$50 vs $170 Chef’s Knives
Вставка
- Опубліковано 31 жов 2022
- Mercer Renaissance Chef’s Knife
View on Amazon: geni.us/NI1m
Victorinox Chef's Knife
View on Amazon: geni.us/Bxyma
Zwilling JA Henckels Twin Pollux Chef's Knife
View on Amazon: geni.us/UA4WA
These are my 3 best chef's knives for $50.
▬ Contents of this video ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
00:23 - Victorniox overview
01:04 - Mercer overview
02:38 - Zwilling JA Henckels overview
03:21 - Sharpness and edge
04:23 - Testing the rust resistance
05:45 - Testing the balance
06:53 - Weighing the knives
07:27 - Verdict ($50 or $170 knife)
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Greetings from Jacksonville Florida USA. Nice job. I have the NINE inch Mercer. Fits me perfectly. Love using it. Also have an eight inch Damascus knife, for finer work. Never had good luck sharpening my knives myself.
Great content. Glad you brought up the steel qualities so important!!
Thanks for this quite informative video. What is your take on Babish knives, the santuko, boning, clef, and chef knives. Would love to see a video on them.
Thanks for the comment. That’s a great idea, I’d love to give them a try, might look into doing a video on them in the future
I’ve got Miyabi chef 8”, Yaxell Enso prep, Mac 6” utility, Victorinox 8” chef, various knives in a Chicago Cutlery set gifted to me, and a Chinese 5” filet knife. Home cooks don’t really need expensive knives, which are suited to cork-sniffing, steel wonks. Stainless is more practical for most folks and good quality is available at reasonable prices. Ease of sharpening is freeing to the home cook to focus on getting the meal on the table. As long as you have a knife that will ease through a soft tomato, you’re good. A chef type knife for chopping and bigger cutting jobs is a must. Add a comfortable and maneuverable small paring knife for in-hand work and a utility knife and you are set. Comfort with the handle, weight, and blade design will bring more use for the knife. Home cooks generally are not breaking down large amounts of meat. I mostly use my Victorinox chef knife and a 3.5” comfortable Chicago Cutlery paring knife for meal prep. Occasionally, I’ll use the Japanese prep and utility knives. The harder Japanese knives are more prone to chipping. I read that Shun knives are very chippy which is a worry. I have a Japanese two-sided water stone but I’m not very good with it and it takes time - so that’s again for those who are really into knives. My Chef’s Choice electric sharpener brings my Victorinox to a keen edge, with a little bite, which I find more practical than a razor-edge - it’ll slice into a tomato better. As for stamped vs forged, etc. Many of the top Japanese knives are stamped. For most purposes, I prefer a knife that isn’t a thick wedge. One just doesn’t need to spend a log of money for knives. If possible, it’s good to get a feel for any knife - suit yourself and research to ensure that the steel is of good quality and will be worry-free and easy to keep sharp.
I have 5 Mercers and love them. I prefer the Genesis because of the handle.
Saying chromium makes steel stainless is correct but it's also somewhat misleading. It's chromium in solution that makes steel stainless, but it likes to form chromium carbides with the carbon, and it doesn't help with stainlessness when it's a carbide. You can see this clearly in some extreme examples, where ZDP-189 has 20% chromium but it's largely tied up in carbides so the result is a steel that will rust in distilled water, but CPM MagnaCut has 10.7% chromium and will barely rust in 1% saltwater.
I bought the 8 inch Mercer Renaissance granton chef's knife about 6 months ago , it's ok. I prefer the victorinox fibrox chef's knife mainly due to the handle. My next chef's knife will probably be a Global or Shun.
I'm able to put a razor edge on any blade so I've always chosen the knife with the most comfortable grip. Too many people are consumed by name brands and image.
nice review. I don't why a knife with balance is slightly forward into the blade would much of a factor. It seems like slight forward balance may even be a may even benefit chopping.
Personally I like carbon steel knives especially the vintage ones that you can usually get for pretty cheap
Mercer is also in 90+% of cooking schools in the US the Mercer Genesis 8in is good if you like 20degree angles.
Well said, excellent, the mercer is the one for me, cheers from Ireland.
I actually bought an 8" Mercer Millennia thinking it was the Victorinox knife here since that's what I *thought* they were using so much in ATK. $22 and I absolutely love it. It's stamped and the steel isn't as hard, but it hones easily. I recently used it to thinly slice 5 *pounds* of onions for a Genovese sauce and my eyes never burned.
wait a min....you can slice onions without eyes burning? That's news to me.
@@ex8280 With a super sharp knife, you sure can. The blade just slips through without any crushing that aerosolizes the onion juice. I'm using a Mercer BPX now and the results are even better. Thinner, harder, sharper.
Stropping with a leather belt to polish away burrs helps a lot. You want the knife almost irrationally sharp for this.
My eyes burned more simmering the onions (with a lid!) than they did slicing them. Even the cat was squinting once the heat got to all those slivers.
@@ndzapruder I just got me some leather to strop my knives too! Will have to try it out. Thanks.
@@ex8280 Sweet! Have fun and be careful!
I recently aquired a Wilkinson sword sheffield steel vintage 60s 79s 10inch cooks knife unused in original packaging, looks fantastic quality. if there are any collectors here with any knowledge on this let me know
The Wüsthof did cost me 76€ (including 19% VAT) in 2018 (100€ nowadays) when i bought it. The Victorinox knives cost around 35-50€.
While i really like the Wüsthof and have nearly the whole lineup with the 20cm chefs knife, the bread knife and the pairing knife being my favorite (and all the knives i need) the quality isnt that good. I had to do alot of filing to remove the really sharp edges especially around the bolster.
The Victorinox Fibrox has a better out of the box quality and the handle is easier on the hands...especially considering its price.
The steel on the Wüsthof is harder and it stays sharp a bit longer but that also makes it less robust. If you handle it with a bit of care due to that it will be the last knife youll ever own. But imho the Fibrox is the better knife for normal use if you care more about how it handles instead of how it looks.
Some people say the " messermeister " are rebranded German " burgvogel " but I'm not sure
I feel a blade biased balance point aids push cutting while handle bias aids rock chopping.
Personally Buck knives cutlery is the best bang for the buck!
Most expensive kitchen knives are very poor value and there is very little difference between them and very moderately priced knives because they use quite cheap steels that make even basic carbon steels look good. That said, there are some people out there using high end stainless and carbon steels and even a few bargains. IKEA sells a knife made from VG 10, which is by no means top of the line but has better edge retention than most carbon steels while being very stainless. Stainless steels to look out for are CPM154, LC200N, AEB-L, Magnacut and S30V. There are plenty of Japanese knives in exotic steels too. VG 10 is quite common, including in Shun knives, and high end carbon steels like ZDP 189 and HAP 40 will give edges that last forever but need care as they will rust.
They will probably be a bit more expensive than Wusthof etc but you are getting much more knife.
One caveat. Edge retention and ease of sharpening are directly related. Any steels with over 60 HRC hardness (Rockwell) will be much easier to sharpen with diamond sharpening plates. Hand sharpening isn't all that easy and takes a reasonable investment in stones and a lot of practice, preferably on cheap knives. Spyderco sharpmaker or a guided system like the worksharp precision adjust elite are the simple way for novices to get good results.
Couple of things. I do agree, some high end Japanese kitchen knives are completely unreasonable in terms of price, but some are quite reasonable. You also have to take into account for some people, it is their hobby and they are perfectly fine with spending upwards of $400 on a nice knife. I would not say there is very little difference between them and moderately priced knives, because of the edge geometry. Because of the chemical makeup of the steel, most stainless knives are going to be quite thick and soft. This makes it hard to cut through foods like sweet potatoes, squash, and carrots. Because carbon steels, which almost all high end Japanese knives are made out of, where it be blue or white, are able to be forged much thinner. This makes it so the knife has to move less food out of the way in order to cut through. (just search up edge geometry vs sharpness). In terms of steel with the best edge retention, I would have to give AS, or Blue #2 the top spot. Its a carbon steel and has by far the best edge retention. As for sharpness, White #1, also carbon, is probably the sharpest steel on the market now (mainly used for sushi knives). Good stainless steels would be like you said ZDP 189, HAP 40. SG2 or R2, which are high speed powered steel are amazing and work absolute wonders, or for a more affordable option, vg-10 or vg-max.
I do agree, sharpening is ridiculously difficult. I would probably call it a art form, and it takes years to master. I've been free hand sharpening on whetstones for a while now, and I still know nothing compared to some 3rd generation sharpeners. I would say fixed systems are better for most common knives with a koba (microbevel) of 12-25 degrees with a 50/50 edge ratio. Any other advanced or different edges like zero grinds, 70/30 or 80/20 bevels, and single bevel knives should be sharpened on whetstones exclusively, as fixed sharpeners are only made for generic knives and lack the customization for the purposes previously stated. For pocket knives or regular kitchen knives, I would say fixed system all the way, and whetstones are a bit excessive for applications like those.
I know it's next to impossible to go into every single detail of sharpening in an 8 minute long video but you really should have mentioned the importance of Rockwell HRC hardness of steel and how that effects edge holding, resharpening and toughness.
The other thing to mention is all the knives are flat grinds with V-grind cutting edge bevels EXCEPT the Victorinox, it uses a Convex edge bevel so it it's tougher but will round over (become dull) much faster than the other grinds.
If you can get your hands on one I'd like to see a comparison with any of the Twosun TS 999 series of kitchen knives using 14c28n steel which I particularly like
Great comments and I agree, I'll try to add some additional details in future videos 😀
Victorinox is all that I buy anymore.
I use Japanese knives, Miyabi have been my favorite, and usually wait for them to go on sale right now I'm using two nikiris for daily use and they're amazing paid about that same as the wüshtof but worth 2-3x more
Yes! Miyabi knives are beautiful. They are actually owned by Zwilling as well so they do quite a few knives that balance western and Japanese styles really well
You really are paying too much with miyabi. You can get a hand made knife from a Japanese craftsman for a little bit more than the regular price for the Miyabi. Additionally, Tojiro uses excellent steel in their lineup but costs around $100 for a chef’s knife.
@@buffalojones341 I usually buy mine on sale or through ebay I have a nakiri that I paid 65$ that's almost 6 years old and I don't just use miyabi. I really like their knives and hardly ever venture out for other knives. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
@@samuelruiz7377 that’s a good deal on the nakiri! I’d have grabbed it at that price!
I’m a knife sharpener and I usually hate to see people drop money on Shuns. Miyabi are just a more polished Shun in many ways but you pay for the prettier handle.
@@buffalojones341 yeah I usually buy them on ebay when their chiped and I just fix them myself I have a set of whetstones 400-10,000 and love to get my knives razor sharp. 120 dimiond for the really rough knives. I rarely buy them new unless I really love the knife
A good knife needn't to be stainless a lot of high end Japanese kitchen knives are made of steel that isn't stainless or at least have a core layer made of a steel like that (often paper steels)
You place emphasis on the grade of steel used, namely 50CrMoV15, and rightly so. But what you fail to mention is that the grade alone does not completely define the blade's properties. This grade can have HRC hardness between 53 and 57, depending on heat treatment etc, and there's a lot of difference in edge retention between these values. Forged knives are often, but not necessarily, harder. To increase the uncertainty, some manufacturers have been known to specify a hardness not actually reflected in their products.
Furthermore, it is generally considered that the ideal hardness for a good balance between edge retention and brittleness is about 59. Even at best, 50CrMoV15 falls short of this.
Very good point on the heat treatment and something I have thought I should have mentioned in the video. Will keep in mind for any similar future videos
What honing steel do you recommend?
You can’t go far wrong with a Wusthof or Messermeister
The weight has nothing to do with the stamped blade, but the bolster and rivets
I know McCook might not compete with your knives, but they are still German steel and sharp enough to cut the hair on your head!
The Wustof is my least favorite mostly because of that massive bolster or heal that runs down back of the blade you can't sharpen it as well with whetstones and eventually there will be a spot that doesn't touch the board. Cheers.
Agree. I own about half a dozen knives and the Wusthof is my least favourite. You can wear the bolster down with diamond stones to allow you to sharpen to the edge but it's a real pain in the arse.
@@twatmunro at that point it seems it'd just be better to get a different knife
Ive done a ton of repair work for clients of mine who have had the same issue. It really is a poor design issue and is a ton of work to fix. The belly on their chef knives are also super aggressive, so it makes rock chopping your only option, and push or pull cutting are completely out the window.
the wüsthof icon would be the way to go then
mercer is great, and wustof makes some cheaper knives that are great too.
I personally use the Mercer Renaissance in a commercial kitchen and although i agree it's a great knife for the price you can't really leave out the HRC when comparing it to a Wustof since that's the reason you pay extra and is the line you cross between normal knifes and advance knifes.
You think there's a significant difference in hardness between the Wusthof and the Mercer? I own both knives and I can't distinguish any difference in hardness between them. Both knives hold an edge for about the same length of time and sharpen as easily as each other.
Both of them are what I'd regard as 'soft' steels -- need sharpening quite frequently, but are relatively easy to sharpen. I have a couple of japanese chef's knives -- in carbon steel and in powder metals and the difference between those and the Wusthof is like night and day. I definitely wouldn't buy the Wusthof again -- it was the first 'good' knife that I bought and it's by far the least used of all of my knives.
@@twatmunro you know what. You're right and even if there was a difference in hardness i wouldn't say a x2 price is worth it.
Hey! Sorry I forget, how much did the Wusthof cost?😅
🤣
Buy a Tuo Falcon 6.5 in. Nakiri. You can beat this blade with no mercy.
Victorinox knife is the best!
'more chromium the better" seriously? Chromium is awful for blades and its only benefit is rust resistance. Chromium creates massive boulders in the edge reducing how sharo you can get the blade and is also very hard and difficult to sharpen.
Best stainless blades also contain vanadium and are made from anodised powder layers created in a vacuum. (To reduce the carbide size) The wustoff stainless (xmov) is decent, but far from the best. Elmax, m390, powder steals are the best stainless, but carbon steel is still the best in terms of the edge. Paper steel, etc...
I generally find that for western-style kitchen knives the Chromium content is the best indicator of whether the steel is decent or just some cheap knockoff steel. Brands will almost always claim their knives are super rust-resistant stainless steel, given rust resistance is one of the main factors most people are looking for in western style kitchen knives, and the best indicator of whether this is true is to check the chromium content is at least >14%
@@honedyt any stainless steel is fine for kitchen knives, if all you care about is how stainless they are.. To be stainless just needs 10% to be classed as such. No... People are after blade retention, Rockwell hardness, the type of bevel, toughness, etc etc, very low on the list is how stainless the blade is. Unless you submerge them in salt for a week you won't have any issues a quick polish wouldn't sort.
No... The video shows very little knowledge of knives, you don't even mention the type of steel. If you had suggested xmov as a good all round steel, or mention m390, elmax or some other powder stainless then you might have had a vaguely informed video.
By your reckoning 304 stainless steel is the best for knives as it has loads of chromium... (18%) Guess what... It's bad for knives wouldn't hold an edge for 4 cuts of paper. Try making a stainless knife from it and tell me how great it is.. (it's what your pots are made of)
Sorry it's clear you have done zero research.
Alrighty then but I think you’ve rather missed the point of the video. I’m not going to start talking about powder steel when looking at $50 western style knives. The vast majority of people are not looking for knives with the highest Rockwell hardness as that comes with a whole host of its own issues, chipping, hard to sharpen, more expensive etc. Decent western knives generally have a HRC between 56-58, with chromium levels between 15 - 18% which is what most people want from their kitchen knives. 304 stainless steel isn’t used to make knives so I don’t see how that’s relevant, people watching are intelligent enough to know I’m not advocating using their pots and pans as knifes because they have high chromium content 😆
@@honedyt I never said they purely look for HRC... It's the balance between all the key attributes. NONE of which are how stainless they are. Ever seen a pattina on any stainless steel even on stuff left outside? Only on the coast near salt water. And as per your test, (when you should be testing edge retention) none of them rusted (shocker) and the plastic handles were not affected (oh wow... No way) the other test you did, handle balance is a thing, but Japanese knives are balanced to be blade forward as that is a design feature not a mistake. The biggest crime is that you dismissed edge retention entirely, saying all western knives dull quickly. This is flat out wrong. A good blade steel will stay sharper for much longer. Also.. rating by factory edge is pointless for the very point you made, you will sharpen them yourself at some point, (good blades half as often) and all you are doing is testing how the factory sharpened them,. I can sharpen a ruler to a razer edge, but it will last one day.
You are literally basing an entire video on stainless level and durability (which is not a defined knife quality) when that is the least important attribute for anyone buying a knife. And the key aspect of any knife is what it is made of. Something you only defined for the mercer (likely cos it was written on the blade)
If you are going to review a knife find out what it is made of (xmov I'm this case) which is a stainless steel with low to medium hardness medium to low edge retention and good strength easy to sharpen (but quick to dull) at a low price point and is German made. Low edge retention is NOT durable. The issue with saying durability is that it relates to the entire 'thing' ie it won't fall to bits. But all of these blades have low edge retention, which is the only aspect of the all sweeping durability statement that matters. Basically no. They are not as durable in the edge sharpness than other types of steel.
You notice how none of those factors relate to the stainless level or 'durability'? Because it's barely an issue the other factors decide the difference between a good knife and a bad one. And HRC does not mean a knife is hard to sharpen as some steels achieve high hardness but are still ok to sharpen. There are exceptions. With knives there is always a compromise between all these factors. But to address your chromium point again... Steel makers add tungsten to stainless steels in premium knives to avoid a brittle blade, if a steel has 20% chromium and no tungsten it's basically an awful easily chipped blade. This is why m390 has tungsten in it. Also powder steels do sharpen easier as the grain is so small. Again durability is never a thing that is used to define a knife steels attributes. Strength, hardness, edge retention, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance (the least important) price, bevel degree and type, (single convex, etc etc)
Carbon steel blades are the best all round knives and used by the best chefs in the world and have zero chromium. And you can get them in this price range.
Research what you are making a video about before you review it. Especially if you are mainly reviewing just one knife... How hard is it too look up the steel it is made of and quoting knife nerds or some other website that does all the hard work for you?
You review is akin to a guy reviewing a car and not mentioning the engine or the gearbox or it's fuel efficiency but banging on about the paint job for 90% of the review.
Ok so the fact that your recommendation is a high carbon knife with zero Chromium because that’s what some top chefs might use just proves that you totally miss the point of this video and who it’s for. That is literally the worst advice to give to an average person looking for some low cost kitchen knives. I have no problem with you saying I should do other tests and such, in fact it’s useful when I get comments like that, but I completely stand by the fact that a decent chromium level is the single best indicator of a knife being from a decent manufacturer for western style chefs knives, I have researched the steel composition of literally 100’s of knives and it’s a constant recurring theme that is more reliable than any other indicator. To use your own analogy, recommending a high carbon, zero chromium knife to an average person is like recommending a Formula One car to a family with four kids and a dog.
This channel gives no answer and just passes you on to the next vid to actually get an answer 🤣🤣
I part company with this presentation at 4:00, when he advocates sharpening by whetstone. Most people watching this video are NOT professionals or hobbyists, and should realize that using a whet stone to sharpen a knife depends above all on maintaining the proper edge angle. This requires a skill set that is not trivial, and like all skills, it must be maintained. The home cook will never have to sharpen a properly maintained (see honing in video) knife often enough to maintain the skill required for freehand sharpening with a whetstone. I fought the whetstone battle for too many years, never managing a decent edge. I then acquired a Lansky set for $25- problem solved.
I've struggled with the whetstones, with mixed results. I'd love to know what you refer-to when you mentioned the "Lansky set". That might solve my problem, too. I really like the Mercer Millenia chef's knives, but the edge gets raised spots after some use (and honing), and that makes it hard to chop all the way through fruits and veggies with skin. The curve of these Renaissance blades would probably be better for some purposes. But I need to be able to sharpen them. What's Lansky?
@@soupernutt9508 Lansky makes sharpening sets. They make a sharpening system that you attach to a table which you clamp a knife and mini-whetstone into at a fixed angle, and it lets you run the whetstone back and forth (at the set angle), so you get all the advantages of a whetstone with all of the difficulty removed. Just look up Lansky sharpening kits and you'll be able to find them. I think they start just under $50, so it's fairly affordable. There are some other systems to look into too, all with a fairly similar mechanism, KME, Edge Pro, TSProf to name a few.
It just takes a bit of practice. I've recently upgraded my whetstones, but for years all I used was a King 1000/6000 and a leather strop with some green compound. My knives were sharper than they came from the factory. You just need to be a bit thoughtful in regard to what you're doing and develop a bit of muscle memory. I'm far from skillful when it comes to tasks that require hand/eye coordination, so if I can manage it, anybody can. But you do have to a.) Learn what it is that you're doing (Japanese Knife Imports has the best videos on UA-cam in this respect) and practice a bit with cheap, shitty knives with a softer steel.
I recently invested in a Shapton Kuru-maki 400 and a Shapton Glass in 1000 and 5000. Sharpening is a real pleasure now and takes no time at all.
www.youtube.com/@JKnifeImports
@@hunter-tm2kl Many thanks, I should've deleted my comment after posting. I looked it up, found a set on Amazon, and it should be here in a few days! This is what I have been looking for. Thanks so much for your helpful post. I found some instructional videos here, too.
@@twatmunro I am fully aware that it takes practice. But I, as a home cook, simply don’t have to sharpen my knives often enough to have the skill “stick.” A sharpening system like the Lansky, which I use, or the Work Sharp or etc. gets my knives where they need to be- not necessarily “shaving sharp” (and I have had new knives that wouldn’t cut butter satisfactorily). If they’ll slice 20# printer paper, that’s my test of “gut genug” (good enough).
:Mora Frosts enters the chat:
I feel like you shouldnt buy expensive knives if you dont know how to sharpen them well. I own alot of knives both inexpensive ( victorinox dexter) and expensive ones (cutco shun wusthoff) they are all great if you keep them sharp.
German knives seem to be a bit overpriced in the USA
Why would anyone spend 170 on wustoff you can get beautiful hand forged japanese knife for that price
My guess is that Wusthof buyers don't know that other options exist. Japanese makers don't really do much marketing at all and Wusthof does, so it makes sense that this is the case. Also there is the argument to be made for Wusthof knives being how soft they run their steels, because they account for people not being careful with them, but then again, you'd be able to find Japanese knives in softer steels for cheaper from makers like Tojiro and Misono.
German knives tend to be tougher. Japanese knives tend to be more brittle/hard and prone to chipping and breaking. It’s their brittleness/hardness that allows for such a sharp edge. (Which also makes them more prone to chip.). With most Japanese blades, I would avoid anything hard like a bone, while the German blade will have no trouble. It all depends on your cutting style or the job at hand. I’m one of those that prefers Japanese blades as well, but I have German blades too.
@@Ryarios i got a 240 karaku gyuto its kinda middle ground not nearly as sharp as my other Japanese knives but im not worried about frozen food or bones with it. It was 200 dollars
@@Ryarios can definitely find durable workhorse japanese knives for that price just gotta use common sense anduse right knife for job
@@Ryarios But then it's just better to go with something like the Mercer, or even something decent from a Chinese manufacturer that uses the same steels at the same hardness. Same quality for 1/3 the price. You're just paying for branding at that point. There are also semi-custom and custom makers that take advantage actual technological advances in modern metallurgy rather than refusing to move past 30+ year old technology. 440 series steels aren't bad steels (x50crmov15 and other similar steels are 440a and 440b analogues), but they're cheap and you're being ripped off if they're being used in any knife more than $50. I also hold a similar opinion to VG-10 but at least that's not dirt cheap to manufacture and heat treat so charging $100+ actually makes some sense in some cases.
Wüsthof knives are not that great in the first place. Especially the Ikon / Classic Ikons have only one benefit. Man can pinch them at the handle and have more comfortable leverage, while women can pinch the blade.
Wustof is the worst knife of the bunch. Balance, steel type etc matters 0 when you have to sharpen around the ungodly ugly full bolster. I wouldn’t spend $5 on it.