This video is disingenuous at least and misleading at worst. The ballistics tables do not show a negligible difference in performance at the top end of these rounds. It’s quite clear that which rounds edge the others out. 357sig can put up numbers inside 10mm and 357 mag territory. 9mm is argued only in the sense of practicality. With a well placed shot it is enough to stop would be attackers. It’s cheaper than the rest to shoot and it’s easier to manage in similar sized pistols. It is not as powerful as any other round mentioned in this video. 9mm is a fine round. 45acp is a fine round. The fact is tho that 357sig is superior to 40sw and 40sw is superior to both 9mm and 45acp. The rest is bs. You literally shot the 40 better in this video and didn’t even mention it as it went against your prediction haha.
Interesting analysis. Used a 1911A1 in 45 Auto for 3 years in S.E. Asia with 230gr G.I. ball ammo with excellent results in actual close quarters combat. Eight years later, I was a peace officer carrying a S&W mod 28 357mag revolver. Was involved in three shootings. I walked away from them. As a patrol officer for 4 days a week, and armorer for the 5th day, I worked on the department weapons. Later, an additional assignment, I ran the officer involved shootings team. There,I investigated, studied, and reported to the chief of police on these shootings. And, of course, I was not approached by command when they decided to switch to autoloader pistols. The PD chose the Beretta 92F 9mm. 😒 Our rate of fire/effective hits rose from 1.3 rounds expended with the .357mag, to 4.8 rounds with the 9mm. I was not surprised. So, looking back to the many single hits from the 1911A1 I used where highly motivated and professional NVA soldiers fell to the 45 Auto. And the ARVN troops I fought with using 9mm pistols firing multiple times in combat, I'm relatively confident in comparing these results with that in the PD's choice of the 9mm. In exchange of rounds in close combat with handguns, the 9mm is inferior to larger, more powerful rounds. This is solely based upon personal experience, and statistical analysis of shootings of police officers against armed criminals within the agency I was employed. So do I now, long retired, have large caliber revolvers personality? Yes, several. And do I own any autoloader pistols? Yes, two. Both 1911A1 in 45 Auto. Any polymer 9mm's in my safe? Nope. Not a single one. I personality will only use what I know what is effective, and discard which is not. Now all you younger shooters, who only punch paper and gelatin, with no combat experience, can begin the howls of declaring me a Fudd. Fine. Call me whatever you like. Won't phase me a bit. 😏
I'm just a target shooter and not overly good, I've got a Beretta 92F, a CZ preB , and a Ruger 1911. I'm more accurate with the 1911, than the other 2 despite the bigger recoil. Why? Because of the trigger pull, the 1911 is so much better imo.
@@johnod1955 You bet! The 1911's trigger design is pure genius! Back in the 80's and 90's, I operated a gunsmith business on the side. I was building 3 to 4 custom 1911's a month. I'd guarantee that they'd hand cycle a full mag of empties or no charge. I really believe that the 1911 design is as good as it gets.🙂
I switched from 9mm to 45acp last year and I have no regrets. I was actually surprised at the recoil impulse of the 45 - it isn't so much snappy as much as it pushes your gun back. I like it
Well... we aren't using ball ammo for self-defense. The 9mm velocity, ability for quick follow-ups, and capacity far outweigh any 45acp benefits in self-defense or combat period!
I agree. The gel test energy dump in the first 6" is very different. They might all stop at the same point, but if the caliber has more energy when it hits the target and stops at the same place, it has to transfer more energy in a smaller distance.
@literallynobody1515 logical fallacy. It's cost prohibitive for departments to adopt over conventional hollow points. When you're ordering ammo in the millions of cartridges, you can see where the budget can get bloated. Personally I'm not a fan of the Civil defense loadings as I prefer to have more penetration with a projectile that's retained weight. The extreme defender, however, is my preferred choice in carry ammo.
Indeed. It's odd that the sheriff says they're all very similar. The 45 ACP gel shot is cut off at the bottom, and in spite of that it still dominates the others, quite noticeably.
@@bangsteellongrangeshooting3413 the wound cavity was (slightly) larger but penetrated less than some and a little more than others. Wasn’t cut off enough to see the results.
I have carried the 10mm , 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm professionally in that order. 10mm is a totally different beast when loaded properly…. The load we used was basically a 40 S&W. I love each round. I have found that apples to apples the 40 performs better than 45 or 9. Same bullet equal (ish) barrel lengths. Both the 9 and the 45 were designed at military FMJ bullets. The 46 is often not moving fast enough to expand the hp. The 9 often has a smallish hp that gets clogged.The 40 was designed as a police round. The 40 recoil is sharper than either 45 or 9 and does give some shooters fits and can definitely cause a flinch. This debate will never end😂
Scientical the 40S&W hasnt much more recoil than 9mm but the 45 has much more. Watch the video "What caliber is harder to control - 9, 40, or 45?" Its very interesting , no waste of time.
I'm pretty sure Paul Harrell settled this question some years ago. The .40 S&W is, all other things being equal such as manufacturer and bullet construction, is superior based on meat target performance. Unless you don't like the .40. Then "you be the judge". That's why I rotate between 9, .40, and .357 Sig. I'm confident in all three and base my carry decision on other factors besides caliber alone. Example, the .357 Sig is an "outside" caliber. Because it's LOUD.
@@bobby9930 The meat target will give you a ballpark idea of how your gun/ammo will perform if you are ever attacked by something other than a block of jello. 🤔
@@kevingoebel170 No, actually it won't. It's just something entertaining, that looks cool for the gun magazine and internet crowd, that have no understanding of what reproducible testing means, and it's not random groceries... Many of that crowd still believe in the fictional books and gun magazine articles on "street performance" from the 1990's. Meanwhile, the financially driven, gunwriter fueled distrust of gelatin continues. Unfortunately for them and their boutique ammunition company interests, properly prepared porcine gelatin testing, through various common barriers, has been proven to correlate very well to field results for more than 30 years. Which is why we have so many great choices in self defense ammo today, from the major manufacturers who test to it. But continue to believe in fairy tales if you choose.
The standards for peace officer firearms qualifications should be much higher than what they are! If a woman or man can’t handle a cartridge like a 40 or 45 they should look for another job. The departments shouldn’t accommodate incompetent people with watered down cartridges.
In the 1980s, I was in the first Academy class that went to 9 mm. The department had 38 caliber at that time. In the 90s we adopted the 40 caliber. Since I’ve retired, they’ve gone back to 9 mm because of the beta males and females. Sad.
The old adage is still true: variety is the spice of life! Having a variety of 'mouths to feed' gives one a sense of security. Plus, whenever one caliber ammo is on sale, it makes it easier to stock up.
Thank you for your insight! Unfortunately people get hung up on caliber as if it affects performance, when it boils down to the performer, as you so well stated. Thanks again for posting. 😊
Listen, I'm a 9mm guy, but to say that 45acp performs worse on a person than 9mm is simply not true. With your logic you should just carry a 22LR gun with you because caliber doesn't affect performance
@@waholoopesorry74 I carry 9mm too. Just agreeing with the point that ballistically there isn't a great difference in defensive rounds if you get proper ammo. Shot placement is what's more significant.
Retired LEO large urban agency in SE Texas. We were never issued sidearms. When I started in 1977, we predominantly carried .38/.357. I moved onto .45 ACP in Colt 1911 and Sig Sauer P220. For many years, the department required a .40 caliber from a specified brand name list. If an officer purchased a new handgun it had to be in 40 Caliber. I ended half my career with .40 S&W in a third generation S&W. The department has reverted to allowing officers to purchase from a brand name list but any of the popular pistol cartridges...9MM...40 cal...45 ACP. Carry what you wish...who cares, really ??
Ballistic gelatin is only an aporiximation of SOFT human body tissue. It is designed to achieve maximum expansion out of hollow point bullets, not to equate to a clothed human body. Put some denim layers in front of some wood or particle board to approximate clothing and ribs and try your gelatin tests again. You will see the .45 acp and the .40 S&W both significantly out perform the 9mm. Physics will not be denied. Heavier bullets (180 grain bullets moving at 950 - 1,000 fps) will penetrate barriers like clothing and bones better than lighter bullets (147 grain bullets moving at 1,100 - 1,200 fps). That said, most people shoot a 9mm more accurately than a .40 and shot placement is still king. Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot "effectively" rather than the one you shoot "the best" afterall, we would all shoot .22 lr "the best".
“Lighter” Your comparison fails to take into account sectional density. 9mm 147gr and .40 180 gr have near identical sectional densities and similar momentum and energy values based on your numbers. There’s no significant difference in this barrier performance scenario you’re talking about.
Excellent points as I predicted. While I enjoy shooting many calibers, my EDC is carrying 9mm (Federal HST 147gr, standard pressure) for many reasons mentioned, including effectiveness, reliability & capacity. I train & practice primarily with 9mm.
As a retired Law enforcement, i agree the best firearm is the one in your hand. I started my career with .38 special and ended with .40 in between we had 9mm and 357 sig. Of all of these i really liked my glock 19 it fit my hand perfectly and was comfortable to shoot. My go to conceal carry is a Glock 43x. I also agree that you should use the caliber you are most comfortable using.
Speaking for myself, at well over 70 yrs old , and with arthritic hands I don’t need the recoil of a .40 , plus I can pack a much smaller 9mm that weighs less with far more ammo . Not that I think I’d ever need it . At my age , the last thing I want is to be involved in a firefight.
I'm pushing 70 myself, with some arthritis starting up in my hands as well. I get how the .40 recoil might become hard on the hands, especially after a long shooting session, but then it would seem to make more sense to go to a HEAVIER gun chambered in 9mm, not a smaller gun, if recoil is an issue. This is why I usually practice with and carry my Beretta 92, rather than my Ruger LC9.
A lot of 45 studs from the past, like Ken Hackathorn, say the same thing. Their arthritis has them reaching for the 9. They aren't wimps, but they have new limitations.
The funny thing about that movie was that Harry makes it clear that shooting reduced loads makes him more accurate. So to some extent he liked the 44 special.
@@georgegravette1132 Yeah exactly , here recently I’ve taken to packin a 1911 in 9 mm . Or a Sig 365 with a 12 RD mag and 147 gr ammo . I still can’t shoot more than around 50 rounds on any given day , then I’m pretty much done for a week till some of the swelling goes down . Lol believe it or not , a 1911 in .45 with critical defense ammo isn’t half bad for recoil , but I can’t afford to shoot it more than once in a blue moon .
@@georgegravette1132 I would HIGHLY recommend you switch to something in 32acp. Like the Beretta Model 81 Cheetah. You're smart enough to understand that heavier gun and lighter round = better shooting experience. The Cheetah is still small and lightweight enough to carry, it'll be somewhere between your Ruger LC9 and Beretta 92 dimensionally speaking, but the recoil will be lower than either. If you're worried about the terminal ballistics of 32acp, don't. Someday in the future many years from now, people will realize that bigger calibers are a fad. In the end, most calibers work just fine, shot placement is all that really matters. 32acp was used in WW1 and WW2 to kill countless people, and all they used back then was FMJ.
As the resident of a mag restriction state, we use the largest caliber that gets to 10 rounds per magazine. With artificial limitations on capacity, add power.
.357 Sig, 9MM, 10MM, .45 ACP for police or EDC like you say seem to have similar capabilities that I have seen. I'm 69 and grew up around WW1 & WW2 combat veterans and the last of the born in the 1800's Cowboys. They considered anything less than the .45 Long Colt pistol or .30-06 rifle to be substandard. My Dad was a friend of Elmer Keith and Mr. Keith's favorite guide Erv Malnrich so I basically grew up with and using the .44 Magnum single action for everything. My Dad, a Highland Scotsman came to the US after WW2 came from a line of Ghillies and Snipers. Classical shooting positions for rifle and pistol was absolutely mandatory. Safety was absolutely mandatory. So up until about 15 ago that was what I carried. No problems with accuracy and penetration noted. Was great if you don't mind Howitzer size and weight weapons. Today being considered old by bubble gum chewing latte swilling college grads I have started to carry a Sig P365 and I'm not sorry. Less weight and fairly accurate within combat ranges. Just found your Channel and I'm now subscribed. Keep doing what you're doing.
Bullet tech today is way better than in the past so the 9mm of yesterday is not the same as the 9mm of today. This is not the time of the 1986 Miami shootout. So 9mm is very effective given more modern bullets. Yes folks can control 9mm better than .40Smith, .45ACP, 10mm larger major calibers. Folks will do better with lower recoiling minor calibers like .380ACP, 9mm, and .38Spl. and smaller size pistols like sub compacts. However if the pistol size gets too small like with micros then there is more recoil again. Personally like you I started with .45ACP so I am used to heavy recoil and most everything else standard pressure calibers is lighter recoiling by comparison. I won't use anything below .380ACP in the mouse calibers for defense unless that was all I had. Because by Ellifritz real world shooting data they fail to stop threats at much higher rates than standard calibers .380ACP and above. Yes by Ellifritz data and your gelatin photo, all standard pressure calibers stop threats at almost the same rate. I agree. Use the gun regardless of caliber you are most comfortable shooting and most accurate with. You are spot on with the caliber debate being over.👍👍👍👍
The answer is 10mm especially if your attacker is covered in fur, if you can handle the recoil, they're making better capacity for them now too in reliable and trusted brands. For everything else get 9mm because the ammo is cheapest in AN effective caliber, more ammo, more training, more rounds down range, more range time. Once you "master" 9mm, consider .357 sig for your carry, better temporary and permanent wound cavity, if you get really good with that consider 10mm for even better ballistics, and the ability to take down a bear if need be. Overall it is mostly preference, and ability, start with 9mm in a compact (subcompacts aren't worth it IMO, harder to control for not much added concealment), carry daily, it's only effective if it's on your person. The gun you have is the best gun for you.
The recoil might have been “much” more out of the 40 but i couldnt see it! I zoomed in at the branches behind you in the little trees on both pistols and used them to gauge the muzzle rise and they were both pretty much identical.
Retired myself and watched the whole video. I'm also an FFL. So I guess I'm a "gun nut". When you brought out the SA35, you got a subscriber. I got mine from the factory when they were first introduced. I got a connection. Man I love that gun. So smooth. John Browning knew what he was doing. Even though it was completed after he went north.
So far, I have about 400 rounds thru mine. A couple of failure to ejects, but I have found I have a tendency to "ride the slide" with my support thumb without realizing it. So far, I'm pretty happy. Another few hundred rounds and I'll get with my firearms guys and run a qual with it and see how it goes.
From the video the recoil of the 40 S&W looks the same as 9mm. There is a very good video almost scientific "What caliber is harder to control - 9, 40, or 45?" There from a randsom rest you can see objectivly, that there isnt much recoil difference from 9mm to 40. This video is very good.
The reason why the FBI went to replace their 9mm handguns back in the 80’s with 10mm Auto relates back to the infamous 1986 Miami Dade Shooting. One of the agents managed to get a shot off with his 9mm handgun that hit one of the shooters through the arm and into his lung, stopping just short of the shooter’s heart. It was certainly a fatal wound, but it wasn’t an immediately fatal wound. The shooter managed to fight for a few more minutes, injuring and killing a few agents. This supposed lack of “stopping power” is why the FBI went with the 10mm before discovering that some agents couldn’t handle the 10mm, and we got the .40 as a result. But with the advancement of reloading technology, 9mm has closed the gap where it didn’t before in the 80’s. As a result, the FBI recently switched back to the 9mm. 9mm has less recoil than a .40 or 10mm, and it is also cheaper to shoot than those rounds. I carry a 10mm as my EDC, but I recognize that not everybody can handle the 10mm. For EDC in the city, you certainly will not be under-equipped carrying a 9mm. Now for woods defense, a 10mm is more appropriate.
Guess I was fortunate to learn how to manage .45 when I was a teenager from my grandpa. He was a WW2 Army vet and NHRA instructor until the 80s. .40 and 9mm are both easy for me with medium hands. I’ve done 3 gun with all three, competitive with any of them.
There's not much difference between a car that goes 140 MPH and one that does 155 MPH but one will win a race more than the other one. The difference in caliber and energy levels may not make a difference the majority of the time but it may in some cases.
Glock 22 was best duty weapon I carried. Started with the S&W 439 then to the 5904. Both were way too snappy for my liking. Once you master the Glock trigger reset it's a piece of cake to fire.
Don’t claim to be an expert but….imho aim is 90% and size and velocity of bullet is 10%. If you can shoot 45 or 40 and hit what you aim at -great. For the rest of us hit what you aim at. I also note that there will always be “new and better” calibers. It’s called marketing.
I think that we should have a pistol for each caliber. That way during hard times we can still find what ever ammo is still left. There are all great ammo! But, I'm a 40 cal guy. And if you like something other than 40 cal? Great! Just be good with it! And stock up!
More recoil means you need a heavier platform. I had a G20 that I hated. I thought the recoil was excessive using 180 ge/1200 fps ammo. When I run that exact same ammo through a 1911, the recoil is very similar to a 45 acp through a 1911.
Great video and channel but as others said, what caliber you pick means very little in the civilian realm. .380, 9mm, 45. You'll probably only need your gun once and in a hurry. No bad guy wants shot by any caliber. So reliability and comfort of the shooter is really all you should worry about when it comes to caliber.
Former NYPD LEO(Ret), and currently train LEOs that fail their yearly qualifications and the 9mm is pure garbage and an amateur round which is why they give it to LEOs and the military. I re-train daily active LEOs that fail their qualifications and 99% are carrying 9mm while the ones carrying 40s&w, 357Sig, 45ACP and even 10mm rarely come through my doors because they are people who actually take the time and improve themselves and their skills rather than "just get by" like the DEI hires. The 9mm is only popular because that's what the FBI said works the best....before that they said the 40S&W was the best, the 10mm before that, the 357Mag before that and the 38Spl before that! The problem is continually lowering standards to appease those who don't deserve the positions they are required to be placed in. Sadly Ive personally seen the 9mm fail numerous times, once I wish it did what people ignorantly believe it does, and the rest of the times Im happy the 9mm didn't work on the victims they were used on. Also qualified immunity is why 9mm works for LEOs because they just seem to mag dump perps anymore so even a .25 or 32 would work under those conditions. Is there a "perfect" round? Absolutely not but near perfect? Absolutely! The 357Mag, 357Sig, 40 S&W are almost perfect, when using properly loaded(SAAMI spec) ammo and competent training.
It's more about the person behind the gun but I carry a 40, lots of loads I can shoot and choices as well as 9 mm. 40 can be loaded to near 600 ft/lbs so energy it's no argument over a 9 mm, depends on what works for you, not so much caliber. a 40 equal to 9 mm is the watered down 165 grain hydra Shok, this load was for sensitive LEO and energy watered down to 352 ft/lbs, the same as a standard pressure 9 mm although most LEO could handle more potent loads. Even a 22 lr has lost no more gun fights then a 9 mm in research involving private citizens, it's about the person behind the gun, not necessarily the caliber. Claude Werner is the top defense researcher, in defense military and law enforcement can't be lumped in with the private citizen research, the research shows that it's not about caliber because of all the variables in a gun fight in Wich the out come has more to do with the person behind the gun then the caliber, think of it like UFC fighting sports, each guy has a skill, a smaller guy doesn't mean he will lose the fight because it's more about how he uses his skills, no gun or caliber has all the advantages with no disadvantages, its the yin and yang concept meaning for every strength is a weakness and for every weakness there is a strength. It's a trade off, for example maximum energy yet slower follow up shots, or energy of a round vs mag capacity of a round, small compact low capacity vs duty gun and high capacity, a revolver with low capacity you can draw lightning fast vs a high capacity gun you draw slower, a powerful gun with not optimum accuracy vs a lower power gun with mag dump accuracy and I can go on, even about the person behind the gun like their training and tactics matter more then the caliber, over all it's making fast accurate hits with no recoil small caliber or making that first shot count with high recoil large caliber, each can get the job done if shot placement is key, a drop in blood pressure hitting the heart, the cranial vault, spine, these are the goal. most private citizen defense situations the gun fight is only 3 seconds long, shorter then 7 yards and bad guys running despite your caliber or capacity. for every 22 lr gunfight a citizen loses you find just as many 9 mm who lost a gun fight Wich is proof that for a private citizen any caliber will work, you train though for it. the car wash gun fight proves a point about caliber where a guy with 22 magnum had a shoot out with a guy using a 9 mm and they both are dead. another example why it's not about caliber is Tim from Ohio being a police officer using over 14 rounds of 45 ACP and couldn't stop a sober suspect untill he with the last shots hit head and heart, shot placement is key to stopping someone, a guy with a 22 may have done better in that gun fight but it depends on the guy behind the gun not the caliber. in tims situation a private citizen doesn't have to chase and put cuffs on or even go look for a suspect, this is why a private citizen is way different then a police officer since they only have to get cover, defend and break contact, just the opposite of what military and police have to do, a private citizen needs less resources, that's why small calibers and low capacity guns get the job done, the gun fight is only a few seconds, thankfully almost always bad by guys run. we also have to look at why a private citizen loses a gunfight, often it's poor tactics and less about caliber, its the person behind the gun.
The caliber debate has been over for a very long time. 9mm wins every category that matters. Does that mean it's the right caliber for you? NO. For most people, the 9mm is the best mix of flat shooting, accuracy, capacity, recoil, price, availability, reliability, power, and choice... You can get 50 cal hand-cannons or 22 shorties or anything in between. And they all have pros and cons that may make them the right choice for you. There's two things to consider though: 1) the further you get away from the 9mm in size/power, the more specialized it is. A 22 isn't an everyday carry round unless you have a specific need. (arthritis or something) 2) the closer to a 9mm you get, the more you might as well get a 9mm. If you're going to carry a round with a similar performance that likely won't make a difference in the real world compared to a 9mm... Which is most rounds, 40, 45, 38, 380... The difference in performance is usually negligible and they cost more and are harder to find and either have poor penetration or more recoil or less capacity or less flat trajectory. With a bonus 3) use what you have. Don't spend hundreds on another gun unless yours really doesn't work for you. Better to spend that money on ammo and training. Caliber doesn't matter if you miss.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Too add, improvement in bullets. As for me what I do best is with a Beretta PX4 Storm full size in 40 using a 135g-140g jhp. Shoots great with manageable recoil. It’s a chunky piece, though and not my 1st choice for ccw. My 2 choice, I have a S&W MP Shield EZ in 9mm. For 3rd, I inherited an early 80s Model 66 2-1/2 bbl in 357. Great video, thanks.
Basically, I see you should shoot with the caliber that you can reliably handle, I know people who think a 9mm has much recoil, so maybe they should use a 380 acp. Personally, I shoot 10 mm and 40 S&W. With factory ammunition, I can barely tell the difference between the two. My handloads are a different story, though. And I'm sorry, I had to laugh at the comment that the 10mm recoils like a 41 magnum, it's my favorite caliber for handgun hunting and the 10mm with full power loads isn't even close to full power 41 magnum. 6.5" Ruger New Model Blackhawk flat-top 240gr wfn just under 1400 ft/sec. I also wanted to add that I have never liked the glock pistols. I'm a large man with big wide hands, and none of the glock grips are comfortable in my hands. Then, several years ago, I got the chance to shoot a polymer 80 in 9mm and was impressed with how easy it was to bring to the ready position, and it pointed naturally, more like my 1911s. So I ended up building three, a 9mm, 40, and a 10mm with quality barrels slides and triggers. And after a couple hundred rounds through each, they've had zero malfunctions. And now I've had a few thousand rounds though each, and I'm impressed with the reliability of them.
No debate on my end. I only have and carry one large semi auto, the Beretta .40 SW Storm. Not having a CC License, I open carry. Not in towns but when hiking and hunting in the back country. Having practiced extensively, the Beretta is very easy to control and accurate. For home / hiking defense, I have 14 rnd mags with standard 165 gr hollow points. For bear and cat country, I have 200 gr hard cast Buffalo Bore. Considering a smaller frame, shorter barrel , lite weight 9mm to carry in car.
Thank you for your 30 years of service Sir. From what I've been exposed to there is a jump, albeit small, between all pistol fired calibers except from .380 (9 mm short) to 9 mm. That jump in power/penetration is fairly large comparatively. My opine is this...if .22 lr is an effective caliber, then .380 is a more effective caliber. If .380 is an effective caliber, then 9mm is a more effective caliber. And so on and so forth. Find the caliber/pistol that you'll actually carry everyday all day due to your reasons. Caliber power/penetration is secondary to that. Again...just one person's opine. 🙃 edit: comment made before watching vid
Grain weight times velocity = power. Do the math! This debate was settled years ago & 9mm won. Oh unless your need more power than 10mm. Oh unless you carry a revolver than 357 mag, but if you can’t handle it then 38 special, unless you’re Dirty Harry then 44 mag. See.. Settled!
Hiring females and manlets as police officers is nothing but headaches. I say this as a 20 year (retired) officer that also was a firearms instructor for 12 years and instructor cadre at the the basic and advanced academy for 4 years.
I don’t disagree with your position that calibre is irrelevant in the common service pistol cartridges or calibers. That being the case, and as an LEO, I will take the CAPACITY over the caliber. My service pistols are the Glock 45 and 19. I like that 17 and 15 rounds of comfort! Thanks for the video.
Thanks so much for your info on this topic! Carry what you shoot well and have the gun you shoot well with you!! You mentioned that you are a .45 ACP fan and carrier but might switch to your SA-35 once you prove it. Just curious, do you currently carry a 1911 or something else in .45 ACP? Thanks again for your level headed and experienced I put to your videos! Keep up the great work!! You sir are the kind of friend I want to have!! 🇺🇸
I agree only shoot what you can accurately and consistently but to say there is negligible difference between 9mm and .45 acp is not accurate. Anyone shooting at a 8" round 1/4 inch thick AR500 plate suspended on a chain can see the noticeable difference in kinetic energy delivered with each shot.
1. his first shots He had a better group with the 40 number. 2 how does this guy expect anybody to take him seriously when he's totally biased.. What he should have did is had somebody who loves the 40 on this video to compete with him.
The debate is over: departments choose 9mm over .40 because some of their officers don't handle the .40 very well and everyone, therefore, must be issued the less capable caliber. By that logic we should all abandon 12 gauge for 20 gauge. An ER doctor who was in one of my classes carried a .45. I asked him why such a big caliber. He said, "Because we don't see many wounds in the ER from calibers that start with '4'. They usually go straight to the morgue. In the ER we get mostly .22's and 9mm's."
Actually with slugs, a pretty convincing argument could be made for a 20, or the original loads for the 12. I have some commercial slug load that hit the shoulder and roar worse than the 458.
Paul Harrell has an excellent comparison of 9 and 40 without 15 minutes of resume fatigue. Barriers, accuracy, speed, numbers, actual comparison, etc. check it out.
This seems needlessly critical. Anecdotal evidence is interesting and valuable to some in the evolution of carry calibers. No one forced you to watch. Though if they did, please let me know and I'll come rescue you.
Paul Harrell put this 9mm vs .40 S&W battle to rest a long time ago. But, in my humble opinion, arguing about pistol caliber is like debating who is the best sex partner to procreate with. It's just silly.
My department issued the Glock 23, .40 caliber, before my ‘97 retirement but I don’t recall anyone having trouble qualifying w/it that didn’t also have the same problem w/the issued thirty-eight revolver. I survived a 1974 gunfight w/my issued Colt Detective Spl 38. revolver and agree with carry what you shoot the best. Caliber wars are nonsense.
You and I seem to watch the same videos ! LOL. I really enjoy reading your comments. I take the advice of a man who has been on a 2 way firing range very seriously. Thank you Sir for sharing your real world experiences - and thank you Sir for your service.
@@c-jam6392Our department wanted a gun for both duty & off duty carry and the medium size G23 seemed to fill that role nicely. That said the requirement to carry off-duty was dropped shortly before I retired in ‘97.
I've been in the firearms industry for almost 40 years now, and I have noticed that the first thing that 9mm buyers do is hunt for the hottest +P load they can find. You need to do a side by side test pitting the hottest 9mm vs 155 gr 40 cal range ammo. Even then I think the 40 will still have the power advantage.
This guy is literally looking at a bigger bullet with bigger energy dump with his two eyes balls and still don't believe true/facts science...... UA-cam brainwashing is a hell of a drug
My brother in law is a retired sheriff deputy whose service time was when .40 S&W years as all the rage. He still swears by it. The irony for everyone who hated .40 was that it was the only round you could still buy online throughout the great 2020 ammo famine. Edit: I'm surprised at the number of responses to this. To clarify, I'm neither a lover nor a hater of .40 S&W. I never fired it and I've never seen anything to show it's so much better or worse than 9mm to make a significant difference. All I can say is what my brother in law says. Another spin: He's always loved reloading so had piles of 5.56, 9mm (for his friends), 12 gauge, and .40 S&W in 2020. To him reloading is a pleasant meditative experience he'd do even if the government gave out ammo for free. So 4 years after 2020 he could probably supply a USMC combat division.
@hburn100 Said, no one. Deputy Sheriff for over 20 plus years. My Dept still carries the 40 cal in Glock dress. It's a great round. Tested and proven on the streets. Bean counters like the 9mm because of costs, bottom line. Rank n file still prefer the 40 cal.
Howdy Sheriff, I'm a retired Texas peace officer with 40 years in, a TCLEOSE (now TCOLE) licensee to teach law enforcement classes and law enforcement firearms. I have never worked for a department that issued firearms to the officers. Instead, each one (6 total) had a written policy which said each officer must supply their own duty weapon (handgun). Further, that weapon must be: 1) made by a high quality manufacturer, 2) at least a .38 spl caliber (no maximum specified at the time), 3) DA/SA revolver or an automatic. It was further explained that one should carry the most powerful caliber that one could reliably/consistently hit the target with. The choice was left to the officer because it was the officer's life on the line. I started off with a .357 S&W with a 6" bbl. I was "normal sized" back then (6' /220lbs.). I carried duty weapons, at one time or another, in each of the following calibers: .357, .45 Colt, 9mm, 40 cal., 10mm, and .45ACP. I eventually settled on 10mm for the last 15 or more years of my career. I sometimes carried a .45 1911 for my light work days, and a .40 cal when just "running to the store." I never would work for a department which had a policy which requited me to carry ONLY what the least capable shooter in the department could hit with. I had a Capt. once explain the need for standardization. "If you come up on a scene and the first officer there needs more ammo, you can hand him one of your magazines." Nope, nope, NOPE! It that officer fired all his ammo (three 15 round mags and one in the chamber for a total of 46 rounds) and didn't stop the fight, then I'll be dammed (litterally) if I allow him to waste my ammo, and endanger the public further with their poor shooting. Sorry for the wall of text, but I had a lot to say.
You obviously were never in the military, because if everybody in the military just thought me me me me me me, then everybody have a different caliber a different gun and their shit wouldn't work together. Way to be a team player!🙄
I agree. Carried the 40 caliber for most of my career. Retired a while ago. My department went back to 9 mm because the beta males and females couldn’t fire it.
In a full size pistol sure I agree with you but most people don't want to conceal a full size pistol, and in a compact or subcompact that recoil is gonna get way more stout. 9mm subcompacts have good capacity and the recoil is manageable, this is only from the perspective of an average citizen not in any professional capacity
Likewise, I have several 40 caliber handguns and I think it is a solid round. That being said I also have 9mm , 45 and 357 mag handguns. For stopping power I'll still stick with one of my 357 revolvers.
My first handgun was a short 45. I was weened on recoil. I had that gun for about 7 years before selling it. Today I use 9mm and 357 as my main calibers. I'd like to have another 45 eventually, though. I still have plenty of 45acp ammo in the closet. I've just never been attracted to 40. I'd buy a 10mm before a 40 because I spend a lot of time poking around in the woods and 500lb black bears have been seen around here from time to time.
In terms of power and effectiveness when shooting a BG directly, I think it's so stupid to say 9mm is the same. All the advances that allowed 9mm to "catch up" to 45 was also applied to the 45. It didn't just stagnate for decades. The 45 ACP has on average about 30% more energy, bores a bigger hole, and its hollow points expand a lot more. This isn't negligible if anyone is being intellectually honest. The extra recoil and kick from the 45 isn't for no reason. The energy goes somewhere. Where the 9mm shines is capacity, low cost, and ease of shooting from the lesser recoil. 15-20 rounds of 9mm is pretty common. 45 is too fat to carry many rounds easily and it takes more practice to get good at controlling the recoil compared to the 9mm so the cost for 45 adds up. People who wank 9mm even go so far as to say it's as good as .357.....no it ain't. 357 has on average about 30% more energy than 45 ACP and improves even more when shot from a carbine whereas 9mm gets most of the juice out just coming from a handgun. 9mm came in mainly to have compatibility with our allies' ammo of choice and for more capacity, not because 45 ACP was lacking in performance.
@@hanson544 Check out the "Taylor KO Factor". Most of the time we use muzzle energy as the be-all end-all of ballistics, but that leaves out projectile diameter. 9mm NATO = 7.2 KO .45 ACP Ball = 12.6 KO .357 Magnum = 12.08 KO 10mm is around 13-ish For Comparison, the 5.56mm NATO is 5.6, .30-30 is 14.9, .308 Win is 21. and .45-70 Gov is 54. Of course, the KO Factor does account for projectile expansion. Many of us tend to carry pistols with short barrels, without realizing how much we are giving up in velocity. Personally, I want 4" of barrel, especially with .45 ACP.
"The optimum shoe size is size 10D; if you're wearing any other shoe size, you're doing it wrong." - This is what the caliber debate sounds like to people who understand that every shooter is different, just as every platform and application is different. Carry the caliber you will practice, practice, and practice some more with and use modern self-defense ammunition. If you're comfortable shooting a larger caliber, good for you, because you get to have that extra fraction of a percent of lethality. But I'd rather a shooter sacrifice that fraction if it means them shooting a caliber they'll actually become proficient with.
I have found that shooting the larger rounds has improved my ability with the 9. I don't have anything against the 9, but I am a 70s kid who grew up in the '80s. Bigger is better...as long as you can hit what you are aiming at.
The fbi said that with modern bullet technology, the 9mm is the way to go. Well, that same technology applies to the 40 cal. So , I will stick with the 40
The powers that be also tell us that your safer not to run from a Tornado but rather get out and lay in a ditch. I firmly believe the reason is because they don't wantnt people running and causing wrecks. I think the same is true with all this. 9mm with modern bullets don't seem to ever exit a body so over penetration isn't a concern so they just tell us it's just as effective. Rather than tell us the truth and let us decide. Just a theory of mine. After seeing that video of the deputy shooting the guy 12 times point blank I thought of that.
The only reason the FBI went from 9, to 10, down to 40, and finally back down to 9 again, was because their agents couldn't handle the recoil of the larger calibers, they publicly admitted that at every step. It really had nothing to do with "advancements in technology", because those same advancements are immediately applied to every other caliber on the market, negating any and all advantages for the 9 except for cartridge count. Instead of training their agents to have better recoil control and superior shot placement, they just capitulated for a measly 2 more rounds capacity per mag, something that could have been duplicated in larger calibers with extended baseplates.
@@thebluestig2654 Why don't you tell us where you imagine the FBI "publicly admitted that at every step". Saying the 9mm is easier to control and make hits with, is just a fact. I've been shooting for more than 45 years, including IPSC for quite a few years, and I shoot 9mm better too. And with current bullet technology, the differences in performance between 9 and .40 don't justify it's more recoil and lower capacity. Hits are what wins gunfights, not some tiny difference in performance.
The beginning of the video sounds like you were trying to show the 9mm wins the debate. Then, after shooting both pistols, and the 40S&W held a tighter group it changed to they're always good. I did find it funny you complained about the 9mm not shooting as well as you're used to shooting because it isn't as heavy. Almost like the 40S&W felt better in your hand. Yes, all duty calibers work. But, when calibers are discounted because smaller & new people can't shoot them as well, it doesn't mean the light calibers are better. It just means the government is trying to save money by only buying what the majority can handle, even if it isn't quite as good. But, yes, use the gun you shoot the best. Larger backstraps on the newer Glocks have helped me shoot my 9mm about the same as my 45ACP & 10mm Glocks.
@TeddyBear-lb9ho If you're in a war zone, you're carrying a rifle as a main weapon. If you wake up at home, you grab a shotgun. If you're walking around 99.9% of your life, most people will be using a pistol. It's a nonsensical argument 99.9% of the time.
You have got to be joking. You shot a well centered group with the 40, and threw three rounds high with the 9mm and you are claiming they are about the same???
You have to be the one joking. You're basing a small sample size as the end all be all truth of the matter? Do you know understand the concept of statistics? You're like 50 years old, you should understand logic by now. Here's a simpler way of looking at it, why do you think he was more accurate with the 40? Because 40cal is more accurate lol? And if so, why? LOLOLOL
@@UrbanDefenseSystems no, I am taking the results as what they are. The basic synopsis of his video was that people could not shoot the 40 as well as the nine. Ballistically, you would have to be ignorant to believe that, all things being equal, the two cartridges were equal.
I am never in favor of changing to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Especially when we are talking about a duty weapon and caliber. If training can't fix an officer's inability to handle a 40 S&W and place shots, then they are in the wrong place. Period. I mean, what else can't they manage? See my point? Yeah.
The debate has been OVER FOR YEARS among the professionals. All the professional competitive shooters and high tier military/leo units are all using 9mm. It's not that 10mm, 40, or 45 are inherently hard to use. It's that 9mm does basically almost the same thing as those other cartridges and is more controllable. Allowing you to put more rounds on target. And not just on target, but in small vitals which is what you should be interested in hitting. Not to mention more capacity, lighter and smaller guns which are easier to carry around all day. One day a better cartridge will be developed (or has been already) and we'll have 9mm guys saying "if you can't control a 9mm... blah blah blah". I still own other bigger caliber guns for fun at the range, outdoor use, etc. But for professional use, a 9mm is hard to beat.
The debate only ends when the internet dies
No bigger truth has ever been spoken
👏 👏
The debate started way before the internet was invented.
@@JJVPYOUStarted, yes.
This video is disingenuous at least and misleading at worst. The ballistics tables do not show a negligible difference in performance at the top end of these rounds. It’s quite clear that which rounds edge the others out. 357sig can put up numbers inside 10mm and 357 mag territory. 9mm is argued only in the sense of practicality. With a well placed shot it is enough to stop would be attackers. It’s cheaper than the rest to shoot and it’s easier to manage in similar sized pistols. It is not as powerful as any other round mentioned in this video. 9mm is a fine round. 45acp is a fine round. The fact is tho that 357sig is superior to 40sw and 40sw is superior to both 9mm and 45acp. The rest is bs. You literally shot the 40 better in this video and didn’t even mention it as it went against your prediction haha.
Interesting analysis.
Used a 1911A1 in 45 Auto for 3 years in S.E. Asia with 230gr G.I. ball ammo with excellent results in actual close quarters combat. Eight years later, I was a peace officer carrying a S&W mod 28 357mag revolver. Was involved in three shootings. I walked away from them. As a patrol officer for 4 days a week, and armorer for the 5th day, I worked on the department weapons. Later, an additional assignment, I ran the officer involved shootings team. There,I investigated, studied, and reported to the chief of police on these shootings. And, of course, I was not approached by command when they decided to switch to autoloader pistols. The PD chose the Beretta 92F 9mm. 😒
Our rate of fire/effective hits rose from 1.3 rounds expended with the .357mag, to 4.8 rounds with the 9mm. I was not surprised.
So, looking back to the many single hits from the 1911A1 I used where highly motivated and professional NVA soldiers fell to the 45 Auto. And the ARVN troops I fought with using 9mm pistols firing multiple times in combat, I'm relatively confident in comparing these results with that in the PD's choice of the 9mm. In exchange of rounds in close combat with handguns, the 9mm is inferior to larger, more powerful rounds. This is solely based upon personal experience, and statistical analysis of shootings of police officers against armed criminals within the agency I was employed.
So do I now, long retired, have large caliber revolvers personality? Yes, several. And do I own any autoloader pistols? Yes, two. Both 1911A1 in 45 Auto. Any polymer 9mm's in my safe? Nope. Not a single one. I personality will only use what I know what is effective, and discard which is not.
Now all you younger shooters, who only punch paper and gelatin, with no combat experience, can begin the howls of declaring me a Fudd. Fine. Call me whatever you like. Won't phase me a bit. 😏
I'm just a target shooter and not overly good, I've got a Beretta 92F, a CZ preB , and a Ruger 1911. I'm more accurate with the 1911, than the other 2 despite the bigger recoil. Why? Because of the trigger pull, the 1911 is so much better imo.
@@johnod1955 You bet! The 1911's trigger design is pure genius! Back in the 80's and 90's, I operated a gunsmith business on the side. I was building 3 to 4 custom 1911's a month. I'd guarantee that they'd hand cycle a full mag of empties or no charge. I really believe that the 1911 design is as good as it gets.🙂
One tour in afghanistan for me, I'm 28 and I carry a .45 acp, it's a glock 30 so I'm sure you won't like that, but I wanted that powerful ball.
I switched from 9mm to 45acp last year and I have no regrets. I was actually surprised at the recoil impulse of the 45 - it isn't so much snappy as much as it pushes your gun back. I like it
Well... we aren't using ball ammo for self-defense. The 9mm velocity, ability for quick follow-ups, and capacity far outweigh any 45acp benefits in self-defense or combat period!
Pretty clear to me that the 357 sig and 45 acp wound channels blow away the 9mm... The 40 SW looks like middle ground..
I agree. The gel test energy dump in the first 6" is very different. They might all stop at the same point, but if the caliber has more energy when it hits the target and stops at the same place, it has to transfer more energy in a smaller distance.
Ya surprisingly ya.
Check out the new age light 9mm rounds on gel like liberty civil defense and underwood extreme defense. Much more aggressive temp wound chan
@@jdm8798 They're so good that precisely 0 LEOs or anyone that matters adopted them.
@literallynobody1515 logical fallacy. It's cost prohibitive for departments to adopt over conventional hollow points. When you're ordering ammo in the millions of cartridges, you can see where the budget can get bloated. Personally I'm not a fan of the Civil defense loadings as I prefer to have more penetration with a projectile that's retained weight. The extreme defender, however, is my preferred choice in carry ammo.
Funny because the pictures of the 45 on the ballistic gel look quite a bit bigger compared to the first 9mm.
The bottom 4 have a bigger wound cavity but the distance is about the same.
Indeed. It's odd that the sheriff says they're all very similar. The 45 ACP gel shot is cut off at the bottom, and in spite of that it still dominates the others, quite noticeably.
@@bangsteellongrangeshooting3413 the wound cavity was (slightly) larger but penetrated less than some and a little more than others. Wasn’t cut off enough to see the results.
I have carried the 10mm , 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm professionally in that order. 10mm is a totally different beast when loaded properly…. The load we used was basically a 40 S&W. I love each round. I have found that apples to apples the 40 performs better than 45 or 9. Same bullet equal (ish) barrel lengths. Both the 9 and the 45 were designed at military FMJ bullets. The 46 is often not moving fast enough to expand the hp. The 9 often has a smallish hp that gets clogged.The 40 was designed as a police round. The 40 recoil is sharper than either 45 or 9 and does give some shooters fits and can definitely cause a flinch. This debate will never end😂
Scientical the 40S&W hasnt much more recoil than 9mm but the 45 has much more. Watch the video "What caliber is harder to control - 9, 40, or 45?" Its very interesting , no waste of time.
I'm pretty sure Paul Harrell settled this question some years ago. The .40 S&W is, all other things being equal such as manufacturer and bullet construction, is superior based on meat target performance. Unless you don't like the .40. Then "you be the judge". That's why I rotate between 9, .40, and .357 Sig. I'm confident in all three and base my carry decision on other factors besides caliber alone. Example, the .357 Sig is an "outside" caliber. Because it's LOUD.
Yes!!!
357 sig with 115 gr are pretty obviously different in ballistics gel testing. Definitely don't need to worry about over pen. Those suckers explode.
The meat target is a joke. But all the bubba's eat it up. Random groceries are not a reproducible medium for testing.
@@bobby9930 The meat target will give you a ballpark idea of how your gun/ammo will perform if you are ever attacked by something other than a block of jello. 🤔
@@kevingoebel170 No, actually it won't. It's just something entertaining, that looks cool for the gun magazine and internet crowd, that have no understanding of what reproducible testing means, and it's not random groceries... Many of that crowd still believe in the fictional books and gun magazine articles on "street performance" from the 1990's. Meanwhile, the financially driven, gunwriter fueled distrust of gelatin continues. Unfortunately for them and their boutique ammunition company interests, properly prepared porcine gelatin testing, through various common barriers, has been proven to correlate very well to field results for more than 30 years. Which is why we have so many great choices in self defense ammo today, from the major manufacturers who test to it. But continue to believe in fairy tales if you choose.
The standards for peace officer firearms qualifications should be much higher than what they are! If a woman or man can’t handle a cartridge like a 40 or 45 they should look for another job. The departments shouldn’t accommodate incompetent people with watered down cartridges.
DEI hires.
In the 1980s, I was in the first Academy class that went to 9 mm. The department had 38 caliber at that time. In the 90s we adopted the 40 caliber. Since I’ve retired, they’ve gone back to 9 mm because of the beta males and females. Sad.
The old adage is still true: variety is the spice of life! Having a variety of 'mouths to feed' gives one a sense of security. Plus, whenever one caliber ammo is on sale, it makes it easier to stock up.
I prefer a 10 mm. That way I don't have to share ammo at the range with all of the 9 and 40 guys.
Thank you for your insight! Unfortunately people get hung up on caliber as if it affects performance, when it boils down to the performer, as you so well stated. Thanks again for posting. 😊
I guess you carry 32 acp
@@FoulPet 25 ACP. Not trying to break my wrist. I guess you carry .44 mag?
@@Mr.Jeff_356 Caliber doesn't matter. 22lr is king
Listen, I'm a 9mm guy, but to say that 45acp performs worse on a person than 9mm is simply not true. With your logic you should just carry a 22LR gun with you because caliber doesn't affect performance
@@waholoopesorry74 I carry 9mm too. Just agreeing with the point that ballistically there isn't a great difference in defensive rounds if you get proper ammo. Shot placement is what's more significant.
I laugh at people claiming the 40 is too snappy but are shooting 9 with increased pressures to try to match the 40.
Retired LEO large urban agency in SE Texas. We were never issued sidearms. When I started in 1977, we predominantly carried .38/.357. I moved onto .45 ACP in Colt 1911 and Sig Sauer P220. For many years, the department required a .40 caliber from a specified brand name list. If an officer purchased a new handgun it had to be in 40 Caliber. I ended half my career with .40 S&W in a third generation S&W.
The department has reverted to allowing officers to purchase from a brand name list but any of the popular pistol cartridges...9MM...40 cal...45 ACP.
Carry what you wish...who cares, really ??
i remember when smith & wesson tried to get law enforcement to use 41 magnum. i like 357 sig & 357 magnum. i do have a 500 magnum.
9mm pistol is far more likely to be sold in hot pink, you failed to point that out
Ballistic gelatin is only an aporiximation of SOFT human body tissue. It is designed to achieve maximum expansion out of hollow point bullets, not to equate to a clothed human body. Put some denim layers in front of some wood or particle board to approximate clothing and ribs and try your gelatin tests again. You will see the .45 acp and the .40 S&W both significantly out perform the 9mm. Physics will not be denied. Heavier bullets (180 grain bullets moving at 950 - 1,000 fps) will penetrate barriers like clothing and bones better than lighter bullets (147 grain bullets moving at 1,100 - 1,200 fps). That said, most people shoot a 9mm more accurately than a .40 and shot placement is still king.
Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot "effectively" rather than the one you shoot "the best" afterall, we would all shoot .22 lr "the best".
“Lighter” Your comparison fails to take into account sectional density. 9mm 147gr and .40 180 gr have near identical sectional densities and similar momentum and energy values based on your numbers. There’s no significant difference in this barrier performance scenario you’re talking about.
Excellent points as I predicted. While I enjoy shooting many calibers, my EDC is carrying 9mm (Federal HST 147gr, standard pressure) for many reasons mentioned, including effectiveness, reliability & capacity. I train & practice primarily with 9mm.
Train with what ever, if you shit your pants at the time of truth it ain't going to matter
As a retired Law enforcement, i agree the best firearm is the one in your hand. I started my career with .38 special and ended with .40 in between we had 9mm and 357 sig. Of all of these i really liked my glock 19 it fit my hand perfectly and was comfortable to shoot. My go to conceal carry is a Glock 43x. I also agree that you should use the caliber you are most comfortable using.
Speaking for myself, at well over 70 yrs old , and with arthritic hands I don’t need the recoil of a .40 , plus I can pack a much smaller 9mm that weighs less with far more ammo . Not that I think I’d ever need it . At my age , the last thing I want is to be involved in a firefight.
I'm pushing 70 myself, with some arthritis starting up in my hands as well. I get how the .40 recoil might become hard on the hands, especially after a long shooting session, but then it would seem to make more sense to go to a HEAVIER gun chambered in 9mm, not a smaller gun, if recoil is an issue. This is why I usually practice with and carry my Beretta 92, rather than my Ruger LC9.
A lot of 45 studs from the past, like Ken Hackathorn, say the same thing. Their arthritis has them reaching for the 9. They aren't wimps, but they have new limitations.
The funny thing about that movie was that Harry makes it clear that shooting reduced loads makes him more accurate. So to some extent he liked the 44 special.
@@georgegravette1132
Yeah exactly , here recently I’ve taken to packin a 1911 in 9 mm . Or a Sig 365 with a 12 RD mag and 147 gr ammo . I still can’t shoot more than around 50 rounds on any given day , then I’m pretty much done for a week till some of the swelling goes down .
Lol believe it or not , a 1911 in .45 with critical defense ammo isn’t half bad for recoil , but I can’t afford to shoot it more than once in a blue moon .
@@georgegravette1132 I would HIGHLY recommend you switch to something in 32acp. Like the Beretta Model 81 Cheetah. You're smart enough to understand that heavier gun and lighter round = better shooting experience. The Cheetah is still small and lightweight enough to carry, it'll be somewhere between your Ruger LC9 and Beretta 92 dimensionally speaking, but the recoil will be lower than either. If you're worried about the terminal ballistics of 32acp, don't. Someday in the future many years from now, people will realize that bigger calibers are a fad. In the end, most calibers work just fine, shot placement is all that really matters. 32acp was used in WW1 and WW2 to kill countless people, and all they used back then was FMJ.
As the resident of a mag restriction state, we use the largest caliber that gets to 10 rounds per magazine. With artificial limitations on capacity, add power.
.357 Sig, 9MM, 10MM, .45 ACP for police or EDC like you say seem to have similar capabilities that I have seen. I'm 69 and grew up around WW1 & WW2 combat veterans and the last of the born in the 1800's Cowboys. They considered anything less than the .45 Long Colt pistol or .30-06 rifle to be substandard. My Dad was a friend of Elmer Keith and Mr. Keith's favorite guide Erv Malnrich so I basically grew up with and using the .44 Magnum single action for everything. My Dad, a Highland Scotsman came to the US after WW2 came from a line of Ghillies and Snipers. Classical shooting positions for rifle and pistol was absolutely mandatory. Safety was absolutely mandatory. So up until about 15 ago that was what I carried. No problems with accuracy and penetration noted. Was great if you don't mind Howitzer size and weight weapons. Today being considered old by bubble gum chewing latte swilling college grads I have started to carry a Sig P365 and I'm not sorry. Less weight and fairly accurate within combat ranges.
Just found your Channel and I'm now subscribed. Keep doing what you're doing.
Bullet tech today is way better than in the past so the 9mm of yesterday is not the same as the 9mm of today. This is not the time of the 1986 Miami shootout. So 9mm is very effective given more modern bullets. Yes folks can control 9mm better than .40Smith, .45ACP, 10mm larger major calibers. Folks will do better with lower recoiling minor calibers like .380ACP, 9mm, and .38Spl. and smaller size pistols like sub compacts. However if the pistol size gets too small like with micros then there is more recoil again. Personally like you I started with .45ACP so I am used to heavy recoil and most everything else standard pressure calibers is lighter recoiling by comparison. I won't use anything below .380ACP in the mouse calibers for defense unless that was all I had. Because by Ellifritz real world shooting data they fail to stop threats at much higher rates than standard calibers .380ACP and above. Yes by Ellifritz data and your gelatin photo, all standard pressure calibers stop threats at almost the same rate. I agree. Use the gun regardless of caliber you are most comfortable shooting and most accurate with. You are spot on with the caliber debate being over.👍👍👍👍
Excellent comment!
The answer is 10mm especially if your attacker is covered in fur, if you can handle the recoil, they're making better capacity for them now too in reliable and trusted brands.
For everything else get 9mm because the ammo is cheapest in AN effective caliber, more ammo, more training, more rounds down range, more range time.
Once you "master" 9mm, consider .357 sig for your carry, better temporary and permanent wound cavity, if you get really good with that consider 10mm for even better ballistics, and the ability to take down a bear if need be.
Overall it is mostly preference, and ability, start with 9mm in a compact (subcompacts aren't worth it IMO, harder to control for not much added concealment), carry daily, it's only effective if it's on your person. The gun you have is the best gun for you.
The reason to have pistols in many different calibers should be multi-faceted . Only one reason for me. Its called "having fun".
The recoil might have been “much” more out of the 40 but i couldnt see it! I zoomed in at the branches behind you in the little trees on both pistols and used them to gauge the muzzle rise and they were both pretty much identical.
Retired myself and watched the whole video. I'm also an FFL. So I guess I'm a "gun nut". When you brought out the SA35, you got a subscriber. I got mine from the factory when they were first introduced. I got a connection. Man I love that gun. So smooth. John Browning knew what he was doing. Even though it was completed after he went north.
So far, I have about 400 rounds thru mine. A couple of failure to ejects, but I have found I have a tendency to "ride the slide" with my support thumb without realizing it.
So far, I'm pretty happy. Another few hundred rounds and I'll get with my firearms guys and run a qual with it and see how it goes.
Failure of the 9mm/Winchester Silver Tips at the Miami-Dade shootout is why rhe FBI dropped the 9mm.
I hereby declare the 40cal the winner sheriff!! Send the wimpy officers to work at McDonalds. 😂🤣
From the video the recoil of the 40 S&W looks the same as 9mm. There is a very good video almost scientific "What caliber is harder to control - 9, 40, or 45?" There from a randsom rest you can see objectivly, that there isnt much recoil difference from 9mm to 40. This video is very good.
The reason why the FBI went to replace their 9mm handguns back in the 80’s with 10mm Auto relates back to the infamous 1986 Miami Dade Shooting.
One of the agents managed to get a shot off with his 9mm handgun that hit one of the shooters through the arm and into his lung, stopping just short of the shooter’s heart. It was certainly a fatal wound, but it wasn’t an immediately fatal wound. The shooter managed to fight for a few more minutes, injuring and killing a few agents.
This supposed lack of “stopping power” is why the FBI went with the 10mm before discovering that some agents couldn’t handle the 10mm, and we got the .40 as a result. But with the advancement of reloading technology, 9mm has closed the gap where it didn’t before in the 80’s. As a result, the FBI recently switched back to the 9mm. 9mm has less recoil than a .40 or 10mm, and it is also cheaper to shoot than those rounds.
I carry a 10mm as my EDC, but I recognize that not everybody can handle the 10mm. For EDC in the city, you certainly will not be under-equipped carrying a 9mm. Now for woods defense, a 10mm is more appropriate.
And the correct answer is 10mm.
At first I thought it was 9 mm vs .45 acp. Shoot bowling pins, you can SEE the difference.
Guess I was fortunate to learn how to manage .45 when I was a teenager from my grandpa. He was a WW2 Army vet and NHRA instructor until the 80s. .40 and 9mm are both easy for me with medium hands. I’ve done 3 gun with all three, competitive with any of them.
There's not much difference between a car that goes 140 MPH and one that does 155 MPH but one will win a race more than the other one. The difference in caliber and energy levels may not make a difference the majority of the time but it may in some cases.
Thanks for this. I always appreciate and prefer common sense vs the keyboard egos.
Glock 22 was best duty weapon I carried. Started with the S&W 439 then to the 5904. Both were way too snappy for my liking. Once you master the Glock trigger reset it's a piece of cake to fire.
Don’t claim to be an expert but….imho aim is 90% and size and velocity of bullet is 10%. If you can shoot 45 or 40 and hit what you aim at -great. For the rest of us hit what you aim at. I also note that there will always be “new and better” calibers.
It’s called marketing.
I think that we should have a pistol for each caliber. That way during hard times we can still find what ever ammo is still left. There are all great ammo! But, I'm a 40 cal guy. And if you like something other than 40 cal? Great! Just be good with it! And stock up!
More recoil means you need a heavier platform.
I had a G20 that I hated. I thought the recoil was excessive using 180 ge/1200 fps ammo. When I run that exact same ammo through a 1911, the recoil is very similar to a 45 acp through a 1911.
Great video and channel but as others said, what caliber you pick means very little in the civilian realm. .380, 9mm, 45. You'll probably only need your gun once and in a hurry. No bad guy wants shot by any caliber. So reliability and comfort of the shooter is really all you should worry about when it comes to caliber.
Former NYPD LEO(Ret), and currently train LEOs that fail their yearly qualifications and the 9mm is pure garbage and an amateur round which is why they give it to LEOs and the military. I re-train daily active LEOs that fail their qualifications and 99% are carrying 9mm while the ones carrying 40s&w, 357Sig, 45ACP and even 10mm rarely come through my doors because they are people who actually take the time and improve themselves and their skills rather than "just get by" like the DEI hires. The 9mm is only popular because that's what the FBI said works the best....before that they said the 40S&W was the best, the 10mm before that, the 357Mag before that and the 38Spl before that! The problem is continually lowering standards to appease those who don't deserve the positions they are required to be placed in. Sadly Ive personally seen the 9mm fail numerous times, once I wish it did what people ignorantly believe it does, and the rest of the times Im happy the 9mm didn't work on the victims they were used on. Also qualified immunity is why 9mm works for LEOs because they just seem to mag dump perps anymore so even a .25 or 32 would work under those conditions. Is there a "perfect" round? Absolutely not but near perfect? Absolutely! The 357Mag, 357Sig, 40 S&W are almost perfect, when using properly loaded(SAAMI spec) ammo and competent training.
Shot placement is what determines the end of a gunfight
40 S&W=38-40 Auto.
Sheriff, do you notice that you are re griping your left hand with each shot on the .40 and almost every shot on the 9?
CARRY 45 CAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE A "46"
And the guys carrying a 50 caliber handgun laugh and say "These feeble wannabe diversity kiddies these days".
What about the wound cavity difference?
There's a difference, but enough to make a difference if you shoot one more accurately than the other?
New to your channel and appreciate your input on the “caliber debate”. Looking forward to more great content.
FBI statistics have shown over and over and over again. That shot placement is more important than caliber.
It's more about the person behind the gun but I carry a 40, lots of loads I can shoot and choices as well as 9 mm. 40 can be loaded to near 600 ft/lbs so energy it's no argument over a 9 mm, depends on what works for you, not so much caliber. a 40 equal to 9 mm is the watered down 165 grain hydra Shok, this load was for sensitive LEO and energy watered down to 352 ft/lbs, the same as a standard pressure 9 mm although most LEO could handle more potent loads. Even a 22 lr has lost no more gun fights then a 9 mm in research involving private citizens, it's about the person behind the gun, not necessarily the caliber. Claude Werner is the top defense researcher, in defense military and law enforcement can't be lumped in with the private citizen research, the research shows that it's not about caliber because of all the variables in a gun fight in Wich the out come has more to do with the person behind the gun then the caliber, think of it like UFC fighting sports, each guy has a skill, a smaller guy doesn't mean he will lose the fight because it's more about how he uses his skills, no gun or caliber has all the advantages with no disadvantages, its the yin and yang concept meaning for every strength is a weakness and for every weakness there is a strength. It's a trade off, for example maximum energy yet slower follow up shots, or energy of a round vs mag capacity of a round, small compact low capacity vs duty gun and high capacity, a revolver with low capacity you can draw lightning fast vs a high capacity gun you draw slower, a powerful gun with not optimum accuracy vs a lower power gun with mag dump accuracy and I can go on, even about the person behind the gun like their training and tactics matter more then the caliber, over all it's making fast accurate hits with no recoil small caliber or making that first shot count with high recoil large caliber, each can get the job done if shot placement is key, a drop in blood pressure hitting the heart, the cranial vault, spine, these are the goal. most private citizen defense situations the gun fight is only 3 seconds long, shorter then 7 yards and bad guys running despite your caliber or capacity. for every 22 lr gunfight a citizen loses you find just as many 9 mm who lost a gun fight Wich is proof that for a private citizen any caliber will work, you train though for it. the car wash gun fight proves a point about caliber where a guy with 22 magnum had a shoot out with a guy using a 9 mm and they both are dead. another example why it's not about caliber is Tim from Ohio being a police officer using over 14 rounds of 45 ACP and couldn't stop a sober suspect untill he with the last shots hit head and heart, shot placement is key to stopping someone, a guy with a 22 may have done better in that gun fight but it depends on the guy behind the gun not the caliber. in tims situation a private citizen doesn't have to chase and put cuffs on or even go look for a suspect, this is why a private citizen is way different then a police officer since they only have to get cover, defend and break contact, just the opposite of what military and police have to do, a private citizen needs less resources, that's why small calibers and low capacity guns get the job done, the gun fight is only a few seconds, thankfully almost always bad by guys run. we also have to look at why a private citizen loses a gunfight, often it's poor tactics and less about caliber, its the person behind the gun.
The job of a handgun cartridge is to fight my way to a bigger gun. 😐
The caliber debate has been over for a very long time. 9mm wins every category that matters.
Does that mean it's the right caliber for you? NO.
For most people, the 9mm is the best mix of flat shooting, accuracy, capacity, recoil, price, availability, reliability, power, and choice...
You can get 50 cal hand-cannons or 22 shorties or anything in between. And they all have pros and cons that may make them the right choice for you.
There's two things to consider though:
1) the further you get away from the 9mm in size/power, the more specialized it is. A 22 isn't an everyday carry round unless you have a specific need. (arthritis or something)
2) the closer to a 9mm you get, the more you might as well get a 9mm. If you're going to carry a round with a similar performance that likely won't make a difference in the real world compared to a 9mm... Which is most rounds, 40, 45, 38, 380... The difference in performance is usually negligible and they cost more and are harder to find and either have poor penetration or more recoil or less capacity or less flat trajectory.
With a bonus 3) use what you have. Don't spend hundreds on another gun unless yours really doesn't work for you. Better to spend that money on ammo and training. Caliber doesn't matter if you miss.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Too add, improvement in bullets. As for me what I do best is with a Beretta PX4 Storm full size in 40 using a 135g-140g jhp. Shoots great with manageable recoil. It’s a chunky piece, though and not my 1st choice for ccw. My 2 choice, I have a S&W MP Shield EZ in 9mm. For 3rd, I inherited an early 80s Model 66 2-1/2 bbl in 357. Great video, thanks.
Basically, I see you should shoot with the caliber that you can reliably handle, I know people who think a 9mm has much recoil, so maybe they should use a 380 acp.
Personally, I shoot 10 mm and 40 S&W.
With factory ammunition, I can barely tell the difference between the two.
My handloads are a different story, though.
And I'm sorry, I had to laugh at the comment that the 10mm recoils like a 41 magnum, it's my favorite caliber for handgun hunting and the 10mm with full power loads isn't even close to full power 41 magnum.
6.5" Ruger New Model Blackhawk flat-top 240gr wfn just under
1400 ft/sec.
I also wanted to add that I have never liked the glock pistols. I'm a large man with big wide hands, and none of the glock grips are comfortable in my hands.
Then, several years ago, I got the chance to shoot a polymer 80 in 9mm and was impressed with how easy it was to bring to the ready position, and it pointed naturally, more like my 1911s.
So I ended up building three, a 9mm, 40, and a 10mm with quality barrels slides and triggers.
And after a couple hundred rounds through each, they've had zero malfunctions.
And now I've had a few thousand rounds though each, and I'm impressed with the reliability of them.
Nicely Done !
You have a subconscious movement of the left hand (grip adjustment). Its more pronounced with the .40
Thanks boss. Good video.
Sadly...way too much chatter from just one more arbiter...now, that should end that!
No debate on my end. I only have and carry one large semi auto, the Beretta .40 SW Storm. Not having a CC License, I open carry. Not in towns but when hiking and hunting in the back country. Having practiced extensively, the Beretta is very easy to control and accurate. For home / hiking defense, I have 14 rnd mags with standard 165 gr hollow points. For bear and cat country, I have 200 gr hard cast Buffalo Bore.
Considering a smaller frame, shorter barrel , lite weight 9mm to carry in car.
Actually the 357sig and 45acp channels in the jell and expansion look to be a good bit superior in the jell shot you posted.
Thank you for your 30 years of service Sir. From what I've been exposed to there is a jump, albeit small, between all pistol fired calibers except from .380 (9 mm short) to 9 mm. That jump in power/penetration is fairly large comparatively. My opine is this...if .22 lr is an effective caliber, then .380 is a more effective caliber. If .380 is an effective caliber, then 9mm is a more effective caliber. And so on and so forth. Find the caliber/pistol that you'll actually carry everyday all day due to your reasons. Caliber power/penetration is secondary to that. Again...just one person's opine. 🙃 edit: comment made before watching vid
I totally agree with your statement.
Grain weight times velocity = power. Do the math! This debate was settled years ago & 9mm won. Oh unless your need more power than 10mm. Oh unless you carry a revolver than 357 mag, but if you can’t handle it then 38 special, unless you’re Dirty Harry then 44 mag. See.. Settled!
Hiring females and manlets as police officers is nothing but headaches. I say this as a 20 year (retired) officer that also was a firearms instructor for 12 years and instructor cadre at the the basic and advanced academy for 4 years.
OVER, INDEED!...10mm. 😎👍
I don’t disagree with your position that calibre is irrelevant in the common service pistol cartridges or calibers. That being the case, and as an LEO, I will take the CAPACITY over the caliber. My service pistols are the Glock 45 and 19. I like that 17 and 15 rounds of comfort! Thanks for the video.
I still like 10MM when I'm hiking in the woods.
I completely agree. This is exactly what I taught my students for decades.
9 for the hood 10mm for the wood
Thanks so much for your info on this topic! Carry what you shoot well and have the gun you shoot well with you!!
You mentioned that you are a .45 ACP fan and carrier but might switch to your SA-35 once you prove it. Just curious, do you currently carry a 1911 or something else in .45 ACP? Thanks again for your level headed and experienced I put to your videos! Keep up the great work!! You sir are the kind of friend I want to have!! 🇺🇸
I agree only shoot what you can accurately and consistently but to say there is negligible difference between 9mm and .45 acp is not accurate. Anyone shooting at a 8" round 1/4 inch thick AR500 plate suspended on a chain can see the noticeable difference in kinetic energy delivered with each shot.
1. his first shots He had a better group with the 40 number. 2 how does this guy expect anybody to take him seriously when he's totally biased.. What he should have did is had somebody who loves the 40 on this video to compete with him.
Did you watch to end or just flapping gum?
I'm hardly biased.
Your comment seems to be biased towards what would have pleased you instead
@OneSvT my comment what an estimate of what I expected based on my experience with both guns and calibers.
My estimation was incorrect, not biased.
The debate is over: departments choose 9mm over .40 because some of their officers don't handle the .40 very well and everyone, therefore, must be issued the less capable caliber. By that logic we should all abandon 12 gauge for 20 gauge.
An ER doctor who was in one of my classes carried a .45. I asked him why such a big caliber. He said, "Because we don't see many wounds in the ER from calibers that start with '4'. They usually go straight to the morgue. In the ER we get mostly .22's and 9mm's."
Actually with slugs, a pretty convincing argument could be made for a 20, or the original loads for the 12. I have some commercial slug load that hit the shoulder and roar worse than the 458.
Probably because 9mm is currently a much more widely carried variation of ammo than .45.
@@tacticalskiffs8134 I've got a Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge 22" loaded with #1 buckshot as one of my HD guns for the family. Damage is legit with it
@@tacticalskiffs8134 especially in 3inch magnum loads!!. And I have several guns. But as family perfer 20 but I live with 3 wife and 2 daughters
@@PistolPeterson859Come on now_ what the Doc said was the .40 and .45 were 'killer rounds'; the 9mm, 'monkey business'! Come on now!
Paul Harrell has an excellent comparison of 9 and 40 without 15 minutes of resume fatigue. Barriers, accuracy, speed, numbers, actual comparison, etc. check it out.
Paul Harrell is the GOAT. No one does it like him.
This seems needlessly critical. Anecdotal evidence is interesting and valuable to some in the evolution of carry calibers. No one forced you to watch. Though if they did, please let me know and I'll come rescue you.
I've seen most of Paul's stuff. Solid dude, wealth of information.
Don't always agree with his take, but I do enjoy watching it.
Paul Harrell put this 9mm vs .40 S&W battle to rest a long time ago.
But, in my humble opinion, arguing about pistol caliber is like debating who is the best sex partner to procreate with. It's just silly.
The reason this argument rages on and on and on is that they all work.
My department issued the Glock 23, .40 caliber, before my ‘97 retirement but I don’t recall anyone having trouble qualifying w/it that didn’t also have the same problem w/the issued thirty-eight revolver. I survived a 1974 gunfight w/my issued Colt Detective Spl 38. revolver and agree with carry what you shoot the best. Caliber wars are nonsense.
Truth. Agreed.
I wonder why do some departments not issue the full size for police use, like the full size 22 over the compact 23
You and I seem to watch the same videos ! LOL. I really enjoy reading your comments. I take the advice of a man who has been on a 2 way firing range very seriously. Thank you Sir for sharing your real world experiences - and thank you Sir for your service.
@@c-jam6392Our department wanted a gun for both duty & off duty carry and the medium size G23 seemed to fill that role nicely. That said the requirement to carry off-duty was dropped shortly before I retired in ‘97.
“The caliber debate is over.” This must surely refer to some other planet….
Or alternate universe. 😂
You had a tighter group with the .40 over the 9mm.
I've been in the firearms industry for almost 40 years now, and I have noticed that the first thing that 9mm buyers do is hunt for the hottest +P load they can find. You need to do a side by side test pitting the hottest 9mm vs 155 gr 40 cal range ammo. Even then I think the 40 will still have the power advantage.
Some .40 is creeping on 600 ft lb.
40 and 357 sig are both ballistically superior to 9mm and 45.
This guy is literally looking at a bigger bullet with bigger energy dump with his two eyes balls and still don't believe true/facts science...... UA-cam brainwashing is a hell of a drug
@aboutmyfathersbusiness6907 Paul Harrell did a breakdown of 40 vs 9. I'm more inclined to side with him. 357 sig is what 9mm +P+ wants to be.
@@FoulPet yes sir! They sure do but never will be 357 sig
My brother in law is a retired sheriff deputy whose service time was when .40 S&W years as all the rage. He still swears by it. The irony for everyone who hated .40 was that it was the only round you could still buy online throughout the great 2020 ammo famine.
Edit: I'm surprised at the number of responses to this. To clarify, I'm neither a lover nor a hater of .40 S&W. I never fired it and I've never seen anything to show it's so much better or worse than 9mm to make a significant difference. All I can say is what my brother in law says. Another spin: He's always loved reloading so had piles of 5.56, 9mm (for his friends), 12 gauge, and .40 S&W in 2020. To him reloading is a pleasant meditative experience he'd do even if the government gave out ammo for free. So 4 years after 2020 he could probably supply a USMC combat division.
Because no one wants that trash round
@hburn100 you're special aren't you
@hburn100 Said, no one. Deputy Sheriff for over 20 plus years. My Dept still carries the 40 cal in Glock dress. It's a great round. Tested and proven on the streets. Bean counters like the 9mm because of costs, bottom line. Rank n file still prefer the 40 cal.
@@Thb1990 Usually people with little girls hands don't like to shoot the .40.
@hburn100 it's not trash,it just isn't the fad anymore! it's just as good as anything else.
Howdy Sheriff, I'm a retired Texas peace officer with 40 years in, a TCLEOSE (now TCOLE) licensee to teach law enforcement classes and law enforcement firearms. I have never worked for a department that issued firearms to the officers. Instead, each one (6 total) had a written policy which said each officer must supply their own duty weapon (handgun). Further, that weapon must be: 1) made by a high quality manufacturer, 2) at least a .38 spl caliber (no maximum specified at the time), 3) DA/SA revolver or an automatic. It was further explained that one should carry the most powerful caliber that one could reliably/consistently hit the target with. The choice was left to the officer because it was the officer's life on the line. I started off with a .357 S&W with a 6" bbl. I was "normal sized" back then (6' /220lbs.). I carried duty weapons, at one time or another, in each of the following calibers: .357, .45 Colt, 9mm, 40 cal., 10mm, and .45ACP. I eventually settled on 10mm for the last 15 or more years of my career. I sometimes carried a .45 1911 for my light work days, and a .40 cal when just "running to the store." I never would work for a department which had a policy which requited me to carry ONLY what the least capable shooter in the department could hit with. I had a Capt. once explain the need for standardization. "If you come up on a scene and the first officer there needs more ammo, you can hand him one of your magazines." Nope, nope, NOPE! It that officer fired all his ammo (three 15 round mags and one in the chamber for a total of 46 rounds) and didn't stop the fight, then I'll be dammed (litterally) if I allow him to waste my ammo, and endanger the public further with their poor shooting. Sorry for the wall of text, but I had a lot to say.
Only the rounds that hit matter.
I like your perspective. If someone needs more ammo then there is something horribly wrong
Yeah you're pretty smart I guess the military guys need to start carrying 30 rounds and no more !🙄🤡@waholoopesorry74
You obviously were never in the military, because if everybody in the military just thought me me me me me me, then everybody have a different caliber a different gun and their shit wouldn't work together. Way to be a team player!🙄
@@jerrydonquixote5927
The cops don't fight 50 vs. 50. Also, my house isn't the military.
If .40 in a duty size pistol is too much recoil to tame..you need to reevaluate your life choices..
I just noticed the name. We have to be related. 😂
I agree. Carried the 40 caliber for most of my career. Retired a while ago. My department went back to 9 mm because the beta males and females couldn’t fire it.
In a full size pistol sure I agree with you but most people don't want to conceal a full size pistol, and in a compact or subcompact that recoil is gonna get way more stout. 9mm subcompacts have good capacity and the recoil is manageable, this is only from the perspective of an average citizen not in any professional capacity
@@frebnewman6403lmfao. You must be super manly with your 40! I must be godlike with my 45!
You must Not know .40 came into being because the FBI were trying to kill each other with 10mm over penetration!
.40 cal was ALWAYS on the shelves even during ammo scares. I never ran low on .40.
Likewise, I have several 40 caliber handguns and I think it is a solid round. That being said I also have 9mm , 45 and 357 mag handguns. For stopping power I'll still stick with one of my 357 revolvers.
Same here.
Yep the debate is over, 45 ACP wins again...
AMEN!!
My first handgun was a short 45. I was weened on recoil. I had that gun for about 7 years before selling it. Today I use 9mm and 357 as my main calibers. I'd like to have another 45 eventually, though. I still have plenty of 45acp ammo in the closet. I've just never been attracted to 40. I'd buy a 10mm before a 40 because I spend a lot of time poking around in the woods and 500lb black bears have been seen around here from time to time.
In terms of power and effectiveness when shooting a BG directly, I think it's so stupid to say 9mm is the same. All the advances that allowed 9mm to "catch up" to 45 was also applied to the 45. It didn't just stagnate for decades. The 45 ACP has on average about 30% more energy, bores a bigger hole, and its hollow points expand a lot more. This isn't negligible if anyone is being intellectually honest. The extra recoil and kick from the 45 isn't for no reason. The energy goes somewhere.
Where the 9mm shines is capacity, low cost, and ease of shooting from the lesser recoil. 15-20 rounds of 9mm is pretty common. 45 is too fat to carry many rounds easily and it takes more practice to get good at controlling the recoil compared to the 9mm so the cost for 45 adds up.
People who wank 9mm even go so far as to say it's as good as .357.....no it ain't. 357 has on average about 30% more energy than 45 ACP and improves even more when shot from a carbine whereas 9mm gets most of the juice out just coming from a handgun.
9mm came in mainly to have compatibility with our allies' ammo of choice and for more capacity, not because 45 ACP was lacking in performance.
@@hanson544 Check out the "Taylor KO Factor". Most of the time we use muzzle energy as the be-all end-all of ballistics, but that leaves out projectile diameter.
9mm NATO = 7.2 KO
.45 ACP Ball = 12.6 KO
.357 Magnum = 12.08 KO
10mm is around 13-ish
For Comparison, the 5.56mm NATO is 5.6, .30-30 is 14.9, .308 Win is 21. and .45-70 Gov is 54.
Of course, the KO Factor does account for projectile expansion.
Many of us tend to carry pistols with short barrels, without realizing how much we are giving up in velocity. Personally, I want 4" of barrel, especially with .45 ACP.
As former law enforcement Thank you for ending this debate! Started carying
357 mag but now its a Glock 23 in .40
Why no G32?
45 auto with 230grain does the job.a lot of testing went into the 45 ,
"The optimum shoe size is size 10D; if you're wearing any other shoe size, you're doing it wrong." - This is what the caliber debate sounds like to people who understand that every shooter is different, just as every platform and application is different. Carry the caliber you will practice, practice, and practice some more with and use modern self-defense ammunition. If you're comfortable shooting a larger caliber, good for you, because you get to have that extra fraction of a percent of lethality. But I'd rather a shooter sacrifice that fraction if it means them shooting a caliber they'll actually become proficient with.
I have found that shooting the larger rounds has improved my ability with the 9. I don't have anything against the 9, but I am a 70s kid who grew up in the '80s. Bigger is better...as long as you can hit what you are aiming at.
The fbi said that with modern bullet technology, the 9mm is the way to go. Well, that same technology applies to the 40 cal. So , I will stick with the 40
The powers that be also tell us that your safer not to run from a Tornado but rather get out and lay in a ditch. I firmly believe the reason is because they don't wantnt people running and causing wrecks.
I think the same is true with all this. 9mm with modern bullets don't seem to ever exit a body so over penetration isn't a concern so they just tell us it's just as effective. Rather than tell us the truth and let us decide.
Just a theory of mine. After seeing that video of the deputy shooting the guy 12 times point blank I thought of that.
Tomatō, Tomató when it comes to hand gun... it is a tool to get you to your RIFLE!
The only reason the FBI went from 9, to 10, down to 40, and finally back down to 9 again, was because their agents couldn't handle the recoil of the larger calibers, they publicly admitted that at every step. It really had nothing to do with "advancements in technology", because those same advancements are immediately applied to every other caliber on the market, negating any and all advantages for the 9 except for cartridge count.
Instead of training their agents to have better recoil control and superior shot placement, they just capitulated for a measly 2 more rounds capacity per mag, something that could have been duplicated in larger calibers with extended baseplates.
10mm
@@thebluestig2654 Why don't you tell us where you imagine the FBI "publicly admitted that at every step". Saying the 9mm is easier to control and make hits with, is just a fact. I've been shooting for more than 45 years, including IPSC for quite a few years, and I shoot 9mm better too. And with current bullet technology, the differences in performance between 9 and .40 don't justify it's more recoil and lower capacity. Hits are what wins gunfights, not some tiny difference in performance.
The beginning of the video sounds like you were trying to show the 9mm wins the debate. Then, after shooting both pistols, and the 40S&W held a tighter group it changed to they're always good. I did find it funny you complained about the 9mm not shooting as well as you're used to shooting because it isn't as heavy. Almost like the 40S&W felt better in your hand.
Yes, all duty calibers work. But, when calibers are discounted because smaller & new people can't shoot them as well, it doesn't mean the light calibers are better. It just means the government is trying to save money by only buying what the majority can handle, even if it isn't quite as good.
But, yes, use the gun you shoot the best. Larger backstraps on the newer Glocks have helped me shoot my 9mm about the same as my 45ACP & 10mm Glocks.
Almost all pistol calibers suck, they exist to get you to your rifle.
Ridiculous comment parroted more times than it should be.
@FoulPet
Depends what the scenario is. If it's a warzone/gun battle then yeah, a rifle is what you need. Anything short of that, a pistol is plenty.
@TeddyBear-lb9ho If you're in a war zone, you're carrying a rifle as a main weapon. If you wake up at home, you grab a shotgun. If you're walking around 99.9% of your life, most people will be using a pistol. It's a nonsensical argument 99.9% of the time.
depends on the use brother and the cal
10mm and 357magnum have entered the chat
You have got to be joking. You shot a well centered group with the 40, and threw three rounds high with the 9mm and you are claiming they are about the same???
Ballistically, yes......... LOL.......
You have to be the one joking. You're basing a small sample size as the end all be all truth of the matter? Do you know understand the concept of statistics? You're like 50 years old, you should understand logic by now. Here's a simpler way of looking at it, why do you think he was more accurate with the 40? Because 40cal is more accurate lol? And if so, why? LOLOLOL
@@UrbanDefenseSystems no, I am taking the results as what they are. The basic synopsis of his video was that people could not shoot the 40 as well as the nine.
Ballistically, you would have to be ignorant to believe that, all things being equal, the two cartridges were equal.
@@everythingdefensivecarry1108 The results of one sample size. Look up the word SAMPLE SIZE.
@@UrbanDefenseSystems there is no need to be rude. Apparently we are talking about two different things from different perspectives.
I am never in favor of changing to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Especially when we are talking about a duty weapon and caliber. If training can't fix an officer's inability to handle a 40 S&W and place shots, then they are in the wrong place. Period. I mean, what else can't they manage? See my point? Yeah.
And gun stores always have piles of .40 ammo . It just doesn't sell as quick
That's cuz real men don't like it.
@@jerrydonquixote5927 as a small carry handgun .40 is quite decent more stopping power than a 9mm without a lot more recoil
@@user-wt9ge6wy8v saying stopping power in a handgun caliber debate invalidates your opinion...
What is nice about 9mm is the cost. Cheaper ammo means more practice at the range, That should mean more accuracy.
It appears the debate is as active as ever...
Thank you for your service!
All the duty calibers mostly used 9mm, 40 sw,357 sig, 45acp are all in the 90%+ for stopping threats.
They ALL Fall to Ball..."45acp"
The debate has been OVER FOR YEARS among the professionals. All the professional competitive shooters and high tier military/leo units are all using 9mm. It's not that 10mm, 40, or 45 are inherently hard to use. It's that 9mm does basically almost the same thing as those other cartridges and is more controllable. Allowing you to put more rounds on target. And not just on target, but in small vitals which is what you should be interested in hitting. Not to mention more capacity, lighter and smaller guns which are easier to carry around all day. One day a better cartridge will be developed (or has been already) and we'll have 9mm guys saying "if you can't control a 9mm... blah blah blah". I still own other bigger caliber guns for fun at the range, outdoor use, etc. But for professional use, a 9mm is hard to beat.
It ended for me when last 2 shortages 9mm was nowhere to be found...went back to my 40SWs never looked back...Been a Forty fan since early 90s!!❤