I agree HMs were useful for gating off progress but if you're going to convince me HMs are better they need thier own slot outside the 4 moves and no battle value. In an open world environment with no need for gating progress I think they aren't needed personally. Love the discussion though!
Nah fuck hms I absolutely refuse to back to times where I would need a pretty much mandatory water and flying type on the team and also waste a move slot on top of that
The franchise is about building a connection with all Pokémon not just yours It’s an allegory for respecting nature The anime teaches the same message All Pokémon are friends
I think it'd be cool if the brought HMs back. They could simply have the player teach it to their pokemon as a different kind of move, like say a non battle move slot. Meaning it's a move you can use in the overworld, but it's not a move that takes up a battle move slot and you can't use it during battle. The only issue is Fly and Surf, because they are actually decent moves in battle so maybe you could still teach them as a battle move too, if you were so inclined. There, HM/ride pokemon problem solved.
I would say after playing Monster Hunter Stories 2 I like riding on Monsters in general so Pokemon implementing them in Pokemon Legends Arceus was good and I like that as the HM replacement and not a fan of them because I had to use a HM Slave in the past. If HMs were to return it should be more like similar to ride system in Monster Hunter Stories 2.
Personally Imo I think it should be like it is in the newer games when u can use HMs in the wild by using a wild pokemon while if u wish u can teach hm moves like surf or strength to ur party if u wish.
So to me, I think the box art legendary being the HM user is actually kinda funny to me, since thats how I used my legendaries as a kid. It just made them cooler, since I use my legendary/starter to help me out, rather than some random mon. I think people genuinely overeacted as to how "bad" they were, since I was able to beat Cynthia as a kid with my box art legendary and starter quite literally having movepools with mostly hms.
Yes!! As long as it is a secret technique outside of their 4 move slots, I am down! I thought Arceus got close and LGPE were golden! Make them rewards. I loved in Arceus that each ride pokemon allowed me to go back to earlier maps to explore new parts of that area.
Yes that is how I would want it. Hm like abillities on a seperate slot uther then attack moves or ride pokemon. Hms wer always anoying and mostely usless to me. Besides fly and serf wich wer good for travell and battle almostecevery uther one was terable in battle and just took up slots for good moves. An hm pokemon wasn't even trained. Hou dump hms on it and used it for exploring but not bzttle. It took up a slot in your party for those you would eather be training. I realy can't see how people want them back at all unless it's cause they say it ads chalenge to train your pokemon and explore or just want the origional formula back. I'v ben playing sence red and never liked hms.
I like the idea of your party pokemon specifically helping you traverse the region, but I don't have a problem with the legendaries doing it. I think they will be closer to you than just rides, since the trailers show some sort of initial interaction with them you have on the beach. I think they'll grow closer to you as you ride them and eventually, likely in post game, become part of your party. And to me, HMs wouldn't make sense for this game because it would require me to go in a certain order instead of being able to go anywhere I want, which is how I think an open world game should be.
Am I the only person consciously aware that they enjoyed the metroidvania aspect of the DS and GBA titles? Guys, you have a PC, you can use more than six pokemon total.
I just want to be able to use all my Pokémon to travel without needing to use a certain move or using a generic bike/legendary. Like how Let’s Go has but with a bigger selection of Pokémon.
Now that I’ve watched the video entirely, I kinda have to agree with you. Unlocking new methods of travel by getting these techniques and sharing them with your caught partners would be really cool. Something more like Field Skills in Xenoblade.
@@CaptainFidget of course. Like anyone who plays these games, I want the immersion. I want to feel like my own personal journey through the region matters. While something like the bike or specific key items that would get you past roadblocks can help you on that journey, it really doesn’t tie into the journey itself. I really think that it makes a lot more sense for certain Pokémon to simply possess the ability to traverse the region in different ways. That way you can still be about you and your Pokémon without having to take away from anything else you’ve got. The only technical wrench that’s thrown in there is if you want to do certain challenge runs or other types of play through‘s where your pool of available Pokémon is small.
@@CaptainFidget True, and even then, the pools of Pokémon we have to work with a lot larger than they used to be. Like, if something of the sort was implemented in generation eight or generation nine and I wanted to only use ghost types, we at least have enough dual types of every type to be able to have necessary things like surf.
I'm sure that's what arceus and sv are trying to do. Gues it needs more work. Maby close the open world abit more and add more ride pokemon and such. Kinda go back to arceus compared to sv or something
I think the perfect example of why hms are totally hated isn't just cause they need to take up a slot, but it becomes intrusive on your playthrough and overshadow their significance of getting them
That's the entire point of them. Walking around with 6 fully kitted battle mons simply makes the game too easy. HMs didn't just halt progression until you get a badge, they also forced you to plan out a team and work with a smaller team while exploring. You want a game without HMs? Then enjoy the easier games.
@@ChedringNo, they forced you to either teach your Pokemon a nearly useless move, or lose a party slot to a Pokemon with useless moves. HMs in no way made the game harder, just more annoying. I can sweep the Elite 4 with level 70-90 pokemon just as easily in RSE as I can in S/V. Also, strategy? Outside of Surf and Fly, which are actually decent HMs so you'd just give it to your water and flying team members. Every other HM is very area specific. So you can just teach it to one of your box Pokemon and then swap them in and out when needed.
I actually quite like the idea of techniques you unlock for your party to use. And I agree that the fact that your actual team feels like they’re playing less and less of a role in how you explore is a bit of a sad trend.
I have to agree that LGPE did it best, but I disagree that HMs are better. I'd rather the traversal method be intrinsic to the region, rather than arbitrarily, "make your pokemon do X". Ride Pokemon in Alola actually felt like it was something people did regularly, same with Corviknight taxis in Galar. BDSP did it bad, but we'll ignore that for now. And with Miraidon/Koraidon, at least we see other people using Cyclizar to get around the world, so it feels natural, and clearly there is a big story element to the legendaries. I just hope the story is a bit better than how PLA did it, which just kind of felt contrived to an extent. HMs are inherintly bad for team building since they take up a move slot. To be able to fly in Y, I have to swap out a team member every time, just because I didn't want a pokemon with wings on my team. That SUCKS. LGPE gets around this by it not being a move on your pokemon, and as you said, thats better, but I'd still rather not be reliant on having pokemon with special characteristics to be able to do X, Y or Z. If you don't have Charizard, Dragonite or Aerodactyl on your team in LGPE, you can't ride in the sky. If you don't have specific larger pokemon, you can't move fast. That STINKS. Just give me a ride Pokemon so I can do it if I want a team of small mammalian creatures. Y'know? I think Miraidon and Koraidon are the best ride Pokemon have been. They are with you the entire story, but don't take up a party slot, so your team can bet whatever you want it to be. They are present and hang out and play with your pokemon, and you can treat them like any party member when doing picnic, and important relationship building tool missing from PLA. They are intrinsic to the plot, meaning you have an important reason to care about them and have a good reason y'all help each other. They feel right in the world, because other people use a similar pokemon in the world for travel. And they unlock more functionality over time, meaning you have to find the ability to traverse water and to climb and to glide; Exploring the world is locked behind building a bond with the legendary. I don't want them to return to HMs, and if they are going to do it LGPE style, do NOT force me to have certain pokemon on my team. It's why I hated Megas, it's why I hate HMs. If you force player's teams to look a certain way just so they can get around, it means you get Bidoofs tagging along, or having to swap in some random bird you caught purely to fly on. It destroys some of the fun. So yeah, I don't agree with you here. Even LGPE had problems with it, as cool as it was, and I think SV are doing it the best we've seen yet (though I'm pretty partial to SwSh just handling it all with a bike as well). Oh, also, the issues you said started in XY actually started in BW. In BW, you didn't need ANY HMs to beat the game, they were all just handed to you, and they weren't even locked behind gym badges, they could all be used as soon as you got them.
I don't think Blue is supposed to be your antithesis. As Oak said, he's been your rival ever since you two were young. How I see it he isn't necessarily bad with people or abusive to his pokemon, he just has a bad motivation. He's motivated solely by one upping you. He's always one step ahead of you by being in the town first, catching the rarest pokemon (like cubone), beating the gyms first, etc. Even in the final battle after he built the "strongest team in the world" he wants to battle it against you, his rival, the strongest opponent as he sees it. He's not really taking in the sights or enjoying the ride he's just looking for the next opportunity to rub in your face the fact that he's better than you.
Yeah, but what if it didn't take up a move slot though. That way you can have any pokemon that could overcome the obstacles. Plus, with the games now allowing for switching from the pc whilst on the go I don't think it's nearly as bad as it used to be
The problem I still have with your solution at the end of the video (I've heard other people suggest similar things in the past) is that it still kinda incentivises an "HM slave" if you don't have a Pokémon on your team that can use a technique. I quite often don't have water types on my team (idk why, I just rarely find myself using one for some reason) so whenever I want to surf in any of the games with HMs I have to catch a separate Pokémon when I need to surf, and have to replace one of my party members for it (arguably worse than replacing a moveslot imo) - your solution doesn't solve this problem, I would still have to catch a water type that I won't want on my team and have to replace one of my team members for it. I don't think the legendaries being the ride 'mon of this generation will be bad, as the trailers have shown plenty of clips of the player interacting with them outside of riding them, so I'm fairly sure we'll build a bond with them quite easily (especially if you play scarlet - Koraidon is just too adorable to say no to)
I sometimes wonder if HMs were moves taught to Pokemon, but are not useable in battle because they are from a separate category; they're for the overworld. And just like battle moves, they can be developed and can learn stronger moves to open up overworld opportunities. Maybe a Pokemon can surf, but can only surf on such a speed, and only surfing on such speed limits your traversing opportunities out in the sea. Maybe there are islands that can only be reached by Pokemon who have managed to surf faster, or can naturally surf faster. Then maybe they can upgrade and learn dive later on too to open up underwater exploration, or even become strong enough to do waterfall. I tend to imagine an overworld puzzle, like let's say a natural underground water system, and one of those underground rivers has a stronger stream and current. Going through it contains a legendary or unlocks a lore, but you need a Pokemon who has learned to surf faster that can overcome strong currents by that point. I dunno. Thoughts like this x3
Interesting ideas. If hms came back as techniques it could work really well alongside the Terastal phenomenon. Like if you don't have a Pokemon capable of flying, a pokemon with a flying Terastal type could be able to do the flying technique.
best example to refining it would be xenoblade 2, each blade has inner value from typing, passive abilities and even potentially unique abilities - that's what pokemon needs, keep the HMs and have certain things require the move as well as the stat check to a problem, this way average exploration is done just by the mons in party but always have those higher challenges that require the actual HMs same to the job system in that game, SwSh tried but created just a weaker system to it overall, where u send them out and sometimes interconnect to main quest parts or even unlocks other side quests by having certain mons
I totally agree HMs get undue hate. They're a great exploration tool and reward as well as a handy level barrier. They also remind me alot of Metroidvanias in that it gives you a reason to return to older areas.
The games should be intellectually challenging. Be nice to have a "hm challenge" option for experienced players, and a "taxi" option for new players/younger
What's challenging about that exactly? That's like saying using physical cash to pay for something is a challenge when others just use a credit/debit card to pay for it quickly...
@V-jes a more experienced player has to think about move slots for hm moves and a newer player doesn't? seems like a different challenge to me. Welcome to your opinion of course
@@NullnotVoid That's not a challenge in any way but an inconvenience at worst, what is why Gen 7 and beyond stopped doing those, especially when you consider the fact that there's nothing stopping you from just using a HM slave for those anyways...
Fully agree and have been looking for a video just like this. For an open world game like S/V it would benefit experience to have something similar to HMs/field moves to make exploration more interesting and provide puzzles for players to solve. No need to have it be a move that takes up a slot on one of your pokemon. Instead as long as you the trainer learns the technique through the proper challenge or story progress, you can use that action with any pokemon you own that would be able to learn it. I'm still for items bring usable such as a bike, surf board, glider, flash light ect. These can provide alternative options that a player might have to grind a bit more cash for and can provide an alternative means of movement that might not be as fast. But with players being able to access their box from anywhere if you really do need to push that boulder or something you can quickly switch one of your party pokemon if none of them can solve the puzzle and switch back after
After you beat the story, you can put the ride pokémon in your party. *However,* if you decide to ride the ride pokémon, it is *immediately* removed from your party and *not* automatically put back in your party if you dismount, making the ability to put it in your party *absolutely pointless.* It also has a different Individual Value spread than the one you can catch for the pokédex. Your ride pokémon is 31\31\28\31\28\31 in Scarlet and 31\28\31\28\31\31 in violet. The legendary that triggers the pokédex is 25\31\25\31\25\31 or 25\25\31\25\31\31 respectively.
The solution you propose at the end is what I've been saying for years. You'd still require a Pokémon physically capable of Surfing, Flying, etc., it just wouldn't take up a move slot. To unlock them you'd have to complete little quests as you progress through the game to unlock your "flying license", "surfing license", and so on. Most importantly though, the problem has already been solved by instant party changing. Now that you no longer need to go to a Pokémon Center to switch out your team, you can easily swap in an HM user to cross a body of water and then sub them back out once you're on the other side. The HMs could stay as glorified TMs if you for some reason wanted to teach them to your Pokémon (but mostly for consistency/transferring old Pokémon up).
personally i agree with some of your takes. Hm's were a good thing and i'm not a big fan of ride pokemon or the ultra bike, but they don't limit team building like HMs. What i would prefer is you have to go to a specialist building or out the way town or house which is off the beaten path and battle them, then they teach YOU how to swim, dive and climb rocks. maybe they give you items to do it, swimming suit, scuba suit, climbing gear. i'm fine with the taxi as it makes sense in lore they would have a service for it. Instead of cut i would have a person teach you a techinque so any pokemon with a cutting move can cut trees (slash, night slash, psycho cut ETC) or have a fire type move burn the shrubs down (less likely as forest fires and all that). strength could just be any pokemon you own with a ATK over 100 can just move them, locks it to mid game to late game but can be used earlier if have a pokemon with massive ATK, allowing your choice of team members to matter. Doing these would allow you to explore with any team you want but still need to use your pokemon to get the techinques or items, making them like trials you need to go out of your way to look for and over come.
Going to try and counter some of your points. First: people in Kanto didn't need to teach Cut to a Pokemon to get around. For instance, the "Cut Master" can use "Cut" to progress by using a sword or whatever (It's been 20 years since I last played Gen 1 without glitches, so give me a break if I forget small details). In most games people are using tools to help, such as Mining Lamps and Shoves in the case of Workers, or in the case of Gen 1 the Sailors aboard the SS Ann will say how they like to lift with their Machops. Of course, there are also Swimmers and Surfers on boards. That right there eliminates the need for at least Cut, Flash and Surf, with a possibility of Strength. There's also Pilots, so we know Planes are a thing, which eliminates Fly. The only HMs that can't easily be replaced are Whirlpool, Waterfall, and Defog, since no matter how innovative we as humans might be, we can't control natural forces. Second: An HM doesn't really do a great job of signifying trust and care for Pokemon as much as you think it does. The fact that I can teach Cut to a Sandshew I caught on Route 4 and just kept it in the PC is evidence of that, since this Sandshew would likely not trust me since I never cared to use it. Like you said at the top, an HM is just a roadblocker meant to artificially slow down your progression, just like Badges. You don't want the player being able to travel to Victory Road as a new trainer and catch lv 50 Pokemon and sweep through everything with it. Third: Backtracking is an interesting point, and it does get kind of lost if you aren't careful. But I think backtracking in recent games have been somewhat preserved. For example, if you want to collect all the Wisps in PLA you need to backtrack, and since the Wisps summons Spiritomb whose needed to meet Arceus, you'll want to do this. Not all the games have done a good job at backtracking, and even the ones that do a decent job don't make it clear. In ORAS, if you're an older player like you or myself, then you'll know the Eon Ticket and what it does. If you've never played the originals, seen the movies, or whatever then you wouldn't know what the Eon Ticket does and would likely forget about it. As for your idea, I do like it but it could be better. For example, having the "Secret Techniques" bound to different Pokemon will take up ALOT of memory space. Do we really need 200 different Pokemon animations and intros for Fly? No. Or, do we really need 200 Pokemon whose only purpose is to be a glorified HM Taxi? No. The way Let's Go did it was great, but was kind of silly since your little Fox could summon balloons to carry you around. PLA was almost perfect. If the Guardians were legendaries so their'd only be 1 of each, and we had to not only catch them but also work with them so they learned the "Secret Technique" then it'd be great, but I feel as though the Pokemon shouldn't be on our Party just to have access to it. Honestly, do you really want to get into a surprise gang fight with a Sneasler on your team? I mean, it's good for battling Aces and such, but would you really want to use it against Team Rocket or Team Flare? Giovanni has or had a Mewtwo, and Lysander wants to commit mass murder, you really going to trust Sneasler against them?
I think HM's would have worked well in sword & shield as there is a free move tutor at every Pokemon centre. If Scarlett and Violet are the same in that regard I see no issues with it. Having a HM mule on your team also makes the game slightly more difficult which would be nice.
I've had a similar idea for awhile. I'd never considered the value of having the moves tied to quests or achievements the way you did though. My idea was for certain pokemon to simply HAVE certain inate abilities, such as being able to move boulders, clear brush, or carry you across water(or up cliffs, or through the sky, etc). The goal here wouldn't be to find a secret skill, but just to find a pokemon with the abilities you need. (I think they did something like this in Polemon Ranger?). So much like in Let's GO, once you have a pokemon you can ride, you can ride it. (Maybe you need to have a certain affinity with it first, which could vary depending on the pokemon.) But basically, if you have a pidgeot you can fly. If you have a lapras you can surf. If you have a machoke you can move borders. And maybe some pokemone can do multiple things. A machamp can move borders AND carry you up cliffs. A charizard can fly you around, clear brush, AND move boulders.
Eh, not sure Fidget. HMs are only that impactful for the rookie and novice trainer. Otherwise experienced players just started grabbing utility mons which yes you have to catch but they get boxed and only used to get past these hm obstacles. Which essentially is what these uber hm mons from later gens represent. I was always in the camp that like in the anime, if the pokemon knew a move or how the ability to fly or surf naturally, then that should be allowed. So I agree Let's Go came to the closes to representing that. But I will never miss the headache of HMs taking up either a move slots or replacing party members for utility mons that have no other purpose. So to each their own, but I don't miss HMs. I get their original purpose but don't bring them back lol
I accept they were flawed and your point about experienced players basically catching pokemon as utility and then boxing them is valid. But, I think that just shows there was room for growth and I think that maybe too much of the original intent has been lost as we've strayed away from HMs
@@CaptainFidget I agree, if the original intent had been handled like you said with let's go it would have been better. Like if I had a Bulbasaur with vine whip or razor leaf then in could cut down trees. Therefore I still have that connection with my mon and we advance through the game without losing a move slot. Or having a Sandslash or Scyther. If it was more natural than banging a disk on their head first then the the original intent would have been better received. I've always thought this, it's just the games went that route of utility mons since that's seemed to be how players adapted to playing since the original intent was muddled under the hassle of either sacrificing a party member which sucked in Victory Road when trying to get as much experience before the league as you can, or sacrificing a move slot which limits your coverage. Especially for water types since they usually make you spend two for Waterfall and Surf. If gen 4 didn't make you need 6 HMs to get through Victory Road without getting lost, HMs probably wouldn't have been a bother, but that's like half my team that's got either waste a move slot or two or I have to box to get through the end of the game which by that point I want to use the team I've built up to that point. So no HMs lol keep the mini games and cooking to build bonds with your mons. I'd rather do that on my down time instead. Because those HM obstacles aren't as challenging as much as they're just exhausting.
I feel the same way, the best version of HMs/Ride Pokemon would be special technique that you have to earn or find while playing. They don't take up a move slot and can be used by any specific pokemon that fits with the technique, so long as you have one in your party or in your box. For Fly as an example you'd need either a Flying Type or a Pokemon that levitates, either in your party or your box. Since the box is basically right in your back pocket it would also make thematic sense why you'd be able to Fly without having one in your party, since your character could in the cutscene that plays just switch out a mon in your party with a mon that can fly, go where you want, and then switch them back. The only downside would be that you don't have the model of each possible mon to fly with, but rather the black blobs of Pokemon silhouettes we've had in previous gens. Surf, Dive and Waterfall could all work with any Water Type, or you lock Dive and Waterfall to bigger/stronger Water Types only. Cut can be universally used by all mons, cuz why on earth wouldn't they, Rock Smash and Rock Climb by any Fighting, Rock and Ground Type, and so on. It would make the gameplay experience so much smoother and would be an amazing Quality Of Life ungrade.
I think that maybe for Scarlet and Violet, there could tests of strength and bond between you and the legendary that act as short dungeons or trials, and at the end of them you get a new ability, and after you do all of the trials, they then become your Pokémon
I can see where your coming from but the legendary are going to be caught later. You develop this bond then catch them like you earn them. If they went with your idea then I think everyone would be down for it.
I am interested to see what they do with the box art legends. As I say, it just doesn't sit right with me to have them so early but I'm open to see what they have to offer in terms of story
When I first saw this video, I ignored it, because my gut reaction was that it would be bad. After watching the whole thing, though, I'm kicking myself for not giving it a chance sooner. I agree with basically all of it, and I like your idea at the end for how to make HMs work. Gameplay wise, I personally prefer the way Let's Go did it, but it could easily go either way for me and I think I'd be happy. Since this was made pre-SV, I do think the devs did an amazing job making Koraidon and Miraidon characters we care about, so it feels good to help them regain their power and ride around on epic sandwich-loving motorbike lizards. However, the video does still hit on a concern I personally have had with the series, which is the overemphasis on player convenience at the cost of a rich experience. The way Galar and Paldea handle move tutors is the most obvious culprit to me. As in, Galar hardly has any, and Paldea has NONE. The function previously served by tutors has been subsumed entirely by TMs, and while it might be more convenient to not have to seek out a particular Trainer, it also saps a lot of the life from the world. You aren't seeking out some grand tutor who knows a move too powerful for anything but dragons, or earning points in hard-fought battles to improve your team. You're grinding mobs for drops like an MMO. I feel similarly about a lot of mechanics changes, to be honest, like Eggs now being available at any picnic instead of from a Daycare. At the very least I feel these should be rewards, things you unlock by engaging with the world and, you know, _playing the damn game you spent $60+ on_ for crying out loud. Like we're not talking about raising a competitive team, we're talking about the actual role-playing experience of the role-playing game.
You make some decent points here but your last paragraph is utter nonsense. Like what does a daycare really add? Also people are _playing_ the $60 game, it just plays differently to what you want which requires a different kind of reward system or something. Your point is not super clear since the game does still reward players for certain things so I just don't understand the complaint that this game doesn't let the player, y'know, play the game or engage with the world in anyway. I'm not even trying to defend SV here, it has it's fair share of problems, I just don't get what you're on about at the end there.
The biggest problem with HMs was always that most of them were trash. That's why the one HM no one ever complains about is Surf, because it's not just good, it's one of the best water movies in any game. To a lesser extent the same could have applied to Waterfall starting in gen4 when it made a niche for itself as one of the best water moves for physical attackers... although there was still a huge problem in redundancy since being only learned by Pokémon that also learn surf, players instead felt pressured into doubling up with two very similar moves on the same Pokémon, or else doubling up by running a team with two water types. Seriously, consider how different opinions might have been if there had never been a Body Slam, and it was instead Strength that hit for 85 power with a chance to paralyze. Or if there was no Slash, and it was cut that hit for 70 power with a high crit chance. Or if there was no Brick Break, and it was Rock Smash that hit for 75 power while breaking screens. If HM were actually good moves that people wanted to use, they might even have been universally beloved.
At that time when HMs where a big thing I hated them, but when they took it away in bdsp i really missed them, because my pokemon team was based around them... so then a lot of my pokemon really didn't have a purpose.
I agree with gen 7 and gen 8 ride pokemon not sitting right with me, but I never felt like HMs created that "personal connection" that you seem to feel with them; and this is because they choke the movesets. In my mind, pokemon and customizing then to my unique playstyle is what makes them feel special and personal to me, so HMs choke that. For past pokemon games I'd usually have an HM slave or two that I would literally only take out of the box for specific roadblocks and throw them back into the PC as soon as possible. (Which had even made me feel bad sometimes) I also don't like that they were difficult to find; I think X and Y was an improvement in not requiring many HMs and giving them all straight to you, because going out of my way just to get through an annoying and suffocating roadblock was never fun to me That being said, the legendaries in scarlet and violet aren't sitting right with me either. I liked the ride pokemon in arceus legends because that felt more personal, like overcoming obstacles or working in unison with a pokemon to travel or accomplish something. The legendaries in scarlet and violet also theoretically have this, but it just doesn't feel right because legendaries are supposed to be special, but ride pokemon just aren't usually very special, or maybe game freak just hasn't done a very good job of making them feel special.
I understand why HMs were there, but honestly, as someone who grew up with Gen 3 and 4, I absolutely hated HMs! My main problem with them is that they are not easily replaceable, you can only do so at the move deleter, so you are going to be stuck with them for a while. And even if they were replaceable, TMs were single use only, so you couldn't switch them back and forth. All of this results in me having to sacrifice 2 squad slots just to have HM slaves stuck with terrible moves. I do not mind Surf, or Waterfall (which I actually teached to my Swampert) since those are actually good moves, but I hated being stuck with Cut, Defog and the other terrible ones. They could have fixed this by having the HMs take it's own move slot, like a 5th slot that can only be used in exploration. And if you wanted to use them in battle, you can just move it into one of the 4 battle slots. But they didn't do that, so we are stuck with them. I am glad Gen 5 cut down on them. You only need Cut once in BW and that's it. I caught a level 5 Patrat just for that, then he went right back in the PC lol. The rest are optional. TMs are now unlimited too, which is great. I still love Gen 3 and 4, do not get me wrong. Gen 3 is my favourite too, I love it so much. But Gen 5 takes the second place easily for me.
While I’m sure we all hated HMS and needed at least one HM mule I agree when they were removed it was one of the many things that took the challenge out of the games
I just hate when it requires you to have a water/flying/ground/etc type on your team and takes up a move slot permanently. As long as they can find a way to do it without those aspects I’d gladly except them back. I agree that summoning random ride Pokémon is dumb, but in scarlet and Violet the legendary Pokémon literally befriends you and as you travel together (and gain new traversal moves) your bond grows. Imo Let’s Go did it best
Man I’m ngl I don’t miss HMs. I like what you said about them not being your Pokémon, but when I’m playing HGSS and need cut to enter Erica’s gym AFTER beating the elite four it’s kinda ridiculous 😂
HMs we’re annoying. I’m glad they got rid of them. Plus it’s a man Open world Pokémon game like you said and it won’t make sense to get HMs in this type of game. Plus we don’t get all the legendary’s abilities from the start. We have to unlock them through special means in the story. You make great points but personally I’m glad we have awesome Pokémon to aid us even awesome that the legendary Pokémon chose you as a worthy person to assist, same with legends. Also technically The scarlet and Violet Legendaries are yours tho eventually. It’s not like they offer rides to other people but they chose a worthy trainer to aid. Eventually the legends will think you are way worthy enough to be around that it will allow you to catch them. You essentially own 7 Pokémon. (8 counting the Rotom phone).
I hated the way BDSP handled HMs because of the way it broke the level design. So many areas have little shortcuts or optional areas being blocked by Cuttable trees or smashable rocks as a little reward for players who came truly prepared for exploration with HMs. If you don't have the HMs, you either have to take the long way/skip the items or come back later. You get to weigh the pros and cons of having an HM Mule, which will hurt your team's battling capabilities, or not having one, which will hurt your exploration capabilities. Meanwhile, in BDSP, once you unlock an HM you have permanent access to an HM once you unlock it. This makes every single cuttable tree past the first five or so routes of the game entirely superfluous. They aren't obstacles, and having to cut them down is just busywork. There's no risk vs reward. I will say, though, that even if they had kept the HM system from the originals, that it would still have been broken by the inclusion of the Box Link, since you could just pull out an HM Mule from your Box for two seconds to clear an obstacle. I'm not really sure what the solution is. Maybe they could've only given us the Box Link after beating the game?
I completely agree. There could be a way for some people who don’t want to use their own Pokémon, I’ve seen people who don’t want to catch Pokémon (or they’re playing a nuzlocke), so that would be good for them. Otherwise your solution is great
I haven't fully watched the video yet so you may have touched on this near the end, but Scarlet and Violet are meant to be open world, meaning there are not supposed to be road blocks. Adding HMs at this point would not make sense. A good example is World of Warcraft, a massively open world game. At level 1 you can access level 20, 40, 60+ zones, the only roadblock being whether or not you bought the expansion for that zone. Should you go into these areas? probably not as you will die, but you are still physically able to go there. If we get an open world game, I do not want roadblocks, I want to run to my doom like any other open world game I've played. Edit: I watched the remainder of the video, and while I do agree with what you said for some games, I do disagree with others. Personally I prefer HMs being handed to you in some aspects as the alternative is often annoying and a waste of time. Every time I try to get surf in red and blue I have to look up walk throughs because figuring it out yourself requires you to have a good sense of memory, something I do not have, and if you mess up, you have to restart. I did not like the ride pokemon in sun and moon so I can agree with you there, and I do understand the taxi service issue as well. But for me at least, I like the concepts brought in with Legends Arceus and how it appears to be in Scarlet and Violet. I never liked the arbitrary roadblocks in the older games, especially when its roadblocks that don't have an obvious solution such as characters blocking your path because of a power outage or something. There have been many times I run around not knowing what I need to do to progress. This completely screwed me over in BDSP in Hearthome as I had to look up what the hell I had to do to get passed the two sets of characters blocking your path as there was no indicator of what you needed to do. I didn't know the gym leader was the option because I was used to her being the 5th leader, not the 3rd so I came to the conclusion that something else was needed to be done, it wasn't until I exhausted all other options did I finally look it up and see that they changed the gym leader rotation, which I believe was a platinum thing? I never played platinum, only diamond, so I did not know this change was possible. TLDR I guess, I just don't like arbitrary roadblocks. the only roadblock I want is simply being too low level to even survive. back when I first played World of Warcraft, I loved exploring and I never had to worry about being stuck in a small area because a tree is in the way or two NPCs can't scoot over, I just had to worry about higher level beasts noticing and one-shotting me. To me that was inventive to level, a tree blocking your path is no incentive to do anything.
I hate so much HMs! First, because I "lost" my Swampert once, as it became my HM slave. Second, the idea of having to teach a Pidgeot how to fly or a Lapras how to swim is ridiculous! That's also why I don't like the secret techniques so much. In my opinion, Legends Arceus did it best. You have to fight, to do something for that Pokémon to help you. I also like the Galar way, just use an item instead plus the taxi, a service that for sure would existe in the Pokémon World. But not using your Pokémon on a Pokémon game is not fun at all. The way I see it, you should only have to use your own Pokémon, with moves they can use in battle too. Again, Pidgeot and Lapras should already be able to fly and surf, respectively. Instead of depending on a specific move, you would need a specific type. If a Pokémon can use a water-type move, it should be able to swim, because it has affinity with the water element. Same goes for flying-type moves and fly. Any Pokémon that knows a fighting-type attack should be able to smash rocks and even trees (if you can easily break rocks and even steel, you can do the same with wood). Maybe replace flash with the fire or electric-type. Strength with fighting, or psychic (because telekinesis) or normal (pushing things around is pretty normal). You would need a diverse team with you, with a diverse move-set. I really wish Game Freak would use mechanics outside of battle more frequently. Like teleport and sweet scent, normal moves you can use outside of battle. Same goes for abilities, what if we could use levitate or cloud nine in the overworld?
No one wants hm's were you have to get a move that's permanent everyone wants the Pokemon taxi service we want a dart around the map a legendary we want to run around aloha on a Tauros and a Sharpedo that's just the cooler and easier way to do things
I'm full HM stan. They quite literally help the pace of the old games by limiting player teams. The newer games NEED this for pacing, challenge, and connecting to your teams of mons beyond battles. Sorry guys, you want your full battle team to be along side you in all your battles? Then don't complain anymore about how EASY the newer games are and how small enemy teams are. You deserve this.
And YES, that means you need to lose a move to the HM. Not having them take up a move slot is still no better than Alolas system. But HMs should be deletable.
Personally, I think having all of them from the beginning is better than needing to find them. In an open world game, I find a place that I want to go and I go there. But it would be really frustrating to need to go find an ability to progress. I want to be able to just go challenge every boss immediately, like in BOTW. These are just my thoughts, great if you disagree. Some healthy disagreement and some permutation is what will actually make a game and system almost everyone will enjoy.
I've not played breath of the wild, but weren't a bunch of the rune abilities hidden in dungeons? That's the kind of thing I'm suggesting. Also, love me some healthy disagreement and productive discussions :)
Fair enough. So once you get your glider you're good to go. How long does the tutorial usually take to go through? I remember Skyrim being my first open world game and being disappointed about how long I was stuck going down a straight path during the tutorial
@@CaptainFidget I haven’t played through it in awhile, I think it’s about 40mins, but almost all of that is gameplay, one long cutscene, but very little dialogue.
My opinion? Doesn’t need to be a legendary. What we need is key items that help us with these roadblocks. That way it won’t take up move slots on the team.
To be honest the solution is a smart idea like if you need to break a rock get a heracross teach it the technique and then heracross charges down to break it thats a smart idea I would love to see it in gen 10 or black and white remakes whenever it happens 🤔🤩🤩
Now that the game is out i think they are great overall but they move too fast or the map is too small for them... also Id lovo to ride my arcanine instead of koraidon
I feel like we're skipping some steps here. You made a great point as to why HMs arent better right off the bat - theyre bad moves. Ride pokemon in alola and legends I think were perfect because functionally they were the same. The problem with the rides in Paldea is that you seemingly get them all at once, but, I'd be cautious assuming that. I think they might become better rides as you grow. I do think that having one pokemon for every ride is bit boring though.
It's hard to say. Obviously, until the games come out nothing is for certain and all we have to go off is the preview gameplay where people had all the ride forms. If there is a way to unlock the forms on your journey then it's basically what I've asked for minus them being your pokemon. Thought this was a fun discussion to have though as we edge closer to release
@@CaptainFidget From what I've heard in the previews, while they had all abilities for their time slot, it's something we'd unlock through progression so I don't think the point about the reward being lost for those who re-travel is true. Just looking at the map of Paldea, it's incredibly detailed and I can only imagine how long it'll take to discover all the secrets. I also don't like the original approach of just finding them in the wild because it makes them feel unspecial. I played Hoenn games from release and it wasn't until a few years back that I realized I never found cut. Entire sections of the game were just... gone and looking back, I felt like the game said it wasn't important. Not to mention, to have all HM's on hand would typically take up two (if not more) slots of my team. I personally find the best implementation for HMs to be in the Alola games, and for the problems I have with that generation, I feel ride Pokemon were the perfect balance between the two (up to this point in the series). I didn't mind them not being my Pokemon in that region because of the hospitality of the region, it felt like an integral part of world-building. After playing Legends for... more time than I admittedly should, I have my own personal way which I would implement them. We have ride Pokemon with areas set up to unlock them. Let's go with the newest releases for this, where a teacher in the school could have quests for this, so if you want to focus on them and unlock them sooner, you can. These quests would have you search for, catch, raise & evolve a specific species for the role. So in legends, we'd need to catch a Stantler and evolve it. Not only making the ride Pokemon more meaningful for us but doesn't go to far back to the old days. I would argue the worst part of having them linked up to a legendary is taking away the specialness of our box legendary. I feel these two are two of the most interesting box legends since gen 6 imho but just getting them early on and riding them rubs me up the wrong way... maybe I'm wrong and will regret saying this but that is my biggest concern with the new games heading into their release.
Alright, I'll try to listen to the end before commenting here. I am ok with having HMs to stop me in the game and force me to go out and talk with the NPCs. The thing I am not ok with is having to have "HM slaves", and yes, slaveS because at this point you have more than 4 mandatory moves to have to go through a cave (looking at you gen 3 victory road). Which is why I would be ok with the idea of HMs that do not take a slot, or kind of like in BDSP (which by the way I am surprised you did not talk about in this video). You need the HM, you need a pokemon that could technically "learn" it, but you don't have to sacrifice your precious move slots.
Unlike ride pokemons, you still have the part where you need to find the HM, they were not handed to you in gen 4 (I believe they kept the same locations in the remake). You also need the corresponding gym badge. Also borrowing wild pokemon's help is close to me to what pokemon rangers do, which is why I don't view it as negatively as you do probably 😅 The part that I was emphasizing the most is I just don't want my HMs to take a slot. 😂
No one wants HMS ask a honest Pokemon fan or Pokemon game enjoyer what would you like dark around the map wherever you like on a legendary or have these lame moves that don't do much in battle and are stuck to your Pokemon unless you find a move the move deleter who would want that
I miss HMs. Even in the older games, I think HMs should have been used more often. The main one I am talking about is Johto allowing you to battle Chuck, Jasmine, or Pryce in any order. A Whirlpool roadblock for Route 40, forcing Pryce to be the fifth Johto gym leader, would have improved the level curve and pacing of the Johto games slightly. I know that I can just edit the levels in my Crystal romhack to make it clear that Pryce is Gym #5, Chuck is Gym #6, and Jasmine is Gym #7 if there is no way for me to add the Route 40 Whirlpool roadblock but then people would not know about this change until they play the romhack if I ever decide to make it available for people to play.
awful take detected, awful take detected. edit: now that i see the vid okay i understand, your mons helping you overcome the enviroment and stuf, its not bad, but like, I feel most of these moves are unnecesary, why do you need to JUST cut a tree, why not use a fire type to burn it, or something like that, I feel having them take up your move slots and tainting your team is bad, i think being able to use your pokemon with their very own skills and powers to overcome obstacles with you
While i dont mind legendary mounts being HMs, i do agree should be like other monster tamer games such as raidou devil summoner, world of final fantasy, and monster sanctuary having them passive field skills instead. After beat main story scarvio, boxart legendary becomes catchable to join your party. They just dont want you to blitz through whole game with a legendary from the start lol.
I agree HMs were useful for gating off progress but if you're going to convince me HMs are better they need thier own slot outside the 4 moves and no battle value. In an open world environment with no need for gating progress I think they aren't needed personally. Love the discussion though!
He literally said that they wouldn't affect the main four moves.
@@plpfangyrl and? Lol I'm not saying he didn't im saying basically I agree
@@chaosdragun1608 Sorry, the weird structure confused me.
You should just be able to ride Pokémon in general I’m sure their getting to that point.
Metroidvania progression my beloved, why did they remove you from Pokemon?
(Paldea is not a good enough map to actually enforce it.)
Nah fuck hms I absolutely refuse to back to times where I would need a pretty much mandatory water and flying type on the team and also waste a move slot on top of that
The franchise is about building a connection with all Pokémon not just yours
It’s an allegory for respecting nature
The anime teaches the same message
All Pokémon are friends
I think it'd be cool if the brought HMs back. They could simply have the player teach it to their pokemon as a different kind of move, like say a non battle move slot. Meaning it's a move you can use in the overworld, but it's not a move that takes up a battle move slot and you can't use it during battle. The only issue is Fly and Surf, because they are actually decent moves in battle so maybe you could still teach them as a battle move too, if you were so inclined. There, HM/ride pokemon problem solved.
I would say after playing Monster Hunter Stories 2 I like riding on Monsters in general so Pokemon implementing them in Pokemon Legends Arceus was good and I like that as the HM replacement and not a fan of them because I had to use a HM Slave in the past. If HMs were to return it should be more like similar to ride system in Monster Hunter Stories 2.
Agreed. Though I still like the idea of finding the techniques
Personally Imo I think it should be like it is in the newer games when u can use HMs in the wild by using a wild pokemon while if u wish u can teach hm moves like surf or strength to ur party if u wish.
I’m pretty sure we’ll be able to do that, I don’t see why would be able to teach other Pokémon moves like surf
@@562.anthony2 true but Surf is a pretty powerful move in itself esp the earlier gens.
So to me, I think the box art legendary being the HM user is actually kinda funny to me, since thats how I used my legendaries as a kid. It just made them cooler, since I use my legendary/starter to help me out, rather than some random mon. I think people genuinely overeacted as to how "bad" they were, since I was able to beat Cynthia as a kid with my box art legendary and starter quite literally having movepools with mostly hms.
Yes!! As long as it is a secret technique outside of their 4 move slots, I am down! I thought Arceus got close and LGPE were golden! Make them rewards. I loved in Arceus that each ride pokemon allowed me to go back to earlier maps to explore new parts of that area.
Yes that is how I would want it. Hm like abillities on a seperate slot uther then attack moves or ride pokemon. Hms wer always anoying and mostely usless to me. Besides fly and serf wich wer good for travell and battle almostecevery uther one was terable in battle and just took up slots for good moves. An hm pokemon wasn't even trained. Hou dump hms on it and used it for exploring but not bzttle. It took up a slot in your party for those you would eather be training. I realy can't see how people want them back at all unless it's cause they say it ads chalenge to train your pokemon and explore or just want the origional formula back. I'v ben playing sence red and never liked hms.
Woo boy. The title is already scary but I'll have an open mind and try to get the picture hopefully
appreciate the approach
I like the idea of your party pokemon specifically helping you traverse the region, but I don't have a problem with the legendaries doing it. I think they will be closer to you than just rides, since the trailers show some sort of initial interaction with them you have on the beach. I think they'll grow closer to you as you ride them and eventually, likely in post game, become part of your party. And to me, HMs wouldn't make sense for this game because it would require me to go in a certain order instead of being able to go anywhere I want, which is how I think an open world game should be.
If you think you're going insane just remember that this guy exists
Lmao yes
Then you deserve scarlet and violet, and all future games with crappy gameplay.
I know I am crazy, but I refuse to believe that liking HMs is part of my madness.
The Metroidvania genre exists, after all.
Am I the only person consciously aware that they enjoyed the metroidvania aspect of the DS and GBA titles?
Guys, you have a PC, you can use more than six pokemon total.
I would love to see your updated thoughts now that the games are out
I just want to be able to use all my Pokémon to travel without needing to use a certain move or using a generic bike/legendary. Like how Let’s Go has but with a bigger selection of Pokémon.
Now that I’ve watched the video entirely, I kinda have to agree with you. Unlocking new methods of travel by getting these techniques and sharing them with your caught partners would be really cool. Something more like Field Skills in Xenoblade.
glad you were willing to hear me out and enjoyed what I had to say
@@CaptainFidget of course. Like anyone who plays these games, I want the immersion. I want to feel like my own personal journey through the region matters. While something like the bike or specific key items that would get you past roadblocks can help you on that journey, it really doesn’t tie into the journey itself. I really think that it makes a lot more sense for certain Pokémon to simply possess the ability to traverse the region in different ways. That way you can still be about you and your Pokémon without having to take away from anything else you’ve got. The only technical wrench that’s thrown in there is if you want to do certain challenge runs or other types of play through‘s where your pool of available Pokémon is small.
But in those kind of runs people have usually allowed HM users anyway so it shouldn't be an issue. But 8 see your point
@@CaptainFidget True, and even then, the pools of Pokémon we have to work with a lot larger than they used to be. Like, if something of the sort was implemented in generation eight or generation nine and I wanted to only use ghost types, we at least have enough dual types of every type to be able to have necessary things like surf.
I'm sure that's what arceus and sv are trying to do. Gues it needs more work. Maby close the open world abit more and add more ride pokemon and such. Kinda go back to arceus compared to sv or something
hm’s are wrong in every way. even if they didnt take up a move slot it still limits your team of the pokemon u can use
I love how the first few comments are just "no". Perfect "I'm the first here, but need to comment something else" energy.
I love that they clearly just came to react to the title rather than the video
I think the perfect example of why hms are totally hated isn't just cause they need to take up a slot, but it becomes intrusive on your playthrough and overshadow their significance of getting them
That's the entire point of them.
Walking around with 6 fully kitted battle mons simply makes the game too easy.
HMs didn't just halt progression until you get a badge, they also forced you to plan out a team and work with a smaller team while exploring.
You want a game without HMs? Then enjoy the easier games.
@@ChedringNo, they forced you to either teach your Pokemon a nearly useless move, or lose a party slot to a Pokemon with useless moves. HMs in no way made the game harder, just more annoying. I can sweep the Elite 4 with level 70-90 pokemon just as easily in RSE as I can in S/V. Also, strategy? Outside of Surf and Fly, which are actually decent HMs so you'd just give it to your water and flying team members. Every other HM is very area specific. So you can just teach it to one of your box Pokemon and then swap them in and out when needed.
You want a pokemon game without progression based exploration?
Play a battle simulator.
I actually quite like the idea of techniques you unlock for your party to use. And I agree that the fact that your actual team feels like they’re playing less and less of a role in how you explore is a bit of a sad trend.
I have to agree that LGPE did it best, but I disagree that HMs are better.
I'd rather the traversal method be intrinsic to the region, rather than arbitrarily, "make your pokemon do X". Ride Pokemon in Alola actually felt like it was something people did regularly, same with Corviknight taxis in Galar. BDSP did it bad, but we'll ignore that for now. And with Miraidon/Koraidon, at least we see other people using Cyclizar to get around the world, so it feels natural, and clearly there is a big story element to the legendaries. I just hope the story is a bit better than how PLA did it, which just kind of felt contrived to an extent.
HMs are inherintly bad for team building since they take up a move slot. To be able to fly in Y, I have to swap out a team member every time, just because I didn't want a pokemon with wings on my team. That SUCKS. LGPE gets around this by it not being a move on your pokemon, and as you said, thats better, but I'd still rather not be reliant on having pokemon with special characteristics to be able to do X, Y or Z. If you don't have Charizard, Dragonite or Aerodactyl on your team in LGPE, you can't ride in the sky. If you don't have specific larger pokemon, you can't move fast. That STINKS. Just give me a ride Pokemon so I can do it if I want a team of small mammalian creatures. Y'know?
I think Miraidon and Koraidon are the best ride Pokemon have been. They are with you the entire story, but don't take up a party slot, so your team can bet whatever you want it to be. They are present and hang out and play with your pokemon, and you can treat them like any party member when doing picnic, and important relationship building tool missing from PLA. They are intrinsic to the plot, meaning you have an important reason to care about them and have a good reason y'all help each other. They feel right in the world, because other people use a similar pokemon in the world for travel. And they unlock more functionality over time, meaning you have to find the ability to traverse water and to climb and to glide; Exploring the world is locked behind building a bond with the legendary.
I don't want them to return to HMs, and if they are going to do it LGPE style, do NOT force me to have certain pokemon on my team. It's why I hated Megas, it's why I hate HMs. If you force player's teams to look a certain way just so they can get around, it means you get Bidoofs tagging along, or having to swap in some random bird you caught purely to fly on. It destroys some of the fun.
So yeah, I don't agree with you here. Even LGPE had problems with it, as cool as it was, and I think SV are doing it the best we've seen yet (though I'm pretty partial to SwSh just handling it all with a bike as well).
Oh, also, the issues you said started in XY actually started in BW. In BW, you didn't need ANY HMs to beat the game, they were all just handed to you, and they weren't even locked behind gym badges, they could all be used as soon as you got them.
Love it! How you managed to bring me back around to wanting HMs was great and unexpected.
I don't think Blue is supposed to be your antithesis. As Oak said, he's been your rival ever since you two were young. How I see it he isn't necessarily bad with people or abusive to his pokemon, he just has a bad motivation.
He's motivated solely by one upping you. He's always one step ahead of you by being in the town first, catching the rarest pokemon (like cubone), beating the gyms first, etc.
Even in the final battle after he built the "strongest team in the world" he wants to battle it against you, his rival, the strongest opponent as he sees it. He's not really taking in the sights or enjoying the ride he's just looking for the next opportunity to rub in your face the fact that he's better than you.
Absolutely disagree, having a Pokémon specially for hms was so annoying.
Yeah, but what if it didn't take up a move slot though. That way you can have any pokemon that could overcome the obstacles. Plus, with the games now allowing for switching from the pc whilst on the go I don't think it's nearly as bad as it used to be
The problem I still have with your solution at the end of the video (I've heard other people suggest similar things in the past) is that it still kinda incentivises an "HM slave" if you don't have a Pokémon on your team that can use a technique. I quite often don't have water types on my team (idk why, I just rarely find myself using one for some reason) so whenever I want to surf in any of the games with HMs I have to catch a separate Pokémon when I need to surf, and have to replace one of my party members for it (arguably worse than replacing a moveslot imo) - your solution doesn't solve this problem, I would still have to catch a water type that I won't want on my team and have to replace one of my team members for it.
I don't think the legendaries being the ride 'mon of this generation will be bad, as the trailers have shown plenty of clips of the player interacting with them outside of riding them, so I'm fairly sure we'll build a bond with them quite easily (especially if you play scarlet - Koraidon is just too adorable to say no to)
I sometimes wonder if HMs were moves taught to Pokemon, but are not useable in battle because they are from a separate category; they're for the overworld. And just like battle moves, they can be developed and can learn stronger moves to open up overworld opportunities. Maybe a Pokemon can surf, but can only surf on such a speed, and only surfing on such speed limits your traversing opportunities out in the sea. Maybe there are islands that can only be reached by Pokemon who have managed to surf faster, or can naturally surf faster. Then maybe they can upgrade and learn dive later on too to open up underwater exploration, or even become strong enough to do waterfall.
I tend to imagine an overworld puzzle, like let's say a natural underground water system, and one of those underground rivers has a stronger stream and current. Going through it contains a legendary or unlocks a lore, but you need a Pokemon who has learned to surf faster that can overcome strong currents by that point. I dunno. Thoughts like this x3
Interesting ideas. If hms came back as techniques it could work really well alongside the Terastal phenomenon. Like if you don't have a Pokemon capable of flying, a pokemon with a flying Terastal type could be able to do the flying technique.
best example to refining it would be xenoblade 2, each blade has inner value from typing, passive abilities and even potentially unique abilities - that's what pokemon needs, keep the HMs and have certain things require the move as well as the stat check to a problem, this way average exploration is done just by the mons in party but always have those higher challenges that require the actual HMs
same to the job system in that game, SwSh tried but created just a weaker system to it overall, where u send them out and sometimes interconnect to main quest parts or even unlocks other side quests by having certain mons
I totally agree HMs get undue hate. They're a great exploration tool and reward as well as a handy level barrier. They also remind me alot of Metroidvanias in that it gives you a reason to return to older areas.
The games should be intellectually challenging. Be nice to have a "hm challenge" option for experienced players, and a "taxi" option for new players/younger
What's challenging about that exactly? That's like saying using physical cash to pay for something is a challenge when others just use a credit/debit card to pay for it quickly...
@V-jes a more experienced player has to think about move slots for hm moves and a newer player doesn't? seems like a different challenge to me. Welcome to your opinion of course
@@NullnotVoid That's not a challenge in any way but an inconvenience at worst, what is why Gen 7 and beyond stopped doing those, especially when you consider the fact that there's nothing stopping you from just using a HM slave for those anyways...
Fully agree and have been looking for a video just like this. For an open world game like S/V it would benefit experience to have something similar to HMs/field moves to make exploration more interesting and provide puzzles for players to solve.
No need to have it be a move that takes up a slot on one of your pokemon. Instead as long as you the trainer learns the technique through the proper challenge or story progress, you can use that action with any pokemon you own that would be able to learn it.
I'm still for items bring usable such as a bike, surf board, glider, flash light ect. These can provide alternative options that a player might have to grind a bit more cash for and can provide an alternative means of movement that might not be as fast. But with players being able to access their box from anywhere if you really do need to push that boulder or something you can quickly switch one of your party pokemon if none of them can solve the puzzle and switch back after
After you beat the story, you can put the ride pokémon in your party.
*However,* if you decide to ride the ride pokémon, it is *immediately* removed from your party and *not* automatically put back in your party if you dismount, making the ability to put it in your party *absolutely pointless.*
It also has a different Individual Value spread than the one you can catch for the pokédex.
Your ride pokémon is 31\31\28\31\28\31 in Scarlet and 31\28\31\28\31\31 in violet.
The legendary that triggers the pokédex is 25\31\25\31\25\31 or 25\25\31\25\31\31 respectively.
The solution you propose at the end is what I've been saying for years. You'd still require a Pokémon physically capable of Surfing, Flying, etc., it just wouldn't take up a move slot. To unlock them you'd have to complete little quests as you progress through the game to unlock your "flying license", "surfing license", and so on.
Most importantly though, the problem has already been solved by instant party changing. Now that you no longer need to go to a Pokémon Center to switch out your team, you can easily swap in an HM user to cross a body of water and then sub them back out once you're on the other side.
The HMs could stay as glorified TMs if you for some reason wanted to teach them to your Pokémon (but mostly for consistency/transferring old Pokémon up).
personally i agree with some of your takes.
Hm's were a good thing and i'm not a big fan of ride pokemon or the ultra bike, but they don't limit team building like HMs.
What i would prefer is you have to go to a specialist building or out the way town or house which is off the beaten path and battle them, then they teach YOU how to swim, dive and climb rocks.
maybe they give you items to do it, swimming suit, scuba suit, climbing gear.
i'm fine with the taxi as it makes sense in lore they would have a service for it.
Instead of cut i would have a person teach you a techinque so any pokemon with a cutting move can cut trees
(slash, night slash, psycho cut ETC)
or have a fire type move burn the shrubs down (less likely as forest fires and all that).
strength could just be any pokemon you own with a ATK over 100 can just move them, locks it to mid game to late game but can be used earlier if have a pokemon with massive ATK, allowing your choice of team members to matter.
Doing these would allow you to explore with any team you want but still need to use your pokemon to get the techinques or items, making them like trials you need to go out of your way to look for and over come.
Going to try and counter some of your points.
First: people in Kanto didn't need to teach Cut to a Pokemon to get around. For instance, the "Cut Master" can use "Cut" to progress by using a sword or whatever (It's been 20 years since I last played Gen 1 without glitches, so give me a break if I forget small details). In most games people are using tools to help, such as Mining Lamps and Shoves in the case of Workers, or in the case of Gen 1 the Sailors aboard the SS Ann will say how they like to lift with their Machops. Of course, there are also Swimmers and Surfers on boards. That right there eliminates the need for at least Cut, Flash and Surf, with a possibility of Strength. There's also Pilots, so we know Planes are a thing, which eliminates Fly. The only HMs that can't easily be replaced are Whirlpool, Waterfall, and Defog, since no matter how innovative we as humans might be, we can't control natural forces.
Second: An HM doesn't really do a great job of signifying trust and care for Pokemon as much as you think it does. The fact that I can teach Cut to a Sandshew I caught on Route 4 and just kept it in the PC is evidence of that, since this Sandshew would likely not trust me since I never cared to use it. Like you said at the top, an HM is just a roadblocker meant to artificially slow down your progression, just like Badges. You don't want the player being able to travel to Victory Road as a new trainer and catch lv 50 Pokemon and sweep through everything with it.
Third: Backtracking is an interesting point, and it does get kind of lost if you aren't careful. But I think backtracking in recent games have been somewhat preserved. For example, if you want to collect all the Wisps in PLA you need to backtrack, and since the Wisps summons Spiritomb whose needed to meet Arceus, you'll want to do this. Not all the games have done a good job at backtracking, and even the ones that do a decent job don't make it clear. In ORAS, if you're an older player like you or myself, then you'll know the Eon Ticket and what it does. If you've never played the originals, seen the movies, or whatever then you wouldn't know what the Eon Ticket does and would likely forget about it.
As for your idea, I do like it but it could be better. For example, having the "Secret Techniques" bound to different Pokemon will take up ALOT of memory space. Do we really need 200 different Pokemon animations and intros for Fly? No. Or, do we really need 200 Pokemon whose only purpose is to be a glorified HM Taxi? No. The way Let's Go did it was great, but was kind of silly since your little Fox could summon balloons to carry you around. PLA was almost perfect. If the Guardians were legendaries so their'd only be 1 of each, and we had to not only catch them but also work with them so they learned the "Secret Technique" then it'd be great, but I feel as though the Pokemon shouldn't be on our Party just to have access to it. Honestly, do you really want to get into a surprise gang fight with a Sneasler on your team? I mean, it's good for battling Aces and such, but would you really want to use it against Team Rocket or Team Flare? Giovanni has or had a Mewtwo, and Lysander wants to commit mass murder, you really going to trust Sneasler against them?
I think HM's would have worked well in sword & shield as there is a free move tutor at every Pokemon centre. If Scarlett and Violet are the same in that regard I see no issues with it. Having a HM mule on your team also makes the game slightly more difficult which would be nice.
I've had a similar idea for awhile.
I'd never considered the value of having the moves tied to quests or achievements the way you did though.
My idea was for certain pokemon to simply HAVE certain inate abilities, such as being able to move boulders, clear brush, or carry you across water(or up cliffs, or through the sky, etc). The goal here wouldn't be to find a secret skill, but just to find a pokemon with the abilities you need. (I think they did something like this in Polemon Ranger?).
So much like in Let's GO, once you have a pokemon you can ride, you can ride it. (Maybe you need to have a certain affinity with it first, which could vary depending on the pokemon.)
But basically, if you have a pidgeot you can fly. If you have a lapras you can surf. If you have a machoke you can move borders.
And maybe some pokemone can do multiple things. A machamp can move borders AND carry you up cliffs. A charizard can fly you around, clear brush, AND move boulders.
Eh, not sure Fidget. HMs are only that impactful for the rookie and novice trainer. Otherwise experienced players just started grabbing utility mons which yes you have to catch but they get boxed and only used to get past these hm obstacles. Which essentially is what these uber hm mons from later gens represent.
I was always in the camp that like in the anime, if the pokemon knew a move or how the ability to fly or surf naturally, then that should be allowed. So I agree Let's Go came to the closes to representing that. But I will never miss the headache of HMs taking up either a move slots or replacing party members for utility mons that have no other purpose.
So to each their own, but I don't miss HMs. I get their original purpose but don't bring them back lol
I accept they were flawed and your point about experienced players basically catching pokemon as utility and then boxing them is valid. But, I think that just shows there was room for growth and I think that maybe too much of the original intent has been lost as we've strayed away from HMs
@@CaptainFidget I agree, if the original intent had been handled like you said with let's go it would have been better. Like if I had a Bulbasaur with vine whip or razor leaf then in could cut down trees. Therefore I still have that connection with my mon and we advance through the game without losing a move slot. Or having a Sandslash or Scyther. If it was more natural than banging a disk on their head first then the the original intent would have been better received.
I've always thought this, it's just the games went that route of utility mons since that's seemed to be how players adapted to playing since the original intent was muddled under the hassle of either sacrificing a party member which sucked in Victory Road when trying to get as much experience before the league as you can, or sacrificing a move slot which limits your coverage. Especially for water types since they usually make you spend two for Waterfall and Surf.
If gen 4 didn't make you need 6 HMs to get through Victory Road without getting lost, HMs probably wouldn't have been a bother, but that's like half my team that's got either waste a move slot or two or I have to box to get through the end of the game which by that point I want to use the team I've built up to that point.
So no HMs lol keep the mini games and cooking to build bonds with your mons. I'd rather do that on my down time instead. Because those HM obstacles aren't as challenging as much as they're just exhausting.
I feel the same way, the best version of HMs/Ride Pokemon would be special technique that you have to earn or find while playing. They don't take up a move slot and can be used by any specific pokemon that fits with the technique, so long as you have one in your party or in your box.
For Fly as an example you'd need either a Flying Type or a Pokemon that levitates, either in your party or your box. Since the box is basically right in your back pocket it would also make thematic sense why you'd be able to Fly without having one in your party, since your character could in the cutscene that plays just switch out a mon in your party with a mon that can fly, go where you want, and then switch them back. The only downside would be that you don't have the model of each possible mon to fly with, but rather the black blobs of Pokemon silhouettes we've had in previous gens.
Surf, Dive and Waterfall could all work with any Water Type, or you lock Dive and Waterfall to bigger/stronger Water Types only.
Cut can be universally used by all mons, cuz why on earth wouldn't they, Rock Smash and Rock Climb by any Fighting, Rock and Ground Type, and so on.
It would make the gameplay experience so much smoother and would be an amazing Quality Of Life ungrade.
I think that maybe for Scarlet and Violet, there could tests of strength and bond between you and the legendary that act as short dungeons or trials, and at the end of them you get a new ability, and after you do all of the trials, they then become your Pokémon
I can see where your coming from but the legendary are going to be caught later. You develop this bond then catch them like you earn them. If they went with your idea then I think everyone would be down for it.
I am interested to see what they do with the box art legends. As I say, it just doesn't sit right with me to have them so early but I'm open to see what they have to offer in terms of story
@@CaptainFidget that is respectable if I'm being honest. I like the streamline this is happening but I never really played the old games.
When I first saw this video, I ignored it, because my gut reaction was that it would be bad. After watching the whole thing, though, I'm kicking myself for not giving it a chance sooner. I agree with basically all of it, and I like your idea at the end for how to make HMs work. Gameplay wise, I personally prefer the way Let's Go did it, but it could easily go either way for me and I think I'd be happy.
Since this was made pre-SV, I do think the devs did an amazing job making Koraidon and Miraidon characters we care about, so it feels good to help them regain their power and ride around on epic sandwich-loving motorbike lizards. However, the video does still hit on a concern I personally have had with the series, which is the overemphasis on player convenience at the cost of a rich experience.
The way Galar and Paldea handle move tutors is the most obvious culprit to me. As in, Galar hardly has any, and Paldea has NONE. The function previously served by tutors has been subsumed entirely by TMs, and while it might be more convenient to not have to seek out a particular Trainer, it also saps a lot of the life from the world. You aren't seeking out some grand tutor who knows a move too powerful for anything but dragons, or earning points in hard-fought battles to improve your team. You're grinding mobs for drops like an MMO.
I feel similarly about a lot of mechanics changes, to be honest, like Eggs now being available at any picnic instead of from a Daycare. At the very least I feel these should be rewards, things you unlock by engaging with the world and, you know, _playing the damn game you spent $60+ on_ for crying out loud. Like we're not talking about raising a competitive team, we're talking about the actual role-playing experience of the role-playing game.
You make some decent points here but your last paragraph is utter nonsense. Like what does a daycare really add? Also people are _playing_ the $60 game, it just plays differently to what you want which requires a different kind of reward system or something. Your point is not super clear since the game does still reward players for certain things so I just don't understand the complaint that this game doesn't let the player, y'know, play the game or engage with the world in anyway. I'm not even trying to defend SV here, it has it's fair share of problems, I just don't get what you're on about at the end there.
The biggest problem with HMs was always that most of them were trash. That's why the one HM no one ever complains about is Surf, because it's not just good, it's one of the best water movies in any game. To a lesser extent the same could have applied to Waterfall starting in gen4 when it made a niche for itself as one of the best water moves for physical attackers... although there was still a huge problem in redundancy since being only learned by Pokémon that also learn surf, players instead felt pressured into doubling up with two very similar moves on the same Pokémon, or else doubling up by running a team with two water types.
Seriously, consider how different opinions might have been if there had never been a Body Slam, and it was instead Strength that hit for 85 power with a chance to paralyze. Or if there was no Slash, and it was cut that hit for 70 power with a high crit chance. Or if there was no Brick Break, and it was Rock Smash that hit for 75 power while breaking screens.
If HM were actually good moves that people wanted to use, they might even have been universally beloved.
At that time when HMs where a big thing I hated them, but when they took it away in bdsp i really missed them, because my pokemon team was based around them... so then a lot of my pokemon really didn't have a purpose.
That just means you can use your mons can be more like friends and not fucking tools!
I agree with gen 7 and gen 8 ride pokemon not sitting right with me, but I never felt like HMs created that "personal connection" that you seem to feel with them; and this is because they choke the movesets. In my mind, pokemon and customizing then to my unique playstyle is what makes them feel special and personal to me, so HMs choke that. For past pokemon games I'd usually have an HM slave or two that I would literally only take out of the box for specific roadblocks and throw them back into the PC as soon as possible. (Which had even made me feel bad sometimes) I also don't like that they were difficult to find; I think X and Y was an improvement in not requiring many HMs and giving them all straight to you, because going out of my way just to get through an annoying and suffocating roadblock was never fun to me
That being said, the legendaries in scarlet and violet aren't sitting right with me either. I liked the ride pokemon in arceus legends because that felt more personal, like overcoming obstacles or working in unison with a pokemon to travel or accomplish something. The legendaries in scarlet and violet also theoretically have this, but it just doesn't feel right because legendaries are supposed to be special, but ride pokemon just aren't usually very special, or maybe game freak just hasn't done a very good job of making them feel special.
I understand why HMs were there, but honestly, as someone who grew up with Gen 3 and 4, I absolutely hated HMs! My main problem with them is that they are not easily replaceable, you can only do so at the move deleter, so you are going to be stuck with them for a while. And even if they were replaceable, TMs were single use only, so you couldn't switch them back and forth. All of this results in me having to sacrifice 2 squad slots just to have HM slaves stuck with terrible moves.
I do not mind Surf, or Waterfall (which I actually teached to my Swampert) since those are actually good moves, but I hated being stuck with Cut, Defog and the other terrible ones.
They could have fixed this by having the HMs take it's own move slot, like a 5th slot that can only be used in exploration. And if you wanted to use them in battle, you can just move it into one of the 4 battle slots. But they didn't do that, so we are stuck with them.
I am glad Gen 5 cut down on them. You only need Cut once in BW and that's it. I caught a level 5 Patrat just for that, then he went right back in the PC lol. The rest are optional. TMs are now unlimited too, which is great. I still love Gen 3 and 4, do not get me wrong. Gen 3 is my favourite too, I love it so much. But Gen 5 takes the second place easily for me.
While I’m sure we all hated HMS and needed at least one HM mule I agree when they were removed it was one of the many things that took the challenge out of the games
I just hate when it requires you to have a water/flying/ground/etc type on your team and takes up a move slot permanently. As long as they can find a way to do it without those aspects I’d gladly except them back.
I agree that summoning random ride Pokémon is dumb, but in scarlet and Violet the legendary Pokémon literally befriends you and as you travel together (and gain new traversal moves) your bond grows. Imo Let’s Go did it best
Man I’m ngl I don’t miss HMs. I like what you said about them not being your Pokémon, but when I’m playing HGSS and need cut to enter Erica’s gym AFTER beating the elite four it’s kinda ridiculous 😂
Hahaha I had forgotten about that necessity
HMs we’re annoying. I’m glad they got rid of them.
Plus it’s a man Open world Pokémon game like you said and it won’t make sense to get HMs in this type of game.
Plus we don’t get all the legendary’s abilities from the start.
We have to unlock them through special means in the story.
You make great points but personally I’m glad we have awesome Pokémon to aid us even awesome that the legendary Pokémon chose you as a worthy person to assist, same with legends.
Also technically The scarlet and Violet Legendaries are yours tho eventually. It’s not like they offer rides to other people but they chose a worthy trainer to aid. Eventually the legends will think you are way worthy enough to be around that it will allow you to catch them. You essentially own 7 Pokémon. (8 counting the Rotom phone).
I hated the way BDSP handled HMs because of the way it broke the level design.
So many areas have little shortcuts or optional areas being blocked by Cuttable trees or smashable rocks as a little reward for players who came truly prepared for exploration with HMs. If you don't have the HMs, you either have to take the long way/skip the items or come back later. You get to weigh the pros and cons of having an HM Mule, which will hurt your team's battling capabilities, or not having one, which will hurt your exploration capabilities.
Meanwhile, in BDSP, once you unlock an HM you have permanent access to an HM once you unlock it. This makes every single cuttable tree past the first five or so routes of the game entirely superfluous. They aren't obstacles, and having to cut them down is just busywork. There's no risk vs reward.
I will say, though, that even if they had kept the HM system from the originals, that it would still have been broken by the inclusion of the Box Link, since you could just pull out an HM Mule from your Box for two seconds to clear an obstacle. I'm not really sure what the solution is. Maybe they could've only given us the Box Link after beating the game?
I completely agree. There could be a way for some people who don’t want to use their own Pokémon, I’ve seen people who don’t want to catch Pokémon (or they’re playing a nuzlocke), so that would be good for them. Otherwise your solution is great
I haven't fully watched the video yet so you may have touched on this near the end, but Scarlet and Violet are meant to be open world, meaning there are not supposed to be road blocks. Adding HMs at this point would not make sense. A good example is World of Warcraft, a massively open world game. At level 1 you can access level 20, 40, 60+ zones, the only roadblock being whether or not you bought the expansion for that zone. Should you go into these areas? probably not as you will die, but you are still physically able to go there. If we get an open world game, I do not want roadblocks, I want to run to my doom like any other open world game I've played.
Edit: I watched the remainder of the video, and while I do agree with what you said for some games, I do disagree with others. Personally I prefer HMs being handed to you in some aspects as the alternative is often annoying and a waste of time. Every time I try to get surf in red and blue I have to look up walk throughs because figuring it out yourself requires you to have a good sense of memory, something I do not have, and if you mess up, you have to restart.
I did not like the ride pokemon in sun and moon so I can agree with you there, and I do understand the taxi service issue as well. But for me at least, I like the concepts brought in with Legends Arceus and how it appears to be in Scarlet and Violet. I never liked the arbitrary roadblocks in the older games, especially when its roadblocks that don't have an obvious solution such as characters blocking your path because of a power outage or something.
There have been many times I run around not knowing what I need to do to progress. This completely screwed me over in BDSP in Hearthome as I had to look up what the hell I had to do to get passed the two sets of characters blocking your path as there was no indicator of what you needed to do. I didn't know the gym leader was the option because I was used to her being the 5th leader, not the 3rd so I came to the conclusion that something else was needed to be done, it wasn't until I exhausted all other options did I finally look it up and see that they changed the gym leader rotation, which I believe was a platinum thing? I never played platinum, only diamond, so I did not know this change was possible.
TLDR I guess, I just don't like arbitrary roadblocks. the only roadblock I want is simply being too low level to even survive. back when I first played World of Warcraft, I loved exploring and I never had to worry about being stuck in a small area because a tree is in the way or two NPCs can't scoot over, I just had to worry about higher level beasts noticing and one-shotting me. To me that was inventive to level, a tree blocking your path is no incentive to do anything.
I hate so much HMs!
First, because I "lost" my Swampert once, as it became my HM slave.
Second, the idea of having to teach a Pidgeot how to fly or a Lapras how to swim is ridiculous! That's also why I don't like the secret techniques so much.
In my opinion, Legends Arceus did it best. You have to fight, to do something for that Pokémon to help you.
I also like the Galar way, just use an item instead plus the taxi, a service that for sure would existe in the Pokémon World. But not using your Pokémon on a Pokémon game is not fun at all.
The way I see it, you should only have to use your own Pokémon, with moves they can use in battle too. Again, Pidgeot and Lapras should already be able to fly and surf, respectively.
Instead of depending on a specific move, you would need a specific type. If a Pokémon can use a water-type move, it should be able to swim, because it has affinity with the water element. Same goes for flying-type moves and fly. Any Pokémon that knows a fighting-type attack should be able to smash rocks and even trees (if you can easily break rocks and even steel, you can do the same with wood).
Maybe replace flash with the fire or electric-type. Strength with fighting, or psychic (because telekinesis) or normal (pushing things around is pretty normal).
You would need a diverse team with you, with a diverse move-set.
I really wish Game Freak would use mechanics outside of battle more frequently. Like teleport and sweet scent, normal moves you can use outside of battle. Same goes for abilities, what if we could use levitate or cloud nine in the overworld?
No one wants hm's were you have to get a move that's permanent everyone wants the Pokemon taxi service we want a dart around the map a legendary we want to run around aloha on a Tauros and a Sharpedo that's just the cooler and easier way to do things
I'm full HM stan.
They quite literally help the pace of the old games by limiting player teams. The newer games NEED this for pacing, challenge, and connecting to your teams of mons beyond battles.
Sorry guys, you want your full battle team to be along side you in all your battles? Then don't complain anymore about how EASY the newer games are and how small enemy teams are. You deserve this.
And YES, that means you need to lose a move to the HM. Not having them take up a move slot is still no better than Alolas system.
But HMs should be deletable.
Personally, I think having all of them from the beginning is better than needing to find them. In an open world game, I find a place that I want to go and I go there. But it would be really frustrating to need to go find an ability to progress. I want to be able to just go challenge every boss immediately, like in BOTW. These are just my thoughts, great if you disagree. Some healthy disagreement and some permutation is what will actually make a game and system almost everyone will enjoy.
I've not played breath of the wild, but weren't a bunch of the rune abilities hidden in dungeons? That's the kind of thing I'm suggesting. Also, love me some healthy disagreement and productive discussions :)
@@CaptainFidget you get them during the tutorial, the only one you get later is the camera which you don’t need and doesn’t effect traversal.
Fair enough. So once you get your glider you're good to go. How long does the tutorial usually take to go through? I remember Skyrim being my first open world game and being disappointed about how long I was stuck going down a straight path during the tutorial
@@CaptainFidget I haven’t played through it in awhile, I think it’s about 40mins, but almost all of that is gameplay, one long cutscene, but very little dialogue.
I like your solution but I'd also like to have a TM for the HMs if for whatever reason I do want to teach them to my team
That's fair. I think Gen 8 made them all TMs so maybe that will continue going forward
My opinion? Doesn’t need to be a legendary. What we need is key items that help us with these roadblocks. That way it won’t take up move slots on the team.
So you prefer the rotom bike approach?
To be honest the solution is a smart idea like if you need to break a rock get a heracross teach it the technique and then heracross charges down to break it thats a smart idea I would love to see it in gen 10 or black and white remakes whenever it happens 🤔🤩🤩
Absolutely not. I don't wanna see HM's ever again
The system we have now is perfectly fine and actually makes the games playable
Do you still feel the same way after having played the game for month?
No❤
Now that the game is out i think they are great overall but they move too fast or the map is too small for them... also Id lovo to ride my arcanine instead of koraidon
I feel like we're skipping some steps here. You made a great point as to why HMs arent better right off the bat - theyre bad moves. Ride pokemon in alola and legends I think were perfect because functionally they were the same. The problem with the rides in Paldea is that you seemingly get them all at once, but, I'd be cautious assuming that. I think they might become better rides as you grow. I do think that having one pokemon for every ride is bit boring though.
It's hard to say. Obviously, until the games come out nothing is for certain and all we have to go off is the preview gameplay where people had all the ride forms. If there is a way to unlock the forms on your journey then it's basically what I've asked for minus them being your pokemon. Thought this was a fun discussion to have though as we edge closer to release
@@CaptainFidget From what I've heard in the previews, while they had all abilities for their time slot, it's something we'd unlock through progression so I don't think the point about the reward being lost for those who re-travel is true. Just looking at the map of Paldea, it's incredibly detailed and I can only imagine how long it'll take to discover all the secrets. I also don't like the original approach of just finding them in the wild because it makes them feel unspecial. I played Hoenn games from release and it wasn't until a few years back that I realized I never found cut. Entire sections of the game were just... gone and looking back, I felt like the game said it wasn't important. Not to mention, to have all HM's on hand would typically take up two (if not more) slots of my team.
I personally find the best implementation for HMs to be in the Alola games, and for the problems I have with that generation, I feel ride Pokemon were the perfect balance between the two (up to this point in the series). I didn't mind them not being my Pokemon in that region because of the hospitality of the region, it felt like an integral part of world-building.
After playing Legends for... more time than I admittedly should, I have my own personal way which I would implement them. We have ride Pokemon with areas set up to unlock them. Let's go with the newest releases for this, where a teacher in the school could have quests for this, so if you want to focus on them and unlock them sooner, you can. These quests would have you search for, catch, raise & evolve a specific species for the role. So in legends, we'd need to catch a Stantler and evolve it. Not only making the ride Pokemon more meaningful for us but doesn't go to far back to the old days.
I would argue the worst part of having them linked up to a legendary is taking away the specialness of our box legendary. I feel these two are two of the most interesting box legends since gen 6 imho but just getting them early on and riding them rubs me up the wrong way... maybe I'm wrong and will regret saying this but that is my biggest concern with the new games heading into their release.
Alright, I'll try to listen to the end before commenting here.
I am ok with having HMs to stop me in the game and force me to go out and talk with the NPCs. The thing I am not ok with is having to have "HM slaves", and yes, slaveS because at this point you have more than 4 mandatory moves to have to go through a cave (looking at you gen 3 victory road).
Which is why I would be ok with the idea of HMs that do not take a slot, or kind of like in BDSP (which by the way I am surprised you did not talk about in this video). You need the HM, you need a pokemon that could technically "learn" it, but you don't have to sacrifice your precious move slots.
Weren't the BDSP HMs all replaced by loan pokemon that you called in? So they act similar to ride pokemon which I already shared my views on
Unlike ride pokemons, you still have the part where you need to find the HM, they were not handed to you in gen 4 (I believe they kept the same locations in the remake). You also need the corresponding gym badge.
Also borrowing wild pokemon's help is close to me to what pokemon rangers do, which is why I don't view it as negatively as you do probably 😅
The part that I was emphasizing the most is I just don't want my HMs to take a slot. 😂
I’m sure they’ll block progression is one way and either way it’s an open world game so terrible argument
No one wants HMS ask a honest Pokemon fan or Pokemon game enjoyer what would you like dark around the map wherever you like on a legendary or have these lame moves that don't do much in battle and are stuck to your Pokemon unless you find a move the move deleter who would want that
I miss HMs. Even in the older games, I think HMs should have been used more often. The main one I am talking about is Johto allowing you to battle Chuck, Jasmine, or Pryce in any order. A Whirlpool roadblock for Route 40, forcing Pryce to be the fifth Johto gym leader, would have improved the level curve and pacing of the Johto games slightly. I know that I can just edit the levels in my Crystal romhack to make it clear that Pryce is Gym #5, Chuck is Gym #6, and Jasmine is Gym #7 if there is no way for me to add the Route 40 Whirlpool roadblock but then people would not know about this change until they play the romhack if I ever decide to make it available for people to play.
awful take detected, awful take detected.
edit: now that i see the vid okay i understand, your mons helping you overcome the enviroment and stuf, its not bad, but like, I feel most of these moves are unnecesary, why do you need to JUST cut a tree, why not use a fire type to burn it, or something like that, I feel having them take up your move slots and tainting your team is bad, i think being able to use your pokemon with their very own skills and powers to overcome obstacles with you
Liked and subbed on the unionise comment alone.
No
no
Congratulations, you decided to use the opportunity of being the first to comment to (checks notes) react to the title...
whut
While i dont mind legendary mounts being HMs, i do agree should be like other monster tamer games such as raidou devil summoner, world of final fantasy, and monster sanctuary having them passive field skills instead.
After beat main story scarvio, boxart legendary becomes catchable to join your party. They just dont want you to blitz through whole game with a legendary from the start lol.
You must love metroidvanias.
No
no