Inauthentic Vintage Motorcycle Sold for $85K at Auction?
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- Опубліковано 27 січ 2024
- Join us from the Mecum Motorcycle Auction in Las Vegas, Nevada as we cover the sale of a very rare 1974 Kawasaki Z2 750 that was sold only in Japan, with only about 10 or so being known to exist in the United States. Following the auction it was discovered that VIN was ground down and was not legible, something that would drastically impact the value of the motorcycle and its proof of authenticity. From
There a few more questions were raised but it was hard to get answers as little is know about the rare Z2 from 50 years ago. Mecum displayed great customer service by letting the buyer back out of the sale. #motorcycle
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I can't believe Mecum didn't verify the frame/ engine number before the sale.
If there's one thing to look at, it's that.
@@KTMK73 for sure, kinda puts Mecum in a bad light.
Find a z2 top case put it on z1 bottom case make 85 thousand 😊
@@KTMK73 I own a 175 Penton (KTM engine) that I bought brand new in 73. 😊
Title and paperwork must match the frame serial number, period before sale. The biggest problem with engine #'s is that most dealers would not have submitted that # when registering with the dmv, at least in the states. A copy of the original mso would be golden at this point but it already looks super sketchy.
This is on Mecum. For the fees they charge, they should be on the hook. They should be validating everything. This isn't eBay.
Not Mecums issue. They buyer didn't go home with 85k. He had to come back and get the bike. Ebay will screw everyone to make money.
Even ebay has buyer protection
Buyer beware especially at a auction .
They gave the buyer his money back. They have to get the seller to bring back the check, and pick up the bike, as stated in the video...
Turns out the bike was real. All these comments aged like milk rather quickly.
In the Mecum catalog it says original frame and engine numbers, shame on them for that.
Ground of VIN numbers can be X-Rayed and read from behind as the stamping leave an imprint on the other side of the metal.
Yes good point.
In this case, there is a LOT of metal removed. Likely too much to get a true VIN number even with xray
This is true of firearms, and why it's not good enough to just grind off a serial number on your stolen Glock. I'm not sure if the metal is hard enough in bike frames to retain a good die mark though.
Doubtful you can read it all....
Metal etching the simplest and fastest. Police do it all the time.
BEFORE you even consider a buy how could you NOT look at the VIN ?
it should have been checked before auction . outrageous price anyway.
The Vin is stamped on the left side of the frame, it is also printed on a sticker on the right side of the frame.
As a buyer, you don't always have time to see everything you want to bid on before you bid on it. Now, that doesn't left Mecum o the hook, since we as sellers, need to send in information about the vehicles months in advance, as well as detailed pictures and as much paperwork you have on said vehicles as possible. This gives them time to verify the seller's authenticity.
However, a bike like this that not only is imported, but was not imported through typical methods and channels as a bike of that era would have been adds more layers.
In a setting like this, its chaos. You are looking at everything you can, i would rarely look at vin...and ive bought 100+ at auction.
@c.r.parish
You can buy the stickers all day long. That will not stop GREED
Uncle Tony told me to come watch this atrocity so here I am.
Who spends $85k on a vintage bike (supposedly uber rare) without even verifying the frame and engine numbers? Way too much easy money circulating in the system these days.
I think a lot of that is illegal money laundering and that's just like the art auctions do you really thank Hunter biden's art was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars it was just a way for people to pay him for illegal business deals more than likely the art world is full of money laundering I have no doubt that probably antique vehicles goes the same
I was thinking the same thing. The guy was there in person. You can look at these bikes long before they go on the auction block. If I'm spending 85K on something rare I'm going to make sure that it's legit. And doubt and I'm out.
Mecum should have verified the bike first
Agreed 1 million percent. One of the first things you look at is the vin number.
The rib around the engine number is to keep the number from being filed off. Or at least make it difficult.
Ray Charles could see the numbers were ground off the neck.
We sold a vincent black shadow at Mecums a few years ago but outside the of auction block- to a supposed buyer. Mecum wanted their commission which was taken out of the selling price. A few months later I looked at some Mecum results and saw that they had the bike listed as sold for quite a bit more. We were happy but I’m really suspect of Mecum’s business practice. They take the seller’s word for authenticity so it’s buyer beware.
I think this has just thrown a proverbial monkey wrench into the spokes of Mecum. Greecc Dec has taken over, I would never buy ANYTHING from them.
Don't leave us with a cliffhanger. Please keep us updated!
This is an excellent opportunity for the public to learn and come to a fair understanding for all parties involved.
Its likely all over already. Buyer backed out. The seller was told come get it. The auction called foul and let the buyer back out. The seller may have been duped. Or the seller may be the one duping the auction and the buyers. I dont think anyone wants any publicity.
@@rodx5571 Fair enough explanation. But the auction house needs to come forward and explain to the public how something this blatant got by their inspectors. This isn't something to bury under the rug...
@@genejones7902 you're exactly right , it's not like we're dealing with the biden administration and the corrupt democrat party where fiction is fact and lies replace the truth
@@genejones7902 Apparently you don't understand how private business takes place. There is no 'public' to explain anything to, what do you think this is a government agency? gmafb
@@jameshisself9324 How you doing internet tough guy?
Mecum did the right thing, unfortunately, someone failed to catch the flaws of this bike, but in the end, the buyer was released from the sale because Mecum stands by their high standards! Well done!
They didn't do the right thing, it should have never been up for auction to begin with but all the auction house cares for is profits.
@williamfoster4268 agreed, these checks should have been done long before it was listed, what sort of reputable auction house lists a vehicle with an obviously ground down vin
If Mecum had any standards, that bike would've never made it into the auction. One of ten? Methinks Mecum smelled a big payday. BTW, this is nothing new, fake cars have been selling at these auctions for awhile. I've seen more '67 tri-power corvettes go across the block than were ever produced. It's hilarious. Caveat emptor!!
@@williamfoster4268 So you are saying they should have kept their mouth shut, pocketed the money and screwed over the buyer? They made a mistake and owned it. THAT tells me that they did the right thing...
@@W0rp3D One that makes a mistake and owns it.
Mecum should have caught that, and so should the prospective buyer.
Exactly. What's the Number 1 First thing you scrutinize on any collectable vehicle? The VIN number or plate!
The buyer did scrutinize it. Unfortunately, it was after the sale, but before he took possession. That's why Mecum has their system in place. We are all human, and many times we don't have enough time to scrutinize every detail on everything we want to bid on. A lot of times you don't necessarily have enough time to run around the entire arena and lay eyes, let alone hands on vehicles before they cross or you start bidding.
The vin should have been the first thing that mecum verified before it made it on the list. I used to work for a local car auction and every vehicle that came in the vin was verified as soon as it was on the property. If there was anything fishy about the vin, it would not have made it to the auction block.
happy to build you one for ....um....lets say....65K ? ....and you can have any number you want on it ;)
this is not some back yard auction, how could someone show up with that bike and not think the grinding of the numbers wouldn't be noticed.
Keep us posted on this one, Jack. If at all possible.
The classic car and motorcycle bubble is about to pop like the 🌷🌷
And they didn't even do a good job hiding it. You are supposed to weld over the old numbers so you can grind it smooth. They just chunked the metal with the old numbers out and then re-punched 2 digits so they can say the end numbers match. 🤣
Please tell us more about how this is normally done
@@jameshisself9324 its a decades old method. Nothing new. Just saying they didn't even try. And somehow Mecum was ok with that.
@@cknorris3644 Yep, I was kidding. It's hard to believe that anyone actually looked at that and signed off on it, a 5th grader would catch that.
They’re in Vegas, should have just got hold of Rick from the pawn shop.
He’s not an expert, but he knows a guy who is 😂
@teavstravel
Supposedly the buyer had an expert/agent on site . He wasn’t there.
First thing ghe guy needs to do is fire the so called expert.
How did Mecum not catch it prior to the auction? You can't even register it, or even insure it, if you plan to ride it
It was probably going to a collector that most likely would never even start it.
Exactly as previously mentioned, the original stamping can always be read by x-ray and acid as long as the entire section of metal with the VIN on it hasn't been removed. It's a steamer, nobody messes with the VIN if it's legit.
no shit you can x ray the old vin location to see what it is, but do you think mecum or some random guy is going to buy it or spend the time and money to do that? if it doesnt check out at face value, you dont spend time dicking with it you get the fuck away...
I wonder how this would have been handled if the buyer didnt discover it until he brought it home.
I believe buyers have 72 hours after the sale to claim misrepresentation to Mecum. A problem can arise if the winning bidder bids via the phone or internet and doesn't take delivery and finds the vehicle's shortcoming(s) within 72 hours.
@@USARAY1947 Thank you.
That bike should have never passed the registration process for the auction with ground down frame VIN!!
Mecum should always confirm sellers' legal ownership and VIN for anything they sell. Shouldn't they?
At least they did the right thing and let the buyer walk. It is a beautiful bike but not an 85K bike.
I’m certain Kawasaki factory experts would be happy to clear all of this. Good for Mecham.
Just got home from the Mecum sale last night. We did see you there on the floor a couple of times but never caught you unbusy! But we did see this bike hammer out sold. This was a great post and was in alignment with some of our discussions during the event.
Surely the vin and engine numbers would be verified before it was accepted for the auction?
Isnt that the norm to verify an item when u are representing someone.
Big error and they had no choice but to let the buyer be clear of this.
Auction house didn't verify yet they are representing it as authentic?
You can sometimes just sand the surface where the VIN is to bare metal and use some mild acid (MURATIC) to cause the old VIN to show. ? Why was this not verified prior to accepting for auction??
Numbers look ground down. I cant believe it wasn’t inspected before.
It's a rebuild, but it's a nice bike probably three bikes in one
One would have thought that someone looking to buy this bike prior to it going on the auction block would have looked at the serial numbers or would have payed someone like these guys looking at it after the sale to look at it for them to authenticate it. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out . Thanks for sharing
"Mecum displayed great customer service by letting the buyer back out of the sale?" I'd say they avoided a lawsuit or they avoided harm to their reputation. I wouldn't kid myself and say they did it for "customer service."
Why would it be a lawsuit. If you are to stupid enough to shell out 85k and not inspect it yourself and ask questions beforehand.
😅
@@2nickles647 Look through the comments section here to what amounts to people mistankingly assuming the auction house inspects vin and verifies paperwork. The buyer may have been under the same assumption. And if they have had no issues in the past buying from auction, maybe this was one of those last minute decisions to buy the bike anyway figuring all is good. Auction fever doing its thing.
The 75 stamp on the neck was stamped after it was ground off, also the z2 stamp on the engine is a different font from the rest of the numbers after.
Yeah it's two different case covers put together somebody found two bikes one with a title one without a title threw them together and sent to the auction to take some rich idiots money
I wouldn’t pay until this matter was 100% clarified
Mecum has a stellar reputation for highly collectible vehicles. This error is very concerning. Thankfully, the seller is retrieving his motorcycle and the buyer is free and clear ( and probably alot more wiser). 85K for a rare motorcycle isn't anything to take lightly.
They sold an Earnhardt #3 car as an Atlanta winning car. Even after Richard Childress came out publicly and said he had the real car was in his museum. The car they sold was an old test/show car.
They HAD a stellar reputation 😂😂😂
Patiently waiting the entire Mecum video from 2024!.....Thanks Jack!.
Universal Japanese motorcycles are my favorite but they are worth nowhere near $50k+. It's another bubble and it will pop like the comic book and sports card bubble. A good UJM is worth about $2k-$5k if you ask me.
It is worth what people will pay period. I have 3 H2's amd they bring back such good feelings. the sound nothing like it, The smell I am back in time to the greatest time in my life.
I'm with you on that.
I heard about this... ground off SN, and the seller left instantly after the auction. The buyer saw the ground area at the steering frame, and refused to buy it. At the least, it is a fraud, at the most, it could be built from stolen parts. Buyer beware.
Three points:
1) On a "ground up" restoration, if the owner was trying to hide something, how could he do such a sloppy job messing with the headstock?
2) How hard would it have been for the owner to punch in the VIN on the headstock if he was trying to deceive someone?
3) Anyone speak Japanese? If the bikes were only sold in Japan, it follows that there are people there who could clear this up in seconds.
Read the Hagerty article. It breaks it down on why the powder coating was ground.
Jack, I worked on many Kaws, and both these bikes looked like the numbers were ground down and re-stamped. NOT LEGIT!!!!
Was restored, so wasn't original. 85k ?
Way too much$$$$$
Is the Mona Lisa priceless? Not to me but to an Art lover yes. 85 K If you have the money, Can't take it witj you.
Restored or made up from several bikes ? A mongrel !
A friend of mine sent me this vid, it’s awesome how Mecum conveniently didn’t check the vin. It’s on them
the rib is where you insert the plate that cast the numbers in unless it is stamped / engraved after.
Liked the 79 LTD, had one and a 79 Yamaha XS1100 Special back in the day they were both just at 4K new. Good times.
Crazy, I put several of them together as a high school kid working at Kawasaki shop. They came in a wooden crate from Japan. I think the price was around $2600.
Mecum sells tens of thousands of units a year. Some fakes slip through. Not the first time Mecum made a transaction good after the sale.
It's either a bike pieced together from a bunch of parts or it had a bad frame so they sourced another and badly ground off the old numbers and re-stamped to match the paperwork they have.
If that vin numbers are missing you have to assume that it is not a authentic frame. I would also ck other areas of the frame for alterations. Like the factory rivets on a car or truck, etc.,they are specifically designed for authentication purposes.
I'm glad you did a video, maybe the next person they try to scam will see this
I saw one of those 750's in Tokyo in 1977. I think at that time there was a cc limit hence no 900's.
Correct. The Z2 750 is a wound down 900 for the domestic market, and IMHO has no more value than a decent z1 900
There is a member of the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club that has a 73. It was at Barber in 2022. If this issue hasn’t been resolved, he may be willing shed some light on the subject
$85,000 for a KZ 750?
I had a '75 Z1, 900cc...loved it...those bikes are bringing big money...😮
I don't see 85k for that bike. What is the difference between that bike and the one's that where sold in the USA.
The ones sold in the USA are stamped "Made in Japan" and the ones made in Japan are stamped "Made Here"
When I was at the Kawasaki service training center in Michigan they had a '73 Z1 900 there. Totally stock, frame number 2 , and 3 miles on it! What would that bike get at auction?
"Frame up restoration."
Red flag to check it completely.
My 2nd bike was a 78 KZ650. I wish I still had it.
@3:51 I believe the cases are from a 78-79.
Mechum accept scratched of serial numbers sounds to greedy to me.
The stamp on the head tube clearly looks covered and restamped. You can see part of the previous stamp underneath the material that was used to cover the previous stamp. How that got by Mecum seems suspicious to me. Especially being a highlighted featured import. I've never heard of a Z2. Or ever seen one for sale in the states. Of course I'm no expert.
On a smaller scale, Mecum sold two Honda mini trail CT70 3 speeds as the much more sought after CT70H manual clutch 4 speed.
Hey man. I stood next to you at the Skynard / Buffalo Chip concert last year
How did it even make it onto the sales floor without somebody from Mecum looking at the paperwork, the vin numbers ? horrible standards shady as all folks I’d feel pretty stupid for buying anything through them with such a low bar of inspections and verifications
Kawasaki had their own stamping fonts. Check to see if the number 2 on the Z2 stamp on the crankcase is correct kawasaki font also check what is left of the stamping on the headstock. Simple..
Just wondering. Does mecum put a hold on payment for a certain time period for this very reason?
What an amazing outcome of this bike!!?! The seller gave us such a precise speech on this bike. Very weird.
There are a few z 900 and z 1000 in Australia I remember as a 10 year old sitting on brand new dove tail z 900 and I got to ride a z1000 coffin tank at 16 what s scary ride for the first big road bike I jumped. The Kawasaki show room on parramatta rd camperdown next door to Lennox’s motors VW show room
Don't know if I missed something, but where were all these experts before the sale? Seem odd to start checking it out after, and not before.
I think we can all agree identifiers with the bike definitely don't look right..... I think the bigger question ......did the seller know???
Damn, Don't they have scrutineers??? Or is it what I say is what it is??? Damn.
I'm so glad to hear they let the buyer wipe his hands clean of it.
Keep us informed please, I would like to hear what happens with this one?
It’s still a beautiful bike. I hade an identical bike in appearance, it was a 1974 Z1A 900 in the same color scheme.
I had a winter project or hoping to get one..
and it was a 75 Harley and I bought it on eBay and when the police came out and checked it out it was from another state it was delivered. And it was stolen......
now I'm fighting eBay to get my money.. you know I retired I was hoping to find and enjoy building something I don't know if even anybody is honest.. well I'm shot up but not shut down I hope to find one hopefully a nice basket case but who knows.. common sense and honesty is going today 😮😢
If Mecum doesn't address this issue with some transparency, I am never going to purchase a vehicle via their auction services, which is something I have always dreamt of doing.
If these guys would stop overpaying for vehicles it would make people stop doing stuff like that.
Great story. I hope there is some kind of update but I know that probably isn't going to happen.
Bragging rights often mean more than reality so a lot of buyers actually won't care about the exactness of things. And they willingly pass it on to the next person. So this is not a surprise rather very common place. Consider that there are more Chevelle SS cars now then were ever made at the time. Motorcycles are easy to collect and store. I have only 2 but that is just because I haven't bought another one yet....
Temper with a vin number is a federal crime. The broker selling such an illegal vehicel makes them a accomplice and therefore a punishable crime as well. Best case it is a misdemeanor for not checking the VIN. That is the whole reason Mecum paddled back. They knew they were in hot waters and wanted to get rid of it asap.
Love watching dumb ss throw their,money away on motorcycle that is really worth about 5,000 dollars at most.
ll credit to the buyer for being smart, and, inspecting the bike BEFORE he left the premises with it. If he hadn't, he'd have been screwed.
Why doesn't the auction house have people who verify the authenticity of what they're selling?
speaking of kz750 fours.... I have a 1980 in a ATV frame with compound turbos and 18psi boost! I am afraid to ride it now because I have gone through 2 engines already with rod bearing failure and I feel like they are getting rare.
Don't know about other states, but in Texas they title bikes strickly on the vin stamped on the frame. I've done a couple of lost titles and had to have them inspected by the police and all they looked at was the frame vin. They would have rejected this one. Wonder what kind of title this bike had if any. Seller was hoping buyer would be too ashamed to admit he made an 85k f'up. Bet this one surfaces again in the future looking for another sucker.
It's on ebay now
This type of case pretty common in Malaysia, usually with Yamaha Rxz
Does anyone know why the bike was a 750cc and not 900? Because that's the largest displacement bike you could legally own in Japan in the 70's.
Ha . I have a 76 Kawasaki Z2 750 that my uncle imported from Asia through military service MANY decades ago. It’s very interesting bike. I drive it all the time
Sherlock Jack doing some detecting. What an interesting discovery. Now the story will be: does the seller return? Will the seller be found? Eighty five grand can buy a get away to a salubrious place far out of reach from the motorcycle interpol.
Not so, anybody can be found. Getting them is another story.
There will be a delay paying out the seller on purpose just in case this happens. They will never see a cent.
Could have been smoothed down to reduce friction on the cables or wire harness
It’s crazy that whoever purchased this bike did not inspect and verify Vin numbers, frame and engine and the title
So if nobody is sure it's a 1972 then how is anyone sure it isn't a 1972?
So Mecum does not have to verify frame/motor #s, they just print a paper with the numbers the seller presents? Frame # ground down + last digit on motor # is 4 instead of 1 and they sell it like that?
You might remember some years ago when one of the 1930 Audi "Silver Arrow" racing cars was up for auction, and was claimed to be the winner of a particular GP? However, the auction house "did their homework" and because there was doubt about the car's provenance, it was withdrawn from the auction. We're talking a multi=million sale price and the auction house stood to make a huge commission, but they withdrew it.
Same for the Kawa - it should NOT have been put across the block - only seeing TWO numbers existing where the VIN should be was very off-putting.
The OWNER should have done HIS due diligence, authenticating the bike's provenance. Lovely bike yes, but at $85k it HAD to be 100% correct.
I remember that - I believe it was a Sotheby’s auction if I remember correctly.
You can't put that kind of money into a restored vehicle, motorcycle or otherwise, and have any questions what-so-ever about its authenticity. None. Definately NO DEAL! It's up to the seller to make sure everything is copacetic.
If it truly was one of 10 in the USA and they were exported to only a handful of special people then thr factory very well may have ground the numbers off the frame because maybe they were not supposed to have been sold in the first place...but who knows. I mean why not just look at one of the other 10 if any are still around? Ask the manufacturer. Im curious to see what happens with this.
In the past several early American motorcycles with replica chassis but original engines have been auctioned without revealing that important fact. Let the buyer beware!
Simply because early American motorcycles did not have any frame numbers, only engine numbers.
How did that bike make it on the block in the first place?
I've owned many ujm's
I've.always verified the neck stamp to the title..
Comon sense to me. Every car I have ever purchased also.
And there are Vin numbers in other places as Well
imagine having the balls to show up with a fake bike at an auction like that? crazy
How would you register this? I know it likely would be a museum piece but would never pass a Vin verification obviously. Good for the buyer walking. Theres serious problems with this bike.
Who in their right mind would pay $85k even if it is authentic