When apologists resort to personal attacks and the inflammatory language of bullies, you know they're weak. Apologists exist to convince true believers not to look at contradictory evidence, never to promote truth.
Granted I can be as mean as the next person; however in this case it comes with the territory you're describing. They are there - to deceive people. The story of Ravi Zacharias is a good example. The deceptive mindset, is similar to that of a psychopath and they have many amongst their ranks. In that it leads to this sort of ...instability, whenever they are challenged on any of it. The actual reason so many of them are jailed here in China; is because of the bigotry issue - and the aggression that follows.
Why do you (and 100+ people) think logos and pathos are one? Obviously you can say something true and be a bully about it at the same time. "1+1=2 dumbass". The point is so obvious and trite I don't know how you get people on board to the opposite.
@@LEASTOFUS Dan is a person of faith, so far as I understand. He may not believe the same way you do, but many people believe differently than each other. His academic examination of dogma isn’t an attack on anyone. He’s just teaching people to think critically about what they believe. Knowing why we believe things is important. Have a happy day.
@@TheBenAbney I can see that God Hasn't shown you understanding and opened your eyes to see yet, Dan will literally say his opinion as if its fact, I'm sorry to break it you but he's delusional, keep in mind i love this man, I only say this to shine light, You can't change unless you know what you currently are
It's always quite stunning to see someone so spectacularly ignorant of scholarship speak with such condescension to an actual biblical scholar. It's sad to see such adherence to dogma over data, but it's not surprising in itself. What *is* surprising is the smug superiority on display by this particular apologist. I'm quite amazed at your ability to remain so calm and level in your responses, Dr McClellan. Kudos as always :)
Yeah, I am always fascinated when nonscholars accuse actual scholars of being embarrassments to academia when they themselves are not academics. It is also comical when they spout theories as if they are fact that are well outside the mainstream scholarly consensus, but apologists have seldom ever let facts get in their way.
Whilst this apologist is obviously entitled to voice his opinion, it is significant that he seems unable to do so without being deliberately unpleasant. Dan, by contrast, not only produced his original video calmly and factually but maintains that dignity in his response. This alone should make us doubt the apologist. I don't know who he is but I seriously doubt his scholarship or credentials.
Dan, I’ve never hear you call someone “stupid” or that their argument was “stupid” or an “embarrassment to academia.” I’m not sure if this person is in academia, but the way they speak does not make me want to treat them seriously. I don’t like when my views, i.e. dogma, are challenged by data, that doesn’t mean that the data is incorrect. Neither does it mean I call the persons argument “crappy”, “stupid”, or “embarrassing”. Those pejoratives just mean that you’re getting emotional about the things you don’t like and that also makes me less likely to take the creator’s arguments.
Nobody simply stated McClellan is "stupid". The Creator rightly called McClellan out for his unhinged and unfounded bias against the Chuchfathers and their reliance on traditional narratives. You have to understand: the person who established the tradition of Gospel Authorship is none other than the apostolic father Clemens of Alexandria himself who was not only quoted by Eusebius, but stands inline with his predecessors Ignatius and Polykarp - who were students of St John. To deny a man who had very good historical connections or stood merely a generation apart from a certain Apostle of Christ himself is not only foolish but arrogant. You can take critical bias too far. This is what McClellan does.
So that other creator thinks that the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John which is not the prevailing scholarly view and the fact that they record events that they could not have possibly been eyewitnesses to such as the events prior to Jesus's birth, him preaching as a teenager in the temple, his temptation in the wilderness, Jesus's trial and many others.
The creator, who beats McClellan by a mile is stating that tradtion has cemented the authorship of the Gospels for good reason. Eusebius quoting Clemens is different from Eusebius supposedly describing tradtions passed down to him. A difference McClellan in his biased mind cannot make out.
I welcome this young man’s feckless display of ‘Christian love’ - speaking your mind in public is the essence of freedom! Dan’s response? Chef’s kiss, five stars ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
He always seems to provoke these ranting retards. Ironically the only one 'humiliated' was this ignorant waste of space himself. I get the sense Dan will have to weather this sort of thing indefinitely as the sky daddy cult begins to collapse. Hopefully he doesn't let it phase him and continues to put these worthless clowns in their place. The bigotry of the religious is almost impressive. Hard to fathom how they aren't ashamed of it.
And why, whether one is a believer or nonbeliever, it is important to examine artifacts, text, or other data, and carefully try to understand what meaning or data is actually justifiable in an artifact, or data, or text. The scholarship DrDMc and others (he is one of an army of careful thinkers) needs to be encouraged.
At first I thought he was just throwing shade like Dan does but he got nasty! Definitely took personal offense. This information didn’t even seem that important to me lol
The one thing that will make me distrust a person’s arguments the most is reverting to name calling and ad-hominem statements. And a large chunk of this apologist’s arguments are interweaved with personal attacks against Dan.
I truly enjoy watching Dan swat away all these ill-prepared apologetic responses; I think they may be my favorite videos. It's especially gratifying to watch him completely dismantle the rude and indignant apologists that cherry-pick facts from a Wikipedia page on ancient biblical texts and then believe they're a real PhD. (It's a cherry on top if the apologist is an actual PhD, but from a conservative evangelical school with no accreditations.)
Dan, kudos to you for keeping it civil. I'd be hard pressed to do so in similar circumstances. It's a testament to your patience that you're able to do it.
This "creator" is the exact person I think of when Dan types his disclaimer about not "harassing or commenting" on someone else's page. His smarmy and sanctimonious tone is driving me bananas.
What I can deduce is that Dan did not respond in a single setting but at least two settings. This is based upon the shirt changes (Spiderman vs Batman). This tells me that Dan carefully made sure that he articulated his position, as well as understood the argument from the apologists. He not only provided us with greater insight. He provided us with a teaching example of how we should respond in all matters. Thanks Dan.
.. the batman shirt was from a previous video that the other dude was reacting to. You have Dan reacting to a reaction video, which is why there's 2 shirts.
God is supposedly omnipotent, but somehow he needs an army of apologists to defend him. (Seems a bit suspect… 🤔) Oh, and he always needs money. Lots and lots of MONEY!!!
Dan McClellan, I admire your continued informed calmness, in the face of these unapologetic apologist reality deniers. It's frustrating to think that this insulting dogmatist's audience will mostly never see your comprehensive response video.
It’s like a kid arguing with the other kids (who know Santa isn’t real) that they’re stupid and “of course he’s real. How else to presents get to the end of my bed?”
The apologist, despite his struggles with logic and kindness, still exposed some areas that benefitted from the clarification in this video. I think we are now much better prepared for Papias enthusiasts. Papias described his own methodology as ,to paraphrase, repeating what people claimed if they claimed it came from the Lord. He delighted only in those who taught the “truth”, which implies that he thought he knew the truth already and filtered out testimony that didn’t match what he already believed.
I have to say. I am impressed that you kept your cool, explained how the other creator was wrong, and did not resort to any personal attacks on the other creator. Honestly, it makes it seem ae though you Dan, are on the side of logic and believability. Everyone who attacks you in this matter is just mad that you know more, and are taking their ball and going home so to speak..
This apologist's entire approach can be summarized as "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." Thank you, Dan, for pulling back the curtain and allowing us to assess the data for ourselves.
If Peter consulted Mark on the construction of his gospel, its intriguing that this gospel is missing key elements like: the virgin birth and the post resurrection appearances of Jesus. Its interesting that Papias would prefer hearing tales from elders over the gospels. If the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, they're immediately more preferable than elders including elders that were eyewitnesses. Memory fails overtime and his work is dated to about 95-110 AD. This wouldve made John the Elder 89 years old if John the Elder was the Apostle John and our ideas of his age are accurate. Pretty sure an apostle like Matthew writing 15 or so years earlier wouldve had a better memory than John who was older at the time. And it seems like Papias' ideas of what occurred based off oral tradition contradicts scripture so ig Papias heard eyewitness Elder testimony that heavily contridicts what this guy says Matthew, Peter, Paul, and John claimed. Theres no way you get what he said about Judas any other way.
Dan Shows us the difference between a serious scholar and a faithful apologist who works backward from a conclusion and will not move off that conclusion, no matter the data that contradicts that conclusion.
Dan, you might be a modern day prophet to teach the world the TRUTH of the Bible. I'm not gonna state that as a fact, but it's what I believe. Peace be with you, God bless!
The usage of personal attacks by this other creator really undermines their credibility. If they want to be taken seriously, they need to stick to the data.
If the other creator has anything useful to say I cant tell, because Im so distacted by how rude he was, resorting to personal attacks and insults instead of arguing his points and ideas.
When you can't pound the facts you pound the theories. When you can't pound the theories you pound the facts. When you can pound neither the theories nor the facts you pound the table. And this apologist is pounding the table.
For what it’s worth, I think one of the frustrations I have sometimes with Dan’s videos comes down to their length and often just their lack of citations. I really like it when he actually cites his sources and couches his language with the uncertainty that befits interpreting historical data, but I often feel when I’m watching a Dan video (even if his interpretations might well be supported by data) that the videos are too short. They don’t necessarily show that he knows what he is talking about and it can sometimes feel, to me anyway, as if he is making a lot of statements without laying down the data first. Again, though, I think it’s almost inevitable with ten minute videos like this.
People are not interested in data but rather the results that data brings out. Much like people who go to church but don’t bother to read the Bible and prefer for someone else to explain convoluted writings of a different language translated to today’s. That’s my issue with God. He had a perfect method to communicate with people, the burning bush.
No one responds in kind. When academics argue it is about the grey areas where one makes logical, educated deductions based on where they consider the evidence is pointing. Debate can be heated. The people who criticise Dan don’t seem to even know how to debate interpretations of evidence. They are only scratching the surface. Most only refer to one source and that is the source in question! It was good that this guy had some knowledge but, you know, maybe the Dunning Kruger effect is in play if he thinks he can speak on behalf of academia.
"So, is it more likely that Papias refers to Q and gThomas, when he talks about these gospels of his?" -----------when the early church fathers specify what language Matthew wrote in, they are unanimous that it was Hebrew. Yet they never specify that he wrote a second original in Greek. We are thus reasonable to insist that canonical Greek Matthew doesn't come to us from Matthew, but from some yet-unknown translator.
@@Tom-j4v7f The more reasonable stance is that canonical Greek Matthew has no relation to the Hebrew Matthew that Papias talked about - the name was simply assigned to it based on the Levi/Matthew name change and that's it.
@@soarel325 Sure, but when you debate an apologist, there is an advantage to allowing as many of their assumptions as possible. By crediting Hebrew Matthew to the apostle of the same name, I allow for their belief that Matthew authored something. The more common ground you can find with an apologist, the stronger he will perceive your justifications for rejecting the gospel. There is no such thing as completely objective argumentation. Mammals gravitate toward others with whom they have common ground, and they discount arguments from those with whom they have very little common ground.
Debate any believer (in any dogma) and it becomes a reduction, until their only argument left is faith itself. Blind faith at that. I don't begrudge anyone for resorting to blind faith in anything, if it helps them. As long as it doesn't impact me negatively, I'm good. My one blind faith is that a higher power exists. Trying to understand this power is a fool's errand, whose work product is all the religious writings and resultant dogmas down through the ages.
As I said in a comment in the original video, Christians have no good evidence for their authorship claims for any of the gospels. The best that they can do is come up with unsupported scenarios about how it is *plausible* that the assigned authors wrote the gospels. If they had good authorship evidence, they would simply present that, instead of coming up with ever more outlandish rescue mechanisms for their beliefs. In this case, being very butt-hurt while doing so.
I actually felt sorry for this creator as he called out your name and you proceeded forward with detached discipline. You have persuasively impacted his beliefs. More deeply, he likes you and he doesn't know what to do with his beliefs or feelings. I give this creator one of the higher grades on engagement because, unlike so many you disassemble into the pit of "utter nonsense," this sweet fellow knows you have the superior argument.
I always wondered why, in fiction, when there was a protagonist that was supremely over-powered that the antagonist(s) would still press their attack on them even though they should have known there would be only one outcome. So, you know, some poor schmuck sidekick punching Batman. It always seemed ridiculous that someone would, with full knowledge beforehand, pick a fight they could not win. I was sure that this would not happen in real life. And then it does 🤣
Even if I knew nothing about Dan and if this had been my first video about conflicts in biblical scholarship, I am for sure going to be against the one who keeps saying the other one is stupid and being generally insulting
people should realizes by now that marcion started the gospel tradition either by writing, redacting or collecting the very first gospel in existence and ten letters of paul thus starting the concept of a christian canon and stating later that the other christians added to it to make it more jewish to tie it up with judaism thus earning the respect of greco roman people who tolerates ancient religion and has disdain for new supersttitions like neo platonic christianity
I'm not sure why youtube is removing my comments. I've been trying to ask about the Papias reference and whether it actually says that (i am sire it does, but i was trying to point to a History Valley video which shows the quote where it doesnt appear to say quite that). I'll put the History Valley link in a separate reply below this one and see if iy works this time. It's very relevant to this because it's John Kloppenborg talking about Papias and how tjat might be a reference to Q. Link below, unless youtube deletes it again.
@@PhilSophia-ox7ep Dan just actually dsnt know if the names are the authors. Some people think mark was the young man who saw Jesus get arrested, Dan would probably say there’s no evidence, that clearcut evidence just dsnt exist. He would actually have to know why the names were used to actually know why the names were used. Even if the names were added later dsnt mean they weren’t the authors, it’s that simple
I'm afraid this creator is getting roundly hammered on social media for his lack of research. He's attacked Islam using a similar approach and should feel embarrassed at the results
Fairly accurate. Lunatics like this are pretty much harmless - as they discredit themselves easily with what you've said. The ones to watch out for however are the sweet talkers. So in a way this sort of thinking does have a flaw. In that you can be lead into thinking a calm and reasonable sounding person; is a good one. I mentioned it in another comment; but this is just like Ravi Zacharias. 40 years in 'apologetics' but struck off for being an abusive, blackmailing, sex pest and rapist. Beware the talented. Guys like this are...ironically lol... an 'embarrassment to academia'
It’s clear that the he is simply responding out of a need to be opposed to what you said, for no other reason then to fire up his followers in a quest to “protect the truth” aka dogma.
Can someone identify the angry dogmatic unprofessional individual in glasses whom Dan addresses in this vid? I’d like to pay a visit to their account and see what other unhinged nonsense they’re spewing under the guise of “spreading facts.”
Unfortunately, despite plainly having been trained how to do so, McClellan doesn't bother to cite his sources. The expectation and duty to provide a source for the original is no different on UA-cam than it is in academia. This intellectual failing is really my only gripe with his work but it is an issue.
We also know that Shakespeare probably didn't write all of the poetry and plays attributed to him, maybe none of it. And while this is historically interesting, it says nothing at all about the value of the writings.
He's making the assertion that this theory fits Dan's desires, and that Dan is blinded by what he wants to believe so as to miss out on what the evidence portrays. It's textbook projection.
As a Christian, I have no issue with accepting that the authors of the Gospels are anonymous. To me, it makes the most sense. I would never attribute my name to a work that would have me executed.
When apologists resort to personal attacks and the inflammatory language of bullies, you know they're weak. Apologists exist to convince true believers not to look at contradictory evidence, never to promote truth.
Yes. I like debate but people don't need to be mean
That’s utter rubbish. They have an agenda- just as does Dan. He needs to be more obvious with his, as they should with theirs.
Granted I can be as mean as the next person; however in this case it comes with the territory you're describing. They are there - to deceive people. The story of Ravi Zacharias is a good example.
The deceptive mindset, is similar to that of a psychopath and they have many amongst their ranks. In that it leads to this sort of ...instability, whenever they are challenged on any of it. The actual reason so many of them are jailed here in China; is because of the bigotry issue - and the aggression that follows.
Why do you (and 100+ people) think logos and pathos are one? Obviously you can say something true and be a bully about it at the same time. "1+1=2 dumbass". The point is so obvious and trite I don't know how you get people on board to the opposite.
I agree. I think their are some fair Apologists, that can transition people to belief. I think
Sometimes “alright let’s see it” has “come at me bro” energy in the most positive way possible, and I love it.
Yes its pride and no he is not being positive, he is being egotistical, this man does not follow God, just himself or the devil in other words
@@LEASTOFUS Dan is a person of faith, so far as I understand. He may not believe the same way you do, but many people believe differently than each other. His academic examination of dogma isn’t an attack on anyone. He’s just teaching people to think critically about what they believe. Knowing why we believe things is important. Have a happy day.
@@TheBenAbney I can see that God Hasn't shown you understanding and opened your eyes to see yet, Dan will literally say his opinion as if its fact, I'm sorry to break it you but he's delusional, keep in mind i love this man, I only say this to shine light, You can't change unless you know what you currently are
@@TheBenAbney Nice music by the way, i had a listen to Jolene, Gods given you a great talent, I love you brother
It's always quite stunning to see someone so spectacularly ignorant of scholarship speak with such condescension to an actual biblical scholar. It's sad to see such adherence to dogma over data, but it's not surprising in itself. What *is* surprising is the smug superiority on display by this particular apologist. I'm quite amazed at your ability to remain so calm and level in your responses, Dr McClellan. Kudos as always :)
Yeah, I am always fascinated when nonscholars accuse actual scholars of being embarrassments to academia when they themselves are not academics. It is also comical when they spout theories as if they are fact that are well outside the mainstream scholarly consensus, but apologists have seldom ever let facts get in their way.
Exactly. The guy is an embarrassment to apologists everywhere.
They take criticisms of the text as criticisms of them and their beliefs.
@@allanp3065I would say apologetics is an embarrassment in itself.
@@nates9029 Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, er, I mean apologetic argument.
All I heard is that Dan’s videos are so well researched that all this dude can do is insult. And insult poorly.
Whilst this apologist is obviously entitled to voice his opinion, it is significant that he seems unable to do so without being deliberately unpleasant. Dan, by contrast, not only produced his original video calmly and factually but maintains that dignity in his response. This alone should make us doubt the apologist. I don't know who he is but I seriously doubt his scholarship or credentials.
Yeah, the apologist is entitled to his opinion. Unfortunately, he seems to think that everyone else is entitled to it as well.
@@opinionhaver574 😁 well put
you had me at the first six words
I don't know, dan has for sure had his moments. Usually when someone is directly attacking women or the glbt community.
God grant me the patience needed to respond to that opener with "Okay, let's see it"
Dan, I’ve never hear you call someone “stupid” or that their argument was “stupid” or an “embarrassment to academia.”
I’m not sure if this person is in academia, but the way they speak does not make me want to treat them seriously. I don’t like when my views, i.e. dogma, are challenged by data, that doesn’t mean that the data is incorrect. Neither does it mean I call the persons argument “crappy”, “stupid”, or “embarrassing”. Those pejoratives just mean that you’re getting emotional about the things you don’t like and that also makes me less likely to take the creator’s arguments.
Nobody simply stated McClellan is "stupid". The Creator rightly called McClellan out for his unhinged and unfounded bias against the Chuchfathers and their reliance on traditional narratives. You have to understand: the person who established the tradition of Gospel Authorship is none other than the apostolic father Clemens of Alexandria himself who
was not only quoted by Eusebius, but stands inline with his predecessors Ignatius and Polykarp - who were students of St John.
To deny a man who had very good historical connections or stood merely a generation apart from a certain Apostle of Christ himself is not only foolish but arrogant.
You can take critical bias too far. This is what McClellan does.
when someone resorts to ad hominem attacks any credibility they had goes out the window...you are a gentleman Dan.
So that other creator thinks that the Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John which is not the prevailing scholarly view and the fact that they record events that they could not have possibly been eyewitnesses to such as the events prior to Jesus's birth, him preaching as a teenager in the temple, his temptation in the wilderness, Jesus's trial and many others.
The creator, who beats McClellan by a mile is stating that tradtion has cemented the authorship of the Gospels for good reason.
Eusebius quoting Clemens is different from Eusebius supposedly describing tradtions passed down to him. A difference McClellan in his biased mind
cannot make out.
When you are in a cult it is difficult to see that you are in a cult. You go Dan.
Dan is in a cult he’s a Mormon 😊
@@CommissionedNowSo how is his being a Mormon have anything to do with his intelligence and scholasticism?
You and Bart Ehrman are doing the world a great service - moving these conversations outside of academia and into the public sphere. Thank you.
I welcome this young man’s feckless display of ‘Christian love’ - speaking your mind in public is the essence of freedom!
Dan’s response? Chef’s kiss, five stars ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Dan struck a nerve, again.
Sometimes logic and reason are frightening to some.
He always seems to provoke these ranting retards. Ironically the only one 'humiliated' was this ignorant waste of space himself.
I get the sense Dan will have to weather this sort of thing indefinitely as the sky daddy cult begins to collapse. Hopefully he doesn't let it phase him and continues to put these worthless clowns in their place. The bigotry of the religious is almost impressive. Hard to fathom how they aren't ashamed of it.
And why, whether one is a believer or nonbeliever, it is important to examine artifacts, text, or other data, and carefully try to understand what meaning or data is actually justifiable in an artifact, or data, or text.
The scholarship DrDMc and others (he is one of an army of careful thinkers) needs to be encouraged.
Woah! That guy got very personal.
At first I thought he was just throwing shade like Dan does but he got nasty! Definitely took personal offense. This information didn’t even seem that important to me lol
I doubt the guy has had an important thought in his life. Hence the butthurt.
While talking about how Dan was explaining bog-standard NT scholarship, countered with "well it could have happened THIS way!"
Quite how Dan remains so calm with these people amazes me.
I would lose my mind. I don’t know how he does it….
Indeed, he has the highest level of pain tolerance of anyone I have ever seen.
The one thing that will make me distrust a person’s arguments the most is reverting to name calling and ad-hominem statements. And a large chunk of this apologist’s arguments are interweaved with personal attacks against Dan.
I truly enjoy watching Dan swat away all these ill-prepared apologetic responses; I think they may be my favorite videos. It's especially gratifying to watch him completely dismantle the rude and indignant apologists that cherry-pick facts from a Wikipedia page on ancient biblical texts and then believe they're a real PhD. (It's a cherry on top if the apologist is an actual PhD, but from a conservative evangelical school with no accreditations.)
Dan, kudos to you for keeping it civil. I'd be hard pressed to do so in similar circumstances. It's a testament to your patience that you're able to do it.
This "creator" is the exact person I think of when Dan types his disclaimer about not "harassing or commenting" on someone else's page. His smarmy and sanctimonious tone is driving me bananas.
Dude is way too hostile. Obviously he likes flexing his ignorance with arrogance.
What I can deduce is that Dan did not respond in a single setting but at least two settings. This is based upon the shirt changes (Spiderman vs Batman). This tells me that Dan carefully made sure that he articulated his position, as well as understood the argument from the apologists. He not only provided us with greater insight. He provided us with a teaching example of how we should respond in all matters.
Thanks Dan.
.. the batman shirt was from a previous video that the other dude was reacting to. You have Dan reacting to a reaction video, which is why there's 2 shirts.
@@tsalVlog That just proves that I am not observant. Thanks
@@KimbaIsHere observant people miss details all the time, you’re good :)
I'm pretty sure that Dan wrote the Book of Daniel...
😂👍
😂
Yeah, that creator should reflect on the way he approaches conversation and debate. He never offered any data, just insults and fan-fictions.
Have him on for a debate/discussion.
Good job Dan
That would be ugly for the other guy.
Nah. Let's not reward his arrogance & uncharitability
That would be a gross waste of Dan’s time
You remaining calm really speaks for your interest in the matter and the facts.. That dude really needs to calm down.
God is supposedly omnipotent, but somehow he needs an army of apologists to defend him. (Seems a bit suspect… 🤔) Oh, and he always needs money. Lots and lots of MONEY!!!
😂👍
He sure sounds angry😂 must be hitting close to his heart.
Ah, the same person who defended biblical slavery in one of Dan's earlier videos. Why am I not surprised? 😐
Dan McClellan, I admire your continued informed calmness, in the face of these unapologetic apologist reality deniers.
It's frustrating to think that this insulting dogmatist's audience will mostly never see your comprehensive response video.
Confidence is a dangerous tools for people who don't earn it. Well done Dan
It’s like a kid arguing with the other kids (who know Santa isn’t real) that they’re stupid and “of course he’s real. How else to presents get to the end of my bed?”
End of my bed? Presents go under the tree my guy
@@brennantsullivan It’s not up to me, you’ll need to raise it with Santa.
The apologist, despite his struggles with logic and kindness, still exposed some areas that benefitted from the clarification in this video.
I think we are now much better prepared for Papias enthusiasts.
Papias described his own methodology as ,to paraphrase, repeating what people claimed if they claimed it came from the Lord. He delighted only in those who taught the “truth”, which implies that he thought he knew the truth already and filtered out testimony that didn’t match what he already believed.
Sounds like Christianity modelled itself on the guy. Basically the apex Bigot.
@@ErraticFaith All the Bible authors were propagandists. Bigotry and oppression are inherent to the Bible, too.
I don't remember who it was, but one of Papias' contemporaries described him as a man of "remarkably little intellect".
@@DoloresLehmann Eusebius. He's not a contemporary but wrote several centuries later
@@soarel325 Thanks!
Great line. Imagining a scenario!
I don't know how you managed to even response to this video. You're infinitely more patient than I am.
All that personal attacks already say everything. He knows he is wrong, so he chooses rhetorical violence.
Good stuff! Who was the other person and what are his credentials?
When you need something to be true - you do whatever it takes.
Thank you Dan. I deeply appreciate your engagement. Your scholarship is a blessing to academia.
I have to say. I am impressed that you kept your cool, explained how the other creator was wrong, and did not resort to any personal attacks on the other creator. Honestly, it makes it seem ae though you Dan, are on the side of logic and believability. Everyone who attacks you in this matter is just mad that you know more, and are taking their ball and going home so to speak..
Nicely done.
its awesome to see that they at least started learning your vocabulary hahahah
Dan way to keep it classy! Love this. They draw me closer to Jesus Christ.
Honestly, you have the patience of a saint, man!
Wow, hats of for staying calm in the face of "this creator".
This apologist's entire approach can be summarized as "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." Thank you, Dan, for pulling back the curtain and allowing us to assess the data for ourselves.
If you think "data" is behind the curtain, then keep pulling up curtains.
If Peter consulted Mark on the construction of his gospel, its intriguing that this gospel is missing key elements like: the virgin birth and the post resurrection appearances of Jesus.
Its interesting that Papias would prefer hearing tales from elders over the gospels. If the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, they're immediately more preferable than elders including elders that were eyewitnesses. Memory fails overtime and his work is dated to about 95-110 AD. This wouldve made John the Elder 89 years old if John the Elder was the Apostle John and our ideas of his age are accurate. Pretty sure an apostle like Matthew writing 15 or so years earlier wouldve had a better memory than John who was older at the time. And it seems like Papias' ideas of what occurred based off oral tradition contradicts scripture so ig Papias heard eyewitness Elder testimony that heavily contridicts what this guy says Matthew, Peter, Paul, and John claimed. Theres no way you get what he said about Judas any other way.
Keep plucking those strings Dan. I enjoy seeing apologists flustered.
I hope he gets the help he needs
Dan Shows us the difference between a serious scholar and a faithful apologist who works backward from a conclusion and will not move off that conclusion, no matter the data that contradicts that conclusion.
I appreciate how Dan says he thinks or it is his theory.
Dan, you might be a modern day prophet to teach the world the TRUTH of the Bible. I'm not gonna state that as a fact, but it's what I believe. Peace be with you, God bless!
Dan on point as always
The usage of personal attacks by this other creator really undermines their credibility. If they want to be taken seriously, they need to stick to the data.
Love your videos Dan
Whoever this UA-cam guy is that Dan is refuting, he just goes to prove that religious faith is the abandonment of reason for the comfort of belief.😂
If the other creator has anything useful to say I cant tell, because Im so distacted by how rude he was, resorting to personal attacks and insults instead of arguing his points and ideas.
Always fun to see apologists be this confidently incorrect 😂
Could you make a video about the apologists involved in the writing of the Bible, up to the current Bible?
Well said Dan
Gin up: To exaggerate. To stir up, stimulate, enliven, incite.
In case anyone else was curious about this phrase.
When you can't pound the facts you pound the theories. When you can't pound the theories you pound the facts. When you can pound neither the theories nor the facts you pound the table. And this apologist is pounding the table.
For what it’s worth, I think one of the frustrations I have sometimes with Dan’s videos comes down to their length and often just their lack of citations. I really like it when he actually cites his sources and couches his language with the uncertainty that befits interpreting historical data, but I often feel when I’m watching a Dan video (even if his interpretations might well be supported by data) that the videos are too short. They don’t necessarily show that he knows what he is talking about and it can sometimes feel, to me anyway, as if he is making a lot of statements without laying down the data first. Again, though, I think it’s almost inevitable with ten minute videos like this.
People are not interested in data but rather the results that data brings out. Much like people who go to church but don’t bother to read the Bible and prefer for someone else to explain convoluted writings of a different language translated to today’s. That’s my issue with God. He had a perfect method to communicate with people, the burning bush.
Dan, I love how you ignore the Ad-homenims These apologists sling at you.
I do the same. Attack the argument, not the argumentor.
What is there to say about apologists (or just any Christian) believing that logic is a trick of the devil?
so how do we know who wrote Daniel, or Isaiah....???
Well done!
Love that Spider-Man shirt
No one responds in kind. When academics argue it is about the grey areas where one makes logical, educated deductions based on where they consider the evidence is pointing. Debate can be heated. The people who criticise Dan don’t seem to even know how to debate interpretations of evidence. They are only scratching the surface. Most only refer to one source and that is the source in question! It was good that this guy had some knowledge but, you know, maybe the Dunning Kruger effect is in play if he thinks he can speak on behalf of academia.
resorting to insults during a debate means you already lost. I salute you brother Dan🖖
So, is it more likely that Papias refers to Q and gThomas, when he talks about these gospels of his?
Probably Q if anything
"So, is it more likely that Papias refers to Q and gThomas, when he talks about these gospels of his?"
-----------when the early church fathers specify what language Matthew wrote in, they are unanimous that it was Hebrew. Yet they never specify that he wrote a second original in Greek. We are thus reasonable to insist that canonical Greek Matthew doesn't come to us from Matthew, but from some yet-unknown translator.
@@Tom-j4v7f The more reasonable stance is that canonical Greek Matthew has no relation to the Hebrew Matthew that Papias talked about - the name was simply assigned to it based on the Levi/Matthew name change and that's it.
@@soarel325 Sure, but when you debate an apologist, there is an advantage to allowing as many of their assumptions as possible. By crediting Hebrew Matthew to the apostle of the same name, I allow for their belief that Matthew authored something. The more common ground you can find with an apologist, the stronger he will perceive your justifications for rejecting the gospel. There is no such thing as completely objective argumentation. Mammals gravitate toward others with whom they have common ground, and they discount arguments from those with whom they have very little common ground.
@@Tom-j4v7f Ah, if you're talking from a strategic POV that makes sense
Do you do any apologetics for the Mormon Church. "Alright, lets see it."
Debate any believer (in any dogma) and it becomes a reduction, until their only argument left is faith itself. Blind faith at that. I don't begrudge anyone for resorting to blind faith in anything, if it helps them. As long as it doesn't impact me negatively, I'm good. My one blind faith is that a higher power exists. Trying to understand this power is a fool's errand, whose work product is all the religious writings and resultant dogmas down through the ages.
As I said in a comment in the original video, Christians have no good evidence for their authorship claims for any of the gospels. The best that they can do is come up with unsupported scenarios about how it is *plausible* that the assigned authors wrote the gospels. If they had good authorship evidence, they would simply present that, instead of coming up with ever more outlandish rescue mechanisms for their beliefs. In this case, being very butt-hurt while doing so.
I understand disagreement but does this guy have to be so icky about it? Intense is one thing but this is more than that? Is he even a scholar?
Psst. Dan. Not everyone is worthy of a reply.
Thos one definitely is. Dan's response was very educational.
I actually felt sorry for this creator as he called out your name and you proceeded forward with detached discipline. You have persuasively impacted his beliefs. More deeply, he likes you and he doesn't know what to do with his beliefs or feelings. I give this creator one of the higher grades on engagement because, unlike so many you disassemble into the pit of "utter nonsense," this sweet fellow knows you have the superior argument.
These types of responses are to be expected when scholarship pokes holes in the beliefs of a particular conspiracy such as Christianity
This is why I don’t listen to apologists. I prefer a reasoned approach, without the conclusion already being decided
I always wondered why, in fiction, when there was a protagonist that was supremely over-powered that the antagonist(s) would still press their attack on them even though they should have known there would be only one outcome.
So, you know, some poor schmuck sidekick punching Batman. It always seemed ridiculous that someone would, with full knowledge beforehand, pick a fight they could not win.
I was sure that this would not happen in real life. And then it does 🤣
That man is just insufferably rude. Good grief.
Even if I knew nothing about Dan and if this had been my first video about conflicts in biblical scholarship, I am for sure going to be against the one who keeps saying the other one is stupid and being generally insulting
people should realizes by now that marcion started the gospel tradition either by writing, redacting or collecting the very first gospel in existence and ten letters of paul thus starting the concept of a christian canon and stating later that the other christians added to it to make it more jewish to tie it up with judaism thus earning the respect of greco roman people who tolerates ancient religion and has disdain for new supersttitions like neo platonic christianity
I'm not sure why youtube is removing my comments. I've been trying to ask about the Papias reference and whether it actually says that (i am sire it does, but i was trying to point to a History Valley video which shows the quote where it doesnt appear to say quite that). I'll put the History Valley link in a separate reply below this one and see if iy works this time. It's very relevant to this because it's John Kloppenborg talking about Papias and how tjat might be a reference to Q.
Link below, unless youtube deletes it again.
🤘
Yup he dismantled you with facts nothing was imagined
Great assertion. Now you just need to back it up
Yes which 'facts' please list them
@@PhilSophia-ox7ep Dan just actually dsnt know if the names are the authors. Some people think mark was the young man who saw Jesus get arrested, Dan would probably say there’s no evidence, that clearcut evidence just dsnt exist. He would actually have to know why the names were used to actually know why the names were used. Even if the names were added later dsnt mean they weren’t the authors, it’s that simple
That poor guy is stressed right out 😅
I'm afraid this creator is getting roundly hammered on social media for his lack of research.
He's attacked Islam using a similar approach and should feel embarrassed at the results
Oh good. Hopefully the Jihad will put us out of our misery.
Whoever makes too much hand gesture just to convince something. Most of the time they are either lying or nervous. As psychology suggest
Fairly accurate. Lunatics like this are pretty much harmless - as they discredit themselves easily with what you've said. The ones to watch out for however are the sweet talkers. So in a way this sort of thinking does have a flaw. In that you can be lead into thinking a calm and reasonable sounding person; is a good one. I mentioned it in another comment; but this is just like Ravi Zacharias. 40 years in 'apologetics' but struck off for being an abusive, blackmailing, sex pest and rapist.
Beware the talented. Guys like this are...ironically lol... an 'embarrassment to academia'
Whatever apologists say their beliefs are based upon hearsay - and hearsay is the worst type of evidence
It’s clear that the he is simply responding out of a need to be opposed to what you said, for no other reason then to fire up his followers in a quest to “protect the truth” aka dogma.
Can someone identify the angry dogmatic unprofessional individual in glasses whom Dan addresses in this vid? I’d like to pay a visit to their account and see what other unhinged nonsense they’re spewing under the guise of “spreading facts.”
Unfortunately, despite plainly having been trained how to do so, McClellan doesn't bother to cite his sources. The expectation and duty to provide a source for the original is no different on UA-cam than it is in academia. This intellectual failing is really my only gripe with his work but it is an issue.
Am I the only one that finds all the text onscreen irritating?
We also know that Shakespeare probably didn't write all of the poetry and plays attributed to him, maybe none of it. And while this is historically interesting, it says nothing at all about the value of the writings.
@8:59
Did he say wet dream theory? what?
He's making the assertion that this theory fits Dan's desires, and that Dan is blinded by what he wants to believe so as to miss out on what the evidence portrays.
It's textbook projection.
Yeesh the ad hominem attacks show the insecurity of the argument. Keep playing it cool Dan!
As a Christian, I have no issue with accepting that the authors of the Gospels are anonymous. To me, it makes the most sense. I would never attribute my name to a work that would have me executed.
He "made" the argument talking about tags and cover pages......🤔
Creators like that one and his haughty attitude turns me off to anything that he might have to say. No wonder people are leaving the church.
Tags and cover pages? 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Anyone who has to wag their fingers as air quotes isn't a person whose opinion can be relied on. It's juvenile.