Thanks for this video, it's very informative and inspiring. Your stage videos have also helped a ton. Looking forward to being able to chain a stage. Right now I have sections I can chain, and consistently drop in the same spot. Down to three spots on stage 1 I drop at.
Wow, by the look of this comment section it seems a lot of people are getting into DOJ recently, including me :] many thanks for these videos, this game is really overwhelming for someone dipping their feet into danmaku. Can't wait to try full chaining the first two levels later today! :3
Do you know how high the Rank value can go? Does it affect bullet speeds and enemy pattern complexity? Is there a big difference in difficulty between having for example 50% of max Rank and 100% maximum Rank value? I’d also like to ask how you feel about memorization in these games. Is it something you enjoy or tolerate? Personally for me, a small amount of memorization is fine in a larger puzzle-solving context, but if the majority of a task is memorization, it starts to feel tedious. There’s not much decision-making or problem-solving in memorization, which often makes it uninteresting to me. I understand it’s sort of unavoidable in these games, since it’s a top-down 2D game and you can’t see the enemy waves before they are already close to you. I’ve noticed memorization can be sort of enjoyable if I’m having a good day and I’ve slept well, but if I’m having a bad day memorization in these games is almost impossible for me.
I do not remember how high the Rank value can go (you can probably easily find this info with the new M2 port). It mostly affect the speed of the bullets, but in some case, the pattern complexity as well (some boss patterns for example). There is definitely a very noticeable difference between 50 and 100% of max rank. The tighter your routes get, the more you will notice it. Memorization is a huge part of these games for sure. It's something I enjoy a lot.But these games (especially bullet hell games) requires also some bullet dodging skills, to help you survive random patterns on the fly. These games actually have quite a bit of randomness during boss fights, involving a lot of decision making on the fly and quick puzzle-solving habilities. If you are more into this aspect of bullet hell/shmups, I would recommand trying out the Touhou series, which focus more on the random bullet dodging aspect, and definitely reduced a lot of the heavy memo aspect (mostly coming from the arcade design philosophy)
@@jujukenobi7801 Thanks for your reply. The mechanics of these games are so fascinating and cool that I’ll try to find a way for myself to enjoy the memorization as well, haha.
Thanks for the explanation. I personally think this is a pretty stupid system as it stands (which I know is a pretty unpopular opinion). The chain gauge is way too unforgiving for you to engage with it in real time. You have to memorise routes to access the scoring system at all, otherwise your score will be hundreds of times lower than that of an accomplished player and you have absolutely no hope of accessing extends. Here are some adjustments I’d make: • The gauge should sustain at around 40% when you’re lasering a big enemy, 10% doesn’t even give time for your next shot to cross the screen. You have to leave a popcorn enemy in point blank range or you’re SOL • The gauge should scale a little beyond its current cap with each enemy killed in quick succession (think an “overheal” sort of system); obliterating 100 popcorn enemies only for your chain to almost immediately drop doesn’t feel very rewarding •.Some adjustments to enemy placements and popcorn waves so that they’re more evenly spaced; too many times you end up killing the popcorn almost instantly and end up focusing one medium/large enemy knowing that your chain is gonna drop afterwards. There should be a popcorn wave midway through the time taken to kill that enemy, giving you a chance to realise and correct your mistake. Yeah, this makes it “easier” to score. But IMO a scoring system should have a high skill ceiling, not a high skill floor. There’s no reason a medium skill player should be completely procluded from playing for score at all. See Ketsui where any player can have the satisfying moments of filling the screen with 5s, but the best players still have room to do their thing. With these changes, the world’s best players still have plenty of room to optimise bees, hypers, the maximum bonus etc, while intermediate players can actually achieve a chain above 100 without blind luck.
I think that in your idea of improving that system, you overlooked several aspects of what truly make scoring fun. To have explored several scoring systems, I can say that full chaining a stage of DDP or DOJ is extremely satisfying. And you get to have that pay-off at the end of almost every stage. On the other hand, a scoring system like Ketsui, while having many tricks, lacks that pay-off. You can be happy to have pulled off a very hard trick, but in the end, it's a very small part of your score. And you are only really satisfied when you can keep a run going deep (whatever the goal is, Ura, Omote or just solid pace). And whenever you make a mistake, you can have that very frustrating feeling that you could just have done that section the easy way and the impact would have been minimal. Making a scoring system more accessible doesn't necessarily makes it better. Your are just giving to people who don't really score the impression of scoring. And you could argue that this is how you get more people into scoring. But it's also possible to say that if that's all it takes to discourage them from trying, they are probably not people who will ever have any real interest in scoring. Especially now, with several thousand of hours into this game, I can tell you that full chaining most stages of DOJ is definitely the really easy part of what high level players do. Usually, when you see a chain break on a high level play, it's not that they struggle to chain that section, it's more likely that they went for a very hard route to execute (for optimization purpose) and that the mistake resulted in a chain break. Also, all it got me to get hooked on that scoring system was to learn how to chain the first stage. And from there, I wanted to keep learning how to chain to keep the flow going. Making the timer easier would pretty much destroy that flow. Also the whole stage design is based around that. And people who would struggle to full chain the first stage probably have their hands full with survival alone in this game.
I just jumped on from Touhou to DoDonpachi ps2 port I honestly don't care much about scoring because I am not that good of a player and I only play for fun, but I care about if the game is fun if I only want to 1cc it Is white label fine to start on? Because i saw people saying that beginners to the series should start on black label
For a survival 1-all, Black Label is a little bit easier than White Label. Mostly due to a slightly smaller hitbox and lower rank. But it's not that different, so I do think it's fine to play White Label if you want to. For a 2-all, White Label is way harder though.
Les abeilles servent essentiellement pour faire monter la jauge d'hyper ou bien y a t-il tout un système de chaine comme dans le DDP de 97, qui a un impact non négligeable sur le score ?
Les abeilles ont un impact non négligeable sur le score. J'explique rapidement comment les points que rapportent les abeilles sont calculés à partir de 6:10. (Je crois que c'est similaire à DDP à moins que je ne dise des bêtises). Par exemple, casser la chaine juste avant de ramasser la dernière abeille d'un stage peut faire assez mal au score.
I don't think so. There are some similarities but many differencies as well. DFK is probably the game I have the less knowledge about in the Donpachi series. You can probably find some info on the shmup wiki: shmups.wiki/library/DoDonPachi_DaiFukkatsu Or ask more knowledgeable players like Erppo, DaringSpino, CRIII, ...
Ok, how am i supposed to follow what it happening without looking at the top left of the screen? There's no way in hell i can look at the little meter in the corner while i'm trying to dodge bullets
You very rarely look at the top left of the screen. If you watch my stage tutorial videos, you'll see that I use many visual cues (like bullets, enemies spawn and movements, ...) to have routes with very consistent timings allowing me to chain. It's only in very rare occasions and when the game allows it, that I give a glance at the chaining gauge or the hyper meter. Most of the time, you know very well how much hyper you have and if you need to check, you will know when to check.
@@ishimoto1597 Memorizing the whole game is the end of the journey :) Basically, you can start learning some small parts. Realize that some chains are easy to get if you delay some kills or if you kill enemies in a specific order. If a part is too hard, you can try using your hyper. People often see chaining as a really hard thing where you need to learn all the stage in one go, otherwise it's worthless. When in fact you can try to assemble several small pieces together and get longer and longer chains until maybe having full chain in the end.
Thank you for the most clear and concise explanation of Dodonpachi Daioujou's mechanics on youtube.
Thanks for this video, it's very informative and inspiring. Your stage videos have also helped a ton. Looking forward to being able to chain a stage. Right now I have sections I can chain, and consistently drop in the same spot. Down to three spots on stage 1 I drop at.
Fantastic video Juju!
1:33 sad indeed!! 🤣
Thank you for this explanation.
Wow, by the look of this comment section it seems a lot of people are getting into DOJ recently, including me :] many thanks for these videos, this game is really overwhelming for someone dipping their feet into danmaku. Can't wait to try full chaining the first two levels later today! :3
Thanks for the explanation! Bought the game recently and had no idea how to play.
if you watch superplays just imitate those... thats how to get good.
superplays, not just 1CCs.
J'ai enfin compris comment marche ce jeu. Merci pour ces infos très précieuses !
Great video!
Great explantation, thanks so much
This was great, thanks!
Excellent video! This helps a lot, thank you.
Really nice tutortial!
Do you know how high the Rank value can go? Does it affect bullet speeds and enemy pattern complexity? Is there a big difference in difficulty between having for example 50% of max Rank and 100% maximum Rank value?
I’d also like to ask how you feel about memorization in these games. Is it something you enjoy or tolerate? Personally for me, a small amount of memorization is fine in a larger puzzle-solving context, but if the majority of a task is memorization, it starts to feel tedious. There’s not much decision-making or problem-solving in memorization, which often makes it uninteresting to me. I understand it’s sort of unavoidable in these games, since it’s a top-down 2D game and you can’t see the enemy waves before they are already close to you. I’ve noticed memorization can be sort of enjoyable if I’m having a good day and I’ve slept well, but if I’m having a bad day memorization in these games is almost impossible for me.
I do not remember how high the Rank value can go (you can probably easily find this info with the new M2 port). It mostly affect the speed of the bullets, but in some case, the pattern complexity as well (some boss patterns for example). There is definitely a very noticeable difference between 50 and 100% of max rank. The tighter your routes get, the more you will notice it.
Memorization is a huge part of these games for sure. It's something I enjoy a lot.But these games (especially bullet hell games) requires also some bullet dodging skills, to help you survive random patterns on the fly. These games actually have quite a bit of randomness during boss fights, involving a lot of decision making on the fly and quick puzzle-solving habilities.
If you are more into this aspect of bullet hell/shmups, I would recommand trying out the Touhou series, which focus more on the random bullet dodging aspect, and definitely reduced a lot of the heavy memo aspect (mostly coming from the arcade design philosophy)
@@jujukenobi7801 Thanks for your reply. The mechanics of these games are so fascinating and cool that I’ll try to find a way for myself to enjoy the memorization as well, haha.
Thanks for this !
Thanks for the explanation. I personally think this is a pretty stupid system as it stands (which I know is a pretty unpopular opinion). The chain gauge is way too unforgiving for you to engage with it in real time. You have to memorise routes to access the scoring system at all, otherwise your score will be hundreds of times lower than that of an accomplished player and you have absolutely no hope of accessing extends.
Here are some adjustments I’d make:
• The gauge should sustain at around 40% when you’re lasering a big enemy, 10% doesn’t even give time for your next shot to cross the screen. You have to leave a popcorn enemy in point blank range or you’re SOL
• The gauge should scale a little beyond its current cap with each enemy killed in quick succession (think an “overheal” sort of system); obliterating 100 popcorn enemies only for your chain to almost immediately drop doesn’t feel very rewarding
•.Some adjustments to enemy placements and popcorn waves so that they’re more evenly spaced; too many times you end up killing the popcorn almost instantly and end up focusing one medium/large enemy knowing that your chain is gonna drop afterwards. There should be a popcorn wave midway through the time taken to kill that enemy, giving you a chance to realise and correct your mistake.
Yeah, this makes it “easier” to score. But IMO a scoring system should have a high skill ceiling, not a high skill floor. There’s no reason a medium skill player should be completely procluded from playing for score at all. See Ketsui where any player can have the satisfying moments of filling the screen with 5s, but the best players still have room to do their thing. With these changes, the world’s best players still have plenty of room to optimise bees, hypers, the maximum bonus etc, while intermediate players can actually achieve a chain above 100 without blind luck.
I think that in your idea of improving that system, you overlooked several aspects of what truly make scoring fun.
To have explored several scoring systems, I can say that full chaining a stage of DDP or DOJ is extremely satisfying.
And you get to have that pay-off at the end of almost every stage.
On the other hand, a scoring system like Ketsui, while having many tricks, lacks that pay-off. You can be happy to have pulled off a very hard trick, but in the end, it's a very small part of your score. And you are only really satisfied when you can keep a run going deep (whatever the goal is, Ura, Omote or just solid pace). And whenever you make a mistake, you can have that very frustrating feeling that you could just have done that section the easy way and the impact would have been minimal.
Making a scoring system more accessible doesn't necessarily makes it better. Your are just giving to people who don't really score the impression of scoring. And you could argue that this is how you get more people into scoring. But it's also possible to say that if that's all it takes to discourage them from trying, they are probably not people who will ever have any real interest in scoring.
Especially now, with several thousand of hours into this game, I can tell you that full chaining most stages of DOJ is definitely the really easy part of what high level players do. Usually, when you see a chain break on a high level play, it's not that they struggle to chain that section, it's more likely that they went for a very hard route to execute (for optimization purpose) and that the mistake resulted in a chain break.
Also, all it got me to get hooked on that scoring system was to learn how to chain the first stage. And from there, I wanted to keep learning how to chain to keep the flow going. Making the timer easier would pretty much destroy that flow.
Also the whole stage design is based around that.
And people who would struggle to full chain the first stage probably have their hands full with survival alone in this game.
Thanks!
I just jumped on from Touhou to DoDonpachi ps2 port
I honestly don't care much about scoring because I am not that good of a player and I only play for fun,
but I care about if the game is fun if I only want to 1cc it
Is white label fine to start on? Because i saw people saying that beginners to the series should start on black label
For a survival 1-all, Black Label is a little bit easier than White Label. Mostly due to a slightly smaller hitbox and lower rank. But it's not that different, so I do think it's fine to play White Label if you want to.
For a 2-all, White Label is way harder though.
Les abeilles servent essentiellement pour faire monter la jauge d'hyper ou bien y a t-il tout un système de chaine comme dans le DDP de 97, qui a un impact non négligeable sur le score ?
Les abeilles ont un impact non négligeable sur le score. J'explique rapidement comment les points que rapportent les abeilles sont calculés à partir de 6:10. (Je crois que c'est similaire à DDP à moins que je ne dise des bêtises). Par exemple, casser la chaine juste avant de ramasser la dernière abeille d'un stage peut faire assez mal au score.
@@jujukenobi7801 ok merci, j'avais zappé cette partie sans faire exprès, en effet elles ont un bien plus grand impact sur le score que sur DDP
Are the mechanics the same in DDP DFK?
I don't think so. There are some similarities but many differencies as well.
DFK is probably the game I have the less knowledge about in the Donpachi series.
You can probably find some info on the shmup wiki: shmups.wiki/library/DoDonPachi_DaiFukkatsu
Or ask more knowledgeable players like Erppo, DaringSpino, CRIII, ...
Ok, how am i supposed to follow what it happening without looking at the top left of the screen?
There's no way in hell i can look at the little meter in the corner while i'm trying to dodge bullets
You very rarely look at the top left of the screen.
If you watch my stage tutorial videos, you'll see that I use many visual cues (like bullets, enemies spawn and movements, ...) to have routes with very consistent timings allowing me to chain. It's only in very rare occasions and when the game allows it, that I give a glance at the chaining gauge or the hyper meter. Most of the time, you know very well how much hyper you have and if you need to check, you will know when to check.
@@jujukenobi7801 so, basically, memorize the whole game?
Is there any point in trying to score if you don't have the whole game memorized?
@@ishimoto1597 Memorizing the whole game is the end of the journey :)
Basically, you can start learning some small parts. Realize that some chains are easy to get if you delay some kills or if you kill enemies in a specific order.
If a part is too hard, you can try using your hyper.
People often see chaining as a really hard thing where you need to learn all the stage in one go, otherwise it's worthless. When in fact you can try to assemble several small pieces together and get longer and longer chains until maybe having full chain in the end.
if it is too overwhelming focus on one step at a time. no need to make yourself frustrated. @@ishimoto1597