each MGS character.
A quick aside raidens voice actor really did an amazing job with the material he was given
Before watching, I just wanna say thank you for doing this, been dying to see your take.
I've been waiting for this!
Great video and content. Definitely gonna subscribe!
another excellent video. keep em coming boss
interesting. glad to see you still making MGS vids on less covered stuff ^_^
Great video, you know what you’re doing !
After playing MGRR I thought Rose just evaporated or something, becuase the first time I played the game I never minded the changes and the new characters, but I was always confused, if you were ever talking to Rose during the CODEC calls or what, so the end was confusing to me, but I think I get it, the Colonel was right, he was always talking to himself, literally, no Rose, no Roy, only Raiden's idea of who those people are and a reflection of himself too, so yeah it gives a big impact seeing the actual woman walking towards Raiden which still makes you think, yeah this is "Rose" but even though you are seeing a person in the flesh, Rose was still a fake and it feels he's practically meeting her for the first time, again, curiosly on the same day as they "met" 2 years prior and man it really hits you when you get it, he was all this time just having a conflict with himself and how he approach other's feelings besides just his, and now he's in a way starting with a clean slate with this new woman, it's just wow!
we missed you :D
Cool video as usual, it always makes me see the characters/story form another angle, peeling another layer of this deep story
Great video!
Man this was brilliant!
Yeees! I missed you boss! Hyped for this vid :]]
I appreciate the work you put in to these videos. You often make thought provoking points. I do however think you'd break your back while bending over backwards to defend every single aspect of the MGS series.
His thoughts are usually "hideo kojima is a god" with not many variations
"This is a brief video..." - Futurasound Productions
We need more bro this is fantastic bro thank you for my MGSV stuff more please
Great video, Boss.
I played MGS2 recently and really liked her character. I liked the little conversations betweeen save points.
After watching your videos and then seeing other peoples... This channel is just the best MGS analysis i have ever seen.
Always thought it was incredibly selfish and needlessly cruel to say Raiden had an "empty heart" just because he had a minimalist design to his room. FFS, maybe that's just what he prefers, she's condemning him for his feng shue.
Yeah he "raised a hand to her" though after she "forced her way in" this is violent escalation with a person you know is trained to respond to violence with violence.
And entering one's room in intimate so if someone does this without the other person's consent, it's a privacy violation as well.
This is wild. I had no idea Raiden was a domestic abuser. Also she said “that was the first time you raised your hand to me…” implying that was the first and there were more subsequently.
His head is all fucked up, being a abused and traumatized child soldier will do that to you.
Not necessarily
Not all soldiers are women beaters, but not all women are innocent
@@terryrichmond4723 raiden wasnt a soldier when that happened. Rose is innocent. Why did you wrote that comment
@@cumcer6140 the same reason you responded to my comment. Women are abusers more so than men and less reported
BRILLIANT ESSAY!!!!
Kojima revolutionised the espionage game mgs was like nothing anyone else had made
Glad to be watching this on April 30th
I liked Rose she served an important purpose she was the connection to humanity and away from war.....she called him Jack when everybody kept saying Raiden like you have a life outside of this....
Jorin Lee, when is Part 2 of MGS2 summary droppin?
If your next video is What Happens In Mgs2 Part 2 The Plant then it's gonna be absolutely insane.
Also fuck, listening to these conversations between Rose and Jack are hitting a little too close to home
Saw the picture “rosemary” and you have my attention
0:28 "this is a brief video" lol
You make good points and I honestly don't mind her. In fact, I find her relationship with Jack interesting, because it's kinda toxic when you think about it. She has a thing for trying to manipulate and control him in certain ways. Sure, she comes clean about it to him, but it still shows a side to her that makes the relationship interesting and worrying.
5:37 always loved that little grown
(started this at work, had to revisit after work, laughed at the title change...)
i played this game heaps back in the day i didn't remember a lot of these
So much feels 😢
Once again JORIN you showcase your skills as a future writer for MGS. I hope you give it a shot!💯❤
Brilliant video! Rose just became beautiful🌹
Ok, you've convinced me
6:17 I thought the one on codec being an AI all along was a way to explain her bizarre behavior. We probably only saw the real Rose at the end of the game in NYC. No real person would want to talk about relationship stuff while their partner is defusing a bomb, etc. Even at 23:13 he says the woman he knew isn't the one he's talking to right now. That works in the context of her being a spy, but it's even more relevant in the context of this training exercise.
My ex would want to talk about relationship stuff while I'm defusing a bomb. no joke.
@@Veins1
LOL!!
@@Veins1 let me guess.... she was the one who planted the bomb right?? 😆
Love the video but what threw me off was the switch from ps2 to hd remaster font lol
Tbh I wish kojima kept his original idea for rose , a nano machine hallucination it would have made the s3 project bit more overbearing
He doesn't miss!
fucking love your channel
I didn't get to enjoy MGS2 and I was never more excited to ever play a game. I waited years for this game, bought every magazine to learn more about this game, played the demo hundreds of times, and took the day off work when it came out.
I thought the Raiden part was going to end and I could be Snake again. I didn't enjoy being Raiden and just wanted his part to be over. This game soured me on the franchise and I didn't even play MGS3 till last year.
Well, was it amazing? MGS Snake 🐍 Eater? When you played it.
While I don't really share your fascination with Rosemary, This video was a great reminder of the depth of the genius of Hideo Kojima's brain.
Just finished MGS2 and I don't really hate or dislike her but I found her extremely confusing
I got into the game knowing about the AI Codecs but I'm now very unsure if Rose was an AI the whole time, if she was only an AI at the end, or if her and the AI were going back and forth unbeknownst even to her. Imo she's all over the place in this aspect but in a way that's interesting because the thing is the stuff she talks about the Codecs are most definitely real and maybe how Rose feels, how Raiden feels and how Raiden thinks she feels, and idk if I prefer the codecs being Rose getting at a breaking point during this mission or if it was the AI having collected data on both Raiden and Rose and are saying things that have been unsaid for a while to use as another means to keep pushing Raiden
I have that same confusion, and this video didn't clarify it for me 😂
FP, for someone like myself who isn't familiar with all the ins and outs of mgsv, what is it that Big Boss's troops do besides being present at mother base? It seems like Big Boss (aka Venom) is the one doing all the missions, so it seems to beg the question to someone like me "why even have and recruit troops at all?"
You have missions you can send soldiers on, they're in the iDroid. Forget where though.
Should've released this on April 30th
This is an amazing one, but it doesn't change the fact that her voice makes my skin crawl.
19:17. Britain and other former European empires are just as guilty of this as the US is. We forget the horrible things done to other peoples in our empire. And it makes me sad as Brit to witness this first hand!!
I haven't watched the video yet, but I noticed that everytime you release a video, you change the title after a while, why do you do that?
I didn't hate mgs2 at all, it's the game I've played second most all time, right behind mgs
What is the intro song to this video!?
It's not that i disliked rose, but her constant whining and talking about their relationship problems in a middle of a life and death situation is definitely not the best way for raiden to complete his mission, not to mention that emotionally disturbs raiden, he already have enough to worry about (bomb defusing, terrorists everywhere, the dead cell to deal with, and also that there's a nuclear threat, dealing with metal gears, and so on) to survive
And vamp trying to suck his blood
half this video seems half like amvlike homage for extra NYC scenes during the rose and raiden dialog.
One thing I haven’t really heard people talk about is what Raiden can say during codec calls and how misogynistic and weird he is towards rosemary or Olga when he’s on a call.
How did Campbell allowed this, I wonder? You have to believe he was tapping their conversations. Rose was laying it on thick with the drama on a life or death mission. Lol
"I have some things I want to keep to myself " ;)
I LOVE ROSEMARY. She's both graceful, sexy and beutiful. I'm glad she had such an impact on the games story.
"Sexy" nope.
When you watch and fully understand MGS and you will understand that Kojima has been warning us about America for years.
I was never bothered by the bait and switch with Raiden and Snake, was my first Metal gear game so as a new player to the franchise this action was lost on me so I enjoyed the game regardless. Rose less so, she made me not want to save as she constantly pulled me from the "game" part of the game, as in I am saving the game because I need to stop playing, usually this instance, I physically don't have the time to listen to her go on about her complaints. Which is all not to say she wasn't important, she fleshed out Raiden really well and characterized him far more than our gameplay as Raiden did while also making good commentary about relationships. I personally would have liked that she be an extension of the patriots AI, something Raiden was conditioned to believe was real, hell when I first beat the game the biggest surprise to me was seeing her physically there at the end.
I didn't even remember she was in Guns of the Patriots at first until I was writing this comment, and even then her and their child didn't seem important in the grand scheme of things with Revengence having nothing to do with her.
I did play the original so I did care about Snake. However the Raiden thing didn't bother me at all. And because of that 1st playthrough in 2001 was like how people talk the game up now.
I was absolutely floored in 2001 and had no idea what was going on and why people didn't care for the game. It was so mind-blowing and good. It seriously set me at odds with a lot of opinions. Good to know people are not starting to realize what was really good on.
As a kid I was impressed with drama and romance really is ... the bomb shell was worth the drama ...
the meme of men are happy with just a chair and a bed.
Is…is Raiden Gray Fox’s “Phantom”? Like “Ahab”
500!!!!!
mgs: raiden is tormented by his pain 😭
mgr: raiden is a masochist 😈
Didn't this title used to be different? Or is that the Patriots changing digital information?
I was never annoyed by her