JKD Instructor Explains What's Wrong With Kali
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- Опубліковано 19 лют 2022
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I don't hate Fullmetal Alchemist
I love that anime
Same
@87Tamago卵 Ed, let's play!
İt's a really good anime ngl
😂😂😂
I'm a Filipino and I've been practicing FMA for a year. I ask my "Tuhon" (equivalent to Karate 'Sensei') why it is getting hated by other martial practitioners, is because 'Kali' or FMA is not standardized, unlike Karate, Judo or BJJ, it doesn't have a governing body or an organization that actually maintains the quality of the art. My country is separated by a thousand islands and there are probably a hundred schools that are fundamentally the same but practices differently. One specific technique can be done differently depending on which school or 'lineage' you are from, unfortunately most of them focuses on flashy move set rather than practical application. So when foreigners came to my country and study the art, they make the mistake that this is 'style' is the same for all other schools, which is not. I've enrolled to other schools to observe and I saw of a lot of them as flashy as f*ck like Donnie Yen in Ip-man, very entertaining but not so much for practically. I've been told one time by a "Tuhon" from another school, that my form is "wrong" and they've been teaching wrong techniques.
Another problem about FMA that some schools prohibit their members to capture video of their practices and upload it on social media. As they say some schools might "copy" their technique and incorporate that into their system. Most FMA schools are not so good in sharing and refining the art, like adapting what is useful, rejecting what is useless.
However, a decent FMA school will teach you how to end a fight or immobilized an opponent in split second with very basic movements like poking your enemy's eye, kicking in the groin or utilizing simple items like a car key as a weapon. One mistake that most foreigners think about FMA, that STICKS are the main weapon, sticks are only used for practice, for flow exercise, like Tai-Chi which is a martial art that is completely useless in self-defense but is a very good wellness exercise. In FMA (at least according to my school) everything that you can quickly grab at your disposal can be made a weapon, be it a car key, a pencil and even your backpack. The reason why sticks are the preferred choice for the practice because the flow can be adapted to other method of your choice. Here in the Philippines you will not see much prolonged fights, most fights are done in a split second, in some cases the victim won't even have time to react. Most of the time an unlucky person get stab by someone who has a knife concealed in a newspaper (because most weapons here are usually concealed or everyday items) or you get into fight in a very small enclosed pathway which we call here "eskinita" which an average American won't even fit. A decent FMA will teach you resourcefulness and adaptability or most likely to avoid these situations.
End point here is that not all FMA schools are the same and not all are equal. Some just practices flashy move sets because they look cool and they bring alot of foreigner which means alot of MONEY. Sticks are not the main system but are for practice and improving your flow, whilst everything else at your disposal can be used for self-defense.
Good points in your video btw though, good job in pointing out the flaws. Keep up in posting videos. :)
Hello Giorno! You're right, I've trained different forms of Eskrima and the most practical versions/traditions/lines were all very simple and straight-forward and without any of the flashy movements. I learned to thrust to the eyes, heart, head etc. basically to the vital organs of the human body (like in medieval European fencing, the main target was the head and body). My teacher told me that practical Eskrima "has to be very fast and straight to the point, because the Philippines are too hot to have heated combat for long periods of time" (sic). The problem is the same with most martial arts: people confuse stage combat with actual combat. I've been to at least a dozen different schools in Europe and the USA and all with one exception taught the flashy stage stuff. The flashy stuff is so predominant outside of the Philippines that it isn't exaggerated to say that it is the best to completely avoid most Eskrima schools (unless one wants to learn impressive looking, highly complicated stage movements, but those don't work irl). I personally believe that most people should learn from Cacoy Canete, his style was simple but highly effective!
@@Shiresgammai Balintawak, Pekiti Tirsia and Lapunti are the one of the simplest ones to learn for FMA
@@panthraxofficial you seem to have forgotten Doce Pares.
@@panthraxofficial yawyan
there's also very effective self defense here in the Philippines called sayonatsi or sayo na tsinelas ko then run as fast as you can to escape from the enemy.
I trained in jkd, Kali, sambo and French savate in Krause's martial arts in Glasgow. We learned how to adapt and fight to win. I don't disregard any martial art cos someone is always gonna beat you no matter who you are. The arrogant man suffers defeat worse than a humble man. Respect dudes. And dudettes.
Dude, that’s a good mix of chosen martial arts!
If you trained sambo at Krause, you didn't train sambo.
@@nickbrooks3054 true. 21 years ago now, but some places are better than others. I went where it was available. I have t trained since then. Long time. Now I train in beer Olympics and hardcore football watching. 🍺😀
When training any one of those styles in Europe you don't get to experience "a real fight" the rule system is way to restricted. Boxing or MT could humble you in the same way. :)
Try that to a Wing Chun Practitioner. Boxing for only one year can help you beat up as "master"
I do both Kali and Gumdo (Korean swordsmanship). We do the roof/umbrella block all the time in gumdo, just two handed. It seems like it works better with a two handed weapon like a katana or long sword. I've done a number of martial arts the last 20 years and as a woman, I find Kali the most practical. I'm not going to be able to outbox most dudes. And some of the joint locks and throws are without question are harder against a bigger opponent. But knives do like to cut.
It's always funny that we're in an era where anyone teaching or commenting on self-defense or martial art techniques have to clarify that techniques have risks and rewards or that fights aren't going to look perfect, so the moves may change in actual use, but the concept is there and overlap with a variety of variations, which is why you're learning it.
Yuuuup
But it makes more money to declare an entire martial art as bullshit and falsely accuse people of being cult leaders.
Because if you show an isolated technique in a teaching scenario some “trick f@cker” with three MMA classes will be quick to post, “that would never work in a real fight!” Or, “but what if I did this?”
It's a double edged sword but some techniques are for ultra specific scenarios.
@William Smith
My first teach, in the early 80's, loved "what if" questions. He always smiled and said, "show me." Then would proceed to throw them to the ground with a slam and say, "that's what if. But TODAY we are working on this other technique."
Always fun to watch...
As an FMA practitioner, I’m happy ya’ll made this video. A lot of schools mix in too much fluff and frill. Also, there is a really harsh reversal to that first snake technique that made me decide to stop using it often. And I’ve always hated roof blocks because they feel risky as hell.
Yeah, the snake has some devastating counters. The Roof is super risky and tricky. But I love it
For me, the roof block works as I avoid the strike by stepping to the side. But if I just stand there as I block, I deserve the hit to my noggin.
@@da.reverend Understandable, and that's how I was taught. But it's risky compared to other blocking techniques that are available. Plus, many of my training partners are about 5-7 inches shorter than me at least lol.
Variations of the roof are found in Western swordplay. It is safer and more effective when integrated with movement and/or companion weapons.
In Escrima Concepts, there's a number of different roof blocks, but the one that we teach to beginners has the roof block horizontal (if the attack is bearing straight down on your head), and we use it to drive forward and attack the incoming stick with our body supporting it. We maintain space between our head and stick, and then use the live hand to clear the attackers weapon hand and step past (but not sliding the stick off or drawing our own stick around our head, we keep it in front as a shield). The hanging guard roof block we use (where the tip hangs down) has more of a step and turn in our system so you clear your own body past the arc of the attackers weapon, but we teach that to higher level students as we find the horizontal block is safer for beginners.
As an FMA practitioner with TMA background I can say that the usefulness of this art is like any other SD system. Depending on how much you train against true unscripted, no rules, resistance. (The knife side of Arnis is just plain great).
100% this.
Well said.
This was great!! Congrats on 400k my friend 🌟
Thank you sir
One VERY important benefit about Kali/Arnis/Escrima is that you can usually have one close by, in your vehicle, by your chair, and it usually not draw much attention or "seem" very threatening. An old man has a cane, but really its a weapon. You've got a stick in the back of your truck or beside the driver seat. You are walking through the woods and pick up any literal stick off the ground. Many different ways to imagine this. But contrast this to a person walking the street with an open carry gun/katana/knife out and immediately it looks like a threat. You can mess a person up quick if you know what you are doing with any weapon, even "unarmed" but not all weapons are created equal, and not everyone is intelligent enough to recognize anything is a weapon in the right hands.
Having participated in Dog Brothers gathering and events, my scariest thing with roof is the hand exposure (depending on how good you are with form and distancing) as some guys are skilled enough to hand hunt that out. That said, I still perform it regularly, since a broken hand is still better than a broken head. The main thing full contact has taught me is arm, leg, and body shots don't create as strong of reactions as we might think. I've gone entire fights not realizing my finger was broken in the opening seconds.
I’ve been to the Hollywood gatherings I clinch roof block is too risky
I've straight up broke my hand and my elbow with an "improper" roof block. LIteral centimeters is what makes it improper. I learned through that a good roof block, I can clinch from it really well. It's funny that something the DBMA has taught in the past is now maligned. Evolution of training I suppose.
@@californiacombativesclub202 Hollywood local and Doce Pares player here. Do you guys spar regularly in the area? Would love to come trade techs and swing some rattan with you guys.
I had a similar experience dislocated a finger didnt notice till the end and i had my friend pull it back
@@californiacombativesclub202 When I first watched an Unarmed BJJ guy destroy an actual dog brother who had a stick the only thing that was Real to me was BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing. Knife and Gun
we do both disarms in hema
4:00 hanging guard
disarms are easier to do with longer weapons couse its harder strike while in close, so it may be less reliable with a stick than a longsword
Man, why cant the internet let two buds play with their sticks in peace :(
I'm just gonna let that joke lay where it's at without mentioning anything about SafeSearch settings. :D
Exactly. Let men pound each other with their sticks in peace.😂
Your delivery, attitude, and humor - perfect. Thanks.
The "roof block" works. Without a shadow of a doubt I can say that we know it works. It is a hanging guard, or a prime guard, in countless sword fighting styles across centuries.
I don't believe that a technique would appear in nearly every culture of fencing across all of human history if it did not work reliably, and my own high percentage success with the roof block against full force swings concur.
I’m with you. I’ve seen the roof in every bladed art I’ve trained in. Saber, Bowie, Illustrisimo, Modern Arnis, Pekiti, Serrada, English Martial Arts, Fiore, kendo, you name it. I tend to believe the guys that fought for their lives with these systems probably culled out the useless stuff.
I think the rigidity of the weapons can affect its effectiveness. Some of the bamboo sticks tend to bounce past blocks. Whereas if you hit that block with the inflexible side of a sabre in fencing, it works great and has fast riposte options after the block.
I guess it's good to block and move, standing still is shit.
@@cheeks7050 Even with a more flexible stick, it shouldn't "bounce past" unless you're stiff and stopping the block early.
@@cheeks7050 I have never used bamboo sticks ,just rattan etc.
Biggest issue with many FMA schools is 'stick fighting' and defenses that train to treat the stick like a stick when in reality the stick must always be treated like a blade.
FMA are bladed arts and the sticks represent blades. You don't grab a blade!
You're right. Most FMA practitioners I know tend to use all weapons like sticks, which is disadvantageous. There's a huge difference between handling a stick, a sword and a knife. But then again, FMA practitioners are more resistant with regards to scrutinize their traditions than the Kung Fu fighters. We really need to get rid of the whole echo chamber stuff in martial arts.
No, that's not true in general. There are styles where the stick is a stick and that's a good thing as well.
well appearantly use your arm as a stick and you have karate
It's not a blade
@@belachaney yeah but the movement if you use your arm as a stick is the same as karate
Weird that there's controversy about the roof block, as it's a parry / block that turns up in just about every one handed sword system from Europe that I can think of. It's even often known among HEMA practitioners as the 'universal parry'. Sure, there are some cases where you might misjudge it and get hit, but then again that's true of ANY block. Perfect being the enemy of good again.
They talked about the difference between going full power with little protection and friendly sparring where you're not trying to hurt your partner. The argument of the blocks effectiveness might've came from there.
The roof and the universal parry are not 1:1. The universal parry is reaching out to strike weapon to weapon and knock the opponent’s strike off-line. The rooftop is meeting the strike at an arbitrary point and simply creating a wall force-on-force to stop the strike from continuing on. There is a snapshot in time where the body position is the same but each technique has a different function in combat.
@@ConernicusRex Hmm...No, disagree. The universal parry happens in motion but is still fundamentally a rooftop cover where the protection comes from the angle deflecting the attack away from you, without meeting force on force. I've stopped strong two handed strikes from a longsword with a one handed arming sword using this cover in a static position, it works because of the angle.
What you're describing is more of a beat / break. The two can manifest from the same action, but I wouldn't say the universal parry is meant to attack the opponent's weapon.
Are you even fma players?
Yup, in he end it's about timing and position. If you got hit in the hand then your position was wrong or the other person outsmarted you.
Arnis (it’s called that here in the Philippines) has the same problem as Karate. Most schools teach to win competitions and look really flashy.
This is somewhat sad, I would have imagined from the country which it originated, the real meaning behind techniques and forms would have been kept.
@@DeSpaceFairy that just means that there's a bigger incentive to make it more tourist friendly
@@torg2126 yup this has to be expected, but that a slippery slope look what it did to taekwondo, flashy foot fencing with only little application in reality.
Thats the problem of the modern arnis, yes it wanted to promote our art only to be watered down. that is why I wanted to learn the old ways of kalis/Arnis/Eskrima even if its self learning
Not really, you just joined/saw a sport focused one. Same way how WTF and IFT are two different thing despite being both Taekwondo. One is for Competition/sports, one is for Ring and street.
Modern Arnis is known for Sports, that's why most Combat focus school tend to use older name like Escrima/Kali
I highly recommend Atienza Kali to anyone who is disillusioned with traditional Kali. It’s a family style that is related to Sayoc Kali. But the brothers have been working on the techniques and methods for decades now.
So is Kali Sikaran International. Look for videos with "Johan Skålberg". There's a lot more to these techniques than is shown here, for instance the live hand is always there to block the hand that holds the stick (works also as a back up) and there should always be something distracting and or that will disrupt the balance of the opponent when you do the disarms.
I never even knew about these particular arts. Interesting. Let's pray that nobody comes at us sideways with swords, bats, tire irons, and/or steel beams.
It's more likely gonna be steel bats coming at us with swords and laser beams
@@jc-kj8yc Yes...One-Hundred-Percent. lol. If I see an actual lazer beam that can cut through anything, I'm gone up out that bitch. Lmfao.
Easy just have jet fuel to melt their steel beams.
I learned Balintawak through some friends in San Jose California… Some years later I went to live in The Philippines in some rural mountains in Bataan for 5 years. I met a 80 year old man Named mang Carlo. He was originally from Bicol region. This man was the neighborhood Mang Hilot ( massage Therapist)Throughout the years I lived there in The Philippines, I was doing MMA and sometimes I would call on mang Carlo to help me with some injuries. Til one night I called him over. While waiting for Mang Carlo I was doing some free Drills in my backyard with some Arnis Sticks I had just bought. He walked in on me doing free drills. Through the years I known him and the conversation we had this was the only time he revealed to me he was A FMA fighter (But he referred to his style as simply “Baston”) So we had a long night of practicing and “conversations “ in one of our conversations I revealed the Payong Block (Or what your reference the “Roof Block” ) Mang Carlo disagreed with this technique. He simply told me, “You don’t want a Samurai Sword coming down on you !” Through this conversation he revealed that he was a Guerrilla fighter in World War 2. When war Broke out with Japan, his Brother went to investigate and when his brother never came home he went to investigate and ended up with a guerrilla unit. He told me that they were trying to conserve ammunition so they would ambush Japanese at night blade to blade.
The "that's totally a move from XYZ martial art" guys can be obnoxious but I think there's a real value in that. If you can recognise certain principles or techniques from your own system or style or school or whatever in a completely different one developed in a different time, different place, different circumstances, it's a good indication that it's a real universal thing that's proven to work and is worth learning. If you're being taught some whacky shit that you don't recognise from anywhere else, there's a good chance you're in a McDojo.
I recently saw a karate hikite that everyone always dismisses as dumb and pointless used successfully in a Muay Thai match to enter a plum clinch. Ramsey Dewey has a whole video about how to use taekwondo blocks in wrestling. What works works.
yeah, i've been able apply some tai chi stuff to kickboxing and it's been very helpful--actually, i learned it first in muay thai which i trained in before tai chi, but once i worked the techniques in tai chi forms, it actually helped the application in kickboxing/muay thai click much more easily. (kick catches in particular, but also some setups to knees and clinch).
I've been doing Kali and Krabi Krabong (Thai Staff) for fun since I started martial arts! I never thought either would be particularly relevant or as applicable as the stuff I've been learning at jkd and Muay Thai, but it's fun! and the technical nature of learning tons of specific strikes, blocks, grabs, and sequences feels like a melee version of sudoku or crossword puzzles or something to me; brain work to keep that brain sharp. I think there's value there, and of course there are some pretty cool and applicable things from Kali too. Have fun and keep kicking ass you two!
🤜💥🤛
@@metrolinamartialarts Out of curiosity, do you have a preference for a specific style of Kali? I'm only familiar with the basics of the different schools. I hear good things about Pekiti-Tirsia, while others swear by Modern Arnis or the traditional schools.
@@SaftonYT I like Lameco Eskrima and Inosanto-Lacoste Kali the most.
Yes, Kali can go side by side with Muay Thai and Jeet Kune Do especially with the different ranges in your distances with your opponent and the empty hand panuntukan or pangamot aspect. Bruce Lee also practiced Kali as taught by Dan Inosanto as seen in Enter The Dragon movie.
Nice vid, just subscribed. I wanted to clarify though, that I have practiced Kali for a long time as well as other martial arts and have done full contact sparing with sticks many times as part of my practice. I don’t know if it is about liking or not liking a block … anytime you fight you are going to get hit, wether it is by a punch, a kick, or a stick. I do use the wing block (what you did is a wing block which is more of a deflection than a block since its diagonal, a roof block is fully horizontal), but also use the inside and outside deflects, but in full contact you learn real quick to be judicious with hand use and placement although sometimes you put your arm up and take the hit so that you protect your head. People can take hits from sticks and keep fighting and so can you. Can you get knocked out and hurt, absolutely. Also, I have heard you say that when people do full contact dog brother kali it doesn’t look like kali anymore and the art goes out the window. It is a fair observation if you haven’t done it before. The truth is that in full contact the flowery stuff doesn’t pan out, or at least is very very situational (which on rare occasions I have used and have been happy to have trained them, but they are very rare) What we have found out is that when you go all out, what works with Kali is the most basic strikes and moves, but even though they look super basic, the understanding that goes behind e/a strike following an angle of attack is imo very valuable as it allows you to do skilled basic moves. Even basic moves that can hunt hands, etc like someone wrote above or that can intercept attacks. Is Kali the best thing for self defense? Its not about that with Kali, its about an addition to your self defense repertoire not the end all. You do need other things not only Kali, but Kali can help you to bridge techniques together and definitely help when weapons are involved (any object that can be used against you) and like martial artists train to deal with punches, kicks, submissions, locks, grapples, etc. There is no reason not train to deal with weapons as part of the training. Yes, practicing that is time not spent training other things, but its imo another important aspect of training to be a well trained/rounded fighter.
*Excellent video my friend, I really enjoyed it!* 👌👌😎😎✅✅
The higher you get in the traditional Martial Arts indoctrination the greater the risk, greater the reward and low percentage their technique get. They become too specific for particular situations which makes me ask why bother even training them? I'm to the point after 20 + years of striking and Combatives I just work on straight kicks and punches and over all keep my personal system under 100 moves. All these old martial arts have too many redundant techniques which is a waste of time unless your a teacher and need to be an encyclopedia of skills.
@@fugu4163 that's good for those that practice or train to have opponents however as far as Combatives go its best to limit that thought process or training and yes spar and grapple a bit at a (BJJ Blue level is best).
Take the following with a grain of salt. (I think that's the phrase 😆)for example:: If you break up striking to it's basic and take it to it's highest level all you need is the basics but that learning curve is something most can't see the other side of unless they are a lifer. For example::: A straight punch can be used offensively, defensively, and in a intercepting way against all punches and it doesn't tear up your shoulders or mess up your elbow or tweak your wrist as much as other closed fist do. Self defense is very fast. There is has no time for fakes. Kinda like drawing your weapon. If you punch I'll try to kick you. If you kick me I'll trying to grapple you. If you grapple me, I'll try to cut you. If you try to cut me, I'll try to use a fire arm. If you try something Combatives say don't try what your enemy is comfortable with as you should not defend yourself at their level because it's not about competition but survival.
But also leave room for fun times too😊
I think of it like this: when I went to school for electrical engineering, we learned about basic electricity and magnetic theory, motors, transformers, field testing and maintenance, lighting design, plc's, etc. Is that because we were all expected to become motor designers that did R&D on new transformer cooling systems, while designing lighting for medical labs, and doing substation maintenance? Of course not. But our instruction gave us the tools to figure out what interests us, what works for us as an individual, and decide what area we would specialize in.
No different with martial arts systems that have a wide array of techniques. You are taught everything, but the expectation is that you will find the select things that work for you, and those are the techniques that form your individual style.
From a purely selfish point of view, yes it may be superfluous. Can you just learn a handful of strikes, takedowns, and grappling techniques and be an effective fighter? Yes.
But if you have any designs on being able to teach the art to a wide array of people, all with different strengths and attributes, then there is indeed a value proposition for learning everything a style has to offer.
There is a difference between being a good fighter and being a good martial artist. Nothing wrong with having a preference for either. It's up to the individual to decide what they value.
@@hardcaliber19 very well thought out friend. As a former Martial Arts Teacher and owner of a problem who teaches for the client and thinks perfecting the best curriculum/product I must disagree. Teachers want to unknowingly make you a subscriber or a slave to their teachings so you keep paying just like the educational system they just keep inventing new degrees and things to teach you which is a waste of time, effort and money.
A jumping side kick is super challenging, keeps you fit and is fun but not practical. It's great for students. They have fun. You can measure the distance they jump and play all kinds of games but it's a waste of resources which is why I have yet to see a military Combative manual that shows that technique. You barely see a knockout from it in a fight. You need an abundance of skills when you play fighting, sparring, teaching or competing.
A Black Belt program is only good for those types of people not for a Combative mind set.
For example:: I have at best 5 hours to myself as I work, have a wife, a toddler and do YT for fun. I have no time for jumping side kicks anymore. The closest MMA Gym to me is an 45 mins away and the TMA schools around me are too dogmatic. I rather hit the bag, do some pushups, go to the range as that is way more practical and Combatives say which has been proven many times over never fight fair.
In closing too many moves is bad, so is too many of the same types of techniques. Once your teacher knows the most effective moves they should limit their focus on that for a serious program. All you really need for a good chest workout is push ups to stay fit. Most people don't need to do wide, or diamond push ups endless they want to go beyond being fit focused aesthetics but again leave room for fun 😊
It depends what your goal is. Efficiency is important, but to just do the basics efficiently becomes boring after a while. I liked the engineering approach above, but there's another field that maybe applies even better: cooking. There are millions of recipes and dishes out there, but once you understand what's nutritious, why not just cook the most nutritious meal every day? A good balance of carbs, protein and vitamins can be achieved with potatoes, some veggies and tofu. Done. Learn to cook that and eat it every day. I think we can agree that would be awful, blend, boring and dissatisfying. Martial arts are the same to me. I practice my jab, my double leg and my roundhouse kick almost every day, just how I chop onions, cook rice/pasta and deglace the pan with a fluid every day. The basics are important and can always be improved. But I also learn new submissions or set ups, new striking combinations or wrestling chains every week, just like I fry a steak a new way, try a new soup or combine spices I've never tried before. It's just fulfilling and fun to broaden the horizon and dive deeper into an art to learn more about it and by proxy oneself.
Three punches, 2,kicks , 1elbow,1knee, 2 Chokes, armbar, jaw lock. The rest of what I learned in 40+years? For fun.
Two technical points that I think apply for snake disarms and roof blocks, based on my sparring experience with FMA:
1. I think snake disarms don't work that well against an incoming swing flying at you full-force. Whenever I tried it, the swing would either smash through my block, or I would get hit on the fingers, which hurts badly. They work best in a "clinch" situation. The snake disarm was easier to get off when I ended up in a clinch with my opponent and I was trying to grip-fight against the opponent's weapon hand. Naturally, the easiest way to charge in for a clinch against a weapon-wielding opponent is to either wear armor or have a shield. There are some ways you can improvise small shields from common things in the environment - your jacket, a backpack, etc.
2. I think the roof block works best, not as a move to set up a disarm (again, because it's hard to pull off a snake disarm against a full-force swing), but as an evasive maneuver to give yourself extra protection as you step off the line of an incoming downward swing. So for a roof block, what worked well for me was putting my stick up and stepping to the side at the same time - the opponent's swing would miss me and just in case, I would have my stick up for protection so that the swing glanced off me instead of hitting me on the face. Then, since I stepped off the line, I'd be in a good place to attack the opponent from an off-angle position. Miyamoto Musashi's sword katas describe using the roof block in a similar way, and I found that was what worked best.
Both points are talking about similar ideas. Full-force swings are so hard and fast that they're difficult to disarm with fancy-looking techniques. Simple is the best. Dodging the swing / stepping off the line of the swing, and being able to block the swing with something big that covers your body are both better options.
I did a Eskrima system based/branched from the dog brothers (if I remember right) but most things were more or less as you said or were added in to complement, specially roof block, since it really saved me in many situations when we did intensive sparring. Eskrima really help me with my cursed hema monster style LOL
Man, I really like Ed. He is not only an awesome person, but he has such a niche and "flowery" skill set that I feel like I've climbed a mountain and met the wise old master that lives there everytime he starts teaching
As a former PFS guy, trained under Vunak, we did a lot of stick sparring but I have to say I never saw nor did I ever do a stick disarm technique. The only way I've done a stick disarm was when I'd smack the opponent's weapons hand hard enough that they dropped their weapon. Vunak's interpretation of Kali could best be described as "Bastardized Kali." From what I see in these videos it's basically what Vunak discovered for himself thru experimentation from back in the mid 80s.
I don’t know if my previous comment to your previous video showed up - but I did study Sikiran Arnis in Sydney Australia in a suburb called Campsie.
Essentially it’s a street fighting art with two primary weapons- the kali or sticks, and the butterfly knife.
Many of the defensive drills were done with likely attacks from knives, along with sparring, and Kata.
The drills were intense and our teacher would have us sit with our feet together knees out them come and stand on our knees to stretch our groin muscles.
This was early 80‘s so before Van Damme started doing it in Kickboxer.
Our instructors name was Jesse: excellent teacher.
FMA like any other martial arts got its flaws, but it is up to each person's ability to adapt modify to suit one's skill set to situations --- FMA did save my life a couple of times.
Just come here in the Philippines man. We will teach you real FMA here in PBF
Whats surprising is that yesterday i saw the exact same concept of moving in, countering and disarming instead of trapping and blocking from a FMA teacher on Budo Brothers channel that i saw this guy teaching in icy mike's previous video. So yah there must definitely be genuine teachers even if they are low in numbers.
We're trying!
The problem of mcdojos is really over blown for the sake of UA-camr narcissism
I did HEMA, Scottish Broadsword, the "roof guard" is a very cool technique if used against appropriate attack and with an appropriate Footwork!!!
I have noticed that, these days, so many people concentrate too much on the hands and seem to have Very little idea about importance of footwork and positioning.
Totally agree, as an fma practicioner there are only a few techniques i have pulled off in heavy sparring including the roof block. Most disarms ive seen either land there by accident in a clash. or just hitting the hand really hard making the opponent lose his grip.
My instructor made it clear to me that some techniques are exclusively for "arts" sake. meaning its taught and learned purely for cultural reasons.
We might experiment with them in sparring just having fun but most of the time there are only a handful of techniques you can safely use in sparring.
Roof block looks just like the hanging guard in HEMA. That guard is for deflecting and guarding. It is very effective too. Transitions pretty well into a counter strike.
FMA has a lot of elements from classical Spanish fencing in it, the footwork especially could have come directly from some of the Spanish manuals.
FMA was originally a sword/bladed weapon martial arts. It's roots can be traced back to an ancient form of Indo-Malay combat arts known as Silat(the people that we refer to today as "Filipinos" are decended from migrants from Indonesia and the Malay peninsula.).
FMA, a.k.a. "Arnis", a.k.a. "Kali", trace its roots from ancient Filipino sword fighting arts(broad long-swords and short-swords), and was only forced to evolve into a stick-fighting martial arts because during the 300+ years of Spanish Colonization, the natives were prohibited from carrying bladed tools of a certain length(the Spanish authorities outlawed the carrying of anything that they would consider a sword). So the Filipino masters of the sword fighting arts during that time, adapted their sword fighting techniques to hardwood sticks to try to get around the sword prohibition of the Spanish authorities. And because the Spanish authorities did not feel threatened by the "seemingly harmless" sticks, the practice of "Kali"/"Arnis" was able to spread without opposition from the Spanish authorities.
The roots of the fighting system commonly refered to now as "FMA" /"Arnis" /"Kali" is from an ancient Indo-Malay swordfighting martial arts practiced by ancient Filipino warriors where one of the priced trophies of combat is your opponent's severed head. Head-hunting was a thing back in the pre-colonial days.
... And we all know that you can't decapitate heads with a stick😉
Really good discussion 👍
I trained under Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje and had the privilege of training with Dan Inosanto on a few occasions. Both of them are phenomenal martial art masters and humble human beings. I appreciate the video's lighthearted analysis of Kali stick fighting, but their demonstration (1) lacked technical merit, and (2) failed to appreciate that the stick is the entry level to the knife and the hand. Let's not sell Kali short. JKD drew much of its insights from it.
roof looks like a fencing sabre parry. The main difference is that you stand with the dominant hand/ foot forward so the target is smaller. You also don't lock their stick/ blade, you let it bounce off yours and immediately counter attack. highly effective for both sticks and swords IF you studied it (as all effective moves require)
The Dog Brothers hate the roof block? I missed that on their instructional material that builds almost all of their entries off of the roof block.
If there is one iconic move out of the early Dog Brothers videos it is Top Dog crashing into close range under a roof block.
@@BlackbirdTrainingGroup It’s their signature move from the early days. Foundational. Not sure where Icy Mike lives but it looks like the Carolinas. There are probably some actual Dog Brothers in the area. I heard Marc Denny keeps a place at Fort Bragg. And I know that Tennessee Dog moved back to Nashville from L.A. after training and teaching with them out there for 25 years. If he wants to talk to full time stick fighters.
nice job hitting 400k icy
16 yrs kali here. If u don't like it then stop. It would allow more space in the dojo for the true disciples of kali.
It's been a LOOONG time since I did any kind of training with Guro Marc (DBMA) or been to a Gathering (and it's also been far too long since I've seen or trained with Guro Dan for that matter) BUT I don't remember ever hearing anyone in DBMA say they didn't like (or "hate") the roof block. Because they teach an attacking roof block (crash & clinch), I can see where someone might say that he/she/it isn't a fan of a Static or Stationary roof block... ?
Yes, it was totally misapplied in this video. It would be suicide to apply it has shown.
@cannonfodder agree with you there! Just did a workshop with Eric Knaus using the roofblock as an entry to bridge the gap and engage into close range.
Pugay! Nice content... my guro once told me there's two type of movement in fma... for combat moves and for demonstration moves, all the flowery ones are for demonstration purposes
I love how Mike u make it so fun 2 watch
Awesome title! I am an FMA Guy, I started my journey in FMA with Tim Sheehan and Remy Presas. I have been following you for a couple of years now and watch most of what you post, I clicked on this to see what sort of nonsense you were going to need to be corrected on. I'm glad I clicked and watched as I have no corrections for you and you have retained my respect. Good tuff as always, great hook in that title.
that thing at 4:31, the best explanation I've heard about that was told by GM Bobby Tabaoda in an old video of a demonstration he did many years ago. that you don't really fight like that and it was actually to train reflexes in defending and countering, and an actual stick fight would only last a split second because the stick fighters would be using kamagong/ironwood sticks. that was actually one of the first videos about arnis that I've seen where they actually tell you that that's not how stick fighting would actually go
cool video as always mangs. cheese
I genuinely thought this was gonna be a video on full metal alchemist. This makes way more sense!
Hi hard2hurt, FMA is definitely legit. I went against young instructor in Arnis (7 years practice) full speed with rubber knife, totally as I wanted (no "attack me like this"), and I was not able to even touch him with it. Not even his hands that so skillfully blocked my knife hand. And in the Philippines, there are still teachers who participate(d) in real fights.
Have you watched the video? He is not critiquing FMA just certain schools
That's good information. It all seems to make sense to me in everyway though I hardly know anything of Kali really. I believe it's very natural and sensible. My wrists don't really bend anymore, but I'll always find away to use something as a stick or knife. It's cool to hear that it's so effective bare handed against a knife though. That mean that with just a short stick I could perhaps learn it to defend and disarm against a blade. Always got solid blades on me and one of my canes wherever I can carry my knifes. Carry a tactical pen with my cane where I cannot. I got other surprises which I can carry in non permissable places which could be powerful for self defense. Everything about Kali seems perfect for me. I been stabbed and had fuckers try to stab and slice me and fail. I'm really good with tools, particularly stick like tools and knife's including machete's and hiking staffs and shovels and digging bars and oars, which I've actually fought against and used a bit more than the average dude. I got get to learning and practicing Kali everyday.
Anyone who reliably defends an attack against a fully resisting opponent in some kind of sparring is gonna be able to defend that attack 9 times out of 10 in a real situation🤷♂️. Dudes with 0 training and hella sparring experience beat Dudes with hella training and 0 sparring experience in street fights all the time🤷♂️.
arnis knife fighting is the most legit part of the whole system
Many of these stop and disarm drills and techniques will not work in a live combat scenario. A lot depends on the cooperation of the training partner which in real life doesn't apply. However, I love all these drills and techniques and "what-if" practice scenarios because when practiced intensely, they will come to the fore in actual sparring or combat according to flow and opportunity in action. Definitely worth doing despite what some pundits and naysayers may think.
Yes! More love and recognition for the dog brothers! I'd step into a cage and fight professional MMA 5 times before doing one dog brother fight! These guys are insane.
🍻
Is dat their channel name?
i like you two. we will definitely learn from eachother. in this life or the next. godspeed brothers.
I would love to see a video on the usefulness of parkour/freerunning for self-defense
This video made my heart happy.
Roof block is really meant to used with a heavier, longer weapons. If you see Jogo do pau or Asian chang dao manual, they use it very reliably. No problems.
Dud I was bored and I was waiting for your new video all day
The roof block works. It doesn’t work if you stand way to close taking the full force of the strike or if you hold the weapon too low leaving your head exposed. You need to angle off your head and body.
Good video. I think that as far as the dome defense whether it works or not depends on what part of your stick hits his what part of his stick. if the part of your stick that is closer to your hand hits the part of his stick that is further away from his hand then you have the leverage and you will be able to block just fine. but when its other way around he has a good chance of plowing through your block at less you are much stronger then he is.
Roof block isn't all BS, but i think you have to angle it down so it glides off (away from your hand of course). I've seen it done before in Hema and kendo
The roof block is something we also see in some Medieval German manuscripts on how to use a Messer. Just an interesting cross-reference there.
That was more like watching a date, rather than something educational.
Complete newbie here, been looking at either kickboxing or kali for self defense. I do have a back injury that id want to be a little careful of. What would people recommend kali or kickboxing?
A similar type of parry as the roof guard is used a lot in historical european fencing systems.
In my experience it works like a charm, but that’s with training swords, not sticks.
Sticks might bounce a bit too much, and then still hit you, where swords tend to bite more into eachother.
That’s just a guess tho… I don’t fight with sharp swords (big surprise), but it’s fun to think of why certain things are favoured by some, and less by others!
Thank you for the consideration of the context comment!
What you guys are referring to is the art itself so the "stopping' that some are teaching are meant for exercises and learning the attributes of the attack. You practice with a stick, but this is a blade concept. You are going to get cut more than you can stop that blade. The combat version is to counter their attack with your own so parrying or stopping should be your last option or when you don't have your own weapon.
Most of the time, you don't want to stop the sword or stick with your own. You counter it by hacking their hand or arm whenever they want to close the gap to mid-range. Close range usually involve shorter blades or open-hand.
Freaking love this guy.
I've been doing a lot of Arnis here in Manila. Hoping to get better but really trying to scrutinize each technique for efficacy. Still taking it seriously, though. Trying to form my own opinions on a lot of it.
Where do you train? Do you know if there is still a MA community in Chinatown?
Filipino martial arts: Used to fight US Marines. JKD: Used by a guy once who was a freak of nature who never competed but made a few cool movies.
Exactly. Icy Mike once again out of his element but not letting that stop him from making a video of himself acting like an authority.
In defense of the roof block, if the guy can hit you without moving forward, then you shouldn't be using it. It's for long range. His hands should not be able to touch your hand outstretched. An outstretched hand with a stick should only be able to touch the other guys hand, just to clarify long-range. Use it if the guy steps forward and then does a forehand strike to your head. The time and distance the other guy has to cover to reach you is just enough to do a roof block especially if you have your weapon at the ready.
Edit: Also stance shouldn't be squared because that's for close-quarters.
I do Kali cuz it's fun. I almost never think about self-defense. Wasn't that Mike's advice about finding a martial arts club: fun, affordable, and near your house? I got the trifecta.
I like that. Applies to working out in general. Never going to be effective if you don't keep up with it, and "fun, affordable, and near your house" certainly applies.
He's not saying Kali is wrong as a whole, he's elaborating about the things certain Kali instructors abroad teach that are irresponsible and flashy. I learned it as a kid growing up in the PH and I didn't realise some of the weird stuff they taught overseas.
What was the name of the stick fighting channel you guys were talking about? You guys mentioned it a couple of times, but I couldn't catch it.
Dog brothers
@@superiorhema Thanks!
I think people should train more stick-grapp(l)ing. What i mean is, that someone should do a lot of hits with a stick while also pulling back and not stopping, when the partner wants to to a snake (or any kind of control or disarm). Without that kind of resistance training it is pretty hard to get hold of a stick in sparring or any kind of real situation.
I love how ppl misrepresented his criticism as hate of FMA, when he has a pic of Dan Inosanto( arguably the biggest influencer of FMA in the west) next to Bruce Lee. Lol
Folks hear what they want.
Hamaa guy here and FMA is great I love fighting you guys!
Snake is using your hand, vine is using the stick... roof blocks work best when you are moving and the hand comes under the stick to meet their hand, its more of a moving deflection than a solid stop type of block...
Speaking solely off personal experience, the hand-clap maneuvers that you were talking about that the Dog Brothers don't do is something I always hated about FMA. Whenever I was taught that, I'd think back to my first street fight and picked apart exactly how this would have not helped me what-so-ever. The only art that really got me understanding a useful side of this patty cake with sticks is Balintawak, preferred example being from Bobby Toboada.
All facts! 🤣🤣🤣 No one says, "that car has the same wheels my car has!" Awesome video per usual 🙏🏾
Love the sarcasm! Because sometimes people's lack of understanding or choosing not to understand is so tiring.
As a kid in the late 1960's Philippines I saw the last of eskrimador fights in Bohol rice fields. It look very different from Kali or doce paris tournaments where fighters wear protective head and body equipment and use thin sticks trying to score points. In the old fashioned Eskrima fights they wear no protectors and they use Oway or a kind of soft bamboo stick wrapped with cloth stuffed with doldol which is like cotton texture. There are no scores and they beat up each other till one surrenders. All of those fancy exhibition moves at the start don't work. It's just the basic repetitious beatings and stabbings directed to the legs body and head. There is no referee just the other eskrimadors interfering only when the fighters got tangled or move too far from the fight ground. Some of the eskrimadors have deformed fingers from previous fights.
As a FMA practioner when i was younger, we were impressed to learn from other art and evolve and perfect our own FMA style. Unfortunately, i veered from that route so i never had formed my FMA style.
So for me, its good to learn from other FMAs, and keep an open mind.
also, uh, question: could you do a video on defending against a Kendo men uchi-style downward strike to your head from a close combat weapon (stick, baseball bat, etc)? Many thanks!
Please put "just block it with your forearms bro" on a shirt 😂
Keep doing your work and form your own FMA style. FMA is very fluid and adaptive at its core.
You need to make contact with Alvin Aguilar. He is a serious martial artist. He is a BJJ Black Belt and has an MMA school in Manila Philippines. He also teaches Real World Street Self Defense. He has many Knife Cut Scars from when he was involved in a lot of actual fights in the Philippines. What I like about Alvin is he is for real and NOT into any Bullshido. I hope to train with him some day.
Maybe I need to re-watch the vid, but I didn't really hear you say anything negative about FMA. All I heard were good points and opinions on stuff. A lot of it depends on your size, timing and the consequences (or lack thereof) of what is being attempted. Thumbs up from me.
The roof block is an awesome block. You have to remember that you are just cocking to hit. When you block, you are blocking to the hands. Not the stick, you block to the stick for safety purposes during practice.
For me I've always interpreted stick fighting as basically like this: "do this, but now imagine you're holding a Tabak/Itak (or a sword) instead of a stick".
I mean, sure it's impractical for self-defense because, you know... it is developed with the thought of wielding a weapon, and not everyone nowadays carries long blades all the time. You could probably make do with anything long enough, like a broom or something, but that's the point. You don't have to defend for longer if your attacker is already dead.
Plenty of machete fights still happen in Latin America or Africa. I know a few people who have been in them. The basics will transfer to any weapon.
The roof block is a 7 parry in Angelo’s Cutlass drill.
Just repost to the head after the parry
Mike did you tried HEMA?
I think it would be very interesting to see you fighting with a longsword or sword and shield.
wow i didn't even notice Ed had missing fingers until mike pointed it out And i feel like ive seen him in like 5 others videos before this
Even now, here in the Philippines, nobody walks around with sticks. In rural areas , though, farmers do walk around everyday with bolos, panabas (scythe), and other blades. In my younger years, I've witnessed a few bolo and knife fights; but even fewer stick fights.
Farmers usually dint practice kali.
Actually, in older times; some did. I learned a local style in my hometown (Santa Rosa, Laguna) from the caretaker of our school yard. He used to be the tenant farmer of the lot before we turned it into a school.@@kratos2758
With all of these videos of you branching out you might become as popular as Sensei Seth soon. Do you think you'll ever try judo?
It would be nice if you go against a FMA practitioner from the Philippines. FMA is practiced quite different there in the US where safety is the top priority.
I love the roof block as well, It works for me . To each their own.
They're totally underskilled in this style.
Don't talk of something which you didn't master.
True. I love these so called martial professionals who claim that an art sucks or is ineffective. There is ALWAYS a situation you can come up with in which any martial art sucks. An MMA pro can be fucked up in a street situation. Doesn't mean MMA sucks.
I am a Kali practitioner, we don't do that in Kali. The system of Kali is Far different from Doce Pares and Balintawak because the Kali System focuses on footwork, we don't do roof block and snake disarm. We focus on reality rather than form
Go do HEMA with steel that does change the game a lot.
"They hate this block" ... as a full Dog Brother (Chili Pepper Dog), I'm *definitely* going to need some citations on that opinion.
Not a Dog Brother but have been training with them for 11 years. They don't hate the block. They hate the way it is commonly taught. Ie, like in the video.
Unrealistic training of FMA techniques is a problem in several schools for sure, although there are also plenty of good schools that dismiss impractical disarms and the sports-centric point-fighting style. However, I think the bigger problem I've seen with many FMA practitioners (and this point will apply for a lot of weapon arts as well) is that for a large number of practitioners, the weapon ends up serving as a "crutch", a substitute for actual good fighting ability. There are many FMA practitioners that don't develop basic physical attributes necessary for good fighting (eg. strength, stamina), under the justification that those things don't matter, since carrying a weapon allows you to beat up anyone unarmed with your FMA training.
While it is true that carrying a weapon gives you an almost-insurmountable advantage against an unarmed person, the problem with that train of thought is that ANYONE armed, regardless of weapons training or no weapons training, can win against anyone unarmed - you don't need FMA training to be dangerous with weapons. The key factor here is having a weapon or not, and not the FMA training itself. Even a kid can kill an MMA fighter, as long as the kid is carrying a stick, knife or sword. FMA practitioners, many times, forget the idea that "man should be more dangerous than the weapons they wield".
It's unfortunate that many FMA schools fall into this train of thought, because properly trained FMA is a great introduction into the idea that you need a complete skillset (including unarmed combat) and good athleticism to be good at fighting / self-defense. Properly trained FMA should consider Panantukan (boxing) and Dumog (wrestling) just as important as the weapons work itself. Personally, I think a good start for many FMA people would be to just cross-train in Muay Thai and Silat (both of these styles are much more focused on unarmed combat), and just gain a good background in all the mainstream Southeast Asian fighting styles.
Martial arts is fluid, with that being said keep the stuff that works and FIX or change the stuff that doesn’t. You guys said it correct!