I have the Screwfix model looking like the one pictured (bought three and a half years ago. The reading for a nine hour charge on the display used to show kWh properly, but about a year ago the amount charged dropped, suggesting that charging stops and resets for a small period. It works well on the Zoe inside the garage using sockets from a 2011 re-wiring. i expect i will find the cut out if I investigated in the middle of the night. Perhaps the course of action, as in all of these cases, will to be buy a new lead some time.
Not only the max amperage is important but also the ground fault detection should be considered. The advised max AC leak current should be 300 mA and the DC leak current should be 6 mA, both according to type B, not to be confused with a B characteristic of a breaker.
Mine does 6,8 and 10 amps selectable. I rarely use it, except in holiday cottages with owner permission and I turn it down to 6 amps. Used to use it on 6 amps to charge from my solar panels on surplus days, but now it is better to just export surplus at 15p/unit and charge at night for 7p/unit.
I never use granny chargers. The lowest I charge on is 7kw. I cannot charge at home so mainly either use the Tesco Pod Poi8nt chargers a 2 minute walk from where I live or the MER Rapid chargers a few miles from me but much faster..
Agreed - I only use my EVSE in a couple places (my parents house for example) but I explicitly got a 10A EVSE without selectable current to make sure I cannot accidentally select 13A. I wish there was an EVSE that will allow you to select 6,8 and 10 only but it isn't really a thing I could find, hopefully someone can prove me wrong.
Hi yes, any extra connection would add risk. You can feel the plug/adapter after 30 mins / 1 hour / 2 hours to check it’s not getting warm. The socket itself would be fine as eu shuko sockets can take 16A max, 13A continuous.
@ thanks. I have a 10amp Tesla charger but will check the adapters anyway- we have a large stock of adapters so can swap them if getting warm. We will be staying with friends in a very rural location so granny charging will be desirable 👍
On another note the Zoe I used to have was very fussy about chargers in general and I ended up having three BP Charge master wallbox units before I got one that worked consistently
In my dad's garage, all the Schuko needed replacement after about 4 years charging a Citroen Saxo and a Peugeot Partner electrique (the old cars NiCd battery, 13A continuous for about 6 or 8 hours) We have upgraded to the blue 16A CEE Herr is still using those for his plug-in hybrid and ebike
@garycevrepairs yes they had, in the saxo we tried replacing a few 6v packs, if we managed to put it back together without leaking coolant (it was water cooled battery pack as well as liquid acid, what a mess) So if it was running for few hundred miles after replacing a pack or two, it didn't last long until the next pack was weak. 🤦✌️ And a weak cell led to higher load on the others, which killed them sooner or later. And we also had to refill distilled water for the cell acid a few times, and we replaced the motor brushes! It had a DC motor with 11KW rated 🤷😂
@@MrKOenigma Absolute garbage! The so-called 'memory effect' does not exist, as has been proved. What actually happened was voltage depression caused by overcharging, which is exactly what the early chargers did because they had no delta-v detection or any charge management. Just don't overcharge them and there won't be a problem.
Maybe a solution is to cut the plug and fit a commando plug of 16amp rating these are the blue plugs and sockets used in factories for single phase elec.and the sockets have a spring lid that gives ip42 protection .which you don't have with 13 amp . Have worked on a building site where builders have used 13amp and it very alarming the amount of electric shocks they get.luciky I check that the RCD trips under 100ms
Interesting idea, you have to be careful if you want to remove the plug in case it does have a temp sensor inside. I repaired a granny cable for someone who had a damaged plug and cut it off but then found the extra wires! I managed to cut the plug open (it was a moulded all in one type) and retrieve the temp sensors, fit them into a “tough plug” and repair the wires. Quite a job but interesting and it worked! Cheers
@garycevrepairs good point it will be a rtd so just a resolder job in new plug ok if your an engineer but not for DIY. Love your channel as a c&I engineer seeing how relatively simple EVs are I find each video enlighting but personally not going for level 3 qualification
Also the Charing rate can be controlled by resistors between ground and CP pin. But this is not really DIY . But open evse is an interesting source of information for the qualified.
Please note that Zoe has very inefficient charging at low powers - about 75% of energy goes into the battery. So the 10A EVSE draws about 2.3kW from the grid, but about 2kW goes into the battery.
Similar for Kia/Hyundai models, at 1.3kW charging is only around 69% efficient and at 7kW it's 94% efficient. This is a combination of the inherent losses in charging a lithium ion battery of maybe 2-3%, plus the more or less fixed loss in the onboard charger, overall it's around 400W. The vehicle's software quite accurately accounts for this when it estimates charging time.
Efficiency loses, heat, noise, running ecus, water pumps… no circuit is 100% efficient, just like your tv is warm at the back, it’s losing some of the power it takes in. As he says the Zoe is particularly inefficient at low amps, it’s a downside of its ability to do faster ac charging. Cheers
Came here to say this. Better for the planet and wallet, in the long run, to get a proper charger installed. If you are plugging and unplugging the charging lead, you'll eventually wear the wall socket and connection resistance will increase. Suddenly and arrangement which has worked fine for years can melt on you.
Bought a £10 granny charger which looked new @ car boot, Someone had fitted a 15amp fuse and it had started to melt , cleaned up and 13 fuse used on a descent socket and still works fine . P.S. find it REALLY annoying that the Zoe charging can’t be adjusted 😠
15 amp isn't a be standard plug top fuse, so there could be anything inside a fuse that is marked as that. A 13 amp fuse is designed to melt at 20 amps continuous draw. Heating is proportional to the square of the current draw (I²R), so there is 1.7x the heating at 13 amps vs 10 amps. Heating will always occur on the fuse because it is intentionally a point if high resistance. The problems happen when there are poor (high resistance) joins elsewhere but nearby (e.g. wire to plug, wire to socket or plug to socket). That's why the EVSE types which have a temperature sensor in the plug are a must. Mike Harrison ("Mikeselectricstuff") has a video on his channel from a few years ago where he goes through all of the safety features that an EVSE is supposed to have, whilst testing a couple of cheap imported models.
@ yes surprised me, I’d never seen one but a assumed the previous owner had just had trouble ( maybe his socket) and uprated the fuse with 🤞. It was a cheap chink charger but seems to work OK . My BMW issued charger has a 10 amp fuse
No mention of the dangers of PEN faults - Level 2 chargers (e.g. Zappi) have PEN fault detection which will cut power to the car if tripped - otherwise, unless the car is inside in a garage, the rising voltage on neutral compared to true earth will turn the car outside into a return path ... through you if you touch it.
Shucko user here (continental Europe). For the last 4 years (ze50), I have been using a 16a 3 pin charger (3.6kw). Covered 95% of my mileage (43kkm) using the 3 pin charger. The power on mine is not adjustable. Here is my 2c. You have to be very very careful and check the temperature of the socket/plug until you are positive about the quality of the pairing. On a good quality socket, I am fine with leaving it overnight - no issues whatsoever. Extension cords are a really bad idea, unless you have an amazing quality one. Also, NEVER, NEVER use an extension cord on a reel. On one occasion, I used an extension cord on a reel without thinking much (kind of emergency charging), and it completely melted after only 1 hour - to the point of fire hazard (it melted so badly that the reel completely fell off the carrier, and wires short circuited deep inside, causing the circuit breaker to trip). I do own a 3 phase charger (22kw), but in most cases elect NOT to use it, as loss of a single phase and then restoration of power on it WILL cause a major short circuit in a Zoe. Also 8h overnight 3.6kw charge works well for me - to get me to the desired 80%, and on top of that I use the low rate of electricity when charging overnight.. Also according to some tests, single phase 16a charging on zoe is the most efficient one. I have not conducted them myself, so not positive about this.
Hi interesting. I would have thought the most efficient charging on a Zoe is high amps as it has relatively high fixed losses though haven’t tested it, will do when I have time. Once a Zoe starts charging on 3 phase if one phase trips it would likely stop charging and not restart. It configures the charging system for single or 3 phase and I doubt it would reconfigure for the loss of a phase, but it would take a brave person to be the first to test it! Ideally your 3 phase circuit breaker should cut all 3 phases if there is an issue with a single phase. Cheers
@@garycevrepairs According to a friend of mine (who used to work for Continental as an engineer, and AFAIK Renault variants use the exact same system), restoration of a phase causes a short circuit as the vehicle has indeed reconfigured for a single phase charging (depends a bit on which phase has dropped , and then restored). The end result is usually an onboard relay being weld shut (in a closed state) (and car being chargeable only on a single phase AC?). I have seen a few examples of this happening on forums. Have you encountered anything similar? The only proper thing to do is use "Phase order and balance" detector in a combination with a 3 phase contactor. The device should work such that you need to short press a button to "start" (turn on the contactor), the "order and balance" device is "happy" having all 3 phases present, and then it holds the contactor engaged, after the button is released. Loss a phase even for a very short time, would cause "imbalance" the contactor would loose the power, and entire device would go off until turned on by a another button press.. (and would hold the contactors engaged only if all three phases are present)
@@garycevrepairs PS Not sure why single phase 16a is the sweet spot for efficiency. The same friend was doing the measurements, and since they were based on percentages shown by Zoe, could be taken with a pinch of salt. Agree with your logic re water pump/electronics losses. All of this is obviously only relevant with sufficiently low ambient temperatures (AC and most fans off most of the time).
Hi if the car starts charging single phase because a phase is missing and then that phase is added then yes it would be bad but if it starts charging successfully on 3 phase using all the phases then loss of a phase is unlikely to cause an issue other than stop it charging. Cheers
@@garycevrepairs My understanding is that on (at least certain versions of) ZOE if it looses a phase, it will revert to a single phase charging - which is the major issue. I have not tried that myself. Not brave enough :D What I absolutely do know, is that my car - if it looses (single phase charging) ac, and then it comes back it will eventually resume charging. Same could be applicable on 3 phase loss (blackout for whatever reason), and then restoration of phases - one by one.. Wrong order could cause deadly consequences.
I am a little surprised 13A is considered dangerous on the UK's comically large plugs when the humble 14-15s of decent quality can do 12A continuously perfectly fine. I borrowed my mother's Bolt EV the last time I visited a friend out of town, charged at his place at 12A and the plug was still barely lukewarm after 20h of charging. From the examples of failed UK plugs I have seen, the biggest problem in the UK appears to be built-in fuses melting the plugs when the load/fault takes too long to blow it. A pretty silly problem to have IMO.
In Germany we have no fuses in the "Schuko" plug. Many people think (even electricians) but it's only tested for 1h-2h on 16A. Long term usage should not exceed 10A
@@thelaserhive3368 The point wasn't about how much power can be pushed through the outlet, it was about UK outlets having comically low current-handling capacity for their size. If you want 240V in NA in a general-purpose format, there are the 6-15 and 6-20. Up to 16A continuous at 240V in the same footprint as a 14-15.
I would never use such crap. Home wall outlets are not designed for these long running 100% loads. The Dutch 16A circuits at least limit some current, the UK32A loop systems let you abuse that outlet to thermonuclear temps 🙂
Hi Gary,
Thanks. That’s why I converted all outdoor 13 amp outlets to 16 amp commando sockets and 4mm cables to the consumer unit.
Great idea
I have the Screwfix model looking like the one pictured (bought three and a half years ago. The reading for a nine hour charge on the display used to show kWh properly, but about a year ago the amount charged dropped, suggesting that charging stops and resets for a small period. It works well on the Zoe inside the garage using sockets from a 2011 re-wiring. i expect i will find the cut out if I investigated in the middle of the night. Perhaps the course of action, as in all of these cases, will to be buy a new lead some time.
Thanks for the explanation, i know that already.... But of course this is quite important to most people❤❤
Not only the max amperage is important but also the ground fault detection should be considered. The advised max AC leak current should be 300 mA and the DC leak current should be 6 mA, both according to type B, not to be confused with a B characteristic of a breaker.
Mine does 6,8 and 10 amps selectable. I rarely use it, except in holiday cottages with owner permission and I turn it down to 6 amps.
Used to use it on 6 amps to charge from my solar panels on surplus days, but now it is better to just export surplus at 15p/unit and charge at night for 7p/unit.
Hi Gary - I have a Vivaro near York which has stopped AC charging but will still take DC charge. Are you able to look at it please?
Hi I’m not close I’m afraid, is there a hevra garage near who will take it on? Cheers
@That’s great Gary, I’ve found a couple nearby. Many thanks!
I never use granny chargers. The lowest I charge on is 7kw. I cannot charge at home so mainly either use the Tesco Pod Poi8nt chargers a 2 minute walk from where I live or the MER Rapid chargers a few miles from me but much faster..
Agreed - I only use my EVSE in a couple places (my parents house for example) but I explicitly got a 10A EVSE without selectable current to make sure I cannot accidentally select 13A.
I wish there was an EVSE that will allow you to select 6,8 and 10 only but it isn't really a thing I could find, hopefully someone can prove me wrong.
The variable ones aren’t common unfortunately, and some are 13Amax which isn’t much good. Even a 8/10A would be handy. Cheers
@ True, the fact 13A exists on some UK sold chargers if I recall may be incorrectly sold.
Question. Do adapters for use in EU add to the risk when the granny charger is connected through them?
Hi yes, any extra connection would add risk. You can feel the plug/adapter after 30 mins / 1 hour / 2 hours to check it’s not getting warm. The socket itself would be fine as eu shuko sockets can take 16A max, 13A continuous.
@ thanks. I have a 10amp Tesla charger but will check the adapters anyway- we have a large stock of adapters so can swap them if getting warm. We will be staying with friends in a very rural location so granny charging will be desirable 👍
On another note the Zoe I used to have was very fussy about chargers in general and I ended up having three BP Charge master wallbox units before I got one that worked consistently
In my dad's garage, all the Schuko needed replacement after about 4 years charging a Citroen Saxo and a Peugeot Partner electrique (the old cars NiCd battery, 13A continuous for about 6 or 8 hours) We have upgraded to the blue 16A CEE Herr is still using those for his plug-in hybrid and ebike
Wow the Saxo and Partner electric are proper old school EVs! They had flooded nicad packs iirc?
@garycevrepairs yes they had, in the saxo we tried replacing a few 6v packs, if we managed to put it back together without leaking coolant (it was water cooled battery pack as well as liquid acid, what a mess)
So if it was running for few hundred miles after replacing a pack or two, it didn't last long until the next pack was weak. 🤦✌️
And a weak cell led to higher load on the others, which killed them sooner or later. And we also had to refill distilled water for the cell acid a few times, and we replaced the motor brushes! It had a DC motor with 11KW rated 🤷😂
The battery should always be empty before charging, because of the memory effect. And then it should be charged completely to 110%
@@MrKOenigma Absolute garbage! The so-called 'memory effect' does not exist, as has been proved. What actually happened was voltage depression caused by overcharging, which is exactly what the early chargers did because they had no delta-v detection or any charge management. Just don't overcharge them and there won't be a problem.
@DelticEngine that explanation absolutely helps me a lot today, thanks
It's scary how many will just vehemently disagree if you ever bring this up in the groups on Facebook etc
Maybe a solution is to cut the plug and fit a commando plug of 16amp rating these are the blue plugs and sockets used in factories for single phase elec.and the sockets have a spring lid that gives ip42 protection .which you don't have with 13 amp .
Have worked on a building site where builders have used 13amp and it very alarming the amount of electric shocks they get.luciky I check that the RCD trips under 100ms
Interesting idea, you have to be careful if you want to remove the plug in case it does have a temp sensor inside. I repaired a granny cable for someone who had a damaged plug and cut it off but then found the extra wires! I managed to cut the plug open (it was a moulded all in one type) and retrieve the temp sensors, fit them into a “tough plug” and repair the wires. Quite a job but interesting and it worked! Cheers
@garycevrepairs good point it will be a rtd so just a resolder job in new plug ok if your an engineer but not for DIY. Love your channel as a c&I engineer seeing how relatively simple EVs are I find each video enlighting but personally not going for level 3 qualification
Also the Charing rate can be controlled by resistors between ground and CP pin. But this is not really DIY . But open evse is an interesting source of information for the qualified.
Yes indeed modifications are possible but for people to explore for themselves if qualified as you say.
Charge rate is signaled with pulse width modulation. Mike Harrison's videos are a good reference @mikeselectricstuff
@Tim_Small thanks I will have a look
Please note that Zoe has very inefficient charging at low powers - about 75% of energy goes into the battery. So the 10A EVSE draws about 2.3kW from the grid, but about 2kW goes into the battery.
Where does the other 300W go
Similar for Kia/Hyundai models, at 1.3kW charging is only around 69% efficient and at 7kW it's 94% efficient. This is a combination of the inherent losses in charging a lithium ion battery of maybe 2-3%, plus the more or less fixed loss in the onboard charger, overall it's around 400W. The vehicle's software quite accurately accounts for this when it estimates charging time.
Efficiency loses, heat, noise, running ecus, water pumps… no circuit is 100% efficient, just like your tv is warm at the back, it’s losing some of the power it takes in. As he says the Zoe is particularly inefficient at low amps, it’s a downside of its ability to do faster ac charging. Cheers
Came here to say this. Better for the planet and wallet, in the long run, to get a proper charger installed. If you are plugging and unplugging the charging lead, you'll eventually wear the wall socket and connection resistance will increase. Suddenly and arrangement which has worked fine for years can melt on you.
@@alanbenson9626 The plug and cable get hot for starters.
Bought a £10 granny charger which looked new @ car boot, Someone had fitted a 15amp fuse and it had started to melt , cleaned up and 13 fuse used on a descent socket and still works fine . P.S. find it REALLY annoying that the Zoe charging can’t be adjusted 😠
15 amp isn't a be standard plug top fuse, so there could be anything inside a fuse that is marked as that. A 13 amp fuse is designed to melt at 20 amps continuous draw. Heating is proportional to the square of the current draw (I²R), so there is 1.7x the heating at 13 amps vs 10 amps. Heating will always occur on the fuse because it is intentionally a point if high resistance. The problems happen when there are poor (high resistance) joins elsewhere but nearby (e.g. wire to plug, wire to socket or plug to socket). That's why the EVSE types which have a temperature sensor in the plug are a must. Mike Harrison ("Mikeselectricstuff") has a video on his channel from a few years ago where he goes through all of the safety features that an EVSE is supposed to have, whilst testing a couple of cheap imported models.
@ yes surprised me, I’d never seen one but a assumed the previous owner had just had trouble ( maybe his socket) and uprated the fuse with 🤞. It was a cheap chink charger but seems to work OK . My BMW issued charger has a 10 amp fuse
No mention of the dangers of PEN faults - Level 2 chargers (e.g. Zappi) have PEN fault detection which will cut power to the car if tripped - otherwise, unless the car is inside in a garage, the rising voltage on neutral compared to true earth will turn the car outside into a return path ... through you if you touch it.
Shucko user here (continental Europe).
For the last 4 years (ze50), I have been using a 16a 3 pin charger (3.6kw). Covered 95% of my mileage (43kkm) using the 3 pin charger. The power on mine is not adjustable.
Here is my 2c. You have to be very very careful and check the temperature of the socket/plug until you are positive about the quality of the pairing. On a good quality socket, I am fine with leaving it overnight - no issues whatsoever.
Extension cords are a really bad idea, unless you have an amazing quality one.
Also, NEVER, NEVER use an extension cord on a reel. On one occasion, I used an extension cord on a reel without thinking much (kind of emergency charging), and it completely melted after only 1 hour - to the point of fire hazard (it melted so badly that the reel completely fell off the carrier, and wires short circuited deep inside, causing the circuit breaker to trip).
I do own a 3 phase charger (22kw), but in most cases elect NOT to use it, as loss of a single phase and then restoration of power on it WILL cause a major short circuit in a Zoe. Also 8h overnight 3.6kw charge works well for me - to get me to the desired 80%, and on top of that I use the low rate of electricity when charging overnight..
Also according to some tests, single phase 16a charging on zoe is the most efficient one. I have not conducted them myself, so not positive about this.
Hi interesting. I would have thought the most efficient charging on a Zoe is high amps as it has relatively high fixed losses though haven’t tested it, will do when I have time. Once a Zoe starts charging on 3 phase if one phase trips it would likely stop charging and not restart. It configures the charging system for single or 3 phase and I doubt it would reconfigure for the loss of a phase, but it would take a brave person to be the first to test it! Ideally your 3 phase circuit breaker should cut all 3 phases if there is an issue with a single phase. Cheers
@@garycevrepairs According to a friend of mine (who used to work for Continental as an engineer, and AFAIK Renault variants use the exact same system), restoration of a phase causes a short circuit as the vehicle has indeed reconfigured for a single phase charging (depends a bit on which phase has dropped , and then restored). The end result is usually an onboard relay being weld shut (in a closed state) (and car being chargeable only on a single phase AC?).
I have seen a few examples of this happening on forums. Have you encountered anything similar?
The only proper thing to do is use "Phase order and balance" detector in a combination with a 3 phase contactor. The device should work such that you need to short press a button to "start" (turn on the contactor), the "order and balance" device is "happy" having all 3 phases present, and then it holds the contactor engaged, after the button is released. Loss a phase even for a very short time, would cause "imbalance" the contactor would loose the power, and entire device would go off until turned on by a another button press.. (and would hold the contactors engaged only if all three phases are present)
@@garycevrepairs PS Not sure why single phase 16a is the sweet spot for efficiency. The same friend was doing the measurements, and since they were based on percentages shown by Zoe, could be taken with a pinch of salt. Agree with your logic re water pump/electronics losses. All of this is obviously only relevant with sufficiently low ambient temperatures (AC and most fans off most of the time).
Hi if the car starts charging single phase because a phase is missing and then that phase is added then yes it would be bad but if it starts charging successfully on 3 phase using all the phases then loss of a phase is unlikely to cause an issue other than stop it charging. Cheers
@@garycevrepairs My understanding is that on (at least certain versions of) ZOE if it looses a phase, it will revert to a single phase charging - which is the major issue. I have not tried that myself. Not brave enough :D
What I absolutely do know, is that my car - if it looses (single phase charging) ac, and then it comes back it will eventually resume charging.
Same could be applicable on 3 phase loss (blackout for whatever reason), and then restoration of phases - one by one.. Wrong order could cause deadly consequences.
I am a little surprised 13A is considered dangerous on the UK's comically large plugs when the humble 14-15s of decent quality can do 12A continuously perfectly fine. I borrowed my mother's Bolt EV the last time I visited a friend out of town, charged at his place at 12A and the plug was still barely lukewarm after 20h of charging.
From the examples of failed UK plugs I have seen, the biggest problem in the UK appears to be built-in fuses melting the plugs when the load/fault takes too long to blow it. A pretty silly problem to have IMO.
Don’t forget you have half the UK mains voltage. A 10Amp charge for the UK would be 20A in the USA for equivalent power levels…..
In Germany we have no fuses in the "Schuko" plug. Many people think (even electricians) but it's only tested for 1h-2h on 16A. Long term usage should not exceed 10A
@@thelaserhive3368 The point wasn't about how much power can be pushed through the outlet, it was about UK outlets having comically low current-handling capacity for their size.
If you want 240V in NA in a general-purpose format, there are the 6-15 and 6-20. Up to 16A continuous at 240V in the same footprint as a 14-15.
@@teardowndan5364The UK plug is barely warm at 10A continuous, just don't use the cheap imported copies.
I would never use such crap.
Home wall outlets are not designed for these long running 100% loads.
The Dutch 16A circuits at least limit some current, the UK32A loop systems let you abuse that outlet to thermonuclear temps 🙂
32A ring circuits are considered overkill now, 22A radial circuits seem to be common now where it’s only connected at one end!