Thanks. All your videos are informative, but in this one I learned a lot of things I have never thought about before. That's the highest compliment I can pay.
Outstanding video. A real man connected to a real forest talking about the real issues of managing a real asset for a real profit while respecting the real health of forest land. If only school subjects were delivered to students in such an interestiing and relatable way.
In the middle of the video, you say, 'hang on, I'm going somewhere with this.' In truth, I don't care if you 'go somewhere' with what you're saying in the video: I just like your videos. I like your videos because they're comfy and it's nice to hear someone talk about something they're very clearly passionate about. You're teaching us a lot, too. Which I appreciate. Thank you. c(◕ᴗ◕✿)
Area of a circle = pie * radius squared. Don't ignore the squared. The tree rings might be thinner but they are also much longer. 1/3 of an inch over a foot is the same as 1/6 over 2. Further tighter rings make for better lumber. Something to consider.
This was hugely informational to me. It’s Basic Forestry to you, but to me it’s so enlightening. Now I better understand the issues of dynamic forestry on the U.S. West Coast.
Very nice analysis of the many factors involved in forestry best practices. I have noticed the same “ ring bunching “ in our doug fir trees in E OR. I have also noted we are much drier now than in the 70s 80s & 90s. There is a close correlation between the onset of drier climate & much hotter summers, & the decrease in annual growth. You pointed out a lot of additional factors which contribute to the over all health of the stand. Well done !
A damn fine explanation done in your usual inimitable style. I never knew about the 'stretch marks' - I'll be sure to keep an eye out for them in the future.
Thanks. All your videos are informative, but in this one I learned a lot of things I have never thought about before. And that's a very high compliment.
What Mr. Wilson is doing is playing an active role in managing his timber recourses (forest management) just like other private tree growers do. Dont forget, trees/ forest are a renewable recourse and cutting and thinning are all part of managing and keeping a healthy forest. Where as the state Oregon takes the hands off approach to managing public forest. That also adds to worsening wild fires each year but its easier to blame it on climate change then on their own mismanagement. There is nothing wrong with selective havesting of 2% of the trees each year instead of leaving then on the forest floor to be fuel for the next wild fire!
Your way of forest managment remind me how i like to do it. Im 17 now, hoping to get a tractor in the future so i can start doing closed logging like you do. Your videos are great and very inspirational.
I appreciate your method of forestry that seems in sync with the natural processes, sustainably, a good steward of your resources positively affecting your neighbors and their land. Also, I have seen a lot of doug fir bark and didn’t realize that growth rate was notable by the peaks and valleys and the color. Very cool to learn that. I am not in forestry in any way but I like knowing about trees like the way some like birds. So, thanks.
Back in the late 70's I was on a crew investigating a wide spread tree death in the Siskyous and Klamath basins. We discovered the tree death was from shallow soils that are common in much of the area. Water was not reaching the tops of the trees which slowed the growth and was ripe for bug investations. What you say here is verification of that discovery. Thanks for another awesome video. I am curious where you got your education but I can't help but think you are a fellow beaver.. 🙂
I really, really like your approach. You're right that it doesn't apply to my norwegian forest, obviously, but still there are similarities. Our Spruce prefers moisture and looks related to your Douglas Fir. The only place it doesn't choke out our Pines is on dry places with shallow soil. Economical convention is to harvest as they slow down. But I try to make specialty wood for boatbuilding and building restoration. So I want the trees to grow significantly slower than conventional and become 150 years old while convention is 80. Especially I want early growth to be slow. Late growth slows down by itself. That "age wood" as we call it is typically twisted right, and is very tough. It's perfect for a boatboard edge since it doesn't crack easily from nails, and also for the wedges we drive into the inside end of a wooden nail/rivet (1/2" or thicker nails whittled from Pine heartwood usually) Circular trunks is paramount, signalling low amount of reaction wood. Our Pines have a larger ratio of fat heartwood if the crown is small, which is another important trait. Pine sapwood is useless in log homes, windows and boats. Does that crown-heartwood correlation apply to some of your species?
Trees only get so big. Depending on the type of tree, they all have an expected size. If you don't harvest them, they will eventually die or get blown over and you have 50 year old tree that is wasted. The areas where the fur isn't growing, perhaps would be better to let the native trees regain a foothold, which would be a better habitat for wildlife. Or try a different type of tree or crop. You can add value to the land by creating small ponds. Better for hunting and fishing as well as holding water to permeate into the soil for the trees.
This was a great video, it sheds a lot of light on a similar issue I’m facing on a small parcel. The bigger trees have come to the end of what the land can give them and all the under story trees are stressed as there is just not enough resources for all of them. Time to do some thinning.
Here in New England, specifically in Ct, we have large stands on ash completely obliterated. Mr. Wilson, I have been following you for a year now. + - . I don't know if what you say is sound logging doctrine but I sure do like the way you present it. I think I'll go with it! Thank you sir.
A lot of us are trying to fix the mistakes of past foresters who thought they had sound doctrine. Hopefully we are learning from their mistakes. No doubt in the future someone will be trying to fix the mistakes of those of us who think we have sound doctrines. Mistakes will be made but hopefully current forestry doctrine is an improvement over the past. As long as we sound like we know what we are talking about, we should be good. 😁 Thanks for the comment.
I'm in northern NY . A friend I get black ash from is just starting to get hit by ash borers. I suggested he do a heavy cut but he's not physically able to. He's going to wait until they're dead and then it'll be to late. I'm going to get what I can for basketry but can't get him to face the reality before him.
Hey there -- we have a forest in Far Northern California that looks a lot like yours (with a lot more poison oak). I was wondering if you could comment on milling Douglas Fir that has been attacked by beetles -- at what point would you consider it too far gone to bother either commercially or for personal use? Thanks and keep up the good work!
Informative video ! The fact that you pay attention to the overcrowding of your forest and with overcrowding comes the lack of water and bug infestation is very important to know.
Anouther great vidio mike the stretch marks is how we marked our oak here in ontario canada didnt matter the size if it had strech marks we left it And here on thin soils the thing that grows the best is white pine its pure beach sand in places and it eill grow 160 feet tall and 4 feet in diamater im not sure if the western white pine will do the same just a thought
Western white pine can’t handle our hot dry climate. Sugar pine does well here in the deeper soil areas, which is a relative of white pine. It doesn’t do well in the areas where the Douglas fir are struggling. Western white pine only grows in high elevations. In this area around 5000 to 6000 feet where it is a cooler climate that gets snow pack. I am at about 2000.
where I live on Vancouver island large areas of hemlock and cedar were harvested 59 years ago the company that owned the land planted Douglas fir it did not work out well
They should have harvested at 45-50 once the growth slowed down. Douglas fir is worth 30% more than hemlock so there is more money to be made by growing fast fir trees than hemlock, and given that 32” is the max size of modern mills big hemlock is worth even less. Cedar is valuable buts it’s hard to establish because of predation by ungulates and it’s regional limitations make it difficult on a large scale(which is why it’s valuable)
@@HubertofLiege I'm guessing that donnawade is referring to infection by Swiss Needle cast fungus. It's a problem in dense, young Douglas-fir plantations planted near the coast, on what was formerly spruce, hemi, and cedar forest that is off-site for the fir. Trees drop needles, slow down in growth, and often die well before harvestable age. Mean annual increment (MAI) has little to do with it; healthy fir with room to grow doesn't slow down in MAI until over 100 yrs old on good sites, especially on the coast. Also, short rotations reduce soil fertility and degrade stream water quality. Its a trade off - invest income now, or grow larger trees overtime and maintain or improve soil and water quality. No reason one could not do a partial cut at 45 or 50 (via thinning or small patch cuts) and grow a mix of ages, and keep some of the cedar, spruce, and hemlock that seed in (or one could plant them to begin with). Its called hedging your bets. Betting on the fir grown dense (usually planted 8 x 8 ft.) and at a short rotation failed. Instead of following the short rotation, invest the profit, and repeat indefinitely model, less income but income assured over time could have been tried -- and in the future, there could be a premium for larger logs and other species. Logs from trees that originate in dense stands that are released by thinning will have higher timber quality (small knots, less taper) compared to the occasional large tree in an understocked area, which will be just the opposite, with more taper and bigger knots ("grouse ladders"). Second or third growth spruce is sometimes left uncut or tossed on the burn pile because it isn't worth it to get it out of the woods for that reason. We could also get another nasty disease or insect from abroad that could decimate single-species, young dense stands of fir or other species. APHIS (federal Animal and Plant Inspection Service) definitely worries about that.
@@davidbraun9309 everything is site specific and industrial tree farms as a rule don’t necessarily hedge their bets by mixing in different prescriptions in their planting plans. What you describe may work in some areas and some business models but it’s pie in the sky silviculture to the tree farm. I’m not saying it wouldn’t work and be beneficial, just not as a rule everywhere. Especially where dollars are the bottom line.
@@HubertofLiege I totally get your point. I've lived in the PNW since 1987 and went to forestry school here. Landowners practice timber management as they see fit. But there are a lot of alternative approaches, costs, and benefits, as well as risk. The stand could just burn or blow down, too, no matter how it is managed.
Great video sir, could you talk about conk? Ive been cutting up alot of city trees after the latest wind/ice storm blow overs up in SW Portland, and alot of the trees have or had conk growing on them, I know when a doug fir turns blue-ish in the wood after its felled the mills don t like them, (i was always told) i dont really know, and also i have seen some white dots in the logs as well, All in city trees, thanks for your knowledge and great videos, I work at a tree service and have done smaller scale timber logging in the past, but i just never learned the exact details of the trees, i just know pound wedge get fuel and limb/buck tree. Eat lunch repeat, go home. Also some bigger doug firs have very soft rotton bark at felling hieght, also smaller rings, Alot of questions, hope to hear back
If you harvest the Doug Fir, what do you replant? Or do you even replant or just let nature take its course? If the market is soft, can you stock pile cut logs and wait for a market improvement? This is a video that's gonna help me a lot, as I have a tree farm in North Idaho that needs some care/work this spring. Your knowledge of woodland management is impressive and a lot of help to us "Rookies".
I don’t need to replant anything. There are already plenty of other trees, seedlings, hardwood stump sprouts to take their place. I will just favor the existing trees that are best suited for the individual sites.
I would be able to stockpile logs and leave them over the winter and they would mostly be good. But it is so hot and dry here in the summer, these relatively small logs would crack, get bugs in them, and the mills would not want them.
Is it interesting to harvest now, wind dry the logs, then turn them into lumber and wind dry it some more? Does wind dried lumber fetch a better price?
Where i am (santa cruz mountains,california) doug fir really has no $ timber value( unless one mills it oneself). Everyone just chops it into firewood size sections(it sucks for firewood,though). there is a lot of fir here,but everyone wants it gone cause it is very prone to uprooting and falling on things. Yet everyone pays top dollar for df lumber "imported" from the northwest,grown on treefarms......
There is more timber here than I want to cut on an LT15. And more lumber than I want to try to sell. I might have you come cut them for me if I had a good place to sell lumber from. 😁
Assessing a tree stand has always been a challenge for me. It is only through living along with watching the trees grow I have learned. I have become even more aware after watching your video. Does a doug fir with a dead top always continue to die?
Well stated, and again -- the resounding reply to many, (most) forestry questions is: "IT DEPENDS" ! There are sooo many factors to consider: When, what, how, when (again) and then one last time... When?! I have it easier, my trees are one cycle, (20-ish years) younger than yours and Linn County has a higher average rainfall than your location, so mine are still growing with plenty of resources. However, the writing is on the wall and even some Doug-fir are stressing here in the Willamette Valley as the climate is pushing species tolerance northward. Another likeroo. Cheers from your neighbour to the north.
“It depends” is the answer to so many questions. A lot of people find it to be an annoying answer even though it is the answer. Extreme heat and drought is a factor here too. Pushing them over the edge. I am remembering those little white oaks trying to push through your Douglas firs. Hopefully one day they can take the place of the firs and be grand.
NorCal's a lot like SoOR. We had a massive DF die-off last year. It was cedar a few years back. We've got the weak White Fir around Shasta, which my neighbor just had logged. It will be peeled and used for sheet goods at the local mill. Very wet Winter, so maybe our fire danger is still abating.
I recently bought a good sized parcel in what looks to be your area, the fir are dying with very few old growth stumps. The house that came with the property is a log cabin made with 6 inch vertical logs. There are also no logging roads through the property. I have been puzzled about this as I grew up on the Clackamas river with good sized fir with many old growth stumps, some with spring board cuts still visible. But, the monkey wrench in the works is that the fir are dying there too. Anyway, interesting video, I learn something every one I watch. If I ever run into you I will call you Wiillsssoonnn, sorry, not sorry..😊
What a fascinating video. Clearly you know “what’s up” with forest management. You’ve given me lots to think about out when evaluating the trees on my little acre on the West Coast of British Columbia. I’d like to improve the health of the good trees (not log) and you’ve given me lots to think about. Cheers.
Spruce and poplar are a bit different they don't get stretch marks I always look for the smoothest barked trees they are usually the best ones but you don't know until you cut some down
@@toddyuill3924 Darn, good to know. I was thinking mainly about the rings when I cut others. Most of my age issues are aspen trunk rot leading to conks and ants into the spruce and then the wood peckers. The bark on the spruce does look like it stretches a bit though.
@@overlordsshadow we just had 40 or so loads of poplar cut in the last 2 years it was disappointing some of the big24 inch trees looked like they would be rotten and they were great some of the smaller trees look great but we're all rotten it's a strange tree it likes week rained soil I think too wet and it will all be rotten that's the way it is here any way and yes it the spruce is growing really good it will kind of have stretch marks you are right
Thank you, that was very useful indeed. One small question. Our place is on one of the Gulf Islands of BC. As drought becomes more and more a factor it is the Western Redcedars that seem to go first. Yet you said you would be leaving the cedars because they are more drought tolerant. Another species?
Good informative video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge! I'm learning to manage a hardwood forest in Indiana (different ballgame) but a lot of the same concepts apply.
It’s hard to pick 3 because it would be incomplete with only 3. White oak, Black oak, Ponderosa pine. I choose those because they are the most drought tolerant here and have the ability to grow on most sites here. All the species here have their place and I want to have them all. Including Douglas fir, just less of it and less widespread.
Good answer! I agree -- 3 species can't do it. Big leaf maple, Grand fir, Ponderosa pine, Oregon Ash, Oregon white oak. Even some of the lesser valued Wild/Bitter cherry, Cascara and Cottonwood. Diversity is the key!@@WilsonForestLands
I've been watching now for a month or so and I have to ask. What fine state are you located in and how many acres do you forest? I ask only because we are searching for our permanent retirement location. And having forested acreage is one of our ideas for retirement fun/projects. We have 10 acres now and unfortunately we hear our neighbors a bit to often. We love out mountain views. though. We love crowds a lot less. Your forested acreage seems to keep you quite busy in the best way. Have a great day!
I am in Southwest Oregon. This is 160 acres. The way I have found to get away from neighbors is to be in an area of larger parcels a distance away from civilization. I do have the advantage of being away from neighbors. The disadvantages it’s a bit of a drive to get here. Or to get from here to stores, customers, social life, etc.
Redwood is even less suited than Douglas fir for this location. It’s too hot and dry here for redwood to survive without irrigation. Coast Redwood thrive in a cool wet climate. Sequoia Redwood grows in the high elevations of the Sierras in a much different environment. They both do well around here if they are in people’s yards where they get irrigation. But not out in the woods on their own. In the cool wet climate where my coast property is, coast redwood does very well there.
You are very talented. As a one man operation, to what extent can you mill and store logs or lumber to sell at a better market? Can you work now and store up for retirement? Or does storing lumber make no sense. Is the firewood market any better?
If I store the logs, they will crack and get bugs in them over the summer and start rotting in the winter. The mills want them fresh. Then there’s the risk of wildfire burning them up. Lumber could be stored but the problem with lumber is, it has a high bulk to value ratio. It takes a lot of space to store something that doesn’t have a lot of value for its size. I would have to keep it dry. And even more risk of it burning or something happening to cause it to rot or deteriorate. Storing lumber would be more practical than storing logs. But there is more timber here than I want to mill. I don’t have time to do the logging, milling, on that scale, and run a UA-cam channel. The firewood market is not good here. That is normal for here, has been for decades and I don’t expect it will change. Over on the coast where my other property is, the firewood market is very good. That is the place we’re cutting Fire would make sense. Good questions, thanks for the comment.
When log prices rise loggers get busy and it can be difficult to find one that will find time for a small job. You can lose as much by waiting for optimal market conditions, or, do it yourself and experience the joy and satisfaction of being your own boss. 😊
Perhaps Armillaria mellea fungus is affecting some of your trees. Do you get yellow honey mushrooms around root rot circles? Do you have a trap tree program to manage the bark beetles? I see stress crop of cones, chlorotic yellow foliage and a history of harvest. You have high proportion of Douglas fir on a dry site. Potentially reduced increment is related drought conditions.
I have seen honey mushrooms around alder along the creek but not in these dry Douglas fir sites. Flatheaded fir borers are the main insect that is killing them. Also sunscald and cankers killing the tops. Drought and especially extreme heat in the past few years is a big contributor to mortality. But the slow down and decline started before the current drought. Periodic drought is normal here, and one of the reasons Douglas fir have a hard time surviving in this climate. Of the foresters I have talked to, they are not aware of any trapping on any significant scale for flatheaded fir borers. Foresters are of the mind that the problem is not the bugs, the problem is we have too many Douglas fir trees in places where they will not likely survive long term.
@@WilsonForestLands In my fir stand Armillaria is the main fungal pathogen in fir and you do see stress crops of cones, thinning needles, yellowing foliage, broken stubs and wind throw with a root ball. In the larch laminated root rot or phellinus is the main pathogen with white specks in the wood. You will see bulging knots and sometimes a wavy edge brown conk. Windfall from these roots rots are often then affected by fir bark beetles (dendroctinus) or ips beetles. The root rot sites often come back in deciduous or brush. They can be related to old stumps. Phellinus often is associated with fire history. My main crop objective is western red cedar and I have put quite a bit of effort into pruning limbs even up to 16-18 feet high. This enables them to gain both height and increment as those lower branches are less efficient and the tree has the metabolism to support more foliage. So up they grow and gain in girth to support the new height. I have some walnut species near the house and I get some black and Carpathian walnuts. I am on the edge of the walnut range sometimes like last year I have some winter kill. Last fall I got no walnuts due to this reason. Longitude 118’ 30” Latitude. 50’ 30” Elevation. 2100’ ASL On my twenty acres I have the range of species from hemlock to Juniper. Always something for a mature wood cutter to do. Thanks for your reply and your stewardship.
Great video! Quick question, are you able to share the maps of projected fir die off? I am in NoCal and am seeing a lot of similar signs with the fir on my property. Thanks!
I saw the maps in a local seminar about the dying Douglas fir trees. The seminar was held by state and federal agencies so I might get permission to use some of their material. I may contact them to use some of it for future video if there is enough interest in the subject.
I don’t have to plant anything. There are already plenty of stumps from broadleaf trees with sprouts on them that will take off on their own once the shade from the trees around them is removed. Also plenty of natural conifer seedlings. Of those I will likely favor the broadleaf sprouts like oak in the shallow soil areas. In the better soil areas a mixture of broadleaf and conifer. Just a much lower percentage of Douglas fir than what I have now.
So can you remove the Douglas Fir completely and replant with some other species? Of course then it is a question of what to plant. And thanks for all the information your providing we see a lot of western red alder that once it passes a certain size/age then begin to become more sickly looking and dieing. So much information so little timber to supply it to, my land is only 20 acres partially cleared for farming.
In my shallowest soil areas, white oak and some black oak would be ideal. In the medium areas, oak, madrone, ponderosa pine. On the best sites, Douglas fir, sugar pine. With some variation and overlap. But I have no need to plant anything. I have so much natural regeneration and hardwood stumps with sprouts that will start growing after the overstory is removed. Your 20 acres may be in a different environment. It may call for something completely different.
No but I have several degrees in the university of hard knocks. I have pursued education from many sources, just not in a formal college environment. Thank you for all your comments. There are probably some I have not been able to respond to yet.
Climate scientist look at the rings and only say how much the climate changed to make the rings grow smaller/larger. I wonder if they ever thought about resources and crowding. You are demonstrating how much thinning will affect growth.
Thanks. All your videos are informative, but in this one I learned a lot of things I have never thought about before. That's the highest compliment I can pay.
Outstanding video. A real man connected to a real forest talking about the real issues of managing a real asset for a real profit while respecting the real health of forest land. If only school subjects were delivered to students in such an interestiing and relatable way.
No kidding ! ! ! Lose all the touchy / feely. Deliver the real world facts !
That was an interesting tree lesson. Thanks
In the middle of the video, you say, 'hang on, I'm going somewhere with this.' In truth, I don't care if you 'go somewhere' with what you're saying in the video: I just like your videos. I like your videos because they're comfy and it's nice to hear someone talk about something they're very clearly passionate about. You're teaching us a lot, too. Which I appreciate. Thank you. c(◕ᴗ◕✿)
Nice forest forensics. Those practices of seeing what once was there to determine what should be there are applicable everywhere.
Your knowledge about the trees and their problems here in the PNW have been very helpful in my pursuit of managing and harvesting my trees.Thanks.
Area of a circle = pie * radius squared. Don't ignore the squared. The tree rings might be thinner but they are also much longer. 1/3 of an inch over a foot is the same as 1/6 over 2. Further tighter rings make for better lumber. Something to consider.
This was hugely informational to me. It’s Basic Forestry to you, but to me it’s so enlightening. Now I better understand the issues of dynamic forestry on the U.S. West Coast.
Great video. Very instructive
Very nice analysis of the many factors involved in forestry best practices. I have noticed the same “ ring bunching “ in our doug fir trees in E OR. I have also noted we are much drier now than in the 70s 80s & 90s. There is a close correlation between the onset of drier climate & much hotter summers, & the decrease in annual growth. You pointed out a lot of additional factors which contribute to the over all health of the stand. Well done !
A damn fine explanation done in your usual inimitable style. I never knew about the 'stretch marks' - I'll be sure to keep an eye out for them in the future.
I've picked up quite a bit about forest management watching your videos, which now has me looking at my trees and figuring out which ones to remove.
Thanks. All your videos are informative, but in this one I learned a lot of things I have never thought about before. And that's a very high compliment.
One of your best videos
What Mr. Wilson is doing is playing an active role in managing his timber recourses (forest management) just like other private tree growers do. Dont forget, trees/ forest are a renewable recourse and cutting and thinning are all part of managing and keeping a healthy forest. Where as the state Oregon takes the hands off approach to managing public forest. That also adds to worsening wild fires each year but its easier to blame it on climate change then on their own mismanagement. There is nothing wrong with selective havesting of 2% of the trees each year instead of leaving then on the forest floor to be fuel for the next wild fire!
Your way of forest managment remind me how i like to do it. Im 17 now, hoping to get a tractor in the future so i can start doing closed logging like you do. Your videos are great and very inspirational.
Amazing, I learn so much watching your videos.
I appreciate your method of forestry that seems in sync with the natural processes, sustainably, a good steward of your resources positively affecting your neighbors and their land. Also, I have seen a lot of doug fir bark and didn’t realize that growth rate was notable by the peaks and valleys and the color. Very cool to learn that. I am not in forestry in any way but I like knowing about trees like the way some like birds. So, thanks.
Thank you for the education on timber health and grrowth indicators as we walk our property
Back in the late 70's I was on a crew investigating a wide spread tree death in the Siskyous and Klamath basins. We discovered the tree death was from shallow soils that are common in much of the area. Water was not reaching the tops of the trees which slowed the growth and was ripe for bug investations. What you say here is verification of that discovery. Thanks for another awesome video. I am curious where you got your education but I can't help but think you are a fellow beaver.. 🙂
Or a DUCK...
Great information thank you this is one of my new favorite channels
Excellent work sir, thank you for sharing your time and knowledge with the rest of us!
Very interesting, you are easy to listen to, feels like the info is being efficiently transferred to my brain.
Thanks for the great information on forestry. I swear that must be your day job due to the wealth of knowledge you have on the subject.
I really, really like your approach. You're right that it doesn't apply to my norwegian forest, obviously, but still there are similarities. Our Spruce prefers moisture and looks related to your Douglas Fir. The only place it doesn't choke out our Pines is on dry places with shallow soil. Economical convention is to harvest as they slow down. But I try to make specialty wood for boatbuilding and building restoration. So I want the trees to grow significantly slower than conventional and become 150 years old while convention is 80. Especially I want early growth to be slow. Late growth slows down by itself. That "age wood" as we call it is typically twisted right, and is very tough. It's perfect for a boatboard edge since it doesn't crack easily from nails, and also for the wedges we drive into the inside end of a wooden nail/rivet (1/2" or thicker nails whittled from Pine heartwood usually) Circular trunks is paramount, signalling low amount of reaction wood. Our Pines have a larger ratio of fat heartwood if the crown is small, which is another important trait. Pine sapwood is useless in log homes, windows and boats. Does that crown-heartwood correlation apply to some of your species?
I'm on the west coast here and I also think slower growing timber is preferable, albeit less lucrative in the short term
Great information as always!
Trees only get so big. Depending on the type of tree, they all have an expected size. If you don't harvest them, they will eventually die or get blown over and you have 50 year old tree that is wasted. The areas where the fur isn't growing, perhaps would be better to let the native trees regain a foothold, which would be a better habitat for wildlife. Or try a different type of tree or crop. You can add value to the land by creating small ponds. Better for hunting and fishing as well as holding water to permeate into the soil for the trees.
Love this video! It’s helping me with management decisions for my forest. Keep up the great work!
Hey Mr Wilson ... you should make a 10min video of tree falling compilation with blups.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.
This was a great video, it sheds a lot of light on a similar issue I’m facing on a small parcel. The bigger trees have come to the end of what the land can give them and all the under story trees are stressed as there is just not enough resources for all of them. Time to do some thinning.
Good information!
Another lesson learned.
Thanks.
Here in New England, specifically in Ct, we have large stands on ash completely obliterated.
Mr. Wilson, I have been following you for a year now. + - . I don't know if what you say is sound logging doctrine but I sure do like the way you present it. I think I'll go with it!
Thank you sir.
A lot of us are trying to fix the mistakes of past foresters who thought they had sound doctrine. Hopefully we are learning from their mistakes. No doubt in the future someone will be trying to fix the mistakes of those of us who think we have sound doctrines. Mistakes will be made but hopefully current forestry doctrine is an improvement over the past. As long as we sound like we know what we are talking about, we should be good. 😁 Thanks for the comment.
I'm in northern NY . A friend I get black ash from is just starting to get hit by ash borers. I suggested he do a heavy cut but he's not physically able to. He's going to wait until they're dead and then it'll be to late. I'm going to get what I can for basketry but can't get him to face the reality before him.
Thx for sharing
Thank you for sharing your thought process on harvest. I’m seeing similar trends in my timber stands. Now, if the darn markets would cooperate…
Hey there -- we have a forest in Far Northern California that looks a lot like yours (with a lot more poison oak). I was wondering if you could comment on milling Douglas Fir that has been attacked by beetles -- at what point would you consider it too far gone to bother either commercially or for personal use? Thanks and keep up the good work!
Informative video !
The fact that you pay attention to the overcrowding of your forest and with overcrowding comes the lack of water and bug infestation is very important to know.
That douglas fir bark is incredible
Anouther great vidio mike the stretch marks is how we marked our oak here in ontario canada didnt matter the size if it had strech marks we left it
And here on thin soils the thing that grows the best is white pine its pure beach sand in places and it eill grow 160 feet tall and 4 feet in diamater im not sure if the western white pine will do the same just a thought
Western white pine can’t handle our hot dry climate. Sugar pine does well here in the deeper soil areas, which is a relative of white pine. It doesn’t do well in the areas where the Douglas fir are struggling. Western white pine only grows in high elevations. In this area around 5000 to 6000 feet where it is a cooler climate that gets snow pack. I am at about 2000.
where I live on Vancouver island large areas of hemlock and cedar were harvested 59 years ago the company that owned the land planted Douglas fir it did not work out well
They should have harvested at 45-50 once the growth slowed down. Douglas fir is worth 30% more than hemlock so there is more money to be made by growing fast fir trees than hemlock, and given that 32” is the max size of modern mills big hemlock is worth even less. Cedar is valuable buts it’s hard to establish because of predation by ungulates and it’s regional limitations make it difficult on a large scale(which is why it’s valuable)
@@HubertofLiege
I'm guessing that donnawade is referring to infection by Swiss Needle cast fungus. It's a problem in dense, young Douglas-fir plantations planted near the coast, on what was formerly spruce, hemi, and cedar forest that is off-site for the fir. Trees drop needles, slow down in growth, and often die well before harvestable age.
Mean annual increment (MAI) has little to do with it; healthy fir with room to grow doesn't slow down in MAI until over 100 yrs old on good sites, especially on the coast. Also, short rotations reduce soil fertility and degrade stream water quality. Its a trade off - invest income now, or grow larger trees overtime and maintain or improve soil and water quality.
No reason one could not do a partial cut at 45 or 50 (via thinning or small patch cuts) and grow a mix of ages, and keep some of the cedar, spruce, and hemlock that seed in (or one could plant them to begin with). Its called hedging your bets. Betting on the fir grown dense (usually planted 8 x 8 ft.) and at a short rotation failed. Instead of following the short rotation, invest the profit, and repeat indefinitely model, less income but income assured over time could have been tried -- and in the future, there could be a premium for larger logs and other species. Logs from trees that originate in dense stands that are released by thinning will have higher timber quality (small knots, less taper) compared to the occasional large tree in an understocked area, which will be just the opposite, with more taper and bigger knots ("grouse ladders"). Second or third growth spruce is sometimes left uncut or tossed on the burn pile because it isn't worth it to get it out of the woods for that reason.
We could also get another nasty disease or insect from abroad that could decimate single-species, young dense stands of fir or other species. APHIS (federal Animal and Plant Inspection Service) definitely worries about that.
@@davidbraun9309 everything is site specific and industrial tree farms as a rule don’t necessarily hedge their bets by mixing in different prescriptions in their planting plans. What you describe may work in some areas and some business models but it’s pie in the sky silviculture to the tree farm. I’m not saying it wouldn’t work and be beneficial, just not as a rule everywhere. Especially where dollars are the bottom line.
@@HubertofLiege
I totally get your point. I've lived in the PNW since 1987 and went to forestry school here. Landowners practice timber management as they see fit. But there are a lot of alternative approaches, costs, and benefits, as well as risk. The stand could just burn or blow down, too, no matter how it is managed.
Great video. Learning a lot from you. Keep'em coming.
You are my favorite on UA-cam. I have joined Patrion. Thank You
I just learned something new. Thanks for sharing this. It looks like it is time to harvest some trees
Yep I think you are right, time to harvest.
@@WilsonForestLands it is.
Great video sir, could you talk about conk? Ive been cutting up alot of city trees after the latest wind/ice storm blow overs up in SW Portland, and alot of the trees have or had conk growing on them,
I know when a doug fir turns blue-ish in the wood after its felled the mills don t like them, (i was always told) i dont really know, and also i have seen some white dots in the logs as well,
All in city trees, thanks for your knowledge and great videos,
I work at a tree service and have done smaller scale timber logging in the past, but i just never learned the exact details of the trees, i just know pound wedge get fuel and limb/buck tree. Eat lunch repeat, go home.
Also some bigger doug firs have very soft rotton bark at felling hieght, also smaller rings,
Alot of questions, hope to hear back
Thanks for the tree/lumber lesson today. 😉👍
If you harvest the Doug Fir, what do you replant? Or do you even replant or just let nature take its course? If the market is soft, can you stock pile cut logs and wait for a market improvement? This is a video that's gonna help me a lot, as I have a tree farm in North Idaho that needs some care/work this spring. Your knowledge of woodland management is impressive and a lot of help to us "Rookies".
I don’t need to replant anything. There are already plenty of other trees, seedlings, hardwood stump sprouts to take their place. I will just favor the existing trees that are best suited for the individual sites.
I would be able to stockpile logs and leave them over the winter and they would mostly be good. But it is so hot and dry here in the summer, these relatively small logs would crack, get bugs in them, and the mills would not want them.
Is it interesting to harvest now, wind dry the logs, then turn them into lumber and wind dry it some more? Does wind dried lumber fetch a better price?
Where i am (santa cruz mountains,california) doug fir really has no $ timber value( unless one mills it oneself). Everyone just chops it into firewood size sections(it sucks for firewood,though).
there is a lot of fir here,but everyone wants it gone cause it is very prone to uprooting and falling on things.
Yet everyone pays top dollar for df lumber "imported" from the northwest,grown on treefarms......
Great topic Mike! This is a good example of Thinning Work. I do this on the 1500 acres of the Block I've been Logging for years.
Hey Mike, awesome video love your site.
Trees for days ,glad you know what & how to manage your forest.
Lt15 wide, with trailer package 🌲💪🧡🧡🧡
There is more timber here than I want to cut on an LT15. And more lumber than I want to try to sell. I might have you come cut them for me if I had a good place to sell lumber from. 😁
What is the annual precipitation at that site? How long ago was the property extensively logged? Is there a market for madrone lumber?
Assessing a tree stand has always been a challenge for me. It is only through living along with watching the trees grow I have learned. I have become even more aware after watching your video. Does a doug fir with a dead top always continue to die?
Well stated, and again -- the resounding reply to many, (most) forestry questions is: "IT DEPENDS" !
There are sooo many factors to consider: When, what, how, when (again) and then one last time... When?!
I have it easier, my trees are one cycle, (20-ish years) younger than yours and Linn County has a higher average rainfall than your location, so mine are still growing with plenty of resources. However, the writing is on the wall and even some Doug-fir are stressing here in the Willamette Valley as the climate is pushing species tolerance northward.
Another likeroo. Cheers from your neighbour to the north.
“It depends” is the answer to so many questions. A lot of people find it to be an annoying answer even though it is the answer. Extreme heat and drought is a factor here too. Pushing them over the edge. I am remembering those little white oaks trying to push through your Douglas firs. Hopefully one day they can take the place of the firs and be grand.
NorCal's a lot like SoOR. We had a massive DF die-off last year. It was cedar a few years back. We've got the weak White Fir around Shasta, which my neighbor just had logged. It will be peeled and used for sheet goods at the local mill. Very wet Winter, so maybe our fire danger is still abating.
It is a good time now to check the property for tree harvest potential. thanks...
Really interesting video it was!
thank You!
I recently bought a good sized parcel in what looks to be your area, the fir are dying with very few old growth stumps. The house that came with the property is a log cabin made with 6 inch vertical logs. There are also no logging roads through the property. I have been puzzled about this as I grew up on the Clackamas river with good sized fir with many old growth stumps, some with spring board cuts still visible.
But, the monkey wrench in the works is that the fir are dying there too. Anyway, interesting video, I learn something every one I watch.
If I ever run into you I will call you Wiillsssoonnn, sorry, not sorry..😊
If you do, I will get a laugh out of it. 😂
Learning lots thnx
Can you harvest and dry the wood until it becomes valuable?
New subscriber here thank you so much for this video I learned a great deal from a great teacher.
What a fascinating video. Clearly you know “what’s up” with forest management. You’ve given me lots to think about out when evaluating the trees on my little acre on the West Coast of British Columbia. I’d like to improve the health of the good trees (not log) and you’ve given me lots to think about. Cheers.
Really excellent, interesting content, well delivered. Always enjoy your videos.
Thanks from Newfoundland Mike. Great vid.
Thank you brother for all your input in forestry !
I really enjoyed watching this!
Thanks from Italy, keep going
Great information there Mr Wilson!!!
Excellent video. This will help me with my spruce and poplar forest in central east Saskatchewan. Thank you!
Spruce and poplar are a bit different they don't get stretch marks I always look for the smoothest barked trees they are usually the best ones but you don't know until you cut some down
@@toddyuill3924 Darn, good to know. I was thinking mainly about the rings when I cut others. Most of my age issues are aspen trunk rot leading to conks and ants into the spruce and then the wood peckers. The bark on the spruce does look like it stretches a bit though.
@@overlordsshadow we just had 40 or so loads of poplar cut in the last 2 years it was disappointing some of the big24 inch trees looked like they would be rotten and they were great some of the smaller trees look great but we're all rotten it's a strange tree it likes week rained soil I think too wet and it will all be rotten that's the way it is here any way and yes it the spruce is growing really good it will kind of have stretch marks you are right
@@toddyuill3924 thankfully we have ugly black polars that run in the wetter areas.
Thank you, that was very useful indeed. One small question. Our place is on one of the Gulf Islands of BC. As drought becomes more and more a factor it is the Western Redcedars that seem to go first. Yet you said you would be leaving the cedars because they are more drought tolerant. Another species?
Outstanding. Thank you. I learned some stuff.
This was really helpful, thank you!
Good informative video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge! I'm learning to manage a hardwood forest in Indiana (different ballgame) but a lot of the same concepts apply.
Well done, sir.....
So with the top 6 feet dead how much time do you have before the mill won't take them? Love your videos
Mike what would be your top 3 types of trees to plant if you were starting from scratch with the property if it had nothing on it currently?
It’s hard to pick 3 because it would be incomplete with only 3. White oak, Black oak, Ponderosa pine. I choose those because they are the most drought tolerant here and have the ability to grow on most sites here. All the species here have their place and I want to have them all. Including Douglas fir, just less of it and less widespread.
Good answer! I agree -- 3 species can't do it. Big leaf maple, Grand fir, Ponderosa pine, Oregon Ash, Oregon white oak. Even some of the lesser valued Wild/Bitter cherry, Cascara and Cottonwood. Diversity is the key!@@WilsonForestLands
Cheers brother 👍🏼
Well spoken and well thought out. Are those new boots or just cleaned up?
Brand new boots. One of the soles started falling off my last pair. I took them in and had them swapped out.
Great video!
Those darn Flat-headed borers!! About what diameter is the cut-off for the Mills to accept the big trees? Thanks🇺🇸
How do you keep the underbrush down?
Learning video smart you are
I've been watching now for a month or so and I have to ask. What fine state are you located in and how many acres do you forest? I ask only because we are searching for our permanent retirement location. And having forested acreage is one of our ideas for retirement fun/projects. We have 10 acres now and unfortunately we hear our neighbors a bit to often. We love out mountain views. though. We love crowds a lot less. Your forested acreage seems to keep you quite busy in the best way.
Have a great day!
I am in Southwest Oregon. This is 160 acres. The way I have found to get away from neighbors is to be in an area of larger parcels a distance away from civilization. I do have the advantage of being away from neighbors. The disadvantages it’s a bit of a drive to get here. Or to get from here to stores, customers, social life, etc.
Have you considered planting some redwood seedlings? Would they do good in your poor Douglass fur places?
Redwood is even less suited than Douglas fir for this location. It’s too hot and dry here for redwood to survive without irrigation. Coast Redwood thrive in a cool wet climate. Sequoia Redwood grows in the high elevations of the Sierras in a much different environment. They both do well around here if they are in people’s yards where they get irrigation. But not out in the woods on their own. In the cool wet climate where my coast property is, coast redwood does very well there.
You are very talented. As a one man operation, to what extent can you mill and store logs or lumber to sell at a better market? Can you work now and store up for retirement? Or does storing lumber make no sense. Is the firewood market any better?
If I store the logs, they will crack and get bugs in them over the summer and start rotting in the winter. The mills want them fresh. Then there’s the risk of wildfire burning them up. Lumber could be stored but the problem with lumber is, it has a high bulk to value ratio. It takes a lot of space to store something that doesn’t have a lot of value for its size. I would have to keep it dry. And even more risk of it burning or something happening to cause it to rot or deteriorate. Storing lumber would be more practical than storing logs. But there is more timber here than I want to mill. I don’t have time to do the logging, milling, on that scale, and run a UA-cam channel. The firewood market is not good here. That is normal for here, has been for decades and I don’t expect it will change. Over on the coast where my other property is, the firewood market is very good. That is the place we’re cutting Fire would make sense. Good questions, thanks for the comment.
When log prices rise loggers get busy and it can be difficult to find one that will find time for a small job. You can lose as much by waiting for optimal market conditions, or, do it yourself and experience the joy and satisfaction of being your own boss. 😊
I have always done all of my logging myself. My concern is self loading log trucks may be hard to find if prices rise.
@@WilsonForestLands they will, and as more and more disappear and retire there are less of them.
Perhaps Armillaria mellea fungus is affecting some of your trees.
Do you get yellow honey mushrooms around root rot circles?
Do you have a trap tree program to manage the bark beetles?
I see stress crop of cones, chlorotic yellow foliage and a history of harvest.
You have high proportion of Douglas fir on a dry site.
Potentially reduced increment is related drought conditions.
I have seen honey mushrooms around alder along the creek but not in these dry Douglas fir sites. Flatheaded fir borers are the main insect that is killing them. Also sunscald and cankers killing the tops. Drought and especially extreme heat in the past few years is a big contributor to mortality. But the slow down and decline started before the current drought. Periodic drought is normal here, and one of the reasons Douglas fir have a hard time surviving in this climate. Of the foresters I have talked to, they are not aware of any trapping on any significant scale for flatheaded fir borers. Foresters are of the mind that the problem is not the bugs, the problem is we have too many Douglas fir trees in places where they will not likely survive long term.
@@WilsonForestLands
In my fir stand Armillaria is the main fungal pathogen in fir and you do see stress crops of cones,
thinning needles, yellowing foliage, broken stubs and wind throw with a root ball.
In the larch laminated root rot or phellinus is the main pathogen with white specks in the wood.
You will see bulging knots and sometimes a wavy edge brown conk.
Windfall from these roots rots are often then affected by fir bark beetles (dendroctinus) or ips beetles.
The root rot sites often come back in deciduous or brush.
They can be related to old stumps.
Phellinus often is associated with fire history.
My main crop objective is western red cedar and I have put quite a bit of effort into pruning
limbs even up to 16-18 feet high. This enables them to gain both height and increment as
those lower branches are less efficient and the tree has the metabolism to support more
foliage. So up they grow and gain in girth to support the new height.
I have some walnut species near the house and I get some black and Carpathian walnuts.
I am on the edge of the walnut range sometimes like last year I have some winter kill.
Last fall I got no walnuts due to this reason. Longitude 118’ 30”
Latitude. 50’ 30”
Elevation. 2100’ ASL
On my twenty acres I have the range of species from hemlock to Juniper.
Always something for a mature wood cutter to do.
Thanks for your reply and your stewardship.
Great video! Quick question, are you able to share the maps of projected fir die off? I am in NoCal and am seeing a lot of similar signs with the fir on my property. Thanks!
I saw the maps in a local seminar about the dying Douglas fir trees. The seminar was held by state and federal agencies so I might get permission to use some of their material. I may contact them to use some of it for future video if there is enough interest in the subject.
So do you plant deciduous where your soil is shallow?
I don’t have to plant anything. There are already plenty of stumps from broadleaf trees with sprouts on them that will take off on their own once the shade from the trees around them is removed. Also plenty of natural conifer seedlings. Of those I will likely favor the broadleaf sprouts like oak in the shallow soil areas. In the better soil areas a mixture of broadleaf and conifer. Just a much lower percentage of Douglas fir than what I have now.
Time to sharpen the chains and get ready for some logging before the heat hits
How big is your piece of land? Thanks for sharing
This is 160 acres.
@@WilsonForestLands Absolutely Beautiful!
So can you remove the Douglas Fir completely and replant with some other species? Of course then it is a question of what to plant. And thanks for all the information your providing we see a lot of western red alder that once it passes a certain size/age then begin to become more sickly looking and dieing. So much information so little timber to supply it to, my land is only 20 acres partially cleared for farming.
In my shallowest soil areas, white oak and some black oak would be ideal. In the medium areas, oak, madrone, ponderosa pine. On the best sites, Douglas fir, sugar pine. With some variation and overlap. But I have no need to plant anything. I have so much natural regeneration and hardwood stumps with sprouts that will start growing after the overstory is removed. Your 20 acres may be in a different environment. It may call for something completely different.
Do you have a background in higher education, mr Wilson? You know a lot and explain it well.
No but I have several degrees in the university of hard knocks. I have pursued education from many sources, just not in a formal college environment. Thank you for all your comments. There are probably some I have not been able to respond to yet.
Climate scientist look at the rings and only say how much the climate changed to make the rings grow smaller/larger.
I wonder if they ever thought about resources and crowding.
You are demonstrating how much thinning will affect growth.
"I wonder if they ever thought about resources and crowding". Nah, it doesn't fit the narrative. 🤭
Im so glad you noticed. There are lots of factors that can be confused for temperature
Where in the country are you located?
How tall are you?
Is there a way to mitigate beetle infestation?
How many acres do you have
Get busy logging! Who knew stretch marks could be a good sign 🤣
I’m glad these are the only kind of stretch marks I have. 😂
Time to harvest.