Miraculously Fast Whiskey With Ultrasonic Ageing?
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
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Forced aging, can an ultrasonic cleaner and sous vide machine help make "old" whiskey at home in a matter of days?
I learnt a lot interviewing the ETOH crew in this podcast:
• ETOH's Whiskey Reactor...
It's time to see if I can put their theory into practice in my own shed!
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#still #distilling #ultrasonic
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This will not change the price for you at all, But the seller will buy me a cup of coffee if you purchase from one of the links. Choice eh?
I don't distill at home, and tbh I barely even drink or enjoy whiskey, but I love your channel, man. The science is so interesting, and your passion shines through every video, it's really infections. Thanks for the videos and taking me on a journey I never knew I would have enjoyed!
Glad Im not the only one
Same lol. I'm more of a beer guy but I find the science so interesting
I don't drink much either. I'm a home wine maker and we drink 1 or 2 bottles per week, but I agree with you fully that the science is amazing. Jesse is also an amazing host as well.
I wonder what, if anything, the sonication might do to the pre-loaded ultra-Oaked stuff (with the oak removed)
My man, try some McAllen 18 perhaps your barely even may change....
When I was visiting one distillery, a train came by on the tracks right by their barrel building. He said that was one of their "secrets" on aging their products. They said the vibration effected the finish aged products.
Ultrasound is ultra high frequency, I wonder what ultra low frequency would do??? As stated frequency effects what is extracted and transformed. Over time low frequency tend to be more destructive then high frequency. Could use a bass shaker/seat rumbler used in home theater/gaming setups.
(Edited to add more thoughts.)
Or you could use a low frequency piezoelectric transducer.
I think it was Aristotle that said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.". Like you say, this is a hobby, and to give it credibility, we have to explore differences in techniques, not pit them against each other. Love your work, as always, Jesse!
This is exactly what I've been going for. Compiling the steps to figure out a regular process. I'm now wondering if this might be a good process to use as a kick start, like your overload process, then just let it sit. Might lead to either a shorter wait, few months instead of a year, or a richer more complex finished product, or both. Great experiment, brother!
Scaring me (again), Bearded. That's where my brain went too: like a shortcut/fast forward through the first 1/4 or even 1/2 of "traditional" ageing.
I'm glad we're on the same pages here, Bearded
Good point on tool vs workman. Like judging a lathe based on the work that comes off it when one piece is by a hobbyist and one is by a renowned craftsman.
I find rapid gives you like you said a white paper to start from. How I prefer to use it as a kick start so the extraction part, then allow the transformation to happen over time while sitting on wood
I would love to see an experiment taking traditionally aged whiskeys, and fortifying them with these new techniques. Aging a spirit for a few months/years, and filling in any "holes" with ultrasonic aged whiskey. Seems to me that's the way the industry will start using this in commercial products
The pear aroma might be from isoamyl acetate and ethyl acetate forming from the acetic acid and compounds from the whisky and oak at elevated temperature.
My 2 cents:
1) Try an experiment keeping the sonication and the esterification separate
This would be to try and see if you could identify how much of the flavour profile comes from the esterification of said acid vs molecules that may have been digested off the wood by the acid (if any at all as they are all weak acids)
2) Layer the different acids at different concentrations and explore other acids, maybe start with esters that have been profiled whiskeys you like or acids in rum fermentations/sour mashes.
As every acid would result in a different ester therefore different flavour. Adding just 1 acid is like adding only vanilla and expecting a more complex flavour.
so one of the things I was experimenting with was adding way too much oak into a clear spirit (vodka) to make a fake vanilla extract like thing. It's not just over oaked, it's now an oak extract. I had some brandy that was a bit lacking and I added a bit of this oak extract to it and it instantly changed it to taste more like an aged product. I think there is something to be gained with this. Not for fine whiskey, but for crap you mix with coke and feed to "friends" (you know the ones with no taste.)
If you are just gonna give to people mostly just interested in the alcohol content why bother?
Might do this and pour it in a bushmills bottle so my collage friends stop drinking my good whiskey
I've been curious about this subject. Glad to see it being covered.
I actually tried this using everclear with an open top (I was afraid of it exploding) and lower temp a few months ago but found out I needed reflux (to help with the theoretical fisher esterification reaction which could allow more oxygen to interact as well without shaking it) although now I know it won't explode, it may be time to try again without a reflux. I was using a blend of honey and vinegar as honey has a wide variety of organic acids, I figured it may produce a wider flavor profile.
Loved this one. I do this process myself. One thing to note when you were talking about them focusing on specific molecules, that is done via selection of the output frequency of the ultrasonic transducer. There are only a couple units for retail sale that have that option (ignoring the math that goes into figuring out which molecule corresponds to which freq). I also don't usually use an acid addition in mine either. I may try that at some point. Similarly, I find these still need to sit after the bath. I usually let mine sit on wood for a little longer and additionally let them sit for a few more months (depending on batch size) alone before I call them done.
How interesting
I'm curious what you will get when you blend those 3 together
May I suggest you make a caramel simple syrup (heat sugar in a pan until golden brown then dissolve in equal weight of water) add some drops of this to your spirit. The degree of caramel darkness will change the flavour profile. Most commercial distillers do this. A very dark caramel will bring more 'nutty' notes. Different sugars will introduce further flavours such as palm sugar, demerara sugar, etc. Thanks for all the great videos.
Thanks for the awesome videos!
I have an experiment in the works at the moment, that is a bit more involved than my last experiment, but it involves yeasts.
I recently made 2, 5 gallon buckets of peach wine, one was Lalvin K1-1116, and the other was Lalvin EC-1118, and I noticed the EC had a very champagney flavor, and was ok, but the other was much fuller and more like a wine with a better peach flavor.
My latest experiment is on apple juice, I have 10 identical size & brand of apple juice bottles, and have pitched a different yeast in each one, and will soon taste test them each to find which yeast I prefer for apple wine. 5 of the yeasts are Lalvin, and the other 5 are Red Star.
With the peach, I am thinking of distilling the EC batch into a brandy, since it's flavor isn't as good as the K1 as far as a wine, at least for my taste preferences.
What I wonder is, are some yeasts better for wines, and others better for distilling when it comes to flavor profiles, and also, are some yeasts better for some fruits and/or grains than others.
Either way, I'm having a blast with experimenting, and watching all the videos from the fine folks here on YT.
I have an ultrasonic head and I dip it straight into the spirit and in less than 15 mins I'm done. I have whiskey white oak chips, 3 treatments: wine soaked and then dried. 160C medium toast, and the last 180C darkish roast. Then I do 3 jars with 1 of the 3 woods in each and then sonic each separately. Then taste each and blend to desired flavour. Remaining poured together and drink first, even that is still good, but the blend is amazing. Thanks Jesse great channel bud.
The possibilities for variation and experimentation are legion. Also very entertaining. Enjoy!
Hi! Instead of dosing the spirit with said carboxylic acid, you should soak/wash the wood with the solution! Allow it to dry slightly and then add the wood into your spirit.
Plus, most of the barrel age character comes from the breakdown of lignin and wood sugars, and though heat/ultrasound can help in this, you should add cycles of intense light!! UVA/Violet light is insanely useful for the breakdown of wood structural molecules that react and give flavor to a spirit!! Look up Lost Spirits Distillery as an example of a viable, delicious 6-day spirit.
So the best technique would be to heat your samples with acid-rinsed wood, place under intense light (long exposure sun or under full-spectrim grow lights), and place back into your heat bath to finish reacting.
I appreciate the point about it being a tool. People get so hung up on how you should do something. They lose sight of the fact that tools are meant to help improve your ability to do something. Adding more tools to a trade just gives you more options. This may give different new notes and finishes that may just add or enhance the finished product. The more tools the better in my opinion. Good on yah.
Great video... you need to find someone with a betatron..... when I was in college, my advisor who a bit of a drinker, read about doing this and decided to try using ours. She stuck the cheapest scotch in the betatron for an hour then ran a taste off against Chevis allowing the whole staff to comment... the Chevis lost handily... (& yes, this was 40 years ago so Chevis was considered the best).. Keep up the great work mate!!
It sounded like the acid quantity was a bit high on the tartaric and citric. Acetic acid will also be volatised by the heat/ultrasonics, so its affect on flavour will be reduced.
It would be interesting if you ran a pH meter over the spirit before and after.
18:55 - 19:20, so many people need to hear this!!!!
Okay okay. I love the "It's yours and tell the other guy to get......" part. :) That's the key to our hobby. Make your specialty whiskey your way for you and your pallet. Is it better than Laphroaig? No! Is it what you want and that's what matters? Yes. Spot on Brother!
I'm in it for flavors and experiences that I just can't get from a commercial bottle. If I want a good commercial spirit, I'm not going to make it, I'm going to buy it. If I want some bizarre concoction that no sane large scale distiller could or would commit to creating? That's a different story. I love finding these new tools to play with age and flavor. After this, I'm almost certainly going to add acids to at least some of my experiments to see what flavors they wake up and pull out.
@@olinseats4003 agree 100%. It's all about making what is good to you. I love picking apart Commercial and seeing what I can make close that matches my favorite part or flavors in their spirits. There is just so much open to us that the big names don't or can't do. Ours is a wide open slate with no boundaries or limits.
I know that according to the legal definition, whisk(e)y has to be aged for a minimum time in a charred barrel, blah dee blah dee blabbidy blah. But there was a time when the barrel aging wasn't necessary... or rather it was a pleasant unexpected discovery after some was shipped/stored long term. Towson's has a video filmed at George Washington's distillery at Mt Vernon where they discuss it.
All true, however we are hobby distillers and those rules and boundaries do not exist for us. Unless you are selling it on the legal market.... :)
Here after watching Hoocho try this out on his 2nd channel. Thanks Jesse for helping to spread the learning, can't wait to try this out.
I'd like to see you start the process with wood aged water before the ferment.
I would suggest breaking your experiment down into an extraction phase and then a transformation phase. Get your level of wood right first, then add the acid and test transformation. Could also do a with or without acid to see if it effects extraction. However, if the primary goal was to create esters, maybe stick with acid after extraction. Also maybe try some acids that line up with the esters you are trying to produce. Butyric acid comes to mind. A lot of the smells / tastes you mentioned in the acetic acid glass were acetate esters. Maybe you'll get some butyrate esters using Butyric acid?
Would like to see the results with a rum. So much of this deals with the reaction with wood, so a rum, without that, might have better results.
Jesse, I want to come to nz just to say hello, been a beer brewer for 40 years, got too fat , changed to rum and whiskey and now at 76 making your wonderful stuff, more power to you. Kind Regards cheers
We have what we just call "Malts" in the US, its malt powder, milk and a generally sweet flavorant.
The ultrasonic should be adding O2 to the solution. The surface of the liquid will resonate at the ultrasonic frequency breaking surface tension. In a fish tank it is not the air bubbles that add much O2, it is the bubbles disturbing the surface tension that increase O2 transfer.
Have you considered adding acid to the temperature age process to form esters?
All whiskey ages best to southern rock and bluegrass.
I have previously been a skeptic about rapid aging, but after this video and the recent podcast I am warming to the subject. Controlled oxygenation could be done with a carb stone, stainless tubing and an oxygen canister as is in common use in home brewing. Ultrasonic cleaners are readily available. Wood aging sticks, cubes, staves, etc. are easy to make or buy. Acid products also easy and widely used in brewing and wine making. Sou vide baths, check. How to assemble all this into a stainless reactor? Intriguing! Thanks, Jesse!
I recommend a mixture of all three acids, do a cold/warm extraction , then filter the spirit and do your ultrasonic step.
Awesome Knife hand @ 6:12
We had a total ban on booze sales in South Africa for most of 2020. Speeding up the process made sense. I have made a few batches of ultrasonic aged rums and brandys. It worked pretty well for me. I agree, not quite se same as tradition, but close enough.
I shall be conducting some experiments with forced aging soon. I'm going to start with a bottled in bond product instead of new made.I should have some results in early April.
Thanks jesse, loved the insight into what processes a barrel induces in the spirit. Cool to see the acid tests too
Cheers mate apreciate it
hello thank you for all these videos. something that he finds works well and an aquarium bubbler which quickly makes the alcohol "old" (like 2 days of bubbling and that changes completely) this technique and moreover used industrially to make vinegar ...
I used a Branson Untrasonic water-bath 225 for five 15 minute runs. The last two had charred oak. It worked well.
Thumbnail on this one is a work of art 👍
Fabulous. Your geekiness is welcome.
Going back to your thoughts on “cloning a spirit” where you create a bunch of varieties that are over the top flavor profiles, to be used as additives for blending into a base. This could be a tool to help create some of those over the top additives
I listened to the podcast while sitting up my girl yesterday. Thanks for telling me yet another way to play with this craft and adversely thanks for the next upgrade planned for the project.
Next question. Is it possible to divert some of the brewing material to a distilling loop, cool and reintroduce to yeast fermenting in a loop to keep alcohol from attaining a percentage detrimental to the yeast so that it might continue with additional water and food being added to a long lived and possibly evolving yeast like they do with sour dough and some other cultured mycelium's? A need to take the first distillation. through a second distilling to remove heads, heart and tails.. # Long live the Yeast# #Yeast Lives Matter#
Please do ozone filtration 🙏
Bearded covered it a little bit recently
If Bearded and Age Whiskey have both done it why have Jesse redo it?
I invented away on paper. And in theory Tlit should work! that requires no electricity, no sea aging. That is literally free with out the use of wind. Im trying to calculate on paper to decide what age the liqour will be after a 2 day run. I need to have a control which i am going to use jack daniels and do a color comparison to get the 7 year comparison
Fondimentals question. Why is it important to retain the gasses? Why not do an air exchange periodically?
Did you adjust the vinegar sample to have the same amount of acid as the, I'm assuming, pure citric and tartaric acid crystals? If not, wouldn't you have 1/20 as much acid in the vinegar one (based on 5% acetic acid in most vinegar)?
Interesting. I don't understand though why one would chuck the Ethyl Acetate formed during fermentation out with the heads but deliberately introducing it with this esterification? I think by adding the acids to the fermentation stage, the esterification may also happen as ethanol is being produced and it will come over in the distillation process anyway. My choice of acid catalyst would be a mineral acid such as Sulphuric maybe which would aid the wooding reactions. In my mind, a process purely from a chemistry point of view would be to extract the wood by normal exposure. Remove the wood. Add small amount of acid and hydrogen peroxide (for oxygen) and exposing it to UVC light. The UVC would excite molecular orbitals allowing complex molecules to react faster and in the presence of the oxygen from the peroxide, the tannic acids would break down to more mellow compounds. This is my thought experiment though.
I made a run recently using to much rye and it tasted way too spicy at first, I hated it. but after throwing a couple chunks of oak and a couple weeks its tasting so sweet and smokey now. I think my own liquor taste better honestly than what I've bought at the store, but I guess it's because I only buy cheap bourbon and vodka
Love it. However you had a fifth sitting right there on the left to add to your results test as a base control sample. That barrel has been there long enough to provide a good test sample. :)
i would experiment with different types of vinegars, standard white versus apple cider versus rice etc.
Watching this, I wondered, the process of oxidation, when I have needed to speed up oxidation for other purposes (such as speeding up rusting), I have used hydrogen peroxide. If you could find a food safe source of this and maybe drip add it at some point in the process, it would be interesting to see what the result is. I have tech grade stuff here, I don't think it would be a good idea to add that, but maybe those little bottle they sell at Unichem etc would work?
hey Jesse you need to look up Cleveland whiskey in Ohio they use pressures to accelerate aging to make a whiskey in 24 hours it's very interesting their concept they've been around since 2013 and have been thriving check them out
The best comparison would be to do bling testing with commercial traditionally made whiskey,other wise you dealing with bias
Dunno if someone have been suggesting it ... But try and vacuum the chamber, like ppl who make knives and stabilise the wood, so you insert alcohol in the wood.. And hope it get more flavors?
Try a sohxlet extractor on oven toasted white oak splints with a torch char, I got a very good vanilla flavor in about 2 hours. Very sweet dessert flavor, similar to kikori. Light and delicate!
You need to try blending them, and try blends of acids together in your reactor too, i.e. double the vinegar and citric acid, cut the tartaric acid in a quarter, and add all three to a batch and try it.
Looks like you need to do a little blending of these 4 samples.
I have a reoccurring question that won't leave me alone. Can a distillate be carbonized? When I asked myself why - the only reason would be in adding the effect in speeding the ageing process with the charred wood.
Mates would love to see (proper) tasting ie blind.
I've been using sous vide to add complexity to my essence "scotch " putting it out there under blind tasting.
Is really interesting.
19:06 - Hahah, I would extend this to basically everyone that doesn't sign my paychecks at this point.
It is a domed philosophy to think you can recreate a whiskey with different materials, equipment knowledge and technique. Better to create something you can call your own that you are proud of. You could just buy their stuff and then what would be the point.
I have home-brewed beer for the last thirty years not one of my beers has been as good as a good craft beer. Then again I would prefer my beer to many commercially made "ocker" beers.
Cheers Love your work
Mark
Hi Jesse.
Like you I respect the traditional methods, but I really love pushing the boundaries to explore the art of the possible.
Loved the video, and the ETOH podcast.
I think all home distillers like to try new things now and again
And congrats already at over 200k
experimentation and exploration is what its about
I Have an idea dude the spirit with wood in it in a sealed container then inside the ultrasonic machine then all of that in a vacuum chamber ?
Can you utilise this concept with the hot and cold treatments ? So basically using the heat option with this unit ? And then alternating the process ?
i love the videos ,but i feel liker someone has to have asked,what is behind the purple pallet wall?? i need a accent wall like this now
Tool storage haha. Make sure to make it Alexa controled for extra awesomeness points 👍
I would love to see a repeat of this experiment but with rum, and using lactic acid, butytic acid and propionic acid. (And then a blend ofc)
I wonder what a balsamic vinegar would do to the flavour profile
The ultrasonic aging experiment looks awesome.
I wonder if any individuals have made their own version of photodegradation aging similar to how lost spirits does with their spirits. I know their ethod and/or equipment are patented and in the past have only allowed one separate rum maker to use it. I figure someone might crack that code of which spectrum and intensity of light over how much time works.
Lost spirits distillary uses heat, uv light and oxygen to rapid age their product.
So cool - I love ETOH's approach!!!
Jessie, what about experimenting with blending the 4 varieties to get the flavor and finish? I blended my V1 and V2 Apple Pie shines together and got something magic.
Awesome video. Thank you. Good luck to the purist out there with their malting floors and alembic pot stills. I'm going to give this a go.
I don't have the setup, but I was wondering... Lactase is used as a catalyst for esterification in the industry. I'm not sure if it will get denatured by the alcohol, but even then, there is always immobilisation in calcium alginate. The same process as the spherification in modernist cuisine, just use a syringe with a tiny needle to create small droplets. The just use the beads instead of/alongside the acids in your process.
Weird, I know.
Been waiting for someone to go into detail about how this works so I can try and build my own system!
Question to you all, red path has 2 different Golden sugars, one is $20 for 25kg and the other is $48 for 20kg. What's difference, and what would be good for rum?
Great video! Watched the podcast and this after blind tasting the EtOH Arbejd malt spirit today at a local store. I’d been prejudiced against any sort of rapid aging on principle but I can’t deny it was pretty drinkable and these guys are onto something. Really liked your summing up and the tool vs process comments 👍Maybe that’s where the real opportunity is for these techniques, as part of new approaches. I wonder if rapid aged spirits will take over the lower priced commercial market one day?
Be interesting to visit these samples in a month and see how they transformed some more. Keep on experimenting, looks good
I think it would be interesting to see what flavors develop if it is done with different woods like apple or cherry tree wood
Do a hot and cold with ultrasonic refrigerator to 65c daily over a week
do you still have those jars around? Revisiting could be very informative!
Probably should edit the carbolic acid bit so people dont go adding phenol and dying mate.
Try getting a used whiskey barrel and putting new make in it to extract some of the absorbed flavor.
Another fantastic video, thank you for explaining everything step by step! I was wondering if possible could you do a video on the set up of your cooling for your stills and a brief overview of the way that you have found the best after the years of playing with them. Cheers bloke have a good one!
Hi, Jesse! Make experiment like this: Take oak wood 100 grams, add Acid, little bit alcohol, water, take aquarium pump and inject some air, close everything with lid and put this "oak" in the Ultrasound reactor to some days. Why? Because I think about "wood" treatment, not alcohol... If your oak start`s to smell like whiskey, than we can use that wood to make our whiskey quicker! It means - if we can make our wood smell like whiskey, than we can "accelerate" aging! 🥂
Your comment got me thinking! Use large amounts of wood into jar to extract super concentrated oak flavor. Now you can use cc syringe to get the desired results from a controlled concentrate. Reverse engineering.
Eventually this will make for better top shelf Whiskey. Being able to produce blending "agents" to produce a better end product is were I see this being used commercially (and at home)
So I've not really been treated well in this world and an expensive bottle of whisky to me is 12 year old Glenfidich , just above run of the mill stuff.
My first attempt was ok and yet to taste my second but people like different and people like the craft so if you can drink it then be proud
Check out the effect of high luminosity white light on oak aging spirits
Please finish the barrel vid, and try some badmo barrels
Have you tried blending them?
love the shirt!
Interesting to see what the accelerator would do combined with ageing with oak for a year or so compared with just ageing with oak for the same time.
Do you buy your toasted oak or do you toast yourself? If so a video explaing that would be awesome!
I always though hydrogen peroxide and either time or uv would be good to oxygenate alcohol
"Tell them to get f$#ked" hahaha spoken like a true NZ'er hahahaha love you man! Ace break down too.
most ultrasonic machines only have a 30 min timer, how did you get over this ? ps love your channel and george