It's great because I never really thought of it that way before: i.e. it's not enough to get rid of "God", we also have to get rid of that "God-shaped hole" rather than try to fill it with something else. It's all about self-empowerment and understanding, than relying on some outside thing or force. Brilliant.
I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of modernism and a leading to the necessity of post modernism. The more I read Zarathustra the more I feel that Nietzsche's understanding of society transitioning away from modernism was absolutely brilliant. He seemed to just despise dogma and in general grand narratives and truly believe in the capability of the individual to exalt themselves above the world around them to their own excellence.
"A satirical story" best describes Thus Spoke Zarathustra, where the phrase also appears. The Gay Science was a collection of aphorisms first published earlier; but both were republished a few times in an overlapping period, with significant changes.
I am german and I was listening to "do not go gentle into that good night" a poem by Dylan Thomas and I was incredibly confused when when it said "blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay" but I guess now I know that it also means "joyful". they don't teach us that in english class
Absolutely. And it’s funny because my 14-18 year old self who basically carried around Thus Spake Zarathustra like a Bible, I totally misunderstood some fundamental aspects of Nietzsche’s philosophy.
Personally, I just want people to take responsibility. No more allowing God to be used an excuse. There is no divine justice or forgiveness, no ordained ethics, and if we want them we must enact them ourselves now. Nobody will work on us for us. That's for us to do as a part of our own life's journey of struggles and lessons.
To think God is an excuse when he holds the title of Judge and will execute judgement on everyone who has ever lived for what they’ve done is this life is a severe oversight of who God is.
Yeah, I honestly find myself pitying those who seemingly *must* have some deific metaphysical police state underpinning their actions. Why do they need the carrot of divinely-provided paradise and the stick of divine retribution like hell and the like as motivations to do good and eschew doing harm? Forgive my Neutral Good tendencies, but is it truly so hard to chose to good for good's own sake, without some distant divine incentive (much less some personal gain like social standing or a favour owed)? They fear being unmoored, but... why are their seas so stormy?
I think Nietzsche's words that most resonate with me are about being poets of our own lives. So many people equate Nietzsche's work with pessimist cynicism associated with nihilism when his philosophy tends to be much more inspiring. To not live empty lives when faced with religious or idealistic failings or absences, but to embrace the beauty in life's even most mundane aspects.
Yes, I think of him as primarily an aphorist, like the gospel character of Jesus, but addressing those of us who are dealing with our apparent lack of meaning in the Grand Scheme of Things... as if religion had ever given us such a sense of meaning.
@thenightwatchman1598 can you imagine how mentally exerting it must have been at that point in history to conceive these ideas and actually say them out loud? 😂
Can someone clarify further what he meant by " finishing the job"? Because it seems like the recommendation is to fill the god shaped hole with something else, or get rid of it completely, but it was never mentioned what that alternative reality looks like. It's like the entire video is dancing around the idea of an alternative to capitalism, but fails to imagine what that world looks like (and yes I am referring to that quote where it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end to capitalism).
Lol! I'm a priest, and the algorithm suggested this to me on a Sunday morning! 🤣 (I have a lot of time for Niche, BTW, he has some excellent clarifying critique that could help to make the cultural phenomenon of Christianity more in line with a compassionate suffering creator/saviour. 😊👍)
Yeah. I think a lot of the anger that is displayed from us atheists comes less from the idea of religions, and more from the shit that we and others are put through in the name of gods who we don’t think we exist, ESPECIALLY when the those things conflict with core principles espoused by said religious groups. It often gets unloaded on people who don’t deserve it, as well as to degrees and in ways that are unwarranted and/or unproductive. For those who do follow religions in a benign manner though, keep it up 👍
@johnmirlescearcy4980 Thanks! imho, I hope I don't follow Christ in a benign manner. Just a confident manner. People who start clutching their pearls because atheism exists and Nietzsche writes the words "God is Dead" and don't even bother to find out what his point was don't strike me as people who had much faith in the transformative power of Christ in the first place. They probably had their faith intricately tied up with all the minutiae of their context and culture, so the slightest thing that might disturb that is threatening to them. And I think that's why they get triggered by so-called culture wars when, Christianity at least, is much more interested in class war and providing radical care for the most vulnerable whilst flattening the systems of oppression. When it comes to people who hold delicately to a cultural Christianity that they don't understand (because of patriotism or whatever), I always think of a Bill Hicks bit: he did his bit about how Jesus probably wouldn't want to see cross necklaces when he returns and then says, "I told that one time and three guys came up at the end and said 'hey buddy, we're Christians and we didn't like what you said'; so I said, 'so forgive me'". Gets me every time! 🤣
I haven't seen seventeen in forty years, my animosity to religion has nothing to do with philosophy. I find that the inability to engage in critical thinking in many cases have a direct link to lifelong acceptance of religion.
Oh, if only a religion such as Christianity rejected critical thinking, then there wouldn't be SO MANY different denominations, sects, and theological debates between groups. What, do you think that Christianity is just some monolithic religion that hasn't had dozens of councils and debates within? Were councils like Nicaea and Chalcedon just held for shits and giggles? Was the Reformation just a troll, not an attempt to critically engage with the corrupt nature of the Catholic church? Was someone like Aquinas inflexible and unwilling to engage with non-Christian texts? And that's just in Christianity. Don't get me started on the different sects and theological understandings in the likes of Judaism and Islam...
But have you engaged in critical thinking about your rejection of it? About the pervasiveness of "supreme being" thinking in society and how it's affected you? Are you sure you didn't swap one idea for another? You saying it's animosity makes me wonder.
I grew up in upper middle class suburbia and the vast majority of people were atheist. I don’t think I’ve met more than 10 people in my whole life who can actually think critically. It’s extremely rare even at my school which was one of the wealthiest and best scoring in the state. I don’t think it is a problem with religion, it’s a problem with our species as a whole.
@@lysanamcmillan7972you are just another example of the casual smugness everyone feels entitled to treat atheists with most of us have actually given all that plenty of thought, yes even the new atheist movement did
That was a good listen, I didn't consider the "finish the job" kind of mentality in finding new ways and meanings when it comes to existing after the idea of Gods. We tore god out of us and now we're infected. It helps explain the types of people who are a bit rampant in their view of "how can you go without hurting people without god." I think they do help show how we haven't done our due diligence to really enshrine humane yet secular ethics in our existence. Thank you for this.
That is because secular ethics, put bluntly, have failed. Be it effective altruism, the myriad failed attempts to establish a universal categorical imperative, the attempts to ground secular virtue ethics, utilitarianism, etc. They all either end with repugnant conclusions or collapse into hedonism/nihilism (depending on the failings of the particular system). Secular moral philosophy has a LONG way to go before it wins any sort of societal trust (which is an implicit requirement of any successful ethical system).
@@flyingphoenix113frankly I don’t think you can successfully justify the internal enforcement of an ethics system without belief in an absolute standard of morality (ie, a diety/metaphysical entity). It seems to me the premise of morality is part and parcel to the concept of divinity in our mythological consciousness/linguistics. Can we justify an ethics system which functions well enough to run a society, but we can’t trust people when our back is turned? I think we’re testing that hypothesis now. Is it working out for us? Don’t know yet. But I’m thinking something will have to give eventually haha
I haven't read very much of Nietzsche, but this really proposed some interesting ideas to me. Leaving the evangelical church had social, political, and even economic consequences for me. I lost many friends, my job (gotten through the social connections of* the church) became less stable, and as my values abandoned conservatism I shifted dramatically left. The creation of the "god shaped hole" wasn't purely a mental construct, but also a materially consequential aspect of my life at the time. This is the first time I've heard an espousal of the idea that "killing god" must be an inherently nurturing act in relation to the human spirit, rather than a violent act of oppressed in relation to the oppressor. Cheers!
I can relate to this so much! The God shaped hole is real and in as much as this video refers to a sort of collective filling of it, learning how to actually do that in your personal life is so different and really hard? Lol
Hey Michael, check out (if you can) John Caputo’s chapter in Zizek’s book “Hegel and the Infinite: Religion, Politics, and Dialectic.” I find this piece directly addresses the consequences of the death of god and is one of the few articles that has truly inspired me/overwhelmed me with emotion. I hope it gives you inspiration for a follow up to this video!
Where was this video 13yrs ago? Awesome vid as usual. Its still revelatory to me that people were using an unfinished quote that, “God is dead…” They always used it in with passion instead of neutrality.
This reminds me about how a person with an addictive personality will ditch cigs to start drinking and stop drinking to start coping with food-in all honesty I am a hardcore atheist who struggles communicating with religious individuals about religion bc I few it as the Flying Spaghetti Monster idea-and as a side note I have read Nizches full God’s Not Dead but goddammit it never clicked until you brought up the Q Anon analogy and now I need to think a bit more thoughtfully about it I think- good job Wisecrack! You always help communicate these old big ideas in a way I can better understand and appreciate :)
@@WisecrackEDU -- Yeah that's important to fix. You may also really want to dive into his relationship with his father, a clergyman, and his early death as well. Nietzsche was really deeply affected by it, and his numerous train treks through the country also played a role. His linguistics work also played major role, as few men a live at the time were as deeply invested in the language of language as he was, which is grossly overshadowed by the philosophy rants.
@@WisecrackEDU It was a good video though. He is one of the most enigmatic philosophers which is partly what makes him so fascinating. He also is the philosopher of religious deconstruction (not to be confused with Derrida) which also makes him interesting, and that is also why read (half) his Will to Power as independent reading for fun.
"By the time I was getting ready to graduate from high school in 1966, _Time_ magazine, of all publications, caused me to reevaluate my tenuous belief system with one splashy and provocative headline. Written in large red block letters on a stark black background, a headline in the magazine posed the following question: IS GOD DEAD? What the hell! The Yahweh I had been introduced to was supposed to be immortal. But maybe the editors of _Time_ were on to something. One must remember the times we were living in. In the late fifties and the early sixties, the country seemed to be living on the brink of nuclear holocaust. Those were simpler times, and America had only one real enemy, the Soviet Union. The Soviets had tons of nukes aimed at us and we had tons of nukes aimed at them. Many people in this country spent their weekends building and outfitting bomb shelters in their backyards just in case the Commies dropped the big one on us. In retrospect, it was more than a little ridiculous. (And it became the basis of one of my favorite movies, _Dr. Strangelove.)_ These were the conditions that led many to feel that God must be dead. (Or maybe he just had a great sense of humor. Nothing creates great comedy like tension.) In the year leading up to the headline, we were inundated with even more bad news. The war in Vietnam was escalating with breathtaking speed, hellish images of civil rights workers being beaten in the South filled our TV screens, and the assassination of black activist Malcolm X, tragically and ironically, kicked off 1966’s National Brotherhood Week. With all of that going on, why not a dead God? In fact, a better headline might have been DID WE KILL GOD? Let’s face it, if God was, in fact, dead, he did not expire naturally. Just as Christians are told that Jesus died for their sins, God obviously suffered his fatal collapse under the weight of America’s collective, misguided savagery. Either way, I remember thinking at the time, even if I don’t believe in him, a dead God isn’t good news." - Lewis Black, _Me of Little Faith_
This was really thought provoking. I’d considered the idea of God being replaced by celebrity, media, etc, but not the idea that it had to be killed and the process completed, lest the cycle repeat endlessly.
I think you summarized it better than wisecrack did. I was disappointed in this video. I don't think the point came across clearly clearly. And I think he's putting too much undue burden on atheists, like it's their job to figure everything out. In reality it's everyone's job to figure out the truth.
Can someone clarify further what he meant by " finishing the job"? Because it seems like the recommendation is to fill the god shaped hole with something else, or get rid of it completely, but it was never mentioned what that alternative reality looks like. It's like the entire video is dancing around the idea of an alternative to capitalism, but fails to imagine what that world looks like (and yes I am referring to that quote where it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end to capitalism).
It is strange that Atheism is categorized the same way as something like Christians. It is actually better categorized above theism. Like you wouldn't categorize non-stamp collectors and collectors of American stamps at the same level, and you wouldn't categorize all non-stamp collectors on the same level as stamp collectors. Theism is belief in a ideology which contains one or more god like beings. Like you could have a category of sandwiches which contain pickles. A god is one part of the ideology as their reason for claiming they are right. Why do people group every possible ideology that could exist which does not contain the specific feature of godlike beings the same way they group a specific religion like Christianity? There are even some people group it the same as a sect of Christianity like Catholics, which seems ignorant to me.
Thank you so much for crediting the clips you use. There have been a number of times where I can't recall where I've seen a thing, or I know it from somewhere, but haven't seen the source material and want to.
I can’t believe that Neitzche would be misunderstood and taken out of context, next are you going to tell me that there are people who completely missed the point of Machiavelli ❤❤❤
@@FavianShields if not sarcastic, he was saying, "This is how it is done these days. I am not saying it's right or noble. I'm warning you it's a freaking combat zone."
I take the phrase "god is dead" less as a proclamation of victory, and more like a call to responsibility. If god is dead, then it falls to humans to keep humanity alive. Like a child growing up only to bury their own parents, and will in turn be buried by their children. If you wanna take it to the logical conclussion, I'm basically saying Therapy is a replacement for Religion, but that doesn't mean something else won't eventually replace therapy.
Nietzsche definitely didn't mean "God is dead" to be a proclamation of victory. That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? He's mourning the death of God and crying out for some way to make it right.
Nietzsche definitely didn't mean "God is dead" to be a proclamation of victory. That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? He's mourning the death of God and crying out for some way to make it right.
@@trey1531 Therapy serves the exact same purpose as religion, except it's even more comprehensive and inclusive. People are unhappy because of how corporations and governments conduct themselves and intrude on people's lives.
@@Kazuma11290That’s complete nonsense, the two are opposites really. Religion provides answers, therapy provides questions. Religion has commandments and therapy demands of you to live according to your own commandments. They really don’t serve the same purpose at all, but they do both inspire similar cultish reverence by people like you…
Interesting point about the link between Bill maher, Jordan Peterson, and using their beliefs as a scapegoat for prejudice. Ironically. the latter was on the former's podcast.
People have been using religious beliefs to justify shitty behavior for millennia. "My God says you suck and don't deserve to live" is a powerful motivator...
I love how everyone forgets the rest of that quote; god is dead and we have killed him. We,the humans who invented gods in the first place. If we can create a thing, then we can destroy that thing.
Awesome video! Thank you so much for all your work. I have 2 thoughts on the topic: 1. I always feel like the issue with modern atheism is not only this god-shaped hole, but also the neglect of the history of religions. Surely, nothing good can come of it since the premise is all wrong. But that both dismisses the origin of religions, a sense of meaningfulness and purpose in a complex world, as well as any accomplishments made in the name of religion along the way. I at least imagine that I can sense that in today's capitalistic system. Very often, any bit of christian morality is eschewed because of the whiff of religion for a "better" measure of numbers over everything, completely forgetting that those numbers were made by people and are often taken on faith. 2. 17:30 I think this is an extremely idealized version of the fight between theism and atheism. I feel like, on average, humans are not that rational or malleable. It does not matter if the new and improved Nietzsche-atheism is more logically and ideologically grounded. Religion exists for a reason. Humans want to believe in stuff. So it's gonna be really hard to continually convince them of the superiority of this Nietzsche-atheism. So I don't think this fight is won by improving atheism or if it even needs to be won since, in the end, the motivation behind becoming a morally upstanding and healthy individual kind of does not matter. That being said, it's obviously extremely important to know about these glitches in our perception and thinking.
My favorite band is Bad Religion and they have made a DVD of their earliest shows (early 80s I think). They explain what "bad religion" means and I think they must have read Nietzsche because, despite their logo being the cross buster, they say it isn't about being anti-religion it's about being anti-thought that can replace religion.
I just had this conversation with someone over Christian nationalist. Someone tried to dismiss them because they are contradictory with in our political system but I tried to explain that assuming the common follower of the ideology is understandable because so many are secular and have not created a sound moral and ethical system which creates many different problems like aligning our selves with the ideals of consumption, capital and presentations in the media rather more of aligning our selves with an altruistic, forgiving powerful, and knowledgeable ideal. They want more people to have a moral foundational basis but I think it's just simply that it is theirs not one based on ethics, reason, and self exploration. Interestingly enough those things are undervalued and cut from our schools focusing more on hard skills and jobs skills rather then being moral ethical and informed civic body. I think they recognizd and concerned about a reasonable problem but aren't not trying to solve it in a good way. That's all assuming that they aren't not trying to use religion and moral high ground for power grabs and discretion lol, which is likely
@@michaelfinlay6341 the followers I just think have a small world view and are being taken advantage of for it. The lack of moral and ethical education IS an issue and threat to society because of things like Christian nationalist. The higher ups on the other hand know that their fallowrs have a smaller world and they can take advantage of their fear. So the higher ups keep them in that fearful state It's like any other cult to foster and exploit underdeveloped people for political, economic or social gain. It's just in an interesting spot in our society
This is a video that structures my journey over the last 9 years. I was the "17 yr old atheist" at 23. My parents are both ordained ministers in Christianity. I spent so long bitter and quoted this work so much without actually understanding that my actions are equally on trial. I've grown and changed to not become so militant. This video is an amazing deconstruction of those beliefs I held so tightly as a new atheist. I would love to show this to my family, but because of my rejection of their beliefs, they will see Michael's cheeky jokes as attacks. Them seeing it that way is my fualt. Great video, as always.
Why are you an atheist? If you or anyone were to objectively read and understand the hurtling projection of humanity in comparison to God's word to us, you would see this world and it's inhabitants are in for a rude awakening very soon. Source: The Bible... specifically Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Revelation 13. Everyone must understand that we all have spiritual enemies, along with our sinful flesh that are against us and have but one goal in mind... the annihilation of our souls. We'll all find out the reality of our existence very soon. Heed God's word or don't. There will be incredible reward or severe consequences. If you happen to end up exercising your faith in the living God of the Bible... remember this, follow Acts 2:38 to a T, including baptism in the name of Jesus, and the other thing being that Jesus is NOT God. He's a man like you and me, but he is highly exalted because of his loving acts of which God brought him into existence for, most of which being his self sacrifice, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father.
Thank you. As a Christian, I feel like his work is very misunderstood but incredibly valuable to believers and non believers alike. I've always seen his writings as an observation on the effect of a lack of faith on a people, or rather .. pointing out that people do need purpose, meaning, and we'll seek it out anywhere which leads to problems. Our world , even in his time I think, seems to be determined to belittle the humans deeper needs because.. hey, peasant, get back to work. There's no time for any of that fluffy self improvement or nurturing the soul/psyche stuff. And it's all but impossible to talk to other Christians about him without them acting like i just kicked a puppy lol.
My new value in life is to keep watching and enjoying Wisecrack videos on philosophy. I hope Nietzsche is proud of me...for real though I love this channel ;D
I'm Catholic, and I've been reading Nietzsche since last year. Some people on my Catholic side have been telling me that, if I read The Gay Science, I would apostatize. To be perfectly honest, I've read it, and also Thus Spoke Zarathustra and The Anti-Christ, and I became even more Christian. With a more dynamic approach on my faith.
This is Satan creating apathy in us. The bible says that at judgment there will be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth for those deemed not worthy of eternal life. Apathy towards our Creator and what hinges on his decision of our final eternal resting place is a hopeful result in us of Satan. The Bible points to Satan formally having something to do with musical responsibilities in heaven. The musical worship leader. This is before he grew in pride towards God, and helped cause Adam and Eve to bring sin and death into existence, leading to Satan being cast out to be the god (what Satan wanted in his pride) of our current world for a relatively short time. If true, we can easily see the corrupted created influence of music (objectively speaking) here in this physical world (as opposed to the unseen spiritual one that he resides in) and what he uses it to create in us, along with indifference towards our Creator with the music that has almost no business being used for anything but myriad praise towards our Creator. Say whatever you want, it's true. We'll all find out soon enough. Only the fool says in his heart, "there is no God." Source: the Bible. Read Luke 21, Matthew 24, and/or Revelation 13. It's happening. Prepare to meet your Maker.
people constantly misunderstand philosophical atheism. There is a huge difference between the concept of god and 14 year old atheism. Sociology of religion is also heavily misunderstood by religious bigots
The key to avoiding both belief and replacement of that belief is to understand meaning as being extrapolated out of our existence rather than found and existing somewhere. You can still find science to be fascinating and a key part of life, while still able to not replace meaning with it. I am reminded of this every time we see new images from something like the JWST (James Webb Space Telescope) as I celebrate the technical and scientific achievement it is and how it pushes our understanding of the universe and our existence, I can also, at the same time, extrapolate a sense and feeling of awe from the beauty it captures, without it being based in religious or scientism. Instead just accepting the wonder for what it is. We can search for answers while still being able to extrapolate meaning from what we already know. And we can find new functioning moral values as soon as we lose our irrational beliefs, including those beliefs that aren't necessarily religious. Someone who's always biased towards some pre-conceived idea will never be able to see the world for what it is and will never be able to extrapolate meaning or understand values beyond what that person has already invented for themselves. The state of unbiased flowing ideas is the ideal constant for stability, while the solid state of rigid biased ideas is the ever shifting variable leading to chaos.
Gpt : Certainly, I can provide you with a list of criticisms against Nietzsche's views on God and his book "God is Dead." Please note that this list will be comprehensive and not necessarily reflective of my personal beliefs or opinions: 1. Nietzsche's claim that "God is Dead" assumes that God was once alive or existed in the first place, which lacks evidence. 2. The concept of God's death implies that there was a time when God was alive and actively involved in human affairs, which is based on theological assumptions rather than empirical evidence. 3. Nietzsche's argument does not consider the possibility that God's existence or non-existence is beyond human comprehension and cannot be definitively proven or disproven. 4. The claim that the decline of religious belief signifies the death of God overlooks the possibility that religious experiences and spirituality can exist independent of organized religion. 5. Nietzsche's assertion fails to consider the diversity of religious beliefs and the existence of multiple conceptions of God, which may not be affected by the decline of specific religious traditions. 6. The argument that the death of God leads to nihilism overlooks the potential for individuals to find meaning and purpose in secular philosophies, ethical systems, or personal beliefs. 7. Nietzsche's belief that the death of God would lead to the collapse of moral values neglects the possibility of moral frameworks based on reason, empathy, and social consensus. 8. The claim that the death of God necessitates the creation of new values and the emergence of the "Ubermensch" overlooks the potential for individuals to find moral guidance and purpose within existing philosophical and ethical systems. 9. Nietzsche's view of God as a projection of human desires and weaknesses neglects the possibility of a transcendent, divine being that exists independently of human perception. 10. The assertion that the death of God leads to the loss of objective truth fails to consider alternative sources of truth, such as empirical evidence, logical reasoning, and scientific inquiry. 11. Nietzsche's argument does not address the potential for religious belief to evolve and adapt to changing social, cultural, and intellectual contexts. 12. The claim that the death of God leads to the dominance of the will to power overlooks the potential for individuals to prioritize cooperation, empathy, and ethical behavior. 13. Nietzsche's view of God as a hindrance to human progress neglects the potential for religious belief to inspire positive social change, moral development, and personal growth. 14. The argument that the death of God leads to the rejection of absolute values fails to consider the possibility of subjective moral frameworks and the existence of shared ethical principles. 15. Nietzsche's claim that the death of God is a necessary step towards human liberation neglects the potential for individuals to find meaning, purpose, and fulfillment within religious traditions. Please note that this list is not exhaustive, but it provides a starting point for further exploration and discussion of Nietzsche's views on God and his book "God is Dead."
If we kill god in finality by setting our own values rather than inheriting them from the divine, do we not just fill the god-shaped hole with ourselves? Do we not just deify ourselves? Remember, the first trait of a hero is humility.
Happy to see Nietzsche making it on YT's frontpage. 150 years went by and Zarathustra has yet to find his hiking boots, let alone finding a mountain to climb on to have a broader view.
People misuse the idea belief, they equate it with trust. Belief is unearned trust. I don't believe in either religion or science, but I do trust science.
Exactly. Nietzsche was so ahead of his time. Once the belief of God is rid from someone that individual must & will replace it with something else. There issue is that the new belief can now also influence u to the point to end up clouded with delusion again by accepting it as objective truth.
You need to remember to distinguish the western (european) idea of God from the rest of the world. Christianity never had any prominent influence on the muslim world and especially eastern cultural hemisphere to the point that the death of God (which is uniquely Christian imo) was never really felt there.
Would you mind explaining why it hasn't influenced Islamic religion? How does the Islamic conception of God differ from that of Christianity? I thought they were both classical theism.
@@jordancrago5129In Islam, God is completely beyond and above humanity, while in Christianity, God and man are reconciled through Jesus Christ. In Islam, God is strictly someone to be obeyed, while in Christianity God is someone you can have a personal relationship with.
I give it 20 years, I don't think we need to look to the edges of the universe to understand God, just understand the mechanisms that birthed it well enough...
What a twist, haha. I wasn’t expecting “finish the job” as the conclusion. As others are pointing out, though, even if we do manage this feat (and as you sort of touched on in the video) while a version of the Christian tradition’s image of God may be died or dying, humans do still have ideals and values. It’s a fundamental and even inescapably pragmatic human tendency to make value judgements. Even if the old supreme value dies, there won’t be a god shaped hole for very long before it’s inevitably filled with another supreme value, whether consciously or unconsciously. Whether we want the Christian God or not, we’re inescapably confronted with the question of which god we do want to orient our values around. Do we want that god to be ourselves (“human flourishing”)? The planet Nature? Technology? What is the most important thing for humans to orient their attention and value systems around? Or is the true death of God a complete obliteration of the concept of making value judgements at all? Or is it simply indifferences about the fact that humans tend to worship gods?
Rick Roderick: “The Death of God” is about the drying up of a horizon of meaning, and of a whole form of human life. And about Nietzsche’s both fear and exhilaration at what might come next. We still to a large extent live in the interregnum between worlds, if you will, or between paradigms. Not many people in the history of the world have faced that
First thanks for the video, love it! I was always more in tune with Spinoza than Friedrich, but respect! Let's say I would try to do as Friedrich enjoins. I would elevate above socially imposed beliefs poised to renew some godhood. Then I would choose my values in a way that would make me closer to my part of humanity and humankind. Then how would this new corpus of values I would adhere to not become a new divine figure for me? Iguess in that it would not demean humans. So humanity and nature are the central point of this new corpus of values, this is getting quite close to Spinoza's definition of God. Am I missing something?
God is dead, so the only way to avoid slipping into total depravity is to either create new gods or become gods ourselves. Sounds like you prefer the former while Nietzsche prefers the latter.
Other things only replace god if we idolize/worship those things. Humans can be non religious(daily habit of exhalting something) and spiritual(acknowledging that there is more than just this physical realm we perceive) at the same time. Humans just need to understand that these god-replacing ideas are only tools that should be used to improve human understanding rather than an alternative to salvation. What we need to study is the reason why humans feel the need to worship something.
But you're still presuming that "increasing human understanding" is valuable in the first place. Did you choose that value for yourself or simply have it inculcated by the society you grew up in?
@@AJX-2it’s natural for Homo sapiens to want to understand the world around them. That’s why we even have religion- past humans made up stories to explain the unexplainable. Now science helps is explain things better, but overall humans are trying to get to the bottom of it if they have the privilege to do so. I didn’t choose this value for myself since it’s natural, but I guess my environment played a role since I’m not a subsistence laborer who doesn’t have the privilege to think past where their next meal is coming from.
@@mjkclem It's natural for human beings to do all kinds of things that I doubt you endorse. The point that Nitezsche is making is that we cannot rely on God or Nature or our enviornment to provide our values for us, we must choose them ourselves.
I do endorse everything that’s natural first of all. And yes part of my value system depends on nature, yet I’m not worshiping trees or doing rain dances. I highly respect science and some of my values come from things that science has proven without a doubt, but it’s just a tool and not something I would “fill a god-shaped hole” with. Yes we need to form our own values, and we already do! What matters is where you source those values from, and religion shouldn’t be one of those sources. And yes, increasing human understanding is valuable, how could you not think so?? I didn’t say “find out why we are here” or “what’s our purpose” but just increasing our knowledge of the world around us to make life more enjoyable for all humans is important. That’s literally what technology/invention is.
All I heard was "We desperately need the social sciences to take their rightful place in society before we invent another imaginary friend for emotional support."
I sought value and meaning outside of religion for 27 years, and it's a never ending search. God called me back after all that time, and I can tell you he's not dead. Nietzsche was indeed very wise to notice that science ultimately just describes, it doesn't explain. I remain as much a fan of science as I have always been, but it can never give you meaning. Actually, the deeper you go into it, I think you're just more and more mesmerized and amazed by the perfection of God's design. It's funny how those who worship science will now just come up with stuff like "we live in a simulation" or "this universe is just one of many" and fail to notice what they're doing there, indeed, blind to their own theologically oriented thought... However, Nietzsche also got it wrong: looking to God is not a negation of humanity. We are made in God's image, and through our relationship with God, we acheive our best possible life both on this earth and what comes next. That's what living a holy life is about, that's what becoming a saint is... bringing the kindgom of God to earth. That's why faith without works is dead. Pretty sure I won't be converting anyone with this comment, but, you know, just thought I'd give the perspective of someone who loves science and philosophy and converted to Catholicism at his 27 years of age (I'm 29 now)... God bless you all.
The meaning of life is to propagate. Not because we have the facility to do so, but because life is synonymous with only one other phenomenon in the universe that can explain life's existence. That phenomenon is a chain-reaction. A self-perpetuating series of specific events that facilitates its own propagation. Once a chain-reaction has started, it operates outside the natural laws that surround it, and even though it itself is a natural phenomenon, it stands out from its environment. as it changes the nature of its surroundings to accommodate further propagation. Life can always be recognized as that which does not conform to its surroundings. Just as a swimming microbe can be identified against a backdrop of floating particles. Life is made complex by interacting with itself, like standing waves interacting with their own reflections bouncing off other objects. These interactions create complex patterns and designs that seem so beyond randomness, that they are beautiful, and we want them to be intentional. Divinity is a convenient box to put things in so that we can own them. Our ability to assimilate information and use it to predict the future, is a mutation that has made us the dominant species and allowed us to multiply as we have. It is also the attribute however, that attracts us to these complex patterns like moths to a flame. Our fascination with them enslaves us and keeps us gazing at them. But it’s a distraction, one that keeps us from asking a much simpler question, which is, what is the sense of purpose, and why do have it? Why do we have a longing to belong? Why does it always feel like there is a hole with a piece missing. One that we need to fill, and one that needs to be filled by us. What attracts us to filling that hole, and what would we be if we did not have a sense to fill it? What if we simply did not care to fill any holes? Well, that might be the end of us. For, if the sense of purpose is what guides a mindless neanderthal to fill a hole, with a thing that looks like it goes in the hole, then a sense of purpose could be the only thing keeping this whole chain-reaction going.
the problem isn't the atheist critiquing christianity or the christian critiquing atheism the actual problem is when an atheist or christian refuses to criticize themselves or what they believe in or don't
The FSM meme isn't about how "God" or "FSM" is silly. It may have morphed into that, but the original idea was about proof. There is no more proof of one than of the other. It's an update of Russell's "teapot".
Now, I am Christian (obligatory disclaimer achieved), I don't believe in God because of some promise of Heaven or something like that although I believe in a new life after this one, I believe based on various life experiences, lots of historical research, and maybe, just maybe a little bit of what people call "blind faith". I'm not here to argue my beliefs though but rather I just want to comment on what I perceive to be a huge problem in both atheism and theism, the idea that believing in God somehow makes you a "good person" when in reality that's hardly true, not just biblically but in our daily lives. I've read a post somewhere about a waiter in, like, a Waffle House or something who said that the Sunday after church crowd are some of the rudest, most entitled people they've ever seen! It's a critique that a lot of hard-core atheists like to bring up, a Christian's tendency to have a "Holier than thou" attitude as though their belief in God makes them somehow better than everyone else. I've heard people say that their main reason for not believing in Christianity is because of the attitudes of the people within it. It's sad and frustrating to see so many people who are taught to "love thy neighbor" doing basically the exact opposite. I think that's what happens when your belief system is solely based on the promise of an afterlife in paradise. Another thing is I don't see humanity "Killing God" any time soon, I live in the south, Kentucky to be precise, and there's a lot of.... conservatism here. A lot of backwards ideologies run rampant including racism and homophobia which, again, negates the whole "love thy neighbor" thing. Aside from that I believe that the "God-shaped hole" is evident in our very nature as human beings and our seemingly hard-wired desire to find purpose. I've found that everyone, EVERYONE has an opinion about purpose, and if you ask them, nearly everyone will gladly go on a whole rant about why they believe or don't believe in this and that and whatever. Many people who don't believe that the universe has any sort of real purpose are never born like that but rather come to that conclusion later in their lives. Many could argue that it's simply because they've been told to believe in God since early childhood and then later come to the conclusion that that's all just nonsense but in recent years more and more people are being born into Atheistic households and yet the pursuit of "purpose" still lingers in their minds somewhere, even if later in their lives they decide that it's pointless to try and find said purpose, the desire to do so had to be pushed aside at one point or another. Even if I wasn't Christian I'd still find this absolutely fascinating. Maybe it's just an evolutionary means of survival that we try to find purpose in things, why we as a human race are so fascinated by the universe, science, and generally just trying to figure out how everything works and why it works the way it does. But we've never really figured out the "Why" part. Why, for instance, do two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen make water instead of something else and why is it so consistent? A belief in God certainly seems like an easy answer. It's as though it was simply "programmed" to do so. But let's say there is no "programmer", does that mean there is no "Why"? That that's just kind of the way it is? If we assume there is a God, is there a "Why" to him? It seems to me that no matter how you look at it, eventually you'll come to the conclusion that some things are just arbitrary, but then again, maybe I'm wrong. In fact, I've found that, due to our limited squishy gray-matter tucked away nicely within our skulls, it's likely that we're wrong about just about everything. Anyone who's familiar with Darwin's doubt will know what I'm talking about (if not, look it up, it's super interesting). I don't really have a point here, I'm just spouting random philosophical nonsense that I think about a lot. I suppose if I have any conclusion to make here it's that the universe is so massive and complicated and we as humans are fascinated by it on a genetic level. Regardless, no matter what you believe or don't believe in I think it's better if we come together to discuss and share ideas rather than argue about them. It's frustrating to me to see the echo chambers of the internet go at each other's throats over things none of us really truly understand. It's even worse when it becomes real-life drama. Just.... try not to be a dick, that's all.
I describe myself as a syntheist; I prefer to say "god is made up" rather than, "god doesn't exist." For myself, I find that looking at gods as human creations is far more productive and empathetic than asserting that they don't exist at all.
When Michael says "God bless" at the end, it's with strange irony that the shadow of God still exists. It's kind of the same when atheists exclaim Jesus Christ. Btw, I have that Plumb CD. Haven't thought about it for ages. While people do have problems with the God Shaped Hole, it also seems fairly Augustinian. The restless soul is searching.
The way everyone thinks "God is dead" is everything they need to know about what Nietzsche had to say, and then proceed to read in their own smart-boy interpretations, reminds me of the similar take on Marx's usually misquoted "religion is the opiate of the masses" - ripping it out of its context ("Religious suffering is at one and the same time the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."). Marx also wrote in a letter to a friend that "there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogey man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people.".
"God is dead. God remains dead! And we have killed him! How can we console ourselves, the murderers of all murderers! The holiest and the mightiest thing the world has ever possessed has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood from us?"
I have complex feelings on this that I can’t completely explain here. But, Nietzsche is hard for me. I agree with a lot of what he say’s especially when talking about Christians carrying more about the afterlife than this life. I am religious though and a lot of my favorite theologians specifically talk about that. That the most important thing about religion is how it affects your life now. Sometimes it feels like Nietzchsche doesn’t consider that side of it
True, we acknowledge this earth and world as God's own created garden and motherland, yet it is more or less flawed or marred (by us or by the Enemy). We must balance both our temporal and spiritual pursuit. All we did here still matter, God will be the Judge of that. There's even a biblical warning about a kind of heresy which says you can do whatever you want wasting your material life because of the ensured spiritual salvation.
What constitutes knowledge; how does one acquire it; what degree of confidence can be justified in our assertions? On one side stands religion ("faith,") on the other side, everything else. Pretty much.
We're all pretty sure we're gonna die, and most of us would like to feel like we're spending our alotted time wisely, or at least blamelessly. That's where the real friction comes in when you kill religion. I myself use the "I'll find out when I get there" cop out. I don't figure any current human religion has the correct answer and science frankly can't ask the right questions, so I'm stuck following my heart, doing what I think is right and being prepared to demand answers if I ever find myself before my creator. I also realize that it's just my own way of whistling past the graveyard, but I figure everyone needs something to deflect existential dread, as long as your way doesn't interfere with mine it's none of my business.
Hes saying that everyone who used gods name in vain need to recon with their inherent sin. The future is brighter without their idea and he was born too soon.
Even with all this talk of holiness I really wasn't expecting the line "Nietzsche wants to destroy your hole"
That line was the most action I've gotten in a while
It's great because I never really thought of it that way before: i.e. it's not enough to get rid of "God", we also have to get rid of that "God-shaped hole" rather than try to fill it with something else.
It's all about self-empowerment and understanding, than relying on some outside thing or force. Brilliant.
Fast forward a few minutes and Nietzsche is quoted in saying he came too early so I guess he didn't get to finish destroying your hole.
Im the 69th like, just saying 😂
"ja Fredrich, zerstöre mein Loch! mach eine riesen Sauerei daraus!"
The original quote is: "God is dead, and we have killed him" it was a satirical story as a critique of modernism and the death of mystery.
It also speaks to the growth of ethics and philosophy beyond it roots in the Christian and how that effects modernity.
I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of modernism and a leading to the necessity of post modernism. The more I read Zarathustra the more I feel that Nietzsche's understanding of society transitioning away from modernism was absolutely brilliant. He seemed to just despise dogma and in general grand narratives and truly believe in the capability of the individual to exalt themselves above the world around them to their own excellence.
I feel like all three of these points capture what he meant both intrinsically and extrinsically...
"A satirical story" best describes Thus Spoke Zarathustra, where the phrase also appears. The Gay Science was a collection of aphorisms first published earlier; but both were republished a few times in an overlapping period, with significant changes.
No, it isn't. The original quote is "Gott ist tot! Gott bleibt tot! Und wir haben ihn getötet!". You forgot the middle part, "God remains dead".
I'd heard of the Gay Agenda, but I can't believe this is the first I'm hearing of The Gay Science. Boy, have I still got a lot to learn.
Wait until you get to Gay Math
Have you heard of the Gay Republicans? (Basically all of them)
@@SpoopySquid doesn't exist. Gays (bottoms) can't do math.
I am german and I was listening to "do not go gentle into that good night" a poem by Dylan Thomas and I was incredibly confused when when it said "blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay" but I guess now I know that it also means "joyful". they don't teach us that in english class
Spend more time in bookstores and libraries
I've said this for years that people get Nietzsche wrong. Excellent job.
Absolutely. And it’s funny because my 14-18 year old self who basically carried around Thus Spake Zarathustra like a Bible, I totally misunderstood some fundamental aspects of Nietzsche’s philosophy.
Exactly. People say he promoted/founded nihilism and I'm like... no, no he didn't. He RAILED against it.
People get Nietzsche wrong? No - how could that be?
@@gavinmatthewlyall Don't get me started on how according to some people 'nihilism is when Zack Snyder is edgy and brooding'...
@@onemoreminute0543 My favorite version of "nihilism" is from The Big Lebowski
"I have come to destroy your holes."
-Nietzsche
(This might not be exactly how he phrased it.)
Personally, I just want people to take responsibility. No more allowing God to be used an excuse. There is no divine justice or forgiveness, no ordained ethics, and if we want them we must enact them ourselves now. Nobody will work on us for us. That's for us to do as a part of our own life's journey of struggles and lessons.
Yes! Exactly that. Great point.
Each morally bankrupt person needs either god or a dictator to take the responsibility over his/her own actions.
To think God is an excuse when he holds the title of Judge and will execute judgement on everyone who has ever lived for what they’ve done is this life is a severe oversight of who God is.
Yeah, I honestly find myself pitying those who seemingly *must* have some deific metaphysical police state underpinning their actions. Why do they need the carrot of divinely-provided paradise and the stick of divine retribution like hell and the like as motivations to do good and eschew doing harm? Forgive my Neutral Good tendencies, but is it truly so hard to chose to good for good's own sake, without some distant divine incentive (much less some personal gain like social standing or a favour owed)? They fear being unmoored, but... why are their seas so stormy?
I think Nietzsche's words that most resonate with me are about being poets of our own lives. So many people equate Nietzsche's work with pessimist cynicism associated with nihilism when his philosophy tends to be much more inspiring. To not live empty lives when faced with religious or idealistic failings or absences, but to embrace the beauty in life's even most mundane aspects.
Yes, I think of him as primarily an aphorist, like the gospel character of Jesus, but addressing those of us who are dealing with our apparent lack of meaning in the Grand Scheme of Things... as if religion had ever given us such a sense of meaning.
he would later go mad and die in an insane asylum. gods not dead and his shadow killed nietzche.
awesome retort, my guy@@thenightwatchman1598
@thenightwatchman1598 can you imagine how mentally exerting it must have been at that point in history to conceive these ideas and actually say them out loud? 😂
Can someone clarify further what he meant by " finishing the job"? Because it seems like the recommendation is to fill the god shaped hole with something else, or get rid of it completely, but it was never mentioned what that alternative reality looks like. It's like the entire video is dancing around the idea of an alternative to capitalism, but fails to imagine what that world looks like (and yes I am referring to that quote where it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end to capitalism).
Lol! I'm a priest, and the algorithm suggested this to me on a Sunday morning! 🤣 (I have a lot of time for Niche, BTW, he has some excellent clarifying critique that could help to make the cultural phenomenon of Christianity more in line with a compassionate suffering creator/saviour. 😊👍)
Yeah. I think a lot of the anger that is displayed from us atheists comes less from the idea of religions, and more from the shit that we and others are put through in the name of gods who we don’t think we exist, ESPECIALLY when the those things conflict with core principles espoused by said religious groups. It often gets unloaded on people who don’t deserve it, as well as to degrees and in ways that are unwarranted and/or unproductive. For those who do follow religions in a benign manner though, keep it up 👍
@johnmirlescearcy4980 Thanks! imho, I hope I don't follow Christ in a benign manner. Just a confident manner. People who start clutching their pearls because atheism exists and Nietzsche writes the words "God is Dead" and don't even bother to find out what his point was don't strike me as people who had much faith in the transformative power of Christ in the first place. They probably had their faith intricately tied up with all the minutiae of their context and culture, so the slightest thing that might disturb that is threatening to them. And I think that's why they get triggered by so-called culture wars when, Christianity at least, is much more interested in class war and providing radical care for the most vulnerable whilst flattening the systems of oppression. When it comes to people who hold delicately to a cultural Christianity that they don't understand (because of patriotism or whatever), I always think of a Bill Hicks bit: he did his bit about how Jesus probably wouldn't want to see cross necklaces when he returns and then says, "I told that one time and three guys came up at the end and said 'hey buddy, we're Christians and we didn't like what you said'; so I said, 'so forgive me'". Gets me every time! 🤣
Nietzsche being a madman running around the square:
"IM LOOKING FOR THE UBERMENSCH! IM LOOKING FOR THE UBERMENSCH!"
Precisely. The Ubermensch is dead, and we have killed him.
And who was the Ubermensch? The shadow of God.
For the last time: science doesn't have all the answers, but the answers it gives are solid.
Solid for now.. till evidence proves otherwise.
How can it be solid, if there is no foundation that animates it?
Good science yes, but what we call “science” gives awful shaky answers because it isn’t actually performed as science is supposed to be.
Hilarious timing on this video. I’m literally on set filming behind-the-scenes video on the movie God’s Not Dead 5 right now…
I really hope this is real and if so I have so many questions.
Wait there's been 4 of them?
@@SpoopySquid Just googled it. For fecks sake: it be true! 🤣🤣🤣
@@SpoopySquid Yes, the 5th one is called "Rise Up"
GND 3 actually wasn't entirely terrible, but the others suck
I’m so stressed for you
I've come to make sure Michael isn't fading out of existence again.
God was trying to erase him.
Gotta admit, I did smash that like button after being informed it was worth a prayer.
Bless you.
If 1 Like = 1 Prayer, then what is 1 Thought?
You can't have Prayers without Thoughts!
@@HylianFox3 it is "thoughts and prayers" after all
@@HylianFox3dude literally says "Leave your thoughts in the comments below" every video. He's been playing the long game.
7:56 Nietzsche wants to destroy your hole. Perfect Michael 😂😂😂😂😂
Safety First: Always use a condom, and especially with Nietzsche!
I haven't seen seventeen in forty years, my animosity to religion has nothing to do with philosophy. I find that the inability to engage in critical thinking in many cases have a direct link to lifelong acceptance of religion.
Oh, if only a religion such as Christianity rejected critical thinking, then there wouldn't be SO MANY different denominations, sects, and theological debates between groups.
What, do you think that Christianity is just some monolithic religion that hasn't had dozens of councils and debates within? Were councils like Nicaea and Chalcedon just held for shits and giggles? Was the Reformation just a troll, not an attempt to critically engage with the corrupt nature of the Catholic church? Was someone like Aquinas inflexible and unwilling to engage with non-Christian texts?
And that's just in Christianity. Don't get me started on the different sects and theological understandings in the likes of Judaism and Islam...
But have you engaged in critical thinking about your rejection of it? About the pervasiveness of "supreme being" thinking in society and how it's affected you? Are you sure you didn't swap one idea for another? You saying it's animosity makes me wonder.
I grew up in upper middle class suburbia and the vast majority of people were atheist. I don’t think I’ve met more than 10 people in my whole life who can actually think critically. It’s extremely rare even at my school which was one of the wealthiest and best scoring in the state. I don’t think it is a problem with religion, it’s a problem with our species as a whole.
@@lysanamcmillan7972you are just another example of the casual smugness everyone feels entitled to treat atheists with
most of us have actually given all that plenty of thought, yes even the new atheist movement did
That was a good listen, I didn't consider the "finish the job" kind of mentality in finding new ways and meanings when it comes to existing after the idea of Gods. We tore god out of us and now we're infected.
It helps explain the types of people who are a bit rampant in their view of "how can you go without hurting people without god." I think they do help show how we haven't done our due diligence to really enshrine humane yet secular ethics in our existence.
Thank you for this.
That is because secular ethics, put bluntly, have failed. Be it effective altruism, the myriad failed attempts to establish a universal categorical imperative, the attempts to ground secular virtue ethics, utilitarianism, etc. They all either end with repugnant conclusions or collapse into hedonism/nihilism (depending on the failings of the particular system). Secular moral philosophy has a LONG way to go before it wins any sort of societal trust (which is an implicit requirement of any successful ethical system).
@@flyingphoenix113frankly I don’t think you can successfully justify the internal enforcement of an ethics system without belief in an absolute standard of morality (ie, a diety/metaphysical entity). It seems to me the premise of morality is part and parcel to the concept of divinity in our mythological consciousness/linguistics. Can we justify an ethics system which functions well enough to run a society, but we can’t trust people when our back is turned? I think we’re testing that hypothesis now. Is it working out for us? Don’t know yet. But I’m thinking something will have to give eventually haha
Yet Finland is doing much better than Mississippi or Uganda
Well some of us have done exactly that. Humanists.
@@flyingphoenix113I disagree. Watch the Shelly Kagan versus William Lane Craig debate.
I haven't read very much of Nietzsche, but this really proposed some interesting ideas to me. Leaving the evangelical church had social, political, and even economic consequences for me. I lost many friends, my job (gotten through the social connections of* the church) became less stable, and as my values abandoned conservatism I shifted dramatically left. The creation of the "god shaped hole" wasn't purely a mental construct, but also a materially consequential aspect of my life at the time. This is the first time I've heard an espousal of the idea that "killing god" must be an inherently nurturing act in relation to the human spirit, rather than a violent act of oppressed in relation to the oppressor. Cheers!
Hope you're doing okay man
I can relate to this so much! The God shaped hole is real and in as much as this video refers to a sort of collective filling of it, learning how to actually do that in your personal life is so different and really hard? Lol
Hey Michael, check out (if you can) John Caputo’s chapter in Zizek’s book “Hegel and the Infinite: Religion, Politics, and Dialectic.” I find this piece directly addresses the consequences of the death of god and is one of the few articles that has truly inspired me/overwhelmed me with emotion. I hope it gives you inspiration for a follow up to this video!
Thanks for the rec! I've enjoyed some of Caputo's work in the past so will check it out.
Spends 20 minutes talking about the death of God. Ends video with "God bless."
Where was this video 13yrs ago? Awesome vid as usual. Its still revelatory to me that people were using an unfinished quote that, “God is dead…” They always used it in with passion instead of neutrality.
"I don't believe in God, but I am not an atheist" - Albert Camus
Absurdism is the best
Albert Camus, the original Joker
A methodist I see
Wait till you hear what he thought about Algerian liberation and justice
What if god has poor self esteem and doesn't believe in himself either?
This reminds me about how a person with an addictive personality will ditch cigs to start drinking and stop drinking to start coping with food-in all honesty I am a hardcore atheist who struggles communicating with religious individuals about religion bc I few it as the Flying Spaghetti Monster idea-and as a side note I have read Nizches full God’s Not Dead but goddammit it never clicked until you brought up the Q Anon analogy and now I need to think a bit more thoughtfully about it I think- good job Wisecrack! You always help communicate these old big ideas in a way I can better understand and appreciate :)
G-damn it, I'm pretty sure I know what you mean B-cause i think i agree
Every time I hear Gods not dead, I picture an angel finding god dead, and trying to cover it up with a few of his friends, weekend at Bernie’s style.
That's actually a pretty good metaphor for the current state of religion
I think you misspoke. Nietzsche published "The Gay Science" in 1882, not 1822 (before he was born lol) where I think first used the line.
oh god . . .
@@WisecrackEDU -- Yeah that's important to fix. You may also really want to dive into his relationship with his father, a clergyman, and his early death as well. Nietzsche was really deeply affected by it, and his numerous train treks through the country also played a role. His linguistics work also played major role, as few men a live at the time were as deeply invested in the language of language as he was, which is grossly overshadowed by the philosophy rants.
@@WisecrackEDU It was a good video though. He is one of the most enigmatic philosophers which is partly what makes him so fascinating. He also is the philosopher of religious deconstruction (not to be confused with Derrida) which also makes him interesting, and that is also why read (half) his Will to Power as independent reading for fun.
"This video is sponsored by better help, the company that sells your private data when you are in a vulnerable situation" FTFY
Weren't they involved in a scandal where the therapists weren't real therapists?
"God's in the details", right? (what a detail!)
Im just gonna say it: Michael is the Best 🎉🎉🎉🎉
He has the new dad energy.
He can conquer the world if he wants
@@mitchconner403Self aware and philosophically savvy Dad energy
"By the time I was getting ready to graduate from high school in 1966, _Time_ magazine, of all publications, caused me to reevaluate my tenuous belief system with one splashy and provocative headline. Written in large red block letters on a stark black background, a headline in the magazine posed the following question: IS GOD DEAD?
What the hell! The Yahweh I had been introduced to was supposed to be immortal.
But maybe the editors of _Time_ were on to something. One must remember the times we were living in. In the late fifties and the early sixties, the country seemed to be living on the brink of nuclear holocaust. Those were simpler times, and America had only one real enemy, the Soviet Union. The Soviets had tons of nukes aimed at us and we had tons of nukes aimed at them. Many people in this country spent their weekends building and outfitting bomb shelters in their backyards just in case the Commies dropped the big one on us. In retrospect, it was more than a little ridiculous. (And it became the basis of one of my favorite movies, _Dr. Strangelove.)_
These were the conditions that led many to feel that God must be dead. (Or maybe he just had a great sense of humor. Nothing creates great comedy like tension.) In the year leading up to the headline, we were inundated with even more bad news. The war in Vietnam was escalating with breathtaking speed, hellish images of civil rights workers being beaten in the South filled our TV screens, and the assassination of black activist Malcolm X, tragically and ironically, kicked off 1966’s National Brotherhood Week.
With all of that going on, why not a dead God? In fact, a better headline might have been DID WE KILL GOD?
Let’s face it, if God was, in fact, dead, he did not expire naturally. Just as Christians are told that Jesus died for their sins, God obviously suffered his fatal collapse under the weight of America’s collective, misguided savagery.
Either way, I remember thinking at the time, even if I don’t believe in him, a dead God isn’t good news."
- Lewis Black, _Me of Little Faith_
This was really thought provoking. I’d considered the idea of God being replaced by celebrity, media, etc, but not the idea that it had to be killed and the process completed, lest the cycle repeat endlessly.
I think you summarized it better than wisecrack did. I was disappointed in this video. I don't think the point came across clearly clearly. And I think he's putting too much undue burden on atheists, like it's their job to figure everything out. In reality it's everyone's job to figure out the truth.
Friedrich did also more or less predict totalitarianism, where god would only compete with the tyrant over political power.
Can someone clarify further what he meant by " finishing the job"? Because it seems like the recommendation is to fill the god shaped hole with something else, or get rid of it completely, but it was never mentioned what that alternative reality looks like. It's like the entire video is dancing around the idea of an alternative to capitalism, but fails to imagine what that world looks like (and yes I am referring to that quote where it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end to capitalism).
It is strange that Atheism is categorized the same way as something like Christians. It is actually better categorized above theism. Like you wouldn't categorize non-stamp collectors and collectors of American stamps at the same level, and you wouldn't categorize all non-stamp collectors on the same level as stamp collectors. Theism is belief in a ideology which contains one or more god like beings. Like you could have a category of sandwiches which contain pickles. A god is one part of the ideology as their reason for claiming they are right. Why do people group every possible ideology that could exist which does not contain the specific feature of godlike beings the same way they group a specific religion like Christianity? There are even some people group it the same as a sect of Christianity like Catholics, which seems ignorant to me.
Thank you so much for crediting the clips you use. There have been a number of times where I can't recall where I've seen a thing, or I know it from somewhere, but haven't seen the source material and want to.
The Dangerous Livies of Altar Boys though. Who's the QC person for these things? (My job is QC and now I can't unsee stuff like that)
I think there's a new God's Not Dead movie that you haven't done a video about yet. Can we get that as a Christmas present?
I think this is a good idea.
I can’t believe that Neitzche would be misunderstood and taken out of context, next are you going to tell me that there are people who completely missed the point of Machiavelli ❤❤❤
What was the point of Machiavelli then?
@@FavianShieldshe was being sarcastic when he wrote The Prince, for one thing.
@@FavianShields if not sarcastic, he was saying, "This is how it is done these days. I am not saying it's right or noble. I'm warning you it's a freaking combat zone."
I take the phrase "god is dead" less as a proclamation of victory, and more like a call to responsibility. If god is dead, then it falls to humans to keep humanity alive. Like a child growing up only to bury their own parents, and will in turn be buried by their children.
If you wanna take it to the logical conclussion, I'm basically saying Therapy is a replacement for Religion, but that doesn't mean something else won't eventually replace therapy.
Nietzsche definitely didn't mean "God is dead" to be a proclamation of victory.
That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent?
He's mourning the death of God and crying out for some way to make it right.
Nietzsche definitely didn't mean "God is dead" to be a proclamation of victory.
That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent?
He's mourning the death of God and crying out for some way to make it right.
People go to therapy more often than ever, yet people are less happy than ever.
@@trey1531 Therapy serves the exact same purpose as religion, except it's even more comprehensive and inclusive. People are unhappy because of how corporations and governments conduct themselves and intrude on people's lives.
@@Kazuma11290That’s complete nonsense, the two are opposites really. Religion provides answers, therapy provides questions. Religion has commandments and therapy demands of you to live according to your own commandments. They really don’t serve the same purpose at all, but they do both inspire similar cultish reverence by people like you…
8:59 Nietzsche was not a No Nut November enjoyer.
This was one of your best “reactions”. Thank you for this philosophical insight! This is definitely post-grad understanding. Cheers!
Interesting point about the link between Bill maher, Jordan Peterson, and using their beliefs as a scapegoat for prejudice. Ironically. the latter was on the former's podcast.
People have been using religious beliefs to justify shitty behavior for millennia.
"My God says you suck and don't deserve to live" is a powerful motivator...
@@HylianFox3and people use science for the same reason.
That God Shaped Hole bit gave me whiplash with how quickly I transported to childhood
Good movie though
I love how everyone forgets the rest of that quote; god is dead and we have killed him. We,the humans who invented gods in the first place. If we can create a thing, then we can destroy that thing.
Awesome video! Thank you so much for all your work.
I have 2 thoughts on the topic:
1. I always feel like the issue with modern atheism is not only this god-shaped hole, but also the neglect of the history of religions. Surely, nothing good can come of it since the premise is all wrong. But that both dismisses the origin of religions, a sense of meaningfulness and purpose in a complex world, as well as any accomplishments made in the name of religion along the way. I at least imagine that I can sense that in today's capitalistic system. Very often, any bit of christian morality is eschewed because of the whiff of religion for a "better" measure of numbers over everything, completely forgetting that those numbers were made by people and are often taken on faith.
2. 17:30 I think this is an extremely idealized version of the fight between theism and atheism. I feel like, on average, humans are not that rational or malleable. It does not matter if the new and improved Nietzsche-atheism is more logically and ideologically grounded. Religion exists for a reason. Humans want to believe in stuff. So it's gonna be really hard to continually convince them of the superiority of this Nietzsche-atheism. So I don't think this fight is won by improving atheism or if it even needs to be won since, in the end, the motivation behind becoming a morally upstanding and healthy individual kind of does not matter.
That being said, it's obviously extremely important to know about these glitches in our perception and thinking.
My favorite band is Bad Religion and they have made a DVD of their earliest shows (early 80s I think). They explain what "bad religion" means and I think they must have read Nietzsche because, despite their logo being the cross buster, they say it isn't about being anti-religion it's about being anti-thought that can replace religion.
American Jesus is an amazing song
I just had this conversation with someone over Christian nationalist. Someone tried to dismiss them because they are contradictory with in our political system but I tried to explain that assuming the common follower of the ideology is understandable because so many are secular and have not created a sound moral and ethical system which creates many different problems like aligning our selves with the ideals of consumption, capital and presentations in the media rather more of aligning our selves with an altruistic, forgiving powerful, and knowledgeable ideal. They want more people to have a moral foundational basis but I think it's just simply that it is theirs not one based on ethics, reason, and self exploration.
Interestingly enough those things are undervalued and cut from our schools focusing more on hard skills and jobs skills rather then being moral ethical and informed civic body.
I think they recognizd and concerned about a reasonable problem but aren't not trying to solve it in a good way.
That's all assuming that they aren't not trying to use religion and moral high ground for power grabs and discretion lol, which is likely
They are not not trying? What are you even saying?
They are religious, ie crazy or pretending to be crazy. They want money and power. That is all.
@@michaelfinlay6341 the followers I just think have a small world view and are being taken advantage of for it. The lack of moral and ethical education IS an issue and threat to society because of things like Christian nationalist.
The higher ups on the other hand know that their fallowrs have a smaller world and they can take advantage of their fear. So the higher ups keep them in that fearful state
It's like any other cult to foster and exploit underdeveloped people for political, economic or social gain. It's just in an interesting spot in our society
I didn't expect a Dogma Reference, but I love that you went there.
This is a video that structures my journey over the last 9 years. I was the "17 yr old atheist" at 23. My parents are both ordained ministers in Christianity. I spent so long bitter and quoted this work so much without actually understanding that my actions are equally on trial. I've grown and changed to not become so militant. This video is an amazing deconstruction of those beliefs I held so tightly as a new atheist. I would love to show this to my family, but because of my rejection of their beliefs, they will see Michael's cheeky jokes as attacks. Them seeing it that way is my fualt. Great video, as always.
Why are you an atheist? If you or anyone were to objectively read and understand the hurtling projection of humanity in comparison to God's word to us, you would see this world and it's inhabitants are in for a rude awakening very soon. Source: The Bible... specifically Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Revelation 13. Everyone must understand that we all have spiritual enemies, along with our sinful flesh that are against us and have but one goal in mind... the annihilation of our souls. We'll all find out the reality of our existence very soon. Heed God's word or don't. There will be incredible reward or severe consequences. If you happen to end up exercising your faith in the living God of the Bible... remember this, follow Acts 2:38 to a T, including baptism in the name of Jesus, and the other thing being that Jesus is NOT God. He's a man like you and me, but he is highly exalted because of his loving acts of which God brought him into existence for, most of which being his self sacrifice, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father.
Thank you. As a Christian, I feel like his work is very misunderstood but incredibly valuable to believers and non believers alike. I've always seen his writings as an observation on the effect of a lack of faith on a people, or rather .. pointing out that people do need purpose, meaning, and we'll seek it out anywhere which leads to problems. Our world , even in his time I think, seems to be determined to belittle the humans deeper needs because.. hey, peasant, get back to work. There's no time for any of that fluffy self improvement or nurturing the soul/psyche stuff. And it's all but impossible to talk to other Christians about him without them acting like i just kicked a puppy lol.
My new value in life is to keep watching and enjoying Wisecrack videos on philosophy. I hope Nietzsche is proud of me...for real though I love this channel ;D
"Do you have a god-shaped hole?" Not yet, but I'm hoping one day.
Thank you for putting Kurt Metzger on. He deserves the screen time
I feel like Neitzche would been pretty down with Neil Gaiman’s “American Gods”
I'm Catholic, and I've been reading Nietzsche since last year. Some people on my Catholic side have been telling me that, if I read The Gay Science, I would apostatize. To be perfectly honest, I've read it, and also Thus Spoke Zarathustra and The Anti-Christ, and I became even more Christian. With a more dynamic approach on my faith.
The only way a person has a god-shaped hole in their heart is if god is shoved into them at an early age and their heart grows around it.
I deeply fear anyone that reads Nietzsche as a nihilistic atheist.
money is the new god...
god is subjective.
(your) God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there
-NIN
This is Satan creating apathy in us. The bible says that at judgment there will be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth for those deemed not worthy of eternal life. Apathy towards our Creator and what hinges on his decision of our final eternal resting place is a hopeful result in us of Satan. The Bible points to Satan formally having something to do with musical responsibilities in heaven. The musical worship leader. This is before he grew in pride towards God, and helped cause Adam and Eve to bring sin and death into existence, leading to Satan being cast out to be the god (what Satan wanted in his pride) of our current world for a relatively short time. If true, we can easily see the corrupted created influence of music (objectively speaking) here in this physical world (as opposed to the unseen spiritual one that he resides in) and what he uses it to create in us, along with indifference towards our Creator with the music that has almost no business being used for anything but myriad praise towards our Creator. Say whatever you want, it's true. We'll all find out soon enough. Only the fool says in his heart, "there is no God." Source: the Bible. Read Luke 21, Matthew 24, and/or Revelation 13. It's happening. Prepare to meet your Maker.
“Nietzsche wants to destroy your hole.” 😂😂😂
Yeah, destroy your soul.
That's what we said.
@@WisecrackEDU you gotta pay the troll toll to get to Nietzsche’s hole.
people constantly misunderstand philosophical atheism. There is a huge difference between the concept of god and 14 year old atheism. Sociology of religion is also heavily misunderstood by religious bigots
"Parasocial Heaven"
You come up with the greatest band names.
The key to avoiding both belief and replacement of that belief is to understand meaning as being extrapolated out of our existence rather than found and existing somewhere. You can still find science to be fascinating and a key part of life, while still able to not replace meaning with it. I am reminded of this every time we see new images from something like the JWST (James Webb Space Telescope) as I celebrate the technical and scientific achievement it is and how it pushes our understanding of the universe and our existence, I can also, at the same time, extrapolate a sense and feeling of awe from the beauty it captures, without it being based in religious or scientism. Instead just accepting the wonder for what it is. We can search for answers while still being able to extrapolate meaning from what we already know. And we can find new functioning moral values as soon as we lose our irrational beliefs, including those beliefs that aren't necessarily religious. Someone who's always biased towards some pre-conceived idea will never be able to see the world for what it is and will never be able to extrapolate meaning or understand values beyond what that person has already invented for themselves. The state of unbiased flowing ideas is the ideal constant for stability, while the solid state of rigid biased ideas is the ever shifting variable leading to chaos.
"yesterday richard dawkins is todays jordan peterson"
so true, never understand why he's so trendy among new atheist of 2000's
Gpt : Certainly, I can provide you with a list of criticisms against Nietzsche's views on God and his book "God is Dead." Please note that this list will be comprehensive and not necessarily reflective of my personal beliefs or opinions:
1. Nietzsche's claim that "God is Dead" assumes that God was once alive or existed in the first place, which lacks evidence.
2. The concept of God's death implies that there was a time when God was alive and actively involved in human affairs, which is based on theological assumptions rather than empirical evidence.
3. Nietzsche's argument does not consider the possibility that God's existence or non-existence is beyond human comprehension and cannot be definitively proven or disproven.
4. The claim that the decline of religious belief signifies the death of God overlooks the possibility that religious experiences and spirituality can exist independent of organized religion.
5. Nietzsche's assertion fails to consider the diversity of religious beliefs and the existence of multiple conceptions of God, which may not be affected by the decline of specific religious traditions.
6. The argument that the death of God leads to nihilism overlooks the potential for individuals to find meaning and purpose in secular philosophies, ethical systems, or personal beliefs.
7. Nietzsche's belief that the death of God would lead to the collapse of moral values neglects the possibility of moral frameworks based on reason, empathy, and social consensus.
8. The claim that the death of God necessitates the creation of new values and the emergence of the "Ubermensch" overlooks the potential for individuals to find moral guidance and purpose within existing philosophical and ethical systems.
9. Nietzsche's view of God as a projection of human desires and weaknesses neglects the possibility of a transcendent, divine being that exists independently of human perception.
10. The assertion that the death of God leads to the loss of objective truth fails to consider alternative sources of truth, such as empirical evidence, logical reasoning, and scientific inquiry.
11. Nietzsche's argument does not address the potential for religious belief to evolve and adapt to changing social, cultural, and intellectual contexts.
12. The claim that the death of God leads to the dominance of the will to power overlooks the potential for individuals to prioritize cooperation, empathy, and ethical behavior.
13. Nietzsche's view of God as a hindrance to human progress neglects the potential for religious belief to inspire positive social change, moral development, and personal growth.
14. The argument that the death of God leads to the rejection of absolute values fails to consider the possibility of subjective moral frameworks and the existence of shared ethical principles.
15. Nietzsche's claim that the death of God is a necessary step towards human liberation neglects the potential for individuals to find meaning, purpose, and fulfillment within religious traditions.
Please note that this list is not exhaustive, but it provides a starting point for further exploration and discussion of Nietzsche's views on God and his book "God is Dead."
Dropped this legendary line in .... 1882 🤘☮
If we kill god in finality by setting our own values rather than inheriting them from the divine, do we not just fill the god-shaped hole with ourselves?
Do we not just deify ourselves?
Remember, the first trait of a hero is humility.
Really missed a chance to use an Always Sunny clip about “god-holes.”
my god you are correct. we failed big time.
Happy to see Nietzsche making it on YT's frontpage. 150 years went by and Zarathustra has yet to find his hiking boots, let alone finding a mountain to climb on to have a broader view.
People misuse the idea belief, they equate it with trust. Belief is unearned trust. I don't believe in either religion or science, but I do trust science.
Exactly. Nietzsche was so ahead of his time. Once the belief of God is rid from someone that individual must & will replace it with something else. There issue is that the new belief can now also influence u to the point to end up clouded with delusion again by accepting it as objective truth.
You just reminded me that Bowie played Pontius Pilate. Definitely needs a rewatch
16:00 ACKSHUALLY, God blesses golf clubs, but is not immune to hockey sticks
“That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.” -HP Lovecraft
"3/4 of every religion is you gotta use your holes the right way" FUCKING KILLED ME! BAHAHAHAHA!
I love the poking at the conspiracy theory that paul is dead. LOL Awesome job.
You need to remember to distinguish the western (european) idea of God from the rest of the world. Christianity never had any prominent influence on the muslim world and especially eastern cultural hemisphere to the point that the death of God (which is uniquely Christian imo) was never really felt there.
That's true! We definitely specified Western philosophy.
Would you mind explaining why it hasn't influenced Islamic religion? How does the Islamic conception of God differ from that of Christianity? I thought they were both classical theism.
@@jordancrago5129In Islam, God is completely beyond and above humanity, while in Christianity, God and man are reconciled through Jesus Christ. In Islam, God is strictly someone to be obeyed, while in Christianity God is someone you can have a personal relationship with.
1:11 Thats part of the reason, besides loving the content. That i made sure to show support for you man!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Among my favorite videos you’ve put out. Down for more deep dives into Nietzsche.
I give it 20 years, I don't think we need to look to the edges of the universe to understand God, just understand the mechanisms that birthed it well enough...
What a twist, haha. I wasn’t expecting “finish the job” as the conclusion.
As others are pointing out, though, even if we do manage this feat (and as you sort of touched on in the video) while a version of the Christian tradition’s image of God may be died or dying, humans do still have ideals and values. It’s a fundamental and even inescapably pragmatic human tendency to make value judgements. Even if the old supreme value dies, there won’t be a god shaped hole for very long before it’s inevitably filled with another supreme value, whether consciously or unconsciously. Whether we want the Christian God or not, we’re inescapably confronted with the question of which god we do want to orient our values around. Do we want that god to be ourselves (“human flourishing”)? The planet Nature? Technology? What is the most important thing for humans to orient their attention and value systems around? Or is the true death of God a complete obliteration of the concept of making value judgements at all? Or is it simply indifferences about the fact that humans tend to worship gods?
Evangelical films are so hilariously un-subtle in every way. You just gotta love em.
Rick Roderick: “The Death of God” is about the drying up of a horizon of meaning, and of a whole form of human life. And about Nietzsche’s both fear and exhilaration at what might come next. We still to a large extent live in the interregnum between worlds, if you will, or between paradigms. Not many people in the history of the world have faced that
First thanks for the video, love it! I was always more in tune with Spinoza than Friedrich, but respect!
Let's say I would try to do as Friedrich enjoins. I would elevate above socially imposed beliefs poised to renew some godhood. Then I would choose my values in a way that would make me closer to my part of humanity and humankind. Then how would this new corpus of values I would adhere to not become a new divine figure for me? Iguess in that it would not demean humans. So humanity and nature are the central point of this new corpus of values, this is getting quite close to Spinoza's definition of God. Am I missing something?
God is dead, so the only way to avoid slipping into total depravity is to either create new gods or become gods ourselves. Sounds like you prefer the former while Nietzsche prefers the latter.
I think the answer is kind of both, but the way their is self affirmation with life and our humanity @@AJX-2
Other things only replace god if we idolize/worship those things. Humans can be non religious(daily habit of exhalting something) and spiritual(acknowledging that there is more than just this physical realm we perceive) at the same time. Humans just need to understand that these god-replacing ideas are only tools that should be used to improve human understanding rather than an alternative to salvation. What we need to study is the reason why humans feel the need to worship something.
But you're still presuming that "increasing human understanding" is valuable in the first place. Did you choose that value for yourself or simply have it inculcated by the society you grew up in?
@@AJX-2it’s natural for Homo sapiens to want to understand the world around them. That’s why we even have religion- past humans made up stories to explain the unexplainable. Now science helps is explain things better, but overall humans are trying to get to the bottom of it if they have the privilege to do so. I didn’t choose this value for myself since it’s natural, but I guess my environment played a role since I’m not a subsistence laborer who doesn’t have the privilege to think past where their next meal is coming from.
@@mjkclem It's natural for human beings to do all kinds of things that I doubt you endorse. The point that Nitezsche is making is that we cannot rely on God or Nature or our enviornment to provide our values for us, we must choose them ourselves.
I do endorse everything that’s natural first of all. And yes part of my value system depends on nature, yet I’m not worshiping trees or doing rain dances. I highly respect science and some of my values come from things that science has proven without a doubt, but it’s just a tool and not something I would “fill a god-shaped hole” with. Yes we need to form our own values, and we already do! What matters is where you source those values from, and religion shouldn’t be one of those sources. And yes, increasing human understanding is valuable, how could you not think so?? I didn’t say “find out why we are here” or “what’s our purpose” but just increasing our knowledge of the world around us to make life more enjoyable for all humans is important. That’s literally what technology/invention is.
All I heard was "We desperately need the social sciences to take their rightful place in society before we invent another imaginary friend for emotional support."
I sought value and meaning outside of religion for 27 years, and it's a never ending search. God called me back after all that time, and I can tell you he's not dead. Nietzsche was indeed very wise to notice that science ultimately just describes, it doesn't explain. I remain as much a fan of science as I have always been, but it can never give you meaning. Actually, the deeper you go into it, I think you're just more and more mesmerized and amazed by the perfection of God's design.
It's funny how those who worship science will now just come up with stuff like "we live in a simulation" or "this universe is just one of many" and fail to notice what they're doing there, indeed, blind to their own theologically oriented thought...
However, Nietzsche also got it wrong: looking to God is not a negation of humanity. We are made in God's image, and through our relationship with God, we acheive our best possible life both on this earth and what comes next. That's what living a holy life is about, that's what becoming a saint is... bringing the kindgom of God to earth. That's why faith without works is dead.
Pretty sure I won't be converting anyone with this comment, but, you know, just thought I'd give the perspective of someone who loves science and philosophy and converted to Catholicism at his 27 years of age (I'm 29 now)... God bless you all.
The meaning of life is to propagate.
Not because we have the facility to do so,
but because life is synonymous with only one other phenomenon in the universe that
can explain life's existence.
That phenomenon is a chain-reaction. A self-perpetuating series of specific events
that facilitates its own propagation. Once a chain-reaction has started,
it operates outside the natural laws that surround it,
and even though it itself is a natural phenomenon, it stands out from its environment.
as it changes the nature of its surroundings to accommodate further propagation.
Life can always be recognized as that which does not conform to its surroundings.
Just as a swimming microbe can be identified against a backdrop of floating particles.
Life is made complex by interacting with itself, like standing waves interacting with their
own reflections bouncing off other objects.
These interactions create complex patterns and designs that seem so beyond randomness,
that they are beautiful, and we want them to be intentional. Divinity is a convenient
box to put things in so that we can own them.
Our ability to assimilate information and use it to predict the future,
is a mutation that has made us the dominant species and allowed us to multiply as we have.
It is also the attribute however, that attracts us to these complex patterns like moths to a flame.
Our fascination with them enslaves us and keeps us gazing at them.
But it’s a distraction, one that keeps us from asking a much simpler question, which is,
what is the sense of purpose, and why do have it?
Why do we have a longing to belong? Why does it always feel like there is a hole with a piece missing. One that we need to fill, and one that needs to be filled by us.
What attracts us to filling that hole, and what would we be if we did not have a sense to fill it?
What if we simply did not care to fill any holes?
Well, that might be the end of us.
For, if the sense of purpose is what guides a mindless neanderthal to fill a hole,
with a thing that looks like it goes in the hole, then a sense of purpose
could be the only thing keeping this whole chain-reaction going.
the problem isn't the atheist critiquing christianity or the christian critiquing atheism the actual problem is when an atheist or christian refuses to criticize themselves or what they believe in or don't
A continuation of this topic with Neil Gaiman's New Gods as a framework would be really interesting.
The FSM meme isn't about how "God" or "FSM" is silly. It may have morphed into that, but the original idea was about proof. There is no more proof of one than of the other. It's an update of Russell's "teapot".
Wisecrack just made me have a revelation. Thank you. An original subscriber, years later I appreciate the shift.
Seems like the answer to Nietsche is relatively simple. Embrace science and philosophy but reject scientism and domatic religion.
Now, I am Christian (obligatory disclaimer achieved), I don't believe in God because of some promise of Heaven or something like that although I believe in a new life after this one, I believe based on various life experiences, lots of historical research, and maybe, just maybe a little bit of what people call "blind faith". I'm not here to argue my beliefs though but rather I just want to comment on what I perceive to be a huge problem in both atheism and theism, the idea that believing in God somehow makes you a "good person" when in reality that's hardly true, not just biblically but in our daily lives. I've read a post somewhere about a waiter in, like, a Waffle House or something who said that the Sunday after church crowd are some of the rudest, most entitled people they've ever seen! It's a critique that a lot of hard-core atheists like to bring up, a Christian's tendency to have a "Holier than thou" attitude as though their belief in God makes them somehow better than everyone else. I've heard people say that their main reason for not believing in Christianity is because of the attitudes of the people within it. It's sad and frustrating to see so many people who are taught to "love thy neighbor" doing basically the exact opposite. I think that's what happens when your belief system is solely based on the promise of an afterlife in paradise.
Another thing is I don't see humanity "Killing God" any time soon, I live in the south, Kentucky to be precise, and there's a lot of.... conservatism here. A lot of backwards ideologies run rampant including racism and homophobia which, again, negates the whole "love thy neighbor" thing. Aside from that I believe that the "God-shaped hole" is evident in our very nature as human beings and our seemingly hard-wired desire to find purpose. I've found that everyone, EVERYONE has an opinion about purpose, and if you ask them, nearly everyone will gladly go on a whole rant about why they believe or don't believe in this and that and whatever. Many people who don't believe that the universe has any sort of real purpose are never born like that but rather come to that conclusion later in their lives. Many could argue that it's simply because they've been told to believe in God since early childhood and then later come to the conclusion that that's all just nonsense but in recent years more and more people are being born into Atheistic households and yet the pursuit of "purpose" still lingers in their minds somewhere, even if later in their lives they decide that it's pointless to try and find said purpose, the desire to do so had to be pushed aside at one point or another. Even if I wasn't Christian I'd still find this absolutely fascinating. Maybe it's just an evolutionary means of survival that we try to find purpose in things, why we as a human race are so fascinated by the universe, science, and generally just trying to figure out how everything works and why it works the way it does.
But we've never really figured out the "Why" part. Why, for instance, do two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen make water instead of something else and why is it so consistent? A belief in God certainly seems like an easy answer. It's as though it was simply "programmed" to do so. But let's say there is no "programmer", does that mean there is no "Why"? That that's just kind of the way it is? If we assume there is a God, is there a "Why" to him? It seems to me that no matter how you look at it, eventually you'll come to the conclusion that some things are just arbitrary, but then again, maybe I'm wrong. In fact, I've found that, due to our limited squishy gray-matter tucked away nicely within our skulls, it's likely that we're wrong about just about everything. Anyone who's familiar with Darwin's doubt will know what I'm talking about (if not, look it up, it's super interesting).
I don't really have a point here, I'm just spouting random philosophical nonsense that I think about a lot. I suppose if I have any conclusion to make here it's that the universe is so massive and complicated and we as humans are fascinated by it on a genetic level. Regardless, no matter what you believe or don't believe in I think it's better if we come together to discuss and share ideas rather than argue about them. It's frustrating to me to see the echo chambers of the internet go at each other's throats over things none of us really truly understand. It's even worse when it becomes real-life drama. Just.... try not to be a dick, that's all.
In my defense, thus spoke, Zarathustra is incredibly difficult to read
that's fair.
I describe myself as a syntheist; I prefer to say "god is made up" rather than, "god doesn't exist." For myself, I find that looking at gods as human creations is far more productive and empathetic than asserting that they don't exist at all.
If believing in God wasn't an innate feeling, then we would have been done with religion and spirituality long long long time ago.
When Michael says "God bless" at the end, it's with strange irony that the shadow of God still exists. It's kind of the same when atheists exclaim Jesus Christ. Btw, I have that Plumb CD. Haven't thought about it for ages. While people do have problems with the God Shaped Hole, it also seems fairly Augustinian. The restless soul is searching.
The way everyone thinks "God is dead" is everything they need to know about what Nietzsche had to say, and then proceed to read in their own smart-boy interpretations, reminds me of the similar take on Marx's usually misquoted "religion is the opiate of the masses" - ripping it out of its context ("Religious suffering is at one and the same time the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."). Marx also wrote in a letter to a friend that "there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogey man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people.".
"God is dead. God remains dead! And we have killed him! How can we console ourselves, the murderers of all murderers! The holiest and the mightiest thing the world has ever possessed has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood from us?"
I pled self-defense as the notion of God is an insult and detriment to humanity and will cause our destruction.
I have complex feelings on this that I can’t completely explain here. But, Nietzsche is hard for me. I agree with a lot of what he say’s especially when talking about Christians carrying more about the afterlife than this life. I am religious though and a lot of my favorite theologians specifically talk about that. That the most important thing about religion is how it affects your life now. Sometimes it feels like Nietzchsche doesn’t consider that side of it
True, we acknowledge this earth and world as God's own created garden and motherland, yet it is more or less flawed or marred (by us or by the Enemy). We must balance both our temporal and spiritual pursuit. All we did here still matter, God will be the Judge of that.
There's even a biblical warning about a kind of heresy which says you can do whatever you want wasting your material life because of the ensured spiritual salvation.
please be a god's not dead movie, please be a god's not dead movie. damn it
Yeah we gotta do that again soon.
What constitutes knowledge; how does one acquire it; what degree of confidence can be justified in our assertions? On one side stands religion ("faith,") on the other side, everything else. Pretty much.
We're all pretty sure we're gonna die, and most of us would like to feel like we're spending our alotted time wisely, or at least blamelessly. That's where the real friction comes in when you kill religion. I myself use the "I'll find out when I get there" cop out. I don't figure any current human religion has the correct answer and science frankly can't ask the right questions, so I'm stuck following my heart, doing what I think is right and being prepared to demand answers if I ever find myself before my creator. I also realize that it's just my own way of whistling past the graveyard, but I figure everyone needs something to deflect existential dread, as long as your way doesn't interfere with mine it's none of my business.
Hes saying that everyone who used gods name in vain need to recon with their inherent sin. The future is brighter without their idea and he was born too soon.
As an agnostic: Eh, its a possibility.