I remember reading about the long neck on the 30-30 coming from the manufacturers knowing it was going to be reloaded with black powder and most likely cast bullets, as being the first commercial smokeless cartridge people couldnt really get smokless powder and didnt have any data to load with. So they made the neck long so it would hold all the grease grooves in the neck and not contaminate powder
A smokeless design made to fulfill the needs of those who were using the 32-40 WCF. As you've surmised the owners who were still hand loading their .32 caliber rifles could continue to hand load those same components while having a rifle capable of handling modern smokeless powders.
An interesting test might be reloading the 30-30 with black powder along with a 32 Winchester Spl (which was designed to be loaded with black) and accuracy tests done at different ranges. I've always wondered about the dif.
The prevailing knowledge is that with a micro-groove barrel you size your lead bullets 1/1000th larger than you normally would. 308 jacketed, 309 cast (standard rifling) 310 cast for micro-groove.
From what I've read, Marlin employed micro-grooving for a cost saving advantage in manufacturing, not for any accuracy reasons. More grooves, less depth. This is why the lands/grooves aren't the same function in terms of bullet sizing as conventional rifling. Personally, as I like to be versatile in my thinking, I don't own a Marlin lever for this reason as I don't want to deal with the increased difficulty of cast lead bullets in that sort of rifling.
@@exothermal.sprocket My Marlin has 6 groove conventional rifling, what they incorrectly call 'Ballard'. The old girl shoots jacketed and cast lead bullets very well. Some microgroove barrels just won't shoot cast bullets, it's an accepted fact among Marlin owners. But Marlin rifles and carbines were sold both ways when it comes to rifling.
@@gortbot7748 Micro will shoot cast, but I'd highly recommend the owner slug the barrel to see what it runs exactly, and size the cast bullets accordingly. They will have to be a lesser diameter within caliber. Just too much messing around. I also prefer standard rifling. Ruger ditched the micro grooving with the new Marlins coming out.
DAMMIT! 😉Now you've gone and wrecked my preconceptions!!!! I always believed that 30-30 was originally a black powder cartridge!! THANK YOU for correcting my incorrect belief!
Interesting video it really shows why the 30.WCF was a show stopper in its day, a lot of difference in trajectory (and energy) between a BP and smokeless cartridge of similar size.
30 30 Winchester has been scarce as hell the last 4 or 5 years. Used to be the most common deer rifle. My Marlin is the 333 micro groove in 270 Cooper and soft point. I miss it
I whole heartedly agree with you on BP. The 30-30 would seem to be in the BP category because of the ”30-30” as you mentioned but it’s not. Yet it performed well enough for your test runs. I make my own BP and I run it in many modern day cases. For shotguns, in my opinion, you get the same performance as nitro powders for speed. For the 30-30, its like any other case originally designed for BP, you have to work with it to get the most out of it. In your case, you spread was super fantastic right out of the gate. I am confident that if you worked more on your lubes and bullet weight and design, you will probably get fantastic results in time. I currently load 37 deferent cases (chambering). I can get fair results with BP in semi-auto cases but I am compressing a little more. 9mm in the Glock shoots in a single shot configuration. It will not cycle fully to pick up the next round. Anyway, I have enjoyed many of your vids and look forward to more. Don’t worry about the trolls, they sit and critique but never do anything but play video games and watch UA-cam vids. Keep up the great vids.
Wow I would be interested in seeing some of these modern re-worked chamberings you loaded up sounds very informative and potentially very useful since you can make BP pretty easily! I feel like I could dive down this rabbit hole Head first!
With your glock, cut the recoil spring for less tension, shave metal off the slide to make it lighter and compress your powder fully and have it in as small granules as possible so it burns faster. Its quite easy to get BP to work in a 9mm if you do some or all those things. Lastly remember to use the heaviest lead head you can. More pressure buildup more likely to cycle in a blowback
The .32 win was developed to be loaded with black powder or Smokeless Powder. 1700 fps with a 160gr cast bullet. The .30-30 has been a PB cartridge in my rifles since granddad had it. I was a kid I learned how to compress ffff BP into Cake BP. We would compress ffff at 39gr of powder by putting a Bamboo skewer down the center into the primer hole and pouring in a third of the powder in at a time and crushing it down with a of drops of water to make a cake of hard powder that after being put in with a desiccant to dry the powder than putting in the sun for a couple of days than polling the skewer and trickling another 3 or 4 grains of powder down the hole loosely. Too it off with a 150hr soft lead 11-12 Bn round nose gas checked bullet and you get a nice crack and not a bang. Lead in a Savage 99 or .32 Win Spl will do the job. You can get within 500 fps of Smokeless. At 100 yards I do not think deer care. You just have to make sure you dry the FFFF cake completely. You might even have to put it under a incandescent light bulb.
Buddy; you've just become the 30-30 doctor , thank you 4 such formidable research 🎉 🙌 America loves you! Canada loves you ! I'm converting a 32-40 winch into a 30-30 . Thank you again 👍
Over sized lead bullets helps in a micro groove. In 45/70 I cast them at 0.460/0.461 and they worked ok. Lead fouling in a micro groove is really annoying to get out too.
I enjoy testing black powder in modern cartridges. It's fun. I've loaded black powder in .38 special, .44 magnum, 8mm Mauser, .30-06, .375 H&H, .30-30 win, and even .22 LR. With the .30-30, I used the same 165 grain cast flat points that you are using, with 39.0 grains of Goex FFg. Velocity averaged 1,359 fps. I was shooting these from a 26 inch barreled Winchester Model 1894 manufactured in 1896. I was shooting at 50 yards, from the bench, with a sandbag rest and, you guessed it, I couldn't hit anything. Those bullets flew all over the place. LOL. I'm guessing the rifling is not holding them.
Loading the 30-30Win with black powder and lead bullets is bringing the 30-39s performance down to standard .357 magnum level. I guess its good to know what works in an age we live in where reloading components are difficult to obtain. I think the accuracy problems he is having is feom tye Marlin micro groove rifling.
The Marlin micro groove rifling has always had a problem with cast lead bullets because of the shallow groove stripping off the bullet . I have seen this on my .444 Marlin , if you use a HARD cast bullet and oversize the bullet by one or 1 and a half thousandths accuracy improves.
@@DenverLoveless Simple as that, unfortunately with Boxer primers there's an extra step or rather two, remove anvil and then replace it. Another benefit of Berdan primers is that a punch and die press can be made to stamp new caps to replace the ones that have ben reused too many times.
If I had a single shot break action in 30-30 I would work a load up with Black Powder for crazy worst case scenarios and just for the fun of using 30-30 to make thunder and smoke
video didn't suck! I loaded Black Powder in my 94 Winchester back in the Seventies,(it's what I had, 2F in a red and white can, a CVA Kentucky kit gun, 94 Winchester, and an EMF .36 Navy) the local Otasco store owner said 2F would work. Like you I used sierra 150 grain jacketed flat points, don't remember the powder charge, but they were minute of paint can at 50 steps, loaded out of a Lee loader.
The 32 winchester special was designed to be reloaded with black powder. The twist in the barrel was slower. Other than bullet diameter the cases are al.ost identical. The 30-30 with it's faster twist and cast bullets builds black powder fouling and deforms the cast bullet. A jacketed bullet pushes the fouling out without deforming the bullet.
rate of twist has little to do with propellant, has everything to do with stabilizing the bullet. .32 is larger diameter than .308... so it doesn't require as fast of twist to stabilize the same weight. Once you move into breechloading, rifling depth doesn't really matter all that much, since each bullet scrapes most of the fouling from the previous shot out as it goes down the barrel (that fouling, especially if it has grease mixed in it (the real reason you should lube bullets with BP), is not harder than lead). Where you run into issues with fouling is at the case mouth, and it can cause chambering issues sometimes after extended firing sessions. Winchester had .32 barrels lying around from .32-40, and people had been loading .32 rifles for a while (more support for it); plus, you do gain a smidge of performance going up from .308 to .321, a result of less frictional losses in the bore. The .30wcf case is easily necked up to use .32 bullets, so why not?
Yes the 32 uses a larger bullet there for a bullet of the same weight is shorter. This requires a slower twist to stabilize. The slower twist makes it easier to push black powder fowling out. This was the reason for the development of the 32 special as stated by Winchester.
This video is interesting on a number of levels. Thanks. From the books I have read the '94 was originally chambered in 38-55 and 32-40 because Winchester was having trouble producing the nickel steel necessary for smokeless ammo. When the 30-30 came out it was loaded with 30gr of smokeless and they used the old naming convention. According to Cartridges of the World 32 Special was always a smokeless round. I can't confirm or deny that. I had also heard for years it was a black powder round. It was a period of rapid change in the world of shooting. My 30-30 is a new repro rolling block with a Walther match barrel. shoots cast or jacketed bullets equally.
I don't think micro grove and lead bullets mix well in higher power rifles other than a .22. They tend to scoot instead of spin and are prone to keyholing. Love the videos I did the black power stuff years ago.
I've done black powder in all my rifles to see what works yes even a ak47 cycled just fine and even ar10 in black powder really interesting. Will work modern smokeless or triple 7 works great 👍
I love the 30-30. The 38-55 is better suited for BP/Pyrodex load. The 30 WCF was the first truly modern iteration for general use. Even President Teddy Roosevelt loved it for its "flat shooting " Excellent video. Beautiful country scenes too.
I have a Winchester Model 94 which was my grandma's porch gun that she'd shoot deer out front sitting in her rocking chair at night. It's a circa 1926 and family tradition has it that they reloaded it with Black powder and that it's the reason that Winchester came out with the 32 Special. The shoulder on the .30 WCF case wasn't really that great for BP consistency of ignition and to get full completely, so the .32 in the same case reduces the shoulder a bit. Never heard of them having any issues, BUT that gun won't shoot a lead bullet either. I've tried different hardness of leads and finally bought some of the Hornady FTX for .32 when they came out and it loves em. I get like 12" 25 yard groups with leads of any configuration, but the FTX shoot sub .75" at that range and at 100 yards, I'm pretty consistently in the 4" group size with the horrible iron sights. lol I'm thinking that the old addage that some reloaders have told me is that if you want to shoot leads, you have to shoot ONLY leads and no copper jackets. The fouling with the copper creates little burrs and will keep the leads from gripping the rifling quite right. Perhaps a re-try with using a good copper fouling cleaner to remove any copper in your barrel, then re-try the leads. ;)
Those H&R break-overs have a longer throat, deep Rifling, and a 1 in 10 twist. My 22" barrel loves BP and a LEE GC 309-200 They drop at .310-.311 Powder coated (now .314) + lube then sized back to .311 I get 1 moa @ 100 yds all day.
Dear sir I have tried a lot of lead bullets in 30 30 they never work well in marlin micro groove because they skip the rifling . They actually work well in Winchester or any gun with standard rifling if you keep them at or below 1400 fps unless you use gas checks which allows you higher velocity.Hope this info helps explain . Great video thanks
Someone mentioned in the comments that in the early .303 was black powder While it was true it’s not loaded traditionally. it was a compressed pellet of BP that was loaded into a case that was not necked down after the BP was loaded the cartridge would be neck and a bullet seated. The cordite .303 was loaded the same way. I think a lot of early “smokeless” cartridges would have been reloaded with BP their was smokeless powders available but there was a distrust of them and probably rightfully so as the variations batch to batch were a lot more then they are today. Bullseye was introduced in 1898 by Laflin & Rand and was originally made from screenings of larger powder flakes from other powders. There were also several “semi smokeless” powders available that we’re basically volume for volume black powder substitutes(kinda like pyrodex).
Yep 30-30 debuted as 30WCF in 1895 available only in the Winchester 94 rifle that year and was designed as a smokeless cartridge. The Marlin 336 is a magnificent rifle design and very accurate once you find a bullet, weight and load it likes it’ll shoot 1 hole groups all day long at 100 yards. The microgroove barrel can be made to shoot cast well but it’s not as ideal as traditional cut rifling. My Winchester 94 works exceptionally well for cast and I switch between cast and jacketed in it with no issues and no cleaning (due to the ridiculously complicated field strip procedure and the fact the scope has to come off to field strip the rifle.). But it shoots very well and even likes the Federal power shock 170gn loads, it also likes Hornady 170gn Jacketed soft point bullets with IMR4895. I haven’t been able to get it to shoot worth shit with that LeveRevolution powder yet. I miss fat stocks of IMR4895
@@Everythingblackpowder I’ve had great success with it in 308 and 30-30. A good friend turned me into it and I never thought there would be such a long time without seeing it anywhere so never decided to stockpile it.
@@Everythingblackpowder Sure, with 170gn Hornady interlock I was using 29.5gn of IMR4895 and my rifle, a Winchester 94, was keeping shots touching at 100 Yards. Not the hottest but accuracy was excellent and I dropped deer with it
Excellent vid. Thanks for your work. I love my 3030 aand load smokeless only. Good old cartridge and rifle. Deer and pig get in the freezer kind of gun.
My gunsmith buddy ended up with an old marlin(pre 336) he found in a barn that was stamped 38WCF, he got lucky that the bore was good cause the rest was fairly rough, he cleaned it up, fixed a few parts and now its one of his truck/atv guns
@@chapiit08 well, LOL. I'd need most of the evening to describe what I do, but for now I'm saying if your grove depth isn't at least .004 to .006 in . you might not get the paper to cut its self from the bullet ..Marlin actually had their own style of paper patching back in the day but the barrels were made for it. In fact I patch my bullets' Marlin style' when I put them together.
I did the same thing you did in the 70’s with a.44 mag marlin carbine and it had microgroove rifling and it would shoot copper but not lead also. I dug out a pile of hard cast lead alloy bullets and looked at them under magnification and they were stripping on the shallow microgroove rifling because they showed double rifling marks where they skidded and caught the rifling again. Microgroove is designed for use with metal jackets, copper,brass, cupronickel, steel, or other metal outer sleeve or “jacket,” Cut rifled barrels will shoot lead. I shot practical pistol in the old days and had a barrel for my 1911 that had.005 rifling instead of the.003 rifling the Colt National Match came with that also wouldn’t shoot lead. My Ruger Super Blackhawk would shoot better 100 yard groups than the Marlin because of the rifling and the better sights. In the.44 magnum I was using fffg Dupont.
I hear it’s hit or miss, no pun intended. Some folks say their microgroove. Marlin works fine with lead bullets and others don’t. Apparently mine doesn’t.
Black powder residue is likely the reason that .30-30 isn’t shooting cast. Another thing to consider is the bullet size. If you’re shooting .308” diameter, forget accuracy with cast. They have to be at least .309” and maybe .310” in some rifles. Micro-groove makes no difference with the right cast bullet. Plenty of Marlin .22’s with micro-groove shoot soft swaged lead all day long. Powder coat is all I do anymore and my micro-groove .444 shoots powder coat as fast as jacketted.
I used to hunt Pheasant and Rough-Tail Grouse with my Father-In-Law most of the fall and winter season. At a point, I started loading my own shotgun and rifle ammunition. One day I got the bright idea to prank my Father-In-Law by loading a shotgun shell with black powder. I had to consult a local Flintlock Builder in order to insure the right powder load. Fast forward to our next hunting trip and I slipped the "loaded" shell into the 3rd loop in his shell belt (that's how he loaded his shotgun) so it would be the 1st shell in the breach. We had walked to a large clearing and sure enough, a grouse busted straight out from him. He shouldered the shotgun and clicked of the round. Brothers & Sisters ... the entire clearing was filled with blue / gray smoke at least 8 feet high. Knowing he would know it was me, but not knowing how he would react ... he broke up laughing. When it was Miller Time, I cleaned both of out shotguns and made certain there was no residue left in his Ithaca Pump.
I have found over the years that some guns just hate cast, or love it. Same manufacturer and same caliber. When I worked in a custom barrel shop, the old owner said he could never figure out as to why that was the case.
I have a Marlin 336 with a micro-grove barrel, and I found a load of 15.0 grains of A 5744 and a 150 Grain lead flat nose gas checked bullet. My velocities average 1300 fps. It's my go-to for Cowboy Action long range load.
It looks like the lead loads were key holeing. I had the same results with Black Powder in a a .303 British .On paper the lead bullets were keyholing ,but the jacketed bullets shot fine.
Went through the same thing with smokless and lead with same gun. Turns out you need atleast .311 lead bullets and possibly larger. Freind has older marlin and it needs .312. I think it has to do with shallow microgrove not grabbing the lead well.
I've never had luck shooting lead through micro-grooved barrels. If memory serves an old timer told me no lead in micro-grooved back in the 90s. Similar scenario with the old guy sitting inside his truck snickering behind me. Couldn't buy a good hit. He finally told me.
I don’t know why some folks have troubles so to speak with the great old Marlin rifles with micro groove barrels. My old Marlin 336 pre safely micro grooved .35 Remington is very accurate with jacketed and cast bullets in the 200 grain varieties. I run my cast bullets at full velocity too. It shoots great with them. The old Marlins were the finest Marlins of all. Great video on black powder .30-30 loads. I sort of expected slightly more velocity but that’s the way it is sometimes.
If I recall correctly, Marlin made their M1895 in .45/70 with conventional rifling, because they knew people were going to be shooting unjacketed lead bullets in those rifles, and the micro-groove rifling would not work well for that application.
Thanks. I always wanted to try BP in my 30-30. You did it so now I dont have to. Going to try Reloader 7 as you found it to be accurate. I own a 336 Marlin made in 1950. Love it. Mine has a straight stock instead of pistol grip style.
Just seeing this video for first time, now I'm going have to try this for myself. I have a 1894 rifle with a 26" barrel made in 1917, Cresent butt and full length magazine tube. It's also the most accurate lever gun I've ever owned, original marbles tang peep. I'll probably use gas check bullet though. The original 30 wcf bullet was a copper cupped 160 gr lead bullet.
There was probably too much pressure at ignition for the lead bullets. Check out the Lee manual referencing lead bullets and pressure causing the pressure to blow by the lead bullet which would explain why the jacketed bullets did so much better. I can get good accuracy with aci 2206h 27 grain which is a slower powder and a 110 grain lead bullet.
Funny , I loaded black powder in my post 64 model 94 back in the 80s. I don't really remember the powder weight but it's written in one of my old manuals. I do know that an oldtimer told me black powder should be slightly compressed so , I did. Consistency was very good with paper patched lead round nose 140 gr. If I remember correctly. It did hit about an 1 1/2 " lower than my smokeless loads at 100 yards but that's excusable. Accuracy Sound And the smell of black powder were well worth while but cleanup was extensive. Luckily the 94 brakes down a little easier than the 336 design.
I believe the Microgroove rifling is the problem with using cast lead bullets. I've read about, as well as heard other reloaders comment on Microgroove rifling not performing very well with non jacketed bullets. My experience over the years pretty much coincides with those results, although I was always using smokeless propellants. I have two Marlin lever guns, in .30-30, and .35 Remington. Both with microgroove rifling, and neither would shoot cast bullets with any accuracy or consistancy. Even using gas checks.
I can definitely hear a difference between the lead and the jacketed Bullets. More resistance from the jacketed bullets equals more pressure which equals higher velocity and louder report. Interesting.
Thank you for doing this. I'll be searching for any other cartridges you've done. I wasn't one of the one who requested but it's something I've been curious about. In a real long term SHTF smokeless ammo will become nearly extinct in a year or two. Depends on the caliber. While there are tons of 5.56. 7.62x39, etc rounds out there, but I feel those calibers will be the first ones that people run out of. Black powder in semi-auto is obviously impractical. The only one I'd even consider is an AK, SKS or something like that. Even those would get fouled up pretty quick if you didn't stop and clean it after 50 or so rounds. At least that's my guess at where one would foul up enough to start jamming. I also suspect you wouldn't get enough velocity to work the action in cases that small. 7.62x54 might be possible to use BP in. As I suspected the 30-30 is reduced to almost 357 smokeless velocity. Not that it would be worthless, just not one of the better cartridges to load with BP when smokeless runs out. Obviously cartridges like 45-70 which started as BP are going to likely perform quite well with BP. I suspect 30.06, 7.62x54 and similar larger capacity cases will as well. Not having seen any hard data, I bet full case of 30.06 behind a 150 gn jacketed bullet would produce 1800 to 2200 fps. That's enough get up and go to be an effective round. Easy to load also. Just fill the case up,to the neck. I've had trouble even with gas checks keeping cast bullets together in the 30.06 at velocities over 2000 fps anyway (mostly using lino type, and powders like H414, RE19, though even with faster powders like 4064, same issue). So I had to go with reduced loads anyway. Which would bring them easily down into velocities BP could shoot. It'd be a little light to go bear hunting with but more than enough to bring down a deer or person at 300+ yards and with a reasonable drop that you could be accurate. Hopefully you've done 30.06 and I can see how accurate my estimates are. I reload and I shoot BP, but I've not really tried mixing the two yet.
It was the 32 special that the thought was it would be reloaded with black power. There is no problem with hard cast bullets and micro grove riffling. You just have to make sure you are not using an undersized bullet. I have a 30-30 and a 45-70 with micro grove barrels that shoot as well with hard cast bullets as with jacketed bullets.
For whatever it is worth, I had the same exact results with my lead projectiles for my 30-30, using my choice of smokeless powder that resulted in my remelting all my 30-30 lead projectiles to be cast as pistol rounds.
shot a few 100 rounds through a rifle just like yours home cast lead like you but used smokeless and gas check on the bullet. 5 shots in 12" circle at 200yards 6" at 100 average on bench with rest. never tried bp thought about it, to lazy to clean up the mess. every rifle has it sweet spot. finding it is the trick.
Winchester did not release the 1894 in .30-30 until 1895 as they had no available smokeless steel barrels. Marlin actually beat them to the punch with a rifle chambered in .30-30 with the 1893 rifle. They also beat Winchester to the punch with a .45-70 by a few years. Winchester has always been a bit of an also ran.
Really like your videos. I made some BP, and have tested it by lighting a line of it, and it seems really good. Have yet to try it otherwise. Am planning on trying in a muzzle loader. Your videos have helped a lot. Keep it going. Thanks.
Less neck tension on the bullet would make a big difference shooting BP and lead. Your squeezing the lead bullet diameter down when you seat it, in turn making the bullet diameter smaller and less accurate..Larger sizing die (inside) to open the mouth/ neck will make the difference. Also a careful roll crimp if your loading a tube magazine is important. Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir
Winchester and Remington got into it, the 30 Remington was initially called 30/30 Remington, after a brief dispute in court Remington changed the name to 30 Remington.
microgrove works well for led if you size for it. If you have the time to slug the barrel, and then go up a thousand or two for the cast she will shoot better with those led boolets.
The word "special" meant that the round was sold as a smokeless round but could be reloaded with black powder. At the time smokeless powder for reloading was not generally available to the public. Also few people had the scales needed for precisely weighing the smokeless powder charges. So people who needed or wanted to reload their own ammo used black powder to do it. Some cartridges were around at the time smokeless was just becoming available. Such the 38 Special which was originally a black powder round and the 44 Special which grew out of the 44 Russian black powder round. The 32 Winchester Special carbine round was loaded from the factory with smokeless and a jacketed bullet but could be reloaded with lead bullets and black powder. The 32 Special has the added advantage of a slower rate of twist which is better adapted to lead bullets. So. You will probably have better luck with the 32 Winchester Special. Another round that has possibilties is the 444 Marlin round. It generally has a slow twist rifling for 44 revolver bullets and should do well with cast lead bullets. Marlins will be micro-groove so they want a hard cast bullet or a jacketed bullet H&Rs have conventional rifling so should shoot both well enough. Winchesters have faster twist so should do well with heavy cast bullets. The fun never ends. Thanks for all you do.
Nice video. Ive used pyrodex in 30-30 before. Rifle is a Marlin model 36A with the old style square bolt. Load Shoots great. I usually use smokeless in this gun though. H335 or Reloader 7. Pyrodex wasnt bad though with 150 grain gas check cast bullet made from wheel weights.
I thought this looked interesting so will try the same but using Hodgdens Triple-Seven behind a Sierra 150 grain soft point. I get much higher velocities with triple-seven from my .54 caliber muzzleloader with the same grain weight (about 15%+ higher) without pressure problems.
A little late to the party but to add to the confusion about the Markin microgrooves. I love mine. I have a 94 44 mag. I pretty much only use lead bullets, from 200 gr to 300 gr. It is one of my most accurate rifle. As others have said Maybe slightly larger diameter bullets.
I used to have a Marlin 444 with micro groove rifling. It shot 225 to 265 grain jacketed bullets just fine. But I never found a single lead bullet that was accurate. They were all terrible, scattering all over the place, regardless of load. A gunsmith at the time told me lead bullets were a poor choice for micro groove rifling. I also had a Winchester 94 in .44 magnum. Lead bullets worked fine in that rifle, even loaded hot (with gas checks).
if you used gas checked bullets your accuracy with the lead projectiles will be more enhanced...since your using a plain based lead bullet your diameter should be .311" because your using micro grooved barrel and not Ballard or button rifling the lead bullet has nothing to bite into due to lead being softer than copper jacketed whereas the jacketed bullets have a much harder jacket to grab the micro rifling and thus give it its accuracy which is what these marlins are known for.
Great vid, from what little I know from shooting 58 Rem 44 percussion and multiple "front end loaders" such as Hawkin 50 cal and replica kentucky rifle in 45 caliber you always wnat to firmly compress the powder by pushing firmly against bullet. I know from smokless powder reloading the norm is to have some airspace between powder and bullet. The early straight wall self contained cartridges and early bottle neck cartridges such as .577-450 Martini (1877 intro) I have no experience with . Does the black powder have to be compressed leaving no airspace in all black powder cartridge loads.
I have found that putting a 1/16-1/8'' felt wad behind the cast lead bullet will make a gynormous difference in accuracy (just be sure to not load the wad below the base of the cartridge neck). The felt wad/patch can be tried dry, or impregnated with tallow (i just use beef tallow), if lubed, use a thin cardstock wad behind the lubed felt to keep the powder dry. It will take cast bullet loads that shoot 3 foot groups down to 3'' groups at 100 yards... Try it out if you haven't already... Would make an interesting video.
I was wondering if you ever tried BP loads in the 32 Special? Pardon me if you have already done this but the 32 Special which came out after the 30WCF was created (as I understand it) for smokeless and BP so folks back then could reload with black powder in the absence of factory ammunition as smokeless powders for reloading we not commonly available. The increase in caliber was supposed to be better suited to BP than the 30 caliber much like your video with 45 colt where you obtained better results with BP than smokeless.
Thanks for taking the trouble and time. With black the 30-30 becomes the old 32-40 and still a usable round. When we can'tget smokeless, BP will give us something useful. As many have said, MicroGroove can be funny with cast, Just takes some work. Thank you again.
Some Marlin microgroove barrels just don't like cast lead bullets, some do. It varies from rifle to rifle, even with smokeless loads, and it's at random. So, it may not have been the Black Powder loads.
Thanks for taking one for the team and making this video! I've always wanted to do this but was never willing to go through the cleaning process...1894's are a bitch to strip down!
This was a cool experiment to see. But yeah, trying to load black powder into a smokeless designed cartridge doesn't sound great. 35 grains of BP is pretty lame for a rifle cartridge. 45 colt and 44-40 traditionally loaded 40 grains if I recall(though modern 45 colt cartridges hold less). And those shoot larger bullets. If you want a rifle that can switch to black powder you're probably way better off just buying a 38-55.
@@blackninja9400 I found the best way is to use cap gun caps from toy guns. Just pry the anvil out, punch out the caps with a star-shaped hole punch, and stick the caps in, seat the anvil when you are setting the primer in the case. Pretty dependable in my 38 special, but I prefer commercial primers, lol.
44-40 was never loaded with 40 grains of BP even in balloon head cases. Winchester used water weight not powder weight to name the cartridge it was false advertising..and 45 colt used about the same powder charge of BP
Winchester changed the name to 30-30 because it didn't get confused with a number of other cartridges that used 30ty in it. 30 us government, 30 Remington, and their was a list
I'm fairly new to black powder cartridges. My thought and it's just my thought which ain't worth much. Is that the twist rate is too fast and the micro grove rifling is not optimal for the slower speed and lead bullets. I had a 45-70 trap door that the rifling almost looked like a straight line and was really wide and deep. It was a tack driver at 100 yards with lead bullets and slower velocities. With hotter loads and jacketed bullets the groups opened up alot. Again I dont know much about black powder cartridges tho so I may be just talking out my @ss. Love these videos.
I use about 32.5 grains by weight of imr something or other, 1064, if im not mistaken, but these lil fellas are mooovin out of the barrel lmao. Like around 2400fps IIRC. I use the same 308 hornady jacketed soft points though, things a laser beam out to like 200 yds. I think the difference being that your lead rounds arent big enough on the diameter to actually use the micro groove rifling.
I wonder if the Lee 113gn w/ gas check #90362 would help zip the speeds up on black powder...slower burning...was only getting 1400~FPS but with smokeless you were pushing 2200fps and much more accuracy...lighter bullet but with black powder and a gas check?
I always was under the impression that cast soft lead bullets don't do well with the shallow micro-groove rifling in the Marlins, they strip in the rifling so are not stable. They might do better with gas checks. I notice all guns built for BP have pretty deep rifling for that reason... Might be interesting to try the same loads in a Winchester rifle.....
For 30-30. I would just use smokeless powder because those caliber guns were design for the higher pressure. I only use black powder in guns that were made during the black powder era.
Trail Boss and a 110 grain .30 carbine bullets are fun. Not sure I'm cozy with the idea of cleaning stinky corrosive black power from a model 94. Theres a lot of monkey motion in those nooks and crannies to clean. It's not like an old straight pipe coalburner😊
I've loaded 303 British cartridges with Pyrodex. They were not very accurate at all, but fun to try. Funny to see that smoke coming out of an old Lee Enfield.
Foomph.(it sure does sound different ) I’m a little surprised and disappointed. Could the microgoove rifling be a problem at those velocities with lead bullets? This might be worth a revisit if you have an old Winchester with cut rifling. Or not. That round was the “Whizz Kid” of the day, sporting the new smokeless powders using comparatively light bullets at high velocities. You could say it was the M-16 of the day. Jeff Cooper used to call them the Brooklyn Assault Rifle. They weren’t designed to use BP. I thought it would work O.K. I was wrong.
@@Everythingblackpowder It may be interesting to catch one of those lead bullets in a way that doesn’t smash them up , so you could inspect the rifling marks. I’m wondering if it’s possible that the lead projectile is shearing it’s way through the barrel without getting proper spin? They don’t seem to be shooting as well as a smooth bore. Something is up.
Interesting 🤔 this was a fun experiment but I don't know why people want to do black powder in a 30-30 or 30 WCF? Personally I think the best black powder cartridge for the '94 or the 336 the 3855 the parent cartridge 2330. I would actually love to have both the 3855 and 3030 as I think they both have their uses and pluses and minuses. I think those 165's we're not the right diameter they were probably slightly too small? Maybe a couple thousands off but you never said whether you measured them or not? Versus your four diameter. Anyway I know lots of people prefer the 150 in a 30-30 because of the higher velocity. How does your 30-30 perform with the 170 round nose nosler partition I know that is an excellent bullet for the 30-30 especially if you're going after heavier game. 150s are excellent for deer. Thank you I enjoyed it I will subscribe because I thought you were interesting and funny I like your humor. Thank you 👍
I remember reading about the long neck on the 30-30 coming from the manufacturers knowing it was going to be reloaded with black powder and most likely cast bullets, as being the first commercial smokeless cartridge people couldnt really get smokless powder and didnt have any data to load with. So they made the neck long so it would hold all the grease grooves in the neck and not contaminate powder
And it has been reloaded with Black Powder a shit ton over the last 127 years
I think it was more likely a hold over from Black Powder cartridge era being the first civilian smokeless there was no abundance of new wisdom yet.
Why? Blackpowder was loaded in Centerfire rifle cartridges from the late 1860s to the early 1900s.
@Robert Sears You said it’s stupid to load Black Powder into any centerfire rifle cartridge. Why is it stupid? What makes it stupid?
I loaded 8x57 case full to neck. 1.5 gun in 2f.
.32 Winchester special was designed for Black powder and cast bullet because it's got the slow twist and deep rifling.
A smokeless design made to fulfill the needs of those who were using the 32-40 WCF. As you've surmised the owners who were still hand loading their .32 caliber rifles could continue to hand load those same components while having a rifle capable of handling modern smokeless powders.
An interesting test might be reloading the 30-30 with black powder along with a 32 Winchester Spl (which was designed to be loaded with black) and accuracy tests done at different ranges. I've always wondered about the dif.
The prevailing knowledge is that with a micro-groove barrel you size your lead bullets 1/1000th larger than you normally would. 308 jacketed, 309 cast (standard rifling) 310 cast for micro-groove.
I've found best results with lead bullets sized to the groove diameter.
From what I've read, Marlin employed micro-grooving for a cost saving advantage in manufacturing, not for any accuracy reasons. More grooves, less depth. This is why the lands/grooves aren't the same function in terms of bullet sizing as conventional rifling. Personally, as I like to be versatile in my thinking, I don't own a Marlin lever for this reason as I don't want to deal with the increased difficulty of cast lead bullets in that sort of rifling.
@@exothermal.sprocket My Marlin has 6 groove conventional rifling, what they incorrectly call 'Ballard'. The old girl shoots jacketed and cast lead bullets very well. Some microgroove barrels just won't shoot cast bullets, it's an accepted fact among Marlin owners. But Marlin rifles and carbines were sold both ways when it comes to rifling.
@@gortbot7748 Micro will shoot cast, but I'd highly recommend the owner slug the barrel to see what it runs exactly, and size the cast bullets accordingly. They will have to be a lesser diameter within caliber.
Just too much messing around. I also prefer standard rifling. Ruger ditched the micro grooving with the new Marlins coming out.
Haven't tried black powder buti size mine to.311 and they shoot fine in my microgroove barrel 🤷♂️
DAMMIT! 😉Now you've gone and wrecked my preconceptions!!!! I always believed that 30-30 was originally a black powder cartridge!! THANK YOU for correcting my incorrect belief!
Interesting video it really shows why the 30.WCF was a show stopper in its day, a lot of difference in trajectory (and energy) between a BP and smokeless cartridge of similar size.
The black powder smoke residue will coat the lenses of the sky screen. Always back up to at least 10 yards away from the chrono with black
30 30 Winchester has been scarce as hell the last 4 or 5 years. Used to be the most common deer rifle. My Marlin is the 333 micro groove in 270 Cooper and soft point. I miss it
I whole heartedly agree with you on BP. The 30-30 would seem to be in the BP category because of the ”30-30” as you mentioned but it’s not. Yet it performed well enough for your test runs. I make my own BP and I run it in many modern day cases. For shotguns, in my opinion, you get the same performance as nitro powders for speed. For the 30-30, its like any other case originally designed for BP, you have to work with it to get the most out of it. In your case, you spread was super fantastic right out of the gate. I am confident that if you worked more on your lubes and bullet weight and design, you will probably get fantastic results in time. I currently load 37 deferent cases (chambering). I can get fair results with BP in semi-auto cases but I am compressing a little more. 9mm in the Glock shoots in a single shot configuration. It will not cycle fully to pick up the next round. Anyway, I have enjoyed many of your vids and look forward to more. Don’t worry about the trolls, they sit and critique but never do anything but play video games and watch UA-cam vids. Keep up the great vids.
Thank you!
Wow I would be interested in seeing some of these modern re-worked chamberings you loaded up sounds very informative and potentially very useful since you can make BP pretty easily! I feel like I could dive down this rabbit hole Head first!
With your glock, cut the recoil spring for less tension, shave metal off the slide to make it lighter and compress your powder fully and have it in as small granules as possible so it burns faster. Its quite easy to get BP to work in a 9mm if you do some or all those things. Lastly remember to use the heaviest lead head you can. More pressure buildup more likely to cycle in a blowback
The .32 win was developed to be loaded with black powder or Smokeless Powder.
1700 fps with a 160gr cast bullet.
The .30-30 has been a PB cartridge in my rifles since granddad had it. I was a kid I learned how to compress ffff BP into Cake BP. We would compress ffff at 39gr of powder by putting a Bamboo skewer down the center into the primer hole and pouring in a third of the powder in at a time and crushing it down with a of drops of water to make a cake of hard powder that after being put in with a desiccant to dry the powder than putting in the sun for a couple of days than polling the skewer and trickling another 3 or 4 grains of powder down the hole loosely.
Too it off with a 150hr soft lead 11-12 Bn round nose gas checked bullet and you get a nice crack and not a bang.
Lead in a Savage 99 or .32 Win Spl will do the job. You can get within 500 fps of Smokeless. At 100 yards I do not think deer care.
You just have to make sure you dry the FFFF cake completely. You might even have to put it under a incandescent light bulb.
Buddy; you've just become the 30-30 doctor , thank you 4 such formidable research 🎉 🙌 America loves you! Canada loves you ! I'm converting a 32-40 winch into a 30-30 . Thank you again 👍
Thanks for the information you provide and cutting through the bull shit.
Over sized lead bullets helps in a micro groove. In 45/70 I cast them at 0.460/0.461 and they worked ok. Lead fouling in a micro groove is really annoying to get out too.
Good tip. Thanks.
I enjoy testing black powder in modern cartridges. It's fun. I've loaded black powder in .38 special, .44 magnum, 8mm Mauser, .30-06, .375 H&H, .30-30 win, and even .22 LR. With the .30-30, I used the same 165 grain cast flat points that you are using, with 39.0 grains of Goex FFg. Velocity averaged 1,359 fps. I was shooting these from a 26 inch barreled Winchester Model 1894 manufactured in 1896. I was shooting at 50 yards, from the bench, with a sandbag rest and, you guessed it, I couldn't hit anything. Those bullets flew all over the place. LOL. I'm guessing the rifling is not holding them.
Loading the 30-30Win with black powder and lead bullets is bringing the 30-39s performance down to standard .357 magnum level. I guess its good to know what works in an age we live in where reloading components are difficult to obtain. I think the accuracy problems he is having is feom tye Marlin micro groove rifling.
38Spl, and 22LR were originally black powder cartridges when introduced.
The Marlin micro groove rifling has always had a problem with cast lead bullets because of the shallow groove stripping off the bullet . I have seen this on my .444 Marlin , if you use a HARD cast bullet and oversize the bullet by one or 1 and a half thousandths accuracy improves.
Been loading BP 30 30 since the late eighties. Never had a issue. Great stuff to know how to do in a powder pinch! Now if primers were as easy!!!🤣
Primers can be "re-primed". In a SHTF situation Berdan cases would be more desirable than Boxer.
@@chapiit08Yep. remove dimple, refill & go.
@@DenverLoveless Simple as that, unfortunately with Boxer primers there's an extra step or rather two, remove anvil and then replace it. Another benefit of Berdan primers is that a punch and die press can be made to stamp new caps to replace the ones that have ben reused too many times.
Can always just reload your primers
@@chapiit08 Yep easy peasy
If I had a single shot break action in 30-30 I would work a load up with Black Powder for crazy worst case scenarios and just for the fun of using 30-30 to make thunder and smoke
You could do any single shot, from Stevens to encore.
video didn't suck! I loaded Black Powder in my 94 Winchester back in the Seventies,(it's what I had, 2F in a red and white can, a CVA Kentucky kit gun, 94 Winchester, and an EMF .36 Navy) the local Otasco store owner said 2F would work. Like you I used sierra 150 grain jacketed flat points, don't remember the powder charge, but they were minute of paint can at 50 steps, loaded out of a Lee loader.
The 32 winchester special was designed to be reloaded with black powder. The twist in the barrel was slower. Other than bullet diameter the cases are al.ost identical. The 30-30 with it's faster twist and cast bullets builds black powder fouling and deforms the cast bullet. A jacketed bullet pushes the fouling out without deforming the bullet.
rate of twist has little to do with propellant, has everything to do with stabilizing the bullet. .32 is larger diameter than .308... so it doesn't require as fast of twist to stabilize the same weight. Once you move into breechloading, rifling depth doesn't really matter all that much, since each bullet scrapes most of the fouling from the previous shot out as it goes down the barrel (that fouling, especially if it has grease mixed in it (the real reason you should lube bullets with BP), is not harder than lead). Where you run into issues with fouling is at the case mouth, and it can cause chambering issues sometimes after extended firing sessions.
Winchester had .32 barrels lying around from .32-40, and people had been loading .32 rifles for a while (more support for it); plus, you do gain a smidge of performance going up from .308 to .321, a result of less frictional losses in the bore. The .30wcf case is easily necked up to use .32 bullets, so why not?
Yes the 32 uses a larger bullet there for a bullet of the same weight is shorter. This requires a slower twist to stabilize. The slower twist makes it easier to push black powder fowling out. This was the reason for the development of the 32 special as stated by Winchester.
30-30 is an alltime classic
This video is interesting on a number of levels. Thanks.
From the books I have read the '94 was originally chambered in 38-55 and 32-40 because Winchester was having trouble producing the nickel steel necessary for smokeless ammo. When the 30-30 came out it was loaded with 30gr of smokeless and they used the old naming convention.
According to Cartridges of the World 32 Special was always a smokeless round. I can't confirm or deny that. I had also heard for years it was a black powder round. It was a period of rapid change in the world of shooting.
My 30-30 is a new repro rolling block with a Walther match barrel. shoots cast or jacketed bullets equally.
I don't think micro grove and lead bullets mix well in higher power rifles other than a .22. They tend to scoot instead of spin and are prone to keyholing. Love the videos I did the black power stuff years ago.
I would sat the same thing. Sizing the bullets to .310 or .311 might improve the performance.
@@rogerclark9285 A good powder coating will help also along with dropping the hot casted bullet in cold water.
I've done black powder in all my rifles to see what works yes even a ak47 cycled just fine and even ar10 in black powder really interesting. Will work modern smokeless or triple 7 works great 👍
I love the 30-30. The 38-55 is better suited for BP/Pyrodex load. The 30 WCF was the first truly modern iteration for general use. Even President Teddy Roosevelt loved it for its "flat shooting "
Excellent video. Beautiful country scenes too.
Thank you
Back in the day, the .22 hornet was praised for being a flat shooter. Just one of those things that changes over time.
The .303 is.
I have a Winchester Model 94 which was my grandma's porch gun that she'd shoot deer out front sitting in her rocking chair at night. It's a circa 1926 and family tradition has it that they reloaded it with Black powder and that it's the reason that Winchester came out with the 32 Special. The shoulder on the .30 WCF case wasn't really that great for BP consistency of ignition and to get full completely, so the .32 in the same case reduces the shoulder a bit. Never heard of them having any issues, BUT that gun won't shoot a lead bullet either. I've tried different hardness of leads and finally bought some of the Hornady FTX for .32 when they came out and it loves em. I get like 12" 25 yard groups with leads of any configuration, but the FTX shoot sub .75" at that range and at 100 yards, I'm pretty consistently in the 4" group size with the horrible iron sights. lol I'm thinking that the old addage that some reloaders have told me is that if you want to shoot leads, you have to shoot ONLY leads and no copper jackets. The fouling with the copper creates little burrs and will keep the leads from gripping the rifling quite right. Perhaps a re-try with using a good copper fouling cleaner to remove any copper in your barrel, then re-try the leads. ;)
Those H&R break-overs have a longer throat, deep Rifling, and a 1 in 10 twist. My 22" barrel loves BP and a LEE GC 309-200 They drop at .310-.311 Powder coated (now .314) + lube then sized back to .311 I get 1 moa @ 100 yds all day.
@@DenverLoveless yes they do. My .45-70 and .357 Maximum we're ranged even longer by me. 8)
Dear sir I have tried a lot of lead bullets in 30 30 they never work well in marlin micro groove because they skip the rifling . They actually work well in Winchester or any gun with standard rifling if you keep them at or below 1400 fps unless you use gas checks which allows you higher velocity.Hope this info helps explain . Great video thanks
I agree with you. Thats pretty much been my experience.
Someone mentioned in the comments that in the early .303 was black powder While it was true it’s not loaded traditionally. it was a compressed pellet of BP that was loaded into a case that was not necked down after the BP was loaded the cartridge would be neck and a bullet seated. The cordite .303 was loaded the same way. I think a lot of early “smokeless” cartridges would have been reloaded with BP their was smokeless powders available but there was a distrust of them and probably rightfully so as the variations batch to batch were a lot more then they are today. Bullseye was introduced in 1898 by Laflin & Rand and was originally made from screenings of larger powder flakes from other powders. There were also several “semi smokeless” powders available that we’re basically volume for volume black powder substitutes(kinda like pyrodex).
Yep 30-30 debuted as 30WCF in 1895 available only in the Winchester 94 rifle that year and was designed as a smokeless cartridge. The Marlin 336 is a magnificent rifle design and very accurate once you find a bullet, weight and load it likes it’ll shoot 1 hole groups all day long at 100 yards. The microgroove barrel can be made to shoot cast well but it’s not as ideal as traditional cut rifling. My Winchester 94 works exceptionally well for cast and I switch between cast and jacketed in it with no issues and no cleaning (due to the ridiculously complicated field strip procedure and the fact the scope has to come off to field strip the rifle.). But it shoots very well and even likes the Federal power shock 170gn loads, it also likes Hornady 170gn Jacketed soft point bullets with IMR4895. I haven’t been able to get it to shoot worth shit with that LeveRevolution powder yet. I miss fat stocks of IMR4895
Luckily I have a fair amount of IMR4895, that’s what I use for 3006 and 308 but I’ve never tried it in 30-30
@@Everythingblackpowder I’ve had great success with it in 308 and 30-30. A good friend turned me into it and I never thought there would be such a long time without seeing it anywhere so never decided to stockpile it.
Do you mind telling me your 30-30 load?
@@Everythingblackpowder Sure, with 170gn Hornady interlock I was using 29.5gn of IMR4895 and my rifle, a Winchester 94, was keeping shots touching at 100 Yards. Not the hottest but accuracy was excellent and I dropped deer with it
Cool. Thank you
I have a 1950 Model 94 that the barrel is stamped .30 WCF. They switched about half way through 1950 to stamping their barrels 30-30.
Thanks for info
Excellent vid. Thanks for your work. I love my 3030 aand load smokeless only. Good old cartridge and rifle. Deer and pig get in the freezer kind of gun.
My gunsmith buddy ended up with an old marlin(pre 336) he found in a barn that was stamped 38WCF, he got lucky that the bore was good cause the rest was fairly rough, he cleaned it up, fixed a few parts and now its one of his truck/atv guns
I'm pretty certain that its a pre 60's 1894
Holy toledo ! 😮 those black powder loads smoked like a musket ! Forget it Charlie !
The original load for the .30WCF is a 160 grain lead projectile over a compressed black powder charge, developing about 1650 fps from a 24" barrel.
Paper patched lead bullets would make a difference, probably even approach the results obtained with copper jacketed ones.
The grooves aren't deep enough in the micro grove barrel for good paper patch bullets
@@usualsuspect5173 I thought about it too but it would be worth trying. If you already tried that, share your experience with us please.
@@chapiit08 well, LOL.
I'd need most of the evening to describe what I do, but for now I'm saying if your grove depth isn't at least .004 to .006 in . you might not get the paper to cut its self from the bullet ..Marlin actually had their own style of paper patching back in the day but the barrels were made for it. In fact I patch my bullets' Marlin style' when I put them together.
@@usualsuspect5173 Thank you for sharing that info!
This is a fun video to watch, over and over again.
The 303 Savage also came out in 1895 and I load it with black power. I use 190 grain bullets.
Interesting!!! Always wondered how that would work, now we know.
I did the same thing you did in the 70’s with a.44 mag marlin carbine and it had microgroove rifling and it would shoot copper but not lead also. I dug out a pile of hard cast lead alloy bullets and looked at them under magnification and they were stripping on the shallow microgroove rifling because they showed double rifling marks where they skidded and caught the rifling again. Microgroove is designed for use with metal jackets, copper,brass, cupronickel, steel, or other metal outer sleeve or “jacket,” Cut rifled barrels will shoot lead. I shot practical pistol in the old days and had a barrel for my 1911 that had.005 rifling instead of the.003 rifling the Colt National Match came with that also wouldn’t shoot lead. My Ruger Super Blackhawk would shoot better 100 yard groups than the Marlin because of the rifling and the better sights. In the.44 magnum I was using fffg Dupont.
Winchester came out with the 32Win special for those folks who didn' believe smokeless powder was here to stay.
I've never had any problems with the micro-groove rifling in my Marlin, but we also found a load it likes and have stuck with it lol
I hear it’s hit or miss, no pun intended. Some folks say their microgroove. Marlin works fine with lead bullets and others don’t. Apparently mine doesn’t.
Black powder residue is likely the reason that .30-30 isn’t shooting cast. Another thing to consider is the bullet size. If you’re shooting .308” diameter, forget accuracy with cast. They have to be at least .309” and maybe .310” in some rifles. Micro-groove makes no difference with the right cast bullet. Plenty of Marlin .22’s with micro-groove shoot soft swaged lead all day long. Powder coat is all I do anymore and my micro-groove .444 shoots powder coat as fast as jacketted.
I used to hunt Pheasant and Rough-Tail Grouse with my Father-In-Law most of the fall and winter season. At a point, I started loading my own shotgun and rifle ammunition. One day I got the bright idea to prank my Father-In-Law by loading a shotgun shell with black powder. I had to consult a local Flintlock Builder in order to insure the right powder load. Fast forward to our next hunting trip and I slipped the "loaded" shell into the 3rd loop in his shell belt (that's how he loaded his shotgun) so it would be the 1st shell in the breach. We had walked to a large clearing and sure enough, a grouse busted straight out from him. He shouldered the shotgun and clicked of the round. Brothers & Sisters ... the entire clearing was filled with blue / gray smoke at least 8 feet high. Knowing he would know it was me, but not knowing how he would react ... he broke up laughing. When it was Miller Time, I cleaned both of out shotguns and made certain there was no residue left in his Ithaca Pump.
I have found over the years that some guns just hate cast, or love it. Same manufacturer and same caliber. When I worked in a custom barrel shop, the old owner said he could never figure out as to why that was the case.
I have a Marlin 336 with a micro-grove barrel, and I found a load of 15.0 grains of A 5744 and a 150 Grain lead flat nose gas checked bullet. My velocities average 1300 fps. It's my go-to for Cowboy Action long range load.
Mmmmm nothing beats a marlin lever. Smoothest action of any lever gun
It looks like the lead loads were key holeing. I had the same results with Black Powder in a a .303 British .On paper the lead bullets were keyholing ,but the jacketed bullets shot fine.
Went through the same thing with smokless and lead with same gun. Turns out you need atleast .311 lead bullets and possibly larger. Freind has older marlin and it needs .312. I think it has to do with shallow microgrove not grabbing the lead well.
Always got along well with .311 hardcast 170 grain bullets over 9 grains of trailboss in a model 70TK
I've never had luck shooting lead through micro-grooved barrels. If memory serves an old timer told me no lead in micro-grooved back in the 90s. Similar scenario with the old guy sitting inside his truck snickering behind me. Couldn't buy a good hit. He finally told me.
I may start loading bp in my cva 45/70 scout. Thanks for your video!
Happy to help
I don’t know why some folks have troubles so to speak with the great old Marlin rifles with micro groove barrels. My old Marlin 336 pre safely micro grooved .35 Remington is very accurate with jacketed and cast bullets in the 200 grain varieties. I run my cast bullets at full velocity too. It shoots great with them. The old Marlins were the finest Marlins of all. Great video on black powder .30-30 loads. I sort of expected slightly more velocity but that’s the way it is sometimes.
What is your idea of "full velocity" in regard to the cast bullets?
If I recall correctly, Marlin made their M1895 in .45/70 with conventional rifling, because they knew people were going to be shooting unjacketed lead bullets in those rifles, and the micro-groove rifling would not work well for that application.
Thanks. I always wanted to try BP in my 30-30.
You did it so now I dont have to. Going to try Reloader 7 as you found it to be accurate.
I own a 336 Marlin made in 1950. Love it.
Mine has a straight stock instead of pistol grip style.
Just seeing this video for first time, now I'm going have to try this for myself.
I have a 1894 rifle with a 26" barrel made in 1917, Cresent butt and full length magazine tube.
It's also the most accurate lever gun I've ever owned, original marbles tang peep.
I'll probably use gas check bullet though.
The original 30 wcf bullet was a copper cupped 160 gr lead bullet.
There was probably too much pressure at ignition for the lead bullets. Check out the Lee manual referencing lead bullets and pressure causing the pressure to blow by the lead bullet which would explain why the jacketed bullets did so much better. I can get good accuracy with aci 2206h 27 grain which is a slower powder and a 110 grain lead bullet.
Funny , I loaded black powder in my post 64 model 94 back in the 80s.
I don't really remember the powder weight but it's written in one of my old manuals.
I do know that an oldtimer told me black powder should be slightly compressed so , I did.
Consistency was very good with paper patched lead round nose 140 gr. If I remember correctly.
It did hit about an 1 1/2 " lower than my smokeless loads at 100 yards but that's excusable.
Accuracy
Sound
And the smell of black powder were well worth while but cleanup was extensive.
Luckily the 94 brakes down a little easier than the 336 design.
I believe the Microgroove rifling is the problem with using cast lead bullets. I've read about, as well as heard other reloaders comment on Microgroove rifling not performing very well with non jacketed bullets. My experience over the years pretty much coincides with those results, although I was always using smokeless propellants. I have two Marlin lever guns, in .30-30, and .35 Remington. Both with microgroove rifling, and neither would shoot cast bullets with any accuracy or consistancy. Even using gas checks.
I'm pretty sure you're gonna take apart All those black powder loads and save them for smokeless instead ! 😊
forgot to mention that the Micro Rifling in Marlins are too Shallow for soft Lead Bullets
Microgroove Marlins can be very accurate with lead bullets if they are sized .311 or larger. 3031 is your friend.
Yeah I've always used 3031 for 30-30 winchester.
I can definitely hear a difference between the lead and the jacketed
Bullets. More resistance from the jacketed bullets equals more pressure which equals higher velocity and louder report.
Interesting.
Thank you for doing this. I'll be searching for any other cartridges you've done. I wasn't one of the one who requested but it's something I've been curious about. In a real long term SHTF smokeless ammo will become nearly extinct in a year or two. Depends on the caliber. While there are tons of 5.56. 7.62x39, etc rounds out there, but I feel those calibers will be the first ones that people run out of. Black powder in semi-auto is obviously impractical. The only one I'd even consider is an AK, SKS or something like that. Even those would get fouled up pretty quick if you didn't stop and clean it after 50 or so rounds. At least that's my guess at where one would foul up enough to start jamming. I also suspect you wouldn't get enough velocity to work the action in cases that small. 7.62x54 might be possible to use BP in.
As I suspected the 30-30 is reduced to almost 357 smokeless velocity. Not that it would be worthless, just not one of the better cartridges to load with BP when smokeless runs out. Obviously cartridges like 45-70 which started as BP are going to likely perform quite well with BP. I suspect 30.06, 7.62x54 and similar larger capacity cases will as well. Not having seen any hard data, I bet full case of 30.06 behind a 150 gn jacketed bullet would produce 1800 to 2200 fps. That's enough get up and go to be an effective round. Easy to load also. Just fill the case up,to the neck. I've had trouble even with gas checks keeping cast bullets together in the 30.06 at velocities over 2000 fps anyway (mostly using lino type, and powders like H414, RE19, though even with faster powders like 4064, same issue). So I had to go with reduced loads anyway. Which would bring them easily down into velocities BP could shoot. It'd be a little light to go bear hunting with but more than enough to bring down a deer or person at 300+ yards and with a reasonable drop that you could be accurate. Hopefully you've done 30.06 and I can see how accurate my estimates are.
I reload and I shoot BP, but I've not really tried mixing the two yet.
Lead bullets don't like micro-groove, but I'd also try 4 ffff powder.
Or fff atleast.
I haven't tried them out as of yet but I am going to .thank you like you're show its great content .good food for thought.
Thank you
It was the 32 special that the thought was it would be reloaded with black power. There is no problem with hard cast bullets and micro grove riffling. You just have to make sure you are not using an undersized bullet. I have a 30-30 and a 45-70 with micro grove barrels that shoot as well with hard cast bullets as with jacketed bullets.
For whatever it is worth, I had the same exact results with my lead projectiles for my 30-30, using my choice of smokeless powder that resulted in my remelting all my 30-30 lead projectiles to be cast as pistol rounds.
shot a few 100 rounds through a rifle just like yours home cast lead like you but used smokeless and gas check on the bullet. 5 shots in 12" circle at 200yards 6" at 100 average on bench with rest. never tried bp thought about it, to lazy to clean up the mess. every rifle has it sweet spot. finding it is the trick.
Winchester did not release the 1894 in .30-30 until 1895 as they had no available smokeless steel barrels. Marlin actually beat them to the punch with a rifle chambered in .30-30 with the 1893 rifle. They also beat Winchester to the punch with a .45-70 by a few years.
Winchester has always been a bit of an also ran.
Really like your videos. I made some BP, and have tested it by lighting a line of it, and it seems really good. Have yet to try it otherwise. Am planning on trying in a muzzle loader. Your videos have helped a lot. Keep it going. Thanks.
Glad to hear it
Less neck tension on the bullet would make a big difference shooting BP and lead. Your squeezing the lead bullet diameter down when you seat it, in turn making the bullet diameter smaller and less accurate..Larger sizing die (inside) to open the mouth/ neck will make the difference. Also a careful roll crimp if your loading a tube magazine is important. Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir
Your stuff never sucks always a hoot
Winchester and Remington got into it, the 30 Remington was initially called 30/30 Remington, after a brief dispute in court Remington changed the name to 30 Remington.
microgrove works well for led if you size for it. If you have the time to slug the barrel, and then go up a thousand or two for the cast she will shoot better with those led boolets.
The word "special" meant that the round was sold as a smokeless round but could be reloaded with black powder.
At the time smokeless powder for reloading was not generally available to the public. Also few people had the scales needed for precisely weighing the smokeless powder charges.
So people who needed or wanted to reload their own ammo used black powder to do it.
Some cartridges were around at the time smokeless was just becoming available.
Such the 38 Special which was originally a black powder round and the 44 Special which grew out of the 44 Russian black powder round.
The 32 Winchester Special carbine round was loaded from the factory with smokeless and a jacketed bullet but could be reloaded with lead bullets and black powder.
The 32 Special has the added advantage of a slower rate of twist which is better adapted to lead bullets.
So. You will probably have better luck with the 32 Winchester Special.
Another round that has possibilties is the 444 Marlin round. It generally has a slow twist rifling for 44 revolver bullets and should do well with cast lead bullets.
Marlins will be micro-groove so they want a hard cast bullet or a jacketed bullet
H&Rs have conventional rifling so should shoot both well enough.
Winchesters have faster twist so should do well with heavy cast bullets.
The fun never ends.
Thanks for all you do.
I like the 30-30 okay I used to really like it until I found the 45-70 that's my go-to now. Thanks for the video keep your powder dry
Nice video. Ive used pyrodex in 30-30 before. Rifle is a Marlin model 36A with the old style square bolt. Load Shoots great. I usually use smokeless in this gun though. H335 or Reloader 7. Pyrodex wasnt bad though with 150 grain gas check cast bullet made from wheel weights.
I bet that's a bitch to clean after the black powder
I thought this looked interesting so will try the same but using Hodgdens Triple-Seven behind a Sierra 150 grain soft point. I get much higher velocities with triple-seven from my .54 caliber muzzleloader with the same grain weight (about 15%+ higher) without pressure problems.
A little late to the party but to add to the confusion about the Markin microgrooves. I love mine. I have a 94 44 mag. I pretty much only use lead bullets, from 200 gr to 300 gr. It is one of my most accurate rifle.
As others have said Maybe slightly larger diameter bullets.
I like your videos and they are very informative. Thanks
I used to have a Marlin 444 with micro groove rifling. It shot 225 to 265 grain jacketed bullets just fine. But I never found a single lead bullet that was accurate. They were all terrible, scattering all over the place, regardless of load. A gunsmith at the time told me lead bullets were a poor choice for micro groove rifling. I also had a Winchester 94 in .44 magnum. Lead bullets worked fine in that rifle, even loaded hot (with gas checks).
if you used gas checked bullets your accuracy with the lead projectiles will be more enhanced...since your using a plain based lead bullet your diameter should be .311" because your using micro grooved barrel and not Ballard or button rifling the lead bullet has nothing to bite into due to lead being softer than copper jacketed whereas the jacketed bullets have a much harder jacket to grab the micro rifling and thus give it its accuracy which is what these marlins are known for.
Really shows the velocity loss with jacketed bullets. Lighter bullet yet significantly slower.
Great vid, from what little I know from shooting 58 Rem 44 percussion and multiple "front end loaders" such as Hawkin 50 cal and replica kentucky rifle in 45 caliber you always wnat to firmly compress the powder by pushing firmly against bullet. I know from smokless powder reloading the norm is to have some airspace between powder and bullet. The early straight wall self contained cartridges and early bottle neck cartridges such as .577-450 Martini (1877 intro) I have no experience with . Does the black powder have to be compressed leaving no airspace in all black powder cartridge loads.
Yes, just like a muzzleloader.
I have found that putting a 1/16-1/8'' felt wad behind the cast lead bullet will make a gynormous difference in accuracy (just be sure to not load the wad below the base of the cartridge neck). The felt wad/patch can be tried dry, or impregnated with tallow (i just use beef tallow), if lubed, use a thin cardstock wad behind the lubed felt to keep the powder dry. It will take cast bullet loads that shoot 3 foot groups down to 3'' groups at 100 yards... Try it out if you haven't already... Would make an interesting video.
I was wondering if you ever tried BP loads in the 32 Special? Pardon me if you have already done this but the 32 Special which came out after the 30WCF was created (as I understand it) for smokeless and BP so folks back then could reload with black powder in the absence of factory ammunition as smokeless powders for reloading we not commonly available. The increase in caliber was supposed to be better suited to BP than the 30 caliber much like your video with 45 colt where you obtained better results with BP than smokeless.
Thanks for taking the trouble and time.
With black the 30-30 becomes the old 32-40 and still a usable round. When we can'tget smokeless, BP will give us something useful.
As many have said, MicroGroove can be funny with cast, Just takes some work.
Thank you again.
Thank you
Some Marlin microgroove barrels just don't like cast lead bullets, some do. It varies from rifle to rifle, even with smokeless loads, and it's at random. So, it may not have been the Black Powder loads.
Thanks for taking one for the team and making this video! I've always wanted to do this but was never willing to go through the cleaning process...1894's are a bitch to strip down!
If you try it again try using powdercoat and maybe a gas check.
This was a cool experiment to see. But yeah, trying to load black powder into a smokeless designed cartridge doesn't sound great. 35 grains of BP is pretty lame for a rifle cartridge. 45 colt and 44-40 traditionally loaded 40 grains if I recall(though modern 45 colt cartridges hold less). And those shoot larger bullets. If you want a rifle that can switch to black powder you're probably way better off just buying a 38-55.
How to make primers ???
@@blackninja9400 use the .22 reloading kits the hardest part is saving the anvil inside the factory primers
@@blackninja9400 I found the best way is to use cap gun caps from toy guns. Just pry the anvil out, punch out the caps with a star-shaped hole punch, and stick the caps in, seat the anvil when you are setting the primer in the case. Pretty dependable in my 38 special, but I prefer commercial primers, lol.
44-40 was never loaded with 40 grains of BP even in balloon head cases. Winchester used water weight not powder weight to name the cartridge it was false advertising..and 45 colt used about the same powder charge of BP
Winchester changed the name to 30-30 because it didn't get confused with a number of other cartridges that used 30ty in it. 30 us government, 30 Remington, and their was a list
I'm fairly new to black powder cartridges. My thought and it's just my thought which ain't worth much. Is that the twist rate is too fast and the micro grove rifling is not optimal for the slower speed and lead bullets. I had a 45-70 trap door that the rifling almost looked like a straight line and was really wide and deep. It was a tack driver at 100 yards with lead bullets and slower velocities. With hotter loads and jacketed bullets the groups opened up alot. Again I dont know much about black powder cartridges tho so I may be just talking out my @ss. Love these videos.
That’s the conclusion we came to. If I had something other than a Marlin with micogroove rifling I would try it again
@@Everythingblackpowder well cool I guess I'm not a complete idiot then just mostly a idiot lol
I use about 32.5 grains by weight of imr something or other, 1064, if im not mistaken, but these lil fellas are mooovin out of the barrel lmao. Like around 2400fps IIRC. I use the same 308 hornady jacketed soft points though, things a laser beam out to like 200 yds. I think the difference being that your lead rounds arent big enough on the diameter to actually use the micro groove rifling.
I Just Love the Report of your "Other" BP Loads! such Nice WHOMPS!
Kinda would Really Have Liked to see YOUR Rx in the pills!
I wonder if the Lee 113gn w/ gas check #90362 would help zip the speeds up on black powder...slower burning...was only getting 1400~FPS but with smokeless you were pushing 2200fps and much more accuracy...lighter bullet but with black powder and a gas check?
I always was under the impression that cast soft lead bullets don't do well with the shallow micro-groove rifling in the Marlins, they strip in the rifling so are not stable. They might do better with gas checks. I notice all guns built for BP have pretty deep rifling for that reason...
Might be interesting to try the same loads in a Winchester rifle.....
For 30-30. I would just use smokeless powder because those caliber guns were design for the higher pressure. I only use black powder in guns that were made during the black powder era.
Trail Boss and a 110 grain .30 carbine bullets are fun. Not sure I'm cozy with the idea of cleaning stinky corrosive black power from a model 94. Theres a lot of monkey motion in those nooks and crannies to clean. It's not like an old straight pipe coalburner😊
I've loaded 303 British cartridges with Pyrodex. They were not very accurate at all, but fun to try. Funny to see that smoke coming out of an old Lee Enfield.
Foomph.(it sure does sound different )
I’m a little surprised and disappointed. Could the microgoove rifling be a problem at those velocities with lead bullets? This might be worth a revisit if you have an old Winchester with cut rifling. Or not.
That round was the “Whizz Kid” of the day, sporting the new smokeless powders using comparatively light bullets at high velocities. You could say it was the M-16 of the day. Jeff Cooper used to call them the Brooklyn Assault Rifle. They weren’t designed to use BP. I thought it would work O.K. I was wrong.
I’m sure the micro groove rifling has something to do with the lousy performance of the lead rounds
@@Everythingblackpowder
It may be interesting to catch one of those lead bullets in a way that doesn’t smash them up , so you could inspect the rifling marks. I’m wondering if it’s possible that the lead projectile is shearing it’s way through the barrel without getting proper spin? They don’t seem to be shooting as well as a smooth bore. Something is up.
@@chopsddy3 no kidding, My smoothbores do shoot better!
@@Everythingblackpowder I have always heard micro groove rifling is weird with unjacketed bullets.
Interesting 🤔 this was a fun experiment but I don't know why people want to do black powder in a 30-30 or 30 WCF? Personally I think the best black powder cartridge for the '94 or the 336 the 3855 the parent cartridge 2330. I would actually love to have both the 3855 and 3030 as I think they both have their uses and pluses and minuses. I think those 165's we're not the right diameter they were probably slightly too small? Maybe a couple thousands off but you never said whether you measured them or not? Versus your four diameter. Anyway I know lots of people prefer the 150 in a 30-30 because of the higher velocity. How does your 30-30 perform with the 170 round nose nosler partition I know that is an excellent bullet for the 30-30 especially if you're going after heavier game. 150s are excellent for deer. Thank you I enjoyed it I will subscribe because I thought you were interesting and funny I like your humor. Thank you 👍
Winchester 94AE 30-30... I need to try this