FIRST LOOK At New Citroen e-C3 Is MASSIVE SURPRISE!
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- First Look At New Citroen e-C3 Is MASSIVE SURPRISE34k!
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Come on Citroen give the guys a free e-C3 you will get more exposure than any advertising campaign you pay for 😁
My thoughts entirely. Bet it doesn’t happen though!;
you are hilarious.. haha.. 1st, you go camping and you cant find your spot, you go camping with no hammer, your 1st camping night and you got bad weather and ... and.. finally you get in a citroen e-3 and it took you some minutes to realize it was not an EV... haha... stay charged.. you are the best...
We have no luck!
How time flies, it's been almost 3 years since Elton arrived, I still remember and it feels like it was yesterday.
Lately, you've been very lost, Tim, that wasn't the electric vehicles event lol
It was the electric vehicle event that’s why the ads they showed on the screen there were electric (they just didn’t have any!)
❤ Nothing beats the Citroën Ami.
I wish someone would make a winter package upgrade for it, then I would want to get one in Norway.
I agree!
I would love to see you go test drive the 15k Euro Leapmotor T03 in France. That's the most expensive version with 400km range after French subsidies.
I'd love to see it tested as well
This very day I saw a vintage 2cv. lemon yellow, on the Godalming road. Classic.
Love them!
Now that would be a good replacement for Elton if there had to be a change.
Phew looks like Elton is safe for a while! ❤
Yes!
Me and Mon C3 would work really well for your channel. I agree it is really strange not to have, what is the star of the show, there. I do think this is a winner. And the price is very tempting if you are in France. I couldn't blame you for updating. I think at least one of you will get to travel in the style they clearly deserve 😉. Twiggs has excellent taste, and all that room would be a boon to her.
We love our Ami but having proper seats was nice!
I really enjoy your presentations.
Mr. Boo is just a bit over sized for that back seat. $9,000 seems like a great deal.
Cheers,
Thanks, we squeezed him in!
The new Renault 5 looks very nice 😍
It does!
Wait for the Hyundai Inster, it will be cheaper and better than the e-C3. But the very best car for you would certainly be the old classic Citroën Ami from the Panhard factory, but electrified. Still me and mon Ami but a classic with much more space and way better looking.
I have a model of it on my shelf. Lovely though not as easy to park as Elton.
My Grandmother who was from Oldham would call that a 'Swizz' They need to offer you guys a test drive of the actual car ASAP.
Not sure they have any here!
I love how baffled you were by the stick shift, your knowledge about cars is simply astonishing!
It was a very alien concept to me!
I think my favourite thing about the Citroen e-C3 is that they drive very nicely. I could easily do a 2000k journey in one. Especially on the beautiful French roads.
They are popular for a reason..
In 130 mile stretches in summer, with hours of recharging stops. Good luck lol.
@@stevezodiac491 well, these cars charge from 10%-80% in half an hour. So that's 130 miles in the morning, full charge during lunch, do another 130, then 80% charge during coffee break, so we get 350 miles done in one day, easy.
Let's wait till Teslabjoern gets one for his famous 1000 km challenge. I suspect he'll do the 1k in less than 11 hours.
Mijn Opel rocks e is een prima karretje voor mij ,ook al heb ik mijn rijbewijs BE, ik hoop ermee uiteindelijk voordeliger mee uit te komen.
Car launches - all sizzle and no sausage😮. We went to the Magiarge restaurant in Bordighera yesterday. Lovely part of the town. We have a new challenge for you - Bussana Vecchia just further down the coast. A village hit by an earthquake, now very quaint but an interesting drive. Ciao from Rocchetta nervina, near Dolceaqua.
Thanks, we love that part of the world.
You guys deserve a proper EV and the sweet spot would be the mid level trim to get all the amenities that are really necessities. Will the Citroen EC-3 electric be a step up from Elton? A test drive would be needed to to decide if its worth placing an order for one. Mr. Tim wasn’t won over the styling of the petrol model which looked too generic Eurobox.A shame the electric version wasn’t made available for a preview but it should come out in the months ahead. Thanks for the preview of the latest Citroen! 😊
I love the styling of the Ami and don’t love this. I like something a bit out there design wise. But it’s a very comfortable car
Oh gee, I hadn't heard you tell that you'd gotten your driver's license - HA! and "I think we've gotten into the wrong car"..... There are always many laughs with you two :)
It was like going to the opening night of cats and realising they were doing Phantom!
merci a vous pour ce partage 🥰
Par chance j’ai pu essayer la E c 3 électrique a Antibes , bien que cela soit un modèle de pré série , la conduite est soft et très agréable la puissance suffisante (largement) il n'y a pas de mode "standard ,éco "etc , juste un bouton pour faire varier la puissance de régénération
tres bonne voiture pour le quotidien 😁...
Would be great to see
I ordered the electric base version 3 weeks ago... Paid only 16 thousand euro after state bonus in Italy..
Wowzer is that more generous than France?
Yes sir! The version without radio and tablet though.. @@MeandMonAmithe Italian bonus was finished in 8 hours! 🔥🔥🔥
@@MeandMonAmi. that is good how much would it be in Italy without subsidies ? 23k Euros ?
That was a bit like trying to eat a lolly with the wrapper still on it!
Or peel a banana in your pocket!
Keep an eye out for the Renault 5……. If I’d the cash I’d be in for that……I prefer’d the concept in the C3…. That was outstanding…….thanks for the update lads….and the laugh😂
They are cute by for sure
Stay Charged! 😊
The biggest competitor it will have will be the Volkswagen ID.2. You might have to pay a grand or two extra for the VW, but the recharge speed will be half of the Citroen and the range will be just a little more. However the VW ID.2 goes into production at the end of this year. But a 20 minute recharge will be amazing for a 25,000 euro car.
Indeed what’s the recharge time on the e c3?
According to Citröen, 20% to 80% in 26 minutes for fast charge.
@@salus.populi6323 all the other car companies are measuring from 10% to 80%, that's strange...
We have a Citroen C5 Aircross, diesel 8-speed auto. Will be interested in trying an e-C3...
I think they could do very well
Not something I could afford, but then again I'm very much a sans permis person. Talking electric I have fallen in love with the ex La Poste Ligier Quadeo's. They're fairly reasonable on the second hand market. Quite what state the batteries/motors are in, I've no idea though. They are cute even so...
Interesting to know, thanks
Hmmm, seems marketing department thought it was a good idea to hold a party without the star. BTW, Mr. Boo, I am enjoying the first of 4 days for gymnastics qualifying trials in US. 😊
He’ll be watching!
I live in France and this can happen quite a lot😊
Does it happen in other countries, I’m intrigued.
@MeandMonAmi I live in Canada the English speaking part :) It could never happen here, it would be a PR disaster and head would roll. Having said that...I can see that happening in Quebec and they would just shrug and go back to the wine. It's not a bad thing :)
I agree with @Thechargeshow and you should test the Leapmotor T03 if you can. 400Km range would be great.
We’re going to look into it.
Haaaa. I was looking forward to this! I called Citroen a couple of times to test the new e-C3 (and the Ami). Weirdly, they kept pushing it back. "No, our local dealer doesn't have one yet". And when I finally COULD go, it was the 1.2 turbo petrol one. Eh, no thanks? But for private lease, I could get one now(ish). Right. Oh, and no Ami either. We only have the Opel Rocks E in the Netherlands for some reason (even if you could also simply order one in Belgium), so that will have to wait too.. My visit to the showroom just wasn't as fancy as yours was!
Yes we were told we could see one in February. I wonder if one will emerge this year?
The Ami is a design classic , wish UK had same attitude to electric. Here no subsidy, and public charging can easily be 75pkwh they will kill the uptake here. #lovelifeloveleaf hope I can be in the back if you get the ec3
I totally agree it’s a design classic!
The fact that Citroën didn't have an electric car to the launch of an electric car says it all regarding Stelantis commitment to that type of vehicle.
In fact I was surprised there was a petrol version of the car. This means a vehicle not engineered from the ground up to be electric. Which for me is in 2024 an absolute no go.
My issue with the C3 … and most Stellantis cars for that matter, is terrible rear seat legroom. That for me is a deal breaker. In this case the interior space doesn’t begin to compare to the Hyundai Inster, or one size up, the Kia EV3.
This didn’t seem bad but were used to not having any rear seats!
It does look like a call car tbh. I think in Australia they will launch the petrol version of it and also the electric. That lunch though is very typical Citroen. No ideas and no cars sadly. They have really changed over the decades. Some say for the worst. I think they need to get back to the customer and putting them first. Lets hope it comes to Australia though. Australia needs more Citroens.
Mister Me and Mister Boo & Elton, now this was Citroen playing games, teasing ya 😂 the car itself is ok ish, the Chinese are trying to monopolies the market,but the tariff that's going to ve added to their vehicles will stop them dead in their tracks, hopefully 😊 anyway for now,with Elton, stay safe and well and obviously stay charged 😊🎉
If it’s anything like as popular as the c3 I think they will be happy
That was entertaining and informative as usual! Only 199km of autonomy, not exactly great. Looking forward to your next fun outing!! Thank you Both 🙏
199 miles Mike. 325 km
Looks a nice little car. Should sell well I reckon - trying to bring electric to the masses. I have had 4 Citroens starting with my little AX - my first car way back beyond!! Had two Picassos and loved them….very economical diesels….
Yes I can see it selling quite well as the c3 has
Those white leather seats would quickly turn yellow from chain smoking gauloises.
True but we’re non smokers!:
@@MeandMonAmi Well yes, but you're not French. They start doing that in kindagarten over there.
@@Oldsmobile69 also true!
Not been to France for a while have you! While you still see some smokers, it's normally the young ladies with their Marlboro Gold these days.
@@tonyanddeb1012 What a disappointment. I must tell all my friends about this on my Mintel.
I wish you guys would go see/review LONG RANGE microlino!
We’d love to but they don’t answer our e mails!
I'd agree with all your points of argument: The eC3 is a proper, practical car for normal buyers, but it's also a tad generic.
Yup and the concept version was anything but
Its an alright car the c3 but prefer the ami less size and weight but the c3 is basically if im right based on a jeep avenger which u could find im italy cause Citroën is owned by stellantis thats why,
I wish they’d made it more like the concept car which was very cool
My view is that Citroen is seeking early interest before the launch as it is fearful of the Chinese EV competition on price and is getting early commitments, deposits and bookings in before the opposition's offering are widely known - in 6 months it may be too late ! Reports in press that Stellantis is very concerned over the Chinese ability to undercut European pricing even after EU tariffs have been imposed...
I’m sure there’s something in that though I can see Europe imposing heavy tariffs on Chinese imports
More range & bigger motor, means it will cost more per mile than the Ami, but still excellent value compared with other ‘real EV cars’ as compared to the Quadricycle way.
If .i need a bigger vehicle I think e-C3 could well be an option, but next few years might see other options to blur the market & purchasing mind set ⭐️
Yup I think it will be a very interesting time for lower cost ev’s.
Well, that was a little disappointing. I was really curious about the new electric C3 that you would show us. That usually means waiting months until we see this car.
Indeed, but to be fair I think you saw it apart from the transmission
You guys are the best! 😊
Thanks
Current Fiat Topolino version of Ami delivery wait times:
Italy = 12 weeks
France = 16 weeks
Germany = 24 weeks
UK - Topolino not yet launched, looks to be Autumn, delivery 2025. UK Ami delivery = 16 weeks.
Thats amazing .I mean the concept of the car is good as most people dont need any thing bigger as a city runabout but it is still expensive for what you get for your money.I think something like the e-C3 is better value
I think the e-c3 is more mass market than the Ami will ever be due to comfort issues etc but we love the Ami
Another Good Episode. It's just a pity you got into the wrong version.🧸🧸🐶🚙
Twice!
Citroen were being very smart inviting Mon C3 owners to a new car launch .I mean they could not help being impressed -air con and heaters what luxury
Yes I think they are hoping Ami owners upgrade
Did you get code 78 on your B license? I don't think there's much reason to do manual transmission anymore, to get without code 78.
I haven't had a manual transmission in 10-15 years, but occasionally I drive my parents car, and they still have manual.
Yes I can only drive automatic couldn’t see the point of doing manual and I can upgrade with a 7 hour course if I have to
@@MeandMonAmi that's slightly different to Norway. We can only remove code 78 through a new driving test. However, there's no mandatory lessons.
There's been suggestions to allow a mandatory course to remove code 78, but no process started to make it an option.
Bonjour mes amis d'Espagne. Nope, it is just too small for us. The E-Berlingo would be OK though to take three people, two small dogs and a wheelchair plus all the associated paraphernalia for a holiday. Our current diesel version is just great.
Not for you for certain!
I agree - still too expensive to be an "EV for the Masses", but it's a positive step.. better value than the Dacia Spring?
Possibly not..
Maybe the new electric R5 is more your style, can't wait to see those on the streets!
It’s is rather cool!
@@MeandMonAmi and like all the best vehicles it's got a baguette holder
Why not snap up a new Renault Zoe, which is being remaindered off so they can sell the New R5?
Thanks will have a look
We’ve run them since 2018 in the UK great compact 4 door fun to drive run about, but may not be small enough for you two! Nick
Please can you & Mr Boo take a drive in a Renault Twizy. We have one on the farm and it is impossible to drive it without laughing., especially with a passenger. Very fast too - 50 mph.
We have two on our street but haven’t they stopped making them?
@@MeandMonAmi Yes, sadly, but I am sure you can get a drive in a used one or hire car (anyone reading this who can lend their Twizy ?!). You would also love a Smart - comfy seats, air con …..
New channel should be Me and Mr Boo
What??? No electric Citroen C3 at the Official Launch???? I reckon you should get a months FOC use of the Electric EC3!!!!
It did feel a bit of a con!
Loving the new price breaking ev from dacia (spring) ...after the disappointment of the faux citroen bev you have ground to cover on these "genuine" french manufacturer offerings, if you have not seen it its atght 4 seater with a good boot, the acceleration is not great but it has the potential for a french villagers workhorse much like our beloved deux chevaux
Will look it up!
@@MeandMonAmi I have seen you mention it before, but maybe that was the ICE version? ..it's not posh (dacia never was posh, right) but transferring from an ami & the EV cost it might be an attractive "step up from" test drive review, no idea if it has air con!? (it will not have a heat pump, crazy that something which was on the leaf in the early EV days is not a standard item bearing in mind how it can assist range & comfort, I swelter in one of out smart cars (one has air con the other does not) ..no idea how we managed back in the day.
BUT, please do locate a kindly Smart electric drive owner & borrow it, this is the sort of incarnation we need to get back to for 2 people & luggage & low weight micro mobility, thing is we had a great design in 2000, which was purloined by the chinese (surprise) & electrified badly, but the shape, proven electrification of the smart car really ought be brought back with LFP battery tech with minimal tinkering (after all) using an older design that has already undergone the process makes it cheap as the tooling already exists, so much leg room you wouldn't believe it till you drove ..if they can produce an electric "APE" in india, then logic says use older tooling for older style cars that fit the BEV micro market.
The new Renault 5 looks tidy ! 👌
It does!
Just watched the e-C3 tested in Paris so they do exist.
Yup the press test vehicles certainly do
According to Mr Boo you’re just missing a car!!!!😂
Indeed!
What a disappointing event...I suppose you got to sit in a similar petrol C3, but that's not
what everybody turned up for ! Haha. You and Mr Boo made the most of it anyway.
Indeed not quite the same
Question for anyone familiar with the area. I will be in Villefranche in Aug. Should I get an EV rental car? Will charging be an issue and how expensive is it. Looking at what's available online it looks like day charging is very expensive and not sure how available are the chargers at night when it's cheaper?
We seldom have an issue finding a public charger in the area but don’t leave it overnight
@@MeandMonAmi thank you.
I genuinely think that a Dacia Spring is a better option. I could see you both driving around in a Dacia Spring 😊
No, they have taste.
OMG how very France. 😂
Welcome to Me and None e-C3 🙂
Indeed!!
Stay with what you got.
We ain’t leaving Elton!
You lads always make me laugh, ❤ to you and Mr Boo
Thanks!
Well, that was bait and switch.
It was odd!
I think if it had been the electric C 3 ,I suspect more people would have been be there . Stay charged..not required by the cars you saw .
It was billed as such!
@@MeandMonAmi thats a con .
I want one. I hope you buy one!
I think many people will
@@MeandMonAmi I very much agree. The sad truth is we will never see these cars in America.
Replacing Elton is like replacing Mr. Boo's name...
Indeed!
Typical French wheeze- petrol powered electric car. Brilliant!
It made me laugh/ a bit annoyed I’d schlepped there!
Only in France could they have a big launch for a car and not have one of the cars 😂
I wonder does the same thing happen in Uk?
@@MeandMonAmi in the uk the car launch would be two years later than Europe and the price of the car would be 50% more!
How does it go, no meat all potatoes lol ?
All gong no dinner!?
Rumours of a LONGER RANGE Ami in 2025....
We’d love it!
Noise..
actual real world range figures from the EV database
Highway mild weather 145 miles
Highway cold weather 110 miles.
For the bigger 44 kwhr useable battery version.
Basicall just a home charger tethered shopping trolley.
Inadequate range to replace a conventional family ice car. It will be bought as a second or third car.
We manage with a car that has a range of 46 miles and in normal use it poses almost zero range issues
@MeandMonAmi but you hardly go any where of distance. Try going to, around and back from the Scottish Highlands from England, which I regularly do, either with my caravan, pulled by my campervan or car or campervan solo . I am glad both my ice vehicles have 650 mile ranges. They can both tow my 7.5 metre 4 berth fixed bed caravan for 350 miles before refuelling as well. Next episode try the same with your citroen Ami or the EC-3 that will be a hilarious camping episode. I have a Nissan Leaf also, I was so impressed with it, I gave it to the wife. She now uses it within it's octopus go home charger tethered range. It is just over 8 years old, has only done slightly over 40 k miles but has 42% battery degredation now, with 5 out of 12 battery bars lost. I won't be buying another electric car ever again. I come here for the comedy and reparte, which is quite funny.
Hello Tim, Mr. Boo, what a total waste of time! No, not your video, they are always great. But the Citroën dealer, I bet nearly all of those potential customers, were there to look at the new EV. Maybe just the dealer where you are is crap; however, Citroën must have approved the show. Look forward to more such videos, hopefully with a more competent dealer. Thanks for putting a smile on my face though with your and Mr. Boo's comments. ;)
I live in France and have a gas powered c3. What happened in this video is very French. Not good planners. It’s just wrong to have an opening without the vehicle. Odd.
I was very surprised!
I suspect your videos might loose a certain something if you were in a “proper “ car. But if you really want one I wonder what Elton would fetch on auction? He has a certain history. 😊. I’m really sorry that your licensed status now prevents you from having a glass of wine. That’s brutal. I have to wonder how many accidents occurred because the driver had one glass.
Don’t worry Elton isn’t going anywhere (fast!;)
The adoption of EV's by the reluctant masses is always going to be "problematic" ..
Just think of what you could buy with 24 thousand Euros if you're looking at the
used petrol cars that are available !
Seeing what the Chinese have done and how they did in China "enforcement" is
a good case study indeed.
The Chinese fire brigade are kept very busy putting out EV fires on a daily basis.
Not just Cars but Buses and Bikes too.💥🔥
If, as legend states, the Chinese can produce "reliable" non explosive EV's for
5 thousand Euros, I would be interested in a test drive. As for international politics,
that is just as much our fault as it is theirs. At this point in time EV's are not going to
save the planet.🤷🏼♂
Hi, I collect and deliver electric cars and can say that they have lots of problems. The more complicated the more problems, stick to the ami.
We love our Ami!
Well isn’t that typically French!
Just a little bit, erm, shall we say unorganised! 😂
Well
It’s was very odd!
You you guys went all out to a car presentation that wasn’t even there??? Now that’s what i call a massive cock-up! At least you got some free drinks out of this waste of time!
But bad points for citroen!
It was very strange!
Blow whether its got a pink furry steering wheel or musical air-con.
What about safety in a mixed vehicle driving environment ?
Euro NCAP rating is higly relevant on this issue. ?
You're sharing a road with other much heavier vehicles, some of which have top Euro NCAP crash resistance and some of which are mo-fo magnitudes of heaviness greater.
Will lighter engineered cars need to display a vulnerability marking on their rear ends, as a warning to other drivers, in tbe same way that lorries with higly efficient air brakes did when first introduced in the 60s.? Marketeers wouldn't like it, but from a safety perspective it would be a good idea, given that the C3-e and the like gives the impression to the uniformed motorists, viewing at a distance, of a build strength that might be stronger than it actually is.
Take it from me as someone whose VW Golf Mk1 was T-boned, at low-speed by a 38 tonner artic on the Hangar Lane giratory system,, West London.. "Steel is real" and offers better protection than alumiinium or composite.
Of course, the proposition cbanges if all the cars on the road suddenly changed overrnight to lightweight composite.... but that ain't going go happen
Looked as if forward vision through the front windscreen was not all that wonderful.
I can't understand the design ethic for the current generation of EVs. You've lost the ICE under the bonnet, but they insist on retaining the bonnet profile in the body work instead of converting the space gained into more cabin space. What's the matter with these designers... too many focus groups with fingers in the pie.? The designers have been given a once in a 100 year opportunity to radically improve tbe design of cars for the users and they blow it.!
And that C3 desperately needs more leg-room in the back, as Mr Boo demonstrated - he'd be giving hand signals with his feet out the window if he had to travel in the back in that thing.
If its designed for Grandma and Grandpa, they won't need 4 - up seating most of the time. How about re-introducing the concept of a rumble seat (Enclosed).
Designers must try harder. More radical approach to design needed.. Come back Alex Issigonis.
I imagine it pays to be conservative when it comes to design. You have to appeal to a large swath of people. I have seen some innovative models. I have also seen a lot of new EV companies go out of business: Rivian, Fisker, even Tesla has slowed down.
There’s definitely a safety trade off with light quads
And the c3 has been such a hit for them, why change a winning formula..
I like the idea of electric cars but here in the Italian Alps I am afraid they will all but die during the winter.
How many miles are you planning to drive per day?
Typically not many but I like to go on road trips throughout Italy including to small villages in remote places. I don't want more battery anxiety. The other problem is that I don't want another ICE. Don't know what to do.
@@thomasjpuleo8112. How about a hybrid if you are driving in rural Italy regularly? Otherwise, own an EV for your usual driving, and hire an ICE for the occasional trip.
@@AliWade1971 Yeah. It is a good idea. I also like the styling of the old FIAT Panda, which they will keep making for another couple years, in mild hybrid form. Charging an EV is just too much faff. Also not crazy about how new Panda looks. I have always liked the Citroën C3 Aircross.
@@thomasjpuleo8112 I love Pandas too. I had a fabulous automatic one before changing to an EV. If I needed a hybrid, I would definitely consider one. There is going to be a new Panda, which I am interested to see - and a Renault 4
for an electric car its a good price but it sure isn't Elton, so it becomes another normal car. Epic fail to invite a youtube channel to film it and then not have the car!! crazy French. Here's a guy who was able to preview and drive the new car ua-cam.com/video/_hhttgf6ee8/v-deo.html
Thanks. Elton is unique for sure!
Looks like every other car out there. Why does it need a "screen" and all the electric shit like windows and door locks????? I was hoping for a bigger AMI with more room and speed. Not a pig with lipstick.
It’s definitely not as exciting as the concept car
So far, I'm not impressed with the body design of any electric car I have seen to date, with the exception of the monAMI. I my monAMI EV The least the designers could have done is make a Citroen monAMI look like a 1911 STUTZ Bearcat. Oh man. Yeah!!!!
I think the Ami is a stand out design. It’s took turns heads everywhere we go and that’s 2.5 years on
I was hoping you would be outside & pressed against the glass filming tbh, 😆
aannd! ..its a bloody nissan juke ffs, a faux suv, ..makes me sad,.
Obese (cake eating) cars lives on sadly, not a wee smart car rejuve ..Merde!
It’s doesn’t have the magic of the Ami but it does have more comfort etc!
@@MeandMonAmi yes, the seats are not something that would work well for "nobby stiles" (of viz fame, not the footballer) I reckon you ought to try & find an early electric smart, taller, small but tardis like, ...has a boot (bigger than a mini it must be said) stil crashy on potholes & speedbumps due to short wheelbase, but so much fun to drive! comes in various guises (& you'll like this was known as the ED (electric drive, nothing to do with the other) ..I reckon you ought track an owner down & do a retro review, they are still two seaters, but i've had a big boxer bitch in the back of ours (dog, obviously) ...under rated, the smarts got fatter & wider, but the earlier versions were based on the original body shape & were officially "kei car" standard beloved of the japanese, & yes, you would have air con ;) ...they are lightweight mercedes based go karts.
I honestly thought the citroen was going to be a proper budget diddy 4 seater not that "comfortable monstrosity" ..so sad that BEVs are still unattainable in part due to ridiculous bloated design, that is where elton is a gem, utilitarian 1st gen, before the design gets "silly" (said in a python armed forces voice)