Easier way to remove the covers, heat up the solder and slide a razor in between. The solder won't stick to the razor and when it cools, pull the razor out and the joint is seperated
Well, I was expecting a DC measurment reading for each bobbin, testing how "magnetic" the base plates are, like Jay Dee sais it's far more important than weight. Was expecting also the number of turns in each bobbin, and how was the wire winded in each pickup. You are just comparing the weight of parts in both pickups, and left out some of the most important details while comparing two similar pickups If you are building all American pickups you have to get rid of your Chinese soldering iron, chinese made Phone, Chinese screwdriver, Chinese wire cutter and Chinese scale, you'll be better off using all European tools!
While the differences are more noticeable. The real difference is the wax potting for microphonic. I had to pot a microphonic Chinese Telecaster single coil neck pickup. I used surfboard wax so that I wouldn't have to melt wax & dip anything in a saucepan. The surfboard wax, I was able to spread that on the inside of the neck lipstick style cover for the top & sides, and when I pressed the pickup & reassembled the pickup the microphonics were cured. With surfboard wax the sun will melt it f left out for a 1/2 hour in direct sunlight heat of the day, a hair dryer melts & flows the wax too. Heck leave it in a hot car and the wax softens even more, may even flow & have the same effect as wax potting by melting the wax in a saucepan. Ceramic magnets are stronger than Alnico V, you'd have to get Alnico 8's to start to have Ceramic strength. The stronger magnets are going to have a tighter low end, so it depends upon what genre of music you play. Metal, ceramic are actually the better choice, warmer tone go with a Alnico 2-V. DCR is just the relative number of windings of wire. All the guitars I have are ceramic single coils, P90 in Epiphone, whatever a Squier or Monoprice has in Strat or Tele. The surfboard wax and the Telecaster was as quiet as the P90, closely approximated each other for not being micophonic & tone really. The Epiphone P90's were 8.2k & 9.2k for neck & bridge DCR. The Chinese Tele was 7.2k & 6.8k neck & bridge. Enough difference, but not hat much. I agree Gibson Alnico > Chinese Ceramic, not appreciably better, remember tone is subjective and is in the listeners hearing & mental perception. Mu point is, that a set of Chinese pickups will last as long and indiscernible at the string & pickup point of the process. After that there's an instrument cord, pedals of a signal chain. Then there's the preamp section of a circuit, any effects loop & that eventually ends up at a speaker that is voiced differently. The pickups are only capturing & transmitting the string vibrations. Those are a set of 10's, 9's or whatever you're stringing the guitar with. As long as the pickup registers the vibrations& passes that signal on, the pickups may even be located at different points between the neck & bridge saddles. Where one also picks & strums, affects tone, same with the pots specifications & even the microfareds of any capacitors in that signal chain.
Thanks for this video, really interesting results. We're you able to tell what the base plates were made out of? How will you be able to tell how much wire is one each bobbin?
I made a fixture for breaking the solder joint on the cover, a piece of wood almost the thickness of the pickup With a rout that the pickup fits in. I can now securely use a chisel to break the solder joint, which is a much safer way to do it, not so much chance for overheating the inside of the pickup. Try it :-)
It's better to cut the soft solder on the cover removal than to use a solder wick and subject the pickup to too much heat. You can use the wick after it is apart.
+Kurt Cathcart I was cringing at what he was doing. Should use the fast easy method, a razor blade and a few taps. This guy knows not what hes is doing. Some people should never go near tools
Get a real soldering gun and use that rather than a soldering pencil. It is quick and you are done before anything gets hot. It's the same when soldering any ground spots to the back of a pot. Fast heat so you don't over heat everything.
Vacuum wax potting can draw it deeper into the coils, I've seen variation in import manufacturers (some are dipped and some show vacuum). Some are pure petroleum wax (looks like Gibson you have is too) and other boutique builders mix in beeswax to offset shrink after cooling plus give higher melt point protection (if someone leaves the guitar in a hot car). I think Gibson vacuum pots their pickups (saw it in a youtube video), PRS wax pots theirs at the US plant (I was there at one of their open houses). . I've been doing a similar survey on pickups that lead me to focus on high internal capacitance as the cause of "muddy" pickups. I've found some of the import pickups have much lower internal capacitance than the 'famous brands' for equivalent copper length/resistance. "Hand Wound" pickups will have lower internal capacitance than "Machine Wound" due to scatter winding and tension on the wire (tight coil vs bird's nest) and wire coating thickness. I find high capacitance is like having the guitar tone knob permanently cranked passed 1 or 2 on the higher capacitance coils. For high capacitance pickups (like super over wound hotties) you can add a capacitor in series so it cuts the total pickup capacitance and gives back the clarity -- but why not start with a low capacitance coil?
Here is a bit of info most people won't consider. Lower Z pups are the "vintage" sound. If you play real PAF pups through a Fender Bassman or Marshall amp you get magic tone. Super high Z pups are for metal and other stuff. Those folks think they want "vintage" but have no idea of what "vintage" sounds like. Anything over 10Khz is gonna be overkill unless you are looking for a Zak Wylde sound. A LP should be played with the volume on 5 - not dimed - for a vintage tone. Same with a Strat. Learn to use those volume and tone controls. People will buy a $9K LP RI only to put some hot aftermarket pups into it. If going aftermarket at least go PAF voiced. SD and others excel at it. The hottest pup I have is a Dimarzio X2N mounted in a Partscaster I put together in the early 80s. It was meant for heavy and hard stuff but that pup is surprisingly clean. Lots of gain but clean. Yeah, it's ceramic; I prefer Alnico. Tone quest definition - A guitarist who has played for years and thinks he needs better tone than what he has. He spends $$$$ on different amps and effects only to find himself chasing the elusive tone. The funny thing is he had the right tone to begin with. I have watched it for over 40 years. I went from a Marshall stack to 1x12 combos; I have a few. I like the tone better and can always plug into a 4x12 if need be. Good thing sound guys mic amps so I can avoid the big cabs. I have a little SWR Workingman's 12 for bass and a larger Hartke cab if needed. Those big ass SVT cabs and folded horns are hernia machines. Bass is usually DIed in larger venues.
The moment this guy started comparing weights of electronics, you knew this was going to be a dumb meathead review, going to any lengths to prove somehow Gibson is superior. What next? Do a hammer throw contest between a Gibson and a Chinese guitar to see which one wins.
This is probably a silly question, but why do covered pickups potted with wax and pickups with exposed bobbins not. Second, if I removed the covers permanently, must I remove the wax?
The exposed bobbins are probably potted and then wrapped (the copper). The wax between the bobbins and the pickup cover is probably used to reduce microphonic response of the metal cover.
Use a hotter soldering gun rather than a soldering pencil for a quick melt of the stuff rather than heating the cover to glowing. The correct tools are essential.
Thank you for sharing. I appreciate the time and effort you went to for the comparison. Even if Gibson used Asian made components, it is their standard and their testing of the items is what makes the difference. Yes, many Japanese guitars are made in other countries, but they set a standard . I would still buy a guitar made anywhere if a Japanese company owned the factory, because they are the ones who set a much higher standard, than say Gibson or Fender( as much as I love their design). That is why so many North Americans are out of work- the executives of the US-companies get paid for 'cheapness' , low cost = low quality; and why so many head to Japan and Korea to buy products- good quality, decent prices. Thank you for listening ; and posting your videos. Cheers, Greg
+gregsbest Why are you talking about Japan made stuff when the topic is about China made? These are two countries are polar opposite countries in every way. Japan makes the absolute best stuff on earth and they do not take american jobs at all. Where China makes nothing but crap and they have all our jobs. Korea stands in the middle as USA made stuff. Although USA made electronics are the best except when it comes to vacuum tube, China oddly enough at this time makes some of the best tubes.
PRICE DIFFERENCE CAN BE AS MUCH AS 100 DOALLRS RIDICULUS WHEN SOUND IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS BEEN PLAYING 40 YEARS I HEAR VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE GOT A CHINESE STRAT RAIL 11 BUCKS VS A SEYMOR 70 BUCKS SOUNDED IDENTICAL SHAMFUL IT A COIL IF IT HAS MAGNETIC PULL IT WILL ROCK I MOSTLY USE STUFF FROM EY GUITAR PARTS GOOD SELECTION AND VERY GOOD PRICING
fred cook why the capslock? I'm one of those snobs that claims he can hear a difference in pickups. In a blind test I (and 5 out of 6 guitarist) actually heard a really clear difference even in the way pickups are wound. This was a test between Gibson burstbucker 1&2 and handwound boutique PAF replica's from a Dutch builder in several 'identical' guitars. However, some gear is more sensitive/transparent than others and it's more audible with low to medium output pickups (everything is more audible with low to medium output pickups). I disagree on the fact that a pickup sounds good as long as it has magnetic pull, but I do acknowledge the fact that active electronics and/or high gain is less sensitive to details. I recommend people to try many pickups before actually investing in a set. I generally find Gibsons really underwhelming, even though the build quality is fine
i think what i am trying to get at here is, it is misleading to say something is lower quality compared to something else unless you tell the audience what the relative difference in price is. That said, I appreciate this video was about quality not price, I just think the Chinese stuff gets a hard time on UA-cam. They are not trying to compete tone-wise, they are just doing it quicker and cheaper and this offers those who can not afford expensive guitars a great way in to playing.
I'm all for a better image for asia built guitars. It's giving US gear a big run for their money, which has 2 major wins: US brands have to work harder to really show they're worth the extra bucks, and there's better low budget stuff. But the details...that's what really makes the difference in these guitars. Upgrading pickups is pretty straightforward and can be a really cost-effective way of improving tone though.
Being an Engineer, I find this comparison highly unscientific. Its like watching someone compare the very first motorola mobile phone that weight a ton, to current day Iphones, and declaring the motorola was way better because....it simply weighed a ton more than the iphone and was huge ass in size. You should be comparing resistance, wire gauge, inductance and capacitance. Last time i checked, "Made in America" is not a scientific standard.
Yeah, you're right, "Made in America" is not a scientific standard. But why do we see guitars with "Gibson" and "Fender" on them coming from across the ocean from a fraudulent source??
Love the video. Amp up and do the blind sound test A Lamborghini or Ferrari are better made and more refined than a Corvette or Mustang. But we all know which sounds more fun :)
If you are having no problems with your pups leave them alone. Potting is a myth unless you are playing balls to the wall loud in front of a Marshall stack every night.
I would trust any chinese or korean knockoff humbucker to sound better than the Gibson 500T/496R set, even while shorting out as many of them tend to do.
thanks for this video interesting data! Pickups do not know what brand name they are that is a people thing-apples to apples is where it is at- gibson fender and the gamete have been using asian sourced materials for years since the 70s the only true USA made guitars were pre 1970- if it sounds good it is good!
Lol like you scale is 100% American made. Chinese stuff is everywhere. The Chinese pickups are made like low end Epiphone pickups on there cheaper guitars.
if it sounds good, its good. if it sounds bad, its bad
Your 100% correct!
why do you state that the Gibson copper wire is a better quality one? they're probably made in the same Chinese factory...
the only significant difference between those pickups are the material in the magnet, and the quantity of windings in the bobbins.
Wire of the same gauge is made with all kinds of alloys. The chinese are known for using less copper and more fillers in the formula.
George Lackey that would dramatically affect resistance.
@@demilieu then everyone are morons same as you
Easier way to remove the covers, heat up the solder and slide a razor in between. The solder won't stick to the razor and when it cools, pull the razor out and the joint is seperated
Well, I was expecting a DC measurment reading for each bobbin, testing how "magnetic" the base plates are, like Jay Dee sais it's far more important than weight.
Was expecting also the number of turns in each bobbin, and how was the wire winded in each pickup.
You are just comparing the weight of parts in both pickups, and left out some of the most important details while comparing two similar pickups
If you are building all American pickups you have to get rid of your Chinese soldering iron, chinese made Phone, Chinese screwdriver, Chinese wire cutter and Chinese scale, you'll be better off using all European tools!
Chinese can make high quality of anything... But you Will pay that.
Very informative. Thanks for doing the work.
While the differences are more noticeable. The real difference is the wax potting for microphonic. I had to pot a microphonic Chinese Telecaster single coil neck pickup. I used surfboard wax so that I wouldn't have to melt wax & dip anything in a saucepan. The surfboard wax, I was able to spread that on the inside of the neck lipstick style cover for the top & sides, and when I pressed the pickup & reassembled the pickup the microphonics were cured. With surfboard wax the sun will melt it f left out for a 1/2 hour in direct sunlight heat of the day, a hair dryer melts & flows the wax too. Heck leave it in a hot car and the wax softens even more, may even flow & have the same effect as wax potting by melting the wax in a saucepan. Ceramic magnets are stronger than Alnico V, you'd have to get Alnico 8's to start to have Ceramic strength. The stronger magnets are going to have a tighter low end, so it depends upon what genre of music you play. Metal, ceramic are actually the better choice, warmer tone go with a Alnico 2-V. DCR is just the relative number of windings of wire. All the guitars I have are ceramic single coils, P90 in Epiphone, whatever a Squier or Monoprice has in Strat or Tele. The surfboard wax and the Telecaster was as quiet as the P90, closely approximated each other for not being micophonic & tone really. The Epiphone P90's were 8.2k & 9.2k for neck & bridge DCR. The Chinese Tele was 7.2k & 6.8k neck & bridge. Enough difference, but not hat much.
I agree Gibson Alnico > Chinese Ceramic, not appreciably better, remember tone is subjective and is in the listeners hearing & mental perception. Mu point is, that a set of Chinese pickups will last as long and indiscernible at the string & pickup point of the process. After that there's an instrument cord, pedals of a signal chain. Then there's the preamp section of a circuit, any effects loop & that eventually ends up at a speaker that is voiced differently. The pickups are only capturing & transmitting the string vibrations. Those are a set of 10's, 9's or whatever you're stringing the guitar with. As long as the pickup registers the vibrations& passes that signal on, the pickups may even be located at different points between the neck & bridge saddles. Where one also picks & strums, affects tone, same with the pots specifications & even the microfareds of any capacitors in that signal chain.
Thanks for this video, really interesting results. We're you able to tell what the base plates were made out of? How will you be able to tell how much wire is one each bobbin?
I made a fixture for breaking the solder joint on the cover, a piece of wood almost the thickness of the pickup With a rout that the pickup fits in. I can now securely use a chisel to break the solder joint, which is a much safer way to do it, not so much chance for overheating the inside of the pickup. Try it :-)
Coil resistance similar?
the gibson pickups needs to be rewound. Will measure once I am done rebuilding
It's better to cut the soft solder on the cover removal than to use a solder wick and subject the pickup to too much heat. You can use the wick after it is apart.
+Kurt Cathcart I was cringing at what he was doing. Should use the fast easy method, a razor blade and a few taps. This guy knows not what hes is doing. Some people should never go near tools
Get a real soldering gun and use that rather than a soldering pencil. It is quick and you are done before anything gets hot. It's the same when soldering any ground spots to the back of a pot. Fast heat so you don't over heat everything.
Sometimes a little knowledge is bad.The dude sounds medicated, droning on and on.
What's high end custom got to do with it? The dude is just a novice in training!
Yep, with a SEVERE bias to anything that says Gibson.
WTF? Stray wires and microphonics? I saw broken wires that wouldn't pass sound at all, microphonics that you can see, Magical!
Oh, and de-waxing before removing the cover, in an oven, helps things along as well, prevents breaks in the bobbins :-)
Test how "magnetic" the base plates are. Far more important than weight.
very true. I need to purchase the tester for this
Vacuum wax potting can draw it deeper into the coils, I've seen variation in import manufacturers (some are dipped and some show vacuum). Some are pure petroleum wax (looks like Gibson you have is too) and other boutique builders mix in beeswax to offset shrink after cooling plus give higher melt point protection (if someone leaves the guitar in a hot car). I think Gibson vacuum pots their pickups (saw it in a youtube video), PRS wax pots theirs at the US plant (I was there at one of their open houses).
.
I've been doing a similar survey on pickups that lead me to focus on high internal capacitance as the cause of "muddy" pickups. I've found some of the import pickups have much lower internal capacitance than the 'famous brands' for equivalent copper length/resistance. "Hand Wound" pickups will have lower internal capacitance than "Machine Wound" due to scatter winding and tension on the wire (tight coil vs bird's nest) and wire coating thickness. I find high capacitance is like having the guitar tone knob permanently cranked passed 1 or 2 on the higher capacitance coils. For high capacitance pickups (like super over wound hotties) you can add a capacitor in series so it cuts the total pickup capacitance and gives back the clarity -- but why not start with a low capacitance coil?
Here is a bit of info most people won't consider.
Lower Z pups are the "vintage" sound. If you play real PAF pups through a Fender Bassman or Marshall amp you get magic tone. Super high Z pups are for metal and other stuff. Those folks think they want "vintage" but have no idea of what "vintage" sounds like. Anything over 10Khz is gonna be overkill unless you are looking for a Zak Wylde sound.
A LP should be played with the volume on 5 - not dimed - for a vintage tone. Same with a Strat. Learn to use those volume and tone controls.
People will buy a $9K LP RI only to put some hot aftermarket pups into it. If going aftermarket at least go PAF voiced. SD and others excel at it.
The hottest pup I have is a Dimarzio X2N mounted in a Partscaster I put together in the early 80s. It was meant for heavy and hard stuff but that pup is surprisingly clean. Lots of gain but clean. Yeah, it's ceramic; I prefer Alnico.
Tone quest definition -
A guitarist who has played for years and thinks he needs better tone than what he has. He spends $$$$ on different amps and effects only to find himself chasing the elusive tone.
The funny thing is he had the right tone to begin with. I have watched it for over 40 years.
I went from a Marshall stack to 1x12 combos; I have a few. I like the tone better and can always plug into a 4x12 if need be. Good thing sound guys mic amps so I can avoid the big cabs.
I have a little SWR Workingman's 12 for bass and a larger Hartke cab if needed. Those big ass SVT cabs and folded horns are hernia machines. Bass is usually DIed in larger venues.
again whats the Verdict Good or Bad for Chibson
The moment this guy started comparing weights of electronics, you knew this was going to be a dumb meathead review, going to any lengths to prove somehow Gibson is superior. What next? Do a hammer throw contest between a Gibson and a Chinese guitar to see which one wins.
This is probably a silly question, but why do covered pickups potted with wax and pickups with exposed bobbins not. Second, if I removed the covers permanently, must I remove the wax?
The exposed bobbins are probably potted and then wrapped (the copper). The wax between the bobbins and the pickup cover is probably used to reduce microphonic response of the metal cover.
I recently took apart the uncovered humbucker from my Epiphone SG Junior. The coils were potted. I figure they just cleaned off the bobbins.
try a dremel with a cutting disc to cut the welds on the pickup cover..
Use a hotter soldering gun rather than a soldering pencil for a quick melt of the stuff rather than heating the cover to glowing.
The correct tools are essential.
Great video, it's cool to see the internal differences.
So what makes the Gibson pickup better? Wax and a chunk of alnico plus heavier copper doesn't do the Gibson pickup much justice difference wise.
Thank you for sharing.
I appreciate the time and effort you went to for the comparison.
Even if Gibson used Asian made components, it is their standard and their testing of the items is what makes the difference.
Yes, many Japanese guitars are made in other countries, but they set a standard . I would still buy a guitar made anywhere
if a Japanese company owned the factory, because they are the ones who set a much higher standard, than say Gibson or
Fender( as much as I love their design).
That is why so many North Americans are out of work- the executives of the US-companies get paid for 'cheapness' , low
cost = low quality; and why so many head to Japan and Korea to buy products- good quality, decent prices.
Thank you for listening ; and posting your videos.
Cheers, Greg
Thanks!
I would like to see prices on your finished guitars. Thank you- Greg
+gregsbest Why are you talking about Japan made stuff when the topic is about China made? These are two countries are polar opposite countries in every way. Japan makes the absolute best stuff on earth and they do not take american jobs at all. Where China makes nothing but crap and they have all our jobs. Korea stands in the middle as USA made stuff. Although USA made electronics are the best except when it comes to vacuum tube, China oddly enough at this time makes some of the best tubes.
+Nor'easter Playa Yes, NOR' - you are right! I agree.
And I didn't know China are making good tubes. Thanks for that.
What does "potted" mean?
TheWordprophet pickups going into liquid wax and wax become harder and make pickup didnt pick sound except from the string
Ah...that makes sense...thank you.
Great info as always! Thanks D.
Excellent demo.
Some people should never go near tools....
The pros do NOT heat up the solder to remove the covers, you cut it with a razor.
what is the price difference? You left that out of your comparison.
PRICE DIFFERENCE CAN BE AS MUCH AS 100 DOALLRS RIDICULUS WHEN SOUND IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS BEEN PLAYING 40 YEARS I HEAR VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE GOT A CHINESE STRAT RAIL 11 BUCKS VS A SEYMOR 70 BUCKS SOUNDED IDENTICAL SHAMFUL IT A COIL IF IT HAS MAGNETIC PULL IT WILL ROCK I MOSTLY USE STUFF FROM EY GUITAR PARTS GOOD SELECTION AND VERY GOOD PRICING
the gibson was dead so I paid 24 for it. I got the cheapies for 17 total.
fred cook why the capslock? I'm one of those snobs that claims he can hear a difference in pickups. In a blind test I (and 5 out of 6 guitarist) actually heard a really clear difference even in the way pickups are wound. This was a test between Gibson burstbucker 1&2 and handwound boutique PAF replica's from a Dutch builder in several 'identical' guitars. However, some gear is more sensitive/transparent than others and it's more audible with low to medium output pickups (everything is more audible with low to medium output pickups).
I disagree on the fact that a pickup sounds good as long as it has magnetic pull, but I do acknowledge the fact that active electronics and/or high gain is less sensitive to details.
I recommend people to try many pickups before actually investing in a set. I generally find Gibsons really underwhelming, even though the build quality is fine
i think what i am trying to get at here is, it is misleading to say something is lower quality compared to something else unless you tell the audience what the relative difference in price is.
That said, I appreciate this video was about quality not price, I just think the Chinese stuff gets a hard time on UA-cam. They are not trying to compete tone-wise, they are just doing it quicker and cheaper and this offers those who can not afford expensive guitars a great way in to playing.
I'm all for a better image for asia built guitars. It's giving US gear a big run for their money, which has 2 major wins: US brands have to work harder to really show they're worth the extra bucks, and there's better low budget stuff.
But the details...that's what really makes the difference in these guitars. Upgrading pickups is pretty straightforward and can be a really cost-effective way of improving tone though.
Being an Engineer, I find this comparison highly unscientific. Its like watching someone compare the very first motorola mobile phone that weight a ton, to current day Iphones, and declaring the motorola was way better because....it simply weighed a ton more than the iphone and was huge ass in size. You should be comparing resistance, wire gauge, inductance and capacitance. Last time i checked, "Made in America" is not a scientific standard.
Yeah, you're right, "Made in America" is not a scientific standard. But why do we see guitars with "Gibson" and "Fender" on them coming from across the ocean from a fraudulent source??
How it sounds!! ?? ...this is the question!.....who cares how much weight it is :(.....:)
Love the video. Amp up and do the blind sound test A Lamborghini or Ferrari are better made and more refined than a Corvette or Mustang. But we all know which sounds more fun :)
Corksniffer
Thanks for this. Super interesting. Inspired me to finish wax potting my pickups:-)
If you are having no problems with your pups leave them alone. Potting is a myth unless you are playing balls to the wall loud in front of a Marshall stack every night.
I would trust any chinese or korean knockoff humbucker to sound better than the Gibson 500T/496R set, even while shorting out as many of them tend to do.
thanks for this video interesting data! Pickups do not know what brand name they are that is a people thing-apples to apples is where it is at- gibson fender and the gamete have been using asian sourced materials for years since the 70s the only true USA made guitars were pre 1970- if it sounds good it is good!
Razor blade / Solder sucker
"Very good Gibson tape & very bad Cninese tape" .... ))))) It's THE END
Lol like you scale is 100% American made. Chinese stuff is everywhere. The Chinese pickups are made like low end Epiphone pickups on there cheaper guitars.