As a South American person, i find the exercise of dissecting aspects of SOTN and viewing them in a western view, to be very similar to the experience Ueda says he likes: To watch movies without subtitles. Sometimes not having the cultural background of a work of art can make it more beautiful to the viewer than if he had that background, and it reminds me of playing games on the ps2 back when I didn't have a clue on how the English Language functioned (back then there weren't many games translated in Portuguese, so we didn't understand shit). This experience is a big reason why I love Max Derrat analysis videos, as the experience of connecting games with other concepts enriches the experience more than what the author intended with the game. There is a quote from a Brazilian University professor of cinema that i like a lot, it goes like: "If my interpretation of a work is more interesting than the authors vision for it, then shame on the author"
That is a really good quote. Makes me wonder if thats the truth with dark souls... like is all the lore just nonsense with alittle continuity to make it seem like theres actually a story lol. They often say in interviews that they focus on gameplay first and the story is added at the end. How could there be such environmental story telling if there was never a plan on the story. Unless its added in later.
There's something specific about SotC's world. The hugeness and emptiness of it all invites a sense of wonder and unease for me. The developers and artists truly did a great job portraying a "forbidden" land, because it absolutely feels like the place you're exploring holds some dark history. A lot of the wild speculation and theorizing that has occurred over the years is definitely a product of that wonderful world design I think. Bringing in the cultural aspect of the creators and the intended audience is such an awesome point that I've never seen anyone mention before. Its such an important thing to keep in mind when analyzing any sort of media, and it often goes overlooked with these games. Honestly, I hope more people see these videos and don't take them the wrong way. I can easily see some people walking away from this analysis thinking that you're just trying to "spoil the fun", but I dont think thats the case at all. I think a lot of the beauty of Ueda's games are the bunches of different ways they've been interpreted, but taking a closer look at and explaining the author's intended message is so important. Acknowledging and disxussing how fan theories can spiral out of control at times is a really important too. Overall just a really great pair of videos that I desperately hope get some more attention.
I've seen this kind of media analysis with video games in other works, where the fans will desperately try and "solve" the plot as if it's a puzzle that demands you to solve it. You see it all the time with Dark Souls, and especially Elden Ring given how interwoven several lore elements are in ER in particular. What you end up getting though is a ton of people looking for what the game's story is saying purely in the context of the game's world (think only caring about Star Wars lore but not seeing how a ton of Star Wars stories can be commentaries applied to the real world) and not bringing in the fact that these games are made and influenced by the real world by real people. You can often bet that these sorta games have a metaphorical story to say, whether grand or intimate. As an example, I've often seen ICO be talked about as an allegory for escaping abuse given how Yorda and the Queen's relationship are extremely reminiscent of abuse if the more magical elements of their relationship are considered. Placing one's soul into the body of your children can be a stand-in for how abuse can be passed down generation by generation, with the unspoken implication that the Queen has been doing this for a while given how many sacrifices are done with horned children alone. Story done by implication and allegory, something that's difficult to only get out of a purely in-text analysis alone. SotC has always been an interesting game regarding "morality" given how it's considered forbidden to bring life back to the world, but it's totally acceptable to kill a woman because of the idea that she's cursed. Given how ICO is literally about a boy sent to die for being considered cursed, the game's already asking some pretty obvious questions regarding doing what's right and doing what's expected. But if you only analyze the game for what happens strictly in what's said or shown, you'll just arrive at a story of a man reviving his lover after making a deal with an otherworldy being. Doesn't add as much, does it? Another example would be Dark Souls. If you're strictly analyzing that franchise by its text alone, you'll simply arrive with a story that talks about how going against the natural order caused several kingdoms to fall into ruin, and how that defiance ended up dragging everyone in the game down with the admittedly human desire to not want things to end. But if you don't view the game as metaphorical for our own world, you might not take into account how the game is extremely critical of societal systems that don't work, how people, bodies and work are often exploited by those in arbitrary positions of power, or how the game intrinsically shows how playing into the system is both a necessity to survive and also an extremely efficient way of getting you to play by the rules of those in power. If that's not commentary for our own society's situation, I don't know what is tbh. Even the whole poster boy rep SotC and Ico got with the "are video games art" debate in the early 2000s gets misused as a another reason that there simply must be more to the game given how admittedly minimal its plot can be. That the plot within the game itself must be some coherent world setting with defined rules as opposed to often being more so akin to metaphors of what you would see in the real world. Something that's also just culturally odd is the western need to figure out the explicit meaning of a given work much to the point that you'll get some rather odd assertions that the medium must be viewed in a vacuum (good luck) or that deep reading analysis (etc: are the curtains blue for a reason) is at best speculative and not worth considering. This paradoxically causes people to admit that the story is "vague" but then say that it's vague for a purpose and that purpose is specifically to uncover the explicit and singular meaning behind it. It's hilariously inflexible and dogmatic and does the opposite of promoting discussion on average. Really glad this video puts the absurdity of these games' deep-diving into context.
Noticed the same thing with Returnal, a wonderfully metaphorical game which almost everyone acknowledges contains a lot of symbolism only for interpretations to boil down to "It's all in the main characters head" because that's the only way some people can make sense of it, rather than reading it on an allegorical level
I truly enjoyed both parts so thanks for working so hard on them! What I love about Shadow of the Colossus the most is that there is no truly correct interpretation of its lore; I strongly believe that Ueda's greatest accomplishment was keeping this narrative open-ended. Several years back, I read a wonderful guide on Gamefaqs that simply suggested what could have been the true nature of Wander's relationship with Mono (the guide was merely speculative but based on the very few facts that are presented upon a playthrough of the game). My interpretation is that Wander feels extreme guilt for Mono's sacrifice; while it truly doesn't matter whether or not he is indirectly or directly responsible for her death, I'd like to imagine that he is actually her executioner in the ritual. I do like to believe that Wander was extremely reluctant but ultimately was forced to fulfill this traditional sacrifice of Mono. This guilt causes Wander to be filled with unwaivering lament and sorrow which then transform into his motivation for restoring her Soul; Wander will then (steal) take the Ancient sword along with Mono's Soulless body to the forbidden land to atone for his previous actions by essentially sacrificing his Soul to restore Mono's after confronting Dormin. I'd like to think that it's simply a redemption story for Wander as I have no doubt that once Wander stepped into that temple, he was willing to do whatever it took to restore her soul, even if it meant giving up or sacrificing his own.
i appreciate your contribution to the conversation and i like some of your ideas, but others just make me sad lol. i like to imagine that ico and sotc are interlinked, that mono's cursed fate is becoming the queen in ico, that wander started the horned boys, that the colossus are living and intelligent beings, etc etc. it's fun to believe and it's fun to come up with theories and stuff.
I agree! I don’t think people diving deeper into all those things is them like, barking up the wrong tree or anything. People can interact with the game however they want and if that means finding enjoyment out of looking into those things, I don’t think that goes against the authors intention or is the “wrong” way to experience the game!
this video is criminally under viewed! totally agree, many of the SotC "interpretations" out there always seemed, well.. 'out there'. i didn't know really how to explain it but this video essay laid it all out perfectly. as an artist myself it always peeved me how much ppl were putting odd details on a pedestal that most likely wasn't Ueda's intention to begin with, leading to strange takeaways and interpretations. sometimes art is just meant to be experienced without it having some secret underlying meaning, or with a hidden "true" vision. idk thanks for putting out pt. 2 of this series! these have been great, hope to see more in the future :)
I think the way Ueds writes his stories so open ended is so the consumer can make their own theories up and speak with others about it to keep people talking about it for years. He understands this more than most videogame and movie/tv writers.
I think you in on it right there at the end: it’s in the spirit of the vision of these games for us each to have our own interpretations, and as such I don’t really see this lovely analysis as “poking the bear” at all-I see it as a valuable contribution to what we’re all doing here: engaging with, reflecting on, and, above all, really loving these games. Thanks for all your work on this!
Hungarian Nimród has nothing to do with the biblical Nimrod, though even most of the hungarians do not know this. Hungarian Nimród (Ménrót) is also a great hunter (and yes a giant), but they have nothing to do with each other, the two characters are only fused in many people's minds because of the similarity of their names and their profession. Nimród from the hungarian legend is the father of Hunor and Magor. Hunor was the forefather of the huns and Magor was the forefather of the hungarians (hungarians call themselves "magyar").
I absolutely adored this deep dive you did it was so well done. I also almost screamed when you mentioned Osiris because befor you mentioned him I kept thinking the dismemberment was a lot like his myth.
This is my favorite commentary on shadow of the colossus I’ve ever seen. I recently rediscovered the gave and have been watching a lot of UA-cam stuff about it. Yours is my fav. 😎
After thinking about it I kinda think you're underselling the importance of the collosi, I think I get were that came from though, it's a bit like how undertale fans really hate how sans received so much attention in fan projects I think, but there was reason for sans' popularity he was a complex and interesting character, so first of end of battle, I feel like this theme and the visuals usually acompinied with it explicitly imply you are supposed to care at least a little about killing the collossi, afterall why else would you explicitly have a sequence playing sad music over the death of one of these creatures, sure you could say it's about wander's quest but by the time it focusses on wander is when the triumphant(but not overly so) part starts to play, it does also play when wander dormin is being sucked into the pool wich to me kinda shows it is a theme of tragedy and hope, the first part of end of battle seems to represent tragedy(the death of a creature who was minding its own business and wander being sucked into the pool) but the second notable part represents hope of some kind(getting closer to reviving mono and wander being reborn), not to mention the collossi particularly ones like the second one make reasonably realistic sounds of an animal in pain, speaking off, I don't think the collosi are just automatons or extensions of dormin, I think 11 is the best example, 11 has a fear of fire wich can only be explained through it being like an animal, it is not an automaton assuming a defensive position due to recognizing a weakness and it would be pretty silly if a part of the powerful dormin would cower in fear of a tiny torch, apart from that the way they move is very animal like espescially when they try to shake you off, idk when I think automaton I think something like golems in fire emblem 3h, mechanical things with very basic attack procedures who can't think outside of that, the collosi very clearly display a level of behavior a robot or golem trying to eliminate an intruder wouldn't like how certain ones like the bird don't even attack you at first or how some will just kinda do their own thing until spotting wander, that said there is a common mistake people make in real life to and that is attributing human thoughts to animals, now I definitly believe we should treat animals fairly and not as lower beings but it is kinda true that animals don't operate on the same wavelenght as humans, animals mainly just aim to live while humans try to strive for something more, this mainly applies to the 16th who due to looking humanoid often gets human traits put on them, that said I think everyone is kinda missing the point, personally I don't think it is either, I think the collossi are these mystical creatures our simple mortal brains just don't fully understand, they are both building and organic, both animal and robotic in behavior, so I feel they aren't really either one, in conclusion I get were you are coming from with how it does suck that many people ignore wander's tale but it is wander AND the collosi, the collossi do matter and shouldn't be treated as just bosses there for the sake of being beaten like they are on the same level as a non koopa mario boss, even if they don't have real names most animals don't have that either, yet you can still feel bad for a rabbit run over by a car
I agree with you in this point. Even though I also think the collossi's souls were part of Dormin, the game is very clear in letting us know that each collosi has their own emotions and individuality. These creatures were by no means robots or souless beings.
I love that the secret seekers are a thing. I've always seen SotC as a story about man's unwillingness to let go, and it's just so fitting. Also I ship the 4th colossus with the 14th. How about you? Great videos, you've got my sub.
Babylon 5 had one episode that focused on a minor character who had devoted his life to be a Seeker of the Holy Grail. The character admits that it's entirely possible it doesn't exist, but the search itself has its own meaning, which is a philosophy i tend to apply to people like the Secret Seekers. The journey, in the end, is more important than the destination. Lot of very good points to be had here, especially the analysis of the Japanese cultural elements that a lot of westerners often overlook. I personally take Shadow of the Colossus as meditation media, like many world religion's scriptures are intended to be interacted with. It's a game where you should, as the protagonist's name implies, wander the forbidden lands. I find myself walking through the forest and the valley and the various temples, imagining who the previous inhabitants were and what relation they had to dormin and the colossi, knowing that the game itself doesn't hold those answers. Thanks for a great and insightful video 😊
A very well written and thorough discussion of the topic. I appreciate that some might disagree, perhaps with intensity, but I feel you were very respectful in how you expressed your ideas and they struck me as well thought out. I enjoyed this experience. It felt a bit like a discussion and I enjoyed and appreciate you sharing your perspective on this subject. Thank you.
As someone that has made a video on SotC, I was low-key sweating a bit, hoping I wouldn't be in your crossfire, luckily I am safe 😅 I think everything you said here was very fair and made a lot of sense, especially in regards to cultural bias. I'm not sure if I necessarily agreed with all of your conclusions, but I felt like knew where you were coming from and understood your point of view. I think the point that resonated the most, was the idea that somehow the game that we got, wasn't enough, which prompted so many fans to dig into the game to find some insane secret that would bust the whole thing wide open. I don't want to demean those people in any way, but I just don't vibe with that form of engaging with art. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for secrets or trying to uncover everything, but it really feels as if these individuals were missing the forest for the trees. The point of SotC was the experience that you shared with Wander, seeing his story to its conclusion and reflecting on how that made you feel after it's all said and done. I think this is why the game persists so much, for all intents and purposes, it's a simple tale, yet it manages to resonate so strongly because we truly feel that we're right there with Wander in wanting to see him bring his love back to life. Anyways, really great videos, I loved hearing your perspective and the passion you clearly have for Fumito Ueda's games.
The whole situation reminds of how internet horror degrades faster with each new trend. Creepypastas, Backrooms, analog horror. They all started pretty simple and to the point but over time feel the need for more, to expand and to connect. Creppypastas became shounen anime, Backrooms became resident evil 6 and Analog Horror became a endless sea of parodies of channel 58 with different flavors.
You should have more subs. i was introduced to sotc coming from the souls's games. I had completed the entire Fromsoft later library and was reading interviews Hidetaka Miyazaki and at the time only had a PlayStation 5. I keep reading about Ico and found out about sotc and played the remake. After that i had to play the original and got a backwards compatible ps3 cheap just to experience Ico and the Kingsfield games. I think my experience is kind of unique in that i missed out on all these games, and that i actually got back into gaming during start of the 9th generation of console and still managed to find myself... well here! There were a few times i stuck my head back in and seen games like gears of war, or something with QuickTime events and think okay Iam not missing much. If i had any idea that good games where still being made i would have jumped back in. Things i regret is missing out on are the multiplayer at the launch of the soul's titles. i did get to experience figuring out the penetrator armor hunt at the launch of demon's soul's remake. And some early Elden ring stuff, I can only imagine the fun I missed out on when the sotc remake was launched and the hunt for the sword. Anyway, thanks for the amazing content and the hard work you put into it. I agree that the game is a romance, having more context into the culture that the game was created by makes that clear. Perspective is everything... I often see my friends give everything to a relationship, willing to sacrifice everything to make someone love them. No matter the cost. Sometimes often unnoticed by the person that these sacrifices are meant to effect. I find it funny that most people focused on Agro Its like with everything else going on in this game... most people were more upset with what happens with Agro. All the human drama and Agro becomes the thing most people were upset about. It lead to trico... which is the weaker title.
I thought it was so obvious when I first played that they were lovers, and I don't understand why anyone wouldn't think the obvious thing. Subversion of expectation I guess..? But does that subversion of expectation make the story more interesting? In my opinion it does not. Nothing about the story really changes whether they are lovers or not.
I'm not gonna lie, watching this video made me feel a bit less enthusiastic about the lore and secret intentions of the creators behind this game. You made me see the obvious, Mr. Ueda and his team are all human beings inserted on their own context and we perceive only our interpretation of what they intended to convey with this game. I appreciate the honesty of Fumito Ueda but some things are better kept as a secret. However, this will never change the fact that for me, with all its simplicity and complexity, Shadow of the Collosus is the best game ever made. Btw, I just found your channel, watched all your SOTC videos and subscribed. Thanks for the great content, greetings from Chile.
The 3 games are pretty much the book of Enoch, the nephilim and the themes of Old Testament CHILD SACRIFICE. And some New Testament of how the devil can pretend to be an Angel of light.
I really like your style of analysis and you’ve earned a sub from me. In the defense of the secret seekers, i admire their passion for the mystery of the world of team ico, which honestly draws my attention more than anything as well. The world feels so big compared to us, as if anything could be in any corner and I think that’s so cool
I haven't played the games, but whi,e listening to this I had a thought about Dormin's "crime", what if it was the creation of life? He isn't resurrecting mono, he is creating new life in her. That is why it is referring as "restoring" her soul, rather than resurrecting her. And this is why the "evil" Dormin kept his word, he wanted to create new life, regardless. The colosus are alive because Dormin created life within them, they may originally have been just statues, but as Dormin's spirit remained in them, its will to create new life animated the colossus into this half-alive half-inanimate objects. The ending of shadow of the colossus has Dormin creating new life in the form of a new baby. I don't think that is Wander, I think it is new life, one born out of Dormin at the cost of Wander's life. In Ico the horned children are the decendants of life created by Dormin, who seem to have some sort of power normal people don't. Hence why they were sacrificed. Thinking of that, the collossus and the horned children seem to show that new life created by Dormin may have been threatening to normal humans, and that's why it was sealed, maybe they just didn't want Dormin to be allowed to create life that was deemed dangerous to humanity.
Always love your videos and the deep dives/explanations. I really like Ueda's approach to watching foreign films since this is something I've also done having grown up in a household that watched foreign films more frequently than American films growing up. I personally do this with videogames. I never played the western release of ico or shadow of colossus, instead my first time with ueda's game was through the japanese collectors edition of the games. Was I confused initially playing, yup, but by the end of the games it felt so natural that when I tried to play or watch the games in english it felt really weird, especially given that the ingame languages were supposed to place a degree of separation in terms of how you interpreted/interacted with the characters. It's also for this reason I love to play Gravity Daze over its western release, I can only superficially transliterate japanese characters, but the made up language nature makes the japanese narratively/functionally irrelevant so I can just have fun on the game and apparent narrative's terms, plus the comic nature of the presentation makes it's easily understandable on its own.
Also playing these games or watching foreign films makes me feel like when I was a little kid and the only thing that mattered was the game but my childhood wonder always made me imagine what it was about. Even Mario, my cousins and I made up headcanons for the powerups and stuff lol.
@@couchpotato3197 For sure Gravity Daze/Rush is underrated. It felt like a game that should’ve been made with the mechanical mindset of the 2000’s. I felt that it mainly failed for three reasons. 1. Poor marketing by sony; though this is true of a lot of games where either the parent company or the industry can’t see the value or just immediately expect to fail/want to fail; this is true even after moving it to the PS4 2. It was initially a vita release. From the sound of it, Gravity Daze was going to be a PS3 release initially but sony needed games to effectively pad the release of the vita. This did effect a lot of the development as it seems part of the reason the Gravity Daze 2 was made was to handle elements that had to be removed to accommodate the vita transition. 3. I would argue it was a non-nintendo qusi-platformer released in an industry saturated with shooters, mmos, online oriented games, etc (take your pick). Yeah it’s what the industry is willing pay for so can’t really say anyone is in the wrong or really needs to be, but its unique mechanics and presentation wasn’t the usual norm. I bought the vita just because I had incidentally been reading about the game on wikipedia (my wiki rabbit whole from astronomy to black holes haha).
I don't know how much of a say Ueda had on the localization of the title but I think it still fits in the context of it being Wander's story, it leaves Wander out / Wander has little to no consideration or care for his well being, it focuses only on the goal like Wander is doing, and it is what Wander ultimately becomes, it might not be *because* of this but the title can still be interpreted with the context given by the story As for the Colossi, I've played this game way too much growing up but idk I've never really felt remorse for them but I definitely felt something different, and if they're alive in an anthropomorphic sense or not doesn't really describe it that well, I feel for them as I do for the Forbidden Lands and to an extent Dormin themselves, they're something beautiful and otherworldly, so I get the focus on them in that sense at least Overall the atmosphere, the 'less' that this game had to offer was always what intrigued me about it along with the incredible art-style and game design
Really really enjoyed this video. I feel like there is a serious debate to be had on taking an artistic work as law and as seriously as the western fanbase has for this game. Obviously it was made by team of human beings and in a short time so it will be finite at some point. However, I do think it is valuable to see it as its own world and try to understand it as such. Diving into the deepest crevices and trying to understand every facet of the game. That is a testament to the authenticity and artistic design of Uedas games that people are so moved by them that they want to explore them this deeply. Just as you said near the end of the video, all interpretations of the work are valid as it is a piece intentionally made vague so we can fill our own experiences and perspectives into that blank space. I really enjoy Max Derrants musings on Uedas works as an interesting and more granular analysis and interpretation. However I do agree that the general idea of an empirical and "provable" interpretation of the game is incorrect and limiting. I have my own theories on the game (s), but they are very fluid in my mind as that ambiguity is part of what I love about them so much. It's an interpretive playground with a specific emotional tone and direction that I really enjoy occupying. I do agree that there seems to be a lack of willingness to allow the story and world to be unsolvable, and that leads to many passionate and interesting ideas. But ultimately there is no definitive interpretation or explanation of the game and presenting personal theories as such is counterproductive to the personalized nature of the work. I feel like you came down a little hard on some of these fans and seemed to object (at least in part) to some of their interpretations. I feel like what you were really bothered by was the way they were presented as THE interpretation of like game and like they were chipping away at some deeply entombed truth at its the center. I think the more american/western/christian lens of interpretation is really interesting, But I agree with you that it is not the "correct" way of understanding the game. Anyway, thank you for making this video. I know it is a lot of work to script, gather resources/video clips, and then edit it all and I benefitted from that effort. Helped remind me that the interpretive nature of the game is one of the reasons I love it so much. I had forgotten that during the engagement with the rigorous discourse surrounding the game.
I realise that Im a year too late but I just stumbled upon your videos. You did a fantastic job and I think that you provide a much needed "grounded" look on not only SotC but also games like Dark Souls. Sometimes a rock is just a rock (or a reused asset). It's fun to theorycraft, speculate and dig for cut content but people shouldn't take it all as facts. It's especially annoying in the soulsborn community with people coming up with ridiculous backstories for characters or objects using monumentaly stupid mental gymnastics. Like one guy who I won't name came up with entire history of demon civilization of Lost Izalith using cut content and presents it as gospel. Your points on culture shock were also very interesting for me - a Polish guy who's entire perception of USA comes from movies and while it's certainly closer to mine than Japanese culture is still pretty foreign. For example 99% of people that played SotC who I know assumed from the get go that Wander is in love with Mono. The way he touches her face- nobody here is so tender with siblings or friends. On the other hand the most popular view on colosi is that they existed before Dormin and aren't a part of him but were somehow corrupred. And this view doesn't come from a localization (we only have english version of the game from what I remember, at lest the original one, not sure about the remake) it's almost like a subconcious feeling. On subject of Dormin and Nimrod I can tell this much - as someone who likes to write short stories, often fantasy or sci fi, the names are probably the last thing I think about when creating a character. I often look for and use mythological or real life names that fit the character I already created. And I think it was the case here. Maybe Ueda looked for characters that got chopped into pieces and Nimrod showed up.
This is now my favourite channel for talk about these games. I've become so exasperated and annoyed by the constant SotC fanfiction treated as factual lore. I've seen some videos just blatantly make stuff up based on nothing. This video, and the part one, are absolutely brilliant because for the first time in years I've heard something DIFFERENT. Something that isn't based on flimsy connections and head-canmon, but instead based on the actual content of the game. And hearing about the game from a Japanese perspective is something I'd never heard about before and was really cool to have that cultural insight. For the first time in a very long time I'm walking away from a SotC video feeling like I've learned something new that will allow me to appreciate these games even more. Thank you for that. Please keep it up.
I just wanted to say thank you for this video. Ueda is one of my favorite creators of all time and he drives me to become a designer like him. I really appreciate the fact you drive home this is at the end of the day a Japanese game intended for a Japanese audience who understand these cultural view points and ways of interpreting art. I view this game as a tragic romance hence I love it so much. I really hope to see more videos really enjoyed this video essday.
I really admire the way you convey your ideas to the viewer, and ultimately, you gave a side of the story I've never would have know about if I had only continued analyzing from a western perspective. When I was a kid, I would watch many of Hayao Miyazaki's films with my sister. Many of the films from American we watched had complete finality to them, one's based on true events will often end with text on how their lifes go on to be. So when we watched the ending to most of his films, we were left with a sense of incompleteness, we were too intrance with the world and its characters to simply leave it open. This video really does go above and beyond for anyone who enjoys mediums outside their respect culture's. Sometimes in this video, I think about how sad it can be that so much could be lost in translation to the audience, and how frustrating that can be to a creator, but I guess it wouldn't be as great without that cultural difference, the moon would be a bit less interesting, if we all saw it the same way.
Nice SOTC videos. I love this game. I do agree a lot of people seem to have tried to stretch the story of this game to a point that tampers with the original in a way that’s kind of icky. I never liked naming the colossus but I found it’s tough to remember the sequence so even I have used the fan-made names I disliked to help me remember them and refer to them more easily. I make a point to compartmentalize fan fiction and what is actually in the game. Funny, the first time I played this it was so powerful in its artistic style, feelings it evoked, and the ending, I probably had the strongest reaction I’ve ever had to a game. My first play-through I had a sense of urgency to complete the task at hand and save Mono even though it was clear you had all the time you wanted. I quickly believed progressing the story was all to the game so much so that I only found some shining lizards and didn’t even know there was fruit to collect. When I finished it the ending kind of gutted me but blew me away at the same time. The uplifting music felt out of place, like the designer telling the player it’s going to be okay, while you’re still in the middle of being heartbroken and not ready to move on. It felt like there were questions unanswered but I also instantly felt, that’s the end and the story is absolutely complete. Bravo. It was more of my own sadness it was over than the tragedy of what happened to Wander. He’s ok, he’s either a dormin baby hybrid or he’s just marked forever. Everyone is alive. They’re clearly going to live on as the wildlife is evidence they can survive in this land. I didn’t go back to it and didn’t know there was time attack mode, or items to get. I think the designer did his job just right but like any creative, I’m not surprised if he second guesses himself. I replayed it years later as a way to remember it was really how I recall it. Truly great. I gave it enough time so that it was somewhat fresh again (not exactly remembering the ways to beat each colossus etc). Recently I’ve played the PS4 remake and am going the completionist route, all difficulty modes, all items and now I’m working on enlightenment tokens. I completely understand why people were seeking more from this game. It is a beautiful game, remastered or not. It’s worth dwelling in. I do think Westerners are a bit enthralled by the colossus more than Wander and his quest to save Mono. They are pretty cool. And who doesn’t love Agro, your only loyal AF companion on the journey. I like Dormin as a character more than Emon If I had to assign them I’m more inclined to see Dormin as “good” but different and threatening to humanity. And Emon as overstepping boundaries by believing he gets to decide what and who is right or wrong. Other than the obvious devil horns I don’t like to view the characters as good vs evil too much because Japanese works tend to blur that line with reason and I think it is meant to be that way. It’s unfortunate if Ueda feels he didn’t convey what he wanted people to get from the story, but I think if most of the Japanese audience and ones familiar with the culture got it, that’s enough. He should be proud, it is one of the all time best games ever. P.S. I am in the lovers camp. At the very least maybe her soul was taken before he could truly build a relationship with her and he felt he had to do something to make things right. Maybe they were unfinished and that was more compelling reason for him to feel strongly he has to do whatever it takes. That “right” was more right than any wrongs that could come from his actions to bring her back. I think love provides more conviction for his character to put everything on the line. It works best for the story. Anything else feels watered down and unsatifsfying. Who do you know who would risk their life for someone they are unattached to and not just that but throw away everything he may have left behind. This doesn’t feel like a simple act of heroism. Anything else would seem like we are overlooking the obvious. He’s so delicate with her. Give him credit for that. Poor Wander! Sorry but not sorry to people who think it can be otherwise ;)
I agree with your assessment about Emon; I can kinda see both sides - maybe he was trying to prevent what he saw as a catastrophe, though in the context of the story, it seems like it was inevitable, as sacrificed or not, her fate (for which, at least in the beginning, we have to take Emon’s word for, if taking SOTC as a standalone plot) was fulfilled. But overall, I see Dormin as neutral, since he gives Wander a chance to turn away and warns him there’s a price for his actions, even though Dormin has been sealed away for who knows how long, and who knows how much longer, if Wander did turn away. I wonder what actually *would* have happened if Dormin had been allowed to come back, and not immediately been sealed away again. Regarding the horns; some cultures see horns/horned people as sacred, not evil like Christians see the devil/satan. The game does seem to have Christian religious influences, and that’s where the “horns = evil” association comes from, but I don’t see the horned children as evil in themselves; they get used as sacrifices and vessels and are more like… servants, victims or even slaves; some who might, like Ico, try to break free from the tyranny of being commoditised.
Honestly, you didn't really offend me or my take on the game. In fact, I've largely came to the same conclusion. While I still feel sympathy for the colossi, the romance aspect was something I've always appreciated. Wander willing to destroy himself to bring back his lover always resonated with me, even though his actions were morally gray at best. And while I do really appreciate the people combing the game looking for secrets and finding unused stuff, a lot of it is simply just...there. No real big meaning behind it or anything. Still, the world of the Forbidden Lands has always been fascinating as both a place narratively, as well as in terms of general game design. I don't blame people wanting to search every nook and cranny. Also, as a recently converted Christian, it's interesting coming back to the game with a slightly different perspective. Putting aside all the potential symbolism, I loved how despite Wander essentially committing a lot of sinful behavior (idolatry being the chief amongst them) and trying to mess with the natural order, ultimately he is redeemed while still being punished for his actions. (Although in the case of the whole baptism argument, as I was told, the nature of baptism is supposed to be both an allegory for Jesus' death and resurrection as well as a public declaration of your commitment to God. It doesn't necessarily "purify" you or absolve you of sin as nothing can change what you're already done.) I think what's most interesting to me is even if Ueda didn't intend to put all this kind of stuff or imply anything, I can't help but feel that on some instinctual level we put in things that imply or suggest some religious connotation in our works without even realizing it because it's so deeply rooted in us as human beings to do so. A lot of the things that may seem intentionally put in are more than likely happy accidents and that's all they really need to be in my eyes.
good video but kinda disagree on two specific points, first I think that people can care just as much for a family member or friend as a lover, now that said I have had very little interest in romance even in real life so I'm kinda indifferent to it but even so I don't like the (probably unintentional) implication that romantic relationship inherently carry more weight than platonic ones like friends and family since a friend or family member can be just as important in someone's life as a lover, secondly I know this is very specific but even if the collosus's essence is stolen doesn't mean that killing them is justified, now this was a very specific point but it still kinda bothered me in a way as (in this take on the collosi) even if their energy isn't their own that doesn't mean they deserve to die, the only example that poppet into my head is from super paper mario so stick with me, in that game there is a character who was created using one of the pure hearts(the mcguffins if that game) and in order to stop the end of the world they have to take away her personhood to obtain the pure heart(though this is only at the time as later it is revealed she somehow survived though this moreso felt like they knew it might be to dark and put a bandate on it to make it less dark), and I think this is a good example of even though her essence is not her own and stolen from something else you could still say that essentially killing her or erasing her(for what you know at the time) isn't completely fair just because her essence isn't her own, I know very specific but idk that just kinda bothered me since in that take the collosi never came into existence of their own will so even if it is taking something back for dormin you are still taking a life created from something else even if it is a likely primal life
Yea, I've come to have something of a frustration with the "death of the author" concept. As true as it is that people will have their personal takes on a body of work, be it a game, film, or book, to treat your PERSONAL interpretation as the be all and end all is just ridiculous. I've had my own interpretations for Ueda's works, but I'd never insist my outlook on them was the only true way. As for the fans like the secret seekers, I do admire the passion for digging through every bit of code to find new things, but it's also a bit concerning how some people in that community are still expecting some monumental discovery for a nearly 20 year old game that not even the creator of the game has thought to tease or hint about. One would think Ueda would have come clean about such a thing by now, especially when one of his fellow creatives in the industry, Miyamoto, has openly claimed that there secrets about his works that players had yet to discover. All in all, it amazing how inspiring Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and even Last Guardian have been for people, and I have no doubt that the next game, whenever that comes out, will also be picked apart and analyzed for years after its release. That said, would be nice if more people could at least humor differing opinions/interpretations
Congrats. You made me watch through your, quite well made, videos till late after midnight. Great work, and deserve a lot more views on these. Did you study Ludology? And by that I don't mean in school, you mentioned English and Japanese in a previous video after all. I mean independently. Hobby? Just curious.
I just had a thought while thinking about your last video after watching this. The humans overstepping their bounds were Wander's people who tainted the earth with Dormin's essence giving (animalistic) supposed life to something that was never supposed to be. How the hell was none of that taboo lol? They controlled Dormin's soul to make some new form of life. The earth went through with Wander is going through (a piece of dormin + earth but earth isn't sentient) in a way Wander is indirectly purifying the land especially after he becomes almost purified himself. I love how ambugious even morality is in this game. It's all so tragic despite this and yet hopeful in the end.
I would love to hear your thoughts on The Last Guardians story. There is so much there that has not been touched on. I get most people enjoy SOTC and Ico more but TLG has not been discussed nearly enough.
I know I probably shouldn’t be commenting so early(I’m only 6 minutes in) but before I forget, I want to say that Death of the Author is a bit of a misleading title in that it implies the author’s interpretation/intent doesn’t matter. What I think is more akin to the truth is that fan interpretation is just as valid as the author’s. They are on equal ground. It’s not that the work is simply out of the authors hands, it’s out of everyone’s hands. It stands on its own now, it is simply the work and everyone, including the author, takes their own meaning from it. The intent of the author has importance, without it the work wouldn’t have been made, but it does not, nor should it, control other people’s views. Canon is just the largest known suggestion of events, the standard by which we branch off our head canons, it is not law by any means. (Again I am commenting early so if you get to this later, forgive me, as just felt it was too important to forget halfway into this video.) Edit: Yeah, I didn’t really need to make this comment after all. I feel like you understood that at heart, it just didn’t come across to me. I will add that I do see worth in preserving a cultural perspective on a work, especially its culture of origin. And I appreciate all the information you provided regarding common Japanese perspectives of this game, based on their cultural truths.
Wow, yes you've poked a lot of bears with this video. That's okay. It's always entertaining & dare I say it...informative to hear another persons perspective on this game especially when done intelligently. I've spent so many years ( & I'm not alone ) going on & on about how special this game is. That feeling still hasn't changed even after 17 years. There are many great & outstanding games, but there's only one "Shadow Of The Colossus".
Awesome video!! Awesome job!! And a big THANK YOU because if you haven’t spend time and dedication on this video it wouldn’t be so fun to watch. Greetings from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
I love your reviews!!! It also makes me happy to see another woman who likes SOTC. I remember being 14, and going with a friend and her mom to the local GameStop to buy a used copy of this game. I played it nonstop for years.
This video, and its predecessors (Part 1 and the Mono theory video) are a huge step forward for SotC analysis. Everyone else is sleeping on this. You've done a big service in challenging the questionable methods of the more popular analysis videos. We need to rethink SotC analysis with less focus on Western & Biblical cultural or mythological references/influence which are likely superficial in most cases. Japanese influence, although perhaps in an attenuated and subtle way rather than in the sense of overt references, probably merits more attention. The mentality of esoteric secret-seeking also should be reconsidered in light of the evidence that Ueda's design philosophy doesn't fit the assumptions. I also think people ought to make a more explicit distinction between theorizing that aims to discern Ueda's intentions and theorizing that doesn't, and the standards appropriate for each type may differ.
I think it's matter of perception and social norm. English for me is a side language i learned out of necessity because of video games, so for me the singular they was always there but has a different weight now
52:29 yeah... its thanks to these implications that makes me wish there was a more happy ending, if it was to have a tragic romance where they don't end up together then okay i can go with that, but if they will end up together either way and have decendents as the horned children then i would rather have the more normal conclusion where they just get together were the main tragedy would be Wander's corrupted and deformed state rather than the weird and creepy implication that Mono will both be a mother figure to newborn Wander, raising him but that also later down the line she will become his lover
I love this video but one thing, and this is just me personally i would definitely do this for my older brother, theres just a bond some siblings have that would make you go to these extents, i get your reasoning for thinking mono could be a lover but if youve ever had a special bond with a sibling youd definitely go to these lengths for them, just some food for thought
Not to be an ass but i think your comments about the community fall on deaf ears, i really liked the parts where you talked about your own interpretations backed up by the interviews tho, i mean the creator refuses to clear things up and he says "it's up to the player" that's basically saying that whatever the hell the player thinks can be canon, even if it's not their intention (within reason of the things they left in) that's why i dislike those types of stories but with Sotc he left so many loose ends and made so many things have incomplete/open meanings that just makes you want to fill in the gaps Many fans mainly focus on the bosses because they are center stage, the romance might be why Wonder starts the journey but what hooked most players was the bosses, the lore, and the scenery not exactly the romance You can see that in most reviews of the game they all are captivated by those things that they barely mention the romance other than at the beginning 33:33 Your frustration with the community is understandable but the fanbase has abandoned the creators intentions from the moment the secret seekers started 57:00 if the content other fans are making doesn't satisfy you, well you can always make your own content and find sources, I really would like to know more about the romance aspect but all the other creators are more focused on other stuff in the game 1:00:10 "because the studio can" so why can't the player do that as well? The creator said to take from the story what you want 1:02:19 "it's not where he is that is important, it's why he's there" Well many players chose the forbidden lands over the romance, including me The forbidden lands are much more interesting and mesmerizing tbh, I have spent so many hrs just exploring 1:03:30 same thing I say to you, it's a shame that we don't see things the same way 1:05:00 key to it all, most seekers were trying to find something no else had seen within the game, they wanted to find something a colossus/lore/models anything really, mostly a secret colossus And nomad colossus achieved all of those things he found many unseen things by hacking the game 1:07:10 game wasn't enough, well that's what happens when you start many threads and only solved some of the main ones and leave the rest unresolved while accidentally/unintentionally starting hundreds more in the process Leaving things incomplete will often make western fans fill in the gaps on their own if the author is unwilling to fill the gaps 1:09:10 it might not matter to you or the creator why things are the way that they are but as one of the secret seekers said, "whether or not it exists it does not matter. They have something to believe in and that's all they need" They are just trying to make sense of the things they left in the game and since most things don't have explanation or were chosen just for aesthetics that left many fans trying to make outside sources fit within the game to explain it, some stuff is very interesting even if it wasn't intended by the creator and makes the game more meaningful The creator set the foundation and then left the game incomplete and now the fan base is building something from the things that were left behind, i find a lot of the mythologies and info that the fanbase has added to the to be very amusing, it's like fanfic but using what was in the game as a base That's where I think the problem lies, the fanbase is making it sound to be true as to the intentions of the creator when most of the time things in the game were left there to be vague and look cool, in reality a lot of the theories are very creative and thought out fanfic I admire the dedication of the secret seekers because they reflect the mentality of the protagonist that refuses to take the simple answer and desperately looking for the truth that might or might not exist, in the case of sotc lore and mysteries the truth doesn't exist Same thing happened with Evangelion, that's why you shouldn't use symbols and references carelessly or people might use them to interpret stuff that wasn't intended by you as the creator The intended message of Evangelion is to try to live life and meet people even if you are afraid of getting hurt but it all gets obscured by the religious imagery Same with sotc, the intended message is the desperation and dedication of a guy that betrayed everything he was taught becoming a monster to save the woman he loves he knew what would happen to him and still did it but again that all gets obscured by all the religious imagery I find it hard to be sympathetic with both sotc and Evangelion creators, they know symbols and references are very important to other cultures but they just use it as decorations, i know the target audience was Japanese and that they thought nothing of the references but once it went to the west it was something much more meaningful because they used references the west would know I think it's fine, that's just the dilemma that comes with going global So as long as fans don't use their work to commit crimes against humanity or imply the author wanted to cause harm on humanity, it's fine You can either join the fanbases or just ignore them
i only just played the game this last month. and been doing deep dives, and i think i most agree with your takes. this world breeds conspiracy by nature and its peoples natural reaction to look for more.
I've come to pretty much the same conclusion. There is no deeper secret to the story. I do really enjoy the theories and hunting for easter eggs tho. It's fun. I don't believe that most of the theories are true, but it's fun to imagine and pretend.
I'm actually surprised that people have stuck with the 17th colossus thing for as long as they did. It really makes no narrative sense. If Dormin has been giving you hints this entire time to get you to free him, why would he hide a colossus from you?
Gaming in the early 2000's were way less understood and way more "ethereal" for people, a mix of innocence and the gap in knowledge creating stuff in people's mind. It's was the time were every game, factually or not, had a secret character or ending that demanded something hard or annoying to be unlocked. Me personally? before ever touching a GTA used to think all games were "open world" but you had to find a way to explore the area in some secret way, i used to think there were secret levels in the og Ben 10 game that would unlock the remaining alien transformations and i could go on all day.
Bit late but in games that are usually set around a number goal, eg 16 colossi there will always be people who will think there's an extra one that's hidden idk why this is but my guess is just that when you find something extra on top of what's numbered and given to you it seems like your own personal prize, for example for me it was in batman Arkham city, when that game came out I played it back to front non stop (still do) and I always wanted to find more villains that weren't in the game the main one being scarecrow because the game has you take down multiple villains some in the story and some as listed side missios, scarecrow was such a cool part of the first game (Arkham asylum) and has multiple Easter eggs hinting to him in Arkham city such as his hidden room inside a boat you can find hinting at his return and plan for the next game (Arkham knight) and 3 secret radio messages you can hear scarecrow read out where he says some numbers that correspond with the alphabet that give you phrases also hinting at the next game but that still wasn't enough for me I was convinced at the time these easter eggs where pointing to him being hidden in the game, so for 2 years id just be constantly going around the map everywhere looking for him, every nook of the map finding doors you couldn't open and thinking he might be there etc up until arkham knight was announced
While I personally really enjoy digging into every cranny of this game and and disagree with most of your takes, I really enjoyed these two videos! You present things well and I LOVE the Doll gimmick, new subscriber here!
For a video that is a statement against players jumping to conclusions about this game you very consistently jump to a lot of conclusions with little or flawed reasoning.
GlitterBerri is currently alive and active in the SotC community currently for anyone wondering
Maybe in Discord? How do you know?
@@haemmer they're in the Beyond The Forgotten Lands server
As a South American person, i find the exercise of dissecting aspects of SOTN and viewing them in a western view, to be very similar to the experience Ueda says he likes:
To watch movies without subtitles.
Sometimes not having the cultural background of a work of art can make it more beautiful to the viewer than if he had that background, and it reminds me of playing games on the ps2 back when I didn't have a clue on how the English Language functioned (back then there weren't many games translated in Portuguese, so we didn't understand shit).
This experience is a big reason why I love Max Derrat analysis videos, as the experience of connecting games with other concepts enriches the experience more than what the author intended with the game.
There is a quote from a Brazilian University professor of cinema that i like a lot, it goes like:
"If my interpretation of a work is more interesting than the authors vision for it, then shame on the author"
That is a really good quote. Makes me wonder if thats the truth with dark souls... like is all the lore just nonsense with alittle continuity to make it seem like theres actually a story lol. They often say in interviews that they focus on gameplay first and the story is added at the end. How could there be such environmental story telling if there was never a plan on the story. Unless its added in later.
There's something specific about SotC's world. The hugeness and emptiness of it all invites a sense of wonder and unease for me. The developers and artists truly did a great job portraying a "forbidden" land, because it absolutely feels like the place you're exploring holds some dark history. A lot of the wild speculation and theorizing that has occurred over the years is definitely a product of that wonderful world design I think.
Bringing in the cultural aspect of the creators and the intended audience is such an awesome point that I've never seen anyone mention before. Its such an important thing to keep in mind when analyzing any sort of media, and it often goes overlooked with these games.
Honestly, I hope more people see these videos and don't take them the wrong way. I can easily see some people walking away from this analysis thinking that you're just trying to "spoil the fun", but I dont think thats the case at all. I think a lot of the beauty of Ueda's games are the bunches of different ways they've been interpreted, but taking a closer look at and explaining the author's intended message is so important. Acknowledging and disxussing how fan theories can spiral out of control at times is a really important too.
Overall just a really great pair of videos that I desperately hope get some more attention.
I've seen this kind of media analysis with video games in other works, where the fans will desperately try and "solve" the plot as if it's a puzzle that demands you to solve it. You see it all the time with Dark Souls, and especially Elden Ring given how interwoven several lore elements are in ER in particular. What you end up getting though is a ton of people looking for what the game's story is saying purely in the context of the game's world (think only caring about Star Wars lore but not seeing how a ton of Star Wars stories can be commentaries applied to the real world) and not bringing in the fact that these games are made and influenced by the real world by real people.
You can often bet that these sorta games have a metaphorical story to say, whether grand or intimate. As an example, I've often seen ICO be talked about as an allegory for escaping abuse given how Yorda and the Queen's relationship are extremely reminiscent of abuse if the more magical elements of their relationship are considered. Placing one's soul into the body of your children can be a stand-in for how abuse can be passed down generation by generation, with the unspoken implication that the Queen has been doing this for a while given how many sacrifices are done with horned children alone. Story done by implication and allegory, something that's difficult to only get out of a purely in-text analysis alone.
SotC has always been an interesting game regarding "morality" given how it's considered forbidden to bring life back to the world, but it's totally acceptable to kill a woman because of the idea that she's cursed. Given how ICO is literally about a boy sent to die for being considered cursed, the game's already asking some pretty obvious questions regarding doing what's right and doing what's expected. But if you only analyze the game for what happens strictly in what's said or shown, you'll just arrive at a story of a man reviving his lover after making a deal with an otherworldy being. Doesn't add as much, does it?
Another example would be Dark Souls. If you're strictly analyzing that franchise by its text alone, you'll simply arrive with a story that talks about how going against the natural order caused several kingdoms to fall into ruin, and how that defiance ended up dragging everyone in the game down with the admittedly human desire to not want things to end. But if you don't view the game as metaphorical for our own world, you might not take into account how the game is extremely critical of societal systems that don't work, how people, bodies and work are often exploited by those in arbitrary positions of power, or how the game intrinsically shows how playing into the system is both a necessity to survive and also an extremely efficient way of getting you to play by the rules of those in power. If that's not commentary for our own society's situation, I don't know what is tbh.
Even the whole poster boy rep SotC and Ico got with the "are video games art" debate in the early 2000s gets misused as a another reason that there simply must be more to the game given how admittedly minimal its plot can be. That the plot within the game itself must be some coherent world setting with defined rules as opposed to often being more so akin to metaphors of what you would see in the real world.
Something that's also just culturally odd is the western need to figure out the explicit meaning of a given work much to the point that you'll get some rather odd assertions that the medium must be viewed in a vacuum (good luck) or that deep reading analysis (etc: are the curtains blue for a reason) is at best speculative and not worth considering. This paradoxically causes people to admit that the story is "vague" but then say that it's vague for a purpose and that purpose is specifically to uncover the explicit and singular meaning behind it. It's hilariously inflexible and dogmatic and does the opposite of promoting discussion on average.
Really glad this video puts the absurdity of these games' deep-diving into context.
Noticed the same thing with Returnal, a wonderfully metaphorical game which almost everyone acknowledges contains a lot of symbolism only for interpretations to boil down to "It's all in the main characters head" because that's the only way some people can make sense of it, rather than reading it on an allegorical level
I truly enjoyed both parts so thanks for working so hard on them! What I love about Shadow of the Colossus the most is that there is no truly correct interpretation of its lore; I strongly believe that Ueda's greatest accomplishment was keeping this narrative open-ended.
Several years back, I read a wonderful guide on Gamefaqs that simply suggested what could have been the true nature of Wander's relationship with Mono (the guide was merely speculative but based on the very few facts that are presented upon a playthrough of the game). My interpretation is that Wander feels extreme guilt for Mono's sacrifice; while it truly doesn't matter whether or not he is indirectly or directly responsible for her death, I'd like to imagine that he is actually her executioner in the ritual. I do like to believe that Wander was extremely reluctant but ultimately was forced to fulfill this traditional sacrifice of Mono. This guilt causes Wander to be filled with unwaivering lament and sorrow which then transform into his motivation for restoring her Soul; Wander will then (steal) take the Ancient sword along with Mono's Soulless body to the forbidden land to atone for his previous actions by essentially sacrificing his Soul to restore Mono's after confronting Dormin. I'd like to think that it's simply a redemption story for Wander as I have no doubt that once Wander stepped into that temple, he was willing to do whatever it took to restore her soul, even if it meant giving up or sacrificing his own.
i hope this channel gets more views someday. i’m currently working my way through the whole catalogue
same!
i appreciate your contribution to the conversation and i like some of your ideas, but others just make me sad lol. i like to imagine that ico and sotc are interlinked, that mono's cursed fate is becoming the queen in ico, that wander started the horned boys, that the colossus are living and intelligent beings, etc etc. it's fun to believe and it's fun to come up with theories and stuff.
I agree! I don’t think people diving deeper into all those things is them like, barking up the wrong tree or anything. People can interact with the game however they want and if that means finding enjoyment out of looking into those things, I don’t think that goes against the authors intention or is the “wrong” way to experience the game!
this video is criminally under viewed! totally agree, many of the SotC "interpretations" out there always seemed, well.. 'out there'. i didn't know really how to explain it but this video essay laid it all out perfectly. as an artist myself it always peeved me how much ppl were putting odd details on a pedestal that most likely wasn't Ueda's intention to begin with, leading to strange takeaways and interpretations. sometimes art is just meant to be experienced without it having some secret underlying meaning, or with a hidden "true" vision. idk
thanks for putting out pt. 2 of this series! these have been great, hope to see more in the future :)
I think the way Ueds writes his stories so open ended is so the consumer can make their own theories up and speak with others about it to keep people talking about it for years. He understands this more than most videogame and movie/tv writers.
i agree
I think you in on it right there at the end: it’s in the spirit of the vision of these games for us each to have our own interpretations, and as such I don’t really see this lovely analysis as “poking the bear” at all-I see it as a valuable contribution to what we’re all doing here: engaging with, reflecting on, and, above all, really loving these games. Thanks for all your work on this!
Shewhoshallnotbenamed really getting called out in this vid 😂
I loved her comment!
Hungarian Nimród has nothing to do with the biblical Nimrod, though even most of the hungarians do not know this. Hungarian Nimród (Ménrót) is also a great hunter (and yes a giant), but they have nothing to do with each other, the two characters are only fused in many people's minds because of the similarity of their names and their profession. Nimród from the hungarian legend is the father of Hunor and Magor. Hunor was the forefather of the huns and Magor was the forefather of the hungarians (hungarians call themselves "magyar").
I absolutely adored this deep dive you did it was so well done. I also almost screamed when you mentioned Osiris because befor you mentioned him I kept thinking the dismemberment was a lot like his myth.
This is my favorite commentary on shadow of the colossus I’ve ever seen. I recently rediscovered the gave and have been watching a lot of UA-cam stuff about it.
Yours is my fav. 😎
After thinking about it I kinda think you're underselling the importance of the collosi, I think I get were that came from though, it's a bit like how undertale fans really hate how sans received so much attention in fan projects I think, but there was reason for sans' popularity he was a complex and interesting character, so first of end of battle, I feel like this theme and the visuals usually acompinied with it explicitly imply you are supposed to care at least a little about killing the collossi, afterall why else would you explicitly have a sequence playing sad music over the death of one of these creatures, sure you could say it's about wander's quest but by the time it focusses on wander is when the triumphant(but not overly so) part starts to play, it does also play when wander dormin is being sucked into the pool wich to me kinda shows it is a theme of tragedy and hope, the first part of end of battle seems to represent tragedy(the death of a creature who was minding its own business and wander being sucked into the pool) but the second notable part represents hope of some kind(getting closer to reviving mono and wander being reborn), not to mention the collossi particularly ones like the second one make reasonably realistic sounds of an animal in pain, speaking off, I don't think the collosi are just automatons or extensions of dormin, I think 11 is the best example, 11 has a fear of fire wich can only be explained through it being like an animal, it is not an automaton assuming a defensive position due to recognizing a weakness and it would be pretty silly if a part of the powerful dormin would cower in fear of a tiny torch, apart from that the way they move is very animal like espescially when they try to shake you off, idk when I think automaton I think something like golems in fire emblem 3h, mechanical things with very basic attack procedures who can't think outside of that, the collosi very clearly display a level of behavior a robot or golem trying to eliminate an intruder wouldn't like how certain ones like the bird don't even attack you at first or how some will just kinda do their own thing until spotting wander, that said there is a common mistake people make in real life to and that is attributing human thoughts to animals, now I definitly believe we should treat animals fairly and not as lower beings but it is kinda true that animals don't operate on the same wavelenght as humans, animals mainly just aim to live while humans try to strive for something more, this mainly applies to the 16th who due to looking humanoid often gets human traits put on them, that said I think everyone is kinda missing the point, personally I don't think it is either, I think the collossi are these mystical creatures our simple mortal brains just don't fully understand, they are both building and organic, both animal and robotic in behavior, so I feel they aren't really either one, in conclusion I get were you are coming from with how it does suck that many people ignore wander's tale but it is wander AND the collosi, the collossi do matter and shouldn't be treated as just bosses there for the sake of being beaten like they are on the same level as a non koopa mario boss, even if they don't have real names most animals don't have that either, yet you can still feel bad for a rabbit run over by a car
I agree with you in this point.
Even though I also think the collossi's souls were part of Dormin, the game is very clear in letting us know that each collosi has their own emotions and individuality.
These creatures were by no means robots or souless beings.
I love that the secret seekers are a thing. I've always seen SotC as a story about man's unwillingness to let go, and it's just so fitting.
Also I ship the 4th colossus with the 14th. How about you? Great videos, you've got my sub.
Babylon 5 had one episode that focused on a minor character who had devoted his life to be a Seeker of the Holy Grail. The character admits that it's entirely possible it doesn't exist, but the search itself has its own meaning, which is a philosophy i tend to apply to people like the Secret Seekers. The journey, in the end, is more important than the destination.
Lot of very good points to be had here, especially the analysis of the Japanese cultural elements that a lot of westerners often overlook.
I personally take Shadow of the Colossus as meditation media, like many world religion's scriptures are intended to be interacted with. It's a game where you should, as the protagonist's name implies, wander the forbidden lands. I find myself walking through the forest and the valley and the various temples, imagining who the previous inhabitants were and what relation they had to dormin and the colossi, knowing that the game itself doesn't hold those answers.
Thanks for a great and insightful video 😊
A very well written and thorough discussion of the topic. I appreciate that some might disagree, perhaps with intensity, but I feel you were very respectful in how you expressed your ideas and they struck me as well thought out.
I enjoyed this experience. It felt a bit like a discussion and I enjoyed and appreciate you sharing your perspective on this subject. Thank you.
As someone that has made a video on SotC, I was low-key sweating a bit, hoping I wouldn't be in your crossfire, luckily I am safe 😅
I think everything you said here was very fair and made a lot of sense, especially in regards to cultural bias. I'm not sure if I necessarily agreed with all of your conclusions, but I felt like knew where you were coming from and understood your point of view. I think the point that resonated the most, was the idea that somehow the game that we got, wasn't enough, which prompted so many fans to dig into the game to find some insane secret that would bust the whole thing wide open. I don't want to demean those people in any way, but I just don't vibe with that form of engaging with art. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking for secrets or trying to uncover everything, but it really feels as if these individuals were missing the forest for the trees. The point of SotC was the experience that you shared with Wander, seeing his story to its conclusion and reflecting on how that made you feel after it's all said and done. I think this is why the game persists so much, for all intents and purposes, it's a simple tale, yet it manages to resonate so strongly because we truly feel that we're right there with Wander in wanting to see him bring his love back to life.
Anyways, really great videos, I loved hearing your perspective and the passion you clearly have for Fumito Ueda's games.
The whole situation reminds of how internet horror degrades faster with each new trend. Creepypastas, Backrooms, analog horror. They all started pretty simple and to the point but over time feel the need for more, to expand and to connect. Creppypastas became shounen anime, Backrooms became resident evil 6 and Analog Horror became a endless sea of parodies of channel 58 with different flavors.
You should have more subs. i was introduced to sotc coming from the souls's games. I had completed the entire Fromsoft later library and was reading interviews Hidetaka Miyazaki and at the time only had a PlayStation 5. I keep reading about Ico and found out about sotc and played the remake. After that i had to play the original and got a backwards compatible ps3 cheap just to experience Ico and the Kingsfield games. I think my experience is kind of unique in that i missed out on all these games, and that i actually got back into gaming during start of the 9th generation of console and still managed to find myself... well here! There were a few times i stuck my head back in and seen games like gears of war, or something with QuickTime events and think okay Iam not missing much. If i had any idea that good games where still being made i would have jumped back in. Things i regret is missing out on are the multiplayer at the launch of the soul's titles. i did get to experience figuring out the penetrator armor hunt at the launch of demon's soul's remake. And some early Elden ring stuff, I can only imagine the fun I missed out on when the sotc remake was launched and the hunt for the sword. Anyway, thanks for the amazing content and the hard work you put into it. I agree that the game is a romance, having more context into the culture that the game was created by makes that clear. Perspective is everything... I often see my friends give everything to a relationship, willing to sacrifice everything to make someone love them. No matter the cost. Sometimes often unnoticed by the person that these sacrifices are meant to effect. I find it funny that most people focused on Agro Its like with everything else going on in this game... most people were more upset with what happens with Agro. All the human drama and Agro becomes the thing most people were upset about. It lead to trico... which is the weaker title.
Why wouldn't friends go through all this to save a friend? I never saw them as lovers. Anyway great video.
Or a sibling she said lol
I thought it was so obvious when I first played that they were lovers, and I don't understand why anyone wouldn't think the obvious thing. Subversion of expectation I guess..? But does that subversion of expectation make the story more interesting? In my opinion it does not. Nothing about the story really changes whether they are lovers or not.
@@Gigcac that was not my question
I'm not gonna lie, watching this video made me feel a bit less enthusiastic about the lore and secret intentions of the creators behind this game. You made me see the obvious, Mr. Ueda and his team are all human beings inserted on their own context and we perceive only our interpretation of what they intended to convey with this game. I appreciate the honesty of Fumito Ueda but some things are better kept as a secret.
However, this will never change the fact that for me, with all its simplicity and complexity, Shadow of the Collosus is the best game ever made.
Btw, I just found your channel, watched all your SOTC videos and subscribed.
Thanks for the great content, greetings from Chile.
The 3 games are pretty much the book of Enoch, the nephilim and the themes of Old Testament CHILD SACRIFICE. And some New Testament of how the devil can pretend to be an Angel of light.
I really like your style of analysis and you’ve earned a sub from me. In the defense of the secret seekers, i admire their passion for the mystery of the world of team ico, which honestly draws my attention more than anything as well. The world feels so big compared to us, as if anything could be in any corner and I think that’s so cool
I haven't played the games, but whi,e listening to this I had a thought about Dormin's "crime", what if it was the creation of life?
He isn't resurrecting mono, he is creating new life in her. That is why it is referring as "restoring" her soul, rather than resurrecting her. And this is why the "evil" Dormin kept his word, he wanted to create new life, regardless.
The colosus are alive because Dormin created life within them, they may originally have been just statues, but as Dormin's spirit remained in them, its will to create new life animated the colossus into this half-alive half-inanimate objects.
The ending of shadow of the colossus has Dormin creating new life in the form of a new baby. I don't think that is Wander, I think it is new life, one born out of Dormin at the cost of Wander's life. In Ico the horned children are the decendants of life created by Dormin, who seem to have some sort of power normal people don't. Hence why they were sacrificed.
Thinking of that, the collossus and the horned children seem to show that new life created by Dormin may have been threatening to normal humans, and that's why it was sealed, maybe they just didn't want Dormin to be allowed to create life that was deemed dangerous to humanity.
Always love your videos and the deep dives/explanations. I really like Ueda's approach to watching foreign films since this is something I've also done having grown up in a household that watched foreign films more frequently than American films growing up. I personally do this with videogames. I never played the western release of ico or shadow of colossus, instead my first time with ueda's game was through the japanese collectors edition of the games. Was I confused initially playing, yup, but by the end of the games it felt so natural that when I tried to play or watch the games in english it felt really weird, especially given that the ingame languages were supposed to place a degree of separation in terms of how you interpreted/interacted with the characters. It's also for this reason I love to play Gravity Daze over its western release, I can only superficially transliterate japanese characters, but the made up language nature makes the japanese narratively/functionally irrelevant so I can just have fun on the game and apparent narrative's terms, plus the comic nature of the presentation makes it's easily understandable on its own.
I love Gravity Rush so much no one talks about it enough!
Also playing these games or watching foreign films makes me feel like when I was a little kid and the only thing that mattered was the game but my childhood wonder always made me imagine what it was about. Even Mario, my cousins and I made up headcanons for the powerups and stuff lol.
@@couchpotato3197 For sure Gravity Daze/Rush is underrated. It felt like a game that should’ve been made with the mechanical mindset of the 2000’s. I felt that it mainly failed for three reasons.
1. Poor marketing by sony; though this is true of a lot of games where either the parent company or the industry can’t see the value or just immediately expect to fail/want to fail; this is true even after moving it to the PS4
2. It was initially a vita release. From the sound of it, Gravity Daze was going to be a PS3 release initially but sony needed games to effectively pad the release of the vita. This did effect a lot of the development as it seems part of the reason the Gravity Daze 2 was made was to handle elements that had to be removed to accommodate the vita transition.
3. I would argue it was a non-nintendo qusi-platformer released in an industry saturated with shooters, mmos, online oriented games, etc (take your pick). Yeah it’s what the industry is willing pay for so can’t really say anyone is in the wrong or really needs to be, but its unique mechanics and presentation wasn’t the usual norm.
I bought the vita just because I had incidentally been reading about the game on wikipedia (my wiki rabbit whole from astronomy to black holes haha).
I don't know how much of a say Ueda had on the localization of the title but I think it still fits in the context of it being Wander's story, it leaves Wander out / Wander has little to no consideration or care for his well being, it focuses only on the goal like Wander is doing, and it is what Wander ultimately becomes, it might not be *because* of this but the title can still be interpreted with the context given by the story
As for the Colossi, I've played this game way too much growing up but idk I've never really felt remorse for them but I definitely felt something different, and if they're alive in an anthropomorphic sense or not doesn't really describe it that well, I feel for them as I do for the Forbidden Lands and to an extent Dormin themselves, they're something beautiful and otherworldly, so I get the focus on them in that sense at least
Overall the atmosphere, the 'less' that this game had to offer was always what intrigued me about it along with the incredible art-style and game design
Really really enjoyed this video. I feel like there is a serious debate to be had on taking an artistic work as law and as seriously as the western fanbase has for this game. Obviously it was made by team of human beings and in a short time so it will be finite at some point. However, I do think it is valuable to see it as its own world and try to understand it as such. Diving into the deepest crevices and trying to understand every facet of the game. That is a testament to the authenticity and artistic design of Uedas games that people are so moved by them that they want to explore them this deeply.
Just as you said near the end of the video, all interpretations of the work are valid as it is a piece intentionally made vague so we can fill our own experiences and perspectives into that blank space. I really enjoy Max Derrants musings on Uedas works as an interesting and more granular analysis and interpretation.
However I do agree that the general idea of an empirical and "provable" interpretation of the game is incorrect and limiting. I have my own theories on the game (s), but they are very fluid in my mind as that ambiguity is part of what I love about them so much. It's an interpretive playground with a specific emotional tone and direction that I really enjoy occupying.
I do agree that there seems to be a lack of willingness to allow the story and world to be unsolvable, and that leads to many passionate and interesting ideas. But ultimately there is no definitive interpretation or explanation of the game and presenting personal theories as such is counterproductive to the personalized nature of the work.
I feel like you came down a little hard on some of these fans and seemed to object (at least in part) to some of their interpretations. I feel like what you were really bothered by was the way they were presented as THE interpretation of like game and like they were chipping away at some deeply entombed truth at its the center. I think the more american/western/christian lens of interpretation is really interesting, But I agree with you that it is not the "correct" way of understanding the game.
Anyway, thank you for making this video. I know it is a lot of work to script, gather resources/video clips, and then edit it all and I benefitted from that effort. Helped remind me that the interpretive nature of the game is one of the reasons I love it so much. I had forgotten that during the engagement with the rigorous discourse surrounding the game.
I realise that Im a year too late but I just stumbled upon your videos. You did a fantastic job and I think that you provide a much needed "grounded" look on not only SotC but also games like Dark Souls.
Sometimes a rock is just a rock (or a reused asset). It's fun to theorycraft, speculate and dig for cut content but people shouldn't take it all as facts. It's especially annoying in the soulsborn community with people coming up with ridiculous backstories for characters or objects using monumentaly stupid mental gymnastics. Like one guy who I won't name came up with entire history of demon civilization of Lost Izalith using cut content and presents it as gospel.
Your points on culture shock were also very interesting for me - a Polish guy who's entire perception of USA comes from movies and while it's certainly closer to mine than Japanese culture is still pretty foreign. For example 99% of people that played SotC who I know assumed from the get go that Wander is in love with Mono. The way he touches her face- nobody here is so tender with siblings or friends. On the other hand the most popular view on colosi is that they existed before Dormin and aren't a part of him but were somehow corrupred. And this view doesn't come from a localization (we only have english version of the game from what I remember, at lest the original one, not sure about the remake) it's almost like a subconcious feeling.
On subject of Dormin and Nimrod I can tell this much - as someone who likes to write short stories, often fantasy or sci fi, the names are probably the last thing I think about when creating a character. I often look for and use mythological or real life names that fit the character I already created. And I think it was the case here. Maybe Ueda looked for characters that got chopped into pieces and Nimrod showed up.
A game that sees you spending the whole time trying your best to hold on, then at the end it forces you to let go.
Singular.
This is now my favourite channel for talk about these games. I've become so exasperated and annoyed by the constant SotC fanfiction treated as factual lore. I've seen some videos just blatantly make stuff up based on nothing.
This video, and the part one, are absolutely brilliant because for the first time in years I've heard something DIFFERENT. Something that isn't based on flimsy connections and head-canmon, but instead based on the actual content of the game. And hearing about the game from a Japanese perspective is something I'd never heard about before and was really cool to have that cultural insight.
For the first time in a very long time I'm walking away from a SotC video feeling like I've learned something new that will allow me to appreciate these games even more. Thank you for that. Please keep it up.
I just wanted to say thank you for this video. Ueda is one of my favorite creators of all time and he drives me to become a designer like him. I really appreciate the fact you drive home this is at the end of the day a Japanese game intended for a Japanese audience who understand these cultural view points and ways of interpreting art. I view this game as a tragic romance hence I love it so much. I really hope to see more videos really enjoyed this video essday.
I really admire the way you convey your ideas to the viewer, and ultimately, you gave a side of the story I've never would have know about if I had only continued analyzing from a western perspective. When I was a kid, I would watch many of Hayao Miyazaki's films with my sister. Many of the films from American we watched had complete finality to them, one's based on true events will often end with text on how their lifes go on to be. So when we watched the ending to most of his films, we were left with a sense of incompleteness, we were too intrance with the world and its characters to simply leave it open. This video really does go above and beyond for anyone who enjoys mediums outside their respect culture's. Sometimes in this video, I think about how sad it can be that so much could be lost in translation to the audience, and how frustrating that can be to a creator, but I guess it wouldn't be as great without that cultural difference, the moon would be a bit less interesting, if we all saw it the same way.
Nice SOTC videos. I love this game. I do agree a lot of people seem to have tried to stretch the story of this game to a point that tampers with the original in a way that’s kind of icky. I never liked naming the colossus but I found it’s tough to remember the sequence so even I have used the fan-made names I disliked to help me remember them and refer to them more easily. I make a point to compartmentalize fan fiction and what is actually in the game. Funny, the first time I played this it was so powerful in its artistic style, feelings it evoked, and the ending, I probably had the strongest reaction I’ve ever had to a game. My first play-through I had a sense of urgency to complete the task at hand and save Mono even though it was clear you had all the time you wanted. I quickly believed progressing the story was all to the game so much so that I only found some shining lizards and didn’t even know there was fruit to collect. When I finished it the ending kind of gutted me but blew me away at the same time. The uplifting music felt out of place, like the designer telling the player it’s going to be okay, while you’re still in the middle of being heartbroken and not ready to move on. It felt like there were questions unanswered but I also instantly felt, that’s the end and the story is absolutely complete. Bravo. It was more of my own sadness it was over than the tragedy of what happened to Wander. He’s ok, he’s either a dormin baby hybrid or he’s just marked forever. Everyone is alive. They’re clearly going to live on as the wildlife is evidence they can survive in this land. I didn’t go back to it and didn’t know there was time attack mode, or items to get. I think the designer did his job just right but like any creative, I’m not surprised if he second guesses himself. I replayed it years later as a way to remember it was really how I recall it. Truly great. I gave it enough time so that it was somewhat fresh again (not exactly remembering the ways to beat each colossus etc). Recently I’ve played the PS4 remake and am going the completionist route, all difficulty modes, all items and now I’m working on enlightenment tokens. I completely understand why people were seeking more from this game. It is a beautiful game, remastered or not. It’s worth dwelling in. I do think Westerners are a bit enthralled by the colossus more than Wander and his quest to save Mono. They are pretty cool. And who doesn’t love Agro, your only loyal AF companion on the journey. I like Dormin as a character more than Emon If I had to assign them I’m more inclined to see Dormin as “good” but different and threatening to humanity. And Emon as overstepping boundaries by believing he gets to decide what and who is right or wrong. Other than the obvious devil horns I don’t like to view the characters as good vs evil too much because Japanese works tend to blur that line with reason and I think it is meant to be that way. It’s unfortunate if Ueda feels he didn’t convey what he wanted people to get from the story, but I think if most of the Japanese audience and ones familiar with the culture got it, that’s enough. He should be proud, it is one of the all time best games ever.
P.S. I am in the lovers camp. At the very least maybe her soul was taken before he could truly build a relationship with her and he felt he had to do something to make things right. Maybe they were unfinished and that was more compelling reason for him to feel strongly he has to do whatever it takes. That “right” was more right than any wrongs that could come from his actions to bring her back. I think love provides more conviction for his character to put everything on the line. It works best for the story. Anything else feels watered down and unsatifsfying. Who do you know who would risk their life for someone they are unattached to and not just that but throw away everything he may have left behind. This doesn’t feel like a simple act of heroism. Anything else would seem like we are overlooking the obvious. He’s so delicate with her. Give him credit for that. Poor Wander! Sorry but not sorry to people who think it can be otherwise ;)
I agree with your assessment about Emon; I can kinda see both sides - maybe he was trying to prevent what he saw as a catastrophe, though in the context of the story, it seems like it was inevitable, as sacrificed or not, her fate (for which, at least in the beginning, we have to take Emon’s word for, if taking SOTC as a standalone plot) was fulfilled.
But overall, I see Dormin as neutral, since he gives Wander a chance to turn away and warns him there’s a price for his actions, even though Dormin has been sealed away for who knows how long, and who knows how much longer, if Wander did turn away.
I wonder what actually *would* have happened if Dormin had been allowed to come back, and not immediately been sealed away again.
Regarding the horns; some cultures see horns/horned people as sacred, not evil like Christians see the devil/satan. The game does seem to have Christian religious influences, and that’s where the “horns = evil” association comes from, but I don’t see the horned children as evil in themselves; they get used as sacrifices and vessels and are more like… servants, victims or even slaves; some who might, like Ico, try to break free from the tyranny of being commoditised.
Just found you channel and I love you analysis! You have a new follower. Also, GlitterBerri announced her comeback about a month ago!
Honestly, you didn't really offend me or my take on the game. In fact, I've largely came to the same conclusion. While I still feel sympathy for the colossi, the romance aspect was something I've always appreciated. Wander willing to destroy himself to bring back his lover always resonated with me, even though his actions were morally gray at best.
And while I do really appreciate the people combing the game looking for secrets and finding unused stuff, a lot of it is simply just...there. No real big meaning behind it or anything. Still, the world of the Forbidden Lands has always been fascinating as both a place narratively, as well as in terms of general game design. I don't blame people wanting to search every nook and cranny.
Also, as a recently converted Christian, it's interesting coming back to the game with a slightly different perspective. Putting aside all the potential symbolism, I loved how despite Wander essentially committing a lot of sinful behavior (idolatry being the chief amongst them) and trying to mess with the natural order, ultimately he is redeemed while still being punished for his actions. (Although in the case of the whole baptism argument, as I was told, the nature of baptism is supposed to be both an allegory for Jesus' death and resurrection as well as a public declaration of your commitment to God. It doesn't necessarily "purify" you or absolve you of sin as nothing can change what you're already done.)
I think what's most interesting to me is even if Ueda didn't intend to put all this kind of stuff or imply anything, I can't help but feel that on some instinctual level we put in things that imply or suggest some religious connotation in our works without even realizing it because it's so deeply rooted in us as human beings to do so. A lot of the things that may seem intentionally put in are more than likely happy accidents and that's all they really need to be in my eyes.
good video but kinda disagree on two specific points, first I think that people can care just as much for a family member or friend as a lover, now that said I have had very little interest in romance even in real life so I'm kinda indifferent to it but even so I don't like the (probably unintentional) implication that romantic relationship inherently carry more weight than platonic ones like friends and family since a friend or family member can be just as important in someone's life as a lover, secondly I know this is very specific but even if the collosus's essence is stolen doesn't mean that killing them is justified, now this was a very specific point but it still kinda bothered me in a way as (in this take on the collosi) even if their energy isn't their own that doesn't mean they deserve to die, the only example that poppet into my head is from super paper mario so stick with me, in that game there is a character who was created using one of the pure hearts(the mcguffins if that game) and in order to stop the end of the world they have to take away her personhood to obtain the pure heart(though this is only at the time as later it is revealed she somehow survived though this moreso felt like they knew it might be to dark and put a bandate on it to make it less dark), and I think this is a good example of even though her essence is not her own and stolen from something else you could still say that essentially killing her or erasing her(for what you know at the time) isn't completely fair just because her essence isn't her own, I know very specific but idk that just kinda bothered me since in that take the collosi never came into existence of their own will so even if it is taking something back for dormin you are still taking a life created from something else even if it is a likely primal life
Yea, I've come to have something of a frustration with the "death of the author" concept. As true as it is that people will have their personal takes on a body of work, be it a game, film, or book, to treat your PERSONAL interpretation as the be all and end all is just ridiculous. I've had my own interpretations for Ueda's works, but I'd never insist my outlook on them was the only true way. As for the fans like the secret seekers, I do admire the passion for digging through every bit of code to find new things, but it's also a bit concerning how some people in that community are still expecting some monumental discovery for a nearly 20 year old game that not even the creator of the game has thought to tease or hint about. One would think Ueda would have come clean about such a thing by now, especially when one of his fellow creatives in the industry, Miyamoto, has openly claimed that there secrets about his works that players had yet to discover. All in all, it amazing how inspiring Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and even Last Guardian have been for people, and I have no doubt that the next game, whenever that comes out, will also be picked apart and analyzed for years after its release. That said, would be nice if more people could at least humor differing opinions/interpretations
Congrats. You made me watch through your, quite well made, videos till late after midnight. Great work, and deserve a lot more views on these.
Did you study Ludology? And by that I don't mean in school, you mentioned English and Japanese in a previous video after all. I mean independently. Hobby? Just curious.
I just had a thought while thinking about your last video after watching this. The humans overstepping their bounds were Wander's people who tainted the earth with Dormin's essence giving (animalistic) supposed life to something that was never supposed to be. How the hell was none of that taboo lol? They controlled Dormin's soul to make some new form of life. The earth went through with Wander is going through (a piece of dormin + earth but earth isn't sentient) in a way Wander is indirectly purifying the land especially after he becomes almost purified himself. I love how ambugious even morality is in this game. It's all so tragic despite this and yet hopeful in the end.
I would love to hear your thoughts on The Last Guardians story. There is so much there that has not been touched on. I get most people enjoy SOTC and Ico more but TLG has not been discussed nearly enough.
This deserves way more views straight up
I know I probably shouldn’t be commenting so early(I’m only 6 minutes in) but before I forget, I want to say that Death of the Author is a bit of a misleading title in that it implies the author’s interpretation/intent doesn’t matter. What I think is more akin to the truth is that fan interpretation is just as valid as the author’s. They are on equal ground. It’s not that the work is simply out of the authors hands, it’s out of everyone’s hands. It stands on its own now, it is simply the work and everyone, including the author, takes their own meaning from it. The intent of the author has importance, without it the work wouldn’t have been made, but it does not, nor should it, control other people’s views. Canon is just the largest known suggestion of events, the standard by which we branch off our head canons, it is not law by any means. (Again I am commenting early so if you get to this later, forgive me, as just felt it was too important to forget halfway into this video.)
Edit: Yeah, I didn’t really need to make this comment after all. I feel like you understood that at heart, it just didn’t come across to me. I will add that I do see worth in preserving a cultural perspective on a work, especially its culture of origin. And I appreciate all the information you provided regarding common Japanese perspectives of this game, based on their cultural truths.
Kinda touching on this later in the video but I’m not doing a complete death of the author take here
Wow, yes you've poked a lot of bears with this video. That's okay. It's always entertaining & dare I say it...informative to hear another persons perspective on this game especially when done intelligently. I've spent so many years ( & I'm not alone ) going on & on about how special this game is. That feeling still hasn't changed even after 17 years. There are many great & outstanding games, but there's only one "Shadow Of The Colossus".
Awesome video!! Awesome job!! And a big THANK YOU because if you haven’t spend time and dedication on this video it wouldn’t be so fun to watch. Greetings from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
I love your reviews!!! It also makes me happy to see another woman who likes SOTC. I remember being 14, and going with a friend and her mom to the local GameStop to buy a used copy of this game. I played it nonstop for years.
Hey girl! Love your video. Keep it up no matter what!
This video, and its predecessors (Part 1 and the Mono theory video) are a huge step forward for SotC analysis. Everyone else is sleeping on this. You've done a big service in challenging the questionable methods of the more popular analysis videos. We need to rethink SotC analysis with less focus on Western & Biblical cultural or mythological references/influence which are likely superficial in most cases. Japanese influence, although perhaps in an attenuated and subtle way rather than in the sense of overt references, probably merits more attention. The mentality of esoteric secret-seeking also should be reconsidered in light of the evidence that Ueda's design philosophy doesn't fit the assumptions. I also think people ought to make a more explicit distinction between theorizing that aims to discern Ueda's intentions and theorizing that doesn't, and the standards appropriate for each type may differ.
It's amazing and unfortunate how people are only becoming aware of singular they nowadays when it's always been a thing in Modern English
I think it's matter of perception and social norm. English for me is a side language i learned out of necessity because of video games, so for me the singular they was always there but has a different weight now
52:29 yeah... its thanks to these implications that makes me wish there was a more happy ending, if it was to have a tragic romance where they don't end up together then okay i can go with that, but if they will end up together either way and have decendents as the horned children then i would rather have the more normal conclusion where they just get together were the main tragedy would be Wander's corrupted and deformed state rather than the weird and creepy implication that Mono will both be a mother figure to newborn Wander, raising him but that also later down the line she will become his lover
I love this video but one thing, and this is just me personally i would definitely do this for my older brother, theres just a bond some siblings have that would make you go to these extents, i get your reasoning for thinking mono could be a lover but if youve ever had a special bond with a sibling youd definitely go to these lengths for them, just some food for thought
Not to be an ass but i think your comments about the community fall on deaf ears, i really liked the parts where you talked about your own interpretations backed up by the interviews tho, i mean the creator refuses to clear things up and he says "it's up to the player" that's basically saying that whatever the hell the player thinks can be canon, even if it's not their intention (within reason of the things they left in)
that's why i dislike those types of stories but with Sotc he left so many loose ends and made so many things have incomplete/open meanings that just makes you want to fill in the gaps
Many fans mainly focus on the bosses because they are center stage, the romance might be why Wonder starts the journey but what hooked most players was the bosses, the lore, and the scenery not exactly the romance
You can see that in most reviews of the game they all are captivated by those things that they barely mention the romance other than at the beginning
33:33 Your frustration with the community is understandable but the fanbase has abandoned the creators intentions from the moment the secret seekers started
57:00 if the content other fans are making doesn't satisfy you, well you can always make your own content and find sources, I really would like to know more about the romance aspect but all the other creators are more focused on other stuff in the game
1:00:10 "because the studio can" so why can't the player do that as well? The creator said to take from the story what you want
1:02:19 "it's not where he is that is important, it's why he's there"
Well many players chose the forbidden lands over the romance, including me
The forbidden lands are much more interesting and mesmerizing tbh, I have spent so many hrs just exploring
1:03:30 same thing I say to you, it's a shame that we don't see things the same way
1:05:00 key to it all, most seekers were trying to find something no else had seen within the game, they wanted to find something a colossus/lore/models anything really, mostly a secret colossus
And nomad colossus achieved all of those things he found many unseen things by hacking the game
1:07:10 game wasn't enough, well that's what happens when you start many threads and only solved some of the main ones and leave the rest unresolved while accidentally/unintentionally starting hundreds more in the process
Leaving things incomplete will often make western fans fill in the gaps on their own if the author is unwilling to fill the gaps
1:09:10 it might not matter to you or the creator why things are the way that they are but as one of the secret seekers said, "whether or not it exists it does not matter. They have something to believe in and that's all they need"
They are just trying to make sense of the things they left in the game and since most things don't have explanation or were chosen just for aesthetics that left many fans trying to make outside sources fit within the game to explain it, some stuff is very interesting even if it wasn't intended by the creator and makes the game more meaningful
The creator set the foundation and then left the game incomplete and now the fan base is building something from the things that were left behind, i find a lot of the mythologies and info that the fanbase has added to the to be very amusing, it's like fanfic but using what was in the game as a base
That's where I think the problem lies, the fanbase is making it sound to be true as to the intentions of the creator when most of the time things in the game were left there to be vague and look cool, in reality a lot of the theories are very creative and thought out fanfic
I admire the dedication of the secret seekers because they reflect the mentality of the protagonist that refuses to take the simple answer and desperately looking for the truth that might or might not exist, in the case of sotc lore and mysteries the truth doesn't exist
Same thing happened with Evangelion, that's why you shouldn't use symbols and references carelessly or people might use them to interpret stuff that wasn't intended by you as the creator
The intended message of Evangelion is to try to live life and meet people even if you are afraid of getting hurt but it all gets obscured by the religious imagery
Same with sotc, the intended message is the desperation and dedication of a guy that betrayed everything he was taught becoming a monster to save the woman he loves he knew what would happen to him and still did it but again that all gets obscured by all the religious imagery
I find it hard to be sympathetic with both sotc and Evangelion creators, they know symbols and references are very important to other cultures but they just use it as decorations, i know the target audience was Japanese and that they thought nothing of the references but once it went to the west it was something much more meaningful because they used references the west would know
I think it's fine, that's just the dilemma that comes with going global
So as long as fans don't use their work to commit crimes against humanity or imply the author wanted to cause harm on humanity, it's fine
You can either join the fanbases or just ignore them
i only just played the game this last month. and been doing deep dives, and i think i most agree with your takes. this world breeds conspiracy by nature and its peoples natural reaction to look for more.
This is a masterpiece video!
Just picked up a physical of this for 25 bucks love this game
This is such good content and I love your voice, your channel is criminally small. id love to have you as a Va if you want some extra funds!
Your channel is way too underrated
I've come to pretty much the same conclusion. There is no deeper secret to the story.
I do really enjoy the theories and hunting for easter eggs tho. It's fun. I don't believe that most of the theories are true, but it's fun to imagine and pretend.
oh hell yeah i've been looking forward to this
I'm actually surprised that people have stuck with the 17th colossus thing for as long as they did. It really makes no narrative sense. If Dormin has been giving you hints this entire time to get you to free him, why would he hide a colossus from you?
Gaming in the early 2000's were way less understood and way more "ethereal" for people, a mix of innocence and the gap in knowledge creating stuff in people's mind. It's was the time were every game, factually or not, had a secret character or ending that demanded something hard or annoying to be unlocked. Me personally? before ever touching a GTA used to think all games were "open world" but you had to find a way to explore the area in some secret way, i used to think there were secret levels in the og Ben 10 game that would unlock the remaining alien transformations and i could go on all day.
Bit late but in games that are usually set around a number goal, eg 16 colossi there will always be people who will think there's an extra one that's hidden idk why this is but my guess is just that when you find something extra on top of what's numbered and given to you it seems like your own personal prize, for example for me it was in batman Arkham city, when that game came out I played it back to front non stop (still do) and I always wanted to find more villains that weren't in the game the main one being scarecrow because the game has you take down multiple villains some in the story and some as listed side missios, scarecrow was such a cool part of the first game (Arkham asylum) and has multiple Easter eggs hinting to him in Arkham city such as his hidden room inside a boat you can find hinting at his return and plan for the next game (Arkham knight) and 3 secret radio messages you can hear scarecrow read out where he says some numbers that correspond with the alphabet that give you phrases also hinting at the next game but that still wasn't enough for me I was convinced at the time these easter eggs where pointing to him being hidden in the game, so for 2 years id just be constantly going around the map everywhere looking for him, every nook of the map finding doors you couldn't open and thinking he might be there etc up until arkham knight was announced
@@ricardomiles2957 Lots of kids growing up in the 00s watching GTA Bigfoot videos or haunted Halo 3 map videos.
do you have any context version of this video?
Where are you? I hope you’re doing well.
I finished the game alot of times. I live the deep drama of it all 😂
While I personally really enjoy digging into every cranny of this game and and disagree with most of your takes, I really enjoyed these two videos! You present things well and I LOVE the Doll gimmick, new subscriber here!
Barely 15 minutes in and already there are so many logical leaps and unsupported assertions
could you provide some examples?
Which ones?
I am able to rethink my ways, but not if somebody just does the classic hit and run.
For a video that is a statement against players jumping to conclusions about this game you very consistently jump to a lot of conclusions with little or flawed reasoning.
You should play xenosaga the christan references will surprise you
Great job
Nice video
Hands down the best video on shadow of the colossus
This game is amazing but it's just a bit empty & Needs the 10 or 8 Cut Colossi
Finally!