@DBDMotorsports The term "atom" in ancient context refers to an abstract concept of something so small that it can not be cut to smaller pieces. The scientific atom which refers to element in its most basic form is only named after the ancient concept.
While you are correct, I beg the question, how is that different? If you read the book, it is actually cautionary about dividing the atom, and we all know how that works out. While I can agree that the idea of a banana atom is wholly stupid I think we can both agree that the logic and intuition necessary to understand that the universe is shaped like a loaf of bread having never looked through a telescope or understanding that gravity must exist or that things are composed of small indivisible things is mind blowing. That it occured to the greeks thousands of years ago is a testament to the human mind and to the power of logic.
The only problem with Aristotle was his belief that he could discover the truth thru reason alone without experimentation,so he got a lot wrong.His contributions to logic and critical thinking were essential.Since the church condemned the ideas of Kepler,Copernicus,and Galileo,as heresy,I would say that science progressed despite Christian culture.
He's talking about "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius. Written in the 5th century CE, this Epicurean masterpiece remained buried in a monastic library for a millennium until a book-hunting humanist named Poggio Bracciolini rediscovered it and unleashed its intellectual tsunami on the world.
Imagine that, well over 2000 years ago, Lucretius, through his revolutionary poetic works, promulgates the idea that the universe operates according to physical principles by fortuna, "chance," and not the divine intervention of the traditional Roman deities. And now,more than two thousand years later, we live in the so-called Age of Science, and religion with its superstitions and myths is still allowed to flourish and keep humankind in darkness. Embarrassing!
Humanity in general to me, at least recently, is obsessed with wanting to be able to know everything and explain it, it seems to have this belief that it can eventually understand everything. What's going to happen if someday down the road we find that this isn't true?
Us? During the Dark ages in Europe my people in Andalus (spain), Baghdad, and Damascus were living in the gold ages, living in a time of revolution and innovation in science, medicine, atronomy, mathematics, philosiphy, artchitecture, ect..... Eurocentrism and all the enlightenment praice/crap has no room in science.
i agree, but those people see such a narrowed view of our world. not only do they ignore other religions, but they dont show them any respect. I think of most of the religions as a great thing to learn about, because they are a key factor in creating our society today. the point im getting at, is that no matter what religion you are, you should be respectful to everyone else's beliefs. It will only make everyone happier.
@neurel111 exactly that's what I said it's a vague concept. So you cannot consider it as atoms because as I said then it would be something measurable/accountable which contradicts the concept of the soul. We say that the soul exists ''inside'' us or that it is hidden in a way. The best example is that we say that the soul of the human is supposed to leave his body to go to another place after he dies. This is not atoms evaporating into the air, it's something metaphysical, it can't be observed
True, the Christian church opposed any idea that contradicted scripture. I find it somewhat ironic that the light of learning and science still shown in islamic countries at the same time
He says the poem, by Lucretius, titled On the Nature of Things. If you missed that, review the piece again and find if there is more that you missed as well.
i read the book and a world of peace it really make sense but we have evil and an world split by countries,, never really sold well in China or Poland just a name few countries
@aalkanan I was talking about specific examples of personality changes due to severe injury or external chemical influences; not every change in the brain results in a change in personality. Though I'm certain that your personality has changed a great deal since elementary school. I think it's highly related because the terms "soul" and "conscious experience" are synonyms as far as I'm concerned, but maybe your definition is different. Can you tell me what you mean when you use the word "soul"?
@SuperLizardBean It depends largely on the definition of soul. Every fact I've ever been told about souls has been a description of the Cartesian theater. Cognitive science indicates that our conscious experience of the world is a product of our brain processes. From that point on, it's easy to connect the dots: if brains are made of atoms, then their compartments definitely are, so you're right. People who claim that the brain can survive its own death have the burden of proof resting on them.
@StephanieRoze i wasnt talking about individuals and their individual faith. even if you are an atheist, you have been raised in an western environment that taught you that helping others is good, hurting others is bad. Now no matter if you come to the conclusion that there is no god, the moral understanding of the world was brought to you by our christian culture, if we replace these values by relativity, where good and evil are a matter of definition, thats where it becomes dangerous
In addition there is quite good evidence that the personality does not reside in some spirit who's existence is independent of the body for its existence, and that is that the personality can change with injuries to the brain, which is part of the body.
I have this feeling that in a lot of youtube videos comments is happening the vastest debate of human history, everything is debatable and questioned here, everything is revised, from music tastes to the most fundamental philosophical questions. Whether this arguments will lead somewhere, only time will tell, but in my opinion is the healthiest thing we can do :D
I really wish I knew what this poem was. The speaker here came close ... so close with the soul, so I would say that there is no such thing as immaterial matter and that the soul is matter itself, but is more refined that the matter we're aware of now. It will never disintegrate. I really wish I knew what this poem was.
what i dont understand, is how does a poem go from being circulated and having (from what i gathered) many thousands of copies, to only 2 or 3? all because of the downfall of an empire?
Yes and wars and natural events. And also imagine books disintegrate after 200 years so had to be constantly copied. They they didn’t believe in public libraries until 1400s. All the books controlled by the monasteries. The swerve book goes further into detail !
Christians destroyed almost eveything from the materialist philosophical tradition. This is why Lucretius almost disappeared, this is why nowadays we have only fragments from Democritus, but the whole dialogues of Plato, even if both of them were equally popular in their life times.
Don't know about others but my religion teaches that Spirit is matter and that the Soul is a extant form of a material body in concert with a material spirit. Just because something is "spiritual" or beyond sensory perception does not define it as immaterial. Though the philosophy described definitely uses materialism to justify an atheistic view, that same materialism is one of a few reasons I believe my religion. In the simplest terms, there is nothing which is not matter.
@aalkanan If it's not discovered, then you don't get to say "its existence is agreed upon". Assuming something exists isn't the same as demonstrating its existence.
My point exactly. I never said the soul did not exist. I said what if it were imaginary. It is true we don't know exactly know what consciousness is or if it is even real or only illusion. But I have seen no objective empirical evidence for the existence of a soul independent of the body. I have heard that quote by Einstein (one of my idols) many times, but I prefer LaPlace, "we have no need of God for our hypothesis" (parphrase)
He can't say that a creator doesn't exist, he hopes one doesn't exist. The reason is because humanity has only discovered a small percentage of the world, let alone the universe. So the day that humans fully understand everything about everything then they can say such a statement.
You also forgot about Democritus, who is mentioned heavily in Aristotle's writings and was denounced by Aristotle. So it was Democritus who influenced Kepler Copernicus and Galileo.
@FireMark78 because if no one believed in a "high power" and everyone believed that everything was just made on its own through science, then a majority of the people would not care if they did "wrong things" that would exclude them from being excepted into heaven. Those people would not care about rules and have the mindset that "who are you to tell me what I can and can't do". That is my though behind my previous statement.
@Provoker7 and about my assumption, i agree that everything "discovered" is made from atoms, but maybe there are things that is smaller than that and we can't see them, maybe on other dimentions! - but the smallest thing we know is atoms so we end up make generlizations about things that aren't even discovered yet but its existance is agreed like "soul". (again: my understanding is, soul "maybe" life energy not self-awareness)
Consider reading Lucretius' The Nature of Things as well as Montaigne's Essays. Should be able to find them on Project Gutenberg as free (public domain) e-books.
it wouldn't really matter, would it? the soul is still the I in "I think; therefore, I am." the soul is what "steers" very real bio-electric charges along neural strands and across specific synapses to produce thoughts. the voice you hear as you are reading these words is your soul's voice; the same voice you hear as you write your words. even if it only exists within the scope of human imagination, it indisputably exists, and can can directly and indirectly affect the physical universe.
There is art, culture and hope independent of religion. In addition it of a quite better quality, because it is a celebration of life, not a longing for death and the things to follow, which is quite an unhealthy position to take and damaging to humanity.
@aalkanan I used to be a muslim, now I'm an atheist (or as my imam would say, kāfir). The words "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" used to mean something to me, but not anymore. I discovered that there are many ways to be a good person without god, and everything that has ever been said to me about kufr has been based on incorrect assumptions of where our morals comes from. I'm saying this because I want you to know that I understand what you think a soul is.
Don't forget my favorite, the children's crusade, when the pope decide we weren't having success freeing the holy land from the infidel because in our pride we were sending warriors to do the job which wouldn't have given God enough credit so he decided to send children. Might have worked, I guess, except the children were all sold into slavery in Constantinople. Gotta love Christian morality
@MrAnthonyVance I agree, except with the term "allowing" religion to flourish. Outlawing religion leads to thought police, and that's bad for free thought. What we need is to freely hold values in our society which discourage faith-based beliefs, or at least acting on them or enforcing anyone else to. I don't ever think society will ever be totally one side or another, but I'd like the religious side to be a lot smaller.
religion gives us art, culture and hope... so to be an atheist, is actively trying to make a group of people unhappy. Sure it has caused some wars and misinterpretations of reality, but it was for the better. dont hate religion, just dont believe in it, and accept everyones other beliefs, because it is what satisfies them. im personally non-religious.
But it is not necessary to work under that sweeping declaration. To what authority did Lucretius appeal? He could have prefaced the poem by saying this is how the Creator has ordered nature, and it would in no way affect his utterances.
@flowgoode Thank you for sharing. I understand where you are coming from, having been raised protestant christian I was taught that humans were born sinful and only the Jewish son of the carpenter Joseph and Mary could forgive that sin and gain salvation. I no longer believe this so I have to disagree with you. Humans do not need a "Higher Power" to be good.
Imagination is formed in the consciousness but what does that have to do with the reality or non-reality of the soul which could be entirely fictitious which would make it imaginary
@MrIan3333 Evolution doesn't describe the origin of life. Evolution takes place when life has already formed. And you'd be surprised how well life can change over 4 and a half million years of evolution.
@bishoptutuspants Those things were "rediscovered" early, 1100-1200, and had implications. Rediscovering Aristoteles (Toledo translations school) made a deep impact in philosaphical thinking and also started a long "war in religion" that we still have.. Lucretius opended another door that already was ajar
Not that I am a huge fan of religion, but I would be more worried about the lawyers deciding who it is ok to kill or the attack helicopters than the chaplains, just saying.
@aalkanan I forgive you. I don't see any difference between your use of the words "self-awareness" and my use of the words "conscious experience", so I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already said. As for you saying the soul isn't made of atoms: the burden of proof rests on you, friend. Everything we've ever discovered in the human body has been made of atoms. Just because the Quran says a soul isn't a material thing, doesn't mean you have to believe it. The Quran isn't always right.
@neurel111 ok true they are not comparable. I just wanted to show you how some concepts cannot be measured, they are not tangible as u said. Therefore you cannot say that something intangible is built by atoms. Something that does not have a physical presence.
we cant make moral rules and systems now without believing in judgement in afterlife, a lot of people (too many probably) will not be able to follow them because of the deep and dark instinct everyone has inside of themselves. i think it is important for the general public to believe in a kind of "higher law", otherwise for example "the perfect murder" will never be detected if not by the police and therefor it becomes an option... and that is very dangerous
@aalkanan Strokes can also cause it, and many forms of long-term drug use. A Google search for "severe personality changes" will give you an abundant list of cases. In all of these cases, a person's soul (insofar as it relates to conscious experience) is altered by physical or chemical causes, and there's nothing that indicates that this soul can survive the death of the brain. This makes a compelling case that the soul is made of atoms.
because the idea that the forms of living things can change (aka evolution) has been around for far longer then how long its been accepted. Darwin didn't invent it
@ProgPower32 nah, I think the night sky it's self is the source of belief, You ever seen the stars without light pollution ? You can accually see where in the galaxy you are. It's well trippy, yet extremely beautiful, I think younger humans would of had a hard to trying to understand that nothing created that beauty it just appeared over time.
@Provoker7 first i wasn't presume anything, i was quoting from Quran!, my mistake! forgive me please! - and about self-awareness as i added after that reply, it dosen't fully covering the "soul" explaination but i believe it is still valid to some extent! - for example, a coma could lead to the absence of self-awareness but you still have "soul"!, therefore, i mean by "soul" the life energy! yes that is more accurate! - finally, you still didn't tell me how that "concious experience" is related?
@abebjj1 Even though there is lack of God, morality still exists. "fuck it ima do whatever i want now! this poem ruless" If we are not beholden to a God, then we are beholden to each other.
@TukenNuken Well, like you said. It's very complex. And when people can't comprehend certain things, they put God into it. But you're just giving an extremely simple answer, to an extremely complicated question.
I'm a muslim and i disagree with manythings he said (im not sure weather he's believing in it or just showing it). For instance he said the soul is made from atoms also nothing need providence!!!! These two are very big info. with absolutly no evidence supporting it and cann't be proved! - but i like his passion :)
@jonmichaeljordan those moral codes however came from religon. not only that however sceintically speaking we should eliminate depressed people or those with that disposition to further evolution in removing them from the gene pool. ( not that i would :D )
But the soul is not made out of atoms because it's not something physical. We do not even know if it exists. If it indeed was made out of atoms it would be something that we could observe, something measurable. Now it's just an abstract term that cannot even be defined properly. So that thing he says is wrong.
what kind of troll are you referring to? it really depends ... i do feed off knowledge that is limited and on top of that i use my imagination to improve my power way of thinking so i know my theory is correct my theory is that there are a infinitive amount of gods they tend to hide themselves and watch the problem answer itself - - they do it for the right reasons ... in gods we trust.T
@Theroha That'd be cool. Or you ever think that this is just a more dream and we will wake up one day and be like "Dude, I had a wierd dream. I was on this planet called Earth and..."
@VoloBonja You actually have a video uploaded on jumping above a doll with a skateboard and you are trying to tell who is an inteligent person? Am i the only one who think that's ridicoulos?
Indeed! Where would China or Japan have been without Lucretius? Still in the Dark Ages, right? (Or, maybe that's not what you meant by "dragged us out of the Dark Ages"?) Big Think (Europe)!
I appreciate the analysis but isn’t the discovery and effect of Lucretius’ poetry and thought contingent on key people of the time being ready willing and able to pick it out and use it? And then didn’t that mindset, arise because of whatever was going on in 1417 and the years leading up to it? How did that evolve so that people read the book and had their aha moment? (Do intellectual trends or zeitgeist or history slide into new eras or snap in?) I assumed when clicking this video that this was about Dante Alighieri’s mind-blowing Commedia of 1396, which was like a cannon shot of ‘the Dark Ages’. And Epicureanism had survived in the monasteries themselves...as Prof Greenblatt surely knows.
@parkouras93 The concept of a soul is a vague one, if you say it is not physical then what is it? The burden is yours to show that it exists otherwise you would have to accept numerous other pointless claims. He clearly meant that the soul (probably the mind) if exists is no exception and is also made of atoms. If you think about it carefully you will soon discover that your memories is probably the closest thing to soul you will ever have, for without them if a soul exists it is useless.
@Provoker7 how is that even related - sorry but i don't get it?. Although, so what you're trying to say is if, let say i slept and woke up to find that i cann't remember any one from my elementary school or i can't remember anything from last month, for any reason, so thats mean my brain has changed so my personality and im no longer me! - in this case, excuse me sir, you're totally wrong!
@bennyOnDrugs I like to think souls exist, and not just in humans. Even if the after-life is only temporary, just imagine what new discoveries might await a consciousness no longer restrained by its physical existence. If this life & this body are so full of the wonders & pleasures we find in it, what would it be like to be free? If I'm wrong, I hope I have lived my life to the fullest, and if I'm right, death will be an awfully big adventure.
This is one of the most inspirational videos I've encountered. Greenblatt so beautifully conveys the majesty and influence of lucretius's philosophy.
The Swerve is so beautifully written, so moving. It inspires me to want to read the poem, not only in English but someday, I hope, in Latin.
I picked up the swerve about a year ago but have not yet read it. I am inspired by your opinion.
@DBDMotorsports The term "atom" in ancient context refers to an abstract concept of something so small that it can not be cut to smaller pieces. The scientific atom which refers to element in its most basic form is only named after the ancient concept.
While you are correct, I beg the question, how is that different? If you read the book, it is actually cautionary about dividing the atom, and we all know how that works out. While I can agree that the idea of a banana atom is wholly stupid I think we can both agree that the logic and intuition necessary to understand that the universe is shaped like a loaf of bread having never looked through a telescope or understanding that gravity must exist or that things are composed of small indivisible things is mind blowing. That it occured to the greeks thousands of years ago is a testament to the human mind and to the power of logic.
The only problem with Aristotle was his belief that he could discover the truth thru reason alone without experimentation,so he got a lot wrong.His contributions to logic and critical thinking were essential.Since the church condemned the ideas of Kepler,Copernicus,and Galileo,as heresy,I would say that science progressed despite Christian culture.
He's talking about "On the Nature of Things" by Lucretius. Written in the 5th century CE, this Epicurean masterpiece remained buried in a monastic library for a millennium until a book-hunting humanist named Poggio Bracciolini rediscovered it and unleashed its intellectual tsunami on the world.
Written in the 1st century BC, rather.
@@njits789 Written by Poggio himself, rather.
No, @@kuklama0706 , No. Poggio did not write the poem himself.
Dude you just restated everything he said in the video
Lucretius lived in the 1st century BC.
Imagine that, well over 2000 years ago, Lucretius, through his revolutionary poetic works, promulgates the idea that the universe operates according to physical principles by fortuna, "chance," and not the divine intervention of the traditional Roman deities. And now,more than two thousand years later, we live in the so-called Age of Science, and religion with its superstitions and myths is still allowed to flourish and keep humankind in darkness. Embarrassing!
Carl Sagan wrote a book called "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark"
Humanity in general to me, at least recently, is obsessed with wanting to be able to know everything and explain it, it seems to have this belief that it can eventually understand everything. What's going to happen if someday down the road we find that this isn't true?
Us? During the Dark ages in Europe my people in Andalus (spain), Baghdad, and Damascus were living in the gold ages, living in a time of revolution and innovation in science, medicine, atronomy, mathematics, philosiphy, artchitecture, ect..... Eurocentrism and all the enlightenment praice/crap has no room in science.
i agree, but those people see such a narrowed view of our world. not only do they ignore other religions, but they dont show them any respect. I think of most of the religions as a great thing to learn about, because they are a key factor in creating our society today. the point im getting at, is that no matter what religion you are, you should be respectful to everyone else's beliefs. It will only make everyone happier.
Keep in mind, in the time this poem was written, it was thought atoms were the limit of reality.
Stephen Greenblatt is a pleasure to listen to.
@neurel111 exactly that's what I said it's a vague concept. So you cannot consider it as atoms because as I said then it would be something measurable/accountable which contradicts the concept of the soul. We say that the soul exists ''inside'' us or that it is hidden in a way. The best example is that we say that the soul of the human is supposed to leave his body to go to another place after he dies. This is not atoms evaporating into the air, it's something metaphysical, it can't be observed
True, the Christian church opposed any idea that contradicted scripture. I find it somewhat ironic that the light of learning and science still shown in islamic countries at the same time
“Nature is constantly experimenting” I like that
He says the poem, by Lucretius, titled On the Nature of Things.
If you missed that, review the piece again and find if there is more that you missed as well.
Wonderful and amazing information !!! ~ Thank you !!!
i read the book and a world of peace it really make sense but we have evil and an world split by countries,, never really sold well in China or Poland just a name few countries
The swerve is an amazing book!
@aalkanan
I was talking about specific examples of personality changes due to severe injury or external chemical influences; not every change in the brain results in a change in personality. Though I'm certain that your personality has changed a great deal since elementary school.
I think it's highly related because the terms "soul" and "conscious experience" are synonyms as far as I'm concerned, but maybe your definition is different. Can you tell me what you mean when you use the word "soul"?
@SuperLizardBean
It depends largely on the definition of soul. Every fact I've ever been told about souls has been a description of the Cartesian theater. Cognitive science indicates that our conscious experience of the world is a product of our brain processes. From that point on, it's easy to connect the dots: if brains are made of atoms, then their compartments definitely are, so you're right.
People who claim that the brain can survive its own death have the burden of proof resting on them.
@StephanieRoze i wasnt talking about individuals and their individual faith. even if you are an atheist, you have been raised in an western environment that taught you that helping others is good, hurting others is bad. Now no matter if you come to the conclusion that there is no god, the moral understanding of the world was brought to you by our christian culture, if we replace these values by relativity, where good and evil are a matter of definition, thats where it becomes dangerous
In addition there is quite good evidence that the personality does not reside in some spirit who's existence is independent of the body for its existence, and that is that the personality can change with injuries to the brain, which is part of the body.
This is just staggering. Can't get over it!
I have this feeling that in a lot of youtube videos comments is happening the vastest debate of human history, everything is debatable and questioned here, everything is revised, from music tastes to the most fundamental philosophical questions. Whether this arguments will lead somewhere, only time will tell, but in my opinion is the healthiest thing we can do :D
I really wish I knew what this poem was. The speaker here came close ... so close with the soul, so I would say that there is no such thing as immaterial matter and that the soul is matter itself, but is more refined that the matter we're aware of now. It will never disintegrate. I really wish I knew what this poem was.
what i dont understand, is how does a poem go from being circulated and having (from what i gathered) many thousands of copies, to only 2 or 3?
all because of the downfall of an empire?
Yes and wars and natural events. And also imagine books disintegrate after 200 years so had to be constantly copied. They they didn’t believe in public libraries until 1400s. All the books controlled by the monasteries. The swerve book goes further into detail !
Christians destroyed almost eveything from the materialist philosophical tradition. This is why Lucretius almost disappeared, this is why nowadays we have only fragments from Democritus, but the whole dialogues of Plato, even if both of them were equally popular in their life times.
Wonderful. Thank you.
Don't know about others but my religion teaches that Spirit is matter and that the Soul is a extant form of a material body in concert with a material spirit. Just because something is "spiritual" or beyond sensory perception does not define it as immaterial. Though the philosophy described definitely uses materialism to justify an atheistic view, that same materialism is one of a few reasons I believe my religion. In the simplest terms, there is nothing which is not matter.
@aalkanan
If it's not discovered, then you don't get to say "its existence is agreed upon". Assuming something exists isn't the same as demonstrating its existence.
if everyone believed what he says, the world would be in anarchy and chaos.
My point exactly. I never said the soul did not exist. I said what if it were imaginary. It is true we don't know exactly know what consciousness is or if it is even real or only illusion. But I have seen no objective empirical evidence for the existence of a soul independent of the body. I have heard that quote by Einstein (one of my idols) many times, but I prefer LaPlace, "we have no need of God for our hypothesis" (parphrase)
He can't say that a creator doesn't exist, he hopes one doesn't exist. The reason is because humanity has only discovered a small percentage of the world, let alone the universe. So the day that humans fully understand everything about everything then they can say such a statement.
You also forgot about Democritus, who is mentioned heavily in Aristotle's writings and was denounced by Aristotle. So it was Democritus who influenced Kepler Copernicus and Galileo.
See 4:14
Great speach
I want to read the poem... any link?
@FireMark78 because if no one believed in a "high power" and everyone believed that everything was just made on its own through science, then a majority of the people would not care if they did "wrong things" that would exclude them from being excepted into heaven. Those people would not care about rules and have the mindset that "who are you to tell me what I can and can't do". That is my though behind my previous statement.
"It is appointed unto man once to die, then comes judgment."
@Provoker7 and about my assumption, i agree that everything "discovered" is made from atoms, but maybe there are things that is smaller than that and we can't see them, maybe on other dimentions!
- but the smallest thing we know is atoms so we end up make generlizations about things that aren't even discovered yet but its existance is agreed like "soul". (again: my understanding is, soul "maybe" life energy not self-awareness)
Consider reading Lucretius' The Nature of Things as well as Montaigne's Essays. Should be able to find them on Project Gutenberg as free (public domain) e-books.
it wouldn't really matter, would it? the soul is still the I in "I think; therefore, I am." the soul is what "steers" very real bio-electric charges along neural strands and across specific synapses to produce thoughts. the voice you hear as you are reading these words is your soul's voice; the same voice you hear as you write your words. even if it only exists within the scope of human imagination, it indisputably exists, and can can directly and indirectly affect the physical universe.
and where is the link to this poem?
There is art, culture and hope independent of religion. In addition it of a quite better quality, because it is a celebration of life, not a longing for death and the things to follow, which is quite an unhealthy position to take and damaging to humanity.
@aalkanan
I used to be a muslim, now I'm an atheist (or as my imam would say, kāfir). The words "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" used to mean something to me, but not anymore. I discovered that there are many ways to be a good person without god, and everything that has ever been said to me about kufr has been based on incorrect assumptions of where our morals comes from.
I'm saying this because I want you to know that I understand what you think a soul is.
Don't forget my favorite, the children's crusade, when the pope decide we weren't having success freeing the holy land from the infidel because in our pride we were sending warriors to do the job which wouldn't have given God enough credit so he decided to send children. Might have worked, I guess, except the children were all sold into slavery in Constantinople. Gotta love Christian morality
@Provoker7 self-awareness is not completly discribing it - but to some extent it might be true!
@MrAnthonyVance I agree, except with the term "allowing" religion to flourish. Outlawing religion leads to thought police, and that's bad for free thought. What we need is to freely hold values in our society which discourage faith-based beliefs, or at least acting on them or enforcing anyone else to. I don't ever think society will ever be totally one side or another, but I'd like the religious side to be a lot smaller.
religion gives us art, culture and hope... so to be an atheist, is actively trying to make a group of people unhappy. Sure it has caused some wars and misinterpretations of reality, but it was for the better. dont hate religion, just dont believe in it, and accept everyones other beliefs, because it is what satisfies them. im personally non-religious.
But it is not necessary to work under that sweeping declaration. To what authority did Lucretius appeal? He could have prefaced the poem by saying this is how the Creator has ordered nature, and it would in no way affect his utterances.
Good point, also the effects long term drug and alcohol abuse can have on the peronality
@MarkArandjus it says page is not found?
@iziahtopete1992
look up the 4 words on google:
"classics carus nature things"
the first link will lead you the poem. There's even a download link.
@flowgoode Thank you for sharing. I understand where you are coming from, having been raised protestant christian I was taught that humans were born sinful and only the Jewish son of the carpenter Joseph and Mary could forgive that sin and gain salvation. I no longer believe this so I have to disagree with you. Humans do not need a "Higher Power" to be good.
I love THE SWERVE.
Imagination is formed in the consciousness but what does that have to do with the reality or non-reality of the soul which could be entirely fictitious which would make it imaginary
@MrIan3333 Evolution doesn't describe the origin of life. Evolution takes place when life has already formed. And you'd be surprised how well life can change over 4 and a half million years of evolution.
@youthank8 It takes me about an hour or so to read more or less 500 lines, 800 on a good day. I'm a slow reader :( How many lines is this poem?
Time well spent
@bishoptutuspants Those things were "rediscovered" early, 1100-1200, and had implications. Rediscovering Aristoteles (Toledo translations school) made a deep impact in philosaphical thinking and also started a long "war in religion" that we still have..
Lucretius opended another door that already was ajar
@SuperLizardBean Did you put w w w in front of it? Don't, it's the exact URL.
atoms clashing together to make complex forms. lol, never heard it like that before.
Not that I am a huge fan of religion, but I would be more worried about the lawyers deciding who it is ok to kill or the attack helicopters than the chaplains, just saying.
The answer to who it is ok to kill seems to be the same in all cases - whoever disagrees with them.
He was one of the first people to give viable evidence for it.
He simply rediscovered it, right?
@dojokonojo Oh never mind its 7400 lines lol. It should take me around 14.8 hours then. However it's shorter than the Aeneid.
@flowgoode I would like to read your reasoning for this statement, if you have one.
@aalkanan
I forgive you. I don't see any difference between your use of the words "self-awareness" and my use of the words "conscious experience", so I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already said. As for you saying the soul isn't made of atoms: the burden of proof rests on you, friend. Everything we've ever discovered in the human body has been made of atoms. Just because the Quran says a soul isn't a material thing, doesn't mean you have to believe it. The Quran isn't always right.
@inmate..skittles smashing together at atomic speed..a truly tremendous discovery
@neurel111 ok true they are not comparable. I just wanted to show you how some concepts cannot be measured, they are not tangible as u said. Therefore you cannot say that something intangible is built by atoms. Something that does not have a physical presence.
we cant make moral rules and systems now without believing in judgement in afterlife, a lot of people (too many probably) will not be able to follow them because of the deep and dark instinct everyone has inside of themselves. i think it is important for the general public to believe in a kind of "higher law", otherwise for example "the perfect murder" will never be detected if not by the police and therefor it becomes an option... and that is very dangerous
But if it is a lie, it will only corrupt.
Anaximander, Anaxagoras, Aristotle, and even the native Americans believed in some sort of evolution.
@TukenNuken The ultimate answer is 42.
@EntropicBeat De Natura Rerum by Lucretius... I've heard other scientists refer to it, I've got to read it some day.
@aalkanan
Strokes can also cause it, and many forms of long-term drug use. A Google search for "severe personality changes" will give you an abundant list of cases. In all of these cases, a person's soul (insofar as it relates to conscious experience) is altered by physical or chemical causes, and there's nothing that indicates that this soul can survive the death of the brain.
This makes a compelling case that the soul is made of atoms.
because the idea that the forms of living things can change (aka evolution) has been around for far longer then how long its been accepted. Darwin didn't invent it
Analogues to everything in Lucretius can be found in the Bible, especially the New Testament.
examples and verses, please?
@@CosmosJack See LUCRETIUS and THE NEW TESTAMENT.
@ProgPower32 nah, I think the night sky it's self is the source of belief, You ever seen the stars without light pollution ? You can accually see where in the galaxy you are. It's well trippy, yet extremely beautiful, I think younger humans would of had a hard to trying to understand that nothing created that beauty it just appeared over time.
@Provoker7 first i wasn't presume anything, i was quoting from Quran!, my mistake! forgive me please! - and about self-awareness as i added after that reply, it dosen't fully covering the "soul" explaination but i believe it is still valid to some extent! - for example, a coma could lead to the absence of self-awareness but you still have "soul"!, therefore, i mean by "soul" the life energy! yes that is more accurate! - finally, you still didn't tell me how that "concious experience" is related?
@abebjj1
Even though there is lack of God, morality still exists.
"fuck it ima do whatever i want now! this poem ruless"
If we are not beholden to a God, then we are beholden to each other.
@TukenNuken Well, like you said. It's very complex. And when people can't comprehend certain things, they put God into it. But you're just giving an extremely simple answer, to an extremely complicated question.
Where might somebody find it, does it have a title?
On the nature of things by Lucretius. You can download it for free on project Gutenberg.
how nice we only to read this book to survive yeah right!
I'm a muslim and i disagree with manythings he said (im not sure weather he's believing in it or just showing it). For instance he said the soul is made from atoms also nothing need providence!!!! These two are very big info. with absolutly no evidence supporting it and cann't be proved! - but i like his passion :)
Who says there's a soul in the body? and yes if there is of coarse it's going to be made out of atoms
@jonmichaeljordan those moral codes however came from religon. not only that however sceintically speaking we should eliminate depressed people or those with that disposition to further evolution in removing them from the gene pool. ( not that i would :D )
Thankyou Professor Greenblatt. I erroneously thought I hated you. Sorry.
Atomic materialism. Atoms swerving through the void.
But the soul is not made out of atoms because it's not something physical.
We do not even know if it exists. If it indeed was made out of atoms it would be something that we could observe, something measurable. Now it's just an abstract term that cannot even be defined properly. So that thing he says is wrong.
What was the poem damn it!!!
on the nature of things - lucretius
what kind of troll are you referring to? it really depends ... i do feed off knowledge that is limited and on top of that i use my imagination to improve my power way of thinking so i know my theory is correct my theory is that there are a infinitive amount of gods
they tend to hide themselves and watch the problem answer itself - - they do it for the right reasons ... in gods we trust.T
Who did it before him? Besides Lucretius.
@Theroha That'd be cool. Or you ever think that this is just a more dream and we will wake up one day and be like "Dude, I had a wierd dream. I was on this planet called Earth and..."
@ProgPower32 great with the force you are.
Kinda like when Mendelssohn revived Bach?
@VoloBonja You actually have a video uploaded on jumping above a doll with a skateboard and you are trying to tell who is an inteligent person? Am i the only one who think that's ridicoulos?
@TukenNuken whether you like it or not, there is a scientific explanation that doesn't require a deity
Indeed! Where would China or Japan have been without Lucretius? Still in the Dark Ages, right? (Or, maybe that's not what you meant by "dragged us out of the Dark Ages"?)
Big Think (Europe)!
I appreciate the analysis but isn’t the discovery and effect of Lucretius’ poetry and thought contingent on key people of the time being ready willing and able to pick it out and use it? And then didn’t that mindset, arise because of whatever was going on in 1417 and the years leading up to it? How did that evolve so that people read the book and had their aha moment? (Do intellectual trends or zeitgeist or history slide into new eras or snap in?) I assumed when clicking this video that this was about Dante Alighieri’s mind-blowing Commedia of 1396, which was like a cannon shot of ‘the Dark Ages’. And Epicureanism had survived in the monasteries themselves...as Prof Greenblatt surely knows.
@parkouras93
The concept of a soul is a vague one, if you say it is not physical then what is it? The burden is yours to show that it exists otherwise you would have to accept numerous other pointless claims. He clearly meant that the soul (probably the mind) if exists is no exception and is also made of atoms. If you think about it carefully you will soon discover that your memories is probably the closest thing to soul you will ever have, for without them if a soul exists it is useless.
@itsJaeger
Are you sure you replied to the right person? What you said doesn't really counter or even relate to what I just said.
@Provoker7 how is that even related - sorry but i don't get it?. Although, so what you're trying to say is if, let say i slept and woke up to find that i cann't remember any one from my elementary school or i can't remember anything from last month, for any reason, so thats mean my brain has changed so my personality and im no longer me! - in this case, excuse me sir, you're totally wrong!
@VIRTLANTIS every time i try that link, it shows me a 404 page.
@bennyOnDrugs I like to think souls exist, and not just in humans. Even if the after-life is only temporary, just imagine what new discoveries might await a consciousness no longer restrained by its physical existence. If this life & this body are so full of the wonders & pleasures we find in it, what would it be like to be free? If I'm wrong, I hope I have lived my life to the fullest, and if I'm right, death will be an awfully big adventure.