Thats my question (I’m Jorge/Coco)! Thanks Paul and everyone in the comments for their input. Glad this part of the community is really supportive. All of you have a great one!
While I fully agree with Paul's advice, be prepared to do some proper research on what streamer/DAC combo might work well. Tried a lot of "cheap" streamer options (Chromecast 4k + HDMI-breakout, Chromecast Audio, Raspi4 stock, ...) -- just to end up with a mid-tier streamer (old 2015 Auralic). TOSLINK from cheap streamers is a no-no, but maybe that's only me and my experience.
The much-touted WiiM Mini Streamer is a great streamer for $100 or under. It has a nice UI which you can expect frequent updates to, DLNA support (so you can listen to anything not on a streaming service, like the Octave Records collection), and can go to a good DAC via SPDIF with up to 24/192 resolution.
Separate is also good for the difference in technology life span. For a streamer with associated user interface and app it's shorter than for a DAC. If you have a fantastic DAC it can work with different streamers over the years.
What's a average dac ? Is it based on money or actual performance, because they don't always go together. Just get a wiim mini it's bit perfect ! How's that for credibility...
@@r423fplip Compare the mini connected directly to your receiver/amp to the sound of the mini connected to a schitt modi dac between the two and you will hear a big step up in sound dynamics.
Digital technology is nuts. It outdates every few years. Thus, it is wise to split tasks among separate devices. A DAC can live very long if you like its sound. Its digital interfaces are established since forever. No worries there. A streamer has a much higher chance to be adapted (meaning: swapped out) to access the latest services and whatnot. DACs don't really outdate as such (putting aside latest ultra high res formats here), but are currently making huge strides in terms of performance for the money.
staying seperate at least gives you an upgrade path if thats of concern. Plenty of folks out there are also content with a piece becoming obsolete so long as it sounded great to begin with.
I’ve used a Cambridge modded by ModWright for over a year. I’ve since had 3 dacs and the Cambridge holds its own. Even if average, average nowadays is pretty darn good. My current dac is a Rockna Wavedream and is far more expensive and quite a bit better overall. But, it’s not hugely better in each category. Cumulatively better. If I hadn’t heard the dac, I would have been perfectly happy living with the Cambridge. It’s a great unit.
So if I have a Mac that is my Roon core, and an audiophile usb cable that feeds to my dac why do I need a streamer? What is the advantage of adding this? Thanks!
I was thinking the same a few years back, Using Bluesound Node2, My Rega CD player always sounded so much better. So I bought a Rega Dac that I now use for the streamer, Cd player and enven the TV. Smiling ever since.
Have a Bluesound Node 2and think the internal DAC is terrible when compared to my Ares2. Never meant to use it for that, but just tried it to see how good/bad it was.
I have a great streamer with a great built in dac with a linear power supply. The HIFI Rose RS 150B. I’ve tried some stand alone dacs as well as the very good dac in my $16,000 Luxman SACD player and the one in the HIFI Rose still sounds the best. Plus the software updates from Rose will keep the streamer from becoming outdated. I like having a one piece unit that sounds as good or better than any separates I have heard.
It's always good to invest in a good DAC, you can connect your TV or CD or PC and more to it with good quality! Better to get out the signal as soon as possible and convert it in a good DAC.(with these low end devices)
Yes streamer on nr 1 with this question, and upgrading the streamer later on is spot on. I recently upgraded my system with a streamer that has a Femto reclocker and that gave next level sound quality. After that I linked a SSD with my music collection directly to the streamer, and again a second next level step up. It is amazing.
However, the transport is the very first chain in all the setup. I experienced massive changes depending on the transport when connected to the same dac. I went node n130 > zen > sacd 30n. The sacd 30n was a huge leap in sound quality even when used as a pure transport.
there are a lot of cheap streamers that do this very well. I agree with the opinion on the video: cheap but decent streamer + high end DAC + good preamp-amp or good integrated amp.
Can anyone please help me I have a xdp-300 R pioneer Media player that has 2 built in DACs. I use the 2mm male to RCA hooked up to the Auxiliary on my Sansui G8000 and hear my Amazon HD music and it sounds nice. What I'm wondering can I hook my XDP -300R To a Dac then to my Sansui g8000? I'm new at all this and love hearing my music I just want to do the right thing thanks Tony from Arizona.
back in '84 there was a kinda war going on. it was between kyocera and their dual 16 bit 4x oversampling unit and denon's 1 bit 'streaming' converter (you know...the one with the multi turn coil~filter~in the signal path). all competing to get rid of what was termed 'digital hash'. in the world of ones and zeros am i looking at the same sort of battle going on now? btw..i preferred the kyocera unit over the denon. thanks for reminding me of the battle paul. be well. be safe. =dok=
When shopping for a DAC, don’t think that it’s all about the DAC chip that’s being used in the design; it’s really more about the marriage of the amplifier connected to the output of the DAC, and the power supply that’s needed for the circuit, that can make or break the opinion of a specific DAC, not just the bits and sampling rate, which, while important, is not the whole story. 🥳
That is actually not true, speakers are important but not as much, i have heard speakers performing very poor when connected to digital source, and performing very well when connected to analog source It is actually important how devices pair. If you have expensive speakers that is still no guarantee you will achieve high quality sound.
@Douglas Blake true. But the RPi solution is problably the best bang for the buck out there. That’s what I have right now attach to a CA CXA81. I just wonder how does it match to a 1k streamer...
Why would someone feel the need to change your mind? It would be a complete waste of time. You would only accept information that you agree with, and everything else would be ignored. How do I know this? If I asked you to provide a credible reference that proves your post true, you can't do it. Anything beyond that is meaningless.
@Douglas Blake The last time we spoke I told you to stay out of my business. I don't give a fuck about what you have to say on the matter. Its been a while since I heard from you so I'm going to let it go this one last time. But this is it. One more post and I'm going to do what you do to everyone else, and we'll see how you like it. Stay the fuck out of my business.
Bits, others call it byte’s. Which is it in the land of expertise audio professionals. I know you are out there. Bit perfect.😎 Listening to most all the music pumped out in the music industry these past years, I would not want anything “resolving” as you say listening to all that crap. It’s beyond terrible what I was listening to yesterday on Apple iTunes. It’s their number one different artist hits from their albums in Apples playlist I was listening to in Apple Spatial Audio, Dolby Atmos , HiRes audio formats. How can people listen to those music artist recordings. There is no way you could make any of that sound good, it’s impossible.
@@spandel100 I get it. I am OLD I remember Swing and Big Band in my youth growing up. The music artist are a generational thing. What I don’t get is people’s ears and hearing are not a generational thing..LOL Yet they are collectively putting these artist in the top one hundred charts with songs and albums. 😳🙄 Thankfully old time music artist are still available for me to listen to with no need for DAC’s and hocus-pocus Audio Codec’s ✅
@@davidfromamerica1871 I have an old school system(Arcam Alpha 8 amp,Arcam Alpha7 cd player).I stream through Tidal as well as playing Cd's,when streaming I hand off the decoding to my IfI Zen One Signature in exclusive mode.This has a Burr Brown Dac which is warm and buttery smooth.If I put on anything that is even slightly harsh or badly recorded I just turn it off and try something else.Music needs too be pleasing not irritating.I have a good spread of reliable artists that I normally go to for this criteria.Take care.
I like the glass window analogy. All your individual connections and components are individual sheets of glass stacked up on top of each other to make your window. All it takes is one layer to be dirty to make the window less transparent.
only thing you really need is a nice phone with LDAC bluetooth and a nice bluetooth receiver-dac like fiio bta30 pro or smsl c200 or ifi zen blue or zillions more. everyone is making them.very affordable and great sound. you dont need more here... upgrade speakers.
The DAC the high end ones have download upgrades so no outdating soon. Also you will notice with high end pieces they can do swap outs or upgrades of physical components for a cost that is typically cheaper than buying new. So yes if what is being bought is cheap for the masses that stuff outdates pretty quickly but the end user likely upgrading over time anyway so a moot point. Is it just me or do others disagree about the speaker first for quality? If you have a trash amp but a great speaker you still hear a trash signal. You can take a clean and nice quality amp to an average speaker and make it the best it can be. You can take the best speaker and the cheapest amp and make the sound the worst it can be. So personally I would spend money on quality amp first and then get a decent speaker for playback and upgrade over time. Also pushing the distortion through a high quality speaker from a cheap amp will really increase odds of damaging that speaker over time. Everyone has an opinion.......... : )
Thats my question (I’m Jorge/Coco)! Thanks Paul and everyone in the comments for their input. Glad this part of the community is really supportive. All of you have a great one!
While I fully agree with Paul's advice, be prepared to do some proper research on what streamer/DAC combo might work well.
Tried a lot of "cheap" streamer options (Chromecast 4k + HDMI-breakout, Chromecast Audio, Raspi4 stock, ...) -- just to end up with a mid-tier streamer (old 2015 Auralic).
TOSLINK from cheap streamers is a no-no, but maybe that's only me and my experience.
The much-touted WiiM Mini Streamer is a great streamer for $100 or under. It has a nice UI which you can expect frequent updates to, DLNA support (so you can listen to anything not on a streaming service, like the Octave Records collection), and can go to a good DAC via SPDIF with up to 24/192 resolution.
@@carlosalvarez7445 gracias Carlos! Going to check NRD’s video to see if I can do better with my speaker placement :)
Good video. No beating around the bush. Straight and to the point, and "sound" advice.
Separate is also good for the difference in technology life span. For a streamer with associated user interface and app it's shorter than for a DAC. If you have a fantastic DAC it can work with different streamers over the years.
Or buy a steamer that uses a modular approach. I know companies like Ayre do this to let the full unit continue to evolve.
important point
Great question, really practical. Excellent answer too, I always look forward to your advice and the manner of its delivery.
Fantastic Paul, some credibility and trust in hifi. It’s amazing how many buy a pricey transport and average DAC for the given system.
What's a average dac ? Is it based on money or actual performance, because they don't always go together. Just get a wiim mini it's bit perfect ! How's that for credibility...
@@r423fplip Compare the mini connected directly to your receiver/amp to the sound of the mini connected to a schitt modi dac between the two and you will hear a big step up in sound dynamics.
Thanks Paul. I needed this opinion/explanation
Digital technology is nuts. It outdates every few years. Thus, it is wise to split tasks among separate devices. A DAC can live very long if you like its sound. Its digital interfaces are established since forever. No worries there. A streamer has a much higher chance to be adapted (meaning: swapped out) to access the latest services and whatnot. DACs don't really outdate as such (putting aside latest ultra high res formats here), but are currently making huge strides in terms of performance for the money.
staying seperate at least gives you an upgrade path if thats of concern. Plenty of folks out there are also content with a piece becoming obsolete so long as it sounded great to begin with.
I have the Cambridge Audio CXN2, it is an integrated DAC and streamer and it is very good.
I haven't seen the measurements of the dac inside the CXN2. So I don't know if it's very good, or bang average.
I’ve used a Cambridge modded by ModWright for over a year. I’ve since had 3 dacs and the Cambridge holds its own. Even if average, average nowadays is pretty darn good. My current dac is a Rockna Wavedream and is far more expensive and quite a bit better overall. But, it’s not hugely better in each category. Cumulatively better. If I hadn’t heard the dac, I would have been perfectly happy living with the Cambridge. It’s a great unit.
So if I have a Mac that is my Roon core, and an audiophile usb cable that feeds to my dac why do I need a streamer? What is the advantage of adding this? Thanks!
What are those speakers? And what are those panels on the front wall and what do they do?
I was thinking the same a few years back, Using Bluesound Node2, My Rega CD player always sounded so much better. So I bought a Rega Dac that I now use for the streamer, Cd player and enven the TV. Smiling ever since.
The Rega dac is lovely
@@henrym78 Yes it sure is. I feel lucky to have had a chance to get one since they are discontinued
Separates might be better. But, I do think there are streaming DACs that hold great value for its price especially sound.
Have a Bluesound Node 2and think the internal DAC is terrible when compared to my Ares2. Never meant to use it for that, but just tried it to see how good/bad it was.
I have a great streamer with a great built in dac with a linear power supply. The HIFI Rose RS 150B. I’ve tried some stand alone dacs as well as the very good dac in my $16,000 Luxman SACD player and the one in the HIFI Rose still sounds the best. Plus the software updates from Rose will keep the streamer from becoming outdated. I like having a one piece unit that sounds as good or better than any separates I have heard.
I just added an ifi Zen One Signature and stream through my pc using exclusive mode.All plugged into an Arcam Alpha 8 amp.Sounds fantastic.
It's always good to invest in a good DAC, you can connect your TV or CD or PC and more to it with good quality! Better to get out the signal as soon as possible and convert it in a good DAC.(with these low end devices)
Finally a "normal" pair of speakers. They look a lot like my KEF's
Yes streamer on nr 1 with this question, and upgrading the streamer later on is spot on. I recently upgraded my system with a streamer that has a Femto reclocker and that gave next level sound quality. After that I linked a SSD with my music collection directly to the streamer, and again a second next level step up. It is amazing.
However, the transport is the very first chain in all the setup. I experienced massive changes depending on the transport when connected to the same dac. I went node n130 > zen > sacd 30n. The sacd 30n was a huge leap in sound quality even when used as a pure transport.
there are a lot of cheap streamers that do this very well. I agree with the opinion on the video: cheap but decent streamer + high end DAC + good preamp-amp or good integrated amp.
The only question is interconnects. Do I my minimum length good quality interconnects or use what I use in the rest of my system.
Definitely agree the DAC plays a far more significant role
Can anyone please help me I have a xdp-300 R pioneer Media player that has 2 built in DACs. I use the 2mm male to RCA hooked up to the Auxiliary on my Sansui G8000 and hear my Amazon HD music and it sounds nice. What I'm wondering can I hook my XDP -300R To a Dac then to my Sansui g8000? I'm new at all this and love hearing my music I just want to do the right thing thanks Tony from Arizona.
Looks like a pair of Genesis speakers there.
separate stand alone.... DACs come in different flavors... pick your flavor
When will p.s. audio produce a DAC that sounds good as a Mojo 2?
@@rap-soldier2185 in another words never. I think it would do Paul some good to exercising is grey matter to program his own fpga.
Great ❤ video, Paul!
Thank you!!
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 My pleasure 😊
Everything I watch one of these I think about the Dunder Mifflin commercial
Someone was listening to Beck- Morning phase.
back in '84 there was a kinda war going on. it was between kyocera and their dual 16 bit 4x oversampling unit and denon's 1 bit 'streaming' converter (you know...the one with the multi turn coil~filter~in the signal path). all competing to get rid of what was termed 'digital hash'. in the world of ones and zeros am i looking at the same sort of battle going on now? btw..i preferred the kyocera unit over the denon.
thanks for reminding me of the battle paul. be well. be safe.
=dok=
When shopping for a DAC, don’t think that it’s all about the DAC chip that’s being used in the design; it’s really more about the marriage of the amplifier connected to the output of the DAC, and the power supply that’s needed for the circuit, that can make or break the opinion of a specific DAC, not just the bits and sampling rate, which, while important, is not the whole story. 🥳
Plus Streamers are bound to increase in quality quickly over time. So that should be the thing you are willing to change more often.
I have an Metrum Acoustic Dac and a cheaper streamer…. It sounds superb!!!!
That is actually not true, speakers are important but not as much, i have heard speakers performing very poor when connected to digital source, and performing very well when connected to analog source It is actually important how devices pair. If you have expensive speakers that is still no guarantee you will achieve high quality sound.
Buy CD's.
In this case I rather get a Denafrips Ares and wait sometime to change my WiiM streamer rather than buying a Bluesound now.
As a cheap streamer one can go with a 50 $ raspberry pi running volumio, no?
@Douglas Blake true. But the RPi solution is problably the best bang for the buck out there. That’s what I have right now attach to a CA CXA81. I just wonder how does it match to a 1k streamer...
Or you could get the wiim mini !
@@cesar120876 the weak point is probably speakers, then the cxa81. I would think that a dac and streamer would out resolve them.
Assuming you choose a bit perfect capable streamer, then the choice of streamer matters not to the SQ. Change my mind.
Why would someone feel the need to change your mind? It would be a complete waste of time. You would only accept information that you agree with, and everything else would be ignored. How do I know this? If I asked you to provide a credible reference that proves your post true, you can't do it. Anything beyond that is meaningless.
@@AT-wl9yq reference? Bit perfectness or not is a boolean function. If the stream arrives bit perfect, how could the streamer impact SQ?
@Douglas Blake The last time we spoke I told you to stay out of my business. I don't give a fuck about what you have to say on the matter. Its been a while since I heard from you so I'm going to let it go this one last time. But this is it. One more post and I'm going to do what you do to everyone else, and we'll see how you like it. Stay the fuck out of my business.
The wiim mini is bit perfect !
Bits, others call it byte’s. Which is it in the land of expertise audio professionals.
I know you are out there. Bit perfect.😎
Listening to most all the music pumped out in the music industry these past years, I would not want anything “resolving” as you say listening to all
that crap.
It’s beyond terrible what I was listening to yesterday on Apple iTunes.
It’s their number one different artist hits from their albums in Apples playlist I was listening to in Apple Spatial Audio, Dolby Atmos , HiRes audio formats. How can people listen to those music artist recordings.
There is no way you could make any of that sound good, it’s impossible.
Agreed...horrible.
Correct !
@@spandel100
I get it. I am OLD I remember Swing and Big Band in my youth growing up.
The music artist are a generational thing.
What I don’t get is people’s ears and hearing are not a generational thing..LOL
Yet they are collectively putting these artist in the top one hundred charts with songs and albums. 😳🙄
Thankfully old time music artist are still available for me to listen to with no need for DAC’s and hocus-pocus Audio Codec’s ✅
@@davidfromamerica1871 I have an old school system(Arcam Alpha 8 amp,Arcam Alpha7 cd player).I stream through Tidal as well as playing Cd's,when streaming I hand off the decoding to my IfI Zen One Signature in exclusive mode.This has a Burr Brown Dac which is warm and buttery smooth.If I put on anything that is even slightly harsh or badly recorded I just turn it off and try something else.Music needs too be pleasing not irritating.I have a good spread of reliable artists that I normally go to for this criteria.Take care.
I like the glass window analogy. All your individual connections and components are individual sheets of glass stacked up on top of each other to make your window. All it takes is one layer to be dirty to make the window less transparent.
only thing you really need is a nice phone with LDAC bluetooth and a nice bluetooth receiver-dac like fiio bta30 pro or smsl c200 or ifi zen blue or zillions more. everyone is making them.very affordable and great sound. you dont need more here... upgrade speakers.
Buy both, better to be safe than sorry
The DAC the high end ones have download upgrades so no outdating soon. Also you will notice with high end pieces they can do swap outs or upgrades of physical components for a cost that is typically cheaper than buying new. So yes if what is being bought is cheap for the masses that stuff outdates pretty quickly but the end user likely upgrading over time anyway so a moot point. Is it just me or do others disagree about the speaker first for quality? If you have a trash amp but a great speaker you still hear a trash signal. You can take a clean and nice quality amp to an average speaker and make it the best it can be. You can take the best speaker and the cheapest amp and make the sound the worst it can be. So personally I would spend money on quality amp first and then get a decent speaker for playback and upgrade over time. Also pushing the distortion through a high quality speaker from a cheap amp will really increase odds of damaging that speaker over time. Everyone has an opinion.......... : )
what are these floorstanding speaker?
Tdl studio 0.5